Switch Theme:

Guilliman Nerfed!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
[DCM]
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
If anything he deserved buffs.


He got better melee, +1 attack in the first round of combat, will benefit from Doctrines, had his to-hit aura reworded to allow it circumvent to-hit penalties, and got a 50-point reduction.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Flamers now have access to a +3" range chapter tactic, heavy weapons (inc T1 deepstriking meltaguns and heavy flamers) benefit from +1AP in the first turn, and all Marines have better chapter tactics than before.

Bolters got buffed the most but everything across the board has been improved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/11 20:03:29


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Imo that barely makes any sense. Marines with heavy weapons can do plenty of damage, and Grav just got reduced in price and a nasty Strat. Not to mention the UM buff that allows Heavy Weapons to fire without penalty on the move, which I think I saw mentioned somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marines are getting so much right now it's just inconcievable that someone is complaining about relative army power.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/11 20:04:42


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





I agree Marines have lots of tools, and even a pure Primaris Army now has solid anti-tank.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Imo that barely makes any sense. Marines with heavy weapons can do plenty of damage, and Grav just got reduced in price and a nasty Strat. Not to mention the UM buff that allows Heavy Weapons to fire without penalty on the move, which I think I saw mentioned somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marines are getting so much right now it's just inconcievable that someone is complaining about relative army power.

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
Blame invo saves making the right weapons actually the wrong weapon.


Not really.

Rerolling full wounds on guns that wound on 4s or 5s is a far better increase than rerolling everything on something that wounds on a 2 or 3.

Increasing the AP and quantity of bolter shots would have been prime territory for Bobby to further amp up bolters and make them able to tackle nearly any threat.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Blame invo saves making the right weapons actually the wrong weapon.


Not really.

Rerolling full wounds on guns that wound on 4s or 5s is a far better increase than rerolling everything on something that wounds on a 2 or 3.

Increasing the AP and quantity of bolter shots would have been prime territory for Bobby to further amp up bolters and make them able to tackle nearly any threat.
So what you are saying is. An army that barely accomplished anything. Could have received a big improvement? Fail to see how that would be a big broblem competitively. Heck - they gave us reroll wounds vs a single target with a 6 inch mark and you get it for free (as a relic or WL trait I don't remember) no 400 point tax needed. Probably will be more problematic than Gman ever was.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.

100% agree
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.
How is it any more stupid than tau going +1 to wound vs a big target with 2+/3+ to hit reroll 1's with much stronger weapons?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.
How is it any more stupid than tau going +1 to wound vs a big target with 2+/3+ to hit reroll 1's with much stronger weapons?

Yeah they can hammer 1 target with stacking 5 sucesfull markerlights and strategums, having not moved and hoping that the target doesn't have a -1 to hit.

But as you say every target worth focusing is hiding behind atleast-1 to hit.
Stop trying to deflect onto other codex's and it was no more stupid than Gman 3 killshot preds and 2 dakka repulsors being an army.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Ice_can wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Imo that barely makes any sense. Marines with heavy weapons can do plenty of damage, and Grav just got reduced in price and a nasty Strat. Not to mention the UM buff that allows Heavy Weapons to fire without penalty on the move, which I think I saw mentioned somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marines are getting so much right now it's just inconcievable that someone is complaining about relative army power.

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam up to knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

I never went too far down that road myself, so I'm feeling pretty good. But with all the new rules/buffs I can't see it being that difficult, especially for those who are willing to chapter-hop. There's bound to be some combination that gives any sizable collection a reasonable solution, esp with customizeable Chapter Traits.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns.


Why are you trying to use Boltguns to kill vehicles?


I think he's noting that well bolter marines have been buffed, considerably, little has been done to change marines without bolters


Imo that barely makes any sense. Marines with heavy weapons can do plenty of damage, and Grav just got reduced in price and a nasty Strat. Not to mention the UM buff that allows Heavy Weapons to fire without penalty on the move, which I think I saw mentioned somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marines are getting so much right now it's just inconcievable that someone is complaining about relative army power.

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam up to knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

I never went too far down that road myself, so I'm feeling pretty good. But with all the new rules/buffs I can't see it being that difficult, especially for those who are willing to chapter-hop. There's bound to be some combination that gives any sizable collection a reasonable solution, esp with customizeable Chapter Traits.

Oh it's easily the best codex for number of potential builds as long as GW doesn't duck Forgeworld models be not giving them angles of death.

But I do think a lot of people are going to be unhappy with the best way to play being a mix and match of OG and primaris marines.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






I'd say Guilliman was nerfed in the since that you have to use the correct weapons against targets. More or less you just have to set yourself up for wounding on 3s and getting the reroll of 1 as opposed to aiming at undesirable targets knowing you'll get full rerolls anyway
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it. Look at space marine WR as a whole. It is terrible. If anything he deserved buffs. At least the army is getting buffed which is good. I'm still left wondering how marines are going to kill vehicals with all these damn...bolt guns. Just look at DW winning nothing and probably having superior abilities to buffed marines vs infantry already.


Well lets compare.

GMan: Pre-nerf: 400pts. All imperium units gain +1 to charge, Reroll 1s to hit (shooting AND assault) and reroll failed morale tests if within 12' of girlyman. By taking him you gain 3CP if he is your warlord, Reroll hits AND wounds for all smurf units within 6' of him. Has a 3++ save and if you do kill him he has a 50% chance to come back with D6 wounds. So what is his purpose? He sits with a huge gunline all within 6' of him and lets them UNLOAD on his enemies. It was not at all uncommon to see several vehicles and entire squads of smurfs within 6' of him. He was completely capable of buffing his entire army without trying that hard. IF you ever did get close enough to attack him in CC he was a decent beat stick and could still rely on his 3++ save.

Margaret Thatcher: (Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka) 235pts. So right off the bat 165pts cheaper. He gives +1 attacks to units that charge and are within 6' of him when they activate. Meaning they have to finish their charge within 6' of ghaz. This generally means you are daisy chaining back to him or you forget or the unit is too small and you don't get his buff. What else do you get for that massive investment.....the same as you do for a 78pt warboss. Except his Klaw is slightly better and his stats are a bit better, T6 Vs T5. Ohh, and he comes with a 4++ save

So 165pts gets you army wide rerolls to hit and wound if within range, +1 charge distance, reroll failed morale checks a better invuln save, not to mention being 3' faster, more wounds, more attacks, a better CC weapon and a better ranged weapon

So yeah....He was OP as all hell when compared to another factions best character. And keep in mind that is after he was nerfed, he used to be 360pts so only 125pts more then Margaret.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





well honestly sounds to me more like Ghaz is grosely over costed (sadly :( )

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

BrianDavion wrote:
well honestly sounds to me more like Ghaz is grosely over costed (sadly :( )
It can be both.

It can also be that the Marine Codex was full of crap, and the Ork Codex was less so, so despite Ghaz giving worse buffs on a worse chassis, the 'Dex as a whole was better.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Is gazz a lord of war? Oh yeah...hes not.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Douglasville, GA

Should we compare G-Man to the Ork LoWs instead then? Cuz then the comparison gets WAY worse.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 fraser1191 wrote:
I'd say Guilliman was nerfed in the since that you have to use the correct weapons against targets. More or less you just have to set yourself up for wounding on 3s and getting the reroll of 1 as opposed to aiming at undesirable targets knowing you'll get full rerolls anyway
I'm pretty much fine with the aura being changed. Lots of ground was made up in other areas. Gman just isn't that great right now. Hes overcosted like magnus now - doing nothing that special but still being a beast. Being a beast is meaningless when 90-130 point characters are 1 shooting knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flandarz wrote:
Should we compare G-Man to the Ork LoWs instead then? Cuz then the comparison gets WAY worse.
No comparable lord of war. So orks have nothing to compare. You have to compare him to calgar. Who does the important thing of buffing your army but also fill mandatory HQ (big deal for marines) and he now also regens command points where gman does not. Hes got more killing power and some minor buffs to hand out beyond that but it's not anywhere near close to being worth 150 points more (plus the other required expenditures of getting another HQ. Though with the chaplain being okay now that might not matter so much). 150 points is a redemptor dread. Ill take my additional redemptor dread all day now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

While the army is better, the mera build was spamming high rof medium strength shooting. Those lists weren't taking heavy weapons or grav cannons etc.
Trying to build a balanced list that can deal with infantry spam upto knights is going to be a challenge for a lot of marine player's to re-adjust.

And this is why Guilliman nerf is a good thing, he promoted a stupid way to play.
He only promoted that way of play for Ultramarines obviously. The other chapters would have been equally popular with different types of builds with CT applying to vehicals. That is really what it boils down to. Other chapters getting a useful trait for their vehcials while ultras tactic is extremely garbage and 400 point tax for gman to function. They would have been pretty close in power level. You really don't think -2 to hit stormravens and fireraptors would have been the best build if it was available? Now ultras are special in another way and people will almost undoubtably complain about that too. ULTRAS ARE OP cause they can move and shoot with their bolters yada yada yada. I expect a host of nerfs to ultras in the first couple of weeks of the codex release while the obviously more powerful Iron Hands remain untouched. Just wait and see.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/12 02:17:38


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

Guilleman had to take a hit though or else the other marines could never get buffed without breaking the game. Imagine old style guilleman buffing these new marines, it'd be busted as hell. It should say something that marines were considered an awful codex and guilleman was so good you could still win tournaments with him back when he first came out. Between Bolter drill, tac doctrines, shock assault, and various point tweaks and who knows what all strategems, he just did too much.

This way you can buff say a tac marine to be useful for a chapter like Iron Hands without having to worry that an Ultramarines one is going to be too powerful because guilleman was letting him reroll everything.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to remeber is Gulliman is, whatever else, a complete beast up close. and now Ultrmarines are going to be enchouraged to run much more mobile battlelines. Gulliman will, more reliably see close combat


Yeah, they're more mobile, but they still don't actually wanna get into melee, Girlybro or no GirlyBro.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





ERJAK wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
One thing to remeber is Gulliman is, whatever else, a complete beast up close. and now Ultrmarines are going to be enchouraged to run much more mobile battlelines. Gulliman will, more reliably see close combat


Yeah, they're more mobile, but they still don't actually wanna get into melee, Girlybro or no GirlyBro.


intercessors are hitting 3 attacks per model on the charge, with -1 AP STR 4 re-rolling misses and rolls of 1 to wound.. they're reasonably potent.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it.


Its human nature. The models I can't take deserve a nerfing. The grass on your side is greener.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




To me it comes down to GW giving more and more traits and unique strats to factions and units. It's a big game that they already are not great at balancing but combining points with the latter creates even more issues.

How do you properly balance any given unit when it has so many variables. Bobby G boosts ultras but no other marine units in some ways, and gives a buff to every IOM unit in some way, plus he himself is a melee monsters. So how do you cost a unit when it might be meh or really good if I happen to put another unit on the board with an aura, a strat or some other trick.

GW continues to add more and more variables for any given unit and that makes it hard to figure what anything should cost as 40k feels more and more like a combo card game than any kind of table top battle sim.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




So while it is a nerf... the amount of overreaction here is so real. All the other SM basically got buffed (more or less), and G man is still probably very usable in the 'right' list. His damage output is still disgusting, he still has character protection, etc. Yeah you lose the reroll wounds but every other SM has been buffed. Why does everyone act like the sky is falling? Thread should just be locked tbh... The entire thread title of "guillman nerfed" seems inflammatory... what about all the buffs to SM? There has been like one comment in this entire thread taking that into context...

This is the same thing we saw with the chaos knights release - everyone acted like OMG infernal so good, yet every top 4 we've seen ITC (True) has been Iconoclast...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/12 05:17:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





orkswubwub wrote:
So while it is a nerf... the amount of overreaction here is so real. All the other SM basically got buffed (more or less), and G man is still probably very usable in the 'right' list. His damage output is still disgusting, he still has character protection, etc. Yeah you lose the reroll wounds but every other SM has been buffed. Why does everyone act like the sky is falling? Thread should just be locked tbh... The entire thread title of "guillman nerfed" seems inflammatory... what about all the buffs to SM? There has been like one comment in this entire thread taking that into context...

This is the same thing we saw with the chaos knights release - everyone acted like OMG infernal so good, yet every top 4 we've seen ITC (True) has been Iconoclast...


I wouldn't say it's a nerf, but a sidegrade might be accurate. The points reduction is a boost to make him more palatable to UM lists. People are making too big of a deal over the reduced wound re-rolls. Remember the thread about Salamander Predator Anhilators now being able to almost duplicate his OLD hit/wound reroll? And how unimpressed people were? That didn't even cost you 350 points.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Ice_can wrote:
But as you say every target worth focusing is hiding behind atleast-1 to hit. .


Well Guilliman got buffed against -x to hit at least as he got the cawl style reroll. No more "can't reroll this 3 because it's miss after modifier"

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/08/19/tneva82-stand-fast-menand-elves-of-the-west/ <- lotr painting blog

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
3225 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

I'm confused how anyone can say gman deserved it.

I've seen UM armies with Gman in the center and a shooty battery close to him.
I absolutely dislike this kind of tactics.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: