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Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/09 23:25:18


Post by: Ishagu


He now costs 330 points but the re roll wound aura only applies to rolls of 1.

The hits now apply to all rolls and not just misses, same as auras like Cawl's.

Big nerf however. Calgar and a Lieutenant are by far the better choice as they fill mandatory HQ slots.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 00:59:04


Post by: JNAProductions


Do you have a source? I saw the pics, and they seem pretty legit, but I'm interested in seeing where they come from.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:04:44


Post by: Crimson


This is excellent news!


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:08:50


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Awesome, maybe we'll see Ultramarines not running him every friggin game now


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:13:17


Post by: flandarz


Pretty expensive, but rerolling all to-hit rolls is much better than just misses, since (if I recall correctly) you can only reroll misses before Modifiers are added. Makes it a lot easier to hit all those -2 or more units.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:13:37


Post by: Xenomancers


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Awesome, maybe we'll see Ultramarines not running him every friggin game now

Riiiight...like why wouldn't you use your best unit?


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:20:20


Post by: HoundsofDemos


 Xenomancers wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Awesome, maybe we'll see Ultramarines not running him every friggin game now

Riiiight...like why wouldn't you use your best unit?


Why I would usually agree with this, for something like a primarch I agree with xenomancer. A demi god should be a unit that is used sparely for special occasions or the climax of a large campaign. Having him in every game just feels wrong to me.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:24:03


Post by: Lemondish


Amazing news


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:27:56


Post by: Daedalus81


This makes me perfectly ok with the changes.

I am relatively confident GW have this under control.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:40:37


Post by: Xenomancers


HoundsofDemos wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Awesome, maybe we'll see Ultramarines not running him every friggin game now

Riiiight...like why wouldn't you use your best unit?


Why I would usually agree with this, for something like a primarch I agree with xenomancer. A demi god should be a unit that is used sparely for special occasions or the climax of a large campaign. Having him in every game just feels wrong to me.
Now it's calgar every game. Nothing changes. Best unit available is used. Except now it's not ultras that people are going to spam on you - it's gonna be iron hands. Maybe we should nerf infantry squads cause almost every imperial list includes them (they actually should). I still think Ultras can get the job done - their special tactical doctrine combined with ignoring penalties for moving and shooting will be a very good chance of pace for me. This gman nerf could have been a little less harsh though. I am fine with losing the wounds aura but the whole aura should have been made 12 " so there is an actual reason to bring him.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:42:49


Post by: BrianDavion


One thing to remeber is Gulliman is, whatever else, a complete beast up close. and now Ultrmarines are going to be enchouraged to run much more mobile battlelines. Gulliman will, more reliably see close combat


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 01:59:01


Post by: Crazyterran


 Xenomancers wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Awesome, maybe we'll see Ultramarines not running him every friggin game now

Riiiight...like why wouldn't you use your best unit?


Why I would usually agree with this, for something like a primarch I agree with xenomancer. A demi god should be a unit that is used sparely for special occasions or the climax of a large campaign. Having him in every game just feels wrong to me.
Now it's calgar every game. Nothing changes. Best unit available is used. Except now it's not ultras that people are going to spam on you - it's gonna be iron hands. Maybe we should nerf infantry squads cause almost every imperial list includes them (they actually should). I still think Ultras can get the job done - their special tactical doctrine combined with ignoring penalties for moving and shooting will be a very good chance of pace for me. This gman nerf could have been a little less harsh though. I am fine with losing the wounds aura but the whole aura should have been made 12 " so there is an actual reason to bring him.


Could be an Aura increase Warlord Trait for UM that Guilliman gets.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 02:00:52


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Xenomancers wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Awesome, maybe we'll see Ultramarines not running him every friggin game now

Riiiight...like why wouldn't you use your best unit?


Why I would usually agree with this, for something like a primarch I agree with xenomancer. A demi god should be a unit that is used sparely for special occasions or the climax of a large campaign. Having him in every game just feels wrong to me.
Now it's calgar every game. Nothing changes. Best unit available is used. Except now it's not ultras that people are going to spam on you - it's gonna be iron hands. Maybe we should nerf infantry squads cause almost every imperial list includes them (they actually should). I still think Ultras can get the job done - their special tactical doctrine combined with ignoring penalties for moving and shooting will be a very good chance of pace for me. This gman nerf could have been a little less harsh though. I am fine with losing the wounds aura but the whole aura should have been made 12 " so there is an actual reason to bring him.

Honestly I just want to see less named characters in lists and more generic ones. I agree infantry squads pop up way too much because the allied rules are busted, but I'd be saying the same thing if Marneus or Sicarius or whoever showed up in every single list. I just don't like every game being with a named character because it just kind of cheapens the experience.

As for guilleman specifically, hopefully being toned down will vary up the lists we see. I should've been more specific there. I don't want to see Smurfs thrown under the bus (much) but I would like to see a list that isn't just clumping as much stuff within 6" of guilleman as possible. Especially if it lets guilleman have a specific role that encourages him to lead from the front and bust some heads. It felt really weird to see him just sitting back some games as a reroll aura.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 02:16:39


Post by: Xenomancers


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Awesome, maybe we'll see Ultramarines not running him every friggin game now

Riiiight...like why wouldn't you use your best unit?


Why I would usually agree with this, for something like a primarch I agree with xenomancer. A demi god should be a unit that is used sparely for special occasions or the climax of a large campaign. Having him in every game just feels wrong to me.
Now it's calgar every game. Nothing changes. Best unit available is used. Except now it's not ultras that people are going to spam on you - it's gonna be iron hands. Maybe we should nerf infantry squads cause almost every imperial list includes them (they actually should). I still think Ultras can get the job done - their special tactical doctrine combined with ignoring penalties for moving and shooting will be a very good chance of pace for me. This gman nerf could have been a little less harsh though. I am fine with losing the wounds aura but the whole aura should have been made 12 " so there is an actual reason to bring him.

Honestly I just want to see less named characters in lists and more generic ones. I agree infantry squads pop up way too much because the allied rules are busted, but I'd be saying the same thing if Marneus or Sicarius or whoever showed up in every single list. I just don't like every game being with a named character because it just kind of cheapens the experience.

As for guilleman specifically, hopefully being toned down will vary up the lists we see. I should've been more specific there. I don't want to see Smurfs thrown under the bus (much) but I would like to see a list that isn't just clumping as much stuff within 6" of guilleman as possible. Especially if it lets guilleman have a specific role that encourages him to lead from the front and bust some heads. It felt really weird to see him just sitting back some games as a reroll aura.
As long as a reroll all hits aura exists. The tactics will remain roughly the same. At least ultras will be the more mobile of the marine breeds with movement penalties being ignored.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to remeber is Gulliman is, whatever else, a complete beast up close. and now Ultrmarines are going to be enchouraged to run much more mobile battlelines. Gulliman will, more reliably see close combat
Yeah hes still a beast. 7 attacks now too. Gonna be hard to justify his cost - esp if all CM get reroll all hit not fail hits auras. Bringing Gman will mean 1 less repulsor in your list and with him not doing anytthing special anymore that is gonna be a tough pill to swallow.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 04:04:14


Post by: Spoletta


If this is true then this time i have to give it to GW, they really hit the right spots.

Nerfed the 2 worst offenders in the marines lists (Raven guard trait and Gman), and powered up everything else. Now i can see marine lists being strong, fluffy and reasonably balanced.

With oldGman the amount of ultra bolters around would have been a mess, like this instead you are no longer rewarded for shooting the wrong weapon at the wrong target and you will need to create a well rounded force capable of capitalizing on all 3 doctrines.

Well done.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 04:26:06


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoletta wrote:


With oldGman the amount of ultra bolters around would have been a mess, like this instead you are no longer rewarded for shooting the wrong weapon at the wrong target and you will need to create a well rounded force capable of capitalizing on all 3 doctrines.

Well done.


Precisely this.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 05:01:03


Post by: Breton


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Awesome, maybe we'll see Ultramarines not running him every friggin game now


I wasn't usually running him now, I was already running Calgar/LT

Heck, this might make me start running him with Telion and Tiggy or something.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 07:56:22


Post by: Ishagu


His cost is actually 350***

I actually think he's too expensive now. If he was a HQ and not a LoW I'd be more supportive.

The problem is you can get the same auras for cheaper. And yes, he is good in combat however he's also a monster that can't ride in a vehicle, get around fast or deploy outside of normal restrictions.

He does get Chapter Tactics and Angels of Death which is a slight improvement, and the Hand of Dominion is now Damage 4.

Yes, some niche' uses with Knights aren't affected but he's less useful with Astartes.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 08:36:35


Post by: Breton


Breton wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
His cost is actually 350.

I actually think he's too expensive now. If he was a HQ and not a LoW I'd be more supportive.

The problem is you can get the same auras for cheaper. And yes, he is good in combat however he's also a monster that can't ride in a vehicle, get around fast or deploy outside of normal restrictions.

Yes, some niche' uses with Knights aren't affected but he's less useful with Astartes.


You're not getting a 12" aura for cheaper. 12 inch radius is 450 square inches or so. Even if you're not soup'ing a 6 inch radius is 113 square inches or so, you need 3 captains to cover the same area, Plus Lieutenants. Plus base size is going to add even more.


From the other thread.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 09:08:51


Post by: Ice_can


His reroll 1's to hit is 12 his actual all hits and wounds of 1 in only 6"


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 09:20:24


Post by: Breton


Ice_can wrote:
His reroll 1's to hit is 12 his actual all hits and wounds of 1 in only 6"


So? The aura is 1's to hit for Captains. I'm comparing like to like. AND the Lieutenant. The fact that you get a bonus of all misses within 6" is just that.. a bonus. If I had the price of a generic Chapter Master - that may still be limited to one per Army - I doubt that one Chapter Master and two Captains will be less than 3 Captains - Plus the Lieutenant. You're not suggesting that are you?

Are you disputing the math? Or are you hyper-focused on only the 6 inch bubble to the point of pretending the 12" bubble doesn't exist? We haven't even gotten to the other parts of his aura like the Advance and Charge rolls.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 09:38:33


Post by: TheFleshIsWeak


 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Honestly I just want to see less named characters in lists and more generic ones.


Same.

Personally, I find it depressing that generic characters have had their options stripped to the bone, yet special characters get no end of extra abilities, rules, wargear etc.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 09:40:48


Post by: Ice_can


Breton wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
His reroll 1's to hit is 12 his actual all hits and wounds of 1 in only 6"


So? The aura is 1's to hit for Captains. I'm comparing like to like. AND the Lieutenant. The fact that you get a bonus of all misses within 6" is just that.. a bonus. If I had the price of a generic Chapter Master - that may still be limited to one per Army - I doubt that one Chapter Master and two Captains will be less than 3 Captains - Plus the Lieutenant. You're not suggesting that are you?

Are you disputing the math? Or are you hyper-focused on only the 6 inch bubble to the point of pretending the 12" bubble doesn't exist? We haven't even gotten to the other parts of his aura like the Advance and Charge rolls.

No i was just trying to clarify that he doesn't suddenly have a 12 inch reroll all hits and wounds rolls of 1 aura which is what your post made it sound like.

He rerolls 1 to hit at 12 inches and adds to advance or charge moves.

His actual useful to Ultramarines is the 6 inches of all hits the wounds is now the same as an LT.

It's a good change and I'm happy he is way cheaper as actually having him kick ass is semi viable, but really he lost a lot of his auto include status which is good.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 09:50:28


Post by: Breton


Ice_can wrote:

No i was just trying to clarify that he doesn't suddenly have a 12 inch reroll all hits and wounds rolls of 1 aura which is what your post made it sound like.



I made it sound like he suddenly had a 12 inch reroll all hits and wounds rolls of 1 by comparing his aura to... Captains?

And again, Ultramarines are also IMPERIUM so his use to Ultramarines is ALSO 12". I'm not going to refuse to reroll 1's at 11 inches because I'm mad it's not all hits.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 09:59:05


Post by: Ice_can


Breton wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

No i was just trying to clarify that he doesn't suddenly have a 12 inch reroll all hits and wounds rolls of 1 aura which is what your post made it sound like.



I made it sound like he suddenly had a 12 inch reroll all hits and wounds rolls of 1 by comparing his aura to... Captains?

And again, Ultramarines are also IMPERIUM so his use to Ultramarines is ALSO 12". I'm not going to refuse to reroll 1's at 11 inches because I'm mad it's not all hits.

Or you design your own chapter and can give everyone reroll hits of 1 for rangwd weapons as part of their chapter tactic.
If you don't want to see him on the table fine but you seem overly invested in this.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 10:20:27


Post by: Breton


Ice_can wrote:

Or you design your own chapter and can give everyone reroll hits of 1 for rangwd weapons as part of their chapter tactic.
If you don't want to see him on the table fine but you seem overly invested in this.


What does correcting an incorrect statement about his aura vs how much it costs to get the equivalent have to do with wanting or not wanting him on the table? For that matter, wouldn't proving his area CAN'T be gotten cheaper make people MORE likely to put him on the table?


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 10:25:16


Post by: ThatMG


1) Re-roll hits is better, wounds is worse.
2) I hope the Chapter Master Stratagem gets re-roll hit rolls rather than failed...
3) Personally I don't think this is is nerf, it is actually a buff. Trading failed re-roll wounds for 50 less points +1 D on one weapon.
Not to mention other options revealed in the book. If some main units or Wargear goes down in price as well this only gets better.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/10 11:16:11


Post by: ccs


~
HoundsofDemos wrote:
should be a unit that is used sparely for special occasions
~

Yeah, we call that "Everytime we get together to play".




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
[Honestly I just want to see less named characters in lists and more generic ones. I agree infantry squads pop up way too much because the allied rules are busted, but I'd be saying the same thing if Marneus or Sicarius or whoever showed up in every single list. I just don't like every game being with a named character because it just kind of cheapens the experience.


Well, you can do something about that.
1) Discuss the types of games you want to play with your opponent.
2) Decline games against stuff you don't enjoy playing against/aren't in the mood to face again for the xxx time.



Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 08:27:21


Post by: wuestenfux


Indeed, Guilliman has deserved it.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 19:28:33


Post by: Xenomancers


I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns. Just look at DW winning nothing and probably having superior abilities to buffed marines vs infantry already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


With oldGman the amount of ultra bolters around would have been a mess, like this instead you are no longer rewarded for shooting the wrong weapon at the wrong target and you will need to create a well rounded force capable of capitalizing on all 3 doctrines.

Well done.


Precisely this.
Blame invo saves making the right weapons actually the wrong weapon.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 19:49:49


Post by: Insectum7


 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 19:59:32


Post by: BrianDavion


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:01:12


Post by: catbarf


 Xenomancers wrote:
If anything he deserved buffs.


He got better melee, +1 attack in the first round of combat, will benefit from Doctrines, had his to-hit aura reworded to allow it circumvent to-hit penalties, and got a 50-point reduction.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Flamers now have access to a +3" range chapter tactic, heavy weapons (inc T1 deepstriking meltaguns and heavy flamers) benefit from +1AP in the first turn, and all Marines have better chapter tactics than before.

Bolters got buffed the most but everything across the board has been improved.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:03:25


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Imo that barely makes any sense. Marines with heavy weapons can do plenty of damage, and Grav just got reduced in price and a nasty Strat. Not to mention the UM buff that allows Heavy Weapons to fire without penalty on the move, which I think I saw mentioned somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marines are getting so much right now it's just inconcievable that someone is complaining about relative army power.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:10:17


Post by: BrianDavion


I agree Marines have lots of tools, and even a pure Primaris Army now has solid anti-tank.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:15:07


Post by: Ice_can


 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Imo that barely makes any sense. Marines with heavy weapons can do plenty of damage, and Grav just got reduced in price and a nasty Strat. Not to mention the UM buff that allows Heavy Weapons to fire without penalty on the move, which I think I saw mentioned somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marines are getting so much right now it's just inconcievable that someone is complaining about relative army power.

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:24:05


Post by: Daedalus81


 Xenomancers wrote:
Blame invo saves making the right weapons actually the wrong weapon.


Not really.

Rerolling full wounds on guns that wound on 4s or 5s is a far better increase than rerolling everything on something that wounds on a 2 or 3.

Increasing the AP and quantity of bolter shots would have been prime territory for Bobby to further amp up bolters and make them able to tackle nearly any threat.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:30:45


Post by: Crimson


Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:32:49


Post by: Xenomancers


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Blame invo saves making the right weapons actually the wrong weapon.


Not really.

Rerolling full wounds on guns that wound on 4s or 5s is a far better increase than rerolling everything on something that wounds on a 2 or 3.

Increasing the AP and quantity of bolter shots would have been prime territory for Bobby to further amp up bolters and make them able to tackle nearly any threat.
So what you are saying is. An army that barely accomplished anything. Could have received a big improvement? Fail to see how that would be a big broblem competitively. Heck - they gave us reroll wounds vs a single target with a 6 inch mark and you get it for free (as a relic or WL trait I don't remember) no 400 point tax needed. Probably will be more problematic than Gman ever was.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:33:10


Post by: Ice_can


 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.

100% agree


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:34:18


Post by: Xenomancers


 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.
How is it any more stupid than tau going +1 to wound vs a big target with 2+/3+ to hit reroll 1's with much stronger weapons?


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 20:38:01


Post by: Ice_can


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.
How is it any more stupid than tau going +1 to wound vs a big target with 2+/3+ to hit reroll 1's with much stronger weapons?

Yeah they can hammer 1 target with stacking 5 sucesfull markerlights and strategums, having not moved and hoping that the target doesn't have a -1 to hit.

But as you say every target worth focusing is hiding behind atleast-1 to hit.
Stop trying to deflect onto other codex's and it was no more stupid than Gman 3 killshot preds and 2 dakka repulsors being an army.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 21:17:59


Post by: Insectum7


Ice_can wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Imo that barely makes any sense. Marines with heavy weapons can do plenty of damage, and Grav just got reduced in price and a nasty Strat. Not to mention the UM buff that allows Heavy Weapons to fire without penalty on the move, which I think I saw mentioned somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marines are getting so much right now it's just inconcievable that someone is complaining about relative army power.

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam up to knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

I never went too far down that road myself, so I'm feeling pretty good. But with all the new rules/buffs I can't see it being that difficult, especially for those who are willing to chapter-hop. There's bound to be some combination that gives any sizable collection a reasonable solution, esp with customizeable Chapter Traits.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 21:38:40


Post by: Ice_can


 Insectum7 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Imo that barely makes any sense. Marines with heavy weapons can do plenty of damage, and Grav just got reduced in price and a nasty Strat. Not to mention the UM buff that allows Heavy Weapons to fire without penalty on the move, which I think I saw mentioned somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marines are getting so much right now it's just inconcievable that someone is complaining about relative army power.

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam up to knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

I never went too far down that road myself, so I'm feeling pretty good. But with all the new rules/buffs I can't see it being that difficult, especially for those who are willing to chapter-hop. There's bound to be some combination that gives any sizable collection a reasonable solution, esp with customizeable Chapter Traits.

Oh it's easily the best codex for number of potential builds as long as GW doesn't duck Forgeworld models be not giving them angles of death.

But I do think a lot of people are going to be unhappy with the best way to play being a mix and match of OG and primaris marines.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/11 21:49:29


Post by: fraser1191


I'd say Guilliman was nerfed in the since that you have to use the correct weapons against targets. More or less you just have to set yourself up for wounding on 3s and getting the reroll of 1 as opposed to aiming at undesirable targets knowing you'll get full rerolls anyway


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 00:55:01


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns. Just look at DW winning nothing and probably having superior abilities to buffed marines vs infantry already.


Well lets compare.

GMan: Pre-nerf: 400pts. All imperium units gain +1 to charge, Reroll 1s to hit (shooting AND assault) and reroll failed morale tests if within 12' of girlyman. By taking him you gain 3CP if he is your warlord, Reroll hits AND wounds for all smurf units within 6' of him. Has a 3++ save and if you do kill him he has a 50% chance to come back with D6 wounds. So what is his purpose? He sits with a huge gunline all within 6' of him and lets them UNLOAD on his enemies. It was not at all uncommon to see several vehicles and entire squads of smurfs within 6' of him. He was completely capable of buffing his entire army without trying that hard. IF you ever did get close enough to attack him in CC he was a decent beat stick and could still rely on his 3++ save.

Margaret Thatcher: (Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka) 235pts. So right off the bat 165pts cheaper. He gives +1 attacks to units that charge and are within 6' of him when they activate. Meaning they have to finish their charge within 6' of ghaz. This generally means you are daisy chaining back to him or you forget or the unit is too small and you don't get his buff. What else do you get for that massive investment.....the same as you do for a 78pt warboss. Except his Klaw is slightly better and his stats are a bit better, T6 Vs T5. Ohh, and he comes with a 4++ save

So 165pts gets you army wide rerolls to hit and wound if within range, +1 charge distance, reroll failed morale checks a better invuln save, not to mention being 3' faster, more wounds, more attacks, a better CC weapon and a better ranged weapon

So yeah....He was OP as all hell when compared to another factions best character. And keep in mind that is after he was nerfed, he used to be 360pts so only 125pts more then Margaret.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 01:19:29


Post by: BrianDavion


well honestly sounds to me more like Ghaz is grosely over costed (sadly :( )


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 01:24:51


Post by: JNAProductions


BrianDavion wrote:
well honestly sounds to me more like Ghaz is grosely over costed (sadly :( )
It can be both.

It can also be that the Marine Codex was full of crap, and the Ork Codex was less so, so despite Ghaz giving worse buffs on a worse chassis, the 'Dex as a whole was better.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 01:57:04


Post by: Xenomancers


Is gazz a lord of war? Oh yeah...hes not.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 01:59:11


Post by: flandarz


Should we compare G-Man to the Ork LoWs instead then? Cuz then the comparison gets WAY worse.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 02:04:06


Post by: Xenomancers


 fraser1191 wrote:
I'd say Guilliman was nerfed in the since that you have to use the correct weapons against targets. More or less you just have to set yourself up for wounding on 3s and getting the reroll of 1 as opposed to aiming at undesirable targets knowing you'll get full rerolls anyway
I'm pretty much fine with the aura being changed. Lots of ground was made up in other areas. Gman just isn't that great right now. Hes overcosted like magnus now - doing nothing that special but still being a beast. Being a beast is meaningless when 90-130 point characters are 1 shooting knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flandarz wrote:
Should we compare G-Man to the Ork LoWs instead then? Cuz then the comparison gets WAY worse.
No comparable lord of war. So orks have nothing to compare. You have to compare him to calgar. Who does the important thing of buffing your army but also fill mandatory HQ (big deal for marines) and he now also regens command points where gman does not. Hes got more killing power and some minor buffs to hand out beyond that but it's not anywhere near close to being worth 150 points more (plus the other required expenditures of getting another HQ. Though with the chaplain being okay now that might not matter so much). 150 points is a redemptor dread. Ill take my additional redemptor dread all day now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.
He only promoted that way of play for Ultramarines obviously. The other chapters would have been equally popular with different types of builds with CT applying to vehicals. That is really what it boils down to. Other chapters getting a useful trait for their vehcials while ultras tactic is extremely garbage and 400 point tax for gman to function. They would have been pretty close in power level. You really don't think -2 to hit stormravens and fireraptors would have been the best build if it was available? Now ultras are special in another way and people will almost undoubtably complain about that too. ULTRAS ARE OP cause they can move and shoot with their bolters yada yada yada. I expect a host of nerfs to ultras in the first couple of weeks of the codex release while the obviously more powerful Iron Hands remain untouched. Just wait and see.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 02:21:57


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Guilleman had to take a hit though or else the other marines could never get buffed without breaking the game. Imagine old style guilleman buffing these new marines, it'd be busted as hell. It should say something that marines were considered an awful codex and guilleman was so good you could still win tournaments with him back when he first came out. Between Bolter drill, tac doctrines, shock assault, and various point tweaks and who knows what all strategems, he just did too much.

This way you can buff say a tac marine to be useful for a chapter like Iron Hands without having to worry that an Ultramarines one is going to be too powerful because guilleman was letting him reroll everything.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 02:26:47


Post by: ERJAK


BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to remeber is Gulliman is, whatever else, a complete beast up close. and now Ultrmarines are going to be enchouraged to run much more mobile battlelines. Gulliman will, more reliably see close combat


Yeah, they're more mobile, but they still don't actually wanna get into melee, Girlybro or no GirlyBro.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 02:37:55


Post by: BrianDavion


ERJAK wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to remeber is Gulliman is, whatever else, a complete beast up close. and now Ultrmarines are going to be enchouraged to run much more mobile battlelines. Gulliman will, more reliably see close combat


Yeah, they're more mobile, but they still don't actually wanna get into melee, Girlybro or no GirlyBro.


intercessors are hitting 3 attacks per model on the charge, with -1 AP STR 4 re-rolling misses and rolls of 1 to wound.. they're reasonably potent.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 04:14:55


Post by: Breton


 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it.


Its human nature. The models I can't take deserve a nerfing. The grass on your side is greener.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 04:54:38


Post by: HoundsofDemos


To me it comes down to GW giving more and more traits and unique strats to factions and units. It's a big game that they already are not great at balancing but combining points with the latter creates even more issues.

How do you properly balance any given unit when it has so many variables. Bobby G boosts ultras but no other marine units in some ways, and gives a buff to every IOM unit in some way, plus he himself is a melee monsters. So how do you cost a unit when it might be meh or really good if I happen to put another unit on the board with an aura, a strat or some other trick.

GW continues to add more and more variables for any given unit and that makes it hard to figure what anything should cost as 40k feels more and more like a combo card game than any kind of table top battle sim.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 05:07:48


Post by: orkswubwub


So while it is a nerf... the amount of overreaction here is so real. All the other SM basically got buffed (more or less), and G man is still probably very usable in the 'right' list. His damage output is still disgusting, he still has character protection, etc. Yeah you lose the reroll wounds but every other SM has been buffed. Why does everyone act like the sky is falling? Thread should just be locked tbh... The entire thread title of "guillman nerfed" seems inflammatory... what about all the buffs to SM? There has been like one comment in this entire thread taking that into context...

This is the same thing we saw with the chaos knights release - everyone acted like OMG infernal so good, yet every top 4 we've seen ITC (True) has been Iconoclast...


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 05:31:27


Post by: Breton


orkswubwub wrote:
So while it is a nerf... the amount of overreaction here is so real. All the other SM basically got buffed (more or less), and G man is still probably very usable in the 'right' list. His damage output is still disgusting, he still has character protection, etc. Yeah you lose the reroll wounds but every other SM has been buffed. Why does everyone act like the sky is falling? Thread should just be locked tbh... The entire thread title of "guillman nerfed" seems inflammatory... what about all the buffs to SM? There has been like one comment in this entire thread taking that into context...

This is the same thing we saw with the chaos knights release - everyone acted like OMG infernal so good, yet every top 4 we've seen ITC (True) has been Iconoclast...


I wouldn't say it's a nerf, but a sidegrade might be accurate. The points reduction is a boost to make him more palatable to UM lists. People are making too big of a deal over the reduced wound re-rolls. Remember the thread about Salamander Predator Anhilators now being able to almost duplicate his OLD hit/wound reroll? And how unimpressed people were? That didn't even cost you 350 points.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 05:50:59


Post by: tneva82


Ice_can wrote:
But as you say every target worth focusing is hiding behind atleast-1 to hit. .


Well Guilliman got buffed against -x to hit at least as he got the cawl style reroll. No more "can't reroll this 3 because it's miss after modifier"


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 06:14:18


Post by: wuestenfux


I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it.

I've seen UM armies with Gman in the center and a shooty battery close to him.
I absolutely dislike this kind of tactics.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 06:26:38


Post by: BrianDavion


 wuestenfux wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it.

I've seen UM armies with Gman in the center and a shooty battery close to him.
I absolutely dislike this kind of tactics.


in fairness thats less a problem with Gulliman and more a problem with how 40k is designed. with the changes to mnarines now, ultramarines at least don't need to castle to maximize their firepower


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 09:18:58


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


 flandarz wrote:
Should we compare G-Man to the Ork LoWs instead then? Cuz then the comparison gets WAY worse.


Exalt, good god that made me laugh!

On a side note - Seriously the Stompa needs some love GW! It's a 10/10 kit that embodies all things Orky,


On the thread topic. It is a good change to Gulliman in my opinion. He is still one of the ultimate beat sticks in the game, his supporting aura is great and now he's cheaper whilst losing a lot of what made him feel incredibly unfun to play against. If it is a 'nerf' he got off a lot lighter than many in my local area would of wanted, a lot were voicing he should be W10 and 4++ invun!

I'm just waiting for the new codex to come out so my Swarmlord can eat Calgar and then duel Gulliman as is tradition at this point.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 11:59:27


Post by: TheFleshIsWeak


I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 12:21:53


Post by: Breton


 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.


I'm waiting for the Apothecaries that treated every bump, scrape, and near decapitation from his irate brother to be able to treat him again.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 13:14:49


Post by: Eldarsif


I am looking forward to seeing how Roboute performs in his new form. It was obvious he had to see some changes considering that he was an insane multiplier that threw away any resemblance of choice in the codex.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 13:24:37


Post by: Xenomancers


Breton wrote:
orkswubwub wrote:
So while it is a nerf... the amount of overreaction here is so real. All the other SM basically got buffed (more or less), and G man is still probably very usable in the 'right' list. His damage output is still disgusting, he still has character protection, etc. Yeah you lose the reroll wounds but every other SM has been buffed. Why does everyone act like the sky is falling? Thread should just be locked tbh... The entire thread title of "guillman nerfed" seems inflammatory... what about all the buffs to SM? There has been like one comment in this entire thread taking that into context...

This is the same thing we saw with the chaos knights release - everyone acted like OMG infernal so good, yet every top 4 we've seen ITC (True) has been Iconoclast...


I wouldn't say it's a nerf, but a sidegrade might be accurate. The points reduction is a boost to make him more palatable to UM lists. People are making too big of a deal over the reduced wound re-rolls. Remember the thread about Salamander Predator Anhilators now being able to almost duplicate his OLD hit/wound reroll? And how unimpressed people were? That didn't even cost you 350 points.

It is a lot bigger nerf than you are claiming AND repulsors also went up in price. Basically. GW is dumb and while they buffed a lot of the things in the codex. They made sure to NERF the most powerful marine build EVEN THOUGH it was a bottom tier option. This marks the 4th time they nerfed gman this edition. Making him the most nerfed unit in 40k history I am pretty sure.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I am looking forward to seeing how Roboute performs in his new form. It was obvious he had to see some changes considering that he was an insane multiplier that threw away any resemblance of choice in the codex.

Chapter tactics not applying to vehicles through away any semblance of choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.
Just like daemon princes and ctan and Avatars and a host of other big characters with 9 wounds or less.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 13:38:28


Post by: Bharring


Or Character dreadnaughts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really like the sound of the Gman changes. Lots cheaper, with solid buffs but not mindnumbingly OP ones. Provides room to make Marines competitive without making UM OP.

I said Gman and CatLady were the same thing for a long time, but one faction was pointed to compete with him, and the other pointed to compete without her. They've already "totally fixed" Cat Lady. Now it looks like they totally fixed Gman too - but by nerfing him to reasonable instead of into the ground.

Between this, Pods, Tacs, and a host of other things, GW is looking better and better. I'm sure the book won't be balanced, but at least it's chasing better playstyles.

I look forward to see how the book interacts with the meta.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 14:08:20


Post by: Xenomancers


Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 14:21:12


Post by: TheFleshIsWeak


 Xenomancers wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.
Just like daemon princes and ctan and Avatars and a host of other big characters with 9 wounds or less.


I'd happy see those things changed as well.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 14:23:54


Post by: Reemule


I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.



Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 14:25:17


Post by: JNAProductions


Reemule wrote:
I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.

So if "He's a Primarch" is the explanation, why do Magnus and Mortarion only give RR1s?


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 14:37:38


Post by: Daedalus81


 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.


Don't know if the combo is correct, but +3" range / +1 change&advance --

Turn 1 pods:

- 11" combi-flamer SG; burn and clear for turn 2 terminators
- Grav Cannon Devs with extra AP
- A Chaplain and 9 VV out of LOS for a turn 2 charge with +3" - especially considering that fly over charges are back.




Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 14:41:12


Post by: Reemule


 JNAProductions wrote:
Reemule wrote:
I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.

So if "He's a Primarch" is the explanation, why do Magnus and Mortarion only give RR1s?


I agree they should be better if that is your point.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 14:55:55


Post by: Eldarsif


Reemule wrote:
I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.



He already has some amazing stuff. He is a 3++ character that has a 50% of reviving himself. He also gives you 3 Command Points if he is your warlord, is Toughness 6, and a lot more. Now whether his point cost is appropriate remains to be seen, but his abilities are very much above average.

Also, rerolls should be more sparing. Nobody enjoyed the endless rerolls of Craftworlds in 6th and 7th and they tend to slow down the game in general. The only realistic reroll to wound Gman should have had in his old version is the Space Marine version of Doom. He could have ordered focus fire on a unit in given range which would have given reroll to wounds on them. It would have been more thematic than the "Bubble of Roboute" he used to engender explicitly in the previous codex and to a smaller extent in this one.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 15:00:46


Post by: Daedalus81


 Eldarsif wrote:
Reemule wrote:
I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.



He already has some amazing stuff. He is a 3++ character that has a 50% of reviving himself. He also gives you 3 Command Points if he is your warlord, is Toughness 6, and a lot more. Now whether his point cost is appropriate remains to be seen, but his abilities are very much above average.


75% revive if you're saving a CP.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 15:35:11


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.


Don't know if the combo is correct, but +3" range / +1 change&advance --

Turn 1 pods:

- 11" combi-flamer SG; burn and clear for turn 2 terminators
- Grav Cannon Devs with extra AP
- A Chaplain and 9 VV out of LOS for a turn 2 charge with +3" - especially considering that fly over charges are back.




VVs would have to choose between arriving turn 1 or having Jump Packs (and thus Fly).


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 16:07:40


Post by: Daedalus81


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.


Don't know if the combo is correct, but +3" range / +1 change&advance --

Turn 1 pods:

- 11" combi-flamer SG; burn and clear for turn 2 terminators
- Grav Cannon Devs with extra AP
- A Chaplain and 9 VV out of LOS for a turn 2 charge with +3" - especially considering that fly over charges are back.




VVs would have to choose between arriving turn 1 or having Jump Packs (and thus Fly).


Oh right, no JPs in pods. You could still fling them pretty hard if you got the screen cleared.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 16:09:55


Post by: Xenomancers


 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.
Just like daemon princes and ctan and Avatars and a host of other big characters with 9 wounds or less.


I'd happy see those things changed as well.

That isn't going to happen though. I'd be more than happy if Gman was buffed to 16 wounds like other primarchs rather than have him nerfed to being a lord of war chapter master LT combo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.


Don't know if the combo is correct, but +3" range / +1 change&advance --

Turn 1 pods:

- 11" combi-flamer SG; burn and clear for turn 2 terminators
- Grav Cannon Devs with extra AP
- A Chaplain and 9 VV out of LOS for a turn 2 charge with +3" - especially considering that fly over charges are back.




VVs would have to choose between arriving turn 1 or having Jump Packs (and thus Fly).


Oh right, no JPs in pods. You could still fling them pretty hard if you got the screen cleared.

Can't clear screen in turn 1 movement phase. Turn 1 deep strike is best for shooting units. Except for things like tzangor/bloodletter/ork boy bombs. Cause their huge footprint also ties up a ton of units if they can wipe out the screen and active again. You can put sterngaurd in there with all plasmas and it will do okay damage. Once you factor in the price of the pod though. You could do it with chaos terms for about the same price and that unit is about 3 times as good as sternguard with plasma when you factor in durability and stratagems to shoow twice and wound better.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 16:44:16


Post by: Daedalus81


 Xenomancers wrote:

Can't clear screen in turn 1 movement phase. Turn 1 deep strike is best for shooting units. Except for things like tzangor/bloodletter/ork boy bombs. Cause their huge footprint also ties up a ton of units if they can wipe out the screen and active again. You can put sterngaurd in there with all plasmas and it will do okay damage. Once you factor in the price of the pod though. You could do it with chaos terms for about the same price and that unit is about 3 times as good as sternguard with plasma when you factor in durability and stratagems to shoow twice and wound better.


I mean turn 1 is screen clear plus positioning chaplain and VV.

White Scars & +1 to advance/charge as a successor chapter means VV can go 9 + 4.5 + 7 + 3 = 23.5 inches. Getting even a 12" advantage from the starting line gets you a heck of a lot deeper on turn 2.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/12 17:15:30


Post by: Xenomancers


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Can't clear screen in turn 1 movement phase. Turn 1 deep strike is best for shooting units. Except for things like tzangor/bloodletter/ork boy bombs. Cause their huge footprint also ties up a ton of units if they can wipe out the screen and active again. You can put sterngaurd in there with all plasmas and it will do okay damage. Once you factor in the price of the pod though. You could do it with chaos terms for about the same price and that unit is about 3 times as good as sternguard with plasma when you factor in durability and stratagems to shoow twice and wound better.


I mean turn 1 is screen clear plus positioning chaplain and VV.

White Scars & +1 to advance/charge as a successor chapter means VV can go 9 + 4.5 + 7 + 3 = 23.5 inches. Getting even a 12" advantage from the starting line gets you a heck of a lot deeper on turn 2.
Jump pack rush? I'm just gonna say nope. That doesn't work.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 00:32:36


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.


I am waiting for GW to announce they will be either buffing boyz or giving them a price drop back to 6ppm because atm 12pt space marine tacticals are better point for point then boyz.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 00:47:13


Post by: flandarz


You might not want to hold your breath on that one, Semper.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 00:58:50


Post by: SemperMortis


 flandarz wrote:
You might not want to hold your breath on that one, Semper.
Nope, I agree, it is highly unlikely. I think too any Eldar and Speese Mehreen players got PTSD from playing orkz when we had a decently competitive codex. They aren't used to having to take the Ork faction seriously. I won an ITC tournament this year and my Eldar opponent in the finals got so pissy he actually stormed off after the 3rd round, leaving his entire army on the table to be picked up later and demanding that my Army be double checked to ensure i hadn't taken an extra 500pts or so Apparently he didn't like the fact that my SSAG got to shoot twice which killed his two best units in 1 turn


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 01:04:52


Post by: Amishprn86


Or 2 wounds for the price of 1 with double the attacks isnt that bad of a thing, yeah its 3+ vs 6+ save, but there are so many AP weapons now i'd rather have the wounds than the saves.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 01:06:50


Post by: flandarz


I mean, unless you're getting hit by AP-4, Marines are still gonna atleast GET a Save. Boyz lose their Save at -1. Just ugly.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 01:12:46


Post by: Xenomancers


What game do you play where every ork isn't getting a 5++. Cause that's how it is around here man.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 01:19:19


Post by: flandarz


While I can't speak for your local meta, I can assure you that most competitive Ork lists don't feature more than 2 KFFs, and if you expect those to cover EVERY Ork on the board (including those getting Da Jumped and/or Deep Striking), you're either playing against remarkably small Ork lists, or you're delusional.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 01:19:31


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
What game do you play where every ork isn't getting a 5++. Cause that's how it is around here man.
Check your Ork friends' codecs-they only get that if every single Boy in a squad is within 9" of the bearer of the KFF.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 01:31:19


Post by: Amishprn86


 flandarz wrote:
I mean, unless you're getting hit by AP-4, Marines are still gonna atleast GET a Save. Boyz lose their Save at -1. Just ugly.


Dont need to be -4, just needs to be -2 to makes marines worthless, a 5+ save on 5 guys isnt very good for them., most Aeldari is also -2 or -3 ap as well, yes i know thats just 1 mega faction/3 subfactions (Quins/CWE/DE) but its the point, there are a huge amounts of -2/-3 ap weapons around right now.

Heck Marines are about to get a crap ton of additional -1ap weapons.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 01:31:59


Post by: Crazyterran


SemperMortis wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
You might not want to hold your breath on that one, Semper.
Nope, I agree, it is highly unlikely. I think too any Eldar and Speese Mehreen players got PTSD from playing orkz when we had a decently competitive codex. They aren't used to having to take the Ork faction seriously. I won an ITC tournament this year and my Eldar opponent in the finals got so pissy he actually stormed off after the 3rd round, leaving his entire army on the table to be picked up later and demanding that my Army be double checked to ensure i hadn't taken an extra 500pts or so Apparently he didn't like the fact that my SSAG got to shoot twice which killed his two best units in 1 turn


What type of Manchild just leaves on Turn 3? I could understand conceding and packing up, but just walking out?

Jesus.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 01:33:36


Post by: Xenomancers


 flandarz wrote:
I mean, unless you're getting hit by AP-4, Marines are still gonna atleast GET a Save. Boyz lose their Save at -1. Just ugly.

getting a 5+ or 6+ save when you pay a lot to have better than that is the biggest problem with the marine army. Damage has NEVER been the issue with marines.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 01:52:10


Post by: flandarz


Technically, you still have a 3+ Save. AP affects the roll, not the characteristic. Semantics aside: I'd still rather have a 1 in 3 or 1 in 6 chance to avoid damage than no chance at all. Plenty of units out there pay MORE per model for worse Saves than a 3+ (and worse statlines in general).

And, all that said, I'm kinda in agreement. Honestly, anything capable of taking out a full unit of normal infantry shouldn't have AP at all, with Elite Infantry killers having moderate AP (-1 and -2) with less shots, and Heavy killers having the highest AP and least shots. But we already know GW ain't the best in regards to balancing.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 02:05:06


Post by: Xenomancers


 flandarz wrote:
Technically, you still have a 3+ Save. AP affects the roll, not the characteristic. Semantics aside: I'd still rather have a 1 in 3 or 1 in 6 chance to avoid damage than no chance at all. Plenty of units out there pay MORE per model for worse Saves than a 3+ (and worse statlines in general).

And, all that said, I'm kinda in agreement. Honestly, anything capable of taking out a full unit of normal infantry shouldn't have AP at all, with Elite Infantry killers having moderate AP (-1 and -2) with less shots, and Heavy killers having the highest AP and least shots. But we already know GW ain't the best in regards to balancing.
Ap dopesnt affect the invo save. your save goes up no matter what I shoot at you other than mortal wounds.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 02:06:41


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Technically, you still have a 3+ Save. AP affects the roll, not the characteristic. Semantics aside: I'd still rather have a 1 in 3 or 1 in 6 chance to avoid damage than no chance at all. Plenty of units out there pay MORE per model for worse Saves than a 3+ (and worse statlines in general).

And, all that said, I'm kinda in agreement. Honestly, anything capable of taking out a full unit of normal infantry shouldn't have AP at all, with Elite Infantry killers having moderate AP (-1 and -2) with less shots, and Heavy killers having the highest AP and least shots. But we already know GW ain't the best in regards to balancing.
Ap dopesnt affect the invo save. your save goes up no matter what I shoot at you other than mortal wounds.
Again, have you seen the top-tables of Orks filled with Kustom Force Fields?

No?

Then you should be able to beat the folks who do take 'em, if you're good enough.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 02:23:30


Post by: Xenomancers


You can win a tourney with orks in any number of ways - the codex is loaded.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 02:25:51


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:
What game do you play where every ork isn't getting a 5++. Cause that's how it is around here man.


I routinely play ITC and other competitive events....I routinely finish in the top 5....I have never taken a KFF in 8th....ever. Why? Because investing that many points to give orkz +1 save is silly. And I say +1 because while -1 AP is common, it is far more common to face AP0 weapons.

 Xenomancers wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
I mean, unless you're getting hit by AP-4, Marines are still gonna atleast GET a Save. Boyz lose their Save at -1. Just ugly.

getting a 5+ or 6+ save when you pay a lot to have better than that is the biggest problem with the marine army. Damage has NEVER been the issue with marines.


And if your opponent is launching -2 and -3 AP weapons against your Tac Marines then you are doing ok because they are investing a lot of effort into killing 12pt models.


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or 2 wounds for the price of 1 with double the attacks isnt that bad of a thing, yeah its 3+ vs 6+ save, but there are so many AP weapons now i'd rather have the wounds than the saves.


With the new Codex coming out the SM's are going to be 12pts for a tac Marine. Orkz are currently 7pts per boy. So the way the works out is that Space Marines are about 33% More durable pt for pt then Orkz against AP0 weapons. 84pts of Tacs Vs 84pts of boyz. Boyz get 12 models, Marines get 7. Boyz and Marines are T4 with 1wound. Marines are 3+ while boyz are 6+ So to kill those 12 boyz outright takes 14 wounds from an AP0 weapon, to kill those 7 Marines it takes 21.

Against AP-1 weapons the math works out as such, to kill Boyz you need 12 shots, to kill the Space Marines you need 14shots, so again pt for pt, SM's are more durable. Now, when you finally get into the -2 AP arena, that is when Orkz start pulling ahead. To kill boyz its still 12shots, to kill those marines its now 9ish shots. But again, if your enemy is hitting your 12pt models with -2 AP weapons, you are doing alright.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
You can win a tourney with orks in any number of ways - the codex is loaded.


False, the codex is not loaded by any stretch of the imagination. Most of our builds are useless and the only competitive ones focus around gimmicks which are easily countered and have 2 hard counters in the tournament meta. But, lets play devils advocate here, what are the "number of ways" to me that means 3+ competitive builds, so lets hear it, also please back that up with evidence from major tournaments. anything under 20 people is a local game in my book.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 02:33:49


Post by: flandarz


I'm also curious about this. From my understanding, most lists doing well in tournaments feature some combination of Lootas, SSAG, Dakkajets, Gretchin, and Mek Gunz, while the remainder of the army either supports these units, grabs Objectives, or ties up units in CC. That's not really "any number of ways". That's more like 1 way (relying on solid ranged units) with small variances depending on player which generally all fall into specific categories.

Not saying the Ork Codex ain't good. Just that you have a habit of over-exaggerating the power of other Factions and the lack thereof of your own.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 02:34:47


Post by: BrianDavion


funny all I hear is Ork players complaining their codex options aren't good eneugh and all their options where nerfed.


One wonders if you can detect the irony


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 02:40:53


Post by: flandarz


Really? Check the Taktikz thread. The vast majority of people posting in there are in agreement that the Ork Codex is fine and dandy. Maybe you just know a lot of whiners?


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 03:11:06


Post by: Martel732


Orks are my favorite codex atm. Really well done. They are solid without feeling impossible to beat, unlike old Ynarri.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 03:42:31


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Martel732 wrote:
Orks are my favorite codex atm. Really well done. They are solid without feeling impossible to beat, unlike old Ynarri.

I feel the same about that and the Tyranid codex, though granted some things could absolutely be fixed.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 03:44:19


Post by: flandarz


I agree with you both. Barring outliers like the Stompa and Burna Boyz, the Ork Codex is pretty solid. Even the weaker options tend to have SOME worth.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 03:47:23


Post by: BrianDavion


 flandarz wrote:
Really? Check the Taktikz thread. The vast majority of people posting in there are in agreement that the Ork Codex is fine and dandy. Maybe you just know a lot of whiners?


there was some gurmbling by one or two people about Orks when the Marines where released, the useal "how dare GW give their best selling product line stuff instead of what I want" the point is that every codex has a handful of players who basicly bitch whine and moan about EVERYTHING in their codex "MY BASIC TROOPS CAN'T ONE SHOT A KNIGHT THEY SUCK!" etc.


Guilliman Nerfed!  @ 2019/08/13 06:24:10


Post by: Breton


 Xenomancers wrote:

It is a lot bigger nerf than you are claiming AND repulsors also went up in price. Basically. GW is dumb and while they buffed a lot of the things in the codex. They made sure to NERF the most powerful marine build EVEN THOUGH it was a bottom tier option. This marks the 4th time they nerfed gman this edition. Making him the most nerfed unit in 40k history I am pretty sure.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I am looking forward to seeing how Roboute performs in his new form. It was obvious he had to see some changes considering that he was an insane multiplier that threw away any resemblance of choice in the codex.

Chapter tactics not applying to vehicles through away any semblance of choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.
Just like daemon princes and ctan and Avatars and a host of other big characters with 9 wounds or less.


Reroll All/Most failed wounds, and reroll 1's isn't THAT big of a nerf.

10 Intercessors then vs now - double tap, vs T4, 3+

20 shots, 13.4 hits reroll gets you another 4.489 17.889 hits

17.889 hits 8.9445 woundings reroll 13.41675 woundings
17.889 hits 8.9445 woundings reroll 1's 10.37562 woundings

13.41675 woundings with a 3+ -1 Armor Save - 6.708375 wounds.
11.896185 woundings with a 3+ -2 Armor Save - 6.9516654 wounds.

The difference between reroll 1's and reroll wounds on a 4+ to wound is 3.04113 woundings. About 22% And it's more than made up for by Tactical Doctrine which is improved by Son's of Guilliaman And we haven't started rerolling 3's and 4's to hit that would have failed and could/couldn't be rerolled depending on who last updated the GW FAQ on Rerolls and modifiers. And we haven't added in his shooting yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.


I agree Pods on Turn 1 probably isn't going to be a thing. I disagree the solution is to make them cheaper. The solution is to give them a bigger gun so they can't be ignored. Drop an Empty Pod on a Guardsman squad - 10 T3 5+ wounds - on Turn 1 and the Guardsman squad will live to the end of the game statistically speaking. If a 10 man Guard Infantry squad can tank a Drop Pod for 6 turns why does ANYONE need to move away from/attack or otherwise alter their plans because of it? Give that Drop Pod a TL Assault Cannon hanging from the ceiling with Heavy 12 S6 shots, and then people start paying attention to it on your timetable not theirs.