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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 flandarz wrote:
I mean, unless you're getting hit by AP-4, Marines are still gonna atleast GET a Save. Boyz lose their Save at -1. Just ugly.

getting a 5+ or 6+ save when you pay a lot to have better than that is the biggest problem with the marine army. Damage has NEVER been the issue with marines.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Douglasville, GA

Technically, you still have a 3+ Save. AP affects the roll, not the characteristic. Semantics aside: I'd still rather have a 1 in 3 or 1 in 6 chance to avoid damage than no chance at all. Plenty of units out there pay MORE per model for worse Saves than a 3+ (and worse statlines in general).

And, all that said, I'm kinda in agreement. Honestly, anything capable of taking out a full unit of normal infantry shouldn't have AP at all, with Elite Infantry killers having moderate AP (-1 and -2) with less shots, and Heavy killers having the highest AP and least shots. But we already know GW ain't the best in regards to balancing.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 flandarz wrote:
Technically, you still have a 3+ Save. AP affects the roll, not the characteristic. Semantics aside: I'd still rather have a 1 in 3 or 1 in 6 chance to avoid damage than no chance at all. Plenty of units out there pay MORE per model for worse Saves than a 3+ (and worse statlines in general).

And, all that said, I'm kinda in agreement. Honestly, anything capable of taking out a full unit of normal infantry shouldn't have AP at all, with Elite Infantry killers having moderate AP (-1 and -2) with less shots, and Heavy killers having the highest AP and least shots. But we already know GW ain't the best in regards to balancing.
Ap dopesnt affect the invo save. your save goes up no matter what I shoot at you other than mortal wounds.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Technically, you still have a 3+ Save. AP affects the roll, not the characteristic. Semantics aside: I'd still rather have a 1 in 3 or 1 in 6 chance to avoid damage than no chance at all. Plenty of units out there pay MORE per model for worse Saves than a 3+ (and worse statlines in general).

And, all that said, I'm kinda in agreement. Honestly, anything capable of taking out a full unit of normal infantry shouldn't have AP at all, with Elite Infantry killers having moderate AP (-1 and -2) with less shots, and Heavy killers having the highest AP and least shots. But we already know GW ain't the best in regards to balancing.
Ap dopesnt affect the invo save. your save goes up no matter what I shoot at you other than mortal wounds.
Again, have you seen the top-tables of Orks filled with Kustom Force Fields?

No?

Then you should be able to beat the folks who do take 'em, if you're good enough.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






You can win a tourney with orks in any number of ways - the codex is loaded.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
What game do you play where every ork isn't getting a 5++. Cause that's how it is around here man.


I routinely play ITC and other competitive events....I routinely finish in the top 5....I have never taken a KFF in 8th....ever. Why? Because investing that many points to give orkz +1 save is silly. And I say +1 because while -1 AP is common, it is far more common to face AP0 weapons.

 Xenomancers wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
I mean, unless you're getting hit by AP-4, Marines are still gonna atleast GET a Save. Boyz lose their Save at -1. Just ugly.

getting a 5+ or 6+ save when you pay a lot to have better than that is the biggest problem with the marine army. Damage has NEVER been the issue with marines.


And if your opponent is launching -2 and -3 AP weapons against your Tac Marines then you are doing ok because they are investing a lot of effort into killing 12pt models.


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or 2 wounds for the price of 1 with double the attacks isnt that bad of a thing, yeah its 3+ vs 6+ save, but there are so many AP weapons now i'd rather have the wounds than the saves.


With the new Codex coming out the SM's are going to be 12pts for a tac Marine. Orkz are currently 7pts per boy. So the way the works out is that Space Marines are about 33% More durable pt for pt then Orkz against AP0 weapons. 84pts of Tacs Vs 84pts of boyz. Boyz get 12 models, Marines get 7. Boyz and Marines are T4 with 1wound. Marines are 3+ while boyz are 6+ So to kill those 12 boyz outright takes 14 wounds from an AP0 weapon, to kill those 7 Marines it takes 21.

Against AP-1 weapons the math works out as such, to kill Boyz you need 12 shots, to kill the Space Marines you need 14shots, so again pt for pt, SM's are more durable. Now, when you finally get into the -2 AP arena, that is when Orkz start pulling ahead. To kill boyz its still 12shots, to kill those marines its now 9ish shots. But again, if your enemy is hitting your 12pt models with -2 AP weapons, you are doing alright.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
You can win a tourney with orks in any number of ways - the codex is loaded.


False, the codex is not loaded by any stretch of the imagination. Most of our builds are useless and the only competitive ones focus around gimmicks which are easily countered and have 2 hard counters in the tournament meta. But, lets play devils advocate here, what are the "number of ways" to me that means 3+ competitive builds, so lets hear it, also please back that up with evidence from major tournaments. anything under 20 people is a local game in my book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/13 02:27:31


If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Douglasville, GA

I'm also curious about this. From my understanding, most lists doing well in tournaments feature some combination of Lootas, SSAG, Dakkajets, Gretchin, and Mek Gunz, while the remainder of the army either supports these units, grabs Objectives, or ties up units in CC. That's not really "any number of ways". That's more like 1 way (relying on solid ranged units) with small variances depending on player which generally all fall into specific categories.

Not saying the Ork Codex ain't good. Just that you have a habit of over-exaggerating the power of other Factions and the lack thereof of your own.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





funny all I hear is Ork players complaining their codex options aren't good eneugh and all their options where nerfed.


One wonders if you can detect the irony

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Douglasville, GA

Really? Check the Taktikz thread. The vast majority of people posting in there are in agreement that the Ork Codex is fine and dandy. Maybe you just know a lot of whiners?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Orks are my favorite codex atm. Really well done. They are solid without feeling impossible to beat, unlike old Ynarri.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
Orks are my favorite codex atm. Really well done. They are solid without feeling impossible to beat, unlike old Ynarri.

I feel the same about that and the Tyranid codex, though granted some things could absolutely be fixed.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Douglasville, GA

I agree with you both. Barring outliers like the Stompa and Burna Boyz, the Ork Codex is pretty solid. Even the weaker options tend to have SOME worth.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 flandarz wrote:
Really? Check the Taktikz thread. The vast majority of people posting in there are in agreement that the Ork Codex is fine and dandy. Maybe you just know a lot of whiners?


there was some gurmbling by one or two people about Orks when the Marines where released, the useal "how dare GW give their best selling product line stuff instead of what I want" the point is that every codex has a handful of players who basicly bitch whine and moan about EVERYTHING in their codex "MY BASIC TROOPS CAN'T ONE SHOT A KNIGHT THEY SUCK!" etc.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





 Xenomancers wrote:

It is a lot bigger nerf than you are claiming AND repulsors also went up in price. Basically. GW is dumb and while they buffed a lot of the things in the codex. They made sure to NERF the most powerful marine build EVEN THOUGH it was a bottom tier option. This marks the 4th time they nerfed gman this edition. Making him the most nerfed unit in 40k history I am pretty sure.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I am looking forward to seeing how Roboute performs in his new form. It was obvious he had to see some changes considering that he was an insane multiplier that threw away any resemblance of choice in the codex.

Chapter tactics not applying to vehicles through away any semblance of choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I'm still waiting for the time when you don't need sniper rifles to pick out a man the size of a tank behind regular guardsmen.
Just like daemon princes and ctan and Avatars and a host of other big characters with 9 wounds or less.


Reroll All/Most failed wounds, and reroll 1's isn't THAT big of a nerf.

10 Intercessors then vs now - double tap, vs T4, 3+

20 shots, 13.4 hits reroll gets you another 4.489 17.889 hits

17.889 hits 8.9445 woundings reroll 13.41675 woundings
17.889 hits 8.9445 woundings reroll 1's 10.37562 woundings

13.41675 woundings with a 3+ -1 Armor Save - 6.708375 wounds.
11.896185 woundings with a 3+ -2 Armor Save - 6.9516654 wounds.

The difference between reroll 1's and reroll wounds on a 4+ to wound is 3.04113 woundings. About 22% And it's more than made up for by Tactical Doctrine which is improved by Son's of Guilliaman And we haven't started rerolling 3's and 4's to hit that would have failed and could/couldn't be rerolled depending on who last updated the GW FAQ on Rerolls and modifiers. And we haven't added in his shooting yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pods are still the same points value and marine units that can go in a pod are strongest on turn 2 so turn 1 drop makes no sense. Basically. Pods are useless still without a point drop to 30-40 points. Tacs going to 12 with these new rules is interesting. Then you look at an aggressor and you say never mind.

GW is great at making issues out of nothing and ignoring actual problems. Gman is basically useless now. He wont see play. Except in knight lists. Just watch.


I agree Pods on Turn 1 probably isn't going to be a thing. I disagree the solution is to make them cheaper. The solution is to give them a bigger gun so they can't be ignored. Drop an Empty Pod on a Guardsman squad - 10 T3 5+ wounds - on Turn 1 and the Guardsman squad will live to the end of the game statistically speaking. If a 10 man Guard Infantry squad can tank a Drop Pod for 6 turns why does ANYONE need to move away from/attack or otherwise alter their plans because of it? Give that Drop Pod a TL Assault Cannon hanging from the ceiling with Heavy 12 S6 shots, and then people start paying attention to it on your timetable not theirs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/13 06:30:49


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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