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 wuestenfux wrote:

I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it.

I've seen UM armies with Gman in the center and a shooty battery close to him.
I absolutely dislike this kind of tactics.

in fairness thats less a problem with Gulliman and more a problem with how 40k is designed. with the changes to mnarines now, ultramarines at least don't need to castle to maximize their firepower

 flandarz wrote:
Should we compare G-Man to the Ork LoWs instead then? Cuz then the comparison gets WAY worse.

Exalt, good god that made me laugh!

On a side note - Seriously the Stompa needs some love GW! It's a 10/10 kit that embodies all things Orky,


On the thread topic. It is a good change to Gulliman in my opinion. He is still one of the ultimate beat sticks in the game, his supporting aura is great and now he's cheaper whilst losing a lot of what made him feel incredibly unfun to play against. If it is a 'nerf' he got off a lot lighter than many in my local area would of wanted, a lot were voicing he should be W10 and 4++ invun!

I'm just waiting for the new codex to come out so my Swarmlord can eat Calgar and then duel Gulliman as is tradition at this point.

I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.

I'm waiting for the Apothecaries that treated every bump, scrape, and near decapitation from his irate brother to be able to treat him again.

I am looking forward to seeing how Roboute performs in his new form. It was obvious he had to see some changes considering that he was an insane multiplier that threw away any resemblance of choice in the codex.

Breton wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
So while it is a nerf... the amount of overreaction here is so real. All the other SM basically got buffed (more or less), and G man is still probably very usable in the 'right' list. His damage output is still disgusting, he still has character protection, etc. Yeah you lose the reroll wounds but every other SM has been buffed. Why does everyone act like the sky is falling? Thread should just be locked tbh... The entire thread title of "guillman nerfed" seems inflammatory... what about all the buffs to SM? There has been like one comment in this entire thread taking that into context...

This is the same thing we saw with the chaos knights release - everyone acted like OMG infernal so good, yet every top 4 we've seen ITC (True) has been Iconoclast...

I wouldn't say it's a nerf, but a sidegrade might be accurate. The points reduction is a boost to make him more palatable to UM lists. People are making too big of a deal over the reduced wound re-rolls. Remember the thread about Salamander Predator Anhilators now being able to almost duplicate his OLD hit/wound reroll? And how unimpressed people were? That didn't even cost you 350 points.

It is a lot bigger nerf than you are claiming AND repulsors also went up in price. Basically. GW is dumb and while they buffed a lot of the things in the codex. They made sure to NERF the most powerful marine build EVEN THOUGH it was a bottom tier option. This marks the 4th time they nerfed gman this edition. Making him the most nerfed unit in 40k history I am pretty sure.




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 Eldarsif wrote:
I am looking forward to seeing how Roboute performs in his new form. It was obvious he had to see some changes considering that he was an insane multiplier that threw away any resemblance of choice in the codex.

Chapter tactics not applying to vehicles through away any semblance of choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.

Just like daemon princes and ctan and Avatars and a host of other big characters with 9 wounds or less.

Or Character dreadnaughts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really like the sound of the Gman changes. Lots cheaper, with solid buffs but not mindnumbingly OP ones. Provides room to make Marines competitive without making UM OP.

I said Gman and CatLady were the same thing for a long time, but one faction was pointed to compete with him, and the other pointed to compete without her. They've already "totally fixed" Cat Lady. Now it looks like they totally fixed Gman too - but by nerfing him to reasonable instead of into the ground.

Between this, Pods, Tacs, and a host of other things, GW is looking better and better. I'm sure the book won't be balanced, but at least it's chasing better playstyles.

I look forward to see how the book interacts with the meta.

Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.

Just like daemon princes and ctan and Avatars and a host of other big characters with 9 wounds or less.

I'd happy see those things changed as well.

I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.

Reemule wrote:
I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.

So if "He's a Primarch" is the explanation, why do Magnus and Mortarion only give RR1s?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.

Don't know if the combo is correct, but +3" range / +1 change&advance --

Turn 1 pods:

- 11" combi-flamer SG; burn and clear for turn 2 terminators
- Grav Cannon Devs with extra AP
- A Chaplain and 9 VV out of LOS for a turn 2 charge with +3" - especially considering that fly over charges are back.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.

So if "He's a Primarch" is the explanation, why do Magnus and Mortarion only give RR1s?

I agree they should be better if that is your point.

Reemule wrote:
I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.

He already has some amazing stuff. He is a 3++ character that has a 50% of reviving himself. He also gives you 3 Command Points if he is your warlord, is Toughness 6, and a lot more. Now whether his point cost is appropriate remains to be seen, but his abilities are very much above average.

Also, rerolls should be more sparing. Nobody enjoyed the endless rerolls of Craftworlds in 6th and 7th and they tend to slow down the game in general. The only realistic reroll to wound Gman should have had in his old version is the Space Marine version of Doom. He could have ordered focus fire on a unit in given range which would have given reroll to wounds on them. It would have been more thematic than the "Bubble of Roboute" he used to engender explicitly in the previous codex and to a smaller extent in this one.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I understand the to wound roll nerf. And it was needed to open design space.

I do with he had kept something like.. Rolls of 1 or 2 to wound can be rerolled.

He is a primarch. He should have some amazing stuff. And it wouldn't have screwed the game.

He already has some amazing stuff. He is a 3++ character that has a 50% of reviving himself. He also gives you 3 Command Points if he is your warlord, is Toughness 6, and a lot more. Now whether his point cost is appropriate remains to be seen, but his abilities are very much above average.

75% revive if you're saving a CP.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.

Don't know if the combo is correct, but +3" range / +1 change&advance --

Turn 1 pods:

- 11" combi-flamer SG; burn and clear for turn 2 terminators
- Grav Cannon Devs with extra AP
- A Chaplain and 9 VV out of LOS for a turn 2 charge with +3" - especially considering that fly over charges are back.

VVs would have to choose between arriving turn 1 or having Jump Packs (and thus Fly).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.

Don't know if the combo is correct, but +3" range / +1 change&advance --

Turn 1 pods:

- 11" combi-flamer SG; burn and clear for turn 2 terminators
- Grav Cannon Devs with extra AP
- A Chaplain and 9 VV out of LOS for a turn 2 charge with +3" - especially considering that fly over charges are back.

VVs would have to choose between arriving turn 1 or having Jump Packs (and thus Fly).

Oh right, no JPs in pods. You could still fling them pretty hard if you got the screen cleared.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.

Just like daemon princes and ctan and Avatars and a host of other big characters with 9 wounds or less.

I'd happy see those things changed as well.

That isn't going to happen though. I'd be more than happy if Gman was buffed to 16 wounds like other primarchs rather than have him nerfed to being a lord of war chapter master LT combo.


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.

Don't know if the combo is correct, but +3" range / +1 change&advance --

Turn 1 pods:

- 11" combi-flamer SG; burn and clear for turn 2 terminators
- Grav Cannon Devs with extra AP
- A Chaplain and 9 VV out of LOS for a turn 2 charge with +3" - especially considering that fly over charges are back.

VVs would have to choose between arriving turn 1 or having Jump Packs (and thus Fly).

Oh right, no JPs in pods. You could still fling them pretty hard if you got the screen cleared.

Can't clear screen in turn 1 movement phase. Turn 1 deep strike is best for shooting units. Except for things like tzangor/bloodletter/ork boy bombs. Cause their huge footprint also ties up a ton of units if they can wipe out the screen and active again. You can put sterngaurd in there with all plasmas and it will do okay damage. Once you factor in the price of the pod though. You could do it with chaos terms for about the same price and that unit is about 3 times as good as sternguard with plasma when you factor in durability and stratagems to shoow twice and wound better.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Can't clear screen in turn 1 movement phase. Turn 1 deep strike is best for shooting units. Except for things like tzangor/bloodletter/ork boy bombs. Cause their huge footprint also ties up a ton of units if they can wipe out the screen and active again. You can put sterngaurd in there with all plasmas and it will do okay damage. Once you factor in the price of the pod though. You could do it with chaos terms for about the same price and that unit is about 3 times as good as sternguard with plasma when you factor in durability and stratagems to shoow twice and wound better.

I mean turn 1 is screen clear plus positioning chaplain and VV.

White Scars & +1 to advance/charge as a successor chapter means VV can go 9 + 4.5 + 7 + 3 = 23.5 inches. Getting even a 12" advantage from the starting line gets you a heck of a lot deeper on turn 2.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Can't clear screen in turn 1 movement phase. Turn 1 deep strike is best for shooting units. Except for things like tzangor/bloodletter/ork boy bombs. Cause their huge footprint also ties up a ton of units if they can wipe out the screen and active again. You can put sterngaurd in there with all plasmas and it will do okay damage. Once you factor in the price of the pod though. You could do it with chaos terms for about the same price and that unit is about 3 times as good as sternguard with plasma when you factor in durability and stratagems to shoow twice and wound better.

I mean turn 1 is screen clear plus positioning chaplain and VV.

White Scars & +1 to advance/charge as a successor chapter means VV can go 9 + 4.5 + 7 + 3 = 23.5 inches. Getting even a 12" advantage from the starting line gets you a heck of a lot deeper on turn 2.

Jump pack rush? I'm just gonna say nope. That doesn't work.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.

I am waiting for GW to announce they will be either buffing boyz or giving them a price drop back to 6ppm because atm 12pt space marine tacticals are better point for point then boyz.

You might not want to hold your breath on that one, Semper.

 flandarz wrote:
You might not want to hold your breath on that one, Semper.

Nope, I agree, it is highly unlikely. I think too any Eldar and Speese Mehreen players got PTSD from playing orkz when we had a decently competitive codex. They aren't used to having to take the Ork faction seriously. I won an ITC tournament this year and my Eldar opponent in the finals got so pissy he actually stormed off after the 3rd round, leaving his entire army on the table to be picked up later and demanding that my Army be double checked to ensure i hadn't taken an extra 500pts or so Apparently he didn't like the fact that my SSAG got to shoot twice which killed his two best units in 1 turn

Or 2 wounds for the price of 1 with double the attacks isnt that bad of a thing, yeah its 3+ vs 6+ save, but there are so many AP weapons now i'd rather have the wounds than the saves.

I mean, unless you're getting hit by AP-4, Marines are still gonna atleast GET a Save. Boyz lose their Save at -1. Just ugly.

What game do you play where every ork isn't getting a 5++. Cause that's how it is around here man.

While I can't speak for your local meta, I can assure you that most competitive Ork lists don't feature more than 2 KFFs, and if you expect those to cover EVERY Ork on the board (including those getting Da Jumped and/or Deep Striking), you're either playing against remarkably small Ork lists, or you're delusional.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What game do you play where every ork isn't getting a 5++. Cause that's how it is around here man.

Check your Ork friends' codecs-they only get that if every single Boy in a squad is within 9" of the bearer of the KFF.

 flandarz wrote:
I mean, unless you're getting hit by AP-4, Marines are still gonna atleast GET a Save. Boyz lose their Save at -1. Just ugly.

Dont need to be -4, just needs to be -2 to makes marines worthless, a 5+ save on 5 guys isnt very good for them., most Aeldari is also -2 or -3 ap as well, yes i know thats just 1 mega faction/3 subfactions (Quins/CWE/DE) but its the point, there are a huge amounts of -2/-3 ap weapons around right now.

Heck Marines are about to get a crap ton of additional -1ap weapons.

SemperMortis wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
You might not want to hold your breath on that one, Semper.

Nope, I agree, it is highly unlikely. I think too any Eldar and Speese Mehreen players got PTSD from playing orkz when we had a decently competitive codex. They aren't used to having to take the Ork faction seriously. I won an ITC tournament this year and my Eldar opponent in the finals got so pissy he actually stormed off after the 3rd round, leaving his entire army on the table to be picked up later and demanding that my Army be double checked to ensure i hadn't taken an extra 500pts or so Apparently he didn't like the fact that my SSAG got to shoot twice which killed his two best units in 1 turn

What type of Manchild just leaves on Turn 3? I could understand conceding and packing up, but just walking out?

Jesus.