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So this has been discussed in the many, many other threads sparked from the announcement of the new Marine Codex + Supplements, but since the rule is going to apply to over half the armies available in 40K (All Astates; Adeptus & Hereticus) I think it merits its own thread.

Quick summary: the rule gives +1Atk if the unit charges, is charged or performs a Heroic Intervention.
Personally, I think this is a good contrast to Bolter Discipline as it encourages melee, rather than discourage it (like BD unfortunately does)

I also like that this rule gives a melee bonus to so many armies as it makes melee a bit more appealing, which is always good to counter balance shooting.
Although I don't except this change to upheave the shooting meta by any stretch, it at least is something.
While this is a damage output bonus for Marines that much needed it, I can also see this as a downside to their durability as well. Marines vs Marines are going to die even faster now, make what you will of that.

GKs will certainly get boosted by this rule more than other Astartes due to every model being required to have a melee weapon. Every bit helps

Odd side effect I've noticed: If this applies to Heretic Astartes keyword, Cultists and Pox Walkers will also get this bonus. Not sure how I feel about that

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 Galef wrote:
So this has been discussed in the many, many other threads sparked from the announcement of the new Marine Codex + Supplements, but since the rule is going to apply to over half the armies available in 40K (All Astates; Adeptus & Hereticus) I think it merits its own thread.

Quick summary: the rule gives +1Atk if the unit charges, is charged or performs a Heroic Intervention.
Personally, I think this is a good contrast to Bolter Discipline as it encourages melee, rather than discourage it (like BD unfortunately does)

I also like that this rule gives a melee bonus to so many armies as it makes melee a bit more appealing, which is always good to counter balance shooting.
Although I don't except this change to upheave the shooting meta by any stretch, it at least is something.
While this is a damage output bonus for Marines that much needed it, I can also see this as a downside to their durability as well. Marines vs Marines are going to die even faster now, make what you will of that.

GKs will certainly get boosted by this rule more than other Astartes due to every model being required to have a melee weapon. Every bit helps

Odd side effect I've noticed: If this applies to Heretic Astartes keyword, Cultists and Pox Walkers will also get this bonus. Not sure how I feel about that

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Berzerkers will get even more blendy with this rule And Thunderwolf Cavalry finally seems viable for at least casual games. Space Wolves in general like it a lot as well because of thier +1 to hit on the charge.

Hopefully they'll have thought of the cultists/poxwalkers issue and avoid it.

Overall, I like the rule a lot. I am about to switch back to my Lamenters for a slow-grow, and it will help me immensely, as I was already planning a (possibly foolish) melee focus.

Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.

Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!

Quasistellar wrote:
Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.

Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!

I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.

Martel732 wrote:

I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.

The fix for the durability issue would be GW properly pricing the multi-damage weapons so that the Primaris would actually feel tougher as intended.

Tzaangors with even more attacks you say?

But seriously, Cultists already have baked in exceptions to Astartes boosts. Id be highly surprised if that didnt roll out to other non-Astartes units in Chaos books.

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.

The fix for the durability issue would be GW properly pricing the multi-damage weapons so that the Primaris would actually feel tougher as intended.

That's one possibility. But I feel that most multidamage weapons, specifically low shot, high AP, are already gimped pretty badly. It's a bit of a mess, really. Dissy cannons don't feel that strong vs demons or IG or Orks. Only marines.

Martel732 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.

Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!

I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.

It actually does improve durability in a way, since it could make transports potentially useful. There is a breaking point where those 10 assault marines in a rhino actually become dangerous enough that purchasing a transport is a good investment.
Remember that the biggest complain about SM transports is not that they are bad, but that there is nothing good to put in those.
Could this change actually lead to transports becoming a meaningful choice? Time will tell.

I like what it does for Terminators.

Spoletta wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.

Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!

I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.

It actually does improve durability in a way, since it could make transports potentially useful. There is a breaking point where those 10 assault marines in a rhino actually become dangerous enough that purchasing a transport is a good investment.
Remember that the biggest complain about SM transports is not that they are bad, but that there is nothing good to put in those.
Could this change actually lead to transports becoming a meaningful choice? Time will tell.

Maybe. I'm really concerned about how much this rule will really change, since lists can always soak assaults on their chaff screens. Just like they do already with berserkers and BA and the like. Melee units really need to hang around to be effective like grots, bulls, wraiths. It doesn't matter how hard my DC punch the chaff, because they are gone next turn.

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.

The fix for the durability issue would be GW properly pricing the multi-damage weapons so that the Primaris would actually feel tougher as intended.

That's just an issue with D2 being available in droves. Even a slight cut back on that would be fine for that. I mean, as is, Disintegrators do more damage to tanks than Dark Lance's for crying out loud. Making them D1 fixes that completely.

Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.

Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.

This depends on how much the unit you use to punch the chaff costs. If you punch a discardable chaff with an expensive unit, exposing it at the same time, then you were correctly countered.
If you instead punch that chaff with something that is less expensive, opening the way for the good stuff to hit the good targets...
10 BA assault marines can delete a lot of stuff on the charge now. By correctly assigning the attacks, it is quite easy to remove 2 squads of infantry without auras or buffs. That's quite the return for those 130 points.

Spoletta wrote:
This depends on how much the unit you use to punch the chaff costs. If you punch a discardable chaff with an expensive unit, exposing it at the same time, then you were correctly countered.
If you instead punch that chaff with something that is less expensive, opening the way for the good stuff to hit the good targets...
10 BA assault marines can delete a lot of stuff on the charge now. By correctly assigning the attacks, it is quite easy to remove 2 squads of infantry without auras or buffs. That's quite the return for those 130 points.

This approach just never seems to work out in practice. It's fantastic on paper, but it's almost always easier just to shoot the good stuff. Also, depends if those infantry are guardsmen or plaguebearers.

Depending on the cost of the new transport, BA reivers could be really scary.


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Martel732 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
This depends on how much the unit you use to punch the chaff costs. If you punch a discardable chaff with an expensive unit, exposing it at the same time, then you were correctly countered.
If you instead punch that chaff with something that is less expensive, opening the way for the good stuff to hit the good targets...
10 BA assault marines can delete a lot of stuff on the charge now. By correctly assigning the attacks, it is quite easy to remove 2 squads of infantry without auras or buffs. That's quite the return for those 130 points.

This approach just never seems to work out in practice. It's fantastic on paper, but it's almost always easier just to shoot the good stuff. Also, depends if those infantry are guardsmen or plaguebearers.

Yeah sure, but nothing changed there. Instead melee got a huge boost, so we are now discussing if new options opened.

I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point. I'll take it, but I can already throw a ton of punches to no effect because of chaff and fall back mechanics.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point.

I am semi in the same boat.

I don't think it would be good to turn off fall back. But I am curious how big of a boost it will turn out to be.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point.

That would undoubtedly be way too strong as a faction wide rule thing, that as a rule only exists on very specific models like Fiends and Wyches, the former being very easy to gun down if you don't have LoS blocking terrain and being unable to affect units with FLY, while the latter forces you to have a roll-off before deciding if you can Fall Back or not. It also relegates Marines to effectively tarpitting with the majority of their units, which doesn't exactly match their role as a shock assault army.

So many flying shooting units; preventing their fall back is critical, and right now, its impossible.


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 Grimskul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point.

That would undoubtedly be way too strong as a faction wide rule thing, that as a rule only exists on very specific models like Fiends and Wyches, the former being very easy to gun down if you don't have LoS blocking terrain and being unable to affect units with FLY, while the latter forces you to have a roll-off before deciding if you can Fall Back or not. It also relegates Marines to effectively tarpitting with the majority of their units, which doesn't exactly match their role as a shock assault army.

You can't be shock anything if you are dead. And fall back is making them dead. I agree that it won't happen. I'm skeptical that it would be too strong.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm questioning how much of a boost it is. I think it would be stronger, for example, if astartes turned off fall back, the bane of all melee. I don't know how much adding some more S4 punches is going to help. That's my point. I'll take it, but I can already throw a ton of punches to no effect because of chaff and fall back mechanics.

Arguably though, by having more S4 punches, there is less to fall back. But to me, that's not the main appeal with Shock Assault.
The real appeal is that Squad leader melee weapons and dedicated melee units are now somewhat viable, opening up far more options than before

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You think giving a VV sergeant 4 swings with a hammer instead of 3 is relevant when power armor is being scooped with a croupier stick every turn? I can juice my squads with extra swings already, and it hasn't make a lick of difference in outcomes.

Martel732 wrote:
Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.

Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.

Those are all W3 though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.

Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.

Those are all W3 though.

I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.

I think this rule buffs units with low attacks the most. Sure units like death company can blend their foe even more and gets some reliability, but can they really use that?

However units like tac-marines with hidden power fists, or terminators can suddenly actually do something. This brings them from paper weights to actually impactfull.

My point is good units already kill their targets. Bad ones can now do something too.

Martel732 wrote:
You think giving a VV sergeant 4 swings with a hammer instead of 3 is relevant when power armor is being scooped with a croupier stick every turn? I can juice my squads with extra swings already, and it hasn't make a lick of difference in outcomes.

Which is 100% a durability issue, which Shock assault isn't going to fix at all.
But getting ~25-33% more attacks per model on your entire army, can help if you use it correctly. Nothing meta shifting, but can turn a close lose into a win

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My point is that DC can blend targets and still aren't good. Maybe cheaper units getting that ability will be more useful. I don't know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You think giving a VV sergeant 4 swings with a hammer instead of 3 is relevant when power armor is being scooped with a croupier stick every turn? I can juice my squads with extra swings already, and it hasn't make a lick of difference in outcomes.

Which is 100% a durability issue, which Shock assault isn't going to fix at all.
But getting ~25-33% more attacks per model on your entire army, can help if you use it correctly. Nothing meta shifting, but can turn a close lose into a win

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As I said, I'll take it, but it makes me think GW doesn't actually understand what is going wrong.

I'm curious if the Might of Hero's psykic power is going to remain unchanged.

Having the ability to add 2 atk to someone about to charge is powerful. Gman with 8 attacks....

So now my WE possessed are D3+2 attacks on a charge. I like it.

Martel732 wrote:
You think giving a VV sergeant 4 swings with a hammer instead of 3 is relevant when power armor is being scooped with a croupier stick every turn? I can juice my squads with extra swings already, and it hasn't make a lick of difference in outcomes.

First, as an aside, can we kick out the "Tzaangors and other models get this" comments? It said Heretic Astartes not HERETIC ASTARTES. This is the same stupid crap we went through with Sisters. It's a rule for MARINES.

As for this point : it doesn't hurt, does it?

I also find that saying an increase to your attacks won't make a difference seems a bit silly. Marines have been panned for low base attacks for a while now. BA VV with dual CS are dropping 5 attacks with this and if they have a LT nearby they practically auto-wound T3 models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:


As I said, I'll take it, but it makes me think GW doesn't actually understand what is going wrong.

I think maybe you're valuing the wrong things? DoA doesn't have to be only for smash captains. Rhinos are not just a point sink.