Astartes Shock Assault rule

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**G00fySmiley**

Insectum7 wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:
I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.

Right? I think it's great.

Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.

yea. i think the marines are immune to morale should have stayed just plain... will not run. it was I believe a large factor in thier points cost that did not get accounted for in 8th. I hope more buffs are present to make your basic tac squad and by extention the full codex stronger and not just for the primaris

**Bharring**

G00fySmiley wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:
I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.

Right? I think it's great.

Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.

yea. i think the marines are immune to morale should have stayed just plain... will not run. it was I believe a large factor in thier points cost that did not get accounted for in 8th. I hope more buffs are present to make your basic tac squad and by extention the full codex stronger and not just for the primaris

"[...] at no cost [...]"
Yet to be seen. Tacs could be 15ppm in the new book!

**the_scotsman**

G00fySmiley wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:
I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.

Right? I think it's great.

Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.

yea. i think the marines are immune to morale should have stayed just plain... will not run. it was I believe a large factor in thier points cost that did not get accounted for in 8th. I hope more buffs are present to make your basic tac squad and by extention the full codex stronger and not just for the primaris

With marines or "Marines Plus 1" armies like Custodes (Cue 60 "um, ACKSHULLY" posts..) making up approximatly 60% of the game, 40k can either have a morale system that matters at all, or it can not, but editions where morale exists and marines are immune, morale quickly becomes something that comes up once every 20 games when you play the one guy in the club who plays Tau.

Then he rolls some dice for his single unit of Fire Warriors he took alongside his 16 obviously morale-immune Riptides proxied with Gundams and you go

"hey, what are you doing?"

"A leadership test. They run away."

"So what happens now?"

"I have no idea. Looks like we need Volume 12 of the rulebook."

As soon as Marines are immune to morale, well then Necrons should be! They're soulless robots! And obviously tyranids should be, they're mindless bugs! And clearly GSC should be, they're brainwashed cultists! And sisters should be, they're crazed zealots! And Daemons should be, they're warp-spawned monsters!

etc, etc, etc for every faction because everyone thinks Their Guys Are Cool and Would Never Run.

**Imateria**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Imateria wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.

Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.

Those are all W3 though.

I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.

For this specific example it would certainly help Primaris infantry against Drukhari, but thats because you've effectively nerfed Drukhari against everything. As has been pointed out by everyobody with the Cultist price increase to 5ppm, making your best choice worse doesn't make the bad choices better, it just makes you worse all round. Dark Lances are spectacular against T7, 3+ armour vehicles (so most Marine vehicles but things like Hammerheads and Fire Prisms as well) but get considerably worse when you bump up to T8 and worse still with invulns added in, to the point where they're just not worth taking. Every so often I'll run my Ravagers with tripple Dark Lances, just because I want my anti-armour gun boats to feel like they have proper anti-tank guns, but they always underperform and feel closer to a liability than anything else.

I wouldn't be completely against Dissintegrators going down to D1, but they'd need to be cheaper as you've just halved the damage output of your dedicated gunboat from 18 to 9, and it would require a corresponding buff to Dark Lances, Dark Scythes, Void Lances and Heat Lances so that they are actually usable against Knights and the like.

Grotesques have 4W btw, and poison and Shredders can be rather effective against them, same goes for Wraiths and Bullgryns, though you need to kill the Pyschic support for those first.

Disintegrators don't deserve a point cut going to D1. That's one of the most absurd things I've ever read.

Really? You think 125pts for 9 S5 D1 shots on a paper thin boat with extremely limited access to force multipliers is good? Now thats absurd, I'd probably never take them as they'd be useless at anti tank and there are better anti infantry options at that point.

**Apple Peel**

the_scotsman wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:
I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.

Right? I think it's great.

Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.

yea. i think the marines are immune to morale should have stayed just plain... will not run. it was I believe a large factor in thier points cost that did not get accounted for in 8th. I hope more buffs are present to make your basic tac squad and by extention the full codex stronger and not just for the primaris

With marines or "Marines Plus 1" armies like Custodes (Cue 60 "um, ACKSHULLY" posts..) making up approximatly 60% of the game, 40k can either have a morale system that matters at all, or it can not, but editions where morale exists and marines are immune, morale quickly becomes something that comes up once every 20 games when you play the one guy in the club who plays Tau.

Then he rolls some dice for his single unit of Fire Warriors he took alongside his 16 obviously morale-immune Riptides proxied with Gundams and you go

"hey, what are you doing?"

"A leadership test. They run away."

"So what happens now?"

"I have no idea. Looks like we need Volume 12 of the rulebook."

As soon as Marines are immune to morale, well then Necrons should be! They're soulless robots! And obviously tyranids should be, they're mindless bugs! And clearly GSC should be, they're brainwashed cultists! And sisters should be, they're crazed zealots! And Daemons should be, they're warp-spawned monsters!

etc, etc, etc for every faction because everyone thinks Their Guys Are Cool and Would Never Run.

All of that BS justification would be solved if the name “Morale” was changed to “Unit Cohesion” or something of the like.

**Jimbobbyish**

I think its neat! More attacks for Blood Claws, even more if near Wulfen. Will my Wulfen benefit from angels of death? I normally run 2 PF in my Blood Claws units and now getting 8 PF attacks on the charge is nice. on the problem of durability I run min squads in razorbacks.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Imateria wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Imateria wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.

Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.

Those are all W3 though.

I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.

For this specific example it would certainly help Primaris infantry against Drukhari, but thats because you've effectively nerfed Drukhari against everything. As has been pointed out by everyobody with the Cultist price increase to 5ppm, making your best choice worse doesn't make the bad choices better, it just makes you worse all round. Dark Lances are spectacular against T7, 3+ armour vehicles (so most Marine vehicles but things like Hammerheads and Fire Prisms as well) but get considerably worse when you bump up to T8 and worse still with invulns added in, to the point where they're just not worth taking. Every so often I'll run my Ravagers with tripple Dark Lances, just because I want my anti-armour gun boats to feel like they have proper anti-tank guns, but they always underperform and feel closer to a liability than anything else.

I wouldn't be completely against Dissintegrators going down to D1, but they'd need to be cheaper as you've just halved the damage output of your dedicated gunboat from 18 to 9, and it would require a corresponding buff to Dark Lances, Dark Scythes, Void Lances and Heat Lances so that they are actually usable against Knights and the like.

Grotesques have 4W btw, and poison and Shredders can be rather effective against them, same goes for Wraiths and Bullgryns, though you need to kill the Pyschic support for those first.

Disintegrators don't deserve a point cut going to D1. That's one of the most absurd things I've ever read.

Really? You think 125pts for 9 S5 D1 shots on a paper thin boat with extremely limited access to force multipliers is good? Now thats absurd, I'd probably never take them as they'd be useless at anti tank and there are better anti infantry options at that point.

9 S5 AP-3 Assault shots, actually. At 36". For 125 points that's a good value.

**Tyel**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
9 S5 AP-3 Assault shots, actually. At 36". For 125 points that's a good value.

I think its pretty bad.

I can understand the hatred of disintegrators because they do make things like aggressors a complete liability.
But they are not obviously dominating the meta, and the idea knocking the gun from 2 damage to 1 damage would have no consequence is madness.

**Ice_can**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
I posted some math in the News & Rumors thread, reposting here

Luke_Prowler wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Shock assault is very interesting. Though there are few, there are a couple of very potent melee units across both loyal and chaos, they have just become even more deadly.

A big death company unit can all of a sudden give ork boys a run for their money in terms of number of attacks.

Even a basic assault squad now has the potential to trade even with other melee equipped units. A full squad of 10 assault marines with jump packs gets you 22 ork slugga boyz. Since the AM will have the movement to get in without risk of getting shot with sluggers, they can down (on average) 1.85 boyz with their pistols (10*2/3*1/2*5/6), and then charge. They get overwatched against 20 sluggas (20*1/6*1/2* for .65 wounds on the marines. (we're rounding up for the sake of simplicity). Since the boy mob still has 20 models in it the ork player might be tempted to use counter attack to save the squad, but that's 2 CP being used to do that and orks lists are very CP hungry. Going first, the AM kill 7.78 orks (28*2/3*1/3*5/6), then the orks attacks for 4.26 dead marines. In total, that's 9.63 (10) dead boyz for 70 points vs 4.91 (5) dead marines for 80 points. This is still a trade down, but it's much better that they would have done previously against a unit that's generally considered a much heavier melee unit. And if there isn't a larger mob around to benefit from Mob Rule, another 1.7 gets lost to fleeing and now that's 11.33 (11) lost for 77 vs 80 trade off. Against something much lighter (shoota boyz, tau strike teams, guardsmen) or more expensive with worse melee (Necron warriors, sisters of battle, other space marines) and you're looking much better. And this is one of the worse choices in the codex.

Assuming no other buffs, Marine assault units are much more useful and Maine ranged units can threaten lighter units that get too close. If they do make Chapter Tactics better, or if there is other price drops, there could be a lot of hidden gems in this new codex.

However, to add some more points to the discussion. Terminators actually have as many attacks in melee as meganobz, which is rough already considering the power klaw costs more. For all the complaining about other inv saves on vehicles, hamminators are looking very threatening for being able to crush other people's elite units. Getting off that charge means less attacks back, and with less attacks the less likely that critical one gets through

Meanwhile, the math I did was for Assault Squads. For VV? for two points more you get two extra attacks with dual chainsword. that's going from roughly trading with choppa boyz to winning the combat (14 dead orks on the charge, 4 dead VV back, 96 vs 72 points. 6.5 orks flee without a back up unit nearby and that's 3-4 boys and a nob wondering what the heck just happened and about to lose in the next fight phase.

Unfortunately, I actually question if this would actually result in more assault units being taken. While units like Assault Squads, Vanguards, and Terminators would benefit, Marine players seem melee-phobic even at the best of times.

Without a stratageum to make it less than 9 inches deepstrike marines don't have a delivery system for their melee units.
So you left with either running/walking large expansive units across the table hoping they don't loose to many points/models to be effective. Or you drop and hope you make your charge into some 4ppm douchebags and then can survive the ensuing avalanche of fireworks coming back from the fallback and shoot.

A black Templars Vamguard detachment might be casually viable but I suspect they will need to be paired with CF screen clearing shooting elements to be viable.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Tyel wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
9 S5 AP-3 Assault shots, actually. At 36". For 125 points that's a good value.

I think its pretty bad.

I can understand the hatred of disintegrators because they do make things like aggressors a complete liability.
But they are not obviously dominating the meta, and the idea knocking the gun from 2 damage to 1 damage would have no consequence is madness.

Of course it would have a consequence. Now you can't point it at tanks and do reasonable damage.
It's already a high rate of fire weapon with good AP against a good variety of W1 targets. It doesn't need D2 and it never did. Get over it.

**Luke_Prowler**

Ice_can wrote:
Without a stratageum to make it less than 9 inches deepstrike marines don't have a delivery system for their melee units.
So you left with either running/walking large expansive units across the table hoping they don't loose to many points/models to be effective. Or you drop and hope you make your charge into some 4ppm douchebags and then can survive the ensuing avalanche of fireworks coming back from the fallback and shoot.

A black Templars Vamguard detachment might be casually viable but I suspect they will need to be paired with CF screen clearing shooting elements to be viable.

There's a very easy solution to that. You shoot a hole in the screen with your first turn, then deep stike and assault the second turn. Last I check, Imperial Guard don't have an infinite amount of infantry squads.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Also what's the math on the new Templars making a charge from Deep Strike? It was already ~50% so I'm now curious on the jump of success rate.

**Ice_can**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Without a stratageum to make it less than 9 inches deepstrike marines don't have a delivery system for their melee units.
So you left with either running/walking large expansive units across the table hoping they don't loose to many points/models to be effective. Or you drop and hope you make your charge into some 4ppm douchebags and then can survive the ensuing avalanche of fireworks coming back from the fallback and shoot.

A black Templars Vamguard detachment might be casually viable but I suspect they will need to be paired with CF screen clearing shooting elements to be viable.

There's a very easy solution to that. You shoot a hole in the screen with your first turn, then deep stike and assault the second turn. Last I check, Imperial Guard don't have an infinite amount of infantry squads.

That's one half of the problem the other is making 9+ on 2D6 charge 27% success or 73% chance of being left hanging.
Hence why they need to be BT as vanguard vets or Hammernators are too expensive to throw away on 27% chance of success.

**Martel732**

They can get it to 8+ with vanguard warlord trait. It's the same math as that ork kultur making their charge. Check the ork thread.

**stormcraft**

This is actually a really nice buff for GK, who have good melee weapons armywide and suffer from low attack counts.

Sure, it doesn't fix the army a a whole, but it a pretty good damage buff for an army that pays a buttload of points for force weapons on every modell.

16 AP-2, D3 Dmg attack is actually pretty sweet for a minimal strike squad. Its also really good on all our Hammer swinging characters.

**Drager**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.

Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.

Those are all W3 though.

Disintegrators aren't that good now, without Doom. Still better than DL, but those are simply awful. I have to rely on Haywire fit anti tank now and Dissies aren't worth taking for anti infantry except on planes. Dropped all the ravagers from my lists since the nerf. Nerfing again just eliminates Disintegrators from the game and makes DE given only as the planes lose too much.

Unlike marines we can't just switch to another heavy weapon. We only have 2 and the other one is already bad.

**Breton**

the_scotsman wrote:

As soon as Marines are immune to morale,

You accepted the premise. Marines weren't immune to morale. They had a different reaction to losing. They became shaken, instead of broken. I forget all the details, but the gist was they weren't as effective, and couldn't move towards an enemy. I don't remember if they had to rally to get back to normal, or automatically did. I also don't remember if Shaken was as bad as it got, or if shaken marines failing a check then broke. It's been a while. I think shaken marines would auto-rally at the end of your next turn, and shaken marines that failed a second check then broke like other armies.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Combined with Bolter Drill, it allows individual squads to punch somewhat above their own weight, without being inherently game breaking.

Sure, there'll be specific units which become really horrible. But overall, it's a nice boost. It makes it less of a sure thing to simple swamp Marines in combat, as you're still doubling their attack potential.

The proof as ever will be in the playing, but it's made me for one look twice at a Marine army (10 Intercessors getting 30 attacks in the first round of a combat? Tasty).

**BrianDavion**

yeah I've got a pack of intercessors I've yet to build, and I've got eneugh 5 man squads I'm thinking it'd be a smart idea to put together a 10 man marine intercessor squad, to occasionally run as veterns. and just mow gak down

**Breton**

I've got one that was already earmarked for Stalker Bolt Rifles. Now it's even more earmarked. I'm still not convinced Veteran Intercessors is the thing to do until we can get CP's a whole lot easier. 3 CP to use the stratagem the first time feels little pricey. OK a lot pricey.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

What does the Veteran thing do?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just from a fluff perspective (I get that's not everyone's bag) it feels right.

They're now more shooty than the average troop. They're now more hitty than the average troop.

It makes Astartes feel more dangerous, especially as certain HTH specialists (Striking Scorpions, anyone without power weapons) might be thinking twice before charging in, because in that first round, an average sized squad of Marines can fight like devils. Makes the attrition thing harder, and arguably more cinematic to achieve?

**Spoletta**

One more attack and lets them use additional stratagems. One of those stratagems makes stalker bolters actual snipers, which with damage 2 is something decent.

**Ikol**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
9 S5 AP-3 Assault shots, actually. At 36". For 125 points that's a good value.

I think its pretty bad.

I can understand the hatred of disintegrators because they do make things like aggressors a complete liability.
But they are not obviously dominating the meta, and the idea knocking the gun from 2 damage to 1 damage would have no consequence is madness.

Of course it would have a consequence. Now you can't point it at tanks and do reasonable damage.
It's already a high rate of fire weapon with good AP against a good variety of W1 targets. It doesn't need D2 and it never did. Get over it.

The issue with that is that the Disintegrator is the only gun in the entire Dark Eldar arsenal that actually serves as "Strong Long Ranged Gun".

- Dark Lances are fractionally better at wounding Landraiders, but completely useless against Infantry or Knights.
- The Void Lance is only available on the bomber, even then you're only really getting 2 Lascannons that trade 12" of range for a point of AP. For 155 points.
- Haywire is great for anti-vehicle and mediocre at anti-infantry, but only available on the fragile Scourges or the BS4+ Talos.
- Blasters have an 18" range. Meaning that if you can hit it with a blaster, you're within rapid fire distance when they retaliate.
- The Heat Lance is laughable terrible.

The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.

With the FAQ changing Doom so you can't get re-roll all wounds on them, they're no longer ludicrously strong, and even then they were never meta-defining.

**Galef**

Ikol wrote:

The issue with that is that the Disintegrator is the only gun in the entire Dark Eldar arsenal that actually serves as "Strong Long Ranged Gun".

- Dark Lances are fractionally better at wounding Landraiders, but completely useless against Infantry or Knights.
- The Void Lance is only available on the bomber, even then you're only really getting 2 Lascannons that trade 12" of range for a point of AP. For 155 points.
- Haywire is great for anti-vehicle and mediocre at anti-infantry, but only available on the fragile Scourges or the BS4+ Talos.
- Blasters have an 18" range. Meaning that if you can hit it with a blaster, you're within rapid fire distance when they retaliate.
- The Heat Lance is laughable terrible.

The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.

With the FAQ changing Doom so you can't get re-roll all wounds on them, they're no longer ludicrously strong, and even then they were never meta-defining.

Yeah I kind of agree that Dissies being D1 might be too much of a nerf for DE. I'd much rather see Dissies and DLs swap costs, Dissies should be 20ppm, DLs 15ppm
Or you could give them a dual profile like they used to have back in the day: Assault 3, S5 Ap-2 D1 or Heavy d3 S7 AP-2 D2

-

**Crimson**

Ikol wrote:

The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.

If one weapon gets pretty much always chosen over the other options it means the internal balance is crap and something should be changed. They can slightly buff Dark Lances and Heat Lances and nerf the Disintegrators (be this via an actual rule changes or point costs) so that there is actually a reason for taking all of these weapons.

**Martel732**

As I said, it's a marine problem, not a Drukhari problem.

**Crimson**

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, it's a marine problem, not a Drukhari problem.

Crap internal balance for their weapons is a Drukhari problem.

Lances should be worth taking, and there should actually be a choice to whether take an anti-elite or anti-tank gun, instead of the former just doing the both jobs.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
Ikol wrote:

The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.

If one weapon gets pretty much always chosen over the other options it means the internal balance is crap and something should be changed. They can slightly buff Dark Lances and Heat Lances and nerf the Disintegrators (be this via an actual rule changes or point costs) so that there is actually a reason for taking all of these weapons.

The Dissy doesn't NEED to pull any other duties than anti-infantry either. D1 is perfectly fine for a 15 point weapon with S5 Ap-3 Assault 3

**TwinPoleTheory**

Galef wrote:
Odd side effect I've noticed: If this applies to Heretic Astartes keyword, Cultists and Pox Walkers will also get this bonus. Not sure how I feel about that

Pretty sure you're allowed to think that's dumb. As a Chaos player I think it would be pretty dumb. They could tie it to the ability to use Legion traits and that would mostly clean it up. Sadly DG and TS don't technically have proper 'Legion Traits' or at least they're not called out as such, so they'd probably need to do something special for them.

Other than that, it's all conjecture until we see the PDF.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Spoletta wrote:
One more attack and lets them use additional stratagems. One of those stratagems makes stalker bolters actual snipers, which with damage 2 is something decent.

That....is pretty saucy! Spesh if you go for a Chapter Tactic with exploding 6's.