Astartes Shock Assault rule

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**Martel732**

I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.

**Imateria**

Martel732 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.

Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.

Those are all W3 though.

I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.

For this specific example it would certainly help Primaris infantry against Drukhari, but thats because you've effectively nerfed Drukhari against everything. As has been pointed out by everyobody with the Cultist price increase to 5ppm, making your best choice worse doesn't make the bad choices better, it just makes you worse all round. Dark Lances are spectacular against T7, 3+ armour vehicles (so most Marine vehicles but things like Hammerheads and Fire Prisms as well) but get considerably worse when you bump up to T8 and worse still with invulns added in, to the point where they're just not worth taking. Every so often I'll run my Ravagers with tripple Dark Lances, just because I want my anti-armour gun boats to feel like they have proper anti-tank guns, but they always underperform and feel closer to a liability than anything else.

I wouldn't be completely against Dissintegrators going down to D1, but they'd need to be cheaper as you've just halved the damage output of your dedicated gunboat from 18 to 9, and it would require a corresponding buff to Dark Lances, Dark Scythes, Void Lances and Heat Lances so that they are actually usable against Knights and the like.

Grotesques have 4W btw, and poison and Shredders can be rather effective against them, same goes for Wraiths and Bullgryns, though you need to kill the Pyschic support for those first.

**Galef**

Daedalus81 wrote:
First, as an aside, can we kick out the "Tzaangors and other models get this" comments? It said Heretic Astartes not HERETIC ASTARTES. This is the same stupid crap we went through with Sisters. It's a rule for MARINES.

Agree it should just be for the Marines, but the issue with Sisters/Guard not getting BD was resolved by them not having the Keyword. Cultists/Poxwalkers/Tzaangors DO have the keyword that Shock Assault will be granted for. So in order to not grant it to those units, it needs to be specifically excluded from them

Or not. They're just chaff after all. Tzaangor bomb is really the strong assault combo

-

**Xenomancers**

Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.

**Insectum7**

Salamanders units with hidden Thunder Hammers get pretty nasty.

**Bharring**

I don't think it's a meta-changer. I don't think it'll be the focal point of lists. But I do think it's a great change.

It's not going to make anything Loyalist suddenly amazing.

Assault Marines just went from straight-out-trash to mostly-useless - quite a big jump.

But the big change will be incidentals. That Tac squad that just shot up your chaff is going to charge - and now it does twice as much as it used to do. Which means higher chances of mopping up cleanly. It won't make them into CC units, but the extra attacks will add some weight.

**ERJAK**

Quasistellar wrote:
Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.

Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!

It's not tied to the astartes keyword, it's part of the 'angels of death' rule marines have. Same with Bolter discipline and they shall know no fear.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galef wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
First, as an aside, can we kick out the "Tzaangors and other models get this" comments? It said Heretic Astartes not HERETIC ASTARTES. This is the same stupid crap we went through with Sisters. It's a rule for MARINES.

Agree it should just be for the Marines, but the issue with Sisters/Guard not getting BD was resolved by them not having the Keyword. Cultists/Poxwalkers/Tzaangors DO have the keyword that Shock Assault will be granted for. So in order to not grant it to those units, it needs to be specifically excluded from them

Or not. They're just chaff after all. Tzaangor bomb is really the strong assault combo

-

Like I said, it's not tied to the keyword. It's tied to each faction's 'umbrella' rule that is on their datasheets.

**Bharring**

Note that the faction 'umbrella' rules are usually not on *every* unit in the book. So maybe they were smart about it's application? We won't know until the book's available (leak or otherwise).

**Daedalus81**

Galef wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
First, as an aside, can we kick out the "Tzaangors and other models get this" comments? It said Heretic Astartes not HERETIC ASTARTES. This is the same stupid crap we went through with Sisters. It's a rule for MARINES.

Agree it should just be for the Marines, but the issue with Sisters/Guard not getting BD was resolved by them not having the Keyword. Cultists/Poxwalkers/Tzaangors DO have the keyword that Shock Assault will be granted for. So in order to not grant it to those units, it needs to be specifically excluded from them

Or not. They're just chaff after all. Tzaangor bomb is really the strong assault combo

-

The rules makes zero reference to keywords.

**Kanluwen**

They said the rule is called "Angels of Death". We already saw it on one of the promo models that got shown off this year.

To help facilitate this on the tabletop, the universal traits of the Space Marines have been combined into a new catch-all ability called Angels of Death, which incorporates the usual suspects – And They Shall Know No Fear and Bolter Discipline – as well as this cheeky little number…

**Daedalus81**

Martel732 wrote:
I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.

If you're hitting Bulls with Thunderhammers and you get 50% more swings you're going to kill 50% more than you did previously.

**Reemule**

Xenomancers wrote:
Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.

Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.

**Quasistellar**

@Daedalus : True, it doesn’t. We’ll burn that bridge when we get to it, lol.

**Martel732**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.

If you're hitting Bulls with Thunderhammers and you get 50% more swings you're going to kill 50% more than you did previously.

50% of a tiny number is still tiny. Thats the problem. Good units wont care about this, and marines melt when the enemy counters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reemule wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.

Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.

I'd say they rarely make it. Even the much-maligned lance cuts them to ribbons. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.

**Reemule**

Martel732 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reemule wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.

Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.

I'd say they rarely make it. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.

I would agree rarely is a better description. But then it further goes to invalidate his post, as even rarely used abilities have some cost.

**Elbows**

So where does this leave CSM? They don't have a rule for marine-only units like the normal Marines do. Since Angels of Death is loyalist marines, they'd have trouble finding a way to turn it on for CSM (and their various branches).

**Martel732**

Do they need it? They have a considerably better win rate atm.

**Kanluwen**

Elbows wrote:
So where does this leave CSM? They don't have a rule for marine-only units like the normal Marines do. Since Angels of Death is loyalist marines, they'd have trouble finding a way to turn it on for CSM (and their various branches).

Not really.

"Does it have Marine in the name? Then it gets Angels of Death!"

**Apple Peel**

Martel732 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.

If you're hitting Bulls with Thunderhammers and you get 50% more swings you're going to kill 50% more than you did previously.

50% of a tiny number is still tiny. Thats the problem. Good units wont care about this, and marines melt when the enemy counters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reemule wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.

Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.

I'd say they rarely make it. Even the much-maligned lance cuts them to ribbons. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.

Remember how we talked about the triple repulsor double redemptor BA list that did really well? I don’t remember if I told you exactly how it operated, but the kitted the repulsors protected by intercessors drew most of the enemy’s fire while redemptors and a smash captain did big melee on enemy knights.

**Xenomancers**

Reemule wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reemule wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.

Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.

I'd say they rarely make it. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.

I would agree rarely is a better description. But then it further goes to invalidate his post, as even rarely used abilities have some cost.

Did anyone read what I said and think it literally never happens or that it can't happen? Jezz dude. Mine have made it a few times and at that point it was just being thrown out to maybe explode for d6 mortal wounds. The problem with the unit is that is is not equipt to make CC - it's to slow. The value of it's CC stats are pretty low - you could literally double them and it doesn't make the dread much better.

Most marine units are like that. Slow. Slow and CC doesn't work. Marines need druability or more speed - not more cc attacks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple Peel wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'n saying it won't make a real difference. Guard still die, plaguebearers, bulls, wraiths, etc still live.

If you're hitting Bulls with Thunderhammers and you get 50% more swings you're going to kill 50% more than you did previously.

50% of a tiny number is still tiny. Thats the problem. Good units wont care about this, and marines melt when the enemy counters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reemule wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Ultimately if durability is your problem. Added CC stats are not going to do anything fro you. For example. Redemptor dread never makes CC anyways - you could give it 10 CC attacks and it really wouldn't be worth much more than it is now.

Maybe you should rethink your posts. When you say stuff like "redemptors never make it to CC anyway" it makes people think your not placing any thought before you type.

I'd say they rarely make it. Even the much-maligned lance cuts them to ribbons. Or they end up fighting chaff/ demons.

Remember how we talked about the triple repulsor double redemptor BA list that did really well? I don’t remember if I told you exactly how it operated, but the kitted the repulsors protected by intercessors drew most of the enemy’s fire while redemptors and a smash captain did big melee on enemy knights.

I've been doing tripple redemptor a lot. They still don't make CC much.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
Salamanders units with hidden Thunder Hammers get pretty nasty.

Not really when they are hitting on 4's - though it is likely we are getting compeltely redeisned chapter tactics. From the sounds of it most chapter tactics will be a 2 parter and they are making custom chapter tactics for custom chapters to be legal in mathed play.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Imateria wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Let's get a Drukhari player's opinion on that. As I just said, they don't feel too strong vs demons or IG or Nids, or anyone else. Just marines, really. That seems like a marine problem, not a weapon problem.

Take away D2 and the bulls, grots, and wraiths get even more problematic.

Those are all W3 though.

I'd still rather kill them in two shots than three. Especially through an invuln.

For this specific example it would certainly help Primaris infantry against Drukhari, but thats because you've effectively nerfed Drukhari against everything. As has been pointed out by everyobody with the Cultist price increase to 5ppm, making your best choice worse doesn't make the bad choices better, it just makes you worse all round. Dark Lances are spectacular against T7, 3+ armour vehicles (so most Marine vehicles but things like Hammerheads and Fire Prisms as well) but get considerably worse when you bump up to T8 and worse still with invulns added in, to the point where they're just not worth taking. Every so often I'll run my Ravagers with tripple Dark Lances, just because I want my anti-armour gun boats to feel like they have proper anti-tank guns, but they always underperform and feel closer to a liability than anything else.

I wouldn't be completely against Dissintegrators going down to D1, but they'd need to be cheaper as you've just halved the damage output of your dedicated gunboat from 18 to 9, and it would require a corresponding buff to Dark Lances, Dark Scythes, Void Lances and Heat Lances so that they are actually usable against Knights and the like.

Grotesques have 4W btw, and poison and Shredders can be rather effective against them, same goes for Wraiths and Bullgryns, though you need to kill the Pyschic support for those first.

Disintegrators don't deserve a point cut going to D1. That's one of the most absurd things I've ever read.

**Elbows**

Kanluwen wrote:
Elbows wrote:
So where does this leave CSM? They don't have a rule for marine-only units like the normal Marines do. Since Angels of Death is loyalist marines, they'd have trouble finding a way to turn it on for CSM (and their various branches).

Not really.

"Does it have Marine in the name? Then it gets Angels of Death!"

But then you'd be giving "they shall know no fear" to CSM units, etc. I will chuckle though if CSM magically don't get it.

**Reemule**

Xenomancers wrote:

Did anyone read what I said and think it literally never happens or that it can't happen? Jezz dude. .

Yeah. Your constant spin job to try to make a point when one doesn't exist devalues your posts. Please stop it. Your better than that. Lay out the facts clearly, then make your observations. It will go much better for you.

**Luke_Prowler**

I posted some math in the News & Rumors thread, reposting here

Luke_Prowler wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Shock assault is very interesting. Though there are few, there are a couple of very potent melee units across both loyal and chaos, they have just become even more deadly.

A big death company unit can all of a sudden give ork boys a run for their money in terms of number of attacks.

Even a basic assault squad now has the potential to trade even with other melee equipped units. A full squad of 10 assault marines with jump packs gets you 22 ork slugga boyz. Since the AM will have the movement to get in without risk of getting shot with sluggers, they can down (on average) 1.85 boyz with their pistols (10*2/3*1/2*5/6), and then charge. They get overwatched against 20 sluggas (20*1/6*1/2* for .65 wounds on the marines. (we're rounding up for the sake of simplicity). Since the boy mob still has 20 models in it the ork player might be tempted to use counter attack to save the squad, but that's 2 CP being used to do that and orks lists are very CP hungry. Going first, the AM kill 7.78 orks (28*2/3*1/3*5/6), then the orks attacks for 4.26 dead marines. In total, that's 9.63 (10) dead boyz for 70 points vs 4.91 (5) dead marines for 80 points. This is still a trade down, but it's much better that they would have done previously against a unit that's generally considered a much heavier melee unit. And if there isn't a larger mob around to benefit from Mob Rule, another 1.7 gets lost to fleeing and now that's 11.33 (11) lost for 77 vs 80 trade off. Against something much lighter (shoota boyz, tau strike teams, guardsmen) or more expensive with worse melee (Necron warriors, sisters of battle, other space marines) and you're looking much better. And this is one of the worse choices in the codex.

Assuming no other buffs, Marine assault units are much more useful and Maine ranged units can threaten lighter units that get too close. If they do make Chapter Tactics better, or if there is other price drops, there could be a lot of hidden gems in this new codex.

However, to add some more points to the discussion. Terminators actually have as many attacks in melee as meganobz, which is rough already considering the power klaw costs more. For all the complaining about other inv saves on vehicles, hamminators are looking very threatening for being able to crush other people's elite units. Getting off that charge means less attacks back, and with less attacks the less likely that critical one gets through

Meanwhile, the math I did was for Assault Squads. For VV? for two points more you get two extra attacks with dual chainsword. that's going from roughly trading with choppa boyz to winning the combat (14 dead orks on the charge, 4 dead VV back, 96 vs 72 points. 6.5 orks flee without a back up unit nearby and that's 3-4 boys and a nob wondering what the heck just happened and about to lose in the next fight phase.

Unfortunately, I actually question if this would actually result in more assault units being taken. While units like Assault Squads, Vanguards, and Terminators would benefit, Marine players seem melee-phobic even at the best of times.

**Tibs Ironblood**

I really like this new rule. The extra attack will go a long way in buffing their offensive output. Intercessors get 50% more attacks which is great for example. It's even better though on actual melee units like dreadnoughts and characters who will benefit a lot from an additional beefy attack. Primaris sergeants with power fists are in fashion even doubly so veteran ones if you have the CPs for it. A really scary one would be a veteran intercessor power fist salamander sergeant. Five attacks on the first round of combat re-rolling 1 hit and 1 wound. That's no joke.

**the_scotsman**

Well, my Deathwatch is really happy. We have army-wide Stormshield and 2+ save access too, so it's not like my marines have ever felt particularly not durable.

I just get to feel better about using HThs like the dingus I am. I use so many of those totally not worth it suckers lol.

**G00fySmiley**

I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing. I rarely play my marines since I am still giddy abotu my orks but plan to try the new iron hands rules for my SM army and am lookign forward to them.

the extra attack I am already seeing as a big step. often I would hit a screen and they coudl just fall back 2-3 surviving models and shift thigns back. knocking out screens in full shoudl help my blue tide army do better. (I run basically a maxed list of as many power armor bodies as i can pull off often pure tac marines, not optimized tournament level but I find it fun, ad people usually do not expect it.)

**Insectum7**

G00fySmiley wrote:
I am failing to see how getting an extra attack at no cost is anything but a good thing.

Right? I think it's great.

Now, pure speculation here. . . . but what if ATSKNF got a bump that they haven't mentioned yet. That'd be dope.

**pm713**

Feels like it doesn't do anything to stop cheese lists smashing marines but it hurts me to be honest. Maybe I'm just out of date on the competitive builds.

**Insectum7**

pm713 wrote:
Feels like it doesn't do anything to stop cheese lists smashing marines but it hurts me to be honest. Maybe I'm just out of date on the competitive builds.

Heh, it's GWs response to everyone comparing SM vs. Guard, even though that's not really a hardship in the competetive sense.