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Post by: Galef
So this has been discussed in the many, many other threads sparked from the announcement of the new Marine Codex + Supplements, but since the rule is going to apply to over half the armies available in 40K (All Astates; Adeptus & Hereticus) I think it merits its own thread.
Quick summary: the rule gives +1Atk if the unit charges, is charged or performs a Heroic Intervention.
Personally, I think this is a good contrast to Bolter Discipline as it encourages melee, rather than discourage it (like BD unfortunately does)
I also like that this rule gives a melee bonus to so many armies as it makes melee a bit more appealing, which is always good to counter balance shooting.
Although I don't except this change to upheave the shooting meta by any stretch, it at least is something.
While this is a damage output bonus for Marines that much needed it, I can also see this as a downside to their durability as well. Marines vs Marines are going to die even faster now, make what you will of that.
GKs will certainly get boosted by this rule more than other Astartes due to every model being required to have a melee weapon. Every bit helps
Odd side effect I've noticed: If this applies to Heretic Astartes keyword, Cultists and Pox Walkers will also get this bonus. Not sure how I feel about that
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Post by: Pandabeer
 Galef wrote:So this has been discussed in the many, many other threads sparked from the announcement of the new Marine Codex + Supplements, but since the rule is going to apply to over half the armies available in 40K (All Astates; Adeptus & Hereticus) I think it merits its own thread.
Quick summary: the rule gives +1Atk if the unit charges, is charged or performs a Heroic Intervention.
Personally, I think this is a good contrast to Bolter Discipline as it encourages melee, rather than discourage it (like BD unfortunately does)
I also like that this rule gives a melee bonus to so many armies as it makes melee a bit more appealing, which is always good to counter balance shooting.
Although I don't except this change to upheave the shooting meta by any stretch, it at least is something.
While this is a damage output bonus for Marines that much needed it, I can also see this as a downside to their durability as well. Marines vs Marines are going to die even faster now, make what you will of that.
GKs will certainly get boosted by this rule more than other Astartes due to every model being required to have a melee weapon. Every bit helps
Odd side effect I've noticed: If this applies to Heretic Astartes keyword, Cultists and Pox Walkers will also get this bonus. Not sure how I feel about that
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Berzerkers will get even more blendy with this rule  And Thunderwolf Cavalry finally seems viable for at least casual games. Space Wolves in general like it a lot as well because of thier +1 to hit on the charge.
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Post by: Fifty
Hopefully they'll have thought of the cultists/poxwalkers issue and avoid it.
Overall, I like the rule a lot. I am about to switch back to my Lamenters for a slow-grow, and it will help me immensely, as I was already planning a (possibly foolish) melee focus.
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Post by: Quasistellar
Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.
Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!
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Post by: Martel732
Quasistellar wrote:Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.
Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!
I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.
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Post by: Crimson
Martel732 wrote:
I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.
The fix for the durability issue would be GW properly pricing the multi-damage weapons so that the Primaris would actually feel tougher as intended.
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Post by: Sterling191
Tzaangors with even more attacks you say?
But seriously, Cultists already have baked in exceptions to Astartes boosts. Id be highly surprised if that didnt roll out to other non-Astartes units in Chaos books.
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Post by: Martel732
 Crimson wrote:Martel732 wrote:
I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.
The fix for the durability issue would be GW properly pricing the multi-damage weapons so that the Primaris would actually feel tougher as intended.
That's one possibility. But I feel that most multidamage weapons, specifically low shot, high AP, are already gimped pretty badly. It's a bit of a mess, really. Dissy cannons don't feel that strong vs demons or IG or Orks. Only marines.
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Post by: Spoletta
Martel732 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes. Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!
I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.
It actually does improve durability in a way, since it could make transports potentially useful. There is a breaking point where those 10 assault marines in a rhino actually become dangerous enough that purchasing a transport is a good investment. Remember that the biggest complain about SM transports is not that they are bad, but that there is nothing good to put in those. Could this change actually lead to transports becoming a meaningful choice? Time will tell.
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Post by: Insectum7
I like what it does for Terminators.
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Post by: Martel732
Spoletta wrote:Martel732 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.
Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!
I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.
It actually does improve durability in a way, since it could make transports potentially useful. There is a breaking point where those 10 assault marines in a rhino actually become dangerous enough that purchasing a transport is a good investment.
Remember that the biggest complain about SM transports is not that they are bad, but that there is nothing good to put in those.
Could this change actually lead to transports becoming a meaningful choice? Time will tell.
Maybe. I'm really concerned about how much this rule will really change, since lists can always soak assaults on their chaff screens. Just like they do already with berserkers and BA and the like. Melee units really need to hang around to be effective like grots, bulls, wraiths. It doesn't matter how hard my DC punch the chaff, because they are gone next turn.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Crimson wrote:Martel732 wrote:
I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.
The fix for the durability issue would be GW properly pricing the multi-damage weapons so that the Primaris would actually feel tougher as intended.
That's just an issue with D2 being available in droves. Even a slight cut back on that would be fine for that. I mean, as is, Disintegrators do more damage to tanks than Dark Lance's for crying out loud. Making them D1 fixes that completely.
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Post by: Martel732
Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.
Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.
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Post by: Spoletta
This depends on how much the unit you use to punch the chaff costs. If you punch a discardable chaff with an expensive unit, exposing it at the same time, then you were correctly countered.
If you instead punch that chaff with something that is less expensive, opening the way for the good stuff to hit the good targets...
10 BA assault marines can delete a lot of stuff on the charge now. By correctly assigning the attacks, it is quite easy to remove 2 squads of infantry without auras or buffs. That's quite the return for those 130 points.
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Post by: Martel732
Spoletta wrote:This depends on how much the unit you use to punch the chaff costs. If you punch a discardable chaff with an expensive unit, exposing it at the same time, then you were correctly countered.
If you instead punch that chaff with something that is less expensive, opening the way for the good stuff to hit the good targets...
10 BA assault marines can delete a lot of stuff on the charge now. By correctly assigning the attacks, it is quite easy to remove 2 squads of infantry without auras or buffs. That's quite the return for those 130 points.
This approach just never seems to work out in practice. It's fantastic on paper, but it's almost always easier just to shoot the good stuff. Also, depends if those infantry are guardsmen or plaguebearers.
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Post by: Spoletta
Depending on the cost of the new transport, BA reivers could be really scary. Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote:Spoletta wrote:This depends on how much the unit you use to punch the chaff costs. If you punch a discardable chaff with an expensive unit, exposing it at the same time, then you were correctly countered.
If you instead punch that chaff with something that is less expensive, opening the way for the good stuff to hit the good targets...
10 BA assault marines can delete a lot of stuff on the charge now. By correctly assigning the attacks, it is quite easy to remove 2 squads of infantry without auras or buffs. That's quite the return for those 130 points.
This approach just never seems to work out in practice. It's fantastic on paper, but it's almost always easier just to shoot the good stuff. Also, depends if those infantry are guardsmen or plaguebearers.
Yeah sure, but nothing changed there. Instead melee got a huge boost, so we are now discussing if new options opened.
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Post by: Martel732
I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point. I'll take it, but I can already throw a ton of punches to no effect because of chaff and fall back mechanics.
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Post by: Lance845
Martel732 wrote:I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point.
I am semi in the same boat.
I don't think it would be good to turn off fall back. But I am curious how big of a boost it will turn out to be.
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Post by: Grimskul
Martel732 wrote:I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point.
That would undoubtedly be way too strong as a faction wide rule thing, that as a rule only exists on very specific models like Fiends and Wyches, the former being very easy to gun down if you don't have LoS blocking terrain and being unable to affect units with FLY, while the latter forces you to have a roll-off before deciding if you can Fall Back or not. It also relegates Marines to effectively tarpitting with the majority of their units, which doesn't exactly match their role as a shock assault army.
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Post by: Martel732
So many flying shooting units; preventing their fall back is critical, and right now, its impossible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:Martel732 wrote:I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point.
That would undoubtedly be way too strong as a faction wide rule thing, that as a rule only exists on very specific models like Fiends and Wyches, the former being very easy to gun down if you don't have LoS blocking terrain and being unable to affect units with FLY, while the latter forces you to have a roll-off before deciding if you can Fall Back or not. It also relegates Marines to effectively tarpitting with the majority of their units, which doesn't exactly match their role as a shock assault army.
You can't be shock anything if you are dead. And fall back is making them dead. I agree that it won't happen. I'm skeptical that it would be too strong.
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Post by: Galef
Martel732 wrote:I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point. I'll take it, but I can already throw a ton of punches to no effect because of chaff and fall back mechanics.
Arguably though, by having more S4 punches, there is less to fall back. But to me, that's not the main appeal with Shock Assault. The real appeal is that Squad leader melee weapons and dedicated melee units are now somewhat viable, opening up far more options than before -
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Post by: Martel732
You think giving a VV sergeant 4 swings with a hammer instead of 3 is relevant when power armor is being scooped with a croupier stick every turn? I can juice my squads with extra swings already, and it hasn't make a lick of difference in outcomes.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Martel732 wrote:Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.
Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.
Those are all W3 though.
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Post by: Martel732
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Martel732 wrote:Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.
Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.
Those are all W3 though.
I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.
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Post by: Gitdakka
I think this rule buffs units with low attacks the most. Sure units like death company can blend their foe even more and gets some reliability, but can they really use that?
However units like tac-marines with hidden power fists, or terminators can suddenly actually do something. This brings them from paper weights to actually impactfull.
My point is good units already kill their targets. Bad ones can now do something too.
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Post by: Galef
Martel732 wrote:You think giving a VV sergeant 4 swings with a hammer instead of 3 is relevant when power armor is being scooped with a croupier stick every turn? I can juice my squads with extra swings already, and it hasn't make a lick of difference in outcomes.
Which is 100% a durability issue, which Shock assault isn't going to fix at all.
But getting ~25-33% more attacks per model on your entire army, can help if you use it correctly. Nothing meta shifting, but can turn a close lose into a win
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Post by: Martel732
My point is that DC can blend targets and still aren't good. Maybe cheaper units getting that ability will be more useful. I don't know. Automatically Appended Next Post: Galef wrote:Martel732 wrote:You think giving a VV sergeant 4 swings with a hammer instead of 3 is relevant when power armor is being scooped with a croupier stick every turn? I can juice my squads with extra swings already, and it hasn't make a lick of difference in outcomes.
Which is 100% a durability issue, which Shock assault isn't going to fix at all.
But getting ~25-33% more attacks per model on your entire army, can help if you use it correctly. Nothing meta shifting, but can turn a close lose into a win
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As I said, I'll take it, but it makes me think GW doesn't actually understand what is going wrong.
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Post by: Reemule
I'm curious if the Might of Hero's psykic power is going to remain unchanged.
Having the ability to add 2 atk to someone about to charge is powerful. Gman with 8 attacks....
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Post by: chimeara
So now my WE possessed are D3+2 attacks on a charge. I like it.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Martel732 wrote:You think giving a VV sergeant 4 swings with a hammer instead of 3 is relevant when power armor is being scooped with a croupier stick every turn? I can juice my squads with extra swings already, and it hasn't make a lick of difference in outcomes.
First, as an aside, can we kick out the "Tzaangors and other models get this" comments? It said Heretic Astartes not HERETIC ASTARTES. This is the same stupid crap we went through with Sisters. It's a rule for MARINES.
As for this point : it doesn't hurt, does it?
I also find that saying an increase to your attacks won't make a difference seems a bit silly. Marines have been panned for low base attacks for a while now. BA VV with dual CS are dropping 5 attacks with this and if they have a LT nearby they practically auto-wound T3 models. Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote:
As I said, I'll take it, but it makes me think GW doesn't actually understand what is going wrong.
I think maybe you're valuing the wrong things? DoA doesn't have to be only for smash captains. Rhinos are not just a point sink.
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Post by: Martel732
I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.
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Post by: Imateria
Martel732 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Martel732 wrote:Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.
Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.
Those are all W3 though.
I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.
For this specific example it would certainly help Primaris infantry against Drukhari, but thats because you've effectively nerfed Drukhari against everything. As has been pointed out by everyobody with the Cultist price increase to 5ppm, making your best choice worse doesn't make the bad choices better, it just makes you worse all round. Dark Lances are spectacular against T7, 3+ armour vehicles (so most Marine vehicles but things like Hammerheads and Fire Prisms as well) but get considerably worse when you bump up to T8 and worse still with invulns added in, to the point where they're just not worth taking. Every so often I'll run my Ravagers with tripple Dark Lances, just because I want my anti-armour gun boats to feel like they have proper anti-tank guns, but they always underperform and feel closer to a liability than anything else.
I wouldn't be completely against Dissintegrators going down to D1, but they'd need to be cheaper as you've just halved the damage output of your dedicated gunboat from 18 to 9, and it would require a corresponding buff to Dark Lances, Dark Scythes, Void Lances and Heat Lances so that they are actually usable against Knights and the like.
Grotesques have 4W btw, and poison and Shredders can be rather effective against them, same goes for Wraiths and Bullgryns, though you need to kill the Pyschic support for those first.
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Post by: Galef
 Daedalus81 wrote:First, as an aside, can we kick out the "Tzaangors and other models get this" comments? It said Heretic Astartes not HERETIC ASTARTES. This is the same stupid crap we went through with Sisters. It's a rule for MARINES.
Agree it should just be for the Marines, but the issue with Sisters/Guard not getting BD was resolved by them not having the Keyword. Cultists/Poxwalkers/Tzaangors DO have the keyword that Shock Assault will be granted for. So in order to not grant it to those units, it needs to be specifically excluded from them
Or not. They're just chaff after all. Tzaangor bomb is really the strong assault combo
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Post by: Xenomancers
Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.
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Post by: Insectum7
Salamanders units with hidden Thunder Hammers get pretty nasty.
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Post by: Bharring
I don't think it's a meta-changer. I don't think it'll be the focal point of lists. But I do think it's a great change.
It's not going to make anything Loyalist suddenly amazing.
Assault Marines just went from straight-out-trash to mostly-useless - quite a big jump.
But the big change will be incidentals. That Tac squad that just shot up your chaff is going to charge - and now it does twice as much as it used to do. Which means higher chances of mopping up cleanly. It won't make them into CC units, but the extra attacks will add some weight.
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Post by: ERJAK
Quasistellar wrote:Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.
Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!
It's not tied to the astartes keyword, it's part of the 'angels of death' rule marines have. Same with Bolter discipline and they shall know no fear. Automatically Appended Next Post: Galef wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:First, as an aside, can we kick out the "Tzaangors and other models get this" comments? It said Heretic Astartes not HERETIC ASTARTES. This is the same stupid crap we went through with Sisters. It's a rule for MARINES.
Agree it should just be for the Marines, but the issue with Sisters/Guard not getting BD was resolved by them not having the Keyword. Cultists/Poxwalkers/Tzaangors DO have the keyword that Shock Assault will be granted for. So in order to not grant it to those units, it needs to be specifically excluded from them
Or not. They're just chaff after all. Tzaangor bomb is really the strong assault combo
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Like I said, it's not tied to the keyword. It's tied to each faction's 'umbrella' rule that is on their datasheets.
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Post by: Bharring
Note that the faction 'umbrella' rules are usually not on *every* unit in the book. So maybe they were smart about it's application? We won't know until the book's available (leak or otherwise).
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Post by: Daedalus81
Galef wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:First, as an aside, can we kick out the "Tzaangors and other models get this" comments? It said Heretic Astartes not HERETIC ASTARTES. This is the same stupid crap we went through with Sisters. It's a rule for MARINES.
Agree it should just be for the Marines, but the issue with Sisters/Guard not getting BD was resolved by them not having the Keyword. Cultists/Poxwalkers/Tzaangors DO have the keyword that Shock Assault will be granted for. So in order to not grant it to those units, it needs to be specifically excluded from them
Or not. They're just chaff after all. Tzaangor bomb is really the strong assault combo
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The rules makes zero reference to keywords.
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Post by: Kanluwen
They said the rule is called "Angels of Death". We already saw it on one of the promo models that got shown off this year. To help facilitate this on the tabletop, the universal traits of the Space Marines have been combined into a new catch-all ability called Angels of Death, which incorporates the usual suspects – And They Shall Know No Fear and Bolter Discipline – as well as this cheeky little number…
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Post by: Daedalus81
Martel732 wrote:I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.
If you're hitting Bulls with Thunderhammers and you get 50% more swings you're going to kill 50% more than you did previously.
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Post by: Reemule
 Xenomancers wrote:Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.
Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.
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Post by: Quasistellar
@Daedalus : True, it doesn’t. We’ll burn that bridge when we get to it, lol.
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Post by: Martel732
Daedalus81 wrote:Martel732 wrote:I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.
If you're hitting Bulls with Thunderhammers and you get 50% more swings you're going to kill 50% more than you did previously.
50% of a tiny number is still tiny. Thats the problem. Good units wont care about this, and marines melt when the enemy counters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reemule wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.
Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.
I'd say they rarely make it. Even the much-maligned lance cuts them to ribbons. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.
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Post by: Reemule
Martel732 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reemule wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.
Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.
I'd say they rarely make it. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.
I would agree rarely is a better description. But then it further goes to invalidate his post, as even rarely used abilities have some cost.
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Post by: Elbows
So where does this leave CSM? They don't have a rule for marine-only units like the normal Marines do. Since Angels of Death is loyalist marines, they'd have trouble finding a way to turn it on for CSM (and their various branches).
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Post by: Martel732
Do they need it? They have a considerably better win rate atm.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 Elbows wrote:So where does this leave CSM? They don't have a rule for marine-only units like the normal Marines do. Since Angels of Death is loyalist marines, they'd have trouble finding a way to turn it on for CSM (and their various branches).
Not really.
"Does it have Marine in the name? Then it gets Angels of Death!"
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Post by: Apple Peel
Martel732 wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:Martel732 wrote:I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.
If you're hitting Bulls with Thunderhammers and you get 50% more swings you're going to kill 50% more than you did previously.
50% of a tiny number is still tiny. Thats the problem. Good units wont care about this, and marines melt when the enemy counters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reemule wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.
Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.
I'd say they rarely make it. Even the much-maligned lance cuts them to ribbons. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.
Remember how we talked about the triple repulsor double redemptor BA list that did really well? I don’t remember if I told you exactly how it operated, but the kitted the repulsors protected by intercessors drew most of the enemy’s fire while redemptors and a smash captain did big melee on enemy knights.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Reemule wrote:Martel732 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reemule wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.
Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.
I'd say they rarely make it. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.
I would agree rarely is a better description. But then it further goes to invalidate his post, as even rarely used abilities have some cost.
Did anyone read what I said and think it literally never happens or that it can't happen? Jezz dude. Mine have made it a few times and at that point it was just being thrown out to maybe explode for d6 mortal wounds. The problem with the unit is that is is not equipt to make CC - it's to slow. The value of it's CC stats are pretty low - you could literally double them and it doesn't make the dread much better.
Most marine units are like that. Slow. Slow and CC doesn't work. Marines need druability or more speed - not more cc attacks. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Apple Peel wrote:Martel732 wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:Martel732 wrote:I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.
If you're hitting Bulls with Thunderhammers and you get 50% more swings you're going to kill 50% more than you did previously.
50% of a tiny number is still tiny. Thats the problem. Good units wont care about this, and marines melt when the enemy counters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reemule wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.
Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.
I'd say they rarely make it. Even the much-maligned lance cuts them to ribbons. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.
Remember how we talked about the triple repulsor double redemptor BA list that did really well? I don’t remember if I told you exactly how it operated, but the kitted the repulsors protected by intercessors drew most of the enemy’s fire while redemptors and a smash captain did big melee on enemy knights.
I've been doing tripple redemptor a lot. They still don't make CC much. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not really when they are hitting on 4's - though it is likely we are getting compeltely redeisned chapter tactics. From the sounds of it most chapter tactics will be a 2 parter and they are making custom chapter tactics for custom chapters to be legal in mathed play.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
 Imateria wrote:Martel732 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Martel732 wrote:Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.
Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.
Those are all W3 though.
I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.
For this specific example it would certainly help Primaris infantry against Drukhari, but thats because you've effectively nerfed Drukhari against everything. As has been pointed out by everyobody with the Cultist price increase to 5ppm, making your best choice worse doesn't make the bad choices better, it just makes you worse all round. Dark Lances are spectacular against T7, 3+ armour vehicles (so most Marine vehicles but things like Hammerheads and Fire Prisms as well) but get considerably worse when you bump up to T8 and worse still with invulns added in, to the point where they're just not worth taking. Every so often I'll run my Ravagers with tripple Dark Lances, just because I want my anti-armour gun boats to feel like they have proper anti-tank guns, but they always underperform and feel closer to a liability than anything else.
I wouldn't be completely against Dissintegrators going down to D1, but they'd need to be cheaper as you've just halved the damage output of your dedicated gunboat from 18 to 9, and it would require a corresponding buff to Dark Lances, Dark Scythes, Void Lances and Heat Lances so that they are actually usable against Knights and the like.
Grotesques have 4W btw, and poison and Shredders can be rather effective against them, same goes for Wraiths and Bullgryns, though you need to kill the Pyschic support for those first.
Disintegrators don't deserve a point cut going to D1. That's one of the most absurd things I've ever read.
29836
Post by: Elbows
 Kanluwen wrote: Elbows wrote:So where does this leave CSM? They don't have a rule for marine-only units like the normal Marines do. Since Angels of Death is loyalist marines, they'd have trouble finding a way to turn it on for CSM (and their various branches).
Not really.
"Does it have Marine in the name? Then it gets Angels of Death!"
But then you'd be giving "they shall know no fear" to CSM units, etc. I will chuckle though if CSM magically don't get it.
113112
Post by: Reemule
Xenomancers wrote:
Did anyone read what I said and think it literally never happens or that it can't happen? Jezz dude. .
Yeah. Your constant spin job to try to make a point when one doesn't exist devalues your posts. Please stop it. Your better than that. Lay out the facts clearly, then make your observations. It will go much better for you.
20901
Post by: Luke_Prowler
I posted some math in the News & Rumors thread, reposting here
 Luke_Prowler wrote:endlesswaltz123 wrote:Shock assault is very interesting. Though there are few, there are a couple of very potent melee units across both loyal and chaos, they have just become even more deadly.
A big death company unit can all of a sudden give ork boys a run for their money in terms of number of attacks.
Even a basic assault squad now has the potential to trade even with other melee equipped units. A full squad of 10 assault marines with jump packs gets you 22 ork slugga boyz. Since the AM will have the movement to get in without risk of getting shot with sluggers, they can down (on average) 1.85 boyz with their pistols (10*2/3*1/2*5/6), and then charge. They get overwatched against 20 sluggas (20*1/6*1/2* for .65 wounds on the marines. (we're rounding up for the sake of simplicity). Since the boy mob still has 20 models in it the ork player might be tempted to use counter attack to save the squad, but that's 2 CP being used to do that and orks lists are very CP hungry. Going first, the AM kill 7.78 orks (28*2/3*1/3*5/6), then the orks attacks for 4.26 dead marines. In total, that's 9.63 (10) dead boyz for 70 points vs 4.91 (5) dead marines for 80 points. This is still a trade down, but it's much better that they would have done previously against a unit that's generally considered a much heavier melee unit. And if there isn't a larger mob around to benefit from Mob Rule, another 1.7 gets lost to fleeing and now that's 11.33 (11) lost for 77 vs 80 trade off. Against something much lighter (shoota boyz, tau strike teams, guardsmen) or more expensive with worse melee (Necron warriors, sisters of battle, other space marines) and you're looking much better. And this is one of the worse choices in the codex.
Assuming no other buffs, Marine assault units are much more useful and Maine ranged units can threaten lighter units that get too close. If they do make Chapter Tactics better, or if there is other price drops, there could be a lot of hidden gems in this new codex.
However, to add some more points to the discussion. Terminators actually have as many attacks in melee as meganobz, which is rough already considering the power klaw costs more. For all the complaining about other inv saves on vehicles, hamminators are looking very threatening for being able to crush other people's elite units. Getting off that charge means less attacks back, and with less attacks the less likely that critical one gets through
Meanwhile, the math I did was for Assault Squads. For VV? for two points more you get two extra attacks with dual chainsword. that's going from roughly trading with choppa boyz to winning the combat (14 dead orks on the charge, 4 dead VV back, 96 vs 72 points. 6.5 orks flee without a back up unit nearby and that's 3-4 boys and a nob wondering what the heck just happened and about to lose in the next fight phase.
Unfortunately, I actually question if this would actually result in more assault units being taken. While units like Assault Squads, Vanguards, and Terminators would benefit, Marine players seem melee-phobic even at the best of times.
97136
Post by: Tibs Ironblood
I really like this new rule. The extra attack will go a long way in buffing their offensive output. Intercessors get 50% more attacks which is great for example. It's even better though on actual melee units like dreadnoughts and characters who will benefit a lot from an additional beefy attack. Primaris sergeants with power fists are in fashion even doubly so veteran ones if you have the CPs for it. A really scary one would be a veteran intercessor power fist salamander sergeant. Five attacks on the first round of combat re-rolling 1 hit and 1 wound. That's no joke.
35310
Post by: the_scotsman
Well, my Deathwatch is really happy. We have army-wide Stormshield and 2+ save access too, so it's not like my marines have ever felt particularly not durable.
I just get to feel better about using HThs like the dingus I am. I use so many of those totally not worth it suckers lol.
40509
Post by: G00fySmiley
I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing. I rarely play my marines since I am still giddy abotu my orks but plan to try the new iron hands rules for my SM army and am lookign forward to them.
the extra attack I am already seeing as a big step. often I would hit a screen and they coudl just fall back 2-3 surviving models and shift thigns back. knocking out screens in full shoudl help my blue tide army do better. (I run basically a maxed list of as many power armor bodies as i can pull off often pure tac marines, not optimized tournament level but I find it fun, ad people usually do not expect it.)
105713
Post by: Insectum7
 G00fySmiley wrote:I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.
Right? I think it's great.
Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.
84364
Post by: pm713
Feels like it doesn't do anything to stop cheese lists smashing marines but it hurts me to be honest. Maybe I'm just out of date on the competitive builds.
105713
Post by: Insectum7
pm713 wrote:Feels like it doesn't do anything to stop cheese lists smashing marines but it hurts me to be honest. Maybe I'm just out of date on the competitive builds.
Heh, it's GWs response to everyone comparing SM vs. Guard, even though that's not really a hardship in the competetive sense.
40509
Post by: G00fySmiley
 Insectum7 wrote: G00fySmiley wrote:I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.
Right? I think it's great.
Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.
yea. i think the marines are immune to morale should have stayed just plain... will not run. it was I believe a large factor in thier points cost that did not get accounted for in 8th. I hope more buffs are present to make your basic tac squad and by extention the full codex stronger and not just for the primaris
71534
Post by: Bharring
G00fySmiley wrote: Insectum7 wrote: G00fySmiley wrote:I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.
Right? I think it's great.
Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.
yea. i think the marines are immune to morale should have stayed just plain... will not run. it was I believe a large factor in thier points cost that did not get accounted for in 8th. I hope more buffs are present to make your basic tac squad and by extention the full codex stronger and not just for the primaris
"[...] at no cost [...]"
Yet to be seen. Tacs could be 15ppm in the new book! 
35310
Post by: the_scotsman
G00fySmiley wrote: Insectum7 wrote: G00fySmiley wrote:I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.
Right? I think it's great.
Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.
yea. i think the marines are immune to morale should have stayed just plain... will not run. it was I believe a large factor in thier points cost that did not get accounted for in 8th. I hope more buffs are present to make your basic tac squad and by extention the full codex stronger and not just for the primaris
With marines or "Marines Plus 1" armies like Custodes (Cue 60 "um, ACKSHULLY" posts..) making up approximatly 60% of the game, 40k can either have a morale system that matters at all, or it can not, but editions where morale exists and marines are immune, morale quickly becomes something that comes up once every 20 games when you play the one guy in the club who plays Tau.
Then he rolls some dice for his single unit of Fire Warriors he took alongside his 16 obviously morale-immune Riptides proxied with Gundams and you go
"hey, what are you doing?"
"A leadership test. They run away."
"So what happens now?"
"I have no idea. Looks like we need Volume 12 of the rulebook."
As soon as Marines are immune to morale, well then Necrons should be! They're soulless robots! And obviously tyranids should be, they're mindless bugs! And clearly GSC should be, they're brainwashed cultists! And sisters should be, they're crazed zealots! And Daemons should be, they're warp-spawned monsters!
etc, etc, etc for every faction because everyone thinks Their Guys Are Cool and Would Never Run.
98904
Post by: Imateria
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Imateria wrote:Martel732 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Martel732 wrote:Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.
Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.
Those are all W3 though.
I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.
For this specific example it would certainly help Primaris infantry against Drukhari, but thats because you've effectively nerfed Drukhari against everything. As has been pointed out by everyobody with the Cultist price increase to 5ppm, making your best choice worse doesn't make the bad choices better, it just makes you worse all round. Dark Lances are spectacular against T7, 3+ armour vehicles (so most Marine vehicles but things like Hammerheads and Fire Prisms as well) but get considerably worse when you bump up to T8 and worse still with invulns added in, to the point where they're just not worth taking. Every so often I'll run my Ravagers with tripple Dark Lances, just because I want my anti-armour gun boats to feel like they have proper anti-tank guns, but they always underperform and feel closer to a liability than anything else.
I wouldn't be completely against Dissintegrators going down to D1, but they'd need to be cheaper as you've just halved the damage output of your dedicated gunboat from 18 to 9, and it would require a corresponding buff to Dark Lances, Dark Scythes, Void Lances and Heat Lances so that they are actually usable against Knights and the like.
Grotesques have 4W btw, and poison and Shredders can be rather effective against them, same goes for Wraiths and Bullgryns, though you need to kill the Pyschic support for those first.
Disintegrators don't deserve a point cut going to D1. That's one of the most absurd things I've ever read.
Really? You think 125pts for 9 S5 D1 shots on a paper thin boat with extremely limited access to force multipliers is good? Now thats absurd, I'd probably never take them as they'd be useless at anti tank and there are better anti infantry options at that point.
118982
Post by: Apple Peel
the_scotsman wrote: G00fySmiley wrote: Insectum7 wrote: G00fySmiley wrote:I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.
Right? I think it's great.
Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.
yea. i think the marines are immune to morale should have stayed just plain... will not run. it was I believe a large factor in thier points cost that did not get accounted for in 8th. I hope more buffs are present to make your basic tac squad and by extention the full codex stronger and not just for the primaris
With marines or "Marines Plus 1" armies like Custodes (Cue 60 "um, ACKSHULLY" posts..) making up approximatly 60% of the game, 40k can either have a morale system that matters at all, or it can not, but editions where morale exists and marines are immune, morale quickly becomes something that comes up once every 20 games when you play the one guy in the club who plays Tau.
Then he rolls some dice for his single unit of Fire Warriors he took alongside his 16 obviously morale-immune Riptides proxied with Gundams and you go
"hey, what are you doing?"
"A leadership test. They run away."
"So what happens now?"
"I have no idea. Looks like we need Volume 12 of the rulebook."
As soon as Marines are immune to morale, well then Necrons should be! They're soulless robots! And obviously tyranids should be, they're mindless bugs! And clearly GSC should be, they're brainwashed cultists! And sisters should be, they're crazed zealots! And Daemons should be, they're warp-spawned monsters!
etc, etc, etc for every faction because everyone thinks Their Guys Are Cool and Would Never Run.
All of that BS justification would be solved if the name “Morale” was changed to “Unit Cohesion” or something of the like.
123933
Post by: Jimbobbyish
I think its neat! More attacks for Blood Claws, even more if near Wulfen. Will my Wulfen benefit from angels of death? I normally run 2 PF in my Blood Claws units and now getting 8 PF attacks on the charge is nice. on the problem of durability I run min squads in razorbacks.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Imateria wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Imateria wrote:Martel732 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Martel732 wrote:Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.
Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.
Those are all W3 though.
I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.
For this specific example it would certainly help Primaris infantry against Drukhari, but thats because you've effectively nerfed Drukhari against everything. As has been pointed out by everyobody with the Cultist price increase to 5ppm, making your best choice worse doesn't make the bad choices better, it just makes you worse all round. Dark Lances are spectacular against T7, 3+ armour vehicles (so most Marine vehicles but things like Hammerheads and Fire Prisms as well) but get considerably worse when you bump up to T8 and worse still with invulns added in, to the point where they're just not worth taking. Every so often I'll run my Ravagers with tripple Dark Lances, just because I want my anti-armour gun boats to feel like they have proper anti-tank guns, but they always underperform and feel closer to a liability than anything else.
I wouldn't be completely against Dissintegrators going down to D1, but they'd need to be cheaper as you've just halved the damage output of your dedicated gunboat from 18 to 9, and it would require a corresponding buff to Dark Lances, Dark Scythes, Void Lances and Heat Lances so that they are actually usable against Knights and the like.
Grotesques have 4W btw, and poison and Shredders can be rather effective against them, same goes for Wraiths and Bullgryns, though you need to kill the Pyschic support for those first.
Disintegrators don't deserve a point cut going to D1. That's one of the most absurd things I've ever read.
Really? You think 125pts for 9 S5 D1 shots on a paper thin boat with extremely limited access to force multipliers is good? Now thats absurd, I'd probably never take them as they'd be useless at anti tank and there are better anti infantry options at that point.
9 S5 AP-3 Assault shots, actually. At 36". For 125 points that's a good value.
101163
Post by: Tyel
I think its pretty bad.
I can understand the hatred of disintegrators because they do make things like aggressors a complete liability.
But they are not obviously dominating the meta, and the idea knocking the gun from 2 damage to 1 damage would have no consequence is madness.
118746
Post by: Ice_can
Luke_Prowler wrote:I posted some math in the News & Rumors thread, reposting here
Luke_Prowler wrote:endlesswaltz123 wrote:Shock assault is very interesting. Though there are few, there are a couple of very potent melee units across both loyal and chaos, they have just become even more deadly.
A big death company unit can all of a sudden give ork boys a run for their money in terms of number of attacks.
Even a basic assault squad now has the potential to trade even with other melee equipped units. A full squad of 10 assault marines with jump packs gets you 22 ork slugga boyz. Since the AM will have the movement to get in without risk of getting shot with sluggers, they can down (on average) 1.85 boyz with their pistols (10*2/3*1/2*5/6), and then charge. They get overwatched against 20 sluggas (20*1/6*1/2* for .65 wounds on the marines. (we're rounding up for the sake of simplicity). Since the boy mob still has 20 models in it the ork player might be tempted to use counter attack to save the squad, but that's 2 CP being used to do that and orks lists are very CP hungry. Going first, the AM kill 7.78 orks (28*2/3*1/3*5/6), then the orks attacks for 4.26 dead marines. In total, that's 9.63 (10) dead boyz for 70 points vs 4.91 (5) dead marines for 80 points. This is still a trade down, but it's much better that they would have done previously against a unit that's generally considered a much heavier melee unit. And if there isn't a larger mob around to benefit from Mob Rule, another 1.7 gets lost to fleeing and now that's 11.33 (11) lost for 77 vs 80 trade off. Against something much lighter (shoota boyz, tau strike teams, guardsmen) or more expensive with worse melee (Necron warriors, sisters of battle, other space marines) and you're looking much better. And this is one of the worse choices in the codex.
Assuming no other buffs, Marine assault units are much more useful and Maine ranged units can threaten lighter units that get too close. If they do make Chapter Tactics better, or if there is other price drops, there could be a lot of hidden gems in this new codex.
However, to add some more points to the discussion. Terminators actually have as many attacks in melee as meganobz, which is rough already considering the power klaw costs more. For all the complaining about other inv saves on vehicles, hamminators are looking very threatening for being able to crush other people's elite units. Getting off that charge means less attacks back, and with less attacks the less likely that critical one gets through
Meanwhile, the math I did was for Assault Squads. For VV? for two points more you get two extra attacks with dual chainsword. that's going from roughly trading with choppa boyz to winning the combat (14 dead orks on the charge, 4 dead VV back, 96 vs 72 points. 6.5 orks flee without a back up unit nearby and that's 3-4 boys and a nob wondering what the heck just happened and about to lose in the next fight phase.
Unfortunately, I actually question if this would actually result in more assault units being taken. While units like Assault Squads, Vanguards, and Terminators would benefit, Marine players seem melee-phobic even at the best of times.
Without a stratageum to make it less than 9 inches deepstrike marines don't have a delivery system for their melee units.
So you left with either running/walking large expansive units across the table hoping they don't loose to many points/models to be effective. Or you drop and hope you make your charge into some 4ppm douchebags and then can survive the ensuing avalanche of fireworks coming back from the fallback and shoot.
A black Templars Vamguard detachment might be casually viable but I suspect they will need to be paired with CF screen clearing shooting elements to be viable.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Tyel wrote:
I think its pretty bad.
I can understand the hatred of disintegrators because they do make things like aggressors a complete liability.
But they are not obviously dominating the meta, and the idea knocking the gun from 2 damage to 1 damage would have no consequence is madness.
Of course it would have a consequence. Now you can't point it at tanks and do reasonable damage.
It's already a high rate of fire weapon with good AP against a good variety of W1 targets. It doesn't need D2 and it never did. Get over it.
20901
Post by: Luke_Prowler
Ice_can wrote:Without a stratageum to make it less than 9 inches deepstrike marines don't have a delivery system for their melee units.
So you left with either running/walking large expansive units across the table hoping they don't loose to many points/models to be effective. Or you drop and hope you make your charge into some 4ppm douchebags and then can survive the ensuing avalanche of fireworks coming back from the fallback and shoot.
A black Templars Vamguard detachment might be casually viable but I suspect they will need to be paired with CF screen clearing shooting elements to be viable.
There's a very easy solution to that. You shoot a hole in the screen with your first turn, then deep stike and assault the second turn. Last I check, Imperial Guard don't have an infinite amount of infantry squads.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Also what's the math on the new Templars making a charge from Deep Strike? It was already ~50% so I'm now curious on the jump of success rate.
118746
Post by: Ice_can
Luke_Prowler wrote:Ice_can wrote:Without a stratageum to make it less than 9 inches deepstrike marines don't have a delivery system for their melee units.
So you left with either running/walking large expansive units across the table hoping they don't loose to many points/models to be effective. Or you drop and hope you make your charge into some 4ppm douchebags and then can survive the ensuing avalanche of fireworks coming back from the fallback and shoot.
A black Templars Vamguard detachment might be casually viable but I suspect they will need to be paired with CF screen clearing shooting elements to be viable.
There's a very easy solution to that. You shoot a hole in the screen with your first turn, then deep stike and assault the second turn. Last I check, Imperial Guard don't have an infinite amount of infantry squads.
That's one half of the problem the other is making 9+ on 2D6 charge 27% success or 73% chance of being left hanging.
Hence why they need to be BT as vanguard vets or Hammernators are too expensive to throw away on 27% chance of success.
11860
Post by: Martel732
They can get it to 8+ with vanguard warlord trait. It's the same math as that ork kultur making their charge. Check the ork thread.
87123
Post by: stormcraft
This is actually a really nice buff for GK, who have good melee weapons armywide and suffer from low attack counts.
Sure, it doesn't fix the army a a whole, but it a pretty good damage buff for an army that pays a buttload of points for force weapons on every modell.
16 AP-2, D3 Dmg attack is actually pretty sweet for a minimal strike squad. Its also really good on all our Hammer swinging characters.
60684
Post by: Drager
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Martel732 wrote:Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.
Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.
Those are all W3 though.
Disintegrators aren't that good now, without Doom. Still better than DL, but those are simply awful. I have to rely on Haywire fit anti tank now and Dissies aren't worth taking for anti infantry except on planes. Dropped all the ravagers from my lists since the nerf. Nerfing again just eliminates Disintegrators from the game and makes DE given only as the planes lose too much.
Unlike marines we can't just switch to another heavy weapon. We only have 2 and the other one is already bad.
8824
Post by: Breton
You accepted the premise. Marines weren't immune to morale. They had a different reaction to losing. They became shaken, instead of broken. I forget all the details, but the gist was they weren't as effective, and couldn't move towards an enemy. I don't remember if they had to rally to get back to normal, or automatically did. I also don't remember if Shaken was as bad as it got, or if shaken marines failing a check then broke. It's been a while. I think shaken marines would auto-rally at the end of your next turn, and shaken marines that failed a second check then broke like other armies.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Combined with Bolter Drill, it allows individual squads to punch somewhat above their own weight, without being inherently game breaking.
Sure, there'll be specific units which become really horrible. But overall, it's a nice boost. It makes it less of a sure thing to simple swamp Marines in combat, as you're still doubling their attack potential.
The proof as ever will be in the playing, but it's made me for one look twice at a Marine army (10 Intercessors getting 30 attacks in the first round of a combat? Tasty).
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
yeah I've got a pack of intercessors I've yet to build, and I've got eneugh 5 man squads I'm thinking it'd be a smart idea to put together a 10 man marine intercessor squad, to occasionally run as veterns. and just mow gak down
8824
Post by: Breton
I've got one that was already earmarked for Stalker Bolt Rifles. Now it's even more earmarked. I'm still not convinced Veteran Intercessors is the thing to do until we can get CP's a whole lot easier. 3 CP to use the stratagem the first time feels little pricey. OK a lot pricey.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
What does the Veteran thing do?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just from a fluff perspective (I get that's not everyone's bag) it feels right.
They're now more shooty than the average troop. They're now more hitty than the average troop.
It makes Astartes feel more dangerous, especially as certain HTH specialists (Striking Scorpions, anyone without power weapons) might be thinking twice before charging in, because in that first round, an average sized squad of Marines can fight like devils. Makes the attrition thing harder, and arguably more cinematic to achieve?
85299
Post by: Spoletta
One more attack and lets them use additional stratagems. One of those stratagems makes stalker bolters actual snipers, which with damage 2 is something decent.
111987
Post by: Ikol
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Tyel wrote:
I think its pretty bad.
I can understand the hatred of disintegrators because they do make things like aggressors a complete liability.
But they are not obviously dominating the meta, and the idea knocking the gun from 2 damage to 1 damage would have no consequence is madness.
Of course it would have a consequence. Now you can't point it at tanks and do reasonable damage.
It's already a high rate of fire weapon with good AP against a good variety of W1 targets. It doesn't need D2 and it never did. Get over it.
The issue with that is that the Disintegrator is the only gun in the entire Dark Eldar arsenal that actually serves as "Strong Long Ranged Gun".
- Dark Lances are fractionally better at wounding Landraiders, but completely useless against Infantry or Knights.
- The Void Lance is only available on the bomber, even then you're only really getting 2 Lascannons that trade 12" of range for a point of AP. For 155 points.
- Haywire is great for anti-vehicle and mediocre at anti-infantry, but only available on the fragile Scourges or the BS4+ Talos.
- Blasters have an 18" range. Meaning that if you can hit it with a blaster, you're within rapid fire distance when they retaliate.
- The Heat Lance is laughable terrible.
The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.
With the FAQ changing Doom so you can't get re-roll all wounds on them, they're no longer ludicrously strong, and even then they were never meta-defining.
93856
Post by: Galef
Ikol wrote: The issue with that is that the Disintegrator is the only gun in the entire Dark Eldar arsenal that actually serves as "Strong Long Ranged Gun". - Dark Lances are fractionally better at wounding Landraiders, but completely useless against Infantry or Knights. - The Void Lance is only available on the bomber, even then you're only really getting 2 Lascannons that trade 12" of range for a point of AP. For 155 points. - Haywire is great for anti-vehicle and mediocre at anti-infantry, but only available on the fragile Scourges or the BS4+ Talos. - Blasters have an 18" range. Meaning that if you can hit it with a blaster, you're within rapid fire distance when they retaliate. - The Heat Lance is laughable terrible. The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume. With the FAQ changing Doom so you can't get re-roll all wounds on them, they're no longer ludicrously strong, and even then they were never meta-defining.
Yeah I kind of agree that Dissies being D1 might be too much of a nerf for DE. I'd much rather see Dissies and DLs swap costs, Dissies should be 20ppm, DLs 15ppm Or you could give them a dual profile like they used to have back in the day: Assault 3, S5 Ap-2 D1 or Heavy d3 S7 AP-2 D2 -
50012
Post by: Crimson
Ikol wrote:
The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.
If one weapon gets pretty much always chosen over the other options it means the internal balance is crap and something should be changed. They can slightly buff Dark Lances and Heat Lances and nerf the Disintegrators (be this via an actual rule changes or point costs) so that there is actually a reason for taking all of these weapons.
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Post by: Martel732
As I said, it's a marine problem, not a Drukhari problem.
50012
Post by: Crimson
Crap internal balance for their weapons is a Drukhari problem.
Lances should be worth taking, and there should actually be a choice to whether take an anti-elite or anti-tank gun, instead of the former just doing the both jobs.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Crimson wrote:Ikol wrote:
The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.
If one weapon gets pretty much always chosen over the other options it means the internal balance is crap and something should be changed. They can slightly buff Dark Lances and Heat Lances and nerf the Disintegrators (be this via an actual rule changes or point costs) so that there is actually a reason for taking all of these weapons.
The Dissy doesn't NEED to pull any other duties than anti-infantry either. D1 is perfectly fine for a 15 point weapon with S5 Ap-3 Assault 3
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Post by: TwinPoleTheory
Galef wrote:Odd side effect I've noticed: If this applies to Heretic Astartes keyword, Cultists and Pox Walkers will also get this bonus. Not sure how I feel about that
Pretty sure you're allowed to think that's dumb. As a Chaos player I think it would be pretty dumb. They could tie it to the ability to use Legion traits and that would mostly clean it up. Sadly DG and TS don't technically have proper 'Legion Traits' or at least they're not called out as such, so they'd probably need to do something special for them.
Other than that, it's all conjecture until we see the PDF.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Spoletta wrote:One more attack and lets them use additional stratagems. One of those stratagems makes stalker bolters actual snipers, which with damage 2 is something decent.
That....is pretty saucy! Spesh if you go for a Chapter Tactic with exploding 6's.
102537
Post by: Sgt. Cortez
I just built 15 Plague Marines with CC weapons (knives, axes, flails) and was about to build 15 Possessed. Let's just say I'm pretty happy about Shock assault 
I'm even thinking about using Powerfists for the first time this edition (up until now I was happy that I had them magnetized and used axes or swords in 8th instead).
111961
Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine
Martel732 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.
Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!
I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.
I don't think it's the right route, but it's a route. I don't like the adding of random special rules to marines to make them special and worth three guardsmen. I'm still more in favor of reducing the cost to an appropriate level for a no-special-rule statline.
91128
Post by: Xenomancers
 TwinPoleTheory wrote: Galef wrote:Odd side effect I've noticed: If this applies to Heretic Astartes keyword, Cultists and Pox Walkers will also get this bonus. Not sure how I feel about that
Pretty sure you're allowed to think that's dumb. As a Chaos player I think it would be pretty dumb. They could tie it to the ability to use Legion traits and that would mostly clean it up. Sadly DG and TS don't technically have proper 'Legion Traits' or at least they're not called out as such, so they'd probably need to do something special for them.
Other than that, it's all conjecture until we see the PDF.
TS legion trait is +6 range on their psychic powers and smiting not degrading. It's pretty dang good. DG probably have the overall best legion/army trait in the game - 5+ FNP most of their vheicals get it too. It's just not called a legion trait I guess is what you are saying. They certainly don't also need a trait on top of what they already get. They should get access to these astartes rules like +1 attack on the charge and such - they are indeed astartes. Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is an armor save problem. Armor is a terrible stat because it is incredibly easy to ignore AND is still expensive while it's being ignored.
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Post by: TwinPoleTheory
Xenomancers wrote:TS legion trait is +6 range on their psychic powers and smiting not degrading. It's pretty dang good. DG probably have the overall best legion/army trait in the game - 5+ FNP most of their vheicals get it too. It's just not called a legion trait I guess is what you are saying. They certainly don't also need a trait on top of what they already get. They should get access to these astartes rules like +1 attack on the charge and such - they are indeed astartes.
I agree, but if you look specifically at the codices it is not *specifically* (and I am being terribly pedantic here) called out as a Legion trait in either case. I suspect they won't want this to apply to Tzaangors, Cultists, and Pox Walkers, so they'll probably do something a bit more specific in the case of those two legions.
Also, to clarify, I love the TS/ DG legion traits, absolutely no complaints.
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Post by: Xenomancers
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Xenomancers wrote:TS legion trait is +6 range on their psychic powers and smiting not degrading. It's pretty dang good. DG probably have the overall best legion/army trait in the game - 5+ FNP most of their vheicals get it too. It's just not called a legion trait I guess is what you are saying. They certainly don't also need a trait on top of what they already get. They should get access to these astartes rules like +1 attack on the charge and such - they are indeed astartes.
I agree, but if you look specifically at the codices it is not *specifically* (and I am being terribly pedantic here) called out as a Legion trait in either case. I suspect they won't want this to apply to Tzaangors, Cultists, and Pox Walkers, so they'll probably do something a bit more specific in the case of those two legions.
Also, to clarify, I love the TS/ DG legion traits, absolutely no complaints.
I think only your power armor marine types are going to get the choas "angels of death" ability. The real question - what will they call it. It will include death to the false emperor. I'd wager it will be called - hertical "something". Kind of worrisome though. Don't Tzzangors already get DTTFE?
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Post by: Sgt. Cortez
DG trait is rapid fire on 18'' and ignoring -1 to hit for heavy and assault.
Disgustingly resilient is not a legion tactic, it's a built in special rule you pay points for.
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Post by: Xenomancers
Sgt. Cortez wrote:DG trait is rapid fire on 18'' and ignoring -1 to hit for heavy and assault.
Disgustingly resilient is not a legion tactic, it's a built in special rule you pay points for.
TY for the clarification. Point we were making is that these are army specific rules. It doesn't really mater what they call them. What matters is how they are applied to the units.
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Post by: TwinPoleTheory
Xenomancers wrote:I think only your power armor marine types are going to get the choas "angels of death" ability. The real question - what will they call it. It will include death to the false emperor. I'd wager it will be called - hertical "something". Kind of worrisome though. Don't Tzzangors already get DTTFE?
No, they don't get DTTFE. The ability should definitely be limited to power armor marines, how they accomplish that is the question. Getting an extra attack on Rubrics and Plague Marines will not suck though.
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Post by: Daedalus81
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Xenomancers wrote:I think only your power armor marine types are going to get the choas "angels of death" ability. The real question - what will they call it. It will include death to the false emperor. I'd wager it will be called - hertical "something". Kind of worrisome though. Don't Tzzangors already get DTTFE?
No, they don't get DTTFE. The ability should definitely be limited to power armor marines, how they accomplish that is the question. Getting an extra attack on Rubrics and Plague Marines will not suck though.
Yea an extra staff swing at the very least is quite useful. The real win for me is with Scarabs. Always on AP2 bolters and 50% more melee swings is ace.
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Post by: Sgt. Cortez
Even though Rubrics certainly could need the help in-game, fluffwize they might be the only astartes that actually are not known to do/ capable of a shock assault, right?
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Post by: Imateria
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson wrote:Ikol wrote:
The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.
If one weapon gets pretty much always chosen over the other options it means the internal balance is crap and something should be changed. They can slightly buff Dark Lances and Heat Lances and nerf the Disintegrators (be this via an actual rule changes or point costs) so that there is actually a reason for taking all of these weapons.
The Dissy doesn't NEED to pull any other duties than anti-infantry either. D1 is perfectly fine for a 15 point weapon with S5 Ap-3 Assault 3
Unfortunately for me, the Dissies do NEED to pull double duty thanks to our other anti tank options being so horrifyingly laclustre. Nerf the Dissintegrator in a vacuum and yes, Primaris Marines and other multi wound infantry models will hold up better against them, but you've now just left Drukhari without any decent anti-tank options at all which is a complete joke. So like I said previously, I'm fine with the idea of Dissintegrators going D1, but a lot of our other options need to get significant changes to be useful.
Frankly, this is a game wide problem, if Dissies need to go to D1, then so do Autocannons (heck, all atuocannon varients should be dropped by -1D), HYMP, HBC, Starcannons, Impaler Cannons, Loota's, Gauss Cannons (the S6, D3 damage gun on Destroyers) and Imperial Plasma (and I assume Chaos plasma) needs a rework, it should not be better than xenos plasma in every single way regardless of being overcharged or not. And then the single shot, high strength weapons with random damage need to be buffed, some of them significantly, so that they can actually do their specific job.
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Post by: Dakka Wolf
Personally I think the answer to fall-back should be along the lines of using Pistol for those that have access to them and its own special rule for those that don't but need it.
You declare that you're going to wimp out I shoot/attack you for being a wimp.
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Post by: BrianDavion
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:What does the Veteran thing do?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just from a fluff perspective (I get that's not everyone's bag) it feels right.
They're now more shooty than the average troop. They're now more hitty than the average troop.
It makes Astartes feel more dangerous, especially as certain HTH specialists (Striking Scorpions, anyone without power weapons) might be thinking twice before charging in, because in that first round, an average sized squad of Marines can fight like devils. Makes the attrition thing harder, and arguably more cinematic to achieve?
it gets even nastier depending on the chapter. rush into Ultramarines, they fight like demons, pull back and then shoot you. White scars meanwhile can fallback and charge, maximizing their number of attacks. which could really put the pain on you.
so yeah Agreed. Space Marines aren't going to be suddenly capable of killing the close combat monster units out there, but the light skirmisher melee infantry that people sometimes use to tie up a gunline will be MUCH less capable of doing so on Marines
111987
Post by: Ikol
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson wrote:Ikol wrote:
The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.
If one weapon gets pretty much always chosen over the other options it means the internal balance is crap and something should be changed. They can slightly buff Dark Lances and Heat Lances and nerf the Disintegrators (be this via an actual rule changes or point costs) so that there is actually a reason for taking all of these weapons.
The Dissy doesn't NEED to pull any other duties than anti-infantry either. D1 is perfectly fine for a 15 point weapon with S5 Ap-3 Assault 3
If its anti-infantry, DE don't need more of that. We have poison and Wyches and Grotesques and Talos with Chain Flails and Mandrakes and POISON. If its anti-heavy infantry (which it most certainly IS, it definitely needs D2, otherwise it'll be terrible at actually killing heavy infantry. And it's the only gun that actually fills that role.
It doesn't need to be anti-tank, but a fact of 8th edition is that anti-heavy infantry and anti-tank have quite a bit of overlap. So unless the dedicated anti-tank seriously out-performs the anti-heavy, you're better off bringing one that can do both.
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Post by: Martel732
I can live with losing intercessors or infiltrators, but the way they have price gravis/hellblaster units, primaris are far too weak to 2 damage. It's not a Drukhari problem, because I've humbled many primaris now with suppressors.
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Post by: BrianDavion
D1 can be a valid anti-heavy infantry weapon, so long as you have eneugh shots.
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Post by: Eonfuzz
Martel732 wrote:I can live with losing intercessors or infiltrators, but the way they have price gravis/hellblaster units, primaris are far too weak to 2 damage. It's not a Drukhari problem, because I've humbled many primaris now with suppressors.
My Ork Boyz are far too weak to 1 damage. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sgt. Cortez wrote:Even though Rubrics certainly could need the help in-game, fluffwize they might be the only astartes that actually are not known to do/ capable of a shock assault, right?
Why play Rubrics when you can get a primaris intercessor that is better than a Rubric in every single way?
+1 Wound
+2 Attacks
+12" range
+DakkaDakkaDakkav2Improved
+1 BS and WS OR Ignore terrain modifiers
The codex creep is fething ridiculous.
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Post by: Daedalus81
 Eonfuzz wrote:Martel732 wrote:I can live with losing intercessors or infiltrators, but the way they have price gravis/hellblaster units, primaris are far too weak to 2 damage. It's not a Drukhari problem, because I've humbled many primaris now with suppressors.
My Ork Boyz are far too weak to 1 damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:Even though Rubrics certainly could need the help in-game, fluffwize they might be the only astartes that actually are not known to do/ capable of a shock assault, right?
Why play Rubrics when you can get a primaris intercessor that is better than a Rubric in every single way?
+1 Wound
+2 Attacks
+12" range
+DakkaDakkaDakkav2Improved
+1 BS and WS OR Ignore terrain modifiers
The codex creep is fething ridiculous.
But that is a patently false statement to say better in every way.
It's only 6" more.
They're not psykers and so cannot cast or dispel.
They dont get a bonus to their save against d1.
They dont have a 5++.
Its +1A since rubrics go up, too.
The chapter tactics are going to vary.
I'm going to be on a 3+ in cover vs AP2 bolt rifles.
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Post by: Eonfuzz
Daedalus81 wrote: Eonfuzz wrote:Martel732 wrote:I can live with losing intercessors or infiltrators, but the way they have price gravis/hellblaster units, primaris are far too weak to 2 damage. It's not a Drukhari problem, because I've humbled many primaris now with suppressors.
My Ork Boyz are far too weak to 1 damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:Even though Rubrics certainly could need the help in-game, fluffwize they might be the only astartes that actually are not known to do/ capable of a shock assault, right?
Why play Rubrics when you can get a primaris intercessor that is better than a Rubric in every single way?
+1 Wound
+2 Attacks
+12" range
+DakkaDakkaDakkav2Improved
+1 BS and WS OR Ignore terrain modifiers
The codex creep is fething ridiculous.
But that is a patently false statement to say better in every way.
It's only 6" more.
They're not psykers and so cannot cast or dispel.
They dont get a bonus to their save against d1.
They dont have a 5++.
Its +1A since rubrics go up, too.
The chapter tactics are going to vary.
I'm going to be on a 3+ in cover vs AP2 bolt rifles.
Dont forget marines may also have AP -1 in melee
Marines can also:
- Get a bonus save against ALL Ap1 weaponry, and a 6++
- Get DakkaDakkaDakkaV2Improved and WS/ BS+1 OR Ignore terrain
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?
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Post by: Eonfuzz
BrianDavion wrote:except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?
Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Eonfuzz wrote:BrianDavion wrote:except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?
Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.
It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.
...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.
117188
Post by: Eonfuzz
Not Online!!! wrote: Eonfuzz wrote:BrianDavion wrote:except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?
Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.
It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.
...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.
And, Ironically, having parts of your body swapped out for bionics (Iron Hands) makes you more resilient than a walking suit of armor.
119289
Post by: Not Online!!!
Eonfuzz wrote:Not Online!!! wrote: Eonfuzz wrote:BrianDavion wrote:except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?
Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.
It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.
...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.
And, Ironically, having parts of your body swapped out for bionics (Iron Hands) makes you more resilient than a walking suit of armor.
Pah we all knew that IW were just good enough to dig away the enemies sandcastle and nothing more
It ain't like they also replace mutations etc with bionics
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
Eonfuzz wrote:Not Online!!! wrote: Eonfuzz wrote:BrianDavion wrote:except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?
Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.
It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.
...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.
And, Ironically, having parts of your body swapped out for bionics (Iron Hands) makes you more resilient than a walking suit of armor.
fancy that, replacing the weak fleshy bits under a suit of armor, with stronger metal makes you tougher,
119289
Post by: Not Online!!!
BrianDavion wrote: Eonfuzz wrote:Not Online!!! wrote: Eonfuzz wrote:BrianDavion wrote:except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?
Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.
It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.
...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.
And, Ironically, having parts of your body swapped out for bionics (Iron Hands) makes you more resilient than a walking suit of armor.
fancy that, replacing the weak fleshy bits under a suit of armor, with stronger metal makes you tougher,
Pah we all knew that IW were just good enough to dig away the enemies sandcastle and nothing more
It ain't like they also replace mutations etc with bionics
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
well thats beside the point, I mean if *I* was writing a revised list of legion tactics, Iron Warriors would get the 6++ of Iron warriors to reflect their love of cybernetics, combined with the ignore cover part Imperial Fists get,
that'd be a nasty combo.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
So, I'm trying to get my head around what all a basic marine will get with this new codex.
They'll basically have +1A from shock assault, Bolter Discipline, an AP buff of some sort depending on turn/weapon type, ATSKNF, and some upgraded Chapter Tactics with some mix & match shennanigans? Anything else?
It's an impressive amount of stuff, and a lot of special rules to keep track of. I'm hoping it'll help some of the more classic/standard units, though I suspect a lot of this will just reinforce what's already good.
We'll see how it plays out, I'm glad that some of these are being applied to other marine books. I can only hope they redo Chaos Marines with as much love.
All that said, looking at the new units, the Warsuit is...dumb. How many different Dreadnought-esque units do we need?
119289
Post by: Not Online!!!
 Vaktathi wrote:So, I'm trying to get my head around what all a basic marine will get with this new codex.
They'll basically have +1A from shock assault, Bolter Discipline, an AP buff of some sort depending on turn/weapon type, ATSKNF, and some upgraded Chapter Tactics with some mix & match shennanigans? Anything else?
It's an impressive amount of stuff, and a lot of special rules to keep track of. I'm hoping it'll help some of the more classic/standard units, though I suspect a lot of this will just reinforce what's already good.
We'll see how it plays out, I'm glad that some of these are being applied to other marine books. I can only hope they redo Chaos Marines with as much love.
All that said, looking at the new units, the Warsuit is...dumb. How many different Dreadnought-esque units do we need?
But allready got "updated", we therefore have no right to complain.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"
as for chaos, I imagine once people get a look at the CT design rules people'll be housing ruling improved legion tactics.
97198
Post by: Nazrak
BrianDavion wrote:the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"
Yeah, I'm pretty chuffed about the effect this'll have on my Classic Marines. The regular lads with Bolters might actually be frightening to enemy basic infantry again, and that's pretty much exactly what I want from my Marines.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
 Nazrak wrote:BrianDavion wrote:the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"
Yeah, I'm pretty chuffed about the effect this'll have on my Classic Marines. The regular lads with Bolters might actually be frightening to enemy basic infantry again, and that's pretty much exactly what I want from my Marines.
agreed me too, Marines are going to be something people take seriously, not because of some OP FOTM unit that GW made a typo on and priced it at 10 points instead of 19, not because of some rules loophole, but because Marines are, just that good.
119289
Post by: Not Online!!!
BrianDavion wrote: Nazrak wrote:BrianDavion wrote:the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"
Yeah, I'm pretty chuffed about the effect this'll have on my Classic Marines. The regular lads with Bolters might actually be frightening to enemy basic infantry again, and that's pretty much exactly what I want from my Marines.
agreed me too, Marines are going to be something people take seriously, not because of some OP FOTM unit that GW made a typo on and priced it at 10 points instead of 19, not because of some rules loophole, but because Marines are, just that good.
Still of the opinion that a basic free chainsword would've been sufficient.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
Not Online!!! wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Nazrak wrote:BrianDavion wrote:the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"
Yeah, I'm pretty chuffed about the effect this'll have on my Classic Marines. The regular lads with Bolters might actually be frightening to enemy basic infantry again, and that's pretty much exactly what I want from my Marines.
agreed me too, Marines are going to be something people take seriously, not because of some OP FOTM unit that GW made a typo on and priced it at 10 points instead of 19, not because of some rules loophole, but because Marines are, just that good.
Still of the opinion that a basic free chainsword would've been sufficient.
that would have required them modeling it, granted they could have simply given all marines a combat knife and it would have sufficed, IIRC marines are modeled with a knife on them. but keep in mind that would have been a bigger buff, as it is Marines are shoick troopers with these rules, they hit hardest on the first strike and don't do as well in a a prolonged brawl.
119289
Post by: Not Online!!!
BrianDavion wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Nazrak wrote:BrianDavion wrote:the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"
Yeah, I'm pretty chuffed about the effect this'll have on my Classic Marines. The regular lads with Bolters might actually be frightening to enemy basic infantry again, and that's pretty much exactly what I want from my Marines.
agreed me too, Marines are going to be something people take seriously, not because of some OP FOTM unit that GW made a typo on and priced it at 10 points instead of 19, not because of some rules loophole, but because Marines are, just that good.
Still of the opinion that a basic free chainsword would've been sufficient.
that would have required them modeling it, granted they could have simply given all marines a combat knife and it would have sufficed, IIRC marines are modeled with a knife on them. but keep in mind that would have been a bigger buff, as it is Marines are shoick troopers with these rules, they hit hardest on the first strike and don't do as well in a a prolonged brawl.
That would be true if it weren't for them also getting it whilest charged so no they are not really shocktroops needing to maintain momentum and secondly UM and White scar trait exist.
It's bollocks and the only real reason why it is a rule and not an free combat knife / chainsword is the fact that they can sell us more rule books.
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Post by: TheFleshIsWeak
Alternatively, they could behave like grown adults, get over their CHS lawsuit and drop their bloody stupid 'no model, no rules' policy (not that they even adhere to it half the time).
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Post by: Nazrak
Not Online!!! wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Nazrak wrote:BrianDavion wrote:the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"
Yeah, I'm pretty chuffed about the effect this'll have on my Classic Marines. The regular lads with Bolters might actually be frightening to enemy basic infantry again, and that's pretty much exactly what I want from my Marines.
agreed me too, Marines are going to be something people take seriously, not because of some OP FOTM unit that GW made a typo on and priced it at 10 points instead of 19, not because of some rules loophole, but because Marines are, just that good.
Still of the opinion that a basic free chainsword would've been sufficient.
Except then 1. you're changing the load-out of units that have existed since 1st edition, and some of us like the consisency; and 2. there's no distinction between a Tactical Squad and an Assault Squad. I much prefer this way, and it keeps chainswords feeling special.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Nazrak wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Nazrak wrote:BrianDavion wrote:the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"
Yeah, I'm pretty chuffed about the effect this'll have on my Classic Marines. The regular lads with Bolters might actually be frightening to enemy basic infantry again, and that's pretty much exactly what I want from my Marines.
agreed me too, Marines are going to be something people take seriously, not because of some OP FOTM unit that GW made a typo on and priced it at 10 points instead of 19, not because of some rules loophole, but because Marines are, just that good.
Still of the opinion that a basic free chainsword would've been sufficient.
Except then 1. you're changing the load-out of units that have existed since 1st edition, and some of us like the consisency; and 2. there's no distinction between a Tactical Squad and an Assault Squad. I much prefer this way, and it keeps chainswords feeling special.
Mhm, just like CSM since 7th have magically lost their chainswords? Whereas before they always had one on the by.
2. Assault marines are literally a entry not worth existing. (beyond the jumppack version)
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Post by: Ice_can
Not Online!!! wrote: Nazrak wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:BrianDavion wrote: Nazrak wrote:BrianDavion wrote:the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"
Yeah, I'm pretty chuffed about the effect this'll have on my Classic Marines. The regular lads with Bolters might actually be frightening to enemy basic infantry again, and that's pretty much exactly what I want from my Marines.
agreed me too, Marines are going to be something people take seriously, not because of some OP FOTM unit that GW made a typo on and priced it at 10 points instead of 19, not because of some rules loophole, but because Marines are, just that good.
Still of the opinion that a basic free chainsword would've been sufficient.
Except then 1. you're changing the load-out of units that have existed since 1st edition, and some of us like the consisency; and 2. there's no distinction between a Tactical Squad and an Assault Squad. I much prefer this way, and it keeps chainswords feeling special.
Mhm, just like CSM since 7th have magically lost their chainswords? Whereas before they always had one on the by.
2. Assault marines are literally a entry not worth existing. (beyond the jumppack version)
Except GW came up with a rule that helps every unit in the codex, your suggestion would have either required some very odd concepts like terminators suddenly become able to switch to a chainsword and PF or TH SS and Chainswords vrs GW's fix which they actually get to benifit from without a lot of WTAF moments your design leads too.
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Post by: Breton
Ikol wrote: So it gets brought in volume.
and even then they were never meta-defining.
Emphasis mine.
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Post by: ThatMG
Not sure if answered but the Shock Assault rule isn't key worded because it's a datasheet ability.
Ergo
[Named] Datasheet
Heretics of Death OR Angels of Death.
Angels of Death
Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, And They Shall Know No Fear. (+Doctrines Access for non BA,SW,DA,DW,GK)
Heretics of Death
Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, Death To The False Emperor.
They will FAQ all datasheets with the rules, so I guess no to the non space marine "Heretic Astartes" key worded units.
It be interesting to see if it applies to Dreadnoughts/Hellbrutes/Daemon Princes, possessed + greaters possessed.
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