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Any news on old Marines? ? ?

How do they fit in and will they even be in the codex?

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:

Short answer: Power levels. Each of those datasheets has a different one.

Read the Apocalypse datasheets for the Space Marine stuff. Somehow they manage to do it with very little issue there. I could get behind it if there were different abilities or the like, but most of it is Movement/Toughness/Save related: stuff that could be unit entry fodder.

You don't even need to go that far. In the regular Captain datasheet, you have the option to take a Jump pack, which adds PL.

You could easily condense the 5 or so Captian datasheets into just two:
1 for regular Capt, Biker & Jump pack. Just give the 2 statline, added PLs and Keyword for Biker & Jump.
Another datasheet for the Terminator/Cataphractii Capts.

But I think the way GW is going to go with this is to release a Primaris only Codex, have it and the regular Codices coexist for a while, then drop the old books with an edition change

-

Which is probably when I stop playing space marines. I don't like the primaris enough to build an army around them.

usmcmidn wrote:
Any news on old Marines? ? ?

How do they fit in and will they even be in the codex?

They will be in the codex and benefit of the new abilities.

From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

The primaris train is is not stopping any time soon and is choo- chooing full steam ahead, passengers including: some named characters being converted to primaris, a baby carrier dreadnaught (if it doesn't have a sarcophagus is it even a dreadnaught?) and a hover-rhino type thing called *drum- rollllllll* The Impulsor!! Because SM are just too cool for tracks.

Sourse:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/03/apocalypse-mega-battle-and-warhammer-40000-previewgw-homepage-post-1/

I think the SM are about to have all the news toys, all the new rules, and yet we will undoubtedly keep hearing how bad they are because they don't win 100% of the time.
Same old same old...

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

The primaris train is is not stopping any time soon and is choo- chooing full steam ahead, passengers including: some named characters being converted to primaris, a baby carrier dreadnaught (if it doesn't have a sarcophagus is it even a dreadnaught?) and a hover-rhino called *drum- rollllllll* The Impulsor!! Because SM are just too cool for tracks now days..

Sourse:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/03/apocalypse-mega-battle-and-warhammer-40000-previewgw-homepage-post-1/

No, it’s not a Dreadnought. It’s known as a “Warsuit.” It’s piloted by a Vanguard marine for vanguard operations, not being a heavy war brawler.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

The primaris train is is not stopping any time soon and is choo- chooing full steam ahead, passengers including: some named characters being converted to primaris, a baby carrier dreadnaught (if it doesn't have a sarcophagus is it even a dreadnaught?) and a hover-rhino called *drum- rollllllll* The Impulsor!! Because SM are just too cool for tracks now days..

Sourse:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/03/apocalypse-mega-battle-and-warhammer-40000-previewgw-homepage-post-1/

No, it’s not a Dreadnought. It’s known as a “Warsuit.” It’s piloted by a Vanguard marine for vanguard operations, not being a heavy war brawler.

SO its a dreadnaught called a war-suit.

Breton wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Because as soon as they hit the main codex, Phobos ceases to be a thing...?

Because as soon as they hit the main Codex being ALL Phobos ceases to be a thing. People were already mentioning that when Shadowspear came out and wondering how/if they would integrate that Libby into their Army.

Eliminators say hi. Suppressors would also say hi but they're not Phobos.

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

I think the read they intend is that all common/generic units will be in the main book, and special characters and signature units would be in the supplemental books.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

The primaris train is is not stopping any time soon and is choo- chooing full steam ahead, passengers including: some named characters being converted to primaris, a baby carrier dreadnaught (if it doesn't have a sarcophagus is it even a dreadnaught?) and a hover-rhino called *drum- rollllllll* The Impulsor!! Because SM are just too cool for tracks now days..

Sourse:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/03/apocalypse-mega-battle-and-warhammer-40000-previewgw-homepage-post-1/

No, it’s not a Dreadnought. It’s known as a “Warsuit.” It’s piloted by a Vanguard marine for vanguard operations, not being a heavy war brawler.

"Vanguard operations"... you mean deploy 3 on the edge of the enemy deployment zone and then charge T1?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

I think the read they intend is that all common/generic units will be in the main book, and special characters and signature units would be in the supplemental books.

Possibly. We will have to wait and see.

But according to the latter part of the article They shall know no fear, Bolter discipline will now be accompanied by "shock assault" giving all marine type units (chaos & GK included) +1 A on turn they charge or are charged.

"To suggest that an Imperial Fist and a White Scar fight in the same way is nearly heresy – and the new codex and codex supplements really lean into the distinct identities of each Chapter to ensure they work on the tabletop the way they do in the lore"

"That’s not even all – Codex: Space Marines also has extensive rules for Successor Chapter Tactics to support the creation of your own Chapter of Space Marines. Whether you’ve always had a particular theme in mind for your Chapter that you’d like to represent on the battlefield, or simply wish to enhance your favoured play style, you can be your own Chapter Master. Simply pick two Successor Tactics from the long list of awesome choices included in the codex and you’re good to go!"

Looks like the supplements will contain a bunch of extra snowflake rules on top the new "catch all ability"
I'm sure there will be huge outcry about more bloat. But hey, IOM is IOM no surprises there...

That being said, If black templars get a unique enough book and get some identity I might actually get some space marines...It looks like they are doing some re-structuring. WIll be very interesting to find out if they do this right or if it turns into a hot garbage mess. My money is on the latter because GWs books/rules have a certain way of ending up that way..

Also they finally doing another kill team starter set with a bunch of terrain. Lots of people have missed out on the first one.

Breton wrote:

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
My prediction for the future.

A lot more primaris, because it seems to me that GW is theming each wave after a single archetype of OG marines

Initial release of the Primaris where the Tactical Marines of the range, plus some odd models. New releases that where debut in Shadowspear are generally based around Scout archetype.

So, I think in the future we'll get similar scaled releases based around at least assault marines, devastators, bikes, terminators, and maybe librarians, what with that "Psychic Awakening" abound. Plus chapter specific stuff of course.

I don't think they're modeled after an archetype of OG marines, I think they're modeled after a combat role. I think they're trying to cover the chapter themes as well, so we got Intercessors(UM, IF) and Infiltrators (Raven Guard, Night Lords)

I think we will eventually get similar but not obvious/direct replacements for almost everything we already had. I think Aggressors are the Terminator replacements. I'm hoping we don't get Jet bikes, but we do get regular bikes, or some sort of other calvalry mount that works with Technical Space Marines. Maybe one of those giant wheel bike things from Robotech and General Grievous.

I think what they're rather doing is going with vague company theming, the inital wave release was a battle line release, focused around the units most commonly seen in a battlecompany. the vanguard release is basicly a 10th company focus. presumably wave 3 will be a "elite heavy" wave. designed around 1st company veterns

 Argive wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Argive wrote:
From what I can gather they will sell a Codex SM - Which will be "the best codex ever made ever" - GW which will allegedly cover all of the units for all of the chapters so that all you will ever need need..
But then they will sell individual codex supplements for all the relevant chapters so I'm not sure how accurate the first statement can be...

I think the read they intend is that all common/generic units will be in the main book, and special characters and signature units would be in the supplemental books.

Possibly. We will have to wait and see.

But according to the latter part of the article They shall know no fear, Bolter discipline will now be accompanied by "shock assault" giving all marine type units (chaos & GK included) +1 A on turn they charge or are charged.

"To suggest that an Imperial Fist and a White Scar fight in the same way is nearly heresy – and the new codex and codex supplements really lean into the distinct identities of each Chapter to ensure they work on the tabletop the way they do in the lore"

So I assume SW will have to get a new snowflake rule on top to be "unique". I guess what they mean is that the supplements will contain a bunch of extra snowflake rules on top the new "catch all ability".
I'm sure there will be huge outcry about more bloat. But hey, IOM is IOM...

That being said, If black templars get a unique enough book and get some identity I might actually get some space marines...

Also they finally doing another kill team starter set with a bunch of terrain. Lots of people have missed out on the first one.

I'm not sure if non-Codex chapters are actually going to get a supplement right now. Sounds to me like the overarching rule is "non-Codex chapters get Angels of Death and can use any datasheet in the codex (except GK?) but do otherwise not receive a supplement at this time".

Just realised there is an entire 14 page strong thread going full hyperbole about this

Nothings certain apart from extra attacks on the charge have dropped yet and people are already loosing their gak.

If my army got 20% of the new models and rules marines are getting this year id be chuffed!

@ Pandabeer - You might be right. It seems they are doing a bunch of re-structuring. We will have to give it until CA drops at the end of the year and sorts out the mess they are about to create before deciding if good or bad overall lol.

 Argive wrote:
Just realised there is an entire 14 page strong thread going full hyperbole about this

Dakka doing what it does best

I'm just kinda confused. So do i buy the codex or the other matine codex? What if i have two chapters?

 lolman1c wrote:
I'm just kinda confused. So do i buy the codex or the other matine codex? What if i have two chapters?

depends what you wanna play.

If you play your custom chapter and space wolves, your space wolves codex will suffice and you'l want codex space marines for it. if you play just space wolves you'll be able to get away with just space wolves, but you might want codex space marines as a stop gap so you have the data sheets for the vanguard Marines.
if you play space wolves and ultramarines you'll want the space wolves and space marines codex, and proably wanna snag the Ultramarines codex to maximize your options.

if you play whtie scars and ultramarines you CAN proably just buy the one codex but you'll likely want the addityional options in the supplements

 lolman1c wrote:
I'm just kinda confused. So do i buy the codex or the other matine codex? What if i have two chapters?

You buy the codex and each chapter supplement you need.

 Argive wrote:


SO its a dreadnaught called a war-suit.

Its a Sentinel called a warsuit. The pilot is almost as exposed as the Sister in a Penitent Engine and it's armed with a buncha stubbers and a heavy bolter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Because as soon as they hit the main codex, Phobos ceases to be a thing...?

Because as soon as they hit the main Codex being ALL Phobos ceases to be a thing. People were already mentioning that when Shadowspear came out and wondering how/if they would integrate that Libby into their Army.

Eliminators say hi. Suppressors would also say hi but they're not Phobos.

All Phobos ARMIES i.e. in the set every model was a Phobos. So every model was a viable Phobos Only Psychic Power target. Once they're in the main Dex, they're Phobos, Gravis, etc. and only a few are valid targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:


I'm not sure if non-Codex chapters are actually going to get a supplement right now. Sounds to me like the overarching rule is "non-Codex chapters get Angels of Death and can use any datasheet in the codex (except GK?) but do otherwise not receive a supplement at this time".

They will all but have to get their own supplement for special characters/units, psychic powers, stratagems, Chapter Tactics, and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
.

If my army got 20% of the new models and rules marines are getting this year id be chuffed!

I'd be more than happy to design several Reiver quality units for you, and see how chuffed you are. What army do you play? Do you want Hatred: Soup so you only hate the sub factions that don't make up the bulk of the opposition army, IF they even have any?

Not all of the units are bad. Few of the units have been good. It gets worse when the units are only half finished - missing options.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pandabeer wrote:


I'm not sure if non-Codex chapters are actually going to get a supplement right now. Sounds to me like the overarching rule is "non-Codex chapters get Angels of Death and can use any datasheet in the codex (except GK?) but do otherwise not receive a supplement at this time".

They will all but have to get their own supplement for special characters/units, psychic powers, stratagems, Chapter Tactics, and so on.

Breton wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's not going to be that huge. How big was the Codex Vanguard? 20 pages? 30? The previous codex was 410. You're going to add 6 data sheets, potentially 1 page of Warlord Traits, and potentially 1 page of Powers, 6ish pages of fluff a couple pages of pictures. Less than 20 pages, 10% of 410 is 41. I'm not even sure Obscruation and the Warlord Traits stick around. Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

Because as soon as they hit the main codex, Phobos ceases to be a thing...?

Because as soon as they hit the main Codex being ALL Phobos ceases to be a thing. People were already mentioning that when Shadowspear came out and wondering how/if they would integrate that Libby into their Army.

Eliminators say hi. Suppressors would also say hi but they're not Phobos.

All Phobos ARMIES i.e. in the set every model was a Phobos. So every model was a viable Phobos Only Psychic Power target. Once they're in the main Dex, they're Phobos, Gravis, etc. and only a few are valid targets.

Two things:

1) Everybody read the underlined bit as "all of the Phobos options go away" rather than "armies comprised entirely of Phobos go away". Poor phrasing is poor phrasing. Now that you've clarified what you meant, yes you're right. Nobody is going to play a fully Phobos army with the other options available. However...

2) Even within the boxed set no one was playing a full Phobos army because of the Suppressors, so psychic powers not working on the whole army was always an issue.

Pandabeer wrote:


No, because SW etc. have their own codex. The only thing this codex overrides for them is their basic rules (like them getting Angels of Death), their unit access (As it is written now they should get access to Centurions and stuff) and updated point costs if there are any compared to CA 2018. I think their current codici should actually be seen as thier current supplements (minus basic rules etc.).

That may be how it starts, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the Non-Codex chapters get a suplement before it's all said and done if not on release day. They'll update the SC/Unit datasheets as well. This much upheaval will justify a new book for UM/WS/etc, it'll justify one for the BA/DA/SW. And it's not going to be much work. A little tweaking, a little cut and paste from their previous Dex and they get an easy money book to sell that brings them into line with the Codex Marines, dovetails correctly/as designed with the core book, and doesn't push all the players into 30 pages of printouts for errata/updates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:


Two things:

1) Everybody read the underlined bit as "all of the Phobos options go away" rather than "armies comprised entirely of Phobos go away". Poor phrasing is poor phrasing. Now that you've clarified what you meant, yes you're right. Nobody is going to play a fully Phobos army with the other options available. However...

2) Even within the boxed set no one was playing a full Phobos army because of the Suppressors, so psychic powers not working on the whole army was always an issue.

Two things:

1) No not everybody read it that way, some people understood what I said as what I meant, and in fact replied with the same clarification before you posted your Says Hi - you just probably hadn't gotten far enough through the thread to see it.. Argumentum Ad Populum is Argumentum Ad Populum.

2) I missed Suppresors not being Phobos - they're even worse than I thought.

This actually makes sense with the apocalypse release too.

The datacards for SM does not include any special characters or unique units for any chapter or the special snow flake codexes. It's JUST the base SM units.

So now those units are available for everyone and they can release the special supplement card pack as an additional purchase!

Breton wrote:

The Newman wrote:


Two things:

1) Everybody read the underlined bit as "all of the Phobos options go away" rather than "armies comprised entirely of Phobos go away". Poor phrasing is poor phrasing. Now that you've clarified what you meant, yes you're right. Nobody is going to play a fully Phobos army with the other options available. However...

2) Even within the boxed set no one was playing a full Phobos army because of the Suppressors, so psychic powers not working on the whole army was always an issue.

Two things:

1) No not everybody read it that way, some people understood what I said as what I meant, and in fact replied with the same clarification before you posted your Says Hi - you just probably hadn't gotten far enough through the thread to see it.. Argumentum Ad Populum is Argumentum Ad Populum.

2) I missed Suppresors not being Phobos - they're even worse than I thought.

1) Nobody in this thread has responded to that underlined bit like they knew what you meant, but only one person in the thread has responded to that underlined bit at all. I'll cop to my own hyperbole there, but I stand by my doubt that anyone read that bit the way you meant it. (And again, not disagreeing with what you actually meant here.)

I also stand by the sentiment that the Phobos powers have a place in a more general Marine list and the Eliminators are most of the reason that they do.

2) We're going to have to agree to disagree on the Suppressors, they're the second best thing Marines got out of Shadow Spear after the new Warlord Traits.

The Newman wrote:


1) Nobody in this thread has responded to that underlined bit like they knew what you meant, but only one person in the thread has responded to that underlined bit at all. I'll cop to my own hyperbole there, but I stand by my doubt that anyone read that bit the way you meant it. (And again, not disagreeing with what you actually meant here.)

I also stand by the sentiment that the Phobos powers have a place in a more general Marine list and the Eliminators are most of the reason that they do.

2) We're going to have to agree to disagree on the Suppressors, they're the second best thing Marines got out of Shadow Spear after the new Warlord Traits.

BrianDavion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
Phobos only psychic powers in a Phobos starter set mini-game like Shadowspear kinda-sorta was works. As soon as they hit the main 'dex they kinda sorta don't.

What?

the buffs in the obscuration powerset only apply to marines with the phobos keyword

1) Brian got it.
1A) A one trick pony requiring somewhere around 20% or more of your Army, and not being nullified, to pull off doesn't really feel like a place.

2) Inceptors outperform them even before the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy, and after they had to make an all new and better Autocannon and including the overwatch rule Marines aren't going to care about because close combat is generally so bad in the whole game. Both the un-supercharged Plasma and the Autocannon have the same STR so vs T isn't going to change.
Vs T4 3+ Plasma Interceptors do 9.05 wounds per game. 24 shots (D3 Average x2 x6) 16 shots (3+ 67%) 10.77 wounds (3+/67%) 9.05 (84% after 3+ -3 6+ save)
vs T4 the Supressors do- (2 shots x 6 turns) 12 shots, 9 hits(67%), 6 wounding hits (67%), 8 wounds after 5+ (-2) saves and D Mods.

Now you could argue the Inceptors have shorter range and don't get to shoot every turn, but at 9 wounds to 8 wounds, even if they only shoot every other turn(unlikely with M12 Jump Packs), they're still doing more wounds, after I get my hypothetical situation that moving with a Heavy, having to jumppack dance around LOS blocking terrain the Suppressors aren't even doing 8 wounds anymore. 12 shots, 6 hits (50%) 4 wounding hits (67%) 5.36 with the -1.

And I still have overcharge and T5 in my Inceptor's back pocket

supressors have a range advantage though so they're less obvious targets, drop a squad of inceptors down and your gonna ahve them in your enemies face, he'll concentrate fire, supressors simply by virtue of their range are less likely to be focused, it's a matter of how we're wired to react

Breton wrote:


1) Brian got it.
1A) A one trick pony requiring somewhere around 20% or more of your Army, and not being nullified, to pull off doesn't really feel like a place.

2) Inceptors outperform them even before the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy, and after they had to make an all new and better Autocannon and including the overwatch rule Marines aren't going to care about because close combat is generally so bad in the whole game. Both the un-supercharged Plasma and the Autocannon have the same STR so vs T isn't going to change.
Vs T4 3+ Plasma Interceptors do 9.05 wounds per game. 24 shots (D3 Average x2 x6) 16 shots (3+ 67%) 10.77 wounds (3+/67%) 9.05 (84% after 3+ -3 6+ save)
vs T4 the Supressors do- (2 shots x 6 turns) 12 shots, 9 hits(67%), 6 wounding hits (67%), 8 wounds after 5+ (-2) saves and D Mods.

Now you could argue the Inceptors have shorter range and don't get to shoot every turn, but at 9 wounds to 8 wounds, even if they only shoot every other turn(unlikely with M12 Jump Packs), they're still doing more wounds, after I get my hypothetical situation that moving with a Heavy, having to jumppack dance around LOS blocking terrain the Suppressors aren't even doing 8 wounds anymore. 12 shots, 6 hits (50%) 4 wounding hits (67%) 5.36 with the -1.

And I still have overcharge and T5 in my Inceptor's back pocket

Combat is not so bad in the whole game. Close Combat is really strong. However, the Marines lack really good combat units, to capitalize on it, and anything I'd like to suppress the overwatch of before charging it is generally something that's a single model anyway or isn't likely to take any casualties to the Suppressors.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Combat is not so bad in the whole game. Close Combat is really strong. However, the Marines lack really good combat units, to capitalize on it, and anything I'd like to suppress the overwatch of before charging it is generally something that's a single model anyway or isn't likely to take any casualties to the Suppressors.

Yeah it is bad. Most armies lack really good basic close combat units. Very few Fight units have the volume of attacks, and armor save mods to compare to their shooting. Shooting units can shoot more often than fighting units can fight. They need a higher number of attacks than the shooting units have shots to make up for that. They don't. Most close combat centric units have 2 Attacks a bonus attack for a chainsword/combatknife/equivalent at Base Strength, and 0 Save Mod every other to 2 turns out of three. While their shooty brethren shoot twice at base strength or a little higher with a -1 save mod. Even at 2 turns out of three 6 -0 Attacks is not as good as 6 -1 shots. The game used to have bonus attacks for two CCW's, and charging to make up the shortfall of a regroup before re-charging turn. The new Marine rule... what's it called. It's just them putting the +1A for charging back into the game reworded to work with Characters that Heroically Intervene instead of Charging.

you also get it if you are charged. so effectively what it means is +1 attack in the first round of combat

BrianDavion wrote:
you also get it if you are charged. so effectively what it means is +1 attack in the first round of combat

But you still don't for two CCW's i.e. a pistol and a sword.

Breton wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Combat is not so bad in the whole game. Close Combat is really strong. However, the Marines lack really good combat units, to capitalize on it, and anything I'd like to suppress the overwatch of before charging it is generally something that's a single model anyway or isn't likely to take any casualties to the Suppressors.

Yeah it is bad. Most armies lack really good basic close combat units. Very few Fight units have the volume of attacks, and armor save mods to compare to their shooting. Shooting units can shoot more often than fighting units can fight. They need a higher number of attacks than the shooting units have shots to make up for that. They don't. Most close combat centric units have 2 Attacks a bonus attack for a chainsword/combatknife/equivalent at Base Strength, and 0 Save Mod every other to 2 turns out of three. While their shooty brethren shoot twice at base strength or a little higher with a -1 save mod. Even at 2 turns out of three 6 -0 Attacks is not as good as 6 -1 shots. The game used to have bonus attacks for two CCW's, and charging to make up the shortfall of a regroup before re-charging turn. The new Marine rule... what's it called. It's just them putting the +1A for charging back into the game reworded to work with Characters that Heroically Intervene instead of Charging.

I think you're playing a whole different game. Close combat units, and even units that aren't close combat units but are cheap and fast, offer really good control of the board and zoning, and a target that must be serviced. In addition, if they touch something like a tank or a gun team, they usually have made themselves worthwhile. It's cheap and easy suppression if Guardsmen run up to try to punch a Land Raider. Real close combat units with lots of attacks that can charge a line, mulch through it, and then consolidate into the next are definitely really good [Boyz, Genestealers].

And the whole falling back thing isn't usually a problem, you can take prisoners really easily so you're hard to shoot at [or they're really counting on a morale failure] and the movement you can do can be use to loop a ton of units in melee until your heavy hitters get into position. The only things that aren't super vulnerable to CQC are super heavies.