It would seem that we're about to turn full circle with the recent announcement that Warhammer Fantasy is returning. I'm casually thinking about writing a short timeline with key events along the way that lead up to the demise of WHFB and the splitting of the community, as a quick shorthand for the future. It would be something like this, though I'd appreciate if you could help me out by pinning years onto the earlier events in particular, and chip in with possible other milestones.
- Games Workshop (GW) loses the costly Chapterhouse Studio court case, triggering its CEO Tom Kirby to look critically at GW's IP (though with a faulty understanding of intellectual property laws) in order to cut away the most generic and historically based aspects to protect it from competitors. Warhammer Fantasy Battles (WHFB), already performing poorly financially, is deemed a lost cause. The setting and wargame are ordered to be replaced with something more IP-secure, over the studio's protests.
- Games Workshop announce that they are a miniature company, in response to criticism over issues of wargame rules, not least regarding balance or lack thereof.
- Creative Assembly (CA) gains the right to produce Total War: Warhammer games.
- The Swedish Composition System (SCS) is launched to account for the worst excesses of rules imbalance in WHFB. Sweden, being peripheral in the hobby, has a thin presence of Games Workshop stores and has seen no tournaments hosted by Games Workshop for many years. Its community is as a result already independently minded. The SCS is adopted internationally by various tournaments.
2015 - Games Workshop launches the End Times, a series of four campaign books with miniature releases set to conclude story arcs in a hitherto static setting and end WHFB. The End Times create a surge of interest and activity among hobbyists while the event lasts.
2015 - Games Workshop replaces WHFB (until then a monolith dominating its niche) by launching Age of Sigmar (AoS), a setting designed to not be generic nor historically based fantasy for IP reasons. This ending of much-beloved and immersive Warhammer Fantasy Battles (1983-2015) results in the first ever huge split in its community (Oldhammer movement notwithstanding), and a collapse in the numbers of active hobbyists. The initial version of Age of Sigmar rules are very short and are launched without a points system. Existing tournaments such as European Team Championship (ETC) reject the non-competitive rules and continue to play WHFB's 8th edition for a while.
2015 - Mantic Games announce that all those who played WHFB will find a home for all their respective armies in its fantasy wargame Kings of War (KoW). The coming years will see many different companies attempt to fill out the void of the massed fantasy wargame niche left behind by GW's withdrawal of WHFB, including among others Osprey Games' Oathmark and Dragon Rampant, and A Song of Ice & Fire Tabletop Game.
2015 - Tom Kirby resigns as CEO of Games Workshop. He is replaced by Kevin Rountree, who himself play wargames and have insights into what customers want. Rountree will launch a number of new initiatives to invigorate Games Workshop, not least in the marketing department. One early reform is the introduction of a points system to Age of Sigmar, which goes on to become a commercial success that attracts both old and new players. Yet Warhammer Fantasy remains missed, and some continue to play its old editions.
2016 - Creative Assembly release Total War: Warhammer. A surge of new interest in its setting and accompanying tabletop wargame are met in GW stores with the news that WHFB has been ended and replaced with AoS. CA will continue to release new instalments to Total War: Warhammer, both of an acclaimed high standard and true to the setting. The computer games are a commercial success.
- The community-driven wargame the Ninth Age (T9A) is launched. Several of those previously involved in the Swedish Composition System are part of its large crew. The Ninth Age summarize all armies found in WHFB by including units not supported in later editions, and develops a rule set aimed for competitive balance. The Ninth Age develops the most balanced rank & file fantasy wargame seen to date, yet it will have problems reaching out to casual wargamers, while others find issue with T9A developing its own setting instead of being an unofficial WHFB fan project. Nevertheless the Ninth Age quickly becomes the largest community-developed fantasy wargame following the cancellation of WHFB. Many of the small fantasy miniature producers sign up as supporting companies of T9A.
2019 - Games Workshop announce that they will bring back Warhammer Fantasy to tabletop within the coming 2-3 years. The news spread through fantasy wargaming communities like wildfire, a testament to Warhammer Fantasy's enduring allure and immersion attained from over 30 years of development by many learned minds and skilled hands. Excitement and interest are shown by many hobbyists who have been inactive since the End Times.
I wonder how kicked-in-the-nuts Mantic feels. They just announce their coming 3rd edition of Kings of War, and now GW throws this into the air. Probably will hurt their sales
cuda1179 wrote: I wonder how kicked-in-the-nuts Mantic feels. They just announce their coming 3rd edition of Kings of War, and now GW throws this into the air. Probably will hurt their sales
It will probably do the opposite (i.e. be good for Mantic). Warhammer generates interest in rank and file, but wholesale Warhammer is not available yet, and models are limited to 2h ebay armies or alternatives (like KOW). While perhaps not the majority, a handful of people who pick up some KOW minis in the meantime may delve into the system before WH is released, and either way Mantic get some sales.
Are you sure about this chapter house thing ? They may have lost it but destroying WFB because they lost it seems...huge.
And I never heard about SCS, was it popular in America ?
godardc wrote: Are you sure about this chapter house thing ? They may have lost it but destroying WFB because they lost it seems...huge.
And I never heard about SCS, was it popular in America ?
Chapterhouse is huge,and was even more so . There is a reason why alot of hq choices just vanished and or units.
Future War Cultist wrote: So is old school fantasy going to sit alongside AoS? How’s this going to work in practice?
Same way Lord of the Rings sits alongside AoS now along with any 3rd party competing games; and the same as Horus Heresy sits alongside AoS.
Honestly there's a lot of "GW can only run one fantasy game" panic going around which is rather bemusing. Right now it looks like GW is going to have AoS as their core game and then a side game of Old World. If you look at Horus Heresy it hardly resulted in the end of 40K.
2000-2006, 6th Edition Warhammer is released with a re-worked rules set and army list booklet to have all armies on the same level, going from a more RPG/Hero focused game to a troop focused one.
It becomes the dominant TableTop tournament game in a lot of countries (replacing Battletech in some, which already struggled in the late 90ies because of unliked changes to the game)
2006-2010, during early 7th Edition GW declines/refuses to give official FAQ/Errata with a "we don't make mistakes" statement, leading to different community comps.
"Lore of Akito" is the dominant Community Comp in German Speaking countries and compensating most flaws of Warhammer by that time (including FAQ/Errata for armies not updated by GW).
It is replaced by SCS after ETC uses it in 8th.
2009, a disappointed Alessio Cavatore starts creating Kings of War after the statement "that he can write a much better game on 20 pages total if GW would give him some freedom in development" was heard by Ronni Renton from Mantic Games in a pub.
2009, GW released War of the Rings, a R&F Ruleset to be used with their LotR models, considered by some people the better Fantasy game by that time and attracts Warhammer players who stayed away from the Skirmish game before
2015, LotR is hit by GW's "double the price half the box" strategy to maximize profits (literally, former 24 model boxes were replaced by 12 model boxes for double the price of the old box) but unlike the Warhammer Community, LotR gamers did not stayed loyal to GW and the game was basically dead over night.
2016, after Kirby resigned (and AoS fails) AoS gets a major update making a community comp official and changes the game from the ground up
2018, 2nd Edition AoS is released
2019, 3rd Edition Kings of War was released, again with a main book and a dupplement compatible with former Warhammer Armies
I think you need to go back to Storm of Chaos for a lot of the rift. If I recall, it was supposed to be a worldwide event where the fans determined the outcome...which GW sabotaged to maintain the status quo. However, the fiction written after this advanced the story, and was highly regarded. Popular characters died. The setting changed. This is the first time I can remember the story/setting split among the fandom.
Then, a few years later, GW retconned it so the Storm of Chaos never happened. Then they introduced Storm of Magic and a bunch of other changes to the lore. Meanwhile, Black Library were adding hints of a deeper lore and overarching story that generated a lot of discussion in background circles. FW were releasing some kind of end times scenario book series (written in part by Priestley, I think), and the reception was divisive to say the least. I'm not sure if they ever released more than one book for that series.
There were also cascading rules-writing failures throughout 7th and 8th that lead to the very vocal "stop adding new things and balance it all perfectly first!!!" faction. Combine that with the infamous Gold$word$ era price hikes, and the fandom became very toxic. WHFB was in an unrecoverable spiral before they blew up the Old World, and it was entirely preventable.
At work so can't really link to the tweets, but here's some copy paste.
Spoiler:
From a GW parody account:
Thanks for reminding us that our blown up, cast-aside-into-the-garbage-bin material still ends up more popular than your best work.
Random twitter users:
And you create dogshit models too! Good work!
Very funny, but also no
Someone needs to wind their neck in
At Mantic HQ : A .gif of the "It's Fine" dog in a burning building.
A Scarlet Witch/Thanos Endgame meme : Mantic(Scarlet Witch): "You will take everything from me!" Warhammer: The Old World(Thanos): "I don't even know who you are"
Another Marvel .gif. Looks like a Krull saying: "Who are you, again? And why should I care."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, not at all unbiased right here:
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: The Ninth Age develops the most balanced rank & file fantasy wargame seen to date,
Not a fan of KoW or T9A, but just from following both communities because of hobby, I'd say KoW has T9A beat when it comes to balance, IMO.And thats not mentioning any of the smaller ones who have tried to fill the void left by WHFB.
Mantic may have missed its chance. They've always been held back by terrible models. GW produces overly busy and overly expensive miniatures...but Mantic just doesn't deliver the goods on most of their miniatures. Mantic can only make so much money selling a rulebook. There are a lot of other companies out there now producing quality plastic fantasy miniatures - though mostly in a more toned down, Tolkien-esque style. Very LOTR or Game of Thrones, etc.
Mantic used to sell underwhelming miniatures because they were dirt cheap - the prices haven't stayed that way. What they need is a serious new sculptor line-up and a revamp of their core aesthetic. It would help tremendously.
If GW is actually going to re-released WFB...I don't know how it will fare. Will AoS lose attention/model releases? Will the games compete with each other? Will models be usable in both games? WFB was a failed product line previously, will this happen again and put a nail in the coffin? Will GW try to sell 10 Empire Spearmen for $60 when the game required regiments of 20-30 models etc. Will they bring back the Old World merely for board games and skirmish games, etc. I'd argue that aside from selling models, this'll be the biggest gamble GW has taken in a long time. If they cock it up, it'll kill the Old World stone-dead. Even more so than it is currently. If sales don't carry it...it'll be bad news.
WHF failed because of rules bloat, ridiculous model costs (due to you needing so many to field an army). But i'd say the main issue for me when the game was alive would be the rules. It was always a bit 'much' I would say. With the success of Warcry and other simpler games it seems like people might prefer a more lean ruleset. One of the reasons I prefer bolt action over 40k is the same reason. Lean rules, still feels thematic. But 40k borders on trying to be a simulator, including rules for everything imaginable and it all stacks up and feels overwhelming to me. (like sob miracle dice, just more stuff to keep track of annoying me).
I think if they bring back WHF they need to find a way to make the game more accessible and affordable than it was.
The problem Mantic has isn't just the quality of sculpt its the whole design ethos of them. They feel like they are 20 odd years back in design style; which I'm sure fills a specific niche in the market, just possibly not as large a one as more "modern" designs would have. Which is a shame because a good few of their armies have some really neat concepts behind them that I'd be interested in.
The other issue is that they've made themselves more of a rules system than a game system, whch is bad for their miniature sales because loads of people make that one purchase of the Kings of War rulebook and then, instead of buying up miniatures, they are using GW or any other brand of model.
Mantic is almost like a 5-15mm game company trying to work in the 28mm market.
I've thought that for a long time. The window was open from the time that it was apparent that WHFB was being killed off to the point where GW finally gave AoS points in the first Generals Handbook. Once GHB1 dropped, GW has kept their foot on the pedal. I always felt that Mantic's lack of urgency was either a belief that the RNF market wasn't worth aggressively pursuing or that they just felt AoS would never recover from its disastrous launch and all they had to do was wait for folks to come to them. I think even T9A was smoking KoW on tourney attendance for a short while before it started its current decline.
I admit I'd more readily throw money at Mantic and play KoW than anything GW has or will write....but I'll be damned if I use Mantic's sub-par miniatures.
Thargrim wrote: WHF failed because of rules bloat, ridiculous model costs (due to you needing so many to field an army). But i'd say the main issue for me when the game was alive would be the rules. It was always a bit 'much' I would say. With the success of Warcry and other simpler games it seems like people might prefer a more lean ruleset. One of the reasons I prefer bolt action over 40k is the same reason. Lean rules, still feels thematic. But 40k borders on trying to be a simulator, including rules for everything imaginable and it all stacks up and feels overwhelming to me. (like sob miracle dice, just more stuff to keep track of annoying me).
I think if they bring back WHF they need to find a way to make the game more accessible and affordable than it was.
Not just rules bloat, but complexity and definite issues in rule interactions, and very real problems with "losing at deployment". . . I played one game of Fantasy with my Ogre Kingdoms, and it wasn't even the final edition (I think), and that experience largely put me off the entire fantasy concept, even though I definitely liked more of the models in the fantasy range than I did 40k at the time.
Elbows wrote:Mantic may have missed its chance. They've always been held back by terrible models.
Overread wrote:The problem Mantic has isn't just the quality of sculpt its the whole design ethos of them.
I am still surprised that the main argument against a game that makes clear that you can use whatever miniatures you like, are the bad models
Maybe this is the main problem for KoW since the start, that people did not get that the early product line as cheap models alternative to GW, and the game Kings of War, as better balanced alternative to Warhammer, were not really related.
Of course this changed as soon as Mantic realised that people decline KoW because of the "bad models" and started to stop going the direction to support Warhammer Armies and doing their own thing (which worked very well for them with Deadzone)
nels1031 wrote:I've thought that for a long time. The window was open from the time that it was apparent that WHFB was being killed off to the point where GW finally gave AoS points in the first Generals Handbook. Once GHB1 dropped, GW has kept their foot on the pedal. I always felt that Mantic's lack of urgency was either a belief that the RNF market wasn't worth aggressively pursuing or that they just felt AoS would never recover from its disastrous launch and all they had to do was wait for folks to come to them
Mantic pushed King of War from its beginning as a better balanced Warhammer alternative, already at the start of 8th Edition long before AoS was a thing, it was just the same as with all those World of Warcraft alternatives.
People did not wanted to have an alternative game, they just wanted the main company to deliver a better product (or a 1:1 copy without the flaws) and never really thought of switching over to something else.
Same with Warhammer Online by that time, it was a great game, but people did not like it because it was "not like WoW" and did not even try to get into the differences as everything was treated like in the other game and as it did not work out well they quit.
People rather switched to 40k, or quit the hobby than looking into first edition of KoW during Warhammer 8th
Problem for KoW is also that it is a real Rank&File game with all the advantages and disadvantages, while Warhammer was always kind of a Skirmish game with special unit formations.
And of course people who wanted to have single models mechanics, never felt home, with none of the R&F games out there.
nels1031 wrote:I think even T9A was smoking KoW on tourney attendance for a short while before it started its current decline.
As the european Tabletop Tournament scene is driven by the ETC, and the ETC early on decided to rather create a Community Version of 8th Edition than to switch to Kings of War (because of the models), or AoS it was very clear that neither game will be a thing for tournaments
Which is not a big surprise as those who stayed until Endtimes really liked 8th Fantasy and KoW was everything that this was not
AoS, while popular elsewhere, still pretty much not exists in the German tournament scene and T9A is the main Fantasy game (and 40k the dominat tournament game, next to X-Wing)
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: 2015 - Games Workshop launches the End Times, a series of four campaign books with miniature releases set to conclude story arcs in a hitherto static setting and end WHFB. The End Times create a surge of interest and activity among hobbyists while the event lasts.
Since this hasn't been pointed out yet, End Times started in late summer 2014 with the release of Nagash. I think it was August, but might have been September instead.
Elbows wrote:Mantic may have missed its chance. They've always been held back by terrible models.
Overread wrote:The problem Mantic has isn't just the quality of sculpt its the whole design ethos of them.
I am still surprised that the main argument against a game that makes clear that you can use whatever miniatures you like, are the bad models
Maybe this is the main problem for KoW since the start, that people did not get that the early product line as cheap models alternative to GW, and the game Kings of War, as better balanced alternative to Warhammer, were not really related.
Thing is what draws us to the games is the visual side of things. The reason we play wargames isn't for the rules alone, the whole experience includes the visual aspect, which is models. The best way for Kings of War to advertise their product is with their models not their rulebook and on their website there are loads of photos of their models. So when someone thinks about using their game that is what they see and that is what gives them their first impressions of it. In addition if they see a Kings of War game with Warhammer models it just looks like a warhammer game pretty much save that the units are in blocks instead of free moving.
GW realises this and its partly why they've pushed for their high quality models. When you will likely spend more hours building and painting your army than playing them the models are very critical to the experience. Plus its much easier to say "I won't play AoS" when you're buying everything from another company. IF the only thing you're not buying is 1 battletome and not downloading the free rules off the internet; it becomes much harder to separate yourself fully and not try out the other game. An aspect that was easy early one when AoS had no rules; but now with 2.0 becoming much stronger and very close to becoming a completed release that temptation will be there to chip away at Kings of War.
Kings of War did miss the boat; they've got 3 years now to steady the boat that they've got and try to grow it if they can; however at the same time AoS is vastly improved. It will never be rank and file, but as a miniatures wargame its pretty much in line with 40K (if not actually better in terms of balance as the "soup" issue is far restrained within it - heck right now Slaanesh is the only real major outlier in terms of balance for 2.0 battletomes - which isn't to say they are all perfect, but that its the only one of multiple 2.0 Tomes that is clearly very broken and that's mostly on one mechanic - depravity)
Of course we play a Wargame not for the rules alone
But I see a basic problem here that more or less GW marketing introduced.
People rather care about the models instead of the rules, meaning that they rather replace the GW models if they are too expensive or don't like the style instead of changing the ruselset if they don't like the game.
Keep playing the bad game as long as you like the miniatures
instead of
play the game you like with the miniatures you like
I met a lot of people during gaming in the past 20 years, and nearly all of those who were introduced by GW into the Hobby came up as the forme, searching for alternative models but never for alternative rules (and if they wanted to change the system, they always thought they need to change their models too as using GW models for a different game is bad while using other models for a GW game is fine)
For people coming from somewhere else, like historical games or RPG's, they never really understood why you should not use different rules for different scenarios while keeping the same models
As you collect one army and then just play with the ruselset that fit todays mood.
interesting small thing is how big the jump from 5th to 6th ed was. 6th upped the regiment sizes, nerfed heroes, and removed a lot of the "fantastic" elements (weaker magic, items, monsters), while upping the visual "grimdarkness" of it.
I feel like AoS, lack of ranks aside, is very much a spiritual successor of HeroHammer, which is, for many reasons, the most disliked edition among WFB fans that stayed on till the end times.
WHFB was not selling. GW tried a bunch of stuff gamers said they wanted to get it to sell. "We want supplements and different ways to play!
Blood in the Badlands
Triumph and Treachery
Storm of Magic
Mighty Empires
Still didn't sell. I mean I was upset when GW killed WHFB and gave us AoS, But given just HOW MANY GAMES THERE ARE OMG JESUS GUYS, I got over it pretty fast.
Frankly, the cost of getting into the game was too big and, frankly, the culture of wargaming had been moving away from rank 'n flank for awhile. Skirmish games were, and still are, where the gaming culture is at.
Also, on a semi-related note
What the hell are people talking about "bad models" with Mantic? Like, yeah 5 years ago I would agree with you that the only minis they produce worth a damn are the Ghouls and Zombies.
Have you seen them recently? All the old stuff that looked like ass has completely been revamped. And everything else is jut straight up their own style for the world they created whidch I would hardly call "bad", Just different.
I dont see KOW being damaged by a WHFB2.0 until its out and released
I had a Dwarf KOW army - I wouldnt have started buying GW dwarves since mine are already on square bases. I'd buy more Mantic products for my army. It's not like GW has tons of official GTs
The problem with WHFB hasn't changed. WHFB players are great at making a lot of noise but almost always fail to actually put money on the table to support the hobby. They bought thier models in 1978 or got them second hand and they are done ever buying more. The fanbase is split between those who prefer house-ruling and those who insist on only using their favorite edition. There's no significant base to make a profit from. What little there was is playing Age of Sigmar.
I see a lot of people celebrating but not actually promising to spend money at anywhere near the level needed to maintain the line. In the meantime, GW promised Sisters of Battle and people both promised and then did drop a crapton of money on their doorstep. Even Necromunda fans stepped up, drawing huge numbers into the hobby. Pretty sure the WHFB players aren't going to do any of that.
I see a lot of people celebrating but not actually promising to spend money at anywhere near the level needed to maintain the line. In the meantime, GW promised Sisters of Battle and people both promised and then did drop a crapton of money on their doorstep. Even Necromunda fans stepped up, drawing huge numbers into the hobby. Pretty sure the WHFB players aren't going to do any of that.
Well right now GW isn't selling ANY Old World stuff, but they ARE selling Sisters of Battle.
So your argument, whilst it has some merit that many Old World fans do already have armies, it loses because right now GW isn't actually selling it. People aren't thinking about buying because there's nothing to buy and people can promise to spend millions on it and it won't mean anything. And it won't for a several years until GW brings it back in whatever form they are going to do it as.
You argument won't hold water until that date; until such time as GW puts the product on the table (with the right marketing before to make people aware of it) and see if it actually does or does not sell. Even then we have to consider how fast it sells, in what volume and what volume GW is happy with it to progress at. So its not something we are going to see resolved for a long while yet. Asa result there's little point going into the "old gamers not willing to spend" argument
I don't know how typical I am but I bought tons of WHFB minis, that I used for 40k. I loved the fluff, got tons of the novels, but the game never interested me at all.
Squares.
Paint tons of models so they can stand in squares and die in order.
Even CHAOS marches around in squares.
Now a return of Mordheim, that would get me to open my wallet.
The Perry Twins leaving in 2014 probably didn't help.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_and_Michael_Perry They were probably a very grounding influence on the studio.
After them leaving we started to get necrosphinx, snake surfers and other highly stupid stuff
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: WHFB was not selling. GW tried a bunch of stuff gamers said they wanted to get it to sell. "We want supplements and different ways to play!
Blood in the Badlands
Triumph and Treachery
Storm of Magic
Mighty Empires
Still didn't sell..
it did sell, those things just did not changed the game or made it better and therefore no one came back nor did new players started, therefore it did not sell as good as before
the game already started "not selling" with 7th Daemon Book and just comp system helped to maintain the playerbase
8th was just one step too far for most
also a reason why T9A is not a big thing in most places, as the best balanced 8th Edition that is possible, it is still the 8th Edition
We had almost 60 registered active whfb players in our events.
AOS came, and that number fell to 6. Right now we hit about 12-15 in 2019 AOS. A far cry from the almost-60 that we had in 2015 when the old world went boom.
So we had a ton of activity.
However I would say almost no one was giving GW any money. They were playing a ton, but no one was giving GW a cent.
* models could be obtained from a highly soaked 2nd hand market (ebay etc)
* models could be obtained on the cheap from other companies that worked just as well
* army builder etc was used and army books were hardly bought.
* most players had the paper back rulebook that they bought... off ebay.
Additionally 8th had very few releases. It was 40k almost every day. Nothing new came out that couldn't be found elsewhere for cheaper.
I really don't buy the whole "no one wanted to play whfb" because that was not the case in my region at.all. It was no one wanted to pay GW prices and had ways to easily get an army without sending a cent to GW, and played a ton. But did not support the developer.
Kind of like everyone loving a video game but pirating it instead of buying it.
The folks that love rank and flank largely don't sit on the same communication channels as the follks that love skirmish games, so its easy to fall into the mindset that no one wants squares... they just want skirmish.
I guess I'm one of the few that actually likes Mantic miniatures, having bought lots of KoW and Warpath miniatures. Yeah they are a bit on the cheap quality side but they have a certain charm. They're definitely stepping up their quality if you haven't seen the new Ratkin (skaven) line they're making.
I am excited about the news of Warhammer The Old World. But KoW fills the void that GW imploded. If I wanted to play whfb with balanced rules and no bloat I play KoW. If I want to actually play whfb. I play 8th edition or 6th edition.
We don't even know what GW is going to do with Warhammer fantasy. That teaser image was nothing but a teaser.
I'm still waiting for my beloved Greenskinz to get a battletome or atleast get FAQ'd into Orruk Warclans because those bozo's at GW think Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz are the only two ORC tribes in the AoS universe.
If Warhammer The Old World is going to be a rank and file game then I can see this being like Horus Heresy. We don't even know if GW has the man power to have a dedicated team to only work on Warhammer The Old World.
godardc wrote: Are you sure about this chapter house thing ? They may have lost it but destroying WFB because they lost it seems...huge.
Saying that GW 'lost' the Chapterhouse case is a misrepresentation. They didn't, because it wasn't a straight 'win or lose' situation. They claimed IP infringement on a whole raft of stuff, some of which was upheld by the court, and some of which was not.
Enough of those infringement claims went against them to trigger the changes we saw, though. Or, at least, while the Chapterhouse case being the trigger for the nuking of WHFB and the introduction of the Citadel Trademarkium miniature naming system and the move towards removing options not represented in the model range is only supposition, the timing makes the cause and effect here fairly obvious.
I think the focus on remaking the game for IP reasons is interesting, but I wouldn't claim it was the primary reason for creating AoS or for the tone and artistic direction it ended up going in.
Rather it was one factor in a multitude that contributed to making AoS.
Consider another factor for example - the progression of the game from beginning of 6th ed to end of 8th ed.
6th ed drops and in the beginning it was focused on blocks of troops trying to out-maneuver each other for advantage.
Characters and monsters (largely) could not fight against a fully-ranked up unit and were meant to be support pieces.
"Max" unit sizes were like 16 for elite infantry and 20? for hordes - there was usually little advantage to going over that size or peole might add one extra row in case of casualties from bows - that's also what came in the box - so one box = one unit for about $30 or so?
By the end of 6th ed characters and monsters of the top armies were killing machines. Anything other than the most elite infantry was at-best ablative wounds, and at worst a slow & largely irrelevant unit you had to take to fill "The core tax" before you maxed out on highly mobile and killy cavalry and characters.
7th Edition was just a revised 6th ed that started from a higher power baseline.
Infantry units were getting larger in order to keep them alive long enough to see combat.
Infantry box prices start rising and by the end of 7th ed they started to pull boxes and repackage as 10-man units with only a partial decrease in price - so like a stealth price rise.
8th Edition promised to make Infantry the focus of the game again except they didn't scale the game back they simply gave bonuses to infantry for being in massive Horde formations.
They made them more mobile, made terrain less difficult and ultimately removed a lot of the maneuvering and strategy that made Fantasy unique from 40k.
The 10-man unit boxes become the norm along. Lots of new kits were made with typical GW details & bling (people can argue if some were too detailed) along with a higher and higher price. I think the pinnacle became the new Chaos Forsaken which reached an insane (at the time) price of $50 for 10 guys and you could easily run 2 units of 20 or 1 Horde unit of 40 - so $200 to make one unit that wasn't even a big part of your army.
Also, since they didn't want huge units to become TOO powerful so they had all the spells in 8th ed that could potentially obliterate an entire unit.
At the same time we saw Warmachine becoming very popular almost as the antitheses of everything WFB had become - lower start-up cost, smaller self-contained units that were valuable on the table, emphasis on precise movement etc. Also a very active company that ran leagues and tournaments.
I can see how all those factors and more led into the decline of WFB.
If you're looking at it as a company and you know the only way to fix it is burn it down and start again you might as well burn it down and go in another direction and also solve some IP issues and throw the alternative miniature market for a loop.
However I would say almost no one was giving GW any money. They were playing a ton, but no one was giving GW a cent.
Which is how we end up here. This situation was endemic to the WFB side of things. On a personal, admittedly biased level, I believe we will see a repeat of the situation if GW will go for anything more ambitious than a few 2-player boxed sets. The very nature of WFB encouraged people to not buy models, because unit filler made out of terrain pieces or modelling rocks worked just as fine.
WHFB was not making money. The second hand market was too big and, after GW stopped supporting tournaments, the restriction of using GW models was gone so smaller companies *cough* Mantic *cough* were able to sell alternatives cheaper that also cut int GW sales.
6th edition was the edition I started in and, to this day, remains my favorite and most balanced system. However let's not pretend it did not have problems. (How many power dice could a Tzeentch Chaos army bring to the table? was it 21 or 24?)
7th edition fixed a bunch of problems with 6th but the Army books killed that edition HARD. I was a tournament players during 7th edition and unless you brought Dark Elves, Vampires or Chaos Daemons don't expect to rank anywhere near the top. (there were exceptions like my Empire War Altar/Steam tank I ran once in a tournament and managed to get 3rd...every other list I brought put me on the bottom tables)
GW refusing to FAQ or Errata any of those army books led to 8th edition which tried to fix the army book issue with the core rules. The fix that edition provided can be boiled down to "Buy more minis and Horde your way to victory!" Which, while I enjoyed, was clearly a cynical ploy to sell more models.
If WHFB comes back it will not at all be like anything we've seen from 6th to 8th....or even 9th age (which I do enjoy as well).
kodos wrote: I am still surprised that the main argument against a game that makes clear that you can use whatever miniatures you like, are the bad models
QFT. There's also a disconnect reading tweets by Games Workshop fan boys gaking on Mantic's minis, when GW makes the best plastic kits in the industry. There is no competition, even if there are some sci-fi (Maelstrom's Edge?) and fantasy (Shieldwolf, Mantic) who are getting closer. Though I will say GW has fething terrible resin compared to the boutique resin you can get for often lower prices, except we're supposed to ignore that while trashing Mantic for daring to compete with the Dub.
Re: WHFB's decline, I'll echo Auticus on the lack of new stuff during 8E. It very much felt like armies were largely given a new book, a new monstrous cavalry unit, a new monster and a new hero to buy, and that was mostly it - and buy it they did, because you gotta have your book and because those few new models were often Obviously Good and instantly picked up by the meta. But there wasn't much else to invest in, since we all already had armies and the meta was stagnating pretty hard there at the End Times.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I don't know how typical I am but I bought tons of WHFB minis, that I used for 40k. I loved the fluff, got tons of the novels, but the game never interested me at all.
Squares.
Paint tons of models so they can stand in squares and die in order.
Even CHAOS marches around in squares.
Now a return of Mordheim, that would get me to open my wallet.
I also bought a ton of fantasy miniatures for conversions or merely the pleasure of having them. I have almost every BL novel printed up to 2017, and many printed later. I bought 3 editions worth of army books for the fluff. I never bought minis second hand because I always wanted all the bits. Never played a single game. I know others in a similar situation.
By the end, the combination of higher prices and fewer posing options made the newer miniatures less attractive to me, and my purchasing slowed way down. I started buying from other companies, including Mantic. I've got hundreds of Mantic miniatures that I bought for less than the cost one modern GW boxed set. Thanks to Mantic, Northstar, Warlord, Wargames Factory, and others, my internalized measure for value-per-dollar has been recalibrated to the point that I doubt I could ever justify buying a lot of GW minis again. WHFB was infamous for requiring huge blocks of pricey, samey models for very little benefit. I just can't see this working out unless GW changes something drastically.
Boss Salvage wrote: Though I will say GW has fething terrible resin compared to the boutique resin you can get for often lower prices, except we're supposed to ignore that while trashing Mantic for daring to compete with the Dub.
I don't think anyone ignored how bad Finecast was when its much hyped launch fell flat. Its improved I'm told, but its forever tainted in my mind and I wouldn't touch a GW Finecast mini with 4 editions of those red WHFB whippy measuring sticks taped together. And I don't believe I'm alone.
Re: WHFB's decline, I'll echo Auticus on the lack of new stuff during 8E. It very much felt like armies were largely given a new book, a new monstrous cavalry unit, a new monster and a new hero to buy, and that was mostly it - and buy it they did, because you gotta have your book and because those few new models were often Obviously Good and instantly picked up by the meta. But there wasn't much else to invest in, since we all already had armies and the meta was stagnating pretty hard there at the End Times.
Well those were new and no one had anything like that previously so, yeah, people bought them. Regular rank and file though? Well I have my metal Greatswords I bought during 6th edition, no way I'm buying a 10 man box of plastic Goldswords for the same price as metal models.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: WHFB was not selling. GW tried a bunch of stuff gamers said they wanted to get it to sell. "We want supplements and different ways to play!
Blood in the Badlands Triumph and Treachery Storm of Magic Mighty Empires
Still didn't sell. I mean I was upset when GW killed WHFB and gave us AoS, But given just HOW MANY GAMES THERE ARE OMG JESUS GUYS, I got over it pretty fast.
Frankly, the cost of getting into the game was too big and, frankly, the culture of wargaming had been moving away from rank 'n flank for awhile. Skirmish games were, and still are, where the gaming culture is at.
Also, on a semi-related note
What the hell are people talking about "bad models" with Mantic? Like, yeah 5 years ago I would agree with you that the only minis they produce worth a damn are the Ghouls and Zombies.
Have you seen them recently? All the old stuff that looked like ass has completely been revamped. And everything else is jut straight up their own style for the world they created whidch I would hardly call "bad", Just different.
Your post literally reads like - heh Gamers killed WFB with their bad decisions, also Gamers are making the correct decision to play skirmish games.
Yes it's true some (lots?) of WFB wanted a great comprehensive campaign system. There's a reason why General's Compendium is still sought after today. Blood in the Badlands was not it. It was basically a series of White Dwarf articles bundled in a hardcover. It was just some random stories and ideas for playing themed games in the badlands and some examples of the studio games.
Mighty Empires absolutely sold for the tiles for sure - it also had a pretty half-baked campaign system.
Storm of Magic? Who the fudge was asking for that? Who looked at the state of WFB and said, "Gee I wish every army could summon OP monsters forcing me to buy multiple kits from armies I don't own" Who looked at the 8th ed magic phase and said - we should kick this up a notch!? Nobody - This was another blatant attempt to make a WFB apocalypse game and soak the whales for $.
Triumph and Treachery I actually don't know that one which means it came out after everyone in my area had given up on 8th.
GW was like the Monkey's Paw of rules designers: We want infantry to be more relevant - Ok here's unbreakable 50-man hordes! We want a way to limit magic so it's not so consistent and good for some armies - Ok roll randomly sometimes you do nothing, sometimes you delete a unit. We want a way to deal with all these monsters - Ok here's an even bigger more ridiculous monster for your army!
Why would gamers destroy WFB?
Edit - I think there is room for all kinds of systems - I just don't like this idea that Rank and Flank is somehow inherently flawed. I.e. Gamers were moving toward smaller skirmish games precisely because of the design and rules decisions GW made from begining of 6th ed to downfall of WFB.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Well those were new and no one had anything like that previously so, yeah, people bought them. Regular rank and file though? Well I have my metal Greatswords I bought during 6th edition, no way I'm buying a 10 man box of plastic Goldswords for the same price as metal models.
I actually think you made my point better, that when there was a more comprehensive release for WHFB, vets didn't buy it because they already had it (I also remember goldswords costing more than the metals!) Mine was more about GW only releasing Things That You Had to Buy to Be Competitive and little else interesting or foundational - i.e. updated books and meta-breakingly great MC or monsters. That's pretty obnoxious when you're not interested in riding the meta's wave of min/max same-ness (he said looking directly at 40k's trash fire). Also as a person who tried to get multiple newbies into WHFB and didn't have a ton of success: wow that game was hard to start from scratch. I'm finding KOW easier (you can access cool stuff faster + easier rules + doesn't cost $$$$) but RNF fantasy without any hobby experience is plain weird.
FWIW, I also think the current way GW has been rebooting legacy WHFB armies into AOS - look particularly at the Ogres, with a single new hero, a piece of terrain, a hardback book - and doing the marine supplements - a single new hero, an upgrade sprue, a hardback book (that requires a marine book) - is highly indicative of how WHOW is going to be handled. Minimum investment, token shiny minis for marketing purposes, lots of rehashing old sprues, new hardback books. A part of me hopes they step sideways and do something entirely different, however we've seen a lot of savvy low-investment, minimum-viable-product style decisions of late, so I have to suspect the same, particularly for a line that threatens to directly compete with AOS.
Your post literally reads like - heh Gamers killed WFB with their bad decisions, also Gamers are making the correct decision to play skirmish games.
Gamers did kill WHFB by virtue of the fact that they didn't buy anything.
And yes, the culture of wargaming was slowly moving towards skirmish games and away from rank n' flank for awhile. The investment needed to put together an army was huge and expensive to get what were essentially wound markers. Added to the fact GW's way of balancing cheap troops vs Elite troops was "Horde formation" meant that it got even more expensive and untenable for everyone except veteran players who already had armies going back to 4th-5th edition.
I mean if you don't believe me just take a look at the shear number of Skirmish games out there
Warhammer 40k Age of Sigmar
Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game
Warmachine/Hordes
This is Not a Test
Rangers of Shadow Deep
Relic Blade
Killteam
Infinity
Batman Miniature Game
Monsterpocalypse
The Walking Dead: All Out War
Star War Legion
Frostgrave
Malifaux
Bushido
Last Days: Zombie Apocalypse
Those are the ones just off the top of my head. Now Rank and Flank Games?
Kings of War
A Song of Ice and Fire
Legacy Warhammer Fantasy Battle (Pick any editiion)
The 9th Age
The investment to play skirmish is much easier to get into then games like WHFB. Part of the reason that AoS did have success after they finally added points is because it was friendlier to just buy a single box of anything and it was a workable unit. If I buy a box of lets say Freeguild Guard I can use it right away and it is viable. in WHFB? I'd need to buy 3 more to even have a chance to have a unit that will perform on the table.
There is a lot of other, cheaper options for entertainment out there. If a wargame wants to compete it needs to be priced accordingly. Warhammer Fantasy, by the way it was designed, did not allow for that.
Gamers did kill WHFB by virtue of the fact that they didn't buy anything.
And then End Times happened, and gamers bought all the things. Suggesting that the real problem prior to that point wasn't gamers not buying, but GW not offering what gamers wanted to buy.
Gamers did kill WHFB by virtue of the fact that they didn't buy anything.
And then End Times happened, and gamers bought all the things. Suggesting that the real problem prior to that point wasn't gamers not buying, but GW not offering what gamers wanted to buy.
They bought books, not models.
Given that GW is a model making company and not a publisher its easy to see how that wasn't quite enough to save WHFB.
Company level wargames. A skirmish game would have like 10-15 or so models per side max, like Malifaux or Infinity. 40k et al are played at a larger scale and are not skirmish games.
Gamers did kill WHFB by virtue of the fact that they didn't buy anything.
And then End Times happened, and gamers bought all the things. Suggesting that the real problem prior to that point wasn't gamers not buying, but GW not offering what gamers wanted to buy.
They bought books, not models.
Given that GW is a model making company and not a publisher its easy to see how that wasn't quite enough to save WHFB.
Still the end times proved that there was a community willing to spend if enough effort was put.
They lowballed the Nagash so much they shipped for a while in blank boxes. ET books sold out and eventually you could only buy the hardbacks on GW site (dick move to indie FLGS). A lot of the ET kits sold immensely well (morghasts, the skaven release)...
By that time it was probably too far to reverse course though.
Elbows wrote:Mantic may have missed its chance. They've always been held back by terrible models.
Overread wrote:The problem Mantic has isn't just the quality of sculpt its the whole design ethos of them.
I am still surprised that the main argument against a game that makes clear that you can use whatever miniatures you like, are the bad models
I don't believe I said a single thing about "the game". I was commenting on Mantic's inability to capitalize on the demise of their primary opposition. Please read a response more thoroughly next time.
ChargerIIC wrote: The problem with WHFB hasn't changed. WHFB players are great at making a lot of noise but almost always fail to actually put money on the table to support the hobby. They bought thier models in 1978 or got them second hand and they are done ever buying more. The fanbase is split between those who prefer house-ruling and those who insist on only using their favorite edition. There's no significant base to make a profit from. What little there was is playing Age of Sigmar. ...
Well said.
Agree with many others that WHFB's demise was helped along its way by players who had existing armies and who never planned on buying anything retail.
That's a legitimate position to take but a silly one if you want to hope that a game stays in print/supported.
Agree with many others that WHFB's demise was helped along its way by players who had existing armies and who never planned on buying anything retail.
That's a legitimate position to take but a silly one if you want to hope that a game stays in print/supported.
I'm perplexed as to how that's the player's problem. A company can't expect customers to keep buying for the sole purpose of keeping them in business. It's up to the company to give their customers a reason to keep buying. They tried to do that by pushing for larger armies, larger and more powerful models, and larger unit sizes... if customers didn't buy more as a result, that's not a failing of the customer, it's a failing of that business model.
Players/Games did not buy, so it is their fault that the game died.
It is not like GW forbid play-testing in house, dismissed market research and avoided contact with the community as much as possible
Which leaded to a product line (models and rules) the majority did not liked and therefore did not buy.
Cost and/or amount of models was not the reason, yes Skirmish games are easier to start, but at the same time Warhammer 40k was very popular with a similar high entry barrier
So, most armies got new models but instead of shiny new stuff for the masses, it was elite/rare stuff that you only bought once or twice.
I remember the Khemri hype and how no one in my area bought anything as all were expecting new core models but did not get them.
And no one wanted to build an army around 50-100 1995 Skelettons just to bring in 2 units and 1 Monster of the good looking new stuff.
Similar to all the other old ranges that old, bad, or ugly core models that were still expensive and the good looking ones not possible to put into R&F units.
GW would have needed to put the plug after the first or secound year with declining sales and turn around.
Same as they did with 6th 40k and 1st AoS (so at least they learned from Warhammer), but instead to kept following the road and now people claiming it was all the gamers fault and not bad company strategy/marketing is ridiculous
Elbows wrote:Mantic may have missed its chance. They've always been held back by terrible models.
Overread wrote:The problem Mantic has isn't just the quality of sculpt its the whole design ethos of them.
I am still surprised that the main argument against a game that makes clear that you can use whatever miniatures you like, are the bad models
I don't believe I said a single thing about "the game". I was commenting on Mantic's inability to capitalize on the demise of their primary opposition. Please read a response more thoroughly next time.
How do you know?
You have sales figures from Mantic?
Specially comapred to their SciFi range?
I just know from an interview that their Fantasy Elves are their best selling plastic models, and Deadzone is their best selling game (followed by Walking Dead).
So how do you know that Mantic did not capitalize? (and not talking about the "Game" while the only weakness GW had ever had were the bad rules for the their games and not the models).
I mean if you don't believe me just take a look at the shear number of Skirmish games out there
Warhammer 40k Age of Sigmar
Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game
Warmachine/Hordes
If you're going to make that argument at least know what a skirmish game is. Those four are clearly not.
At the right point value yes they are. And if they are not skirmish then what are they? Cus I am seeing neither a rank nor a flank.
The problem is that "Skirmish" can be the size of the encounter (small = Skirmish, large = battle, eg: Gettysburg started as a skirmish but developed into a full scale battle over the first day)
or the type of the formation, skirmishing units VS ranked up units, usually meaning that Skirmish are units in lose formation or no formation at all
Skirmish games usually have a low amount of models and are more focused on the basic model types with the big stuff being off the table support
For Example Infinity, or Malifaux
Larger games are called Mass-Battle games or Command/Platoon/Division Level games.
Individual Model basing/mechanics are usually seen as a 1:1 scale (model to real soldiers) while everything with unit bases is seen as 1:X
(exceptions are with smaller models, as 15 or 6mm can be a 1:1 scale but because it is easier to move/handle the models units bases and mechanics are used)
Rank & File/Flank would be a game with fixed units in blocks/bases, and while it can have less models than a Skirmish game, it is usually scaled that 1 unit/block/base represents a higher number of real soldiers, making it always a bigger Battle instead of a smaller Encounter
(Flames of War uses a 1:1 scale in 15mm is a Mass Battle game not an R&F game, while most Napolonics in 15mm would be an R&F Battle game, is the units still have a scale of 1:20, then there are SciFi games with single based models that uses Flank/Rare mechanics for units and a 1:1 scale which then would be still a Skirmish game)
So 40k, same as AoS, WM/H or Warhammer would be something like a Mass-Skirmish, Mass-Battle or Platoon-Level games as something in between a Skirmish and a Battle with Skirmish-Game rules but small Battle size
It's pretty simple...people still aren't buying many Mantic miniatures. Go look at the "Mantic" section of this forum...there's pages and pages of armies for KoW which are not Mantic miniatures, etc. They failed to revise their sculpts/model line where they could have stolen the full miniature market from GW - instead they only cornered the market on rank-and-flank rules. That may be enough for them. Instead, Oathmark, Northstar, and Forgeworld have jumped on the "good" plastic fantasy lines instead. Mantic still can't sculpt their way out of a wet bag.
Elbows wrote: It's pretty simple...people still aren't buying many Mantic miniatures. Go look at the "Mantic" section of this forum...there's pages and pages of armies for KoW which are not Mantic miniatures, etc. They failed to revise their sculpts/model line where they could have stolen the full miniature market from GW - instead they only cornered the market on rank-and-flank rules. That may be enough for them. Instead, Oathmark, Northstar, and Forgeworld have jumped on the "good" plastic fantasy lines instead. Mantic still can't sculpt their way out of a wet bag.
because you don't see a lot of Mantic models present in a Forum, you think they don't sell well.
and how should Mantic have stolen the miniature market from GW?
By making as expensive models as GW for a GW game that is not going well (8th edition) or for game no one really know what models would be needed (AoS)?
of course, if Mantic would have known 3 years in advance, they would have possibly got better and cheaper Minis on the table, not knowing if there is even a market for them or not
Yes, the revised their line with the death of Warhammer, but surprise, without a GW Mass Battle game demanding a high number of models to play, there was nor real market to sell R&F model lines.
And using models made for R&F for a Skirmish game does not work well in the same way is using models made for Skirmish games in R&F.
PS: I have never seen Oathmark, Northstar or Forgeworld to be used for Warhammer Fantasy at all, while there were a lot of Mantic models used for Core Units.
Nowadays I see a lot of T9A armies with Mantic models as they are the only ones left with models lines supporting the R&F market.
PPS: and by saying Mantic still can't sculpt, I guess you are some years behind and/or never looked at the stuff from Mantic in the recent years.
ChargerIIC wrote:The problem with WHFB hasn't changed. WHFB players are great at making a lot of noise but almost always fail to actually put money on the table to support the hobby. They bought thier models in 1978 or got them second hand and they are done ever buying more. The fanbase is split between those who prefer house-ruling and those who insist on only using their favorite edition. There's no significant base to make a profit from. What little there was is playing Age of Sigmar.
I see a lot of people celebrating but not actually promising to spend money at anywhere near the level needed to maintain the line. In the meantime, GW promised Sisters of Battle and people both promised and then did drop a crapton of money on their doorstep. Even Necromunda fans stepped up, drawing huge numbers into the hobby. Pretty sure the WHFB players aren't going to do any of that.
Your post makes far too many false assumptions. At the start of 6th Ed. both local areas I frequented had blossoming to booming WFB involvement. You had people that were either just starting WFB as their first game OR a swathe of 40K people that had decided now was the time to double dip. We had a standing rule of 1,000 points as a starting point, a goal for the new people to hit. Sure, we had store armies, but all players were focused on getting their own thing.
During this time, regiment boxes were $20 US, with a price bump to $25 sometime during the 6th life cycle. There were also Battalion boxes that were the WFB equivalent of the Battleforce boxes at the time. I believe they started out at $75 US and ended at $90 when they were discontinued. They also had army boxes that you could buy if you wanted in all at once, They ran from $175 US to $250 for a couple 40K ones and the Mortal Chaos army at the time.
Taking the average, what did $200 get you, roughly? A playable 2,000 point army. Maybe 1,500. We could err on the side of caution with this because some of the army boxes were filled with dirt cheap infantry units, so weren't a good point sink. Still, taking the Dwarfs set as an example, a 2,000 point army for right at $200 US. You know what Dwarfs could get for $200 us all the way through 8th up until the LCTB cleared old stock? Well, 20 Hammerers and 20 Ironbreakers would wipe out that budget immediately. The Warriors box and the Thunderers/Quarrelers box both went from $25 at introduction to a lofty $35 all the way til they sold out. Last year, or this year, I can't remember the exact moment when it all sold.
One of the funnier aspects of the price hike death was the fact that in BOTH of those communities you had people who were getting multiple armies. I think the only people that didn't have at least two armies each for both systems were the high school kids who simply couldn't afford it. Everyone else was double dipped for both systems, PLUS some bank spent on the side games like BFG, Mordheim, and the like.
So what changed? Affordability was one stepping stone BEFORE they made the rules bloat, which only added to the issue. If we're still making it a $1,000 buy in to get a 2,000 point army or so, you won't see people lining up to join in. In 40K it's a lot easier to fleece players with high prices as the items are very aesthetically unique. Dwarfs? You aren't necessarily held hostage by GW on this. Ideally, if they are bring back Rank and Flank, they'd do well in making something along the lines of the last three WFB starter sets with two small armies inside, and some Battalions to back them up. I wish I was confident in them doing exactly that, but I'm not.
Seriously, Mantic may of had poor sculpts back when they first started. Now however? The Nightstalker range is easily on par or better with anything GW is doing and that new Northern Alliance army is Tiiiight.
Warhammer Fantasy players were just not buying miniatures, that's it. The only ones that did sell were models that there was never an earlier edition equivalent for. Arachnaroks, Demigryphs, Terrorgeists, yeah well buy those. Oh there are new Core troops for Dark elves? How much for a box of 10??!? Yeah, I'll just stick to the old 6th edition plastics and buy used ones off ebay. Or do a local swap at my FLGS.
I mean I'm not going to put this trouble all on the gamers. There were a bunch of factors that all collided at once in the late 2000's. The price of metal skyrocketing so pewter was no longer an option. The loss of revenue from LOTR as that bubble popped and the unwillingness of GW to actually errata their damn game during 7th edition. Despite that however the simple fact was that GW could release a new box of Space Marines that were just slightly different and people would gobble them up. WHFB? boxes sat on the shelves not moving.
I mean people lament that Bretonnians and Tomb Kings are gone and how much they liked them and thought they were awesome! Ask them if they actually bought anything and it's all "We'll, maybe someday I'll get around to making an army and buying stuff, but not now." and that alone explains why they are gone.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Seriously, Mantic may of had poor sculpts back when they first started. Now however? The Nightstalker range is easily on par or better with anything GW is doing and that new Northern Alliance army is Tiiiight.
Warhammer Fantasy players were just not buying miniatures, that's it. The only ones that did sell were models that there was never an earlier edition equivalent for. Arachnaroks, Demigryphs, Terrorgeists, yeah well buy those. Oh there are new Core troops for Dark elves? How much for a box of 10??!? Yeah, I'll just stick to the old 6th edition plastics and buy used ones off ebay. Or do a local swap at my FLGS.
I mean I'm not going to put this trouble all on the gamers. There were a bunch of factors that all collided at once in the late 2000's. The price of metal skyrocketing so pewter was no longer an option. The loss of revenue from LOTR as that bubble popped and the unwillingness of GW to actually errata their damn game during 7th edition. Despite that however the simple fact was that GW could release a new box of Space Marines that were just slightly different and people would gobble them up. WHFB? boxes sat on the shelves not moving.
I mean people lament that Bretonnians and Tomb Kings are gone and how much they liked them and thought they were awesome! Ask them if they actually bought anything and it's all "We'll, maybe someday I'll get around to making an army and buying stuff, but not now." and that alone explains why they are gone.
It's so weird you keep saying things I agree with but then coming to totally different conclusions... ;-)
First off - yeah Mantic new stuff is sweet esp. the Northern Alliance.
I had to Google the new Dark Elf core troops and I was about to call you a liar because they didn't change at all - till I googled the 6th ed troops and I see Oh wow, yes they actually are new and slightly *slightly* different - which no one will see in a block of 20-30 guys (Ok so yeah there is a functional issue directly related to nature of Rank and Flank). So there's the problem right there. They updated an old but arguably nice looking kit with a slightly nicer kit, doubled the price and ignored all kinds of ugly ancient models. Case in-point - Tomb Kings as Kodos talks about above. The living statues were jaw-dropping when they came out but you had to buy hundreds of fugly old skeletons in order to use them.
It's like the Dark Eldar in 40k - for years they sat with out-dated models (or missing models for all kinds of options) and when people called for updates the argument was - why should GW update them when they don't sell - they can release more space marines instead and make $ . When they finally did an overhaul of the range It was insanely well received and Dark Eldar sold like wildfire.
There's also cases where the new sculpts just totally miss the mark for some people. E.g. Off the top of my head - the daemonettes or the High Elf Phoenix Guard. The Phoenix Guard are some of the best metal models for the High Elf range (IMO) - when I saw the plastics I madly scrambled to buy as many of the old metals as I could. Why should I buy a worse model and the same or higher price with no functional in-game difference?
You're right a bunch of factors all colliding at once and we're only talking about a few of them - they may all be correct & important but with no way to gauge their impact.
Re. the Space Marines - I think it's important to emphasize the "slightly" different part. As time goes on GW gets better at making those kits each have something unique and valuable that helps them sell - even if it's just details from the lore from some old chapters or some rare piece of equipment. I think current GW would handle Fantasy release much differently - with campaign books and short-run releases like Tooth and Claw and Forgebane to help get new models and breathe new life into the game.
2000-2006, 6th Edition Warhammer is released with a re-worked rules set and army list booklet to have all armies on the same level, going from a more RPG/Hero focused game to a troop focused one.
It becomes the dominant TableTop tournament game in a lot of countries (replacing Battletech in some, which already struggled in the late 90ies because of unliked changes to the game)
2006-2010, during early 7th Edition GW declines/refuses to give official FAQ/Errata with a "we don't make mistakes" statement, leading to different community comps.
"Lore of Akito" is the dominant Community Comp in German Speaking countries and compensating most flaws of Warhammer by that time (including FAQ/Errata for armies not updated by GW).
It is replaced by SCS after ETC uses it in 8th.
2009, a disappointed Alessio Cavatore starts creating Kings of War after the statement "that he can write a much better game on 20 pages total if GW would give him some freedom in development" was heard by Ronni Renton from Mantic Games in a pub.
2009, GW released War of the Rings, a R&F Ruleset to be used with their LotR models, considered by some people the better Fantasy game by that time and attracts Warhammer players who stayed away from the Skirmish game before
2015, LotR is hit by GW's "double the price half the box" strategy to maximize profits (literally, former 24 model boxes were replaced by 12 model boxes for double the price of the old box) but unlike the Warhammer Community, LotR gamers did not stayed loyal to GW and the game was basically dead over night.
2016, after Kirby resigned (and AoS fails) AoS gets a major update making a community comp official and changes the game from the ground up
2018, 2nd Edition AoS is released
2019, 3rd Edition Kings of War was released, again with a main book and a dupplement compatible with former Warhammer Armies
Agree with many others that WHFB's demise was helped along its way by players who had existing armies and who never planned on buying anything retail.
That's a legitimate position to take but a silly one if you want to hope that a game stays in print/supported.
I'm perplexed as to how that's the player's problem. A company can't expect customers to keep buying for the sole purpose of keeping them in business. It's up to the company to give their customers a reason to keep buying. They tried to do that by pushing for larger armies, larger and more powerful models, and larger unit sizes... if customers didn't buy more as a result, that's not a failing of the customer, it's a failing of that business model.
This becomes a circular argument when you take on the viewpoint of responsibility. It isn't the companies responsibility to support a game that doesn't generate the revenue to support their employees. I'm not saying that there's some kind of moral responibility to purchase models. I'm saying its a cold, hard fact that if you don't buy models as an audience you won't get a game with active rules suport. It's just like the argument about buying models at the FLGS you play at. No one can force you to buy models to support your FLGS but you can't complain when it goes out of business because everyone thought someone else would keep them in business.
The argument here is whether there is an active, purchasing segment to support WHFB that wasn't there before. If you intend to freeload off that audience segment, that's fine; but if that segment isn't there this will just be a flash in the pan like AOS's legends rules.
I mean if you don't believe me just take a look at the shear number of Skirmish games out there
Warhammer 40k Age of Sigmar
Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game
Warmachine/Hordes
If you're going to make that argument at least know what a skirmish game is. Those four are clearly not.
Warmachine/Hordes is clealry a skirmish game. Most games only have 10-12 models per side and the design clearly intends for no more than a couple infantry squads per side. AOS was also designed as one, although it scales better. This doesn't count Mantic's fantasy skirmish level game (vanguard I think its called), mantic warpath, squad commander, kill team, XWing, Star Wras Legion etc.
There are definitely more skirmish games coming out than company level and the market for company level has shrinked a little over the past decade.
This becomes a circular argument when you take on the viewpoint of responsibility. It isn't the companies responsibility to support a game that doesn't generate the revenue to support their employees. I'm not saying that there's some kind of moral responibility to purchase models. I'm saying its a cold, hard fact that if you don't buy models as an audience you won't get a game with active rules suport.
And I would say to make a bad product that does not sell, and then arguing that it is not the company fault of making it bad in the first place, but for the target group which did not like it makes no sense
Same as Disney is making a bad movie, than the fans are the reason that no one watching it because also bad movies have to be a Blockbuster if Disney is making it.
If GW makes a bad game and/or a game the people don't like, than they should stop and make it better, and not wait years, do nothing and than kill the whole IP (would be fun if Disney now would blow off the whole Star Wars Universe if the third movie does not sell and remove if completely from the market and the fans would be guilty for not paying enough money to a bad product)
Average 75pt armies for WMH (barring Jack heavy or Cryx Mechanithrall spam lists) will run about 30 or so models. Roughly the same as some 2nd ed 40k armies. Both of which are squad level games. They are not skirmish games. In a skirmish game such as Mordheim, Necromunda, Infinity, Malifaux the individual matters, things are not run in squads etc. Are you trying to say WMH/40k/AOS are the same type of game as Malifaux/Infinity et al as they are clearly not.
If anything, the news of the upcoming "Fantasy" retread shows GW's weakness, rather then their strengths.
As is said, Warmahordes has picked up the GW Overpriced/ Over tabled" bug in the last three years. They are honestly a skirmish oriented game, and the shoehorn fits all doesn't work for them. The Kirby Days was when we saw the initiation of AOS, and we see it getting tanked as it continues to try new things with the concept. Yes, They are not as popular as the Fantasy used to be, but they have a edge in that GW threw in all their egg into this basket, and clearly found that it was not working. With their Chapterhouse lawsuit, GW was taken down a peg, and had to clearly make up lost revenue, so they jumped in head first with the skirmish games, Rogue Trader, Kill Team, Necromunda, etc... So exactly, THIS is where fantasy would come to the table at, and then grow from there....
Mantic is more nitch, and playing off of GW's detractions, rather then building on their own. If it came right down to it, Mantic would lose their shorts if it weren't for Kickstarter, and being able to singlehandedly sell direct to players, THIS is one area where GW is too kool for school.
All of this begs the question- WHY DID IT TAKE THEM SO LONG TO COME FULL CIRCLE?
Average 75pt armies for WMH (barring Jack heavy or Cryx Mechanithrall spam lists) will run about 30 or so models. Roughly the same as some 2nd ed 40k armies. Both of which are squad level games. They are not skirmish games. In a skirmish game such as Mordheim, Necromunda, Infinity, Malifaux the individual matters, things are not run in squads etc. Are you trying to say WMH/40k/AOS are the same type of game as Malifaux/Infinity et al as they are clearly not.
Number of models is irrelevant, they move around in skirmish formation. It is a Skirmish game. You can rules lawyer and split hairs but those boys are all still on round bases. Even then you can play at smaller point values as well instead of larger games and the point still stands.
As for the resurrection of Warhammer Fantasy, GW was never going to let their IP lapse entirely. WHFB was always going to come back it was just a matter of when that was going to happen. By wiping out all the old legacy stuff (I mean they still sold Snotlings from...what? 30 years ago up until earlier this year) they can now sell models in that game again. Just do not expect the game to anything like it was before...which I guess is for the best as clearly GW had written themselves into a dead end when it came to expanding the game.
Average 75pt armies for WMH (barring Jack heavy or Cryx Mechanithrall spam lists) will run about 30 or so models. Roughly the same as some 2nd ed 40k armies. Both of which are squad level games. They are not skirmish games. In a skirmish game such as Mordheim, Necromunda, Infinity, Malifaux the individual matters, things are not run in squads etc. Are you trying to say WMH/40k/AOS are the same type of game as Malifaux/Infinity et al as they are clearly not.
Number of models is irrelevant, they move around in skirmish formation. It is a Skirmish game.
I have no idea how you can go through life being so utterly wrong.
TIL my Green Tide Ork army with numbers in the triple figures is a "skirmish" force and is equivalent to my dozen or so models Arcanist Malifaux crew. Pull the other one you dafty.
Using your logic why would games like Kill Team/Company of Iron need to exist when their parent games are already "skirmish" games and already scratch that itch? Answer- they are different games with different scales and mechanics.
cuda1179 wrote: I wonder how kicked-in-the-nuts Mantic feels. They just announce their coming 3rd edition of Kings of War, and now GW throws this into the air. Probably will hurt their sales
I dunno. I've been keeping my ears to my local scene and no one wants this there. They've stated that they're either going to just stay with Sigmar or ignore this completely. I think for some people, there is just too much bad blood on this.
One guy said "Do they expect me to buy my army again, and given the shoddy mess that their 40k Rules are, why should I have any faith in this? No thanks."
I think there's a core of people who are no longer GW customers who will remain no longer GW customers. That's a given and part of it IS GW's fault for how they handled the whole transition from Old World to AoS.
However I also think that 3 years is a long time; time enough for some to cool off and forget; for others to get inspired again and heck if GW starts throwing out a new fun system and new designs on models then many might "buy their army again" because now its moved on 10-20 years in design and technology in terms of miniature production.
Elbows wrote: It's pretty simple...people still aren't buying many Mantic miniatures. Go look at the "Mantic" section of this forum...there's pages and pages of armies for KoW which are not Mantic miniatures, etc. They failed to revise their sculpts/model line where they could have stolen the full miniature market from GW - instead they only cornered the market on rank-and-flank rules. That may be enough for them. Instead, Oathmark, Northstar, and Forgeworld have jumped on the "good" plastic fantasy lines instead. Mantic still can't sculpt their way out of a wet bag.
because you don't see a lot of Mantic models present in a Forum, you think they don't sell well.
and how should Mantic have stolen the miniature market from GW?
By making as expensive models as GW for a GW game that is not going well (8th edition) or for game no one really know what models would be needed (AoS)?
of course, if Mantic would have known 3 years in advance, they would have possibly got better and cheaper Minis on the table, not knowing if there is even a market for them or not
Yes, the revised their line with the death of Warhammer, but surprise, without a GW Mass Battle game demanding a high number of models to play, there was nor real market to sell R&F model lines.
And using models made for R&F for a Skirmish game does not work well in the same way is using models made for Skirmish games in R&F.
PS: I have never seen Oathmark, Northstar or Forgeworld to be used for Warhammer Fantasy at all, while there were a lot of Mantic models used for Core Units.
Nowadays I see a lot of T9A armies with Mantic models as they are the only ones left with models lines supporting the R&F market.
PPS: and by saying Mantic still can't sculpt, I guess you are some years behind and/or never looked at the stuff from Mantic in the recent years.
You can continue to believe what you want to believe - but you've no better information or evidence that you think Mantic is doing well, than I have evidence they are not. I see zero Mantic presence in the local gaming community, none in the other city I frequent either. Not a single gaming friend I know owns or likes Mantic miniatures. And they're not all GW players either. I see little to no positive Mantic presence on the variety of gaming forums or facebook groups I attend. If you firmly believe Mantic is moving and shaking and killing the market...that's fine?
I have followed Mantic plenty lately and I still am yet to be wowed by any of their sculpts. Their general aesthetic is still pretty poor and the quality of the Mantic products I've been hands-on with have been garbage. I suppose this is the internet though so you can attempt to tell me that my opinion is wrong or some such. Carry on with your enthusiasm for Mantic - no one is stopping you.
Using your logic why would games like Kill Team/Company of Iron need to exist when their parent games are already "skirmish" games and already scratch that itch? Answer- they are different games with different scales and mechanics.
Those games exist as an easy, cheap, entry point for players. With Kill Team GW realized that you must have things players will want to buy at every price point. No matter the amount of money you have to spend on the hobby you should be able to walk into a Warhammer store and be able to buy something. I can go out a buy a box of Marines and have a Kill team to play with in that game. Once you have that...hey maybe a month or two down the line I have a little more disposable income and I buy a box of terminators. Now I've slowly begun the addiction to plastic crack.
By providing games that can be played at all price points you can get players to slowly join the hobby and slowly build more and more until, before you know it, you're sitting on a whole company of Space Marines getting ready for a weekend Apocalypse game.
And yes triple figure Orks is still skirmish. They move around in skirmish and fight in skirmish. It is skirmish. You may not interpret it as such but it's not a matter of the numbers it's the method by which the game is played. Now if I were to make this claim about, lets say, Epic Armageddon I would be wrong. In this instance I am indeed correct.
And yes triple figure Orks is still skirmish. They move around in skirmish and fight in skirmish. It is skirmish. You may not interpret it as such but it's not a matter of the numbers it's the method by which the game is played.
Incidentally this is why I think AoS at tournament-points level is a mess.
It's a perfectly good simple game at 1000-ish points but IMHO it's downhill from there.
Tidy square bases in their trays escalate much better.
KoW is a good game, but yeah the models are hit or miss. Often not bad (a few notwithstanding) but definitely an odd aesthetic if you're used to the GW style.
I don't think this WHFB will be the WHFB we remember. Let's not forget a big reason it wasn't selling was the usual GW issues: Crazy imbalance and they upped the unit sizes to where you wanted 40, and then sold boxes of 10 for $40 (goldswords anyone?).
To put in perspective when I played in 5th edition, 20 was the usual size for non-Goblin/Skaven units (but mostly metal blister packs of 2 then). Chaos Warriors were often 10 but had the best stats in the game at the time and were stupid expensive in points. Cavalry was typically 5 or 10 if you really wanted a hard-hitting unit.
Commodus is technically correct, since the use of "skirmish" in wargmaing tends to just be shorthand for "one figure equals one man" on the tabletop.
From there you can distinguish by "squad" level skirmish for games like Kill Team or Company of Iron or "platoon" level for games like 40k, Age of Sigmar or Bolt action (although technically those are more "reinforced platoon" games).
Once you hit company level games, where the basic operating unit is a platoon and you move to stands of infantry that represent fireteams instead of individuals, I think you've moved beyond the realm of "skirmish" games.
Wayniac wrote: To put in perspective when I played in 5th edition, 20 was the usual size for non-Goblin/Skaven units (but mostly metal blister packs of 2 then). Chaos Warriors were often 10 but had the best stats in the game at the time and were stupid expensive in points. Cavalry was typically 5 or 10 if you really wanted a hard-hitting unit.
Best thing GW could do for the WHFB revival is go back to 1 box = 1 unit, apart from maybe 1-2 armies that rely on larger blocks of infantry. Once every army needed a core of 2-3 30-40 miniatures blocks to survive, it's not wonder that WHFB collapsed, especially with GW prices. On a side note, it's actually when I started playing WHFB, and my Dwarves featured two blocks of 30 dwarf warriors with Great Weapons.
Also yes, AoS beyond 1000pts is no where near as balanced and fun as playing at 1000pts. So much so that I honestly wish that was the standard game size.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: And yes triple figure Orks is still skirmish. They move around in skirmish and fight in skirmish. It is skirmish. You may not interpret it as such but it's not a matter of the numbers it's the method by which the game is played. Now if I were to make this claim about, lets say, Epic Armageddon I would be wrong. In this instance I am indeed correct.
Maybe what broke up the community was not operationalizing terms and then arguing about who is using them "right" and "wrong."
If you want to define "skirmish" in terms of the scope, then numbers do matter. If "skirmish" refers to the movement mechanic, then scope doesn't matter.
No one is right or wrong here, there is just no operationalization of terms.
Also yes, AoS beyond 1000pts is no where near as balanced and fun as playing at 1000pts. So much so that I honestly wish that was the standard game size.
I'd go a bit further to say like no more than 1500 but yeah. I long think that 1000-1500 is the "sweet" spot of Warhammer, 1250 in particular on say a 4x4 table with lots of terrain. Enough to include what you want, low enough to get rid of some of the BS. Sadly most people I know refuse to do anything below 2k because that's "tournament standard" and the game is presumably balanced around that.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: And yes triple figure Orks is still skirmish. They move around in skirmish and fight in skirmish. It is skirmish. You may not interpret it as such but it's not a matter of the numbers it's the method by which the game is played. Now if I were to make this claim about, lets say, Epic Armageddon I would be wrong. In this instance I am indeed correct.
Maybe what broke up the community was not operationalizing terms and then arguing about who is using them "right" and "wrong."
If you want to define "skirmish" in terms of the scope, then numbers do matter. If "skirmish" refers to the movement mechanic, then scope doesn't matter.
No one is right or wrong here, there is just no operationalization of terms.
It depends entirely on how you look at it. In a military sense? I will agree that the troop numbers in a standard game of 40k would not qualify as a skirmish. However we are not talking about actual battles that actually are happening. It's a game and the way wargames are categorized as based on how they play, not the numbers of models on the board. In that sense 40k is a Skirmish game.
So yes If I am being a bit harsh in my criticism then I apologize. However through all my years of playing wargames I have never heard of 40k being called anything other then a skirmish game. And it has always been called a skirmish game based on how it played not the number of models on the field.
I imagine that is ultimately where the disconnect in terminology comes from.
You can continue to believe what you want to believe - but you've no better information or evidence that you think Mantic is doing well, than I have evidence they are not. I see zero Mantic presence in the local gaming community, none in the other city I frequent either. Not a single gaming friend I know owns or likes Mantic miniatures. And they're not all GW players either. I see little to no positive Mantic presence on the variety of gaming forums or facebook groups I attend. If you firmly believe Mantic is moving and shaking and killing the market...that's fine?
So I guess Age of Sigmar is dead too?
Never seen any positive comment on the rules, non here around play that game or buy the models and the forums or social media groups I attend just avoid that game and everything that comes with it.
It seems to be a US-only thing that people are even talking about it, if Dakka is considered a US forum.
Same for Kill Team and Blood Bowl, I mean I have seen more local Battletech than Blood Bowl games, so following that Battletech is the more popular game?
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: It depends entirely on how you look at it. In a military sense? I will agree that the troop numbers in a standard game of 40k would not qualify as a skirmish. However we are not talking about actual battles that actually are happening. It's a game and the way wargames are categorized as based on how they play, not the numbers of models on the board. In that sense 40k is a Skirmish game.
So yes If I am being a bit harsh in my criticism then I apologize. However through all my years of playing wargames I have never heard of 40k being called anything other then a skirmish game. And it has always been called a skirmish game based on how it played not the number of models on the field.
I imagine that is ultimately where the disconnect in terminology comes from.
Well, I did "unfairly" quote just you, but the "problem" was both sides not defining terms and so just talking around each other.
We are, as a community, pretty loose on terms. I don't just mean this forum, but in wargaming. In hobby. Think about how many ways you can interpret a notion of "scale." You might read scale and think, of, the proportion of the models. 28mm scale. But someone else reads "scale" and thinks, oh, the size of the forces in the game. A skirmish scale game of 10 models per side.
No one is wrong there. Just the word does not have a definitive, clear, objective meaning unless you pretty much spell it out. Again, I wasn't intent on "singling" you out, just a severe limitation of the nature of quoting here that made it seem that way, so I apologize if it came across that way.
40k is a skirmish game but GW have forced it into a larger scale without changing the machanics of their skirmish system.
Too much detail for the level being played. While also reducing stuff like morale, cover and movement to speed play up when morale, cover and movement are vital ingredients so any wargame played at any size level.
But hell isn't it great to know what kind of knife your sargent is armed with?
Grot 6 wrote: If anything, the news of the upcoming "Fantasy" retread shows GW's weakness, rather then their strengths.
As is said, Warmahordes has picked up the GW Overpriced/ Over tabled" bug in the last three years. They are honestly a skirmish oriented game, and the shoehorn fits all doesn't work for them. The Kirby Days was when we saw the initiation of AOS, and we see it getting tanked as it continues to try new things with the concept. Yes, They are not as popular as the Fantasy used to be, but they have a edge in that GW threw in all their egg into this basket, and clearly found that it was not working. With their Chapterhouse lawsuit, GW was taken down a peg, and had to clearly make up lost revenue, so they jumped in head first with the skirmish games, Rogue Trader, Kill Team, Necromunda, etc... So exactly, THIS is where fantasy would come to the table at, and then grow from there....
Mantic is more nitch, and playing off of GW's detractions, rather then building on their own. If it came right down to it, Mantic would lose their shorts if it weren't for Kickstarter, and being able to singlehandedly sell direct to players, THIS is one area where GW is too kool for school.
All of this begs the question- WHY DID IT TAKE THEM SO LONG TO COME FULL CIRCLE?
The echo chamber of be positive all the time or we ban you communities like tga surround gw with warm cheer about aos. When communication fan channels only let you fap to positivity 24/7 you are going to miss the other side of the coin.
You can continue to believe what you want to believe - but you've no better information or evidence that you think Mantic is doing well, than I have evidence they are not. I see zero Mantic presence in the local gaming community, none in the other city I frequent either. Not a single gaming friend I know owns or likes Mantic miniatures. And they're not all GW players either. I see little to no positive Mantic presence on the variety of gaming forums or facebook groups I attend. If you firmly believe Mantic is moving and shaking and killing the market...that's fine?
So I guess Age of Sigmar is dead too?
Never seen any positive comment on the rules, non here around play that game or buy the models and the forums or social media groups I attend just avoid that game and everything that comes with it.
It seems to be a US-only thing that people are even talking about it, if Dakka is considered a US forum.
Same for Kill Team and Blood Bowl, I mean I have seen more local Battletech than Blood Bowl games, so following that Battletech is the more popular game?
Aos is situational. Dead some places, booming in others. Its for sure the most popular fantasy game in the us from my travels for whatever thats worth, with a huge push to monetize tournaments and milk the community via patreons, “coaching”, and pay wall blogs and youtube streams.
To roll this back around to the original topic, frankly how GW handled 7th edition is basically part of why Fantasy ultimately died. 7th edition on it's own wasn't the problem but the trio of Dark Elves, Vampires and Daemon army books basically breaking the game hand a large hand in it.
GW's refusal to Errata those ridiculously broken armies led the the design decisions in 8th edition. Instead of just fixing the army books, or doing a ravening Hordes for 8th like they did with the transition between 5th and 6th, they tried to fix the game with the core rules. That led to the nerfing of psychology and changes to movement that led to veteran players bowing out. Dropping sales to below the GW paint range.
Regardless what you think of AoS, it's 30% of GW sales so it succeeded in what it was meant to do, sell models.
Elbows wrote: It's pretty simple...people still aren't buying many Mantic miniatures. Go look at the "Mantic" section of this forum...there's pages and pages of armies for KoW which are not Mantic miniatures, etc. They failed to revise their sculpts/model line where they could have stolen the full miniature market from GW - instead they only cornered the market on rank-and-flank rules. That may be enough for them. Instead, Oathmark, Northstar, and Forgeworld have jumped on the "good" plastic fantasy lines instead. Mantic still can't sculpt their way out of a wet bag.
because you don't see a lot of Mantic models present in a Forum, you think they don't sell well.
and how should Mantic have stolen the miniature market from GW?
By making as expensive models as GW for a GW game that is not going well (8th edition) or for game no one really know what models would be needed (AoS)?
of course, if Mantic would have known 3 years in advance, they would have possibly got better and cheaper Minis on the table, not knowing if there is even a market for them or not
Yes, the revised their line with the death of Warhammer, but surprise, without a GW Mass Battle game demanding a high number of models to play, there was nor real market to sell R&F model lines.
And using models made for R&F for a Skirmish game does not work well in the same way is using models made for Skirmish games in R&F.
PS: I have never seen Oathmark, Northstar or Forgeworld to be used for Warhammer Fantasy at all, while there were a lot of Mantic models used for Core Units.
Nowadays I see a lot of T9A armies with Mantic models as they are the only ones left with models lines supporting the R&F market.
PPS: and by saying Mantic still can't sculpt, I guess you are some years behind and/or never looked at the stuff from Mantic in the recent years.
You can continue to believe what you want to believe - but you've no better information or evidence that you think Mantic is doing well, than I have evidence they are not. I see zero Mantic presence in the local gaming community, none in the other city I frequent either. Not a single gaming friend I know owns or likes Mantic miniatures. And they're not all GW players either. I see little to no positive Mantic presence on the variety of gaming forums or facebook groups I attend. If you firmly believe Mantic is moving and shaking and killing the market...that's fine?
I have followed Mantic plenty lately and I still am yet to be wowed by any of their sculpts. Their general aesthetic is still pretty poor and the quality of the Mantic products I've been hands-on with have been garbage. I suppose this is the internet though so you can attempt to tell me that my opinion is wrong or some such. Carry on with your enthusiasm for Mantic - no one is stopping you.
Except Mantic, like all UK-based companies, file company accounts which can be viewed by the public, and whilst it doesn't include the P&L (which simply indicates they have less than £10m turnover under Small Companies exemptions), state of play can be inferred from year on year balance sheet comparisons.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: To roll this back around to the original topic, frankly how GW handled 7th edition is basically part of why Fantasy ultimately died. 7th edition on it's own wasn't the problem but the trio of Dark Elves, Vampires and Daemon army books basically breaking the game hand a large hand in it.
Honestly? It was starting at the tail end of 6th. You could see the Army Book Creep making the later books overpowered and poorly balanced, but it wasn't at a tipping point yet, until one thing happened...
Pete Haines.
Of all the 6th Ed books, and even as much as how I hated the fact that Chaos got to have its cake and eat every one else's bakeries too, Dwarfs 6.5 was the most imbalanced thing to come out of 6th. So much so it stood up reasonably well to 7th Ed. books. If you really want to know how bad it was screwed, I did a thread about it over at classichammer.
At any rate, this book established two things: 1 - that the basic compositional structure of armies were about to be tossed out the window wholesale, and 2 - It would start an arms race of Special Rules which would result in the creation of the Big Bad Three. Once limits were being ignored and rules made explicitly to break limits laid down by the rulebook, all it took was Gav Thorpe and Matt Ward to see it and say "OP? Hold my beer..." From there it was the High Elves with Speed of Asuryan, which was dismissed by several people in my gaming communities because "they were S3 T3, how bad is that rule really?". Precedent. It set a design precedent which carried over all the way to 8th, which was also one of Ward's projects. It all boiled down to the lack of restraint on Haines' part as he wrote the books for his two favorite armies: Dwarfs 6.5 and the now infamous Chaos Marines Codex 3.5 on the other side of the wall.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: GW's refusal to Errata those ridiculously broken armies led the the design decisions in 8th edition. Instead of just fixing the army books, or doing a ravening Hordes for 8th like they did with the transition between 5th and 6th, they tried to fix the game with the core rules. That led to the nerfing of psychology and changes to movement that led to veteran players bowing out. Dropping sales to below the GW paint range.
Ward writing books EXPLICITLY to take advantage of rules loopholes in 7th and then writing 8th to correct those Army books rather than fix the books themselves, THEN the 8th books doubling down on the lethality along with basically adjusting fire off the new rules blew the playability up, honestly.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Regardless what you think of AoS, it's 30% of GW sales so it succeeded in what it was meant to do, sell models.
This part confuses me. Who was dismissing AOS at all?
Warhammer Fantasy wasn't selling. Barely anyone was playing it. It was a dead game.
You know the only people who've argued that and told me I'm wrong? Diehard WFB fans. And some people who are just butthurt because things changed.
I know people who love WFB, I did. But I spent years of my life with a box of models for Warhammer Fantasy Battles hoping to find someone that played. I didn't like 40k at first, and the only reason I got into it at all was because from 1994-2002... maybe once a month I could find someone playing fantasy and play a game.
Warhammer Fantasy wasn't selling. Barely anyone was playing it. It was a dead game.
Tell that to the people who received their Nagash in a blank box because they had to make a production re-run on the first week.
Or to the people who couldn't get their hands on the hardcover ET books because they got the sales predictions so wrong they eventually went GW shop only (and screwed with many a FLGS) or to tournament circuits like ETC who had their higher attendance ever during the ET.
8th had it's problems but it was definitely fixable. ET proved their customer base was willing to spend big if it got some love.
jouso wrote: Tell that to the people who received their Nagash in a blank box because they had to make a production re-run on the first week.
Or to the people who couldn't get their hands on the hardcover ET books because they got the sales predictions so wrong they eventually went GW shop only (and screwed with many a FLGS) or to tournament circuits like ETC who had their higher attendance ever during the ET.
8th had it's problems but it was definitely fixable. ET proved their customer base was willing to spend big if it got some love.
Alternative take: End Times sold because it was "End Times" and it was going to be a monumental event/series of products that wouldn't be available again afterward, and people rushed to buy it.
By this logic, Shadow War Armageddon was an awesome game because it sold out immediately.
jouso wrote: Tell that to the people who received their Nagash in a blank box because they had to make a production re-run on the first week.
Or to the people who couldn't get their hands on the hardcover ET books because they got the sales predictions so wrong they eventually went GW shop only (and screwed with many a FLGS) or to tournament circuits like ETC who had their higher attendance ever during the ET.
8th had it's problems but it was definitely fixable. ET proved their customer base was willing to spend big if it got some love.
Alternative take: End Times sold because it was "End Times" and it was going to be a monumental event/series of products that wouldn't be available again afterward, and people rushed to buy it.
By this logic, Shadow War Armageddon was an awesome game because it sold out immediately.
ET was more than a campaign. It changed core rules like allies and army composition and introduced summoning as army-wide mechanic.
It became a de facto 8.1 which shook up casual and tournament play.
jouso wrote: ET was more than a campaign. It changed core rules like allies and army composition and introduced summoning as army-wide mechanic.
It became a de facto 8.1 which shook up casual and tournament play.
Still never saw it. I remember it being discussed, but not a soul was playing Warhammer Fantasy.
Granted, it doesn't help that there's more gaming in the FLGS than the GW stores (most people stateside hate playing at GW, they're too pushy with the merch and their tables are usually 4'x4' in a LOT of places).
jouso wrote: ET was more than a campaign. It changed core rules like allies and army composition and introduced summoning as army-wide mechanic.
It became a de facto 8.1 which shook up casual and tournament play.
Still never saw it. I remember it being discussed, but not a soul was playing Warhammer Fantasy.
Granted, it doesn't help that there's more gaming in the FLGS than the GW stores (most people stateside hate playing at GW, they're too pushy with the merch and their tables are usually 4'x4' in a LOT of places).
Over here people mostly play in clubs rather than stores.
The releases (Nagash, morghast, the skaven ridicously OP Gunner rats) were immensely popular. Magic cards sold out, tournament attendance went up.
Of course if you lived in an area with little fantasy activity to start with you wouldn't see it.
Tell that to the people who received their Nagash in a blank box because they had to make a production re-run on the first week.
Or to the people who couldn't get their hands on the hardcover ET books because they got the sales predictions so wrong they eventually went GW shop only (and screwed with many a FLGS) or to tournament circuits like ETC who had their higher attendance ever during the ET.
8th had it's problems but it was definitely fixable. ET proved their customer base was willing to spend big if it got some love.
Yes people bought the Nagash book because they thought it was part of a push toward moving the story forward and part of a bunch of big changes leading into a 9th edition. They bought the Glottkin book for the same reason. As soon as December rolled around the the rumors on Warseer started...round based...floating planes of magic. No one bought Thanquol and the Archaon book. I know because I can go to my FLGSright now and both of those books are still on the discount shelf.
Mantic is more nitch, and playing off of GW's detractions, rather then building on their own. If it came right down to it, Mantic would lose their shorts if it weren't for Kickstarter, and being able to singlehandedly sell direct to players, THIS is one area where GW is too kool for school.
While I agree Mantic is more niche then GW, there are some inaccuracies here. Mantics "classic" range of fantasy miniatures (Undead, Orcs, Elves, Dwarfs) were all released without kickstarter, in fact, Mantic started in 2008 but had their first KS in 2012, so they were already an established company when they had their first KS. Secondly, the latest edition of Kings of War was released directly without kickstarter, so this idea that mantic is reliant on kickstarter is just wrong.
Also, I also disagree with the idea that mantic is just aping GW without building their own. Mantic are clearly in the early process of building their own fantasy/sci-fi worlds, just have a look at the latest version of Kings of War/Deadzone/Warpath. To quote Mantic directly “We don't blow up worlds. We build them...”
Warhammer Fantasy wasn't selling. Barely anyone was playing it. It was a dead game.
Tell that to the people who received their Nagash in a blank box because they had to make a production re-run on the first week.
Or to the people who couldn't get their hands on the hardcover ET books because they got the sales predictions so wrong they eventually went GW shop only (and screwed with many a FLGS) or to tournament circuits like ETC who had their higher attendance ever during the ET.
8th had it's problems but it was definitely fixable. ET proved their customer base was willing to spend big if it got some love.
In terms of WHFB getting some love, my memory of 8th Ed releases seems different to those saying the game was neglected.
Lots of army books released. Most with new units or model updates - sometimes both.
We got Storm of Magic as well, and associated beasties alongside.
So to say it was neglected just isn't my recollection nor experience, even pre-End Times (which, actually, kicked off with Blood of Sigmar, actually Seriously, that was when Mannfred succeeded in casting all of Sylvania into permanent darkness, setting things up for Nagash's return).
In terms of WHFB getting some love, my memory of 8th Ed releases seems different to those saying the game was neglected.
Lots of army books released. Most with new units or model updates - sometimes both.
We got Storm of Magic as well, and associated beasties alongside.
So to say it was neglected just isn't my recollection nor experience, even pre-End Times (which, actually, kicked off with Blood of Sigmar, actually Seriously, that was when Mannfred succeeded in casting all of Sylvania into permanent darkness, setting things up for Nagash's return).
Yup, Fantasy was not neglected at all in the early part of 8th. Plenty of supplements and new ways to play. It's just that no one, you know, played them. All anyone want to do was a pitched battle game. That was the be all end all of WHFB. Hell even when 8th gave 6 different scenarios to play people still whined about playing "the watchtower" since their totally elite ROLFSTOMP army they had would lose because they only ever built their army to play 1 way, pitched battle.
While I myself am still salty at GW for nuking WHFB I swear it's hard to blame GW when they really REALLY tried to save Fantasy. We all just reacted to it like that Poochie episode of the Simpsons.
Warhammer Fantasy wasn't selling. Barely anyone was playing it. It was a dead game.
Tell that to the people who received their Nagash in a blank box because they had to make a production re-run on the first week.
Or to the people who couldn't get their hands on the hardcover ET books because they got the sales predictions so wrong they eventually went GW shop only (and screwed with many a FLGS) or to tournament circuits like ETC who had their higher attendance ever during the ET.
8th had it's problems but it was definitely fixable. ET proved their customer base was willing to spend big if it got some love.
In terms of WHFB getting some love, my memory of 8th Ed releases seems different to those saying the game was neglected.
Lots of army books released. Most with new units or model updates - sometimes both.
We got Storm of Magic as well, and associated beasties alongside.
So to say it was neglected just isn't my recollection nor experience, even pre-End Times (which, actually, kicked off with Blood of Sigmar, actually Seriously, that was when Mannfred succeeded in casting all of Sylvania into permanent darkness, setting things up for Nagash's return).
GW definitely did release quite a lot of stuff over the course of 8th so it's not true to say they neglected WHFB during that time. However, I would question whether they released the right stuff at the right time. For example, the model updates that happened during 8th were great...except the prices were often obscene and they'd left them so late everyone had already either bought the older metal versions of new plastic units or sourced models from other companies. I played Dark Elves and it took GW decades to release new Dark Riders and we had to endure the 6th edition Executioners (great models, horrible design because the sword blades were glued on individually) for over 10 years too. GW eventually released plastic Executioners. The models were OK - a bit divisive, but generally pretty good I thought - the prices were obscene. £35 for 10 is too steep for the numbers required to field a decent unit, especially when everyone but brand new players already had an alternative.
The new supplements before the End Times were similar. I don't think anyone was asking for the type of thing GW produced, and nobody was very impressed by them. Storm of Magic was an unbalanced, poorly thought out joke of a supplement, for example. OTOH, the ET books were very successful because they provided new armies, new models and shook up the meta and provided genuinely new content. Many of the kits sold out. There was an appetite there, I just don't think GW at the time was well run enough to capitalise on it.
Warhammer Fantasy wasn't selling. Barely anyone was playing it. It was a dead game.
Tell that to the people who received their Nagash in a blank box because they had to make a production re-run on the first week.
Or to the people who couldn't get their hands on the hardcover ET books because they got the sales predictions so wrong they eventually went GW shop only (and screwed with many a FLGS) or to tournament circuits like ETC who had their higher attendance ever during the ET.
8th had it's problems but it was definitely fixable. ET proved their customer base was willing to spend big if it got some love.
In terms of WHFB getting some love, my memory of 8th Ed releases seems different to those saying the game was neglected.
Early 8th was ok but don't you remember the FAQ blackout of late 8th? Jumping the price shark with witch elves?
That blackout started in 2013, why? Because GW has a 2 year production cycle. What was GW doing in that 2 years? Age of Sigmar. That's why there was nothing coming out.
I think most people don't really remember that the conversation going on at GW in regards to Fantasy was either a total revamp of their fantasy game (Which lead to Age of Sigmar) or no fantasy at all.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: That blackout started in 2013, why? Because GW has a 2 year production cycle. What was GW doing in that 2 years? Age of Sigmar. That's why there was nothing coming out.
I think most people don't really remember that the conversation going on at GW in regards to Fantasy was either a total revamp of their fantasy game (Which lead to Age of Sigmar) or no fantasy at all.
Everyone knows that.
Everyone also knows that start collecting and reasonably priced boxes (something they apparently could only figure out during the AoS launch) would have kept the people in with much less drama.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: That blackout started in 2013, why? Because GW has a 2 year production cycle. What was GW doing in that 2 years? Age of Sigmar. That's why there was nothing coming out.
2 year? I thought I remembered in one of the interviews with Jess Goodwin, the production/planning cycle was like 5 years.
Mantic is more nitch, and playing off of GW's detractions, rather then building on their own. If it came right down to it, Mantic would lose their shorts if it weren't for Kickstarter, and being able to singlehandedly sell direct to players, THIS is one area where GW is too kool for school.
While I agree Mantic is more niche then GW, there are some inaccuracies here. Mantics "classic" range of fantasy miniatures (Undead, Orcs, Elves, Dwarfs) were all released without kickstarter, in fact, Mantic started in 2008 but had their first KS in 2012, so they were already an established company when they had their first KS. Secondly, the latest edition of Kings of War was released directly without kickstarter, so this idea that mantic is reliant on kickstarter is just wrong.
Also, I also disagree with the idea that mantic is just aping GW without building their own. Mantic are clearly in the early process of building their own fantasy/sci-fi worlds, just have a look at the latest version of Kings of War/Deadzone/Warpath. To quote Mantic directly “We don't blow up worlds. We build them...”
Mantic's Fantasy game already had to compete with stuff like FFG's Runewars , CMON's Game of Thrones Game, etc.., not to mention the still kicking 9th Age Community.
Not to mention, GW gave Mantic (and everyone else in that particular pocket-market) a 3+ years heads-up!!! If that isn't considerate, I don't know what is.
If Mantic (or whoever) cannot find a spot for themselves in the R&F gaming field with that much of a notice, they probably don't deserve to be there anyhow (hello Runewars).
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: That blackout started in 2013, why? Because GW has a 2 year production cycle. What was GW doing in that 2 years? Age of Sigmar. That's why there was nothing coming out.
2 year? I thought I remembered in one of the interviews with Jess Goodwin, the production/planning cycle was like 5 years.
The GW "blackout" started much earlier when GW took on the LoTR stuff, especially once New Line (?) started working The Hobbit and GW got all-super-secret insights into the new designs to make corresponding games/miniatures, along with the threat of being sued badly should stuff leak (or even did leak at some point?).
The paranoid no-leak culture born from contractual license agreements just somehow creeped into the entire company.
Of all the 6th Ed books, and even as much as how I hated the fact that Chaos got to have its cake and eat every one else's bakeries too, Dwarfs 6.5 was the most imbalanced thing to come out of 6th. So much so it stood up reasonably well to 7th Ed. books. If you really want to know how bad it was screwed, I did a thread about it over at classichammer.
. . . .
This part confuses me. Who was dismissing AOS at all?
The Dwarves were the army that put me off of fantasy. . . As I mentioned before, I played *A* game to learn the rules, and my buddy was an excellent teacher. . . Buuuuut, when my Ogre bulls got boxcars on the charge, with their special banner, with their special tyrant/boss dude, with the butcher successfully casting spells to buff them, and they still LOSE combat to a bunch of stunies?? F that. That is some serious BS right there, and some seriously poor game design.
As for the dismissing AOS thing, the shop I was at at the launch of AOS, you had 2 very distinct groups. The first group was the "fething sweet!!! I can FINALLY use all these fantasy minis Ive collected!!", the other group was the "how can you have a proper game with only 2 pages of rules? why did they blow up the world *I* liked?? Boo hoo, I hate GW for killing the thing I wasn't spending any money on"
Mantic's Fantasy game already had to compete with stuff like FFG's Runewars , CMON's Game of Thrones Game, etc.., not to mention the still kicking 9th Age Community.
Not to mention, GW gave Mantic (and everyone else in that particular pocket-market) a 3+ years heads-up!!! If that isn't considerate, I don't know what is.
If Mantic (or whoever) cannot find a spot for themselves in the R&F gaming field with that much of a notice, they probably don't deserve to be there anyhow (hello Runewars).
Well that goes back to my original point that Rank and Flank, despite a vocal community, is a minority niche in the wargaming hobby. Smaller skirmish games are just straight more popular.
I certainly like Kings of war quite a bit. KoW is an excellent tournament game, it plays fast and has multiple scenarios that are fun to play. Although it has limited growth potential due to the competition in wargaming right now. A Song of Ice and Fire is also a fun game and plays much different then other ones like it. It also has the added bonus of being easier to get into as if I go out and buy a box of Stark Swordswords...thats it, that's the unit. I don't have to buy additional boxes to complete a usable unit in game.
As for 9th Age, well it's the balanced Fantasy everyone's been clamoring for. Unfortunately for me it seems the game is much more popular in Europe than North America so there are not any tournaments here so I can't play it as much as I would like.
GW definitely did release quite a lot of stuff over the course of 8th so it's not true to say they neglected WHFB during that time. However, I would question whether they released the right stuff at the right time. For example, the model updates that happened during 8th were great...except the prices were often obscene and they'd left them so late everyone had already either bought the older metal versions of new plastic units or sourced models from other companies. I played Dark Elves and it took GW decades to release new Dark Riders and we had to endure the 6th edition Executioners (great models, horrible design because the sword blades were glued on individually) for over 10 years too. GW eventually released plastic Executioners. The models were OK - a bit divisive, but generally pretty good I thought - the prices were obscene. £35 for 10 is too steep for the numbers required to field a decent unit, especially when everyone but brand new players already had an alternative.
The new supplements before the End Times were similar. I don't think anyone was asking for the type of thing GW produced, and nobody was very impressed by them. Storm of Magic was an unbalanced, poorly thought out joke of a supplement, for example. OTOH, the ET books were very successful because they provided new armies, new models and shook up the meta and provided genuinely new content. Many of the kits sold out. There was an appetite there, I just don't think GW at the time was well run enough to capitalise on it.
I think its important to remember that Kirby was quoted (I think in at least more than one end of year/financial update document) that GW didn't do or need consumer surveys and that "GW knew what the customer wanted". This wasn't just him but the breed of management and approach that GW was taking at the time. Ergo they were attempting to please consumers by telling consumers what they wanted rather than listening too and reacting to consumer feedback - or even at least showing the pretence of such. So when managements plans started failing they started taking more drastic actions because they were thinking in a closed team environment. You can easily see how they wound up going "well no one likes the new rules stuff and they endlessly complain about the rules; but they love the models. Lets ditch the rules and focus just on models." From there you can easily see how the Grand Alliance structure and even the notion of "put whatever you want down" would fast become aspects added to the table and the creation of the launch state of AoS begins.
Mantic's Fantasy game already had to compete with stuff like FFG's Runewars , CMON's Game of Thrones Game, etc.., not to mention the still kicking 9th Age Community.
Not to mention, GW gave Mantic (and everyone else in that particular pocket-market) a 3+ years heads-up!!! If that isn't considerate, I don't know what is.
If Mantic (or whoever) cannot find a spot for themselves in the R&F gaming field with that much of a notice, they probably don't deserve to be there anyhow (hello Runewars).
Well that goes back to my original point that Rank and Flank, despite a vocal community, is a minority niche in the wargaming hobby. Smaller skirmish games are just straight more popular..
In store presence? Perhaps but in terms of actual games being played KoW/9th age and even the odd oldhammer event easily outnumber infinity/bolt action/malifaux/warmahordes etc. (i.e. every skirmish game not called warhammer 40k)
I'm speaking about Spain and Poland which are the countries I mostly game on.
Mantic is more nitch, and playing off of GW's detractions, rather then building on their own. If it came right down to it, Mantic would lose their shorts if it weren't for Kickstarter, and being able to singlehandedly sell direct to players, THIS is one area where GW is too kool for school.
While I agree Mantic is more niche then GW, there are some inaccuracies here. Mantics "classic" range of fantasy miniatures (Undead, Orcs, Elves, Dwarfs) were all released without kickstarter, in fact, Mantic started in 2008 but had their first KS in 2012, so they were already an established company when they had their first KS. Secondly, the latest edition of Kings of War was released directly without kickstarter, so this idea that mantic is reliant on kickstarter is just wrong.
Also, I also disagree with the idea that mantic is just aping GW without building their own. Mantic are clearly in the early process of building their own fantasy/sci-fi worlds, just have a look at the latest version of Kings of War/Deadzone/Warpath. To quote Mantic directly “We don't blow up worlds. We build them...”
Mantic makes their money and survives from their Kickstarters alone. In every shop in every place I have been, Mantic has zero consumer space, nor are people playing their games regularly. They were on a slow burn prior to KS 1, and as a participant, I saw Mantic grow within that time. Before that, Mantic was a small house companies of GW ex-employees with an axe to grind. And secondly, that they even need to acknowledge GW in response form shows you as to how weak their hand really is. They make a couple of good games. They are good, but not great. Walking Dead, Hellboy, and the Scifi knockoff are fine, but they do not have the staying power, and are taking the roads that Mongoose, Wyrd, and Warmahordes took before them. The ones that were overreaching, self defeating, and end up costing you in sales because you want to try to expand too fast.
In store presence? Perhaps but in terms of actual games being played KoW/9th age and even the odd oldhammer event easily outnumber infinity/bolt action/malifaux/warmahordes etc. (i.e. every skirmish game not called warhammer 40k)
I'm speaking about Spain and Poland which are the countries I mostly game on.
Given the amount of small miniature companies I see coming out of Spain and Poland that provide alternatives for KoW and 9th age that does not surprise me. Generally games like that have a very strong following in Europe and can easily fill tournament spots with ease.
In my neck of the woods (Canada) Infinity/Warmahordes/40k tend to sell out fast. Although we have smaller communities for AoS/Batman/9th age.
Mantic is more nitch, and playing off of GW's detractions, rather then building on their own. If it came right down to it, Mantic would lose their shorts if it weren't for Kickstarter, and being able to singlehandedly sell direct to players, THIS is one area where GW is too kool for school.
While I agree Mantic is more niche then GW, there are some inaccuracies here. Mantics "classic" range of fantasy miniatures (Undead, Orcs, Elves, Dwarfs) were all released without kickstarter, in fact, Mantic started in 2008 but had their first KS in 2012, so they were already an established company when they had their first KS. Secondly, the latest edition of Kings of War was released directly without kickstarter, so this idea that mantic is reliant on kickstarter is just wrong.
Also, I also disagree with the idea that mantic is just aping GW without building their own. Mantic are clearly in the early process of building their own fantasy/sci-fi worlds, just have a look at the latest version of Kings of War/Deadzone/Warpath. To quote Mantic directly “We don't blow up worlds. We build them...”
Mantic makes their money and survives from their Kickstarters alone. In every shop in every place I have been, Mantic has zero consumer space, nor are people playing their games regularly. They were on a slow burn prior to KS 1, and as a participant, I saw Mantic grow within that time. Before that, Mantic was a small house companies of GW ex-employees with an axe to grind. And secondly, that they even need to acknowledge GW in response form shows you as to how weak their hand really is. They make a couple of good games. They are good, but not great. Walking Dead, Hellboy, and the Scifi knockoff are fine, but they do not have the staying power, and are taking the roads that Mongoose, Wyrd, and Warmahordes took before them. The ones that were overreaching, self defeating, and end up costing you in sales because you want to try to expand too fast.
Mantic stopped being dependent on KS shortly after the Star Saga KS.
Mantic is more nitch, and playing off of GW's detractions, rather then building on their own. If it came right down to it, Mantic would lose their shorts if it weren't for Kickstarter, and being able to singlehandedly sell direct to players, THIS is one area where GW is too kool for school.
While I agree Mantic is more niche then GW, there are some inaccuracies here. Mantics "classic" range of fantasy miniatures (Undead, Orcs, Elves, Dwarfs) were all released without kickstarter, in fact, Mantic started in 2008 but had their first KS in 2012, so they were already an established company when they had their first KS. Secondly, the latest edition of Kings of War was released directly without kickstarter, so this idea that mantic is reliant on kickstarter is just wrong.
Also, I also disagree with the idea that mantic is just aping GW without building their own. Mantic are clearly in the early process of building their own fantasy/sci-fi worlds, just have a look at the latest version of Kings of War/Deadzone/Warpath. To quote Mantic directly “We don't blow up worlds. We build them...”
Mantic makes their money and survives from their Kickstarters alone. In every shop in every place I have been, Mantic has zero consumer space, nor are people playing their games regularly. They were on a slow burn prior to KS 1, and as a participant, I saw Mantic grow within that time. Before that, Mantic was a small house companies of GW ex-employees with an axe to grind. And secondly, that they even need to acknowledge GW in response form shows you as to how weak their hand really is. They make a couple of good games. They are good, but not great. Walking Dead, Hellboy, and the Scifi knockoff are fine, but they do not have the staying power, and are taking the roads that Mongoose, Wyrd, and Warmahordes took before them. The ones that were overreaching, self defeating, and end up costing you in sales because you want to try to expand too fast.
Mantic stopped being dependent on KS shortly after the Star Saga KS.
No. They still live on Kickstarters.
I see you've been out of the net. And NO, Mantic is not something that comes out in your local shop without you having difficulties getting it. Secondly, they do NOT keep their games stocked, and you are hit or miss on getting add on stuff in your FLGS.
League of Infamy
TerrainCrate 2: CRATE EXPECTATIONS
Hellboy: The Board Game
Kings of War: Vanguard - the fantasy skirmish wargame
TerrainCrate - Plastic, affordable, fantasy terrain!
SINCE Star Saga.
Mantic is more nitch, and playing off of GW's detractions, rather then building on their own. If it came right down to it, Mantic would lose their shorts if it weren't for Kickstarter, and being able to singlehandedly sell direct to players, THIS is one area where GW is too kool for school.
While I agree Mantic is more niche then GW, there are some inaccuracies here. Mantics "classic" range of fantasy miniatures (Undead, Orcs, Elves, Dwarfs) were all released without kickstarter, in fact, Mantic started in 2008 but had their first KS in 2012, so they were already an established company when they had their first KS. Secondly, the latest edition of Kings of War was released directly without kickstarter, so this idea that mantic is reliant on kickstarter is just wrong.
Also, I also disagree with the idea that mantic is just aping GW without building their own. Mantic are clearly in the early process of building their own fantasy/sci-fi worlds, just have a look at the latest version of Kings of War/Deadzone/Warpath. To quote Mantic directly “We don't blow up worlds. We build them...”
Mantic makes their money and survives from their Kickstarters alone. In every shop in every place I have been, Mantic has zero consumer space, nor are people playing their games regularly. They were on a slow burn prior to KS 1, and as a participant, I saw Mantic grow within that time. Before that, Mantic was a small house companies of GW ex-employees with an axe to grind. And secondly, that they even need to acknowledge GW in response form shows you as to how weak their hand really is. They make a couple of good games. They are good, but not great. Walking Dead, Hellboy, and the Scifi knockoff are fine, but they do not have the staying power, and are taking the roads that Mongoose, Wyrd, and Warmahordes took before them. The ones that were overreaching, self defeating, and end up costing you in sales because you want to try to expand too fast.
Mantic stopped being dependent on KS shortly after the Star Saga KS.
No. They still live on Kickstarters.
I see you've been out of the net. And NO, Mantic is not something that comes out in your local shop without you having difficulties getting it. Secondly, they do NOT keep their games stocked, and you are hit or miss on getting add on stuff in your FLGS.
League of Infamy
TerrainCrate 2: CRATE EXPECTATIONS
Hellboy: The Board Game
Kings of War: Vanguard - the fantasy skirmish wargame
TerrainCrate - Plastic, affordable, fantasy terrain!
SINCE Star Saga.
That's not the same thing. They still use KS because it's an effective launch platform that derisks the investment, they don't need it.
[/quote]I see you've been out of the net. And NO, Mantic is not something that comes out in your local shop without you having difficulties getting it. Secondly, they do NOT keep their games stocked, and you are hit or miss on getting add on stuff in your FLGS
I tried to get the 3rd edition Kings of War book at my local store and they could not order it for me. I can find it on Amazon though. I have credit at the store to burn and was hoping to use it for the book.
I see you've been out of the net. And NO, Mantic is not something that comes out in your local shop without you having difficulties getting it. Secondly, they do NOT keep their games stocked, and you are hit or miss on getting add on stuff in your FLGS
[/i]
I tried to get the 3rd edition Kings of War book at my local store and they could not order it for me. I can find it on Amazon though. I have credit at the store to burn and was hoping to use it for the book.
It might be worth Checking back. My FLGS couldn’t get the book in at release, but they have four copies on the shelf now. I think Mantic’s distributors “pulled a Northstar.”
Whatever it is in the end, it is literal years away. So anybody enjoying games set in the Old World right now is well advised to use any of the previous editions of WHF, or KoW, or 9th Age, or whatever other ruleset he/she prefers.
Darnok wrote: Whatever it is in the end, it is literal years away. So anybody enjoying games set in the Old World right now is well advised to use any of the previous editions of WHF, or KoW, or 9th Age, or whatever other ruleset he/she prefers.
The timing just after the release of KoW 3rd Ed is quite suspect though. Especially for such little meat in the sandwich.
Darnok wrote: Whatever it is in the end, it is literal years away. So anybody enjoying games set in the Old World right now is well advised to use any of the previous editions of WHF, or KoW, or 9th Age, or whatever other ruleset he/she prefers.
The timing just after the release of KoW 3rd Ed is quite suspect though. Especially for such little meat in the sandwich.
I mean, not too suspect. Mantic did this when AoS was released in 2015. In fact many of the armies that exist as analogues to WHFB armies got created for 2nd edition KoW as a way of taking GW's player base. I imagine releasing this tidbit as 3rd edition comes out is just them trying to take a shot right back at Mantic for what they did back in July of 2015.
That's not the same thing. They still use KS because it's an effective launch platform that derisks the investment, they don't need it.
It's a Burgerland thing - over there for a lot of folk if it doesn't exist in the FLGS, it doesn't exist at all. The idea that a company can sell direct online to people happily playing in homes and clubs is just so alien some US folks simply can't wrap their brain around it, and so obviously they must be living KS to KS.
Yodhrin wrote: It's a Burgerland thing - over there for a lot of folk if it doesn't exist in the FLGS, it doesn't exist at all. The idea that a company can sell direct online to people happily playing in homes and clubs is just so alien some US folks simply can't wrap their brain around it, and so obviously they must be living KS to KS.
No, we're fully aware. And we do often play in our homes and clubs. I run a private club, out of our homes and at recreation clubs. I also work a few hours in a FLGS. They are two different locations for two different kinds of gaming experience (you don't play Necromunda PUG in the FLGS, for example).
No. Now you are moving the goalpost on the conversation. Nevermind that Mantic doesn't continue to support games after the project is completed, and has to regurgitate projects on kickstarter…
That's not the same thing. They still use KS because it's an effective launch platform that derisks the investment, they don't need it.
It's a Burgerland thing - over there for a lot of folk if it doesn't exist in the FLGS, it doesn't exist at all. The idea that a company can sell direct online to people happily playing in homes and clubs is just so alien some US folks simply can't wrap their brain around it, and so obviously they must be living KS to KS.
That's not the same thing. They still use KS because it's an effective launch platform that derisks the investment, they don't need it.
It's a Burgerland thing - over there for a lot of folk if it doesn't exist in the FLGS, it doesn't exist at all. The idea that a company can sell direct online to people happily playing in homes and clubs is just so alien some US folks simply can't wrap their brain around it, and so obviously they must be living KS to KS.
Be cool. No one asked for that.
This isn't necessarily incorrect though. There IS the mindset here if it's not sold by a FLGS, it doesn't exist and there's a big stigma against ordering stuff online and playing in a store (whether you buy other things there, pay for a table or what) if the store doesn't have the product. Often this stigma is put in place by players (I've seen people in a group get openly hostile to someone suggesting they try a game that the store doesn't stock to the point where it looked for a minute like it might get into a physical altercation), but I have seen a few stores engage in it too and lose potential customers by not letting them play games that aren't sold in the store there.
I would absolutely believe that people have that mindset. Although to be honest I did feel for a while that Mantic seems to only do Kickstarters, maybe because they seem to do so many for every product they put out. Nothing is developed and then released, it's always through a Kickstarter.
Grot 6 wrote: No. Now you are moving the goalpost on the conversation. Nevermind that Mantic doesn't continue to support games after the project is completed, and has to regurgitate projects on kickstarter…
I guess we have missed a lot of their KS as I cannot remember all those Deadzone, Walking Dead and KoW Kickstarter that supported the games after the initial ones
I will echo that for a great swathe of people in my region if it is not sold or played in the FLGS it doesn't exist. The club people playing privately surely exist but they are invisible and prefer to be invisible, which feeds that misperception.
auticus wrote: I will echo that for a great swathe of people in my region if it is not sold or played in the FLGS it doesn't exist. The club people playing privately surely exist but they are invisible and prefer to be invisible, which feeds that misperception.
This is what I have also seen in the US in the Midwest, South, and West respectively.
Maybe it's relevant to the topic that there's a vast, incognito horde of club or home-based hobbyists driving many of GW's decisions that seem otherwise incomprehensible to store and tournament-based hobbyists.
For me, the trouble started with the pricing practices around 8th edition and the game mechanic changes to effectively double the average unit size.
That increased set up time and cost hugely, and then they added megaspells that could destroy your battle line in a single unstoppable cast, so you would spend ages setting up your army only to potentially pack it all away when someone blasted a save or die vortex across it.
Tried it, hated it, moved to KoW, never got any more games.
Da Boss wrote: For me, the trouble started with the pricing practices around 8th edition and the game mechanic changes to effectively double the average unit size.
That increased set up time and cost hugely, and then they added megaspells that could destroy your battle line in a single unstoppable cast, so you would spend ages setting up your army only to potentially pack it all away when someone blasted a save or die vortex across it.
Tried it, hated it, moved to KoW, never got any more games.
Yeah all of this snowballs around 2007 which also is when the LOTR bubble burst and the price of pewter skyrocketed. To recoup cost of continuing to support metal minis they had in their inventory GW cancelled the bits service (still salty about that), and began moving to plastic and lovely Failcast.
There are a lot of bad decisions and events that all came to a head all at once that basically helped to kill WHFB. Especially the design decisions for 8th and I say this as someone who really does enjoy 8th edition.
Honestly, if the LOTR bubble bursting was the only thing that happened in that time frame a lot of what happened later on would not of occurred. But it was a perfect storm of bad stuff happening and, franky, bad leadership at the top that lead to all this.
Mantic makes their money and survives from their Kickstarters alone.
Which is why they survived for years without kickstarter and decided they didn't need a kickstarter for the latest edition of KoW?
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
What was the last basic rank and file box GW released for Warhammer before it folded? State Troopers, Orcs, Goblins, Skinks, High Elf spearmen etc? Not elites or monsters, but the lowest level grunts. I can't remember now but it seems like nearly all those were from sixth edition or so. Some (zombies etc.) were from even earlier. The only one I can think of is the updated skeleton warriors, but not sure when they arrived on the scene.
For a game that is supposed to be rank and file, the neglect of the actual rank and file was a major reason for my losing interest. That is always the first thing I look for when thinking of starting or building on an army. I don't think gamers can be blamed for not buying those minis any more when other (and oftentimes better) alternatives were widely available. It seemed to me anyway that GW abandoned that space in favour for multi-part monster kits long before they canned the game completely. Hard to sustain a rank and file game when a company doesn't seem to much want to make new rank and file minis any more...
My hope is this new version sees a returned emphasis on those bottom level grunts. However how GW get back into what is now an extremely competitive market for cheap plastic fantasy minis will be interesting to see...
I think Rountree replacing Kirby is a major event in the timeline.
It may even see the split mending, at least a little. For the first time in more than a decade, I am interested in seeing what GW comes out with.
I lost interest in WHFB with 7th edition, and loathed 8th.
Still picked up the main rulebooks, but never played.
Up until then, I had multiple armies - anywhere from 1,000 to 2,500 points. Some I played, some I loaned to people so they could try the game.
Around 6th edition(?) it seemed that people were going from having and fielding multiple armies to just having one, perhaps because the tournament scene was beginning to dominate the game.
The groups I was gaming with at the time of fourth through sixth editions, most players had at least two armies, with many having three or four.
By the end of 6th edition, it seemed that having multiple armies had become the exception, not the rule.
It helped that fifth edition was the age of inexpensive boxes of large numbers of troops. You could field a nice large force for not that much money.
Then they started upping the prices, shrinking the boxes, and screwing up the rules.
I started playing KoW during the Alpha - and liked the rules a lot more than WHFB - better than 6th edition, and a lot more than 7th or 8th.
But I liked the Old World setting a lot more than Mantica.
So, I used KoW to run games in the third edition Warhammer version of The Old World.(3rd edition of Warhammer remains my favorite - a decadent and corrupt Brettonia, Karl Franz a weakling put on the throne of Empire by Elector Counts that wanted a weak Emperor that would let them have their way. And Chaos eating away at the roots of everything - an Enemy Within.)
And it worked.
Until Rountree replaced Kirby, I was among those convinced that GW was not long for the world - their losing half their value on the stock market inside of a month did not encourage optimism.
I am now... cautiously optimistic - Rountree is most definitely not Kirby - and has reversed a lot of the worst decisions that Kirby and the Kronies(TM) had initiated.
Merret is gone, and with him some of the more iron bound idiocies.
Unlike Kirby, Rountree is willing to admit that mistakes have been made, and change course - steering the Titanic away from the iceberg up ahead. (Close enough to peel the paint off the hull as she veered away.) I am continually astonished at how fast and thoroughly Rountree has improved the outlook for the company.
I still am not buying much GW - not fond of the current aesthetics* - but I am no longer avoiding GW because I loathe the company. This is a major change - it means that if GW does produce something that interests me, I won't turn away going, 'yeah, but it's GW'.
So, when something like Contrast paints catches my eye, I am willing to give it a chance. (I don't use it for what it is intended for - but you can get some very interesting effects using Contrast paints over metallics - I have never been happier with a verdigris effect than using a contrast green over copper or bronze.)
And I do not think I am alone in being willing to give GW another chance.
GW has turned a corner, and is doing much, much better without Kirby.
As for WH:tOW - I look forward to seeing it - and if the miniatures are a return, at least in part, to the aesthetics of earlier editions, and are not as ridiculously priced as the half units that they were selling towards the end of WHFB, I may very well be investing in a few armies.
If not, well, KoW will still be around.
And if the models are good, but the rules suck, or are decent but overly complicated... KoW really doesn't care what minis get used. (We have sixteen players in our KoW group - and six or eight more in our Kids of War group of younger players - you can actually teach the KoW rules to a nine year old**.)
But I am hoping that both.
*EDIT* For the sake of completeness - year before last I ran a six month Gorka Morka campaign and I have also been running an annual Mordheim campaign - and fully intend to get into Newcromunda at some point. The smaller skirmish campaign games still warm my heart. And I do like most of the aesthetics for Newcromunda. But our baby girl keeps insisting on eating our wallets.
The Auld Grump
* I am one of those people that backs Oldhammer Kickstarters.
** She inherited her Abyssal Dwarf army from her father's Chaos Dwarf army from way back when. She has done a better job of painting the models than he did. She also uses them for duergar - who are a major enemy in her Pathfinder game, along with fire giants. She's eleven years old now, and still playing.
TheAuldGrump wrote: I think Rountree replacing Kirby is a major event in the timeline.
It may even see the split mending, at least a little. For the first time in more than a decade, I am interested in seeing what GW comes out with.
I lost interest in WHFB with 7th edition, and loathed 8th.
Still picked up the main rulebooks, but never played.
Up until then, I had multiple armies - anywhere from 1,000 to 2,500 points. Some I played, some I loaned to people so they could try the game.
Around 6th edition(?) it seemed that people were going from having and fielding multiple armies to just having one, perhaps because the tournament scene was beginning to dominate the game.
The groups I was gaming with at the time of fourth through sixth editions, most players had at least two armies, with many having three or four.
By the end of 6th edition, it seemed that having multiple armies had become the exception, not the rule.
It helped that fifth edition was the age of inexpensive boxes of large numbers of troops. You could field a nice large force for not that much money.
Then they started upping the prices, shrinking the boxes, and screwing up the rules.
I started playing KoW during the Alpha - and liked the rules a lot more than WHFB - better than 6th edition, and a lot more than 7th or 8th.
But I liked the Old World setting a lot more than Mantica.
So, I used KoW to run games in the third edition Warhammer version of The Old World.(3rd edition of Warhammer remains my favorite - a decadent and corrupt Brettonia, Karl Franz a weakling put on the throne of Empire by Elector Counts that wanted a weak Emperor that would let them have their way. And Chaos eating away at the roots of everything - an Enemy Within.)
And it worked.
Until Rountree replaced Kirby, I was among those convinced that GW was not long for the world - their losing half their value on the stock market inside of a month did not encourage optimism.
I am now... cautiously optimistic - Rountree is most definitely not Kirby - and has reversed a lot of the worst decisions that Kirby and the Kronies(TM) had initiated.
Merret is gone, and with him some of the more iron bound idiocies.
Unlike Kirby, Rountree is willing to admit that mistakes have been made, and change course - steering the Titanic away from the iceberg up ahead. (Close enough to peel the paint off the hull as she veered away.) I am continually astonished at how fast and thoroughly Rountree has improved the outlook for the company.
I still am not buying much GW - not fond of the current aesthetics* - but I am no longer avoiding GW because I loathe the company. This is a major change - it means that if GW does produce something that interests me, I won't turn away going, 'yeah, but it's GW'.
So, when something like Contrast paints catches my eye, I am willing to give it a chance. (I don't use it for what it is intended for - but you can get some very interesting effects using Contrast paints over metallics - I have never been happier with a verdigris effect than using a contrast green over copper or bronze.)
And I do not think I am alone in being willing to give GW another chance.
GW has turned a corner, and is doing much, much better without Kirby.
As for WH:tOW - I look forward to seeing it - and if the miniatures are a return, at least in part, to the aesthetics of earlier editions, and are not as ridiculously priced as the half units that they were selling towards the end of WHFB, I may very well be investing in a few armies.
If not, well, KoW will still be around.
And if the models are good, but the rules suck, or are decent but overly complicated... KoW really doesn't care what minis get used. (We have sixteen players in our KoW group - and six or eight more in our Kids of War group of younger players - you can actually teach the KoW rules to a nine year old**.)
But I am hoping that both.
*EDIT* For the sake of completeness - year before last I ran a six month Gorka Morka campaign and I have also been running an annual Mordheim campaign - and fully intend to get into Newcromunda at some point. The smaller skirmish campaign games still warm my heart. And I do like most of the aesthetics for Newcromunda. But our baby girl keeps insisting on eating our wallets.
The Auld Grump
* I am one of those people that backs Oldhammer Kickstarters.
** She inherited her Abyssal Dwarf army from her father's Chaos Dwarf army from way back when. She has done a better job of painting the models than he did. She also uses them for duergar - who are a major enemy in her Pathfinder game, along with fire giants. She's eleven years old now, and still playing.
Quick note: 7th was when they started doing the price hike/model reduction shenanigans. If memory serves, 7th also hit before 2007 as I took the rulebook from the Skull Pass set with me on my deployment.
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Nurglitch wrote: Maybe it's relevant to the topic that there's a vast, incognito horde of club or home-based hobbyists driving many of GW's decisions that seem otherwise incomprehensible to store and tournament-based hobbyists.
It's entirely relevant since that's literally how LotR worked for forever past the initial craze. Dakkaites were convinced the game was dead because they never saw anyone play it because they couldn't accept that people were playing it outside of store because of how hostile other GW players were towards LotR.
Mantic has always made most of their business from online ordering, having started in that realm. My FLGS has sometimes stocked their buy-once products like the spin off boardgames, but never the miniature games themselves. I got the impression that since Mantic isn't above offering their own products at below retail value with deals on shipping, it makes it a hard bargain to stock something on a shelf that could be costing more than the online order direct from mantic.
I think they were mostly using kickstarter to generate buzz for new product lines. Its a common strategy, one pioneered by Steve Jackson games, who you probably wouldn't make the same accusation about despite their constant kickstarting.
ChargerIIC wrote: Mantic has always made most of their business from online ordering, having started in that realm. My FLGS has sometimes stocked their buy-once products like the spin off boardgames, but never the miniature games themselves. I got the impression that since Mantic isn't above offering their own products at below retail value with deals on shipping, it makes it a hard bargain to stock something on a shelf that could be costing more than the online order direct from mantic.
I think they were mostly using kickstarter to generate buzz for new product lines. Its a common strategy, one pioneered by Steve Jackson games, who you probably wouldn't make the same accusation about despite their constant kickstarting.
Kickstarters can be a great way to get the message out there and partial backing, but just like Palladium books you need to follow through with what you promise or pay dearly. Both SJG and Mantic do this very well, they use the medium as a starter platform
and hopes that it also generates retail sales with it.
But back to topic, I hold the separation 100% on Kirby, At the end it was making very questionable choices. He was the one in charge. Someone could have had the perfect idea to fix everything but up to him to allow it.
Rules and miniatures go hand in hand, seen players buy up models that didn't look that great but had awesome rules for them. And I personally have bought figures that were awful in the game but I still liked them.
Separation of the community was the only path.. it caused a loss in sales that ultimately got rid of Kirby..
I am cautiously interested. I thought I would never buy a GW product again after 7th edition WHFB and 5th edition or so 40K.
I was very happy playing other games with other models. However, with the resurgence of Specialist Games I have found myself spending money on GW again.
But back to topic, I hold the separation 100% on Kirby, At the end it was making very questionable choices. He was the one in charge. Someone could have had the perfect idea to fix everything but up to him to allow it.
Rules and miniatures go hand in hand, seen players buy up models that didn't look that great but had awesome rules for them. And I personally have bought figures that were awful in the game but I still liked them.
Separation of the community was the only path.. it caused a loss in sales that ultimately got rid of Kirby..
I mean it all does boil down to him but quite a bit of what he was doing is a result of restructuring due to a huge loss of revenue (LOTR) and a large increase in production cost (Pewter prices skyrocketing). Basically all the horrible decisions that happened starting in 2007 all the way up to late 2014 are on him.
I get that he had to cut corners to save money which is why a lot of the decisions were made. However, producing plastic kits for the same price as their metal counterparts while also introducing finecast as a replacement for pewter AND hiking the price for an inferior medium....man none of that helped.
Quick note: 7th was when they started doing the price hike/model reduction shenanigans. If memory serves, 7th also hit before 2007 as I took the rulebook from the Skull Pass set with me on my deployment.
I think this is correct because the WE book I bought in 09, the shop guy informed me, was the 6th ed book, and that WE were "not in a good way" at the time, because they hadn't been updated in forever, and were unlikely to see an update before any new editions came along.
This, IMO, brings up one of the big problems with the direction that old fantasy went in. . . In 40k, every single player that I personally know who has picked up 40k and played for longer than a calendar year picks up more than one army. . . I don't know what it is about 40k specifically, but everyone I know has 2, 3 or 4+ armies of 2,000 points or more each. There's a lot of dabbling and expanding/mixing and matching that goes on. . . On the fantasy side, all the players I personally knew who played old fantasy had 1 army. The cost/size of that 1 army made it very difficult for them to justify getting into a second or even dare i say a third army. Of the 2 dozen or so gamers I personally know, only 1 had multiple fantasy armies and thats because he was in his 50s when I met him, he'd never married and GW was his only hobby outside of watching the local pro baseball team.
From a "model company" perspective, the model count of old fantasy was providing them a fairly unsustainable business model, and so blowing up the world, moving to AoS allowed them to reboot their thinking and move the one thing they need to make money on.
Hmm.. It's totally the other way round in my place.
I started off with O&G, which is my main fantasy army. In 2001, I picked up some Necrons, and that's it for me with 40k.
I started Dark Elves in 2003 or so, and added Beastmen in 2012, and High Elves in 2016. Dwarves 2016 too, but I haven't played yet with them as I have a lot of minis to paint still.
I love the Old World but I am not excited for this. GW is gonna screw it up. They are going to -violate- it hardcore
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JoV wrote: What was the last basic rank and file box GW released for Warhammer before it folded? State Troopers, Orcs, Goblins, Skinks, High Elf spearmen etc? Not elites or monsters, but the lowest level grunts. I can't remember now but it seems like nearly all those were from sixth edition or so. Some (zombies etc.) were from even earlier. The only one I can think of is the updated skeleton warriors, but not sure when they arrived on the scene.
For a game that is supposed to be rank and file, the neglect of the actual rank and file was a major reason for my losing interest. That is always the first thing I look for when thinking of starting or building on an army. I don't think gamers can be blamed for not buying those minis any more when other (and oftentimes better) alternatives were widely available. It seemed to me anyway that GW abandoned that space in favour for multi-part monster kits long before they canned the game completely. Hard to sustain a rank and file game when a company doesn't seem to much want to make new rank and file minis any more...
My hope is this new version sees a returned emphasis on those bottom level grunts. However how GW get back into what is now an extremely competitive market for cheap plastic fantasy minis will be interesting to see...
Exactly. Basic troops are what dictate if I like an army or not. Not Characters or tanks or monsters. If an army doesnt have a good looking core, then I just wont eat it
Nurglitch wrote: Maybe it's relevant to the topic that there's a vast, incognito horde of club or home-based hobbyists driving many of GW's decisions that seem otherwise incomprehensible to store and tournament-based hobbyists.
It's entirely relevant since that's literally how LotR worked for forever past the initial craze. Dakkaites were convinced the game was dead because they never saw anyone play it because they couldn't accept that people were playing it outside of store because of how hostile other GW players were towards LotR.
Our KoW games are likewise run at people's houses - not at stores.
It is a less sales driven game - and our players use minis from all over the place, with a majority being older GW minis, mostly from fifth and sixth editions. (More and more from other companies as the older GW models are replaced. I am in on a Not-Tomb Kings KS....)
*EDIT* One player bought up a bunch of the skaven from Island of Blood. He has a freakin' 'uge army.
I think the KoW Alpha was in 2010, but I won't swear to it. Unlike a lot of folks, I like the Mantic elves and dwarfs. (I use the eles as sidhe in my RPGs...nasty, pale fey.)
The Auld Grump - but still not as much as I like their undead.
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Given that neither of those are for Kings of War 3rd edition, Grot 6, I'm not sure what from dyndraig's last post you're trying to disprove.
Nor, after looking at the two KS pages, am I quite sure what the months you reference are all about. KoW Vanguard closed its funding period in November 2017, while TerrainCrate 2 closed in March 2019.
I don't understand the 40k armies were cheaper than fantasy armies.
My 40k armies and my fantasy armies were very close to the same model count and very close to the same cost.
Maybe it just seemed like more because the steadfast garbage made people go out and buy 100 models for one unit but in the end I think it came out in the wash.
auticus wrote: I don't understand the 40k armies were cheaper than fantasy armies.
My 40k armies and my fantasy armies were very close to the same model count and very close to the same cost.
Maybe it just seemed like more because the steadfast garbage made people go out and buy 100 models for one unit but in the end I think it came out in the wash.
Depends on the army I guess. My gaming buddy and I were looking at getting into WHFB around the End Times. I was very much into Vampire Counts but I was finding the idea of needing to be fielding 50 model blocks of skeletons for something silly like 2 points per model (and near £1 per point!) pretty off-putting. I'm not sure anything in 40K has chaff units at the same level as undead and skaven in WHFB.
Skeletons were 8 pts a model in 8th, but I understand your points. The chaffe armies were skaven and goblins, which would routinely field 100-200 model UNITS (plural).
I played chaos, dark elves, tomb kings primarily and all three of those armies had around 70-80 models total.
Compared to my necrons, chaos 40k, and eldar, which were also about 70 models with the exception of my eldar which were in the 40s.
I'd say the majority of whfb armies were around 50-80 models on average with the outliers going into the hundreds. Those certainly would cost a lot more if you were interested in that type of army.
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Ok...but, like...why does it matter that they use Kickstarters? What exactly is the negative? I don't really understand where this "Finance shaming" thing is coming from.
auticus wrote: I don't understand the 40k armies were cheaper than fantasy armies.
My 40k armies and my fantasy armies were very close to the same model count and very close to the same cost.
Maybe it just seemed like more because the steadfast garbage made people go out and buy 100 models for one unit but in the end I think it came out in the wash.
depending on the faction and what you wanted to play Imperial State Troops were 30€ for 10 and you needed 20-30 models for a unit (and 20 were a useless core tax doing nothing within the game) and the expensive elite being 45€ for 10 (the famous more expensive than metal box).
Going for 40k during that time was kind of cheap, as the 10 Marines for 30€ got you one unit and you got the whole army for the same price that you needed to just fill the core in Fantasy
Changed of course as 40k proceeded.
But same now, going for FEC in AoS and you are done with 2 starter boxes and still be competitive.
Going for Stormcast or Marines on tournament level (so discounted boxes are useless and/or not worth to get twice) will cost you much more
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Given that neither of those are for Kings of War 3rd edition, Grot 6, I'm not sure what from dyndraig's last post you're trying to disprove.
Nor, after looking at the two KS pages, am I quite sure what the months you reference are all about. KoW Vanguard closed its funding period in November 2017, while TerrainCrate 2 closed in March 2019.
I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids! Disproving what? I'm talking Mantic using Kickstarter to survive. THAT guy was the one talking about KOW. He said that they haven't run a kickstarter this year, I just posted where they did. And BTW- This isn't the first time that Mantic ran Kickstarters to fund past Kickstarters… That was a running joke back in the day. Heck, I didn't even need to talk about Here's Neegan, or the All Out War Walking Dead game, and add ons. Mars Attacks, or the Necromunda/ Kill Team rip off.
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Ok...but, like...why does it matter that they use Kickstarters? What exactly is the negative? I don't really understand where this "Finance shaming" thing is coming from.
Because Mantic runs their business on Kickstarters and is unreliable. Doesn't matter that they use Kickstarter, what matters is that they are unreliable.
I don't understand where you got "Finance Shamming from either. You should explain yourself.
Because Mantic runs their business on Kickstarters and is unreliable. Doesn't matter that they use Kickstarter, what matters is that they are unreliable.
I don't understand where you got "Finance Shamming from either. You should explain yourself.
Its unreliable based on what though? I'm not the one making the claim that Kickstarters are bad. Have they had a failed kickstarter? Have they shown to be unreliable in Mantics case? When Mantic does a Kickstarter they all seem to succeed. Mantic does not have the failed track record like, lets say, Shield Wolf Miniatures does. Now they had a kickstarter or two fail. They then went back, retooled what was being offered and did it again and it succeeded.
The whole idea that a small company MUST subject themselves to finance system in order to get loans to run their business and get funding to produce their product is an outdated model. Why should a company like Mantic subject themselves to that when they can bypass the middleman and go right to the consumer for their financing of projects?
Even if they DO have a failed kickstarter, what does that mean? "This particular product is not sufficiently popular enough to be profitable." So they dodged a bullet by not getting a bank loan to produce a product that doesn't end up selling and can, potentially, lead to the whole company going belly up.
The point I'm making about 'Finance shaming" is that just because a company does not want to engage in the "Old School" way of doing things is not a bug nor unreliable. Yeah, maybe they do a kickstarter and it fails to launch...isn't that better then producing a product that ends up losing you money and threaten the whole enterprise?
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Given that neither of those are for Kings of War 3rd edition, Grot 6, I'm not sure what from dyndraig's last post you're trying to disprove.
Nor, after looking at the two KS pages, am I quite sure what the months you reference are all about. KoW Vanguard closed its funding period in November 2017, while TerrainCrate 2 closed in March 2019.
I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids! Disproving what? I'm talking Mantic using Kickstarter to survive. THAT guy was the one talking about KOW. He said that they haven't run a kickstarter this year, I just posted where they did. And BTW- This isn't the first time that Mantic ran Kickstarters to fund past Kickstarters… That was a running joke back in the day. Heck, I didn't even need to talk about Here's Neegan, or the All Out War Walking Dead game, and add ons. Mars Attacks, or the Necromunda/ Kill Team rip off.
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Ok...but, like...why does it matter that they use Kickstarters? What exactly is the negative? I don't really understand where this "Finance shaming" thing is coming from.
Because Mantic runs their business on Kickstarters and is unreliable. Doesn't matter that they use Kickstarter, what matters is that they are unreliable.
I don't understand where you got "Finance Shamming from either. You should explain yourself.
Honestly, I dont know what you are trying to prove here. I have already proven that Mantic went years without using a KS and that they recently released the latest version of their flagship product without using KS. I never claimed they didn't run a KS this year, not sure where you got that from
Seriously, that was when Mannfred succeeded in casting all of Sylvania into permanent darkness, setting things up for Nagash's return).
