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I just built 15 Plague Marines with CC weapons (knives, axes, flails) and was about to build 15 Possessed. Let's just say I'm pretty happy about Shock assault
I'm even thinking about using Powerfists for the first time this edition (up until now I was happy that I had them magnetized and used axes or swords in 8th instead).

Martel732 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Oof yeah, do Poxwalkers and cultists really still get Heretic Astartes keyword? Yikes.

Still overall I think the +1 attack is good thing. I’m glad they’re adding stuff to marines to make them worth their points instead of just lowering the points!

I think that's what most people wanted, but its definitely the harder route. This is a good rule, I think, but doesn't address durability problems.

I don't think it's the right route, but it's a route. I don't like the adding of random special rules to marines to make them special and worth three guardsmen. I'm still more in favor of reducing the cost to an appropriate level for a no-special-rule statline.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Odd side effect I've noticed: If this applies to Heretic Astartes keyword, Cultists and Pox Walkers will also get this bonus. Not sure how I feel about that

Pretty sure you're allowed to think that's dumb. As a Chaos player I think it would be pretty dumb. They could tie it to the ability to use Legion traits and that would mostly clean it up. Sadly DG and TS don't technically have proper 'Legion Traits' or at least they're not called out as such, so they'd probably need to do something special for them.

Other than that, it's all conjecture until we see the PDF.

TS legion trait is +6 range on their psychic powers and smiting not degrading. It's pretty dang good. DG probably have the overall best legion/army trait in the game - 5+ FNP most of their vheicals get it too. It's just not called a legion trait I guess is what you are saying. They certainly don't also need a trait on top of what they already get. They should get access to these astartes rules like +1 attack on the charge and such - they are indeed astartes.


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Martel732 wrote:
As I said, it's a marine problem, not a Drukhari problem.

It is an armor save problem. Armor is a terrible stat because it is incredibly easy to ignore AND is still expensive while it's being ignored.

 Xenomancers wrote:
TS legion trait is +6 range on their psychic powers and smiting not degrading. It's pretty dang good. DG probably have the overall best legion/army trait in the game - 5+ FNP most of their vheicals get it too. It's just not called a legion trait I guess is what you are saying. They certainly don't also need a trait on top of what they already get. They should get access to these astartes rules like +1 attack on the charge and such - they are indeed astartes.

I agree, but if you look specifically at the codices it is not *specifically* (and I am being terribly pedantic here) called out as a Legion trait in either case. I suspect they won't want this to apply to Tzaangors, Cultists, and Pox Walkers, so they'll probably do something a bit more specific in the case of those two legions.

Also, to clarify, I love the TS/DG legion traits, absolutely no complaints.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
TS legion trait is +6 range on their psychic powers and smiting not degrading. It's pretty dang good. DG probably have the overall best legion/army trait in the game - 5+ FNP most of their vheicals get it too. It's just not called a legion trait I guess is what you are saying. They certainly don't also need a trait on top of what they already get. They should get access to these astartes rules like +1 attack on the charge and such - they are indeed astartes.

I agree, but if you look specifically at the codices it is not *specifically* (and I am being terribly pedantic here) called out as a Legion trait in either case. I suspect they won't want this to apply to Tzaangors, Cultists, and Pox Walkers, so they'll probably do something a bit more specific in the case of those two legions.

Also, to clarify, I love the TS/DG legion traits, absolutely no complaints.

I think only your power armor marine types are going to get the choas "angels of death" ability. The real question - what will they call it. It will include death to the false emperor. I'd wager it will be called - hertical "something". Kind of worrisome though. Don't Tzzangors already get DTTFE?

DG trait is rapid fire on 18'' and ignoring -1 to hit for heavy and assault.
Disgustingly resilient is not a legion tactic, it's a built in special rule you pay points for.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
DG trait is rapid fire on 18'' and ignoring -1 to hit for heavy and assault.
Disgustingly resilient is not a legion tactic, it's a built in special rule you pay points for.

TY for the clarification. Point we were making is that these are army specific rules. It doesn't really mater what they call them. What matters is how they are applied to the units.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think only your power armor marine types are going to get the choas "angels of death" ability. The real question - what will they call it. It will include death to the false emperor. I'd wager it will be called - hertical "something". Kind of worrisome though. Don't Tzzangors already get DTTFE?

No, they don't get DTTFE. The ability should definitely be limited to power armor marines, how they accomplish that is the question. Getting an extra attack on Rubrics and Plague Marines will not suck though.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think only your power armor marine types are going to get the choas "angels of death" ability. The real question - what will they call it. It will include death to the false emperor. I'd wager it will be called - hertical "something". Kind of worrisome though. Don't Tzzangors already get DTTFE?

No, they don't get DTTFE. The ability should definitely be limited to power armor marines, how they accomplish that is the question. Getting an extra attack on Rubrics and Plague Marines will not suck though.

Yea an extra staff swing at the very least is quite useful. The real win for me is with Scarabs. Always on AP2 bolters and 50% more melee swings is ace.

Even though Rubrics certainly could need the help in-game, fluffwize they might be the only astartes that actually are not known to do/ capable of a shock assault, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Ikol wrote:

The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.

If one weapon gets pretty much always chosen over the other options it means the internal balance is crap and something should be changed. They can slightly buff Dark Lances and Heat Lances and nerf the Disintegrators (be this via an actual rule changes or point costs) so that there is actually a reason for taking all of these weapons.

The Dissy doesn't NEED to pull any other duties than anti-infantry either. D1 is perfectly fine for a 15 point weapon with S5 Ap-3 Assault 3

Unfortunately for me, the Dissies do NEED to pull double duty thanks to our other anti tank options being so horrifyingly laclustre. Nerf the Dissintegrator in a vacuum and yes, Primaris Marines and other multi wound infantry models will hold up better against them, but you've now just left Drukhari without any decent anti-tank options at all which is a complete joke. So like I said previously, I'm fine with the idea of Dissintegrators going D1, but a lot of our other options need to get significant changes to be useful.

Frankly, this is a game wide problem, if Dissies need to go to D1, then so do Autocannons (heck, all atuocannon varients should be dropped by -1D), HYMP, HBC, Starcannons, Impaler Cannons, Loota's, Gauss Cannons (the S6, D3 damage gun on Destroyers) and Imperial Plasma (and I assume Chaos plasma) needs a rework, it should not be better than xenos plasma in every single way regardless of being overcharged or not. And then the single shot, high strength weapons with random damage need to be buffed, some of them significantly, so that they can actually do their specific job.

Personally I think the answer to fall-back should be along the lines of using Pistol for those that have access to them and its own special rule for those that don't but need it.
You declare that you're going to wimp out I shoot/attack you for being a wimp.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What does the Veteran thing do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just from a fluff perspective (I get that's not everyone's bag) it feels right.

They're now more shooty than the average troop. They're now more hitty than the average troop.

It makes Astartes feel more dangerous, especially as certain HTH specialists (Striking Scorpions, anyone without power weapons) might be thinking twice before charging in, because in that first round, an average sized squad of Marines can fight like devils. Makes the attrition thing harder, and arguably more cinematic to achieve?

it gets even nastier depending on the chapter. rush into Ultramarines, they fight like demons, pull back and then shoot you. White scars meanwhile can fallback and charge, maximizing their number of attacks. which could really put the pain on you.

so yeah Agreed. Space Marines aren't going to be suddenly capable of killing the close combat monster units out there, but the light skirmisher melee infantry that people sometimes use to tie up a gunline will be MUCH less capable of doing so on Marines

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Ikol wrote:

The Disintegrator is the only weapon in the arsenal that can really deal with heavy Infantry or Monsters, and it just so happens to be alright at Anti-tank. So it gets brought in volume.

If one weapon gets pretty much always chosen over the other options it means the internal balance is crap and something should be changed. They can slightly buff Dark Lances and Heat Lances and nerf the Disintegrators (be this via an actual rule changes or point costs) so that there is actually a reason for taking all of these weapons.

The Dissy doesn't NEED to pull any other duties than anti-infantry either. D1 is perfectly fine for a 15 point weapon with S5 Ap-3 Assault 3

If its anti-infantry, DE don't need more of that. We have poison and Wyches and Grotesques and Talos with Chain Flails and Mandrakes and POISON. If its anti-heavy infantry (which it most certainly IS, it definitely needs D2, otherwise it'll be terrible at actually killing heavy infantry. And it's the only gun that actually fills that role.

It doesn't need to be anti-tank, but a fact of 8th edition is that anti-heavy infantry and anti-tank have quite a bit of overlap. So unless the dedicated anti-tank seriously out-performs the anti-heavy, you're better off bringing one that can do both.

I can live with losing intercessors or infiltrators, but the way they have price gravis/hellblaster units, primaris are far too weak to 2 damage. It's not a Drukhari problem, because I've humbled many primaris now with suppressors.

D1 can be a valid anti-heavy infantry weapon, so long as you have eneugh shots.

Martel732 wrote:
I can live with losing intercessors or infiltrators, but the way they have price gravis/hellblaster units, primaris are far too weak to 2 damage. It's not a Drukhari problem, because I've humbled many primaris now with suppressors.

My Ork Boyz are far too weak to 1 damage.


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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Even though Rubrics certainly could need the help in-game, fluffwize they might be the only astartes that actually are not known to do/ capable of a shock assault, right?

Why play Rubrics when you can get a primaris intercessor that is better than a Rubric in every single way?
+1 Wound
+2 Attacks
+12" range
+DakkaDakkaDakkav2Improved
+1 BS and WS OR Ignore terrain modifiers

The codex creep is fething ridiculous.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can live with losing intercessors or infiltrators, but the way they have price gravis/hellblaster units, primaris are far too weak to 2 damage. It's not a Drukhari problem, because I've humbled many primaris now with suppressors.

My Ork Boyz are far too weak to 1 damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Even though Rubrics certainly could need the help in-game, fluffwize they might be the only astartes that actually are not known to do/ capable of a shock assault, right?

Why play Rubrics when you can get a primaris intercessor that is better than a Rubric in every single way?
+1 Wound
+2 Attacks
+12" range
+DakkaDakkaDakkav2Improved
+1 BS and WS OR Ignore terrain modifiers

The codex creep is fething ridiculous.

But that is a patently false statement to say better in every way.

It's only 6" more.
They're not psykers and so cannot cast or dispel.
They dont get a bonus to their save against d1.
They dont have a 5++.
Its +1A since rubrics go up, too.

The chapter tactics are going to vary.

I'm going to be on a 3+ in cover vs AP2 bolt rifles.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can live with losing intercessors or infiltrators, but the way they have price gravis/hellblaster units, primaris are far too weak to 2 damage. It's not a Drukhari problem, because I've humbled many primaris now with suppressors.

My Ork Boyz are far too weak to 1 damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Even though Rubrics certainly could need the help in-game, fluffwize they might be the only astartes that actually are not known to do/ capable of a shock assault, right?

Why play Rubrics when you can get a primaris intercessor that is better than a Rubric in every single way?
+1 Wound
+2 Attacks
+12" range
+DakkaDakkaDakkav2Improved
+1 BS and WS OR Ignore terrain modifiers

The codex creep is fething ridiculous.

But that is a patently false statement to say better in every way.

It's only 6" more.
They're not psykers and so cannot cast or dispel.
They dont get a bonus to their save against d1.
They dont have a 5++.
Its +1A since rubrics go up, too.

The chapter tactics are going to vary.

I'm going to be on a 3+ in cover vs AP2 bolt rifles.

Dont forget marines may also have AP -1 in melee

Marines can also:
- Get a bonus save against ALL Ap1 weaponry, and a 6++
- Get DakkaDakkaDakkaV2Improved and WS/BS+1 OR Ignore terrain

except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?

BrianDavion wrote:
except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?

Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?

Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.

It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.

...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?

Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.

It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.

...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.

And, Ironically, having parts of your body swapped out for bionics (Iron Hands) makes you more resilient than a walking suit of armor.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?

Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.

It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.

...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.

And, Ironically, having parts of your body swapped out for bionics (Iron Hands) makes you more resilient than a walking suit of armor.

Pah we all knew that IW were just good enough to dig away the enemies sandcastle and nothing more
It ain't like they also replace mutations etc with bionics

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?

Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.

It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.

...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.

And, Ironically, having parts of your body swapped out for bionics (Iron Hands) makes you more resilient than a walking suit of armor.

fancy that, replacing the weak fleshy bits under a suit of armor, with stronger metal makes you tougher,

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except none of that is all at once. it's worth noting that the -1 AP to physical attacks is proably, TBH mostly a theoretical that will rarely turn up. how many people are gonna surrender the -1 AP on their bolters to get -1 AP on chainswords?

Choose your poison.
I'm highlighting that Intercessors can be made "better" than rubrics in a myriad of ways.

It's funny, the 10000 + year veteran gets beaten by a newby.

...
Reminds me on the RC trait compared to all other legion traits.

And, Ironically, having parts of your body swapped out for bionics (Iron Hands) makes you more resilient than a walking suit of armor.

fancy that, replacing the weak fleshy bits under a suit of armor, with stronger metal makes you tougher,

Pah we all knew that IW were just good enough to dig away the enemies sandcastle and nothing more
It ain't like they also replace mutations etc with bionics

well thats beside the point, I mean if *I* was writing a revised list of legion tactics, Iron Warriors would get the 6++ of Iron warriors to reflect their love of cybernetics, combined with the ignore cover part Imperial Fists get,

that'd be a nasty combo.

So, I'm trying to get my head around what all a basic marine will get with this new codex.

They'll basically have +1A from shock assault, Bolter Discipline, an AP buff of some sort depending on turn/weapon type, ATSKNF, and some upgraded Chapter Tactics with some mix & match shennanigans? Anything else?

It's an impressive amount of stuff, and a lot of special rules to keep track of. I'm hoping it'll help some of the more classic/standard units, though I suspect a lot of this will just reinforce what's already good.

We'll see how it plays out, I'm glad that some of these are being applied to other marine books. I can only hope they redo Chaos Marines with as much love.

All that said, looking at the new units, the Warsuit is...dumb. How many different Dreadnought-esque units do we need?

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, I'm trying to get my head around what all a basic marine will get with this new codex.

They'll basically have +1A from shock assault, Bolter Discipline, an AP buff of some sort depending on turn/weapon type, ATSKNF, and some upgraded Chapter Tactics with some mix & match shennanigans? Anything else?

It's an impressive amount of stuff, and a lot of special rules to keep track of. I'm hoping it'll help some of the more classic/standard units, though I suspect a lot of this will just reinforce what's already good.

We'll see how it plays out, I'm glad that some of these are being applied to other marine books. I can only hope they redo Chaos Marines with as much love.

All that said, looking at the new units, the Warsuit is...dumb. How many different Dreadnought-esque units do we need?

But allready got "updated", we therefore have no right to complain.

the special rules I don't mind, a lot of factions have a ton of special rules, and GW has historicly avoided it with Marines (perhaps for fear of making the "newbie army" too complex) but the special rules WORK for Marines, it brings them more in line with the terrifyingly elite warriors they're depicted as. I know some people just think GW should just dropping the point cost of Marine units, but there comes a time when that just makes Marines play like "guard with a better AC"

as for chaos, I imagine once people get a look at the CT design rules people'll be housing ruling improved legion tactics.