It definitely needs some work imo for like making our chaos lord have DR and T5 or making the plague surgeon useful. Also I feel we we really need better stratagems. But what are your opinions? If you agree how do we get something done?
It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
There are some things left on the cutting room floor. Like the lords not feeling very DG at all. I think most of this could be handled with some unit changes. The lack of exciting strats though ? That's a tough one, maybe that is what psychic awakening will do for the other factions ? Drop in stuff to match the new marine dex madness ?
At this point I think they should un nerf the zombie strat at least.
I'd say though there won't be a new DG codex for quite some time and the best bet is to hope for some psychic awakening love. Whenever that is supposed to be, at this pace could be awhile off for everyone involved.
I'm kind of shocked DG got a codex at all, since up until the moment of release they didn't really feel like a subfaction that was more deserving of the update than any other CSM subfaction.
That being said, I feel like they're in a stronger place than a lot of other chapters. Unlike vanilla CSM, they don't suffer from their vehicles not getting their normal army buffs, and while they don't have a lot of stratagems, nearly all of the stratagems they do have are pretty useful. The only ones that seem outright bad are Boons, Killshot, and Plague Pact (since summoning in general is pretty bad). Ten useful stratagems is a pretty good number, especially for a niche subfaction, and some of those are devestatingly good if used in the right circumstances.
If there are balance issues, I feel like most of them can be fixed by points changes. The codex has pretty good internal balance, with all of its units having a good reason to exist and filling a valuably niche.
I'd say no, they don't need a new codex. Like with most armies it would be nice for DG players to get one, but they're low on the priority list.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
No, Mortarion is competitive, and the plaguehull whatever thing. They need an overhaul.
Moonknight wrote: It definitely needs some work imo for like making our chaos lord have DR and T5 or making the plague surgeon useful. Also I feel we we really need better stratagems. But what are your opinions? If you agree how do we get something done?
Nah, they're a bit old feeling due to the early edition curse, but they're ageing reasonably well so far.
Grey knights need some love first and foremost at this stage, after that I'm not sure. Probably dark angels.
Well we got the extra attack, and let's be honest we all know that this CA is going to be thick with changes.
Let's see, they need to fix traits for CSM, they need to give them doctrine equivalents to promote mono faction. Which kinda sets a precedent for all factions in my opinion and if they don't get something we'll never hear the end of it.
Which is just going to make the game even killier and faster
Oh plus there's the standard missions and such too!
Competitively they're still solid. Points efficient and hard to kill units are always solid. They're one of the armies I seem to struggle against with just about every army I play.
This is the problem as I see it though, your post highlights it perfectly.
GW has started giving the fans what they want. Every time they capitulate, it only emboldens the fans more and soon wish-listing becomes actual rules. This process leads to game imbalance and power creep on far more extreme levels.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
Difference that until recently did not exist.
And Lore wise there is a case to be made for EC and TS before them in uniqueness.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
Difference that until recently did not exist.
And Lore wise there is a case to be made for EC and TS before them in uniqueness.
Maybe Thousand Sons, but certainly not Emperors Children. Based on 7th though, everyone having access to everything was fine, even though there were some lackluster rules.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
Difference that until recently did not exist.
And Lore wise there is a case to be made for EC and TS before them in uniqueness.
Maybe Thousand Sons, but certainly not Emperors Children. Based on 7th though, everyone having access to everything was fine, even though there were some lackluster rules.
Now you show lack of knowledge, EC literally is a bunch of modified insane freaks and they still have apothecaries etc.
Deathguard was just plaguemarines until recently, even lore wise.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
Difference that until recently did not exist.
And Lore wise there is a case to be made for EC and TS before them in uniqueness.
Maybe Thousand Sons, but certainly not Emperors Children. Based on 7th though, everyone having access to everything was fine, even though there were some lackluster rules.
Now you show lack of knowledge, EC literally is a bunch of modified insane freaks and they still have apothecaries etc.
Deathguard was just plaguemarines until recently, even lore wise.
Actually, one of my ideas for consolidation is generic Apothecaries becoming an option for Chaos (because you and I both know they exist for the Legions), and then one of the unique units Death Guard get is their Plague Surgeon or whatever it's called.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
Difference that until recently did not exist.
And Lore wise there is a case to be made for EC and TS before them in uniqueness.
Maybe Thousand Sons, but certainly not Emperors Children. Based on 7th though, everyone having access to everything was fine, even though there were some lackluster rules.
Now you show lack of knowledge, EC literally is a bunch of modified insane freaks and they still have apothecaries etc.
Deathguard was just plaguemarines until recently, even lore wise.
Actually, one of my ideas for consolidation is generic Apothecaries becoming an option for Chaos (because you and I both know they exist for the Legions), and then one of the unique units Death Guard get is their Plague Surgeon or whatever it's called.
Out of GW perspective that would be dumb because they can't sell you more rulesets.
As for apothecaries, honestly there are a lot more glaring issues, like the supposed ancient tech with Chaos that basically only is fw, not to mention especially any anti-grav vehicle like landspeeders etc.
Also a true fighter not a flying turkey would be something.
And don't get me started on pods
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
Difference that until recently did not exist.
And Lore wise there is a case to be made for EC and TS before them in uniqueness.
Maybe Thousand Sons, but certainly not Emperors Children. Based on 7th though, everyone having access to everything was fine, even though there were some lackluster rules.
Now you show lack of knowledge, EC literally is a bunch of modified insane freaks and they still have apothecaries etc.
Deathguard was just plaguemarines until recently, even lore wise.
Actually, one of my ideas for consolidation is generic Apothecaries becoming an option for Chaos (because you and I both know they exist for the Legions), and then one of the unique units Death Guard get is their Plague Surgeon or whatever it's called.
Out of GW perspective that would be dumb because they can't sell you more rulesets.
As for apothecaries, honestly there are a lot more glaring issues, like the supposed ancient tech with Chaos that basically only is fw, not to mention especially any anti-grav vehicle like landspeeders etc.
Also a true fighter not a flying turkey would be something.
And don't get me started on pods
And those slight differences are fine, because CSM get Dinobots and Daemon goodies. However I think we can agree that CSM finally getting Apothecaries doesn't break anything.
No they are most certainly not FINE.
if you are supposed to have an ancient hyper technological Arsenal, yet for some reason you don't at the same time and instead got dinobots that 60% of the legions would not use there's a issue.
Not Online!!! wrote: No they are most certainly not FINE.
if you are supposed to have an ancient hyper technological Arsenal, yet for some reason you don't at the same time and instead got dinobots that 60% of the legions would not use there's a issue.
And FW can cover those rarer pieces of equipment like they always have. The issue is treating CSM like Spiky Marines but with less tech, and that's just wrong. They should be treated as legit Vets from the Legions, with Daemon Engines and other corrupted goodies. I said it before and I'll say it again: Deathwatch infantry plays like CSM generic Infantry should.
Togusa wrote: This is the problem as I see it though, your post highlights it perfectly.
GW has started giving the fans what they want. Every time they capitulate, it only emboldens the fans more and soon wish-listing becomes actual rules. This process leads to game imbalance and power creep on far more extreme levels.
People should pay more attention to this post. People cry power creep, but then scrabble to get their own.
CA is little more than 2 months out and maybe we'll get lucky with the 2 week FAQ for IH.
They don't need a new codex, but an update to some of the units (such as a Lord with Disgustingly Resilient and access to DG weapons) and maybe a Specialist Detachment would be appropriate.
chimeara wrote: Moreover, I think WE and EC should get a codex before TS and DG get an update.
100 times this.
If DG need to be looked at fine, but for now leave that in the realm of Chapter Approved books. Let's get the other cult Chaos Legions back into place first, then work backwards.
After the arrival of the new marine dex all older books need an upgrade to give them Pure Faction bonus and more numerous and interesting strats.
This goes double for any flavour of marines as it is far easier to compare and contrast to see the obvious imbalances between the releases.
That said, comparing just the older style dexs DG are fairing reasonably well and are in no more need then any of the others released within the first year of the edition.
I'm hopeful that Psychic awakening may well bring the Pure Faction bonus out for the other armies or perhaps chapter approved.
WisdomLS wrote: After the arrival of the new marine dex all older books need an upgrade to give them Pure Faction bonus and more numerous and interesting strats.
This goes double for any flavour of marines as it is far easier to compare and contrast to see the obvious imbalances between the releases.
That said, comparing just the older style dexs DG are fairing reasonably well and are in no more need then any of the others released within the first year of the edition.
I'm hopeful that Psychic awakening may well bring the Pure Faction bonus out for the other armies or perhaps chapter approved.
The daemons codex for me was a bit of a swing and a miss due to the nature of soup, I found it weird that they push rewards for mono god detachments, which sort of suggests they wanted it to work in tandem with the mortal followers for each god, rather than a smattering of combined daemons as you might expect from how they're shown to people. The DE patrol CP structure handles this better.
I think the DG codex is working as intended, and whilst I would love some of the units to be improved (it is my main faction after all) I agree that there are far more pressing issues that need dealing with first
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
What? Those differences only exist because of the recent codex release at the start of this edition. Until then they were Nurgle plague marines. That was it.
Excluding Grey Knights, none of the Marine subfactions require a new codex. Deathwatch can have a pdf to allow Phobos stuff if it is considered balanced since we're literally still going through Marine supplement releases now. They can wait until another faction(s) has had something new.
Also looking forward to my Evil Sunz /Speed Freeks codex, given they are actually an in lore completely different sub faction compared to the parent codex.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
What? Those differences only exist because of the recent codex release at the start of this edition. Until then they were Nurgle plague marines. That was it.
I think he meant game wise - Codex: Death Guard is basically a bunch of unique units plus a small collection of default CSM stuff like chaos lords, possessed and the defiler - we don't even have vindicators. DG are to CSM as GK are to SM.
That said, I'd gladly be tossed in with Codex: Chaos Space Marine if that would mean getting access to all their stratagems and units.
Excluding Grey Knights, none of the Marine subfactions require a new codex. Deathwatch can have a pdf to allow Phobos stuff if it is considered balanced since we're literally still going through Marine supplement releases now. They can wait until another faction(s) has had something new.
I'm fairly sure that Dark Angels would disagree, considering how low their win ratio is and that the whole tripple wing thing doesn't work for them.
Also looking forward to my Evil Sunz /Speed Freeks codex, given they are actually an in lore completely different sub faction compared to the parent codex.
Be careful what you wish for. I for one hope that it never happens, for the reasons I've explained before.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
No, Mortarion is competitive, and the plaguehull whatever thing. They need an overhaul.
Mortarion is not competitive at all.
The reason why DG keeps showing up in chaos soup are Blightlord Terminators, Foul Blightspawns, Daemon Prince of Nurgle, PBC and the "definitely balanced" FW dreads.
If you go mono-codex(team events) or less into competitive territory, a bunch of options become good enough to run, like blight launcher marines, pox walkers, drones or blight haulers and somewhere behind all that, Mortarion.
DG has a bunch of problems that should be fixed, like the aforementioned T5/T4 and DR inconsistency, few worthwhile stratagems, useless relics, Deathshroud being unable to do their job due to Tactical Reserves, Plague Surgeon being a trap unit and missing units from Shadowspear that DG should have access to (Greater Possessed and Venom Crawler).
Could they use a new codex? Yes. Is it urgent? Naw.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
What? Those differences only exist because of the recent codex release at the start of this edition. Until then they were Nurgle plague marines. That was it.
Excluding Grey Knights, none of the Marine subfactions require a new codex. Deathwatch can have a pdf to allow Phobos stuff if it is considered balanced since we're literally still going through Marine supplement releases now. They can wait until another faction(s) has had something new.
Also looking forward to my Evil Sunz /Speed Freeks codex, given they are actually an in lore completely different sub faction compared to the parent codex.
Please don't start banging this drum again, a speed freaks book needs notable ground work before it could be considered even remotely needed. At present you represent them with bikes, vehicles and speedy mek units, something in abundance in the codex. To expand this to the point where this becomes a new faction they'd either need a host of kits to flesh that out (from nothing), to replace the units they take away, or have a book with far more limited options for fluff reasons.
I get you want xenos releases and they seem to be coming, but the marine factions do exist even if you don't like it, as such they will get updates just the same.
The bell guy, tallyman are underwhelming as support characters. Personally, they should have been a single entry with combined rules, but that will never happen now. So give the Tallyman some Rites like the Dark Apostle, and have the Bell guy buff Spawn or Poxwalkers or Gellarpox or something, like a Beastmaster.
Also, make the Standard Bearer a Character, (it has a clam pack) with a decent Area effect (+1 to DR would be nice). Then leave that cowbell as the icon of Nurgle with pointless -1 Ld.
Lastly, infiltrating Poxwalkers, be it through a deepstrike (cargo containers) or or just crawling up from the sewers ala GSC. They opened up the Vigilus series with a Short Story about this cargo container void dropping onto an imperial dock, where thousands of Poxwalkers spilled out. This can easily be applied to the tabletop. We have Cargo container models they're giving away in Killteam and Conquest. Make them transports.
I want pox walkers to be more than just proxy Plaguebearers.
I'd like an Errata that makes Lord, Sorcerer and Possessed T5 and gives them DR with appropriate points increases. Greater Possessed of Nurgle would be cool, too.
That would suffice. Other than that a proper Nurgle Codex would be nice like they did in AoS, with DG and Nurgle Daemons combined.
The Daemons codex needs a redo way more than the Death Guard.
Frankly its a mess.
Why is there even two different data sheets for 'Chaos Lord' and 'Lord of Contagion'?
They should both be combined together into 'Chaos Lord of Nurgle'.
Its nonsensical.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
What? Those differences only exist because of the recent codex release at the start of this edition. Until then they were Nurgle plague marines. That was it.
Excluding Grey Knights, none of the Marine subfactions require a new codex. Deathwatch can have a pdf to allow Phobos stuff if it is considered balanced since we're literally still going through Marine supplement releases now. They can wait until another faction(s) has had something new.
Also looking forward to my Evil Sunz /Speed Freeks codex, given they are actually an in lore completely different sub faction compared to the parent codex.
Please don't start banging this drum again, a speed freaks book needs notable ground work before it could be considered even remotely needed. At present you represent them with bikes, vehicles and speedy mek units, something in abundance in the codex. To expand this to the point where this becomes a new faction they'd either need a host of kits to flesh that out (from nothing), to replace the units they take away, or have a book with far more limited options for fluff reasons.
I get you want xenos releases and they seem to be coming, but the marine factions do exist even if you don't like it, as such they will get updates just the same.
I'll bang whatever drum I like, thanks. GW have proven time and time again that it works and they simply listen to whoever shouts the loudest. For correction a speed freeks book needs no more work than a DG book, or any other sub faction book. You don't need to worry about how GW would flesh out the book either, the marine supplements contain literally only special characters, stratagems and relics. I see no reason GW can't do this for both Speed freeks and the various CSM legions. There aren't enough notable differences from CSM to EC or WE, without significant extra work, to warrant their own codexes IMO.
Lol you talk as if marines aren't continually updated with gluts of new models and books while we're still in the middle of a Marine release. Classic!
I've said it before and I'll say it again - I want parity, nothing more, nothing less. I'm sick of the obsessive focus with marines and their spiky brothers. It's tiring and boring.
The bell guy, tallyman are underwhelming as support characters. Personally, they should have been a single entry with combined rules, but that will never happen now. So give the Tallyman some Rites like the Dark Apostle, and have the Bell guy buff Spawn or Poxwalkers or Gellarpox or something, like a Beastmaster.
Also, make the Standard Bearer a Character, (it has a clam pack) with a decent Area effect (+1 to DR would be nice). Then leave that cowbell as the icon of Nurgle with pointless -1 Ld.
Lastly, infiltrating Poxwalkers, be it through a deepstrike (cargo containers) or or just crawling up from the sewers ala GSC. They opened up the Vigilus series with a Short Story about this cargo container void dropping onto an imperial dock, where thousands of Poxwalkers spilled out. This can easily be applied to the tabletop. We have Cargo container models they're giving away in Killteam and Conquest. Make them transports.
I want pox walkers to be more than just proxy Plaguebearers.
The "cowbell" gives 2D6 Pick one advance which is pretty handy for an army that ignores penalties for advance and shoot.
Tallyman is a 58% chance to refund CP, which is far better than the usual 33% relics.
Daedalus81 wrote: The "cowbell" gives 2D6 Pick one advance which is pretty handy for an army that ignores penalties for advance and shoot.
Wrong. Death Guard don't ignore penalties for advancing and shooting. Give that rule another read.
Plus the buff boosts their movement by an average of 1" - which is the same amount by which Death Guard units move less than their non-Death Guard equivalents.
Tallyman is a 58% chance to refund CP, which is far better than the usual 33% relics.
Also wrong, rolling exactly 7 is a 16.66% chance. Unlike most relics, it also doesn't work for non-Death Guard stratagems, most notably the command re-roll.
For 55 points reroll hits in CC with the Tallyman is actually very handy and makes him an auto-include in CC focused DG lists.
As A DG player I say there should be nothing that provides +1 to DR, it would be too powerful as we saw in 7th edition. It's good that that one relic is very limited.
That makes it tough to find a niché for the surgeon, though. Right now his best use is as a Marinekiller as his Aura isn't that great. Maybe he should be able to revive dead models or heal characters.
Nurgle Icon could need something else, but I'd be fine if it simply went down 5 points. Or gave you a movement bonus like an Instrument.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: For 55 points reroll hits in CC with the Tallyman is actually very handy and makes him an auto-include in CC focused DG lists.
True, CC focused lists aren't awesome though, and he can't keep up with most CC units.
As A DG player I say there should be nothing that provides +1 to DR, it would be too powerful as we saw in 7th edition. It's good that that one relic is very limited.
That makes it tough to find a niché for the surgeon, though. Right now his best use is as a Marinekiller as his Aura isn't that great. Maybe he should be able to revive dead models or heal characters.
I agree. Giving +1 to DR for just infantry might a viable though, DP, vehicles and Mortarion don't need that buff.
Nurgle Icon could need something else, but I'd be fine if it simply went down 5 points. Or gave you a movement bonus like an Instrument.
We already have the bell for movement though. Something like +1 damage on rolls of six would be nice or giving all bolters in the unit the plague weapon special rule. Plague marines could use some extra damage.
Daedalus81 wrote: The "cowbell" gives 2D6 Pick one advance which is pretty handy for an army that ignores penalties for advance and shoot.
Wrong. Death Guard don't ignore penalties for advancing and shooting. Give that rule another read.
Plus the buff boosts their movement by an average of 1" - which is the same amount by which Death Guard units move less than their non-Death Guard equivalents.
Tallyman is a 58% chance to refund CP, which is far better than the usual 33% relics.
Also wrong, rolling exactly 7 is a 16.66% chance. Unlike most relics, it also doesn't work for non-Death Guard stratagems, most notably the command re-roll.
They don't? Obviously not for all guns.
Such units do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
What? Those differences only exist because of the recent codex release at the start of this edition. Until then they were Nurgle plague marines. That was it.
I think he meant game wise - Codex: Death Guard is basically a bunch of unique units plus a small collection of default CSM stuff like chaos lords, possessed and the defiler - we don't even have vindicators. DG are to CSM as GK are to SM.
That said, I'd gladly be tossed in with Codex: Chaos Space Marine if that would mean getting access to all their stratagems and units.
Excluding Grey Knights, none of the Marine subfactions require a new codex. Deathwatch can have a pdf to allow Phobos stuff if it is considered balanced since we're literally still going through Marine supplement releases now. They can wait until another faction(s) has had something new.
I'm fairly sure that Dark Angels would disagree, considering how low their win ratio is and that the whole tripple wing thing doesn't work for them.
Also looking forward to my Evil Sunz /Speed Freeks codex, given they are actually an in lore completely different sub faction compared to the parent codex.
Be careful what you wish for. I for one hope that it never happens, for the reasons I've explained before.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
No, Mortarion is competitive, and the plaguehull whatever thing. They need an overhaul.
Mortarion is not competitive at all.
The reason why DG keeps showing up in chaos soup are Blightlord Terminators, Foul Blightspawns, Daemon Prince of Nurgle, PBC and the "definitely balanced" FW dreads.
If you go mono-codex(team events) or less into competitive territory, a bunch of options become good enough to run, like blight launcher marines, pox walkers, drones or blight haulers and somewhere behind all that, Mortarion.
DG has a bunch of problems that should be fixed, like the aforementioned T5/T4 and DR inconsistency, few worthwhile stratagems, useless relics, Deathshroud being unable to do their job due to Tactical Reserves, Plague Surgeon being a trap unit and missing units from Shadowspear that DG should have access to (Greater Possessed and Venom Crawler).
Could they use a new codex? Yes. Is it urgent? Naw.
Mortarion is still showing up last I checked.
And yeah you're right it isn't urgent. HOWEVER, it is a pretty lazy codex to try and make the army different to the rest of the CSM codex. There's some REALLY cool ideas, but the execution on many of them falls flat and the inconsistencies are pretty frickin lame. Not to mention the lost units you were using the last 4 or so editions is a kick to old players.
Idk if DG “need” a new codex. Their relentless advance rule could use a little tweak. Some small points tweaks. The Lord could use getting an update for sure.
There’s other armies that need so much more though. The wolf angels need help. Mechanicus still has some issues. Guard, while combat effective as a whole, has a ton of units that straight up suck. Inquisition may as well have been squatted at this point. Chaos Space Marines (the units) are still crap.
Honestly if I had to make a list of need for new codexes, Death Guard would be near the bottom.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
What? Those differences only exist because of the recent codex release at the start of this edition. Until then they were Nurgle plague marines. That was it.
Excluding Grey Knights, none of the Marine subfactions require a new codex. Deathwatch can have a pdf to allow Phobos stuff if it is considered balanced since we're literally still going through Marine supplement releases now. They can wait until another faction(s) has had something new.
Also looking forward to my Evil Sunz /Speed Freeks codex, given they are actually an in lore completely different sub faction compared to the parent codex.
Please don't start banging this drum again, a speed freaks book needs notable ground work before it could be considered even remotely needed. At present you represent them with bikes, vehicles and speedy mek units, something in abundance in the codex. To expand this to the point where this becomes a new faction they'd either need a host of kits to flesh that out (from nothing), to replace the units they take away, or have a book with far more limited options for fluff reasons.
I get you want xenos releases and they seem to be coming, but the marine factions do exist even if you don't like it, as such they will get updates just the same.
I'll bang whatever drum I like, thanks. GW have proven time and time again that it works and they simply listen to whoever shouts the loudest. For correction a speed freeks book needs no more work than a DG book, or any other sub faction book. You don't need to worry about how GW would flesh out the book either, the marine supplements contain literally only special characters, stratagems and relics. I see no reason GW can't do this for both Speed freeks and the various CSM legions. There aren't enough notable differences from CSM to EC or WE, without significant extra work, to warrant their own codexes IMO.
Lol you talk as if marines aren't continually updated with gluts of new models and books while we're still in the middle of a Marine release. Classic!
I've said it before and I'll say it again - I want parity, nothing more, nothing less. I'm sick of the obsessive focus with marines and their spiky brothers. It's tiring and boring.
Yes, 14 new kits is all it took to get death guard where they are, you are right though speed freaks don't need 14 new kits, because they're already fairly representable.
Chaos in all flavours needed some attention going into the edition and you'd be hard pressed to deny that. Orks need less love than many other factions as grey knights, custodes and harlies have a very limited range.
Sisters are getting an update around the corner, eldar & dark eldar are getting releases soon, there is talk of an ork release and all you can do is whine that marines got some expensive supplements and half a dozen kits.
The only thing more boring than marine releases are "why can't I have that, gw hates me" crusades.
Sumilidon wrote:GW only just buffed DG, I doubt we'll see a new codex anytime soon
Really, I haven't heard of any relevant buffs, unless you're talking about Hateful Assault.
wuestenfux wrote:Chaos has been treated quite well recently.
There is one faction that comes to my mind which will need an update: Grey Knights.
CSM, yes arguably, but DG hasn't seen any sort of buff or update except changes in point costs and hateful assault since it's release, and even those have never made it better than bottom mid-tier in terms of competitive play, and that's mostly through souping daemons.
I don't know if an entire new codex is what the DG needs, but at the very least they need an update and are definitely among those early armies that need it the most, alongside certainly GK. Compare to say the IG, who not only have always been in a far better place but have also received new Specialist Detachments with Vigilus.
Honestly, rather than the nigh-worthless codex they got, I'd be far happier with the DG if they (and the other cult legions) got the Codex Supplement treatment. Sure, it would mean more books to buy, which is a pain especially financially, but they would end up in a far better place than either they or TS are now.
As it is if during this edition's lifespan we get anything better than CA giving our lords and sorcerers T5 and DR, I'll be incredibly and pleasantly surprised.
And yes, I admit there are armies that require it more, like the aforementioned Grey Knights, but I also honestly don't care? I'd be happy for them if they get updated, but of course, my priority lies with my own army.
The only ones In-Codex are the blight launchers and the melta gun, there's a maybe 1 or two more looking at FW Dreads, but that's it. Combined with our 18'' RF being made near obsolete thanks to the bolter rule (the only use is on plasma guns), the DG Legion Trait has only gotten worse over time.
Dudeface wrote: Yes, 14 new kits is all it took to get death guard where they are, you are right though speed freaks don't need 14 new kits, because they're already fairly representable.
Irrelevant and completely missing the point.
Chaos in all flavours needed some attention going into the edition and you'd be hard pressed to deny that.
Compared to what? I deny it.
Orks need less love than many other factions as grey knights, custodes and harlies have a very limited range.
I'm not surprised that a faction that has existed as long as 40k has more models than those invented recently, one of which was released literally last year.
Guess who needs more love? Guess which faction has had none. That's right - Evil Sunz boiiii.
Sisters are getting an update around the corner, eldar & dark eldar are getting releases soon, there is talk of an ork release and all you can do is whine that marines got some expensive supplements and half a dozen kits.
The only thing more boring than marine releases are "why can't I have that, gw hates me" crusades.
It's like trying to have a conversation with a brick wall.
Here's my stance, since you clearly don't understand it; I find it incredible that factions of certain sub factions, that already have a unique codex, that (it could be argued) they didn't really need in the first place, are clamouring for a second codex. I think there are many other factions more deserving, my own (of course) included.
People here appear to be talking past one another. There are two questions that people have addressed, and I really don't see any genuine disagreement.
1) Does DG need a new codex?
Yes. The recent SM release represents a dramatic shift in codex design that has revolutionised the game. In order to achieve something akin to parity all armies need a similar treatment.
2) Does DG need a new codex sooner than other armies?
No. Although DG has never been a top tier codex (at least since the rule of three), DR is an immensely powerful special rule that will always keep them relevant.
2a) An addendum to the above: There are many armies which are Ur-SM in this game; armies that are basically variations on SM. These include CSM, DG, TS, BA, DA, SW, and GK. The reason why these people clamour for a codex is that the armies have such similar tools that a dramatic increase in the power of one of these means that playing any other against them becomes extremely difficult, in a way it doesn't for other factions that play differently (see: Kenos factions particularly). So the increase in the power of SM has meant that it's really hard for any of these other codices to compete with them. Now, again, GK are in the worst position here, and demand most immediate attention in an ideal world.
But hey, this isn't a business pitch to GW that will have demonstrable effect. It's Theoryhammer on Dakka. So let's just let people have a reasonable chat about how DG could be changed to compete with the new SM release, and what we would hope for in a similar Chaos release. If we can't pass our time in such ways, then, god help us, we might have to get back to painting our models.
Most armies could use a new codex now that space marines really raised the bar. Deathguard don't need it more than some other armies do. If GW actually wanted to do some changes out side a codex drop they would be able to really touch up a few armies and they'd be totally good for awhile yet, even with the new tone to codex drops if we are to take space marines to be.
I mean we'll see with the sisters codex, if that sucks or is just average I can't imagine the backlash people will have.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It could be argued that you didn’t ‘need’ a codex at all. That like every other faction excluding marines, your sub factions should be included in your primary and only codex. The same goes for TS.
Death Guard are pretty strong competitively. They have a number of very efficient units. I’d say there are more pressing codexes for GW to look at first and that DG will not and should not be top priority.
Deathguard are one of the most differant from the parent subfaction codices out there dude. they share some units in common yes but there's also a ton of differance.
that said I agree that Deathguard could proably wait, of the Marine subfactions the ones most in need of a new codex are Grey Knights and proably death watch (who need a new codex to get access to the Phobos stuff)
What? Those differences only exist because of the recent codex release at the start of this edition. Until then they were Nurgle plague marines. That was it.
Excluding Grey Knights, none of the Marine subfactions require a new codex. Deathwatch can have a pdf to allow Phobos stuff if it is considered balanced since we're literally still going through Marine supplement releases now. They can wait until another faction(s) has had something new.
Also looking forward to my Evil Sunz /Speed Freeks codex, given they are actually an in lore completely different sub faction compared to the parent codex.
I want a Militarum Tempestus codex again. All it needs is all the Militarum Tempestus units and all the units from the Advisors and Auxillia list. On that note, I wouldn’t care even if they removed Ogryns/Bullgryns and Ratlings from the list for the codex.
Dudeface wrote: Yes, 14 new kits is all it took to get death guard where they are, you are right though speed freaks don't need 14 new kits, because they're already fairly representable.
Irrelevant and completely missing the point.
Chaos in all flavours needed some attention going into the edition and you'd be hard pressed to deny that.
Compared to what? I deny it.
Orks need less love than many other factions as grey knights, custodes and harlies have a very limited range.
I'm not surprised that a faction that has existed as long as 40k has more models than those invented recently, one of which was released literally last year.
Guess who needs more love? Guess which faction has had none. That's right - Evil Sunz boiiii.
Sisters are getting an update around the corner, eldar & dark eldar are getting releases soon, there is talk of an ork release and all you can do is whine that marines got some expensive supplements and half a dozen kits.
The only thing more boring than marine releases are "why can't I have that, gw hates me" crusades.
It's like trying to have a conversation with a brick wall.
Here's my stance, since you clearly don't understand it; I find it incredible that factions of certain sub factions, that already have a unique codex, that (it could be argued) they didn't really need in the first place, are clamouring for a second codex. I think there are many other factions more deserving, my own (of course) included.
Weird, it feels the same from my side!
But on topic yes the death guard rapid fire rules are a bit weird an outdated now, so they need a little consideration but are still functional for now. Other books need a look in first.
Dudeface wrote: Yes, 14 new kits is all it took to get death guard where they are, you are right though speed freaks don't need 14 new kits, because they're already fairly representable.
Irrelevant and completely missing the point.
Chaos in all flavours needed some attention going into the edition and you'd be hard pressed to deny that.
Compared to what? I deny it.
Orks need less love than many other factions as grey knights, custodes and harlies have a very limited range.
I'm not surprised that a faction that has existed as long as 40k has more models than those invented recently, one of which was released literally last year.
Guess who needs more love? Guess which faction has had none. That's right - Evil Sunz boiiii.
Sisters are getting an update around the corner, eldar & dark eldar are getting releases soon, there is talk of an ork release and all you can do is whine that marines got some expensive supplements and half a dozen kits.
The only thing more boring than marine releases are "why can't I have that, gw hates me" crusades.
It's like trying to have a conversation with a brick wall.
Here's my stance, since you clearly don't understand it; I find it incredible that factions of certain sub factions, that already have a unique codex, that (it could be argued) they didn't really need in the first place, are clamouring for a second codex. I think there are many other factions more deserving, my own (of course) included.
Weird, it feels the same from my side!
But on topic yes the death guard rapid fire rules are a bit weird an outdated now, so they need a little consideration but are still functional for now. Other books need a look in first.
Geeze It's almost like everyone wants additional support for their armies. Who'd have thunk!
puma713 wrote: Chaos needs the same treatment the marines got. Parent codex with Chapter Supplements.
Yes this but it might be possible just with supplements. The key thing is to make each legion feel and play different not just be black legion painted differently. Dg already have this though they could use some updates. Personally I think many of the legion traits from 30k could be adapted for this. Like giving night lords the a talent for murder rule and making their raptors more like night raptors.
BrianDavion wrote: Geeze It's almost like everyone wants additional support for their armies. Who'd have thunk!
There is a slight difference between wanting an existing codex to be updated and insisting on creating a new sub-faction codex.
Glad you get it, I'm not fussed for a massive expansion or re-write of what I play, it doesn't need it.
I'm not fussed about inventing new factions overly, although there are some that need padding out a little.
Xenos do need some love, the eldar range is still ancient mostly, Harlequins is barely there (despite being an "old" army), then necrons and orks have some outdated kits that need a look in. But these aren't solved by inventing new supplements and codex "just because marine have it".
BrianDavion wrote: Geeze It's almost like everyone wants additional support for their armies. Who'd have thunk!
There is a slight difference between wanting an existing codex to be updated and insisting on creating a new sub-faction codex.
Glad you get it, I'm not fussed for a massive expansion or re-write of what I play, it doesn't need it.
I'm not fussed about inventing new factions overly, although there are some that need padding out a little.
Xenos do need some love, the eldar range is still ancient mostly, Harlequins is barely there (despite being an "old" army), then necrons and orks have some outdated kits that need a look in. But these aren't solved by inventing new supplements and codex "just because marine have it".
Dude just to be clear (because hopefully it'll help you see the other side of this discussion), I don't want a sub faction book 'just because marines have it', I want it because without it I feel that my faction just doesn't function as it should on the tabletop. Imagine if you were in this position? Your sub faction of choice just didn't work at all - the rules are vague and unfluffy, the army that you field is not representative of the fluff because you have no other choice or because the rules simply don't exist. It sucks.
Then on the other hand of the same argument is GW's resource. The best way I can describe the situation is by using a Street Fighter analogy. Marine factions are like Ryu and Ken. The same fighter (faction) but with very slight differences. GW keep making different skins of Ryu and Ken. First we had Chaos (Akuma), then Blood Angels (vampire Ryu), DA (secretive Ryu), Space Wolves (dog-cosplay Ken). Now we got all these subfaction codexes/supplements adding further 'skins'. Doesn't this sound insane? Why not branch out and do a wider variety of fighters? We don't need 15 versions of Ryu and Ken!
An Actual Englishman wrote: Dude just to be clear (because hopefully it'll help you see the other side of this discussion), I don't want a sub faction book 'just because marines have it', I want it because without it I feel that my faction just doesn't function as it should on the tabletop. Imagine if you were in this position? Your sub faction of choice just didn't work at all - the rules are vague and unfluffy, the army that you field is not representative of the fluff because you have no other choice or because the rules simply don't exist. It sucks.
... and can be fixed by giving evil suns a clan trait, warlord trait and relics which actually benefit fast multi-wound models, bringing back Wazzdakka (or equivalent) and adding 2-3 stratagems to support that playstyle to Codex:Orks 2.0 in November.
However, everything that applies tot he urgency of an new DG codex also applies to orks.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Dude just to be clear (because hopefully it'll help you see the other side of this discussion), I don't want a sub faction book 'just because marines have it', I want it because without it I feel that my faction just doesn't function as it should on the tabletop. Imagine if you were in this position? Your sub faction of choice just didn't work at all - the rules are vague and unfluffy, the army that you field is not representative of the fluff because you have no other choice or because the rules simply don't exist. It sucks.
... and can be fixed by giving evil suns a clan trait, warlord trait and relics which actually benefit fast multi-wound models, bringing back Wazzdakka (or equivalent) and adding 2-3 stratagems to support that playstyle to Codex:Orks 2.0 in November. .
More than 2-3 stratagems I think Jid. That's where the power is these days - we need a supplement's worth.
However, everything that applies tot he urgency of an new DG codex also applies to orks.
Agreed but I think its fair to say that DG smash Evil Sunz/Speed Freaks on the table so if we're going weaker factions first...
An Actual Englishman wrote: Dude just to be clear (because hopefully it'll help you see the other side of this discussion), I don't want a sub faction book 'just because marines have it', I want it because without it I feel that my faction just doesn't function as it should on the tabletop. Imagine if you were in this position? Your sub faction of choice just didn't work at all - the rules are vague and unfluffy, the army that you field is not representative of the fluff because you have no other choice or because the rules simply don't exist. It sucks.
... and can be fixed by giving evil suns a clan trait, warlord trait and relics which actually benefit fast multi-wound models, bringing back Wazzdakka (or equivalent) and adding 2-3 stratagems to support that playstyle to Codex:Orks 2.0 in November. .
More than 2-3 stratagems I think Jid. That's where the power is these days - we need a supplement's worth.
However, everything that applies tot he urgency of an new DG codex also applies to orks.
Agreed but I think its fair to say that DG smash Evil Sunz/Speed Freaks on the table so if we're going weaker factions first...
Don't know, if you go for two Thematic lists.
As for tournament type lists, frankly DG get all the few good units from Chaos and then the game looks alot diffrent.
Personally i find the supposed archetypes in dexes work too bad overall.
Take daemonengine lists f.e. Basically gw has not done enough to make them work imo.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Dude just to be clear (because hopefully it'll help you see the other side of this discussion), I don't want a sub faction book 'just because marines have it', I want it because without it I feel that my faction just doesn't function as it should on the tabletop. Imagine if you were in this position? Your sub faction of choice just didn't work at all - the rules are vague and unfluffy, the army that you field is not representative of the fluff because you have no other choice or because the rules simply don't exist. It sucks.
... and can be fixed by giving evil suns a clan trait, warlord trait and relics which actually benefit fast multi-wound models, bringing back Wazzdakka (or equivalent) and adding 2-3 stratagems to support that playstyle to Codex:Orks 2.0 in November. .
More than 2-3 stratagems I think Jid. That's where the power is these days - we need a supplement's worth.
However, everything that applies tot he urgency of an new DG codex also applies to orks.
Agreed but I think its fair to say that DG smash Evil Sunz/Speed Freaks on the table so if we're going weaker factions first...
GW has put a supplements worth of stratigums in campaign books before. namely the black Legion stuff in Vigilius ablaze. I'd absolutely like to see things like that. or even Index Astartes articles doing it, or yes supplements. but I understand that GW may be of the mind that a full supplement for some subfactions might not sell by itself but make a great WD article.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Dude just to be clear (because hopefully it'll help you see the other side of this discussion), I don't want a sub faction book 'just because marines have it', I want it because without it I feel that my faction just doesn't function as it should on the tabletop. Imagine if you were in this position? Your sub faction of choice just didn't work at all - the rules are vague and unfluffy, the army that you field is not representative of the fluff because you have no other choice or because the rules simply don't exist. It sucks.
... and can be fixed by giving evil suns a clan trait, warlord trait and relics which actually benefit fast multi-wound models, bringing back Wazzdakka (or equivalent) and adding 2-3 stratagems to support that playstyle to Codex:Orks 2.0 in November. .
More than 2-3 stratagems I think Jid. That's where the power is these days - we need a supplement's worth.
Most supplements boil down to 2-3 good stratagems buried in two pages of garbage anyways. Death Guard has five unique stratagems (two of those see competitive use), everything else is just a subset of codex CSM. Your Speed Freeks have Drive-By Krumpin', Snagga Grapple and Exhaust Clouds from the codex and Charge Through 'em and Turbo-Boostas from vigilus, plus all of the parent faction's stratagems (unlike DG). I'm not sure a Speed Freeks psychic discipline would make sense fluff-wise, but it could be awesome - you'd loose da jump though. Which leaves relics and warlord traits, and I don't think orks have lots of great options here and both the redder armor and the snazztrike are decent relics.
However, everything that applies tot he urgency of an new DG codex also applies to orks.
Agreed but I think its fair to say that DG smash Evil Sunz/Speed Freaks on the table so if we're going weaker factions first...
Your faction is Orks. Orks smash Death Guard on the table. Your sub-faction is Evil Suns, which have just have had a major part in winning a large tournament two weeks ago, just like Death Guard have had part in multiple top chaos placings. Evil Sunz Speed Freeks are as much a faction as Dark Angels Deathwing or Ravenwing are, both are a defining part of the Dark Angels codex and should never get their own.
The issue right now is that the units that make up the Speed Freeks are neither particularly powerful, cheap or durable, which is something that needs to be addressed. If GW fails to do that, it doesn't matter whether they print those rules in their own book or in the existing codex. I'm sure all the White Scars players with cases full of marine bikes agree.
BrianDavion wrote: Geeze It's almost like everyone wants additional support for their armies. Who'd have thunk!
There is a slight difference between wanting an existing codex to be updated and insisting on creating a new sub-faction codex.
Glad you get it, I'm not fussed for a massive expansion or re-write of what I play, it doesn't need it.
I'm not fussed about inventing new factions overly, although there are some that need padding out a little.
Xenos do need some love, the eldar range is still ancient mostly, Harlequins is barely there (despite being an "old" army), then necrons and orks have some outdated kits that need a look in. But these aren't solved by inventing new supplements and codex "just because marine have it".
Dude just to be clear (because hopefully it'll help you see the other side of this discussion), I don't want a sub faction book 'just because marines have it', I want it because without it I feel that my faction just doesn't function as it should on the tabletop. Imagine if you were in this position? Your sub faction of choice just didn't work at all - the rules are vague and unfluffy, the army that you field is not representative of the fluff because you have no other choice or because the rules simply don't exist. It sucks.
Then on the other hand of the same argument is GW's resource. The best way I can describe the situation is by using a Street Fighter analogy. Marine factions are like Ryu and Ken. The same fighter (faction) but with very slight differences. GW keep making different skins of Ryu and Ken. First we had Chaos (Akuma), then Blood Angels (vampire Ryu), DA (secretive Ryu), Space Wolves (dog-cosplay Ken). Now we got all these subfaction codexes/supplements adding further 'skins'. Doesn't this sound insane? Why not branch out and do a wider variety of fighters? We don't need 15 versions of Ryu and Ken!
I agree actually, partly due to being in the same boat. I didn't get even evil sunz level of support until vigilus 2 for my red corsairs. Even then a legion trait of extra cp for reasons and run and charge, both useful but neither scream renegade pirate to me.
Never mind the sudden inability to raid and use razor backs or drop pods etc. Arguably they'd benefit from a supplement to remove some demonic stuff and add some marine stuff back in.
I get that there are too many marine books in comparison to some xenos factions, but they are the protagonists of the narrative. I'd also prefer more new factions to red marines or black eldar or yellow orks or whatever. If we want bigger subfaction diversity they need to bake them in better to the root books for some factions. The point we disagree on is what can or can't be represented with that process. But I firmly believe everyone thinks their faction could be better represented.
I think its clear that GW made the 1ksons and DG codex due to the presence of the respective primarchs. Rumours have been around for quite some time that Angron and Fulgrim are sculpted so I am sure we will see those codexes with splash primarch releases at some time in the future.
I've been running DG and find the book to still be holding its own in casual games and the meta creep has been kind to DG but its no longer competitive. I'm now switching to chaos soup with Mortarion, deathshroud and Lord discordants with a chaos knight.
I still think Morty is competitive with blades and miasma and warptiming deathshroud for turn 2 blending has some play but without warptime Morty is no good.
When I was playing mono DG even with 8CP I was rarely using any of the book strats. Only occasionally auto explode vehicles in opportunistic situations but I used my CP for re-rolls and interrupt melee. We need more/better strats.
I think it'd be nice because of the lack of bolter discipline and shock assault, it's not great that this is just an errata IMO. If Death Guard got an update I feel like it would be neat if DR was replaced with an ability that did not require a roll.
Remove DR from vehicles and monsters and give them 50% more wounds. Add 1 to the toughness characteristic of units with DR against weapons with a damage characteristic of 1 or something similar. I'd release this at the same time as a TS update shortly after WE and EC supplements or codexes were released and remove the Sv modifier for TS against D1 weapons because that's uncharacteristic of TS. Rubrics can have a 2+ Sv for all I care, but them having a weakness to multi-damage weapons is new and I don't like it.
Balance is totally borked for the next couple of months. I'd like to see -1 M for enemies that face purely Nurgle armies and then add another bonus level to Inexorable Advance as the Loyalists have with their doctrine specialization for successors of each specific legion. As far as Stratagem balance, I guess they need a buff to keep up with SM...? I really don't like the new level of balance SM have been taken to and would prefer nerfing SM.
While I would LOVE my army to get a new codex, I really think that most of the problems with Death Guard can be fixed in CA. Point drops for troops, let vehicles have DR or Inexorable Advance, give DR to generic Lords and Sorcerers, etc.
TBH though I think Daemons need WAY more love. Outside of troops and cheap HQs, they really don't have a lot going for them.
Deathguard went from a lore and a couopel fo nits to a full codex so its seems highly disenengious to decide and declare that non-Marine factions should not be allowed to have the same treatment.
I really like my Nurgle marines but i don't think they should leapfrog (again) all those who need it more - along with the model release that so many non Marine factions are lacking.
Deathguard went from a lore and a couopel fo nits to a full codex so its seems highly disenengious to decide and declare that non-Marine factions should not be allowed to have the same treatment.
I really like my Nurgle marines but i don't think they should leapfrog (again) all those who need it more - along with the model release that so many non Marine factions are lacking.
Consider how little effort is needed. Another 15 Stratagems, half of which you can copy-paste from the Vigilus books, maybe another 6-8 Relics, half of which can be copy-pasted into future CSM releases, a couple of army-wide buffs and a re-balanced pts, maybe allow them to use the Warptime discipline. How about Necrons? Datasheets need to be updated, 75 Stratagems, 36 WL traits, 100 Relics, a mono-faction benefit, five sub-faction bonus benefits, maybe another 4 or 6 new sub-factions or sub-faction generation rules, maybe 6-30 more C'tan personalities or powers. I don't like the SM codex and its supplements from a design or balance stand-point but the sheer scale of the project is impressive. Had GW focussed all that effort on balance the game would have been so-so great in a couple of months. But I am pessimistic, which also leaves an opportunity for GW to surprise me and get my money, but I'm not going to invest until GW fixes their game.
Deathguard went from a lore and a couopel fo nits to a full codex so its seems highly disenengious to decide and declare that non-Marine factions should not be allowed to have the same treatment.
I really like my Nurgle marines but i don't think they should leapfrog (again) all those who need it more - along with the model release that so many non Marine factions are lacking.
Consider how little effort is needed. Another 15 Stratagems, half of which you can copy-paste from the Vigilus books, maybe another 6-8 Relics, half of which can be copy-pasted into future CSM releases, a couple of army-wide buffs and a re-balanced pts, maybe allow them to use the Warptime discipline. How about Necrons? Datasheets need to be updated, 75 Stratagems, 36 WL traits, 100 Relics, a mono-faction benefit, five sub-faction bonus benefits, maybe another 4 or 6 new sub-factions or sub-faction generation rules, maybe 6-30 more C'tan personalities or powers. I don't like the SM codex and its supplements from a design or balance stand-point but the sheer scale of the project is impressive. Had GW focussed all that effort on balance the game would have been so-so great in a couple of months. But I am pessimistic, which also leaves an opportunity for GW to surprise me and get my money, but I'm not going to invest until GW fixes their game.
If its that little effort - then it should be a pdf update or at most a White Dwarf update - certainly not the massive cost of producing a Codex that means someone else can't have one.
Mr Morden wrote: If its that little effort - then it should be a pdf update or at most a White Dwarf update - certainly not the massive cost of producing a Codex that means someone else can't have one.
White Dwarf updates are horrible, horrible things. I played a game against a Ynnari player using the old rules many months after the WD update because he didn't think the new ones were official since GW hadn't errata'd Index Xenos 1 and it made into a codex. The game was fine, but if you're this far out of touch I think the codex needs a physical update. What I'd have actually preferred is nobody getting new codices and no new rules being printed, but a lot of people seem to think that Iron Hands or Ultramarines having 0 Veterans is fluffy as long as IH are tough and shooty and UM are resourceful. I don't know why it would take as much time to release a single update for Death Guard as making 6 updates for Necrons unless you want to do a really low-effort job with Necrons (I don't think GW will do anything, so a low-effort update would be good enough I suppose).
Mr Morden wrote: If its that little effort - then it should be a pdf update or at most a White Dwarf update - certainly not the massive cost of producing a Codex that means someone else can't have one.
White Dwarf updates are horrible, horrible things. I played a game against a Ynnari player using the old rules many months after the WD update because he didn't think the new ones were official since GW hadn't errata'd Index Xenos 1 and it made into a codex. The game was fine, but if you're this far out of touch I think the codex needs a physical update. What I'd have actually preferred is nobody getting new codices and no new rules being printed, but a lot of people seem to think that Iron Hands or Ultramarines having 0 Veterans is fluffy as long as IH are tough and shooty and UM are resourceful. I don't know why it would take as much time to release a single update for Death Guard as making 6 updates for Necrons unless you want to do a really low-effort job with Necrons (I don't think GW will do anything, so a low-effort update would be good enough I suppose).
And if the full codex re-do is carried out for Deathguard...and Thousand Sons...and Blood Angels...and Wolves ..rather than just tweeking what needs to be done.
I can't see GW making another full Codex without models - why do you think its needs the huge effort of a full Codex release? All these things drain the limited resources away from anything other than Marines....
Mr Morden wrote: If its that little effort - then it should be a pdf update or at most a White Dwarf update - certainly not the massive cost of producing a Codex that means someone else can't have one.
White Dwarf updates are horrible, horrible things. I played a game against a Ynnari player using the old rules many months after the WD update because he didn't think the new ones were official since GW hadn't errata'd Index Xenos 1 and it made into a codex. The game was fine, but if you're this far out of touch I think the codex needs a physical update. What I'd have actually preferred is nobody getting new codices and no new rules being printed, but a lot of people seem to think that Iron Hands or Ultramarines having 0 Veterans is fluffy as long as IH are tough and shooty and UM are resourceful. I don't know why it would take as much time to release a single update for Death Guard as making 6 updates for Necrons unless you want to do a really low-effort job with Necrons (I don't think GW will do anything, so a low-effort update would be good enough I suppose).
And if the full codex re-do is carried out for Deathguard...and Thousand Sons...and Blood Angels...and Wolves ..rather than just tweeking what needs to be done.
I can't see GW making another full Codex without models - why do you think its needs the huge effort of a full Codex release? All these things drain the limited resources away from anything other than Marines....
ignoring death guard and 1k sons for a moment, blood angels and space wolves just got a fairly chunky model release in the form of this latest phobos release. that means right now space wolves, blood angels and dark angels have access to 9 full datasheets thats not in their codex. that alone would be reason eneugh for a 2.0 update. and I suspect it'll eventually happen, however you're right that GW will likely not do it without any sort of model release, my guess is they'll put out a character for each of the marine books release it along side a 2.0 'dex and that'll be it. it'll happen but not nesscarily immediatly, consider how long it took space wolves to get their codex (and they didn't even get a Lt. for their trouble except for one in a boxed set)
Mr Morden wrote: If its that little effort - then it should be a pdf update or at most a White Dwarf update - certainly not the massive cost of producing a Codex that means someone else can't have one.
White Dwarf updates are horrible, horrible things. I played a game against a Ynnari player using the old rules many months after the WD update because he didn't think the new ones were official since GW hadn't errata'd Index Xenos 1 and it made into a codex.
Ignoring the fact that your opponent was delusional, I am surprised to note that there was no update to the Index: Xenos FAQ document with the Ynnari in to say that the WD update supersedes Index Xenos.
Though the Ynnari Index article does have its own FAQ document now. Hopefully that material will see a reprint in CA2019, just so it is readily available in an "official" book.
All I can say is that it was...underwhelming watching the Death Guard get wiped off the table by Iron Hands in the recent TTT battle report. That's obviously more an Iron Hands issue than a Death Guard one - but seeing the "tough" army just absolutely blitzed off the table was...saddening.
Elbows wrote: All I can say is that it was...underwhelming watching the Death Guard get wiped off the table by Iron Hands in the recent TTT battle report. That's obviously more an Iron Hands issue than a Death Guard one - but seeing the "tough" army just absolutely blitzed off the table was...saddening.
well Iron Hands take what makes deathguard good and makes it even better. I mean GW wouldn't give a FNP roll to every deathguard unit but happily gave it to iron hands.
Elbows wrote: All I can say is that it was...underwhelming watching the Death Guard get wiped off the table by Iron Hands in the recent TTT battle report. That's obviously more an Iron Hands issue than a Death Guard one - but seeing the "tough" army just absolutely blitzed off the table was...saddening.
well Iron Hands take what makes deathguard good and makes it even better. I mean GW wouldn't give a FNP roll to every deathguard unit but happily gave it to iron hands.
The Ironhands FnP is a 6+ only. Disgustingly resilient is the best FnP on the game usually reserved for relics. Also Ironhands blast anything and everything off the table, it makes little difference what faction opposes them.
Elbows wrote: All I can say is that it was...underwhelming watching the Death Guard get wiped off the table by Iron Hands in the recent TTT battle report. That's obviously more an Iron Hands issue than a Death Guard one - but seeing the "tough" army just absolutely blitzed off the table was...saddening.
well Iron Hands take what makes deathguard good and makes it even better. I mean GW wouldn't give a FNP roll to every deathguard unit but happily gave it to iron hands.
The Ironhands FnP is a 6+ only. Disgustingly resilient is the best FnP on the game usually reserved for relics. Also Ironhands blast anything and everything off the table, it makes little difference what faction opposes them.
maybe it is kinda annoying not having it on everything though, doubly so since the death guard lord with DR just has such crap equipment.
Elbows wrote: All I can say is that it was...underwhelming watching the Death Guard get wiped off the table by Iron Hands in the recent TTT battle report. That's obviously more an Iron Hands issue than a Death Guard one - but seeing the "tough" army just absolutely blitzed off the table was...saddening.
well Iron Hands take what makes deathguard good and makes it even better. I mean GW wouldn't give a FNP roll to every deathguard unit but happily gave it to iron hands.
The Ironhands FnP is a 6+ only. Disgustingly resilient is the best FnP on the game usually reserved for relics. Also Ironhands blast anything and everything off the table, it makes little difference what faction opposes them.
maybe it is kinda annoying not having it on everything though, doubly so since the death guard lord with DR just has such crap equipment.
No doubt. But does a faction 'need' a new codex for a datasheet update? Doubtful. There's also tons of examples where GW misses rules interactions like this. Also if the DG Lord is to become more resilient, he'll need a points increase.
He is talking about Lords of Contagion which are completely useless right now.
Those need a reason to exist - I think just slapping the Lord of Nurgle aura on them is a great idea.
Mr Morden wrote: If its that little effort - then it should be a pdf update or at most a White Dwarf update - certainly not the massive cost of producing a Codex that means someone else can't have one.
White Dwarf updates are horrible, horrible things. I played a game against a Ynnari player using the old rules many months after the WD update because he didn't think the new ones were official since GW hadn't errata'd Index Xenos 1 and it made into a codex.
Ignoring the fact that your opponent was delusional, I am surprised to note that there was no update to the Index: Xenos FAQ document with the Ynnari in to say that the WD update supersedes Index Xenos.
Though the Ynnari Index article does have its own FAQ document now. Hopefully that material will see a reprint in CA2019, just so it is readily available in an "official" book.
Well, looks like the Ynnari Index reprint is in Firechicken Rising, rather than CA, which at least means it is out a little sooner.
Xenos players need to realise that we are not factions in our own right like Chaos and the Imperium but just a selection of villanous foils for the true protagonists of the game (power armoured humans) to fight in between fighting each other. Our rules don't matter, our models don't matter. We're just extras in the background of the story being told about superhumans in power armour fighting other superhumans in power armour, an infinite variety of them with rules for every specific quirk and oddity.
Just accept it. It has been like that for 5 editions now. Sometimes they let Eldar be the "powerful" Xenos, but Orks and Necrons and Tau are always gonna be the buttmonkeys of the setting, with Tyranids yapping excited off to one side, only ever powerful if they play lists that go entirely against their background.
That is how Warhammer 40000 is designed, and it is righteous punishment for Xenos players being so STUPID as to pick something that is not a Space Marine, a Space Marine with Spikes On or at best another type of human.
Necrons were pretty powerful at the start of 7th when they got their Decurion. Tau were powerful in 6th as well, and very powerful in 4th due to Fish of Fury... Elder were strong in 4th and 6th, and I'm not sure when they petered off in 7th, but they had powerful Wraithknights..
The international release of Space Marine Heroes 2 ended up giving Space Marines an actual new datasheet, the ancient in terminator armor. Space Marine Heroes 3 could very well do the same for Death Guard, like a real Death Guard Chaos Lord with DR.
dsraider1 wrote: The international release of Space Marine Heroes 2 ended up giving Space Marines an actual new datasheet, the ancient in terminator armor. Space Marine Heroes 3 could very well do the same for Death Guard, like a real Death Guard Chaos Lord with DR.
Which was a generic entry long overdue to the point of silliness.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Necrons were pretty powerful at the start of 7th when they got their Decurion. Tau were powerful in 6th as well, and very powerful in 4th due to Fish of Fury... Elder were strong in 4th and 6th, and I'm not sure when they petered off in 7th, but they had powerful Wraithknights..
Just saying, the balance in 40k tends to waver.
Indeed. prior to the Traitor Legions Expansion at the end of 7th CSM were one of the weakest factions for about 3 editions and also one of the least supported ones while DE, Necrons got an overhaul, and Tau and Tyranids were drowned in Plastic releases. It's only since the end of 7th that Chaos cought up with Xenos releases.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Necrons were pretty powerful at the start of 7th when they got their Decurion. Tau were powerful in 6th as well, and very powerful in 4th due to Fish of Fury... Elder were strong in 4th and 6th, and I'm not sure when they petered off in 7th, but they had powerful Wraithknights..
Just saying, the balance in 40k tends to waver.
Indeed. prior to the Traitor Legions Expansion at the end of 7th CSM were one of the weakest factions for about 3 editions and also one of the least supported ones while DE, Necrons got an overhaul, and Tau and Tyranids were drowned in Plastic releases. It's only since the end of 7th that Chaos cought up with Xenos releases.
And, for all its flaws, the Legions supplement did a lot to elevate them and show off some pretty darn unique rules. Granted some of the execution left a lot to be desired (Death Guard being over the top, World Eaters and Word Bearers lagging behind), but it at least felt correct for the whole army.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Necrons were pretty powerful at the start of 7th when they got their Decurion. Tau were powerful in 6th as well, and very powerful in 4th due to Fish of Fury... Elder were strong in 4th and 6th, and I'm not sure when they petered off in 7th, but they had powerful Wraithknights..
Just saying, the balance in 40k tends to waver.
Indeed. prior to the Traitor Legions Expansion at the end of 7th CSM were one of the weakest factions for about 3 editions and also one of the least supported ones while DE, Necrons got an overhaul, and Tau and Tyranids were drowned in Plastic releases. It's only since the end of 7th that Chaos cought up with Xenos releases.
And, for all its flaws, the Legions supplement did a lot to elevate them and show off some pretty darn unique rules. Granted some of the execution left a lot to be desired (Death Guard being over the top, World Eaters and Word Bearers lagging behind), but it at least felt correct for the whole army.
All nice and Dandy, but personally i still miss mortal Chaos armies.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Necrons were pretty powerful at the start of 7th when they got their Decurion. Tau were powerful in 6th as well, and very powerful in 4th due to Fish of Fury... Elder were strong in 4th and 6th, and I'm not sure when they petered off in 7th, but they had powerful Wraithknights..
Just saying, the balance in 40k tends to waver.
Indeed. prior to the Traitor Legions Expansion at the end of 7th CSM were one of the weakest factions for about 3 editions and also one of the least supported ones while DE, Necrons got an overhaul, and Tau and Tyranids were drowned in Plastic releases. It's only since the end of 7th that Chaos cought up with Xenos releases.
And, for all its flaws, the Legions supplement did a lot to elevate them and show off some pretty darn unique rules. Granted some of the execution left a lot to be desired (Death Guard being over the top, World Eaters and Word Bearers lagging behind), but it at least felt correct for the whole army.
All nice and Dandy, but personally i still miss mortal Chaos armies.
Like a broken record saying Renegade Space Marines should be handled in the main vanilla codex, we could theoretically do the same thing with R&H via switching of keywords in the AM codex. When you think about it, a lot of stuff can be covered by other means, like Spawn-ish units being handled by the Ogryn entry for example.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Necrons were pretty powerful at the start of 7th when they got their Decurion. Tau were powerful in 6th as well, and very powerful in 4th due to Fish of Fury... Elder were strong in 4th and 6th, and I'm not sure when they petered off in 7th, but they had powerful Wraithknights..
Just saying, the balance in 40k tends to waver.
Indeed. prior to the Traitor Legions Expansion at the end of 7th CSM were one of the weakest factions for about 3 editions and also one of the least supported ones while DE, Necrons got an overhaul, and Tau and Tyranids were drowned in Plastic releases. It's only since the end of 7th that Chaos cought up with Xenos releases.
And, for all its flaws, the Legions supplement did a lot to elevate them and show off some pretty darn unique rules. Granted some of the execution left a lot to be desired (Death Guard being over the top, World Eaters and Word Bearers lagging behind), but it at least felt correct for the whole army.
All nice and Dandy, but personally i still miss mortal Chaos armies.
Careful, you are starting to become the Karol of R&H
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Necrons were pretty powerful at the start of 7th when they got their Decurion. Tau were powerful in 6th as well, and very powerful in 4th due to Fish of Fury... Elder were strong in 4th and 6th, and I'm not sure when they petered off in 7th, but they had powerful Wraithknights..
Just saying, the balance in 40k tends to waver.
Indeed. prior to the Traitor Legions Expansion at the end of 7th CSM were one of the weakest factions for about 3 editions and also one of the least supported ones while DE, Necrons got an overhaul, and Tau and Tyranids were drowned in Plastic releases. It's only since the end of 7th that Chaos cought up with Xenos releases.
And, for all its flaws, the Legions supplement did a lot to elevate them and show off some pretty darn unique rules. Granted some of the execution left a lot to be desired (Death Guard being over the top, World Eaters and Word Bearers lagging behind), but it at least felt correct for the whole army.
All nice and Dandy, but personally i still miss mortal Chaos armies.
Careful, you are starting to become the Karol of R&H
considering how big a part mortal fodder is supposedly playing, even in the books the lack off a propper useable ruleset is quite hillarious imo.
Especially in consideration of what warrants nowadays a codex. (rainbows marine supplements >everything else)
