Welcome to a thread without a particular agenda. Seriously, I’m not up to owt, or trying to persuade people to my point of view on a given unit.
What I’m looking for here are voices of longer term experience. Not because snootiness or elitism etc. Rather, I want to explore units once more or less terrors of the field which have lost their sheen.
Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.
Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.
They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.
Now how to fix them? Possibly another thread. Certainly I don’t know enough about modern 40k to say what they need. But for now, sound off the units you used to have a firm role for, that over various rules changes have lost their way.
Working from hearsay, but it sounds like Assault marines don’t work like they used to. The lack of melee attacks and hammer of wrath (moved to a stratagem) means they can’t catapult into melee like they used to, and are better suited to dropping near opponents or on unprotected objectives and striking at range.
Zoanthropes spring to mind. They used to be Nid's most reliable ranged anti-tank weapon with like Lance, S10 and like AP2 or something they could pop open a land raider with relative ease. Now they just sputter put a couple of mortal wounds a turn.
Lots of DE units....... For example Reavers use to be fast units that never got into combat unless they had to, you just Fly By and dealt damage, they were basically harasser units, now they are str4 -1ap instead of D6 S6 and D3 S6 drive by hits.
Why did it change? No one knows, GW just hates DE.
Trueborn: used to be the elite version of Dark Eldar warriors, similar to a Wolf Guard/Chosen/Veterans/whatever where you build all the special weapons in a kit to make a more elite version of a unit.
Now they're busy not...doing that....because they aren't a thing anymore for no reason despite all the other armies not losing those kinds of units.
Harlequin jetbikes used to either be a fast antielite melee unit or a sort of wham-bam alpha strike unit where you took all the star bolas and got a single use super powerful attack.
Then, GW made those weapons the Grenade type, meaning there's a weapon you can take on all models in the box...that only one model can use in the unit...feth those of us who made a 4-man squad with star bolas I guess!
Every medium walker in the game used to be kind of a midrange shooting threat/late game melee threat that would walk to about 24" firing weapons like shuriken cannons, assault cannons, rokkit launchas, etc. Then, the game got so laughably deadly that the simple idea of any unit being able to survive until turn 3 became a distant, fond memory, and every Deff Dread/Wraithlord/Killa Kan/Dreadnought with one gun got returned to the shelf to collect dust.
Psykers used to be a flexible support/offense unit, where they could use their power options to fulfil a variety of roles. They used to be allowed to be anti-horde, anti-elite, anti-tank, or buff/debuff based, but generally were not better than a specialist unit with a fixed role at that job. Now, psychic powers must be either buffs/debuffs or only anti-elite, because for some reason in a game where charging anything into melee combat requires seventeen distinct movements and dice rolling steps, "mind bullets working like regular bullets" was just too complicated.
Ork Boyz used to be a slow moving melee horde. Now they are incapable of performing that role because weapons exist that remove 40 models costing over 100 USD from the board in a single turn. Now they are a deep striking suicide horde unit for some reason.
Come to think of it, lots of units are now deep striking suicide guys now.
Eldar Guardians
Deathwatch Veterans/smallmarines in general
Genestealers/GSC Thousand Sons
huge blobs of kabalite warriors
Why do all these things that didn't have deep strike now deep strike and suicide instead of move around on the board while trying to do stuff?
Cryptek, when it was introduced it had five disciplines to choose from, each with its own wargear and weapons, altering Crypteks use. Long ranged Tremorstave made hit units treat open ground as difficult terrain, Abyssal staff was a flamer that rolled to Wound againts Ld, ect. Making it feel like a techno-wizard.
Now you get a buff and choice between a looted KFF or a jump pack.
Windriders have lost their role as a CORE unit for Saim-Hann armies, since you can't really be a core unit while not being Troops. Don't get me wrong, I love all the changes they've made to Windriders since 7E, EXCEPT not being Troops. While you COULD still have a list filled with Windriders in Outrider Detachment, you basically get no CPs for doing so. You end up being required to take at least 1 Battalion, making some other Troop the real CORE of the list.
Even worse, as Fast Attack they have even LESS purpose since Spears and Vypers can do what WRs can + more or better
Tyranid Genestealers - but now they're back! Genestealers were frightening in 3rd because they had power weapons. They got changed to Rending, but 3rd ed. rending was fantastic, and a squad of Genestealers could still kill a Land Raider just by scratching it to death (each hit roll of 6 was auto-wounding and bypassed armor, or was a "glancing hit" on a vehicle - pile up a dozen of those and a vehicle was generally toast). Vehicles only got tougher from then, and Rending only got worse. Genestealers got less and less expensive, but kept losing things that made them good. What changed to make Genestealers bad, but then has changed to make them good again? The thing that made them bad was that they lost lethality, got slower compared to other forces and to other units within the Tyranid codex itself, and opponents both got tougher (Knights, Flyers, Riptides, Wave Serpents) and faster. Why are Genestealers back? 8th was kind enough to make Genestealers very very fast. They gained some lethality too, but mostly it's their speed that makes them an asset. So, to sum up, they lost their role of being blenders, but have gained a new role of being true terror troops.
Chaos Possessed - I remember people talking about these guys being nuts, but it was 3.5 edition Chaos Codex, so everything for them was. What changed? Well, their mutations lost the selectability, and even the best results are neutered compared to before. Ultimately, they became a unit that did less than the basic guys, and they're supposed to be better than the basic guys.
I feel a lot of it has to do with how editions changed the mechanics of the game. Units where designed during a specific edition and when the edition changed and rules shifted those units were stuck in time because the game very rarely did anything to correct those units.
8th has done the most to try and address things since the drastic changes of RT to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd, but even then it hasn't reallyshown an effort to bring those units in line with the rest of the game.
Imperial Guard conscripts used to be good at drowning the enemy in bodies, back when they were 3 pts each while regular guardsmen were 5 pts. Now conscripts are 4 pts, the same price as guardsmen (which is just... baffling); their minimum unit size is still 20, in an edition where large units are less advantageous, while their maximum unit size has been brought down from 50 to 30; and they can no longer be made Fearless by adding a priest to their unit. There is no reason whatsoever to take them over regular guardsmen!
Imperial Guard Chimeras are now pretty useless too. You cannot shoot your special or heavy weapons out of them, and your units are not really worth transporting. My four Chimeras have been gathering dust since the start of this edition.
I would add the Vendetta gunship (now a Forge World exclusive) to the lot. Counting the cost of the three twin lascannons, my faithful old gunship is now monstrously overpriced, especially in an edition where even vehicles suffer hit penalties when shooting with heavy weapons after moving.
I've seen the argument that Fast Attack units in general have lost a lot of their usefulness, given that vehicles no longer have facings.
Stormonu wrote: Working from hearsay, but it sounds like Assault marines don’t work like they used to. The lack of melee attacks and hammer of wrath (moved to a stratagem) means they can’t catapult into melee like they used to, and are better suited to dropping near opponents or on unprotected objectives and striking at range.
Yea they're not a problem with the new supplements. You're quite likely to see them more.
Yeah, VotLW my ass. Paying more for SMtac, gaining no abilities (ATSNKF,Doctrines,etc) They lost Marks, they lost icons. Respectively the icons are not worth it beeing so bad and or only usefull for specific units.
Not only that but once upon a time the basic murderhobo that is a chaos space marine had FULL equipment, as in BOLTER; BOLTPISTOL AND CHAINSWORD. This was supposed to be the trade off between SM and CSM. Now nothing, a pitifull unit showing the state of the whole codex in a nutshell.
Cultists:
Spoiler:
Paying more then a guardsmen for the privilege of worse morale, worse equipment, having no acess to traits anymore. Nough said?
Raptors:
Spoiler:
Like with basic CSM compared to SM equivalent, payimg more for less. Does not work.
Chosen:
Spoiler:
A 1W supposedly elite choice, costing more, gaining one A and. That's it. It0s a bad unit, that has no niche, can do nothing good and requires alot ALOT more points to achieve a similar result then other options in the dex.
Add in the issues of no specialisation like with CSM and you get the perfect gak unit. Only saving grace, you can give them a BOLTGUN AND CHAINSWORD, HIP HIP HURAY GW. HIP HIP HURAY.
Noise marines:
Spoiler:
Sonic blasters don't get effected by bolter drill. Overpricced as they allready are like most one W 1 marines. probably the single worst cultmarine.
Hellturkey:
Spoiler:
Once the terror of the sky, now the laughing stock. Overpriced, bad even in melee, generating no -1 to hit against it, even though it is faster then alot of flyers that get that benefit. The flamer is an overpriced piece of equipment and the Hades autocannon is stuck on a plattform that can't get use out of it.
Forgiefiend:
Spoiler:
A shooty daemonengine, paying for having BS3+, oh actually it doesn't. Still pays as if.
Lord discordant:
Spoiler:
Okay, the LOD is allright, however he is targetable, has T6. AND FAILS ATIT?S INTENDED BLOODY JOB, making daemonengines dakka viable. Ha can't do that.
Infact WTF did GW not just give his +1 to hit to a BLOODY WARPSMITH? Also, why can't he repair even though he is a warpsmith?
He is good, because he is relatively cheap melee monster in an army that can fling stuff. He is bad because the BASIC CONCEPT AND DESIGN of him FAILED.
And now R&H version.
Commander:
Spoiler:
No demagogue options anymore, grants covenants instead, army wide. Did we mention they suck utterly?
Malefic Lord:
Spoiler:
Like cultists, except got the banhammer right into the crown jewels. Also their IG equivalent is fine at 40 pts?!? HOW COME GW?
Militia:
Spoiler:
R&H were once defined by this troop choice, because it was adaptable, and priced good, in an edition were troops mostly sucked and required instead slot fillers from troopified FA /Elite units, these gems shone brightly.
Priced at 3PPM and with a capability to match that, they were trainable, equipable, moldable by demagogue devotion and could just as easily be turned into a bunch of servitors, as they could represent fanatic crusaders for the gory of chaos as they could represent trained units.
Now, they cost 4 ppm for beeing worse then a conscript. Yes WORSE then a conscript. No more adaptability aswell, no more backbone.
Literally ALL R&H player used that troop unit voluntarily in an edition were you avoided them like the plague, now they get maybee fielded as the cheap illoyal 32 MAYBEE, if you feel like you want an ACTIVE 170 pts handicap.
And you wonder why R&H players are bitter?
Renegade Cultists:
Spoiler:
Imagine CSM cultists, but worse. Somehow. Great init?
Mutants:
Spoiler:
the new mutation table is suicidal, sucks and the equipment sucks even more. Also the OG carrier of stubpistols, which are s3 d1 Range 6", how the feth the kellermorphs one work is beyond me.
R&H Chaos Spawn:
Spoiler:
Chaos spawn, except 33 pts instead of 25.
Disciples:
Spoiler:
Veterans, paying 20 % more, for less access to equipment. Atleast they don't get crippled from Random LD as the rest of the book.
Welcome to a thread without a particular agenda. Seriously, I’m not up to owt, or trying to persuade people to my point of view on a given unit.
What I’m looking for here are voices of longer term experience. Not because snootiness or elitism etc. Rather, I want to explore units once more or less terrors of the field which have lost their sheen.
Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.
Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.
They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.
Now how to fix them? Possibly another thread. Certainly I don’t know enough about modern 40k to say what they need. But for now, sound off the units you used to have a firm role for, that over various rules changes have lost their way.
Terminators really aren't a good example because only the particular Chaos ones were any good.
The real best example is Ogryns. They weren't even that good at their designated role, and Bullgryns pushed them out even further.
In order to adjust for deathstars in previous editions and flyers, super-heavy, rerollable X and Y in all editions since 6th, the game scaled up to the point that any subtlety is lost. Since 6th edition, possibly since 5th, WH40k is essentially a continuous cycle of a clumsy design team endlessly painting themselves into a corner, if one is magnanimous and wants to see no malice. The new smart-but-not-actually-smart design paradigm demands the use of characters that grant pedestrian buffs and pre-made combos. Such combos grant deadly outputs to already overpowered weapons with great rate of fire and strength. This demands either hordes over hordes, often with some ludicrous mobility gimmick (sounds familiar, ork players) or stacked resilience rules. To this, add any lack of vision and restraint, to the point that a rule granted to an army in order to make it barely functional is assigned to the new pet-army of the designer that is currently the loudest rooster singing in the team, or something. There is no space for boyz in transports, aspects, or slightly more specialized units based on generalists in this nightmare.
Yeah, Votwl my ass. Paying more for SMtac, gaining no abilities (ATSNKF,Doctrines,etc) They lost Marks, they lost icons. Respectively the icons are not worth it beeing so bad and or only usefull for specific units.
Not only that but once upon a time the basic murderhobo that is a chaos space marine had FULL equipment, as in BOLTER; BOLTPISTOL AND CHAINSWORD. This was supposed to be the trade off between SM and CSM. Now nothing, a pitifull unit showing the state of the whole codex in a nutshell.
Cultists:
Spoiler:
Paying more then a guardsmen for the privilege of worse morale, worse equipment, having no acess to traits anymore. Nough said?
Raptors:
Spoiler:
Like with basic CSM compared to SM equivalent, payimg more for less. Does not work.
Chosen:
Spoiler:
A 1W supposedly elite choice, costing more, gaining one A and. That's it. It0s a bad unit, that has no niche, can do nothing good and requires alot ALOT more points to achieve a similar result then other options in the dex.
Add in the issues of no specialisation like with CSM and you get the perfect gak unit. Only saving grace, you can give them a BOLTGUN AND CHAINSWORD, HIP HIP HURAY GW. HIP HIP HURAY.
Noise marines:
Spoiler:
Sonic blasters don't get effected by bolter drill. Overpricced as they allready are like most one W 1 marines. probably the single worst cultmarine.
Hellturkey:
Spoiler:
Once the terror of the sky, now the laughing stock. Overpriced, bad even in melee, generating no -1 to hit against it, even though it is faster then alot of flyers that get that benefit. The flamer is an overpriced piece of equipment and the Hades autocannon is stuck on a plattform that can't get use out of it.
Forgiefiend:
Spoiler:
A shooty daemonengine, paying for having BS3+, oh actually it doesn't. Still pays as if.
Lord discordant:
Spoiler:
Okay, the LOD is allright, however he is targetable, has T6. AND FAILS ATIT?S INTENDED BLOODY JOB, making daemonengines dakka viable. Ha can't do that.
Infact WTF did GW not just give his +1 to hit to a BLOODY WARPSMITH? Also, why can't he repair even though he is a warpsmith?
He is good, because he is relatively cheap melee monster in an army that can fling stuff. He is bad because the BASIC CONCEPT AND DESIGN of him FAILED.
And now R&H version.
Commander:
Spoiler:
No demagogue options anymore, grants covenants instead, army wide. Did we mention they suck utterly?
Malefic Lord:
Spoiler:
Like cultists, except got the banhammer right into the crown jewels. Also their IG equivalent is fine at 40 pts?!? HOW COME GW?
Militia:
Spoiler:
R&H were once defined by this troop choice, because it was adaptable, and priced good, in an edition were troops mostly sucked and required instead slot fillers from troopified FA /Elite units, these gems shone brightly.
Priced at 3PPM and with a capability to match that, they were trainable, equipable, moldable by demagogue devotion and could just as easily be turned into a bunch of servitors, as they could represent fanatic crusaders for the gory of chaos as they could represent trained units.
Now, they cost 4 ppm for beeing worse then a conscript. Yes WORSE then a conscript. No more adaptability aswell, no more backbone.
Literally ALL R&H player used that troop unit voluntarily in an edition were you avoided them like the plague, now they get maybee fielded as the cheap illoyal 32 MAYBEE, if you feel like you want an ACIVE 170 pts handicap.
And you wonder why R&H players are bitter?
Renegade Cultists:
Spoiler:
Imagine CSM cultists, but worse. Somehow. Great init?
Mutants:
Spoiler:
the new mutation table is suicidal, sucks and the equipment sucks even more. Also the OG carrier of stubpistols, which are s3 d1 Range 6", how the feth the kellermorphs one work is beyond me.
R&H Chaos Spawn:
Spoiler:
Chaos spawn, except 33 pts instead of 25.
Disciples:
Spoiler:
Veterans, paying 20 % more, for less access to equipment. Atleast they don't get crippled from Random LD as the rest of the book.
I think CSMs could be fixed with a CA points update, and damn well should be. I do agree losing the chainsword is annoying as hell. but apparently chaos marines can't be as cool as grey hunters :(
Yeah, Votwl my ass. Paying more for SMtac, gaining no abilities (ATSNKF,Doctrines,etc) They lost Marks, they lost icons. Respectively the icons are not worth it beeing so bad and or only usefull for specific units.
Not only that but once upon a time the basic murderhobo that is a chaos space marine had FULL equipment, as in BOLTER; BOLTPISTOL AND CHAINSWORD. This was supposed to be the trade off between SM and CSM. Now nothing, a pitifull unit showing the state of the whole codex in a nutshell.
Cultists:
Spoiler:
Paying more then a guardsmen for the privilege of worse morale, worse equipment, having no acess to traits anymore. Nough said?
Raptors:
Spoiler:
Like with basic CSM compared to SM equivalent, payimg more for less. Does not work.
Chosen:
Spoiler:
A 1W supposedly elite choice, costing more, gaining one A and. That's it. It0s a bad unit, that has no niche, can do nothing good and requires alot ALOT more points to achieve a similar result then other options in the dex.
Add in the issues of no specialisation like with CSM and you get the perfect gak unit. Only saving grace, you can give them a BOLTGUN AND CHAINSWORD, HIP HIP HURAY GW. HIP HIP HURAY.
Noise marines:
Spoiler:
Sonic blasters don't get effected by bolter drill. Overpricced as they allready are like most one W 1 marines. probably the single worst cultmarine.
Hellturkey:
Spoiler:
Once the terror of the sky, now the laughing stock. Overpriced, bad even in melee, generating no -1 to hit against it, even though it is faster then alot of flyers that get that benefit. The flamer is an overpriced piece of equipment and the Hades autocannon is stuck on a plattform that can't get use out of it.
Forgiefiend:
Spoiler:
A shooty daemonengine, paying for having BS3+, oh actually it doesn't. Still pays as if.
Lord discordant:
Spoiler:
Okay, the LOD is allright, however he is targetable, has T6. AND FAILS ATIT?S INTENDED BLOODY JOB, making daemonengines dakka viable. Ha can't do that.
Infact WTF did GW not just give his +1 to hit to a BLOODY WARPSMITH? Also, why can't he repair even though he is a warpsmith?
He is good, because he is relatively cheap melee monster in an army that can fling stuff. He is bad because the BASIC CONCEPT AND DESIGN of him FAILED.
And now R&H version.
Commander:
Spoiler:
No demagogue options anymore, grants covenants instead, army wide. Did we mention they suck utterly?
Malefic Lord:
Spoiler:
Like cultists, except got the banhammer right into the crown jewels. Also their IG equivalent is fine at 40 pts?!? HOW COME GW?
Militia:
Spoiler:
R&H were once defined by this troop choice, because it was adaptable, and priced good, in an edition were troops mostly sucked and required instead slot fillers from troopified FA /Elite units, these gems shone brightly.
Priced at 3PPM and with a capability to match that, they were trainable, equipable, moldable by demagogue devotion and could just as easily be turned into a bunch of servitors, as they could represent fanatic crusaders for the gory of chaos as they could represent trained units.
Now, they cost 4 ppm for beeing worse then a conscript. Yes WORSE then a conscript. No more adaptability aswell, no more backbone.
Literally ALL R&H player used that troop unit voluntarily in an edition were you avoided them like the plague, now they get maybee fielded as the cheap illoyal 32 MAYBEE, if you feel like you want an ACIVE 170 pts handicap.
And you wonder why R&H players are bitter?
Renegade Cultists:
Spoiler:
Imagine CSM cultists, but worse. Somehow. Great init?
Mutants:
Spoiler:
the new mutation table is suicidal, sucks and the equipment sucks even more. Also the OG carrier of stubpistols, which are s3 d1 Range 6", how the feth the kellermorphs one work is beyond me.
R&H Chaos Spawn:
Spoiler:
Chaos spawn, except 33 pts instead of 25.
Disciples:
Spoiler:
Veterans, paying 20 % more, for less access to equipment. Atleast they don't get crippled from Random LD as the rest of the book.
I think CSMs could be fixed with a CA points update, and damn well should be. I do agree losing the chainsword is annoying as hell. but apparently chaos marines can't be as cool as grey hunters :(
Nope, a price fix ain't doing anything.
Else you would need to price a csm at 10 pts.
Quite literally because he is baseline without traits even taken into consideration worse then a tac.
And has no acess to ap -1 etc.
Assault Marines, for sure. Land Speeders and Vypers as well. They SHOULD be mobile fire support, but thanks to 8th rules and GW design philosophy generally, they usually die soon after bringing their guns into range. AND these supposedly fast, mobile units often suffer a to-hit penalty for.............................. MOVING.....
I'd be fine with CSMs reduced to the cost of a tac marine AND given the ability to take chainswords AND boltguns. it'd not be perfect but I'd accept that. but you're right that a race to the bottem isn't needed, CSMs need to be given some additional rules.
Lictors were once powerful and sneaky assassin units. Capable of hiding around the field, and depending on the edition either being very difficult to target, or being able to leap out of terrain right on top of an enemy unit (or both!). Every edition has made them slightly weaker than the one before.
Now they have limp-fisted melee attacks, often struggling even to kill a guard commander, let alone a space marine. Their sneaky deployment rules from previous editions are simply represented by a standard 9" deepstrike, with a re-roll to charge on the turn they arrive.
They've opted to keep reducing their points, rather than fix their rules. So these days the lictor merely serves occasionally as a cheap objective holder.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd be fine with CSMs reduced to the cost of a tac marine AND given the ability to take chainswords AND boltguns. it'd not be perfect but I'd accept that. but you're right that a race to the bottem isn't needed, CSMs need to be given some additional rules.
The issue i see with it is what would a Sisters player feel like?
And by consequence all other units.
And a race to the bottom ain't fun, especially not for the army that is supposed to have said bottom to work, like r&h did, which o wonder now doesn't work anymore Due to beeing to bad and not cheap enough comparativly.
Thanks gw.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
They've opted to keep reducing their points, rather than fix their rules. So these days the lictor merely serves occasionally as a cheap objective holder.
And have they allready replaced other options in the codex by getting cheaper and cheaper?
See this is what i mean, ca is an excuse, "look we fixed gak", even though they didn't.
They didn't make a unit playable by nerfing it's in codex replacement.
They didn't fix the issue the unit has due to not fixing the concept.
Welcome to a thread without a particular agenda. Seriously, I’m not up to owt, or trying to persuade people to my point of view on a given unit.
What I’m looking for here are voices of longer term experience. Not because snootiness or elitism etc. Rather, I want to explore units once more or less terrors of the field which have lost their sheen.
Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.
Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.
They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.
Now how to fix them? Possibly another thread. Certainly I don’t know enough about modern 40k to say what they need. But for now, sound off the units you used to have a firm role for, that over various rules changes have lost their way.
Terminators really aren't a good example because only the particular Chaos ones were any good.
I guess you missed 5th ed where everyone and their mum took TH/SS Termies...
Command Squads, both of the Space Marine and Sisters of Battle varieties. Protecting characters is barely necessary, all of the special minis that were once command-squad exclusive (standard bearers, medics, etc.) are now just Elite choice characters, so they just end up playing like more expensive Veteran-type units who aren't specialized enough to be useful.
So-far I agree with the list in regards to Space Marines:
1) Terminators
2) Assault Marines
Those stuck out the most in my mind.
I would submit #3:
#3) The SM skimmer.
Too many points and too fragile and they keep changing the allowable loadout.
I have shelved these guys for so long, maybe I can figure out something with the latest SM codex.
Welcome to a thread without a particular agenda. Seriously, I’m not up to owt, or trying to persuade people to my point of view on a given unit.
What I’m looking for here are voices of longer term experience. Not because snootiness or elitism etc. Rather, I want to explore units once more or less terrors of the field which have lost their sheen.
Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.
Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.
They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.
Now how to fix them? Possibly another thread. Certainly I don’t know enough about modern 40k to say what they need. But for now, sound off the units you used to have a firm role for, that over various rules changes have lost their way.
Terminators really aren't a good example because only the particular Chaos ones were any good.
I guess you missed 5th ed where everyone and their mum took TH/SS Termies...
No, not everyone. They were mediocre at best so there ya go.
Conscripts: Frankly, good riddance. I never liked the concept to begin with, and Infantry Squads fill the role nicely.
Veterans: Suffer from not being Scions with Deep Strike. Used to be point efficient to put them in a Chimera, where the speed and ability to use those concentrated special weapons was playable. Now, Chimera are too expensive, because Scions effectively get a free transport by deep striking, the 4+ save, and the ability to Deep Strike characters with them to issue orders. The unlikelihood of transports delivering cargo is a needless gamble while Scions exist.
Transports of all Kinds: Invalidated by Scion deep strike. For the cost of a transport, you can buy a second unit... that can also deep strike and be delivered *for certain*.
Ogryns: Invalidated by Bullgryns. If they had access to a longer range weapon (12” range, max) then having a softer, less punchier version would make sense... but once you’re within 12” you’d better be charging, so take Bullgryns.
Ratlings: I can’t really remember them ever being all that great... so they keep doing nothing.
Scout Sentinels: Outflanking heavy Weapons used to be good... but Deep Striking Scions are more reliable, points efficient, and generate more CP by being a Troop unit.
Armoured Sentinels: Used to be decent intercept units / tar pits, that also carried a heavy weapon to move with Russes. Infantry squads are more efficient and effective. In particular, the IS’s footprint makes for a better area denial. Also, by letting the Heavy weapon sit still, the rest of the squad can continue moving with the Tank, and your BS doesn’t suffer for moving that Model.
Platoon Commanders: Inefficient compared to Company Commanders.
Command Squads: inefficient compared to Deep Striking Scions.
Leman Russ - Non-HQ versions: The HQ versions have better BS, can issue buffs, and cost very little more. There’s no reason to take a Non-HQ version short of an unlikely shortage of HQ slots.
In essence, I find the IG codex to functionally be composed of Russ HQ’s, Company Commanders, Infantry Squads, Scions, Basilisks, and Manticores. (6 units) It’s not that you can’t use other units (I do all the time!) but from a strictly competitive standpoint these 6 units outclass all other units at a given role.
Depending on taste, support Characters like Commissars, Master of Ordnance, and Sargeant Harker are also taken. At 1500 points, I probably would spend about 100 points on these.
Mostly because Deep Striking Scions are more efficient and reliable than other codex options when it comes to mobility.
Im going to reiterate the choices of Conscripts, Veterans, and Ogryns. The guard codex has such a wonderful diversity and yet dosen't see much if it play due to the fact that there are some choices that well outshine them.
Consripts: This used to be a total garbage unit that was used for very specific purposes and builds. They were fun and not over the top. Now they just scream MEH, which is somewhat justified pre-nerf. I think they just needed to tone down Commissars instead of conscripts and made it a minimum sized 20 man unit.
Veterans: These guys were the go to for transports as they could be much pricier than the regular IF squad but they were far more effective at being special weapon squads and also acted as a nice alternative troop choice. Now scions over shine them. I really wish they could move the old 5th edition stormtrooper rules to Veterans were you could kit them out with special abilities for a point cost, like Carapace armor, deep striking, or anti tank bombs. That would make them interesting and at least do SOMETHING to make them feel different.
Ogryns: Well they never were all that great, with a 5+ save. Now that bullgryns exist they are much worse. They can definitely deal some wounds in CC but their weapons dont really make up for their lack of armor or CC weapons. I think they should be carrying something akin to a short range heavy bolter, something akin to what Inceptors have. \
Honestly I think one of the biggest flaws of the Guard book is the removal of the Platoon. It used to be if you wanted to have access to cheap troops you really needed to double down on the platoon to make it work. Now you just pick and choose. I'd love to see something where you have to get a Platoon Commander and 3 Infantry squads to fill in a troop slot. That saying I think it should also confer a nice bonus to that unit since they are part of the same platoon, i.e. bonus orders, leadership bonus, cheap transports, expanded Regiment rules, etc. This would also make veterans an alternative choice but they would have a larger price increase to compensate. Guard should be about massed infantry, tanks, or both. Right now we aren't seeing a whole lot beyond 32 and some artillery.
Burna Boyz - not great at cc, not great at shooting. In both instances, they are outdone by regular boyz but cost more than double and are just as fragile. Really doesn't play a role in the current Ork army, especially since they rely on transports which are already a sub-par choice in an ork army.
Mega Nobz - Damage output compared to regular nobz is significantly less given their cost, while their survivability is. No longer cheap enough to be a MANZ missile like the olden days due to trukks costing a premium, and tellyporting means they're more or less stuck where they land. More or less glorified objective holders and doesn't feel like the chosen elite of an Ork warband.
Killa Kanz - Once the staple of Dred Mobz everywhere, they are now the biggest liability in a dred mob list since they suffer from morale and don't benefit from kulturs. They don't have enough shooting output to be a good investment for their price, nor are they good in CC. Very sad since I love their models.
Nob Bikerz - Very similar to Mega Nobz, they used to be one of the key elite units in the Ork codex, and now they're more or less a joke. They hit as hard as a normal nob but cost way more. They're outdone in shooting by normal warbikerz and despite being fast, don't really do much in CC when they get there. Kind of the reverse of Mega Nobz in terms of issues, in that they're fast but they cost too much for doing too little, while the Mega Nobz cost too much for how slow they are and how little damage they do.
Grimskul wrote: Burna Boyz - not great at cc, not great at shooting. In both instances, they are outdone by regular boyz but cost more than double and are just as fragile. Really doesn't play a role in the current Ork army, especially since they rely on transports which are already a sub-par choice in an ork army.
Let me add to this almost every Ork blast weapon. Templates and blasts used to be the best way to compensate for our poor BS, but now random shots just contribute to poor ork BS and templates are hard to get in range with and harder to capitalize on. (Whereas they used to be hard to position but provide massive damage if you could get them working right.)
The Chimera is one that I'll echo, it has the classic problem of not being enough of a gunship to be work taking (hell, more lightly armed Rhinos give 'em a run for their money, especially if mobile) and the fact that the Chimera itself costs significantly more than anything you'd want to actually transport. Also, the necessity of transport just isn't there, the army really actively goes out of its way to make guard infantry want to foot slog and disincentivize mechanization.
I've got 19 painted Chimeras...it makes me cry.
With regards to other IG units, the Vanquisher is definitely a unit that has lost its role. It's a specialized anti-tank variant that is appalingly awful in an anti-tank role, with the purpose built dedicated purely anti-infantry version being almost identical in performance in that role.
The Deathstrike is another, it's supposed to be a big doomsday weapon, but it's unreliable, inconsistent, single use, unnecessarily delayed, and comically pillow fisted as a tabletop unit, it really should be more of a terrain piece or battlefield objective or support unit though
I'd nominate the Hydra as well, it's medicore at whacking planes and flyers in most cases, it's pretty bad at most anything else, and for some reason they insist on it being T6 (and my closed turret pre-'13 FW Hydras rather annoyed).
A lot of the IG elites, the Navy officer, Wyrdvane Psykers, Techpriests, etc bring little to the table worth bothering with.
Warlocks, too. Their shtick used to be that they had one power they could cast, but it was always "on" or didn't involve taking a psychic test. Then GW had the dumb idea to make them take tests in 7th, (8th is similar, yes?) effectively nullifying their entire purpose as a battlemage.
For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.
They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.
I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.
HoundsofDemos wrote: For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.
They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.
I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.
Yeah. Landspeeders and their ilk would benefit immensely from AA.
I echo -Guardsman-, greatbigtree, generalchaos34, and Vaktathi in that what started as a colourful list with loads of options has degenerated to a handful of efficient units...and a whole lot of unused ones. So I play armies with all sorts of strange Guard units and serve as a punching bag when facing most armies.
Now I would never want to go back to 3 point Conscripts, able to accept any order, with the old Commissar rules and Priests...because that unit seemed to be it's own must have. But because of that unit the Commissar went from a fairly benign colourful character model (in the opponent's view) who could save one unit a turn by executing a model for some fun for both sides to a figure that is never fielded any longer.
To be fair, that's kinda just 8th now, Brown. You got a few "great" units, maybe a half-dozen or so "good" units, and then the rest of the Codex might as well not exist for all the good they'll do ya.
HoundsofDemos wrote: For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.
They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.
I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.
Like assault marines these things have new life with the supplements.
HoundsofDemos wrote: For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.
They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.
I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.
Like assault marines these things have new life with the supplements.
So people have to pay extra for them to stop sucking?
flandarz wrote: To be fair, that's kinda just 8th now, Brown. You got a few "great" units, maybe a half-dozen or so "good" units, and then the rest of the Codex might as well not exist for all the good they'll do ya.
I started in 3rd edition and since then it's always been this way. They fix one problem, then replace it with another. They make one unit good, but unexpectedly gimp another. Ad nauseam. GW just doesn't focus on writing balanced, high-quality rules, and they even admit as much in interviews. 40k's 40th edition will be no different unless the priorities change within the company.
In general its safe to say that with the dramatic reduction of game rule complexity caused a lot of units to lose the mechanics and function that gave them some meaningful purpose (regardless of if they where viable or not).
Conscripts, they once had a purpose but weren't actually good for awhile, now they are just trash.
Commissars, were great, became ok, became great and now are meh. Thanks GW.
Ogryns, always bad, had chances to be good but never made so, maybe never will be and made pointless with Bullgryn.
Ratlings, I guess they were ok awhile back, now ? They are pretty bad.
Taurox, kinda pointless.
Chimera too expensive.
Rough riders, taken right out of the codex but could actually be worth it with a little touch up.
Sentinels, cheap yet not mobile for what should be a mobile fun platform to support infantry advancing ( armored ) or scout up and get sides and rear shots at enemy vehicles, now they just sit and shoot, mostly but that doesn't do much.
Veterans, over expensive and pointless and elites and not troops, sad.
Deathstrikes, never good may never be good.
Some of the hellhound variants pointless, over expensive.
Sanctioned psykers has been crap since they became a unit.
Lets see, some russ variants are just meh, Exterminator, Vanquisher, Eradicator, all of them are meh, the Vanquisher I wish they would just dream up a way for it to be better. Maybe, I dunno, more ap, more shots, it needs a higher strength for sure.
I'm sure I'm missing some guard stuff, but that is a pretty good list right there.
How could they fix them right there ? Actually put a bit of effort into it really. I'm not about to hold my breath.
Necron Warriors were scary around 3rd or 4th I think, then they weren't in 5th, then they became insane in 6th, then got under control but still strong in 7th. They got removed and replaced with Wawwiows that are a complete joke in 8th, needing hundreds of shots instead of a few dozen to pop a Land Raider, much stronger against MEQ and Fire Warriors but worse against GEQ. In 6th/7th they could perform any role except for monster hunting quite well, that made them scary.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.
Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.
They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.
It's like zombies, they are slow and dangerous to get near, but if you can kill them at range they are not that scary unless there is an absolute horde of them. If you don't have the tools for killing Terminators and they are kitted to take care of your army, they are scary. But because of their high pts cost there are very few matchups where they win. I still think they are a little scary, like zombies, just not very much. You can either make the Terminators more numerable like facing a zombie horde, or you can give them some sort of improved ability like letting zombies run. In 7th they were an absolute joke since it ended in dead or misplaced units so often.
Stormonu wrote: Working from hearsay, but it sounds like Assault marines don’t work like they used to. The lack of melee attacks and hammer of wrath (moved to a stratagem) means they can’t catapult into melee like they used to, and are better suited to dropping near opponents or on unprotected objectives and striking at range.
Assault Marines were useless in 6th and 7th and I don't think they got Hammer of Wrath until one of those two editions. They were grudgingly used in Gladius Detachments to get hundreds of free pts, but they were awful on their own. I don't know how terrible WS Assault Marines are, it'd be nice to see them get some table time for reasons other than free Razorbacks.
Regardings guard: besides all the comments so far (which I aggree with) it seems to me that a number of vehicle choices that had their niche between Leman Russ Tanks and Baneblades have become quite bad due to the LR becoming better and the Baneblade becoming a bit cheaper.
Malcador Battletanks/Annhilators have less firepower than their Leman Russ counterparts for increased cost and cannot even fire their turret weapons without penalty
Malcador Infernus costs more than 3 Hellhounds (Artemia or normal pattern) and can not take trake guards
Macharius Tanks and Valdor Tank Hunter: not much cheaper than a fitting Baneblade variant, while those are tougher, much better in CC and are better armed. Or on the other side of the spectrum: as expensive as two fully armed Leman Russ Tank commanders which have more wounds and firepower and a more useful HQ instead of LoW Slot
Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter and Thunderer Siege Tank: outperformed drastically by similar costed Leman Russ variants
All of them have interesting models (in my opinion at least) but from a competetive point of view only would have a place if they would either be significantly cheaper than their bigger competetor or tougher/shootier than their weight in Leman Russes. Or in a completely different direction: instead of always pushing for more fire power the Malcador, Macharius and Tank Hunters could become harder to kill than their counterparts giving them a second lease on live
Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, Falcons and Vypers to name a few are all suffering the issue of not being good enough to fill their intended role in the Eldar codex.
Some aspects are too niche, while the role of MBT is taken up by the Wave Serpent over the Falcon. War Walkers also do what the Vyper does for 4" less movement and come with a 5+ invul.
Chaos Lords. They were an auto-include when they turned Cult units into troops and Daemon Princes cost 350+ points. Now they aren't even blessed by Nurgle anymore in the DG Codex. They're okay with jump pack or bike, but Daemon Princes are still better.
Maybe Rhinos. They're okay for their durability, but transports aren't really necessary anymore, you're usually fast enough on foot. I see me using these pretty rarely even though they feel like tanks now unlike in 6/7 th edition.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The real best example is Ogryns. They weren't even that good at their designated role, and Bullgryns pushed them out even further.
Ogryns, as I mentioned elsewhere, have been pretty awful since 3rd edition. In editions even older than that, they may have had some uses. 2E ogryns could shoot their ripper guns to 6" (IIRC) with automatic hits, or engage in stupid but fun tactics like a unit disembarking from a speeding Chimera after it had taken its max speed 24" move (you took 1 unavoidable wound from doing so, but Ogryns had 3 each) and getting in your face with el viejo uno-dos of shotguns and ultraviolence.
Ratlings, likewise, have pretty much always been awful, due to sniper rifles never being that impressive. Some editions gave the unit some survivability tricks such as boosts to cover saves or their "Shoot Sharp and Scarper!" special withdrawal move, but the problem with damage output remained. The game designers always just lacked the courage to do something meaningful with Ratlings or to remove the unit entirely.
Pyroalchi wrote: Regardings guard: besides all the comments so far (which I aggree with) it seems to me that a number of vehicle choices that had their niche between Leman Russ Tanks and Baneblades have become quite bad due to the LR becoming better and the Baneblade becoming a bit cheaper.
Oh, that just reminded me of another one. Stormlord vs. Gorgon. The latter always had worse weapons, smaller transport capacity and less advantageous special rules, yet cost about the same.
I feel like a lot of Aeldari units have fallen to the wayside over the editions. GW seems to always manage to overboost a single unit or two in an Aeldari codex while keeping a lot of the other stuff slightly average to below average.
Pretty much all vehicles really. They're meant to be somewhat mobile heavy firepower compared to people holding cannons but for some reason absolutely nobody worked out a stable firing platform...
Also Banshees, Scorpions, Windriders and Seer Councils.
HoundsofDemos wrote: For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.
They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.
I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.
Like assault marines these things have new life with the supplements.
So people have to pay extra for them to stop sucking?
Actually most Speeders are still bad outside Ultramarines and Iron Hands.
Assault Squads still have no purpose though and no supplement is going to help them, simply because Vanguard exist.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, Falcons and Vypers to name a few are all suffering the issue of not being good enough to fill their intended role in the Eldar codex.
Some aspects are too niche, while the role of MBT is taken up by the Wave Serpent over the Falcon. War Walkers also do what the Vyper does for 4" less movement and come with a 5+ invul.
To lose something one has to have something.
Banshees - supposedly elite killers, but never could kill them due to low S. At one point canceled FNP though.
Scorpions - you'd think are horde killers, yet Exarch carries a massive powerclaw. And they do mortal wounds. Huh.
Spiders - before, could kill anything, because S6 could kill almost anything. Now can't kill anything.
Falcons - was an elite transport with Holofields, almost unkillable. Now what is it?
Vypers - went from hitting on 4+, to... moving and hitting on 4+. Full circle!
Vankraken wrote: In general its safe to say that with the dramatic reduction of game rule complexity caused a lot of units to lose the mechanics and function that gave them some meaningful purpose (regardless of if they where viable or not).
What's your comparison point? 8th, when you factor everything in (traits, stratagems, etc) is ridiculously complex, but with very little payoff for that complexity, as most it is annoying math quirks (rerolls, +/- bonuses) that do nothing but slow down the game with dice rolls (of which there are far too many to start with, before adding rerolls), and smooth out the math to predictable curve that you could largely replace with a look-up table.
Primarily I play marines and my 6 predators just don't seem to be tha useful at the moment. Anything they can do something else seems to do it better and/or cheaper...
For a fast tank they don't seem to be that fast, nor that accurate. Granted 5e BA was a notable period where Predators were fast, and accurate, and blow up as soon as anything got a shot on the side armour but those days are long gone.
Vindicators are just almost as fast and tougher. Okay that Demolisher Cannon is much shorter range than any armourment on the Predator, but for 2 quad Las Predators you can almost get 3 Vindicators...
Thanks to the Doctorine boost form UM and IH Landspeeders may have a welcome boost, but can easily get a bit pricy for such a flimsy platform and what about other chapters...
Rhino's... Oh to the days when you could shoot a couple of guys out the top. Made the good olde workhorse a bit more interesting.
What's nice is the price drop and bolter discipline has made the Codex:SM Tactial marine useful.
Stormonu wrote: Working from hearsay, but it sounds like Assault marines don’t work like they used to. The lack of melee attacks and hammer of wrath (moved to a stratagem) means they can’t catapult into melee like they used to, and are better suited to dropping near opponents or on unprotected objectives and striking at range.
Lack of attacks has been mitigated by the new rules: they now get 3 attacks on the charge/charge recieved.
Hammer of wrath as a strat in also just cheap enough, along with jump packs being just cheap enough to be a viable choice. You aren't going to be charging every turn with them to begin with, and they still make great counter-assault/defensive units(when an enemy melee unit is threatening your unit defending an objective, you jump the assault marines over the defenders, charge, and hammer). You only really need to dedicate 2 CP for hammer of wrath; I'd rather not pay the points for it when it os so situational.
Falcon: It hasn't had enough firepower to be a credible 'tank' since 4th at least, and the move to twin linked = double shots means it's just a worse Wave Serpent at this point.
It lost its role as a halfway compromise between the fast but fragile Eldar skimmers and the slow but tough imperial tracked tanks in 6th with the culling of the Tau vehicle upgrades list and the loss of the "counts as fast for the purpose of shooting" multi-tracker.
Crisis suits.
Loss of JSJ, minimum unit size of 3 suits meaning you can't even take a suicide melta suit as 3 of them is way too expensive for a suicide unit and being flat out worse in every way than just taking a commander who can pack more guns and has the survivability granted by being a character.
For my space marines:
Land Speeders - their rules just don’t support what they were designed for, it is weird that iron hands have better land speeders than white scars or dark angels.
Dreadnoughts - walkers as whole have no real special purpose over just a normal vehicle, they need something to distinguish between walkers and normal vehicles. While some walkers are good still they just don’t have a place other than fluff in most lists now.
Land Raiders - haven’t seen one fielded in person in years, they are very expensive (points and $) with many people switching to primaris they don’t see use as a transport often and they are out gunned by repulsors and repulsor executioners.
For my nids:
The dimacheron has no real purpose, it’s rules make it pretty out of place in most lists but it is such a cool model.
Tyranocites have really no purpose in most lists now.
TheAvengingKnee wrote: ...Dreadnoughts - walkers as whole have no real special purpose over just a normal vehicle, they need something to distinguish between walkers and normal vehicles. While some walkers are good still they just don’t have a place other than fluff in most lists now...
Melee attacks. In theory. Not usually in practice, but in theory.
TheAvengingKnee wrote: ...Dreadnoughts - walkers as whole have no real special purpose over just a normal vehicle, they need something to distinguish between walkers and normal vehicles. While some walkers are good still they just don’t have a place other than fluff in most lists now...
Melee attacks. In theory. Not usually in practice, but in theory.
I think this was their original purpose (and it's supported in the fluff). Dreads stomping up the field with some infantry, usually anchoring one of their flanks, assault cannon blazing away to provide some covering fire, close combat weapon ready to mulch some baddies should they get too close.
Now they're mostly useful as long range weapon batteries.
Gotta disagree with the guy who said chosen are trash in the first page. They're great. They can now have 4 attacks on the charge, a sergeant with potentially 5 attacks, or 4 attacks with a weapon and one with chainsword. For one point over csm. I've found them really strong with 5 plasma, all with chainswords. Pop them in a rhino/LR first turn, get out and melt stuff with your silly amount of special weapons, inevitably lose all the bolter dudes, (but who cares) then charge in and clear infantry with all that S4 goodness.
Prior editions were either mobile weapon platform & melee support for infantry or long-range fire support. They still do both of these reasonably well, but with an added fire-support defensive role.
Stick a twin las and storm bolter fist next to some Devs on a home-field objective and blast 2 lascannon shots as fire support that can then also run in and tie up melee infantry or overrunning tanks aimed at the devs.
I just wish the missile launcher was a snowflake typhoon/cyclone.
For lost roles: I nominate the sentinel variants
Both are meant as fast outrider/vanguard units but both also suffer move-and-fire penalties for their weapons. And the sentinels pay way to much for the chainsaw, which only grants them some AP (2 pts is too much when evey army has some ability to treat AP -1 as AP 0, even a regiment in the same codex). A chainsword bonus attack or any other change in statline would be of more value to the points.
On a more general note I think across the factions anything that's just that box to move things have lost its niche as cheap transports are no longer a thing…
Rhinos, Trukks, Chimeras all seem to be fall into this bracket
As opposed to things like Wave Serpents, Razorbacks and Repulsors which have more than a token amount of firepower.
Heavy Assault Tanks (Land Raider, Repulsor): This was always destined to be a problem and it particularly hurts since the repulsor never had a chance to shine without this problem. These tanks spend too many points for thier heavy tank role, have too little transport for their point cost in the transport role, and already suffer the problem in that a single model with a high point cost and no LOS safety is a huge risk in the 8th ed battlefield.
Marine Melee Common Infantry: Assault Marines, Reivers, tactical marines w/chainswords. All have the same problem - 8th ed largely expects a minimum of -1AP to handle all the armor saves, but these weapons use a base 0 AP and have a pitful few attacks for their point cost.
Tactical Marines: Primaris marines have the survivability to make their point cost back, Devastators can dish out enough damage to mitigate the 1W problem, AM infantry is hell a lot of more points efficient. Tatical marines have ... a single special weapon. GW is in a bind here, they can't make them cheap enough and all the options for making them better is already being used by another model.
Terminators: 8th ed has a lot of -AP to make up for the armor values in other models, but this puts Terminators in a weird place. They could barely hold on to the 'survivable' angle before Primaris models came on the scene. Now you are paying more points for a job that could be better handled by Primaris marines.
Eldar Infantry: Whoever thought that a half-dozen versions of the standard infantry statline was a good idea should have been shot. Putting it into a faction in which most models are expensive point wise and of low survivability is just terrible. One model line will always outdate the others.
Tyranid Warriors: Its a model that GW can't dare buff too much because they are elite mid-price models in a faction that's supposed to be all hordes backed by super-elite monsters. They are the tatical marines of tyranids
Necron Warriors:
When I started the army (4th), they were terrifying. No need for special weapons or fancy stuff, on basic troop gun can trash tanks. Any Gauss weapon that rolled a wound roll of 6 did one unsalable damage, regardless of toughness.
Basically they did a mortal wound to anything on a 6+ to wound. Why won't they give us that back!?
Monolith:
I'm not too sure what to say here...I know what it should be capable of *looks at 3rd ed codex*...but..*looks at 8th ed codex* ...what did they do to it?!!?! The Monolith has totally lost its purpose as a transport/support/undying tank.
The tervigon was one of the best units in the game in 6th (I think it was 6th). In an edition where only troops scored, they were a troop choice if taken with an MSU+ unit of termagants, spawned more (free) termagants as the game went on, offered synapse, psychic powers, could kill a land raider in combat, were tough to kill and were only about 160 points IIRC. The only reason people didn't take 3 of them was all of the spawned gaunts would slow the game down too much, and you already needed upwards of 100 painted termagants to field two tervigons given all of the models you'd spawn. Oh, they also shot a large blast weapon
Now they're expensive, easier to kill, offensively weak and you have to pay for new units of gaunts you spawn. They're not OP, which is good, but you aren't likely to see them any more. Also, hordes are in now, so enemies are more prepared to deal with massed bodies than back then when a horde was a niche build
I have a hard time justifying Assault Marines when you can either take Vanguard who can also fly over and have a better chance to kill characters, or bikes for a hard hitting quick moving assault unit.
Heck, you can boost those bikes turn one and get a 3++, and then be In position to unleash bolters/plasma guns turn 2 onwards.
A 10man Assault Squad is 180 pts for 3 plasma pistols and an axe on the sergeant. Total of 10 wounds.
a 9 man bike squad (8 bikes and an attack bike) is 254, gets 2 plasma guns, a combi-plas, a heavy bolter, and 9 TL Bolters. Is a total of 20 wounds.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Sly Marbo. Fails at being an HQ, fails at being anti-infantry, fails at character assassinating.
I actually love him in 8th, if i had guard i would play him every game lol.
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AnomanderRake wrote: Falcon: It hasn't had enough firepower to be a credible 'tank' since 4th at least, and the move to twin linked = double shots means it's just a worse Wave Serpent at this point.
As someone with more of them than WS's... yeah they are so bad.
HoundsofDemos wrote: For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.
They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.
I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.
Like assault marines these things have new life with the supplements.
So people have to pay extra for them to stop sucking?
Actually most Speeders are still bad outside Ultramarines and Iron Hands.
Assault Squads still have no purpose though and no supplement is going to help them, simply because Vanguard exist.
Actually the point drops for land speeders were part of the equation. They're a fair bit cheaper now on top of other nifty benefits.
VV are elite; AM are fast, so if that distinction is important there is still a place for them even if it's only for the budget conscious 10 to 20 point savings.
HoundsofDemos wrote: For me the biggest unit I struggle to justify these days in most landspeeders. They used to be incredibly fast and packing a ton of fire power. MM and Flamer combos could threaten almost anything, and the ML or Assault Cannon variant were also mobile and hit hard. Combine that with the option to deep strike or come in screaming from reserves meant they offered a ton of flexibility.
They were a staple in my list from 5th to 7th and were on of the most best units in the marine codex. The change to vehicles not being able to move and shoot with out a penalty along with them being fairly fragile means they usually sit on my shelf.
I know there are strats and traits that can improve them but GW doubling down on that mechanic is something I really dislike. A unit should be able to stand on it's own and have a purpose, it shouldn't need two or three levels of combo hammer to be good.
Like assault marines these things have new life with the supplements.
So people have to pay extra for them to stop sucking?
Actually most Speeders are still bad outside Ultramarines and Iron Hands.
Assault Squads still have no purpose though and no supplement is going to help them, simply because Vanguard exist.
Actually the point drops for land speeders were part of the equation. They're a fair bit cheaper now on top of other nifty benefits.
VV are elite; AM are fast, so if that distinction is important there is still a place for them even if it's only for the budget conscious 10 to 20 point savings.
The way the FOC works, Elite vs Fast Attack is not enough a distinction, and if you REALLY wanted a Jump unit you'd just spend the few extra points on Vanguard. The price difference really makes it as simple as that.
Tactical Marines: Primaris marines have the survivability to make their point cost back, Devastators can dish out enough damage to mitigate the 1W problem, AM infantry is hell a lot of more points efficient. Tatical marines have ... a single special weapon. GW is in a bind here, they can't make them cheap enough and all the options for making them better is already being used by another model.
Tac Marines remain the most offensively capable Troops unit. And don't forget the Combi-Weapon! The drop in price for Grav Cannons is also a boon.
VV as just AM with +1A really are not competing with AM.
A) They take up different FOC slots
B) The VV often have more competion for the Elites slot, even though their are more of them available.
C) There is basically no difference between the 2 other than # of attacks(so not sure where Crazyterran was getting the character assassination bit other than pumping points into different weapons, which further chages the 2 units)
I cannot quite agree with the bikers comparison either: 74 points can get you another unit in many cases, so paying for an entire separate unit(like 5 scouts with 4 snipers and a heavy bolter), to gain more wounds and shooting than the assault squad(who has a different role anyways)...
Assault Marines and VVs both have jump packs, so can jump over chaff to get at characters. However, VVs actually carry weapons that will make the characters worry.
The bikes and AM have the same role, as they both are there to harass units and charge and clear up chaff. Bikes have better T, an extra wound, move faster and can also contribute at range. They also have a better strategem, and mesh better with the Tactical Doctrine, which is as far as most marine armies will want to go.
An extra Scout squad with sniper rifles is a pretty nice waste of points I guess, but you could do it.
Snake Tortoise wrote: The tervigon was one of the best units in the game in 6th (I think it was 6th). In an edition where only troops scored, they were a troop choice if taken with an MSU+ unit of termagants, spawned more (free) termagants as the game went on, offered synapse, psychic powers, could kill a land raider in combat, were tough to kill and were only about 160 points IIRC. The only reason people didn't take 3 of them was all of the spawned gaunts would slow the game down too much, and you already needed upwards of 100 painted termagants to field two tervigons given all of the models you'd spawn. Oh, they also shot a large blast weapon
Now they're expensive, easier to kill, offensively weak and you have to pay for new units of gaunts you spawn. They're not OP, which is good, but you aren't likely to see them any more. Also, hordes are in now, so enemies are more prepared to deal with massed bodies than back then when a horde was a niche build
That was 5th. And yeah, when first introduced they were very strong.
People absolutely did take more than 2 of them. At the time armies were limited to the standard force org chart, however tervigons had a rule where you could take one in a Troop slot instead of HQ for each unit of termagants you had in your army. Hence the short lived reign of the 5 tervigon gaunt spam list. GW nerfed the crap out of them in 6th edition, and the nerfs followed through to 8th.
These days they're an expensive monster with almost no offensive power. For ranged weapons they're just equipped with the tyranid equivalent of a heavy bolter, and their melee ability is poor.
Their only purpose is to produce basic termagants. However producing termagants costs points, unless you're replacing casualties in an existing unit.
Given that a tervigon simply doesn't Do anything useful itself, you're better off just spending all of its points on more termagants. That will give you far more than it was ever likely to produce over the course of a game.
Crazyterran wrote: Assault Marines and VVs both have jump packs, so can jump over chaff to get at characters. However, VVs actually carry weapons that will make the characters worry.
The bikes and AM have the same role, as they both are there to harass units and charge and clear up chaff. Bikes have better T, an extra wound, move faster and can also contribute at range. They also have a better strategem, and mesh better with the Tactical Doctrine, which is as far as most marine armies will want to go.
An extra Scout squad with sniper rifles is a pretty nice waste of points I guess, but you could do it.
Now, I know this is old school, but what about if they set it up where Assault Marines could be troop choices if you took a Jump HQ? I think that would be very fun in the least and would give a rather middling unit a huge bonus that may make it viable
BaconCatBug wrote: Agreed, Assault Squads should be Troop choices, just flat out.
Would be even better if they had access to bolters.
That would make them amazing mobile objective takers but that ship has long sailed since the kit is done. If anything just giving them access to plasma and melta could make a huge difference ala Blood angels.
Maybe if we are lucky we can get some Suppressor style unit with bolt rifles?
BaconCatBug wrote: Agreed, Assault Squads should be Troop choices, just flat out.
Would be even better if they had access to bolters.
That would make them amazing mobile objective takers but that ship has long sailed since the kit is done. If anything just giving them access to plasma and melta could make a huge difference ala Blood angels.
Maybe if we are lucky we can get some Suppressor style unit with bolt rifles?
I again allways wondered why it is okay for 5 raptors to have 3 plasma guns but not to have bloody bolters.
Like wtf? You are willing to carry these highly complex guns that suffer from dangerous instability if not handled propperly but a bolter with belt feeding is too mundane for you?
Every FA option in the Ork codex. Interestingly some of these units have never had a purpose, because they are new.
Stormboyz - slower, more expensive, less killy Boyz that die for the privilege of goin fasta. Why aren't you using Da Jump?
Warbikes - too expensive for their damage output and durability, lost key rules from 7th-8th transition, Da Jump makes them useless compared to Boyz. They can't harass and there are better units to get stuck in turn 1.
Nob Bikes - way too expensive for their damage output and durability, superseded in almost every way by Warbikes that are themselves a poor unit as above.
Kustom Boosta Blasta - not quite anti-infantry, not quite anti-elite, not quite anti-vehile, not quite useful.
Shokkjump Dragsta - hits the most sour spot of doing too little damage and having too little durability to be useful. Has a melee weapon for some insane reason.
Boomdakka Snazzwagon - worse at clearing infantry than the Kustom Boosta Blasta, Stole the rule from Warbikes.
Megatrakk Scrapjet - the most competitive buggy still has the problem of not knowing whether it wants to shoot things, get stuck in melee, or be very average at both. It still dies to a wet fart.
Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy - this is my favourite because it's so stupidly bad. This thing costs almost as much as a Disco Lord or, in Ork terms, a Battlewagon. It has 9 T6 wounds, a 4+ save and no character protection. The Battlewagon (for comparison) has 16 T8 wounds, a 4+ save and it can transport units for the same points. It's not even a HQ to fill slots. I genuinely believe that the person responsible for points costing and writing rules for this unit was drunk. They must have been. It's awful at everything, which is a shame because the idea and the model is phenomenal.
Deffkoptas - They can fly. Literally their only use is to grab objectives but at 30pts without weapons they are as expensive as 10 Grots that can be jumped and protect key units. Losing options from Index has made them utterly redundant.
None FA honourable mentions from the Ork dex -
Trukk - what sane Ork player is taking a Trukk when you can jump a group of 30 Boyz hidden outside of LOS and fill a HQ slot for about the same points? The Trukk is now a Tankbusta tax.
Burna Boyz - a joke. Worse than Boyz in every way. More expensive. Work that one out. Also have a literal "Burna" that is the worst "burner" in the game. I want to punch GW d3 times in the nuts for this travesty
Mek Gunz - Bubblechucka & KMK - many of you probably don't realise that there are Mek Gunz other than the Smasha. There are - one forces you to play slower for a hefty points cost and the other is a worse Smasha gun in all but number of shots, but costs a ton more.
Gunwagon - the best thing about this vehicle is that it can explode on a 4+.
Killa Kans - worst LD for cost in the game surely? Serves no purpose - can't specialise to be good at melee or ranged attacks.
Stompa - the Stompa is so bad it makes the Wraithknight look like a pro choice.
Mek Boy Workshop - only 80 pts to make my units worse?! Let's take 3!
Snake Tortoise wrote: The tervigon was one of the best units in the game in 6th (I think it was 6th). In an edition where only troops scored, they were a troop choice if taken with an MSU+ unit of termagants, spawned more (free) termagants as the game went on, offered synapse, psychic powers, could kill a land raider in combat, were tough to kill and were only about 160 points IIRC. The only reason people didn't take 3 of them was all of the spawned gaunts would slow the game down too much, and you already needed upwards of 100 painted termagants to field two tervigons given all of the models you'd spawn. Oh, they also shot a large blast weapon
Now they're expensive, easier to kill, offensively weak and you have to pay for new units of gaunts you spawn. They're not OP, which is good, but you aren't likely to see them any more. Also, hordes are in now, so enemies are more prepared to deal with massed bodies than back then when a horde was a niche build
My experience has been the reverse. They were ineffective in 6th/7th, overpriced and weren’t very dangerous in CC. I love them in 8E.
It lost its role as a halfway compromise between the fast but fragile Eldar skimmers and the slow but tough imperial tracked tanks in 6th with the culling of the Tau vehicle upgrades list and the loss of the "counts as fast for the purpose of shooting" multi-tracker.
Crisis suits.
Loss of JSJ, minimum unit size of 3 suits meaning you can't even take a suicide melta suit as 3 of them is way too expensive for a suicide unit and being flat out worse in every way than just taking a commander who can pack more guns and has the survivability granted by being a character.
Was going to write this exact same thing but you beat me to it. Hammerhead was my favourite Tau unit and when the daft 6th edition codex made it unplayable (together with rules changes which made Railgun suck), I essentially gave up Tau altogether.
Suits were fun, they existed to play clever and flexible style of game where you tailored your shooting and maneuvering around what opponent had and did. In newer editions they have become pure Dakka spam unit with no flair.
Nearly all the Ork forgeworld units in 7th were amazing, but Grot Tanks, Grot Mega Tank and the Deff Dread are nowhere near as good now. I don't know if other forgeworld units across other factions are worse in 8th than they were in 7th.
Dandelion wrote: Kroot. A melee unit that lost its melee capability. Not to mention all the special rules they've lost over time.
IMO Kroot were never really a melee unit - they had decent melee ability but they were mostly shooty. But agreed that they were made irrelevant with their melee ability becoming WORSE than Fire Warriors, and with nothing to compensate in other respects - they just became a totally pointless unit which was left in Codex for historical reasons I suppose. "Hey, once Tau players used these guys before we spammed the game with MegaSuits!"
Dandelion wrote: Kroot. A melee unit that lost its melee capability. Not to mention all the special rules they've lost over time.
IMO Kroot were never really a melee unit - they had decent melee ability but they were mostly shooty. But agreed that they were made irrelevant with their melee ability becoming WORSE than Fire Warriors, and with nothing to compensate in other respects - they just became a totally pointless unit which was left in Codex for historical reasons I suppose. "Hey, once Tau players used these guys before we spammed the game with MegaSuits!"
I think that when Vetock happened and the Riptide Frenzy fell on us, the playerbase could have reacted in many ways. After X (with X being big, really big) riptides were bought, the tau became big robots guys, later we had additional big robots models, FW also followed suit, and faster that is. And the fate of the auxiliaries was sealed.
Tactical Marines: Primaris marines have the survivability to make their point cost back, Devastators can dish out enough damage to mitigate the 1W problem, AM infantry is hell a lot of more points efficient. Tatical marines have ... a single special weapon. GW is in a bind here, they can't make them cheap enough and all the options for making them better is already being used by another model.
Tac Marines remain the most offensively capable Troops unit. And don't forget the Combi-Weapon! The drop in price for Grav Cannons is also a boon.
That only matters for units that can take a lot of Grav Cannons.
A) They take up different FOC slots
B) The VV often have more competion for the Elites slot, even though their are more of them available.
C) There is basically no difference between the 2 other than # of attacks(so not sure where Crazyterran was getting the character assassination bit other than pumping points into different weapons, which further chages the 2 units)
I cannot quite agree with the bikers comparison either: 74 points can get you another unit in many cases, so paying for an entire separate unit(like 5 scouts with 4 snipers and a heavy bolter), to gain more wounds and shooting than the assault squad(who has a different role anyways)...
Sorry but the FOC slots don't matter as much. The price difference is so negligible you handicap yourself buying Assault Squads.
Crazyterran wrote: Assault Marines and VVs both have jump packs, so can jump over chaff to get at characters. However, VVs actually carry weapons that will make the characters worry.
The bikes and AM have the same role, as they both are there to harass units and charge and clear up chaff. Bikes have better T, an extra wound, move faster and can also contribute at range. They also have a better strategem, and mesh better with the Tactical Doctrine, which is as far as most marine armies will want to go.
An extra Scout squad with sniper rifles is a pretty nice waste of points I guess, but you could do it.
Now, I know this is old school, but what about if they set it up where Assault Marines could be troop choices if you took a Jump HQ? I think that would be very fun in the least and would give a rather middling unit a huge bonus that may make it viable
Absolutely. Jump Troops would be a great unit for fast, mobile objective grabbers. Would make sense for them to still be 16ppm then!
Crazyterran wrote: Assault Marines and VVs both have jump packs, so can jump over chaff to get at characters. However, VVs actually carry weapons that will make the characters worry.
The bikes and AM have the same role, as they both are there to harass units and charge and clear up chaff. Bikes have better T, an extra wound, move faster and can also contribute at range. They also have a better strategem, and mesh better with the Tactical Doctrine, which is as far as most marine armies will want to go.
An extra Scout squad with sniper rifles is a pretty nice waste of points I guess, but you could do it.
Now, I know this is old school, but what about if they set it up where Assault Marines could be troop choices if you took a Jump HQ? I think that would be very fun in the least and would give a rather middling unit a huge bonus that may make it viable
Absolutely. Jump Troops would be a great unit for fast, mobile objective grabbers. Would make sense for them to still be 16ppm then!
Yeah that was a pipedream the moment we lost Bikers as a troop choice.
Imagine Troop Assault Marines and giving them access to JUST enough of the Special Pistols (Plasma, Inferno, Flamer) they could specialize into killing particular targets.
It lost its role as a halfway compromise between the fast but fragile Eldar skimmers and the slow but tough imperial tracked tanks in 6th with the culling of the Tau vehicle upgrades list and the loss of the "counts as fast for the purpose of shooting" multi-tracker.
Crisis suits.
Loss of JSJ, minimum unit size of 3 suits meaning you can't even take a suicide melta suit as 3 of them is way too expensive for a suicide unit and being flat out worse in every way than just taking a commander who can pack more guns and has the survivability granted by being a character.
Was going to write this exact same thing but you beat me to it. Hammerhead was my favourite Tau unit and when the daft 6th edition codex made it unplayable (together with rules changes which made Railgun suck), I essentially gave up Tau altogether.
Suits were fun, they existed to play clever and flexible style of game where you tailored your shooting and maneuvering around what opponent had and did. In newer editions they have become pure Dakka spam unit with no flair.
I've got a box of Tau that basically feel the same way
GW deciding to go full throttle on the Gundam thing didn't help.
Not a unit, but a profile: heat lances. In 7th, a Melta Lance was a really cool concept -- S6 melta, but vehicles always had a max of AV12 so you had a decent chance of cracking the armor. Now in 7th, you've still got S6... but no help with wounding and an AP -5 that's worth nothing over AP -4 99% of the time. I don't think there's another weapon profile as niche and worthless as this one (and IIRC, heat lances are more expensive than, say, haywire blasters)
Burna boyz - a unit that used to excel at both killing chaff at flamer range or marines in close combat fails to do either today. GW erred on the safe side with their 1d3 burnas, making them utterly useless for that role. Meanwhile, the close combat profile went from AP 3 (ignore marine armor) to AP-2, which means pretty much bouncing of 3+ armor instead of shredding it.
Warbikers - they used to be pretty durable due to their exhaust cloud, which got taken away and not replaced in a meaningful way (the stratagem is useless). Meanwhile, every other bike unit in the game got some sort of exhaust cloud...
Powerklaw - their role in any ork army was being the "ork lascannon". The lascannon got d6 damage, the PK got -1 to hit and d3 damage. Instead of being a threat to anything in the game they went to being a minor damage increase that pretty much everyone can ignore. This also neutered trukk boyz, nobz, MANz and biker nobz' offensive power. A unit of 10 PK nobz just barely takes down a LRBT, where they could wreck an entire parking lot in previous editions.
The only PKs that still do their job are the relic klaws with flat D3 and no -1 to hit.
Ork flanking units (kommandoz, koptas, buggies) - all those used to be the go-to units you used to tie up shooting units and threaten a vehicle, with no guarantee of actually destroying it. With twin rokkits being expensive as sin and vehicles simply ignoring one or two rokkit hits, the threat is gone, and since pretty much everything can jump out of combat and shoot through fly or stratagems and 8th editions heavy weapon rules, these ladz are out of a job. Instead we throw 210+ points of boyz into the tellyporta to do that job.
Ork flanking units (kommandoz, koptas, buggies) - all those used to be the go-to units you used to tie up shooting units and threaten a vehicle, with no guarantee of actually destroying it. With twin rokkits being expensive as sin and vehicles simply ignoring one or two rokkit hits, the threat is gone, and since pretty much everything can jump out of combat and shoot through fly or stratagems and 8th editions heavy weapon rules, these ladz are out of a job. Instead we throw 210+ points of boyz into the tellyporta to do that job.
TBF tellyporta and da jump has put them out of a job aswell.
Because why bother paying for that mobility when you can get more mobility for cheaper.
Jidmah wrote: How so? Trukk boyz and BW boyz are dead this edition. It's 30 or gretchin.
Just because they don't work in these fashion any more does not make boyz not cheap.
210 points (+nob gear) for a troops units is NOT cheap. That's custodes territory.
There is as much reason to take less than 30 boyz as there is to take a unit of devastators without heavy weapons.
except you get how many models in that squad?
and how many custodes would you get for that..
I agree with you that 30 is the only way to go, because the smaller squads just can't take advantage of the mechanics of the army atm.
That is unfortunate, but also to blame on the core mechanics of the army and the game itself.
Jidmah wrote: How so? Trukk boyz and BW boyz are dead this edition. It's 30 or gretchin.
Just because they don't work in these fashion any more does not make boyz not cheap.
210 points (+nob gear) for a troops units is NOT cheap. That's custodes territory.
There is as much reason to take less than 30 boyz as there is to take a unit of devastators without heavy weapons.
except you get how many models in that squad?
and how many custodes would you get for that..
I agree with you that 30 is the only way to go, because the smaller squads just can't take advantage of the mechanics of the army atm. That is unfortunate, but also to blame on the core mechanics of the army and the game itself.
What on earth are you talking about? Expensive is not the same as inefficient. A unit of blightlord terminators is very expensive, but is still an awesome unit that sees play even on top tables.
The whole point is that orks used to have cheap disruption units in the form of koptas, kommandoz and buggies, now we fling units that cost two to four times as many points across the table to do the same job - because they can do way more than we actually need.
In 5th edition, a full squad shooting would kill 3.33 MEQ. That's 46.5pts.
In 8th edition, a full squad shooting does 3.88 wounds, which isn't even 2 dead Intercessors. That's 33pts. In cover, it's 1.94 wounds, not even 1 Intercessor or 16.5pts.
In the meantime, Ork Boyz went to 7pts (vs 6pts in 5th edition).
All in all, Shoota Boyz' offensive output against Marines was cut by 33-66%. They used to be good all-rounders, now they're just trash meant to look pretty (sort of...) in a display case.
Welcome to a thread without a particular agenda. Seriously, I’m not up to owt, or trying to persuade people to my point of view on a given unit.
What I’m looking for here are voices of longer term experience. Not because snootiness or elitism etc. Rather, I want to explore units once more or less terrors of the field which have lost their sheen.
Basic example? Terminators. In 2nd ed, they were terrifying. A ridiculous save (3+ on 2D6), decent stats, decent firepower, then handy CCW.
Since then? They’ve just fulfilled the role of terror troops that well. Until they got their 5+ invulnerable, they were utter bobbins thanks to a prevalence of Plasma. Even with it, they weren’t quite the full shilling. Survivable, sure. They still took some killing. But their damage output rarely, properly justified their inclusion.
They should be a horror situation for your opponent. Firepower or attacks to carve through most opponents. Something one can reliably use to shore up a flank, or shatter a centre.
Now how to fix them? Possibly another thread. Certainly I don’t know enough about modern 40k to say what they need. But for now, sound off the units you used to have a firm role for, that over various rules changes have lost their way.
Terminators really aren't a good example because only the particular Chaos ones were any good.
I guess you missed 5th ed where everyone and their mum took TH/SS Termies...
Yep 4th edition DA book Belial Libby 3-4 squads of TH/SS good times
CSM obliterators. They used to be the go to swiss army knife heavy slot with long range lascannons, autocannons, missile luncher, midrange plasma cannons but now they are just deepstrike short range 24" guns random str random ap. They are also over costed now from the old 75ppm to 115ppm.
Forge and Mauler fiends have been replaced by war dogs moirax. The moirax has better ws, bs, and move but lack the 5++ combat invul.
They still have a role, sure. But back in 6th/7th, they were a great toolbox but had to be exposed to do their job.
In addition to removing a ton of GEQ when they came in, if they got close, they could either drop a Plasma Grenade on light infantry (and AP4 with TLOS and a lot of mobility often meant no save at all), or toss Haywire at something like a Land Raider. They did very little to Marines or better, very little to anything lighter than AV14 (comparatively), and very little at range, where they were relatively safe. But a great toolbox when you exposed them.
Now they do a couple MW, maybe, if they move over a high-modelcount unit. And they put out a good amount of anti-GEQ firepower (and do that from the full 24" away). But they just aren't the scalpel they were.
Them losing their Doctrina Imperatives was a kick in the nuts. Onagers losing their squadron capability was just as bad. Ruststalkers losing their grenades was ridiculous.
Assaulty Orks in general have lost almost all of their movement options in 8th edition in favor of just two gimmicks: Da Jump and Tellyporta.
Footsloggers are too slow and vulnerable today with the greatly expanded number of shots coming their way and how pitiful the line of sight terrain rules have made cover. Every army now has access to 8, 12, or 20-shot gatling cannons that obliterate flootsloggers with bad armor who can no longer hide behind area terrain or benefit substantially from being inside it. So footslogging isn't a practical option, even with grot shields, kustom force fields, and FNP saves to buff them up.
This isn't entirely unrealistic, but the modern solution to this problem--APCs--doesn't work either, because with the 8th edition wound table anti-infantry guns can take out light transports like Trukks, and medium-heavy vehicles like Battlewagons get shredded by the preponderance of anti-tank weapons that everyone takes to deal with Knights. Also, passengers can't jump out and charge after the transport moved, so that tactic died too.
Even if this did work, small mobs of Orks lack hitting power in 8th edition compared to all prior editions. They get fewer attacks, each attack isn't as good against MEQ, and the Nob's superior weapons (Big Choppa or Powerklaw) don't make much of a difference anymore. They can also no longer threaten vehicles like they used to be able to due to the greatly increased durabilty of vehicles against assault infantry armed with grenades and powerful close combat weapon--reversing the trend of vehicles becoming more vulnerable to them across all prior editions (it's hilarious how your soldier armed with Melta or Tankbusta Bombs can *throw* them at a tank, but not *attach* them to the tank that's two feet in front of him).
This leaves basically one viable close combat infantry strategy for Orks: teleport a huge mob right into the enemy's face using Da Jump or Tellyporta. Little wonder that this is basically all you see from competitive Ork armies besides the shooty stuff.
Them losing their Doctrina Imperatives was a kick in the nuts.
Onagers losing their squadron capability was just as bad.
Ruststalkers losing their grenades was ridiculous.
And let's not forget us losing the Scout Move.
Have Ruststalkers been better in 7th edition? I really like the unit visually and lore wise, but I've never seen them played in 8th edition ever because apparently they just aren't that good.
Stormonu wrote: Working from hearsay, but it sounds like Assault marines don’t work like they used to. The lack of melee attacks and hammer of wrath (moved to a stratagem) means they can’t catapult into melee like they used to, and are better suited to dropping near opponents or on unprotected objectives and striking at range.
Generally speaking, I feel like GW has a problem with the fact they've got specialty roles for armies and then specialty armies based on those specialty roles. The game engine is flexible enough for vanilla marines to have CC specialists and then have Blood Angels be an army of CC specitalists with their Assault Marines being the best Assault Marines. Either the BA option is too good, or everyone else's is bad.
Because you have to have a codex to have a role. RIP.
As someone with 4k Corsairs, this makes me very sad...............
Yes some of the models are "playable", Hornets, Wasps, Warp Hunters, Reavers, Cloud, but its not the same at all. Heck the Bikes are completely different, they used to be like Shiny Spears, elite melee units, now they are heavy weapon bikers... that s HUGE change, i would still be ok with them in index form with 2/3 of the units wasnt gone and the other 1/3 didnt change their gear. Reavers used to be 5mans with 2 specials like SoB, now they are 2 per 10, little things like that.
But you know what the worst part is? They are 8th design already, they were playing 8th in 7th. They already had a detachment system (1 detachment must be a mix of Patrol and Supreme, and up to 3 patrols) they also already had Traits you could pick from that the full detachment had to be to get rules (Titan Breakers, Head takers, Vault breachers, Sky burners, Night hunters, Hate bringers).
You can literally plug and play Corsairs from 7th and they work in 8th without trying. FW coudlnt be bother b.c the person that made them died and everyone else is like "feth i need to do work? I dont like Eldar so feth it i'm not going to"
PS: Corsairs were also very well balanced outside of 2 formations, for our tournaments and local we followed the Adepticon 7th rules, 1 formation only, and 1 unit with D-weapons only (that killed off the "good corsair formation") and no one thought they were OP then, they were very fun, they were on White Scars level if you didnt take the Skyhammer Assault formation with all the free vehicle formation. B.c most of your models were T3, T4, or T5 and some vehicles (i played with 4 vehicles). having 40 guardians with JSJ teleporting around the table is fun for both players, b.c the other player kills them easily and if played well the corsair player has fun too. The biker unit with 3 exarchs was your hard hitting melee unit, but it was nothing compare to smash captain bike deathstar unit.
Because you have to have a codex to have a role. RIP.
As someone with 4k Corsairs, this makes me very sad...............
Yes some of the models are "playable", Hornets, Wasps, Warp Hunters, Reavers, Cloud, but its not the same at all. Heck the Bikes are completely different, they used to be like Shiny Spears, elite melee units, now they are heavy weapon bikers... that s HUGE change, i would still be ok with them in index form with 2/3 of the units wasnt gone and the other 1/3 didnt change their gear. Reavers used to be 5mans with 2 specials like SoB, now they are 2 per 10, little things like that.
But you know what the worst part is? They are 8th design already, they were playing 8th in 7th. They already had a detachment system (1 detachment must be a mix of Patrol and Supreme, and up to 3 patrols) they also already had Traits you could pick from that the full detachment had to be to get rules (Titan Breakers, Head takers, Vault breachers, Sky burners, Night hunters, Hate bringers).
You can literally plug and play Corsairs from 7th and they work in 8th without trying. FW coudlnt be bother b.c the person that made them died and everyone else is like "feth i need to do work? I dont like Eldar so feth it i'm not going to"
PS: Corsairs were also very well balanced outside of 2 formations, for our tournaments and local we followed the Adepticon 7th rules, 1 formation only, and 1 unit with D-weapons only (that killed off the "good corsair formation") and no one thought they were OP then, they were very fun, they were on White Scars level if you didnt take the Skyhammer Assault formation with all the free vehicle formation. B.c most of your models were T3, T4, or T5 and some vehicles (i played with 4 vehicles). having 40 guardians with JSJ teleporting around the table is fun for both players, b.c the other player kills them easily and if played well the corsair player has fun too. The biker unit with 3 exarchs was your hard hitting melee unit, but it was nothing compare to smash captain bike deathstar unit.
Im pretty salty still.....
About the only fw list that is in a worse condition then my r&h, it still amazes me how they killed them off.
Like why?
Because you have to have a codex to have a role. RIP.
As someone with 4k Corsairs, this makes me very sad...............
Yes some of the models are "playable", Hornets, Wasps, Warp Hunters, Reavers, Cloud, but its not the same at all. Heck the Bikes are completely different, they used to be like Shiny Spears, elite melee units, now they are heavy weapon bikers... that s HUGE change, i would still be ok with them in index form with 2/3 of the units wasnt gone and the other 1/3 didnt change their gear. Reavers used to be 5mans with 2 specials like SoB, now they are 2 per 10, little things like that.
But you know what the worst part is? They are 8th design already, they were playing 8th in 7th. They already had a detachment system (1 detachment must be a mix of Patrol and Supreme, and up to 3 patrols) they also already had Traits you could pick from that the full detachment had to be to get rules (Titan Breakers, Head takers, Vault breachers, Sky burners, Night hunters, Hate bringers).
You can literally plug and play Corsairs from 7th and they work in 8th without trying. FW coudlnt be bother b.c the person that made them died and everyone else is like "feth i need to do work? I dont like Eldar so feth it i'm not going to"
PS: Corsairs were also very well balanced outside of 2 formations, for our tournaments and local we followed the Adepticon 7th rules, 1 formation only, and 1 unit with D-weapons only (that killed off the "good corsair formation") and no one thought they were OP then, they were very fun, they were on White Scars level if you didnt take the Skyhammer Assault formation with all the free vehicle formation. B.c most of your models were T3, T4, or T5 and some vehicles (i played with 4 vehicles). having 40 guardians with JSJ teleporting around the table is fun for both players, b.c the other player kills them easily and if played well the corsair player has fun too. The biker unit with 3 exarchs was your hard hitting melee unit, but it was nothing compare to smash captain bike deathstar unit.
Im pretty salty still.....
About the only fw list that is in a worse condition then my r&h, it still amazes me how they killed them off.
Like why?
I'm pretty sure they just dont care about 40k/aos anymore and focusing on 30k/specialist games, and if those models can be used for 40k throw some unbalanced rules at them (for better or for worst).
From the sound of it FW is basically being tasked with specialist games stuff and everything for the main 40k game is being handled by the main studio, has been for a while now.
I don't think its an issue of the FW people not wanting to do things, more that it's been taken out of their hands and the main GW studio just has no interest in supporting those old pre-8E army lists.
Vaktathi wrote: From the sound of it FW is basically being tasked with specialist games stuff and everything for the main 40k game is being handled by the main studio, has been for a while now.
I don't think its an issue of the FW people not wanting to do things, more that it's been taken out of their hands and the main GW studio just has no interest in supporting those old pre-8E army lists.
And failing miserable at it imo.
Soa f.e. Are not what they should be as replacement and Corsairs as concept 100% better then Ynnari imo.
Vaktathi wrote: From the sound of it FW is basically being tasked with specialist games stuff and everything for the main 40k game is being handled by the main studio, has been for a while now.
I don't think its an issue of the FW people not wanting to do things, more that it's been taken out of their hands and the main GW studio just has no interest in supporting those old pre-8E army lists.
And failing miserable at it imo.
Soa f.e. Are not what they should be as replacement and Corsairs as concept 100% better then Ynnari imo.
yeah... they had a finished good, flushed out, cool fluffy working 4th Aeldari race.... they could have been like "Screw you lets make god of death for us" even and it would have worked too.
Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.
They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.
Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.
They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.
Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.
Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.
They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.
Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.
They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.
Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.
WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.
Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.
They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.
Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.
They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.
Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.
WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.
A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.
Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.
Assault Centurions (+7 points)
12+2d6 (always) shots at 24"/8". T5, S5, 2+, 4 wounds, 4 attacks (No penalty Thunder Hammer)
You have a few significant mistakes there:
- An Aggressor is 6 + d6 shots, not 6 + d3.
- An Assault Centurion is only 3 attacks, not 4.
- An Assault Centurion as-armed is 15 points more expensive than an Aggressor as-armed. I'm not sure how you got 7.
I'd talk about maximising Aggressors with your faction traits and what-not but you'd do the same thing for the Centurions if you have any sense. Ranged Marksmen under a UM successor is pretty obnoxious on Aggressors and I don't think Cents have a combo quite that broken yet, but there are still at least four codexes that I haven't seen yet. (IH and RG are taking their sweet time getting delivered.)
On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.
Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.
They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.
Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.
They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.
Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.
WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.
A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.
Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.
Are you familiar with tactics such as hostage taking? You don't need to surround an entire enemy unit, just a single model. If every model in a unit cannot get free, then that unit cannot fall back.
Spoiler:
Hormagaunts are really good at it, due to their 6" pile in + consolidation moves.
Spoiler:
I find they still work exactly as you describe. A non-killy but very annoying tarpit, that excels at tying up multiple enemy units. They could probably be a point cheaper, but that's more a balancing concern than one of the unit not working the same way.
The Newman wrote: On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.
Erm - are you sure about SM Dreadnoughts having AV14 on the front? I just went and checked the unit entry for Codex: Space Marines, and they were 12/12/10...
The Newman wrote: On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.
Erm - are you sure about SM Dreadnoughts having AV14 on the front? I just went and checked the unit entry for Codex: Space Marines, and they were 12/12/10...
...well I suppose that's what I get for not doing a little research first, I was thinking of the 2nd / 3rd ed transition. I honestly didn't think I'd been playing that far back.
Dreads were a lot better though back in 3rd and even 4th at least to me. They'd been pretty meh since 5th on but I'd argue they aren't too bad right now, they just aren't too great right now either.
The Newman wrote: On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.
Erm - are you sure about SM Dreadnoughts having AV14 on the front? I just went and checked the unit entry for Codex: Space Marines, and they were 12/12/10...
...well I suppose that's what I get for not doing a little research first, I was thinking of the 2nd / 3rd ed transition. I honestly didn't think I'd been playing that far back.
There is an AV14 Dreadnaught, but it's Bray'arth Ashmantle (40k)/Cassian Dracos (30k), both of which are epic relic chassis built by Vulkan.
The Newman wrote: On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.
Erm - are you sure about SM Dreadnoughts having AV14 on the front? I just went and checked the unit entry for Codex: Space Marines, and they were 12/12/10...
...well I suppose that's what I get for not doing a little research first, I was thinking of the 2nd / 3rd ed transition. I honestly didn't think I'd been playing that far back.
There is an AV14 Dreadnaught, but it's Bray'arth Ashmantle (40k)/Cassian Dracos (30k), both of which are epic relic chassis built by Vulkan.
It wasn't just that they were tough, it was that they were tough and cheap.
Assault Centurions (+7 points)
12+2d6 (always) shots at 24"/8". T5, S5, 2+, 4 wounds, 4 attacks (No penalty Thunder Hammer)
I would be all: but points cost difference... until I looked up the costs.
you save 45 points on the aggressors, but to get the units into position(where the Cents can slog it and fire hurricane bolters without as much need for transport) Those 45 points are more than evened out via Land raider vs Repulsor costs.
so... yeah, Assault cents are just all around better.
Assault Centurions (+7 points)
12+2d6 (always) shots at 24"/8". T5, S5, 2+, 4 wounds, 4 attacks (No penalty Thunder Hammer)
I would be all: but points cost difference... until I looked up the costs.
you save 45 points on the aggressors, but to get the units into position(where the Cents can slog it and fire hurricane bolters without as much need for transport) Those 45 points are more than evened out via Land raider vs Repulsor costs.
so... yeah, Assault cents are just all around better.
Uh, it's not hard to let Aggressors threaten a 26" range and double-tap on turn-one even after moving with the right faction traits. They're 19 shots per model on average, Cents only manage that within 11" with the same buffs. Cents are probably better delivered via Encirclement under White Scars, but that just means neither unit actually needs a transport and the difference in cost between LRs and Repulsors isn't really a factor.
I've always had a bit of a problem with people just taking Scouts because they're cheap Troops choices, because realistically, Scouts shouldn't be Troops. They're not the core of an army (unless it's 10th Company, but then, we should let Devastators Squads be Troops too because they're the core of the 9th Company), they're too different from the standard power armour of the Space Marines to be considered a "baseline" unit in my opinion, and would be far better off actually serving in the Fast Attack slot.
Basically, Scouts being spammed and used as the core of an army because they're the cheapest Space Marines just feels wrong for what they're supposed to be.
I've always had a bit of a problem with people just taking Scouts because they're cheap Troops choices, because realistically, Scouts shouldn't be Troops. They're not the core of an army (unless it's 10th Company, but then, we should let Devastators Squads be Troops too because they're the core of the 9th Company), they're too different from the standard power armour of the Space Marines to be considered a "baseline" unit in my opinion, and would be far better off actually serving in the Fast Attack slot.
Basically, Scouts being spammed and used as the core of an army because they're the cheapest Space Marines just feels wrong for what they're supposed to be.
Imagine how it felt being a SW player when they got the WS/BS buff. A cheaper version of the unit in a better FOC slot.
Here's a unit that's already lost its role: Primaris Reivers.
When you consider Incursors' ability to get an extra Hit on every 6, they end up getting very close to the same number of hits that a Reiver gets in close combat. Same strength and AP. The big difference? Incursors have Concealed Positions whereas Reivers have to pay 2 extra points per model to get deep strike.
Reivers have Terror Troops and Shock Grenades, but Incursors have bolt weapons that ignore cover, haywire mines, smoke grenades, and an ability that ignores BS/to hit modifiers. Incursors are also, critically, a troop option.
So... Yeah. There you have it. Reivers, a brand new unit, has already lost its role in a Primaris army.
They used to feel kind of cool, for a bit. At this point they are just scouts in a worse slot with some more variance for special weapon use.
Very cool fluff, would be easy to give them some rules befitting such but no. Instead they are just crap with really no reason or point. Sitting down next to the space wolf Reivers who also have little point or reason. Isn't it odd in the space wolf book they both seemingly only talk to each other ? Probably because they both suck a bit and lack focus or point.
This is a great thread. It would be nice for Proposed Rules to go through here and make some fixes for all these guys.
In fact, here's a thread for that.
They used to be massive, towering, tough to kill, and had nasty firepower.
It now costs more than 2 leman russes, with half the firepower of two leman russes, less wounds than 2 leman russes, a gate you will never be able to use due to the awkward wording.
Or even worse, you can get two doomsday arks for the same price, double the firepower, and with quantum shielding.
They are now oversized paperweights. They're a joke, and its sad as the army's first, and most iconic tank, has been a disaster for a long time.
They used to feel kind of cool, for a bit. At this point they are just scouts in a worse slot with some more variance for special weapon use.
Very cool fluff, would be easy to give them some rules befitting such but no. Instead they are just crap with really no reason or point. Sitting down next to the space wolf Reivers who also have little point or reason. Isn't it odd in the space wolf book they both seemingly only talk to each other ? Probably because they both suck a bit and lack focus or point.
The real tragedy is that Space Wolves Scouts don't have Vet stats.
Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.
They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.
Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.
They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.
Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.
WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.
A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.
Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.
Are you familiar with tactics such as hostage taking? You don't need to surround an entire enemy unit, just a single model. If every model in a unit cannot get free, then that unit cannot fall back.
Spoiler:
Hormagaunts are really good at it, due to their 6" pile in + consolidation moves.
Spoiler:
I find they still work exactly as you describe. A non-killy but very annoying tarpit, that excels at tying up multiple enemy units.
They could probably be a point cheaper, but that's more a balancing concern than one of the unit not working the same way.
Haven't played 40k in over a year, but I am quite sure that pile in/consolidate moves have to be made towards the nearest enemy model/unit.
The Congo line you suggest looks as dumb as a brick. Having to resort to 'gamey' shenanigans like that to get them to work, just highlights how bad the rules are. They are meant to be a swarm that overwhelms their foe, not dancing to 'Do The Congo' by Black Lace.
Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.
They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.
Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.
They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.
Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.
WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.
A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.
Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.
Are you familiar with tactics such as hostage taking? You don't need to surround an entire enemy unit, just a single model. If every model in a unit cannot get free, then that unit cannot fall back.
Spoiler:
Hormagaunts are really good at it, due to their 6" pile in + consolidation moves.
Spoiler:
I find they still work exactly as you describe. A non-killy but very annoying tarpit, that excels at tying up multiple enemy units.
They could probably be a point cheaper, but that's more a balancing concern than one of the unit not working the same way.
Haven't played 40k in over a year, but I am quite sure that pile in/consolidate moves have to be made towards the nearest enemy model/unit.
The Congo line you suggest looks as dumb as a brick. Having to resort to 'gamey' shenanigans like that to get them to work, just highlights how bad the rules are. They are meant to be a swarm that overwhelms their foe, not dancing to 'Do The Congo' by Black Lace.
Its model by model to pile in/consolidate not units by unit.
And that "gamey" is a solid tactic and not a WAAC/TFG tactic, its been known and used from day 1 of 8th, you can still "fallback" thats the point its to make you run away, or to pull you in.
Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.
They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.
Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.
They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.
Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.
WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.
A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.
Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.
Are you familiar with tactics such as hostage taking? You don't need to surround an entire enemy unit, just a single model. If every model in a unit cannot get free, then that unit cannot fall back.
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Hormagaunts are really good at it, due to their 6" pile in + consolidation moves.
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I find they still work exactly as you describe. A non-killy but very annoying tarpit, that excels at tying up multiple enemy units. They could probably be a point cheaper, but that's more a balancing concern than one of the unit not working the same way.
Haven't played 40k in over a year, but I am quite sure that pile in/consolidate moves have to be made towards the nearest enemy model/unit.
The Congo line you suggest looks as dumb as a brick. Having to resort to 'gamey' shenanigans like that to get them to work, just highlights how bad the rules are. They are meant to be a swarm that overwhelms their foe, not dancing to 'Do The Congo' by Black Lace.
Pile in/Consolidate moves are made model by model, and have to put you closer towards the nearest enemy model. But not necessarily directly towards that model. You can absolutely circle around them. Charge moves on the other hand simply have to end with one of your models within 1" of a target enemy unit. The remainder of your models are free to be placed anywhere, so long as they retain coherency. My example there looks daft mainly because it's an extreme case. While technically possible, it's more likely that units you'll want to lock down will be much closer together, so you won't have to resort to it.
In any case, this is how 8th edition assault armies are played at a high level, and part of how they can remain competitive against shooting gunlines. Hormagaunts are particularly good at it, and by coincidence it happens to make them function in a very similar manner to your original description of how they used to work.
Gitdakka wrote: You have to use the attacks though, so tripointing one model is unreliable as the enemy can pick it away as casualty.
That's why you tripoint model from unit you didn't charge. In these examples the enemy unit on left you declare charge, enemy unit on right you don't. You tri point the unit on right and you CANNOT attack it(as you didn't charge vs it).
Pretty much all units that were cavalry (whether hard hitting on the charge or annoying flankers) equivalents. Dislike how movement has become rather irrelevant other than for gamey tricks (which were always a thing, if frowned upon).
Dai wrote: Pretty much all units that were cavalry (whether hard hitting on the charge or annoying flankers) equivalents. Dislike how movement has become rather irrelevant other than for gamey tricks.
i blame a combination of scale and sizecreep aswell as absurd baseline terrain rules for that one.
But it is a shame because by consequence transports have also become less viable.
