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It would seem that we're about to turn full circle with the recent announcement that Warhammer Fantasy is returning. I'm casually thinking about writing a short timeline with key events along the way that lead up to the demise of WHFB and the splitting of the community, as a quick shorthand for the future. It would be something like this, though I'd appreciate if you could help me out by pinning years onto the earlier events in particular, and chip in with possible other milestones.


- Games Workshop (GW) loses the costly Chapterhouse Studio​ court case, triggering its CEO Tom Kirby to look critically at GW's IP (though with a faulty understanding of intellectual property laws) in order to cut away the most generic and historically based aspects to protect it from competitors. Warhammer Fantasy Battles (WHFB), already performing poorly financially, is deemed a lost cause. The setting and wargame are ordered to be replaced with something more IP-secure, over the studio's protests.

- Games Workshop announce that they are a miniature company, in response to criticism over issues of wargame rules, not least regarding balance or lack thereof.

- Creative Assembly (CA) gains the right to produce Total War: Warhammer games.

- The Swedish Composition System (SCS) is launched to account for the worst excesses of rules imbalance in WHFB. Sweden, being peripheral in the hobby, has a thin presence of Games Workshop stores and has seen no tournaments hosted by Games Workshop for many years. Its community is as a result already independently minded. The SCS is adopted internationally by various tournaments.

2015 - Games Workshop launches the End Times, a series of four campaign books with miniature releases set to conclude story arcs in a hitherto static setting and end WHFB. The End Times create a surge of interest and activity among hobbyists while the event lasts.

2015 - Games Workshop replaces WHFB (until then a monolith dominating its niche) by launching Age of Sigmar (AoS), a setting designed to not be generic nor historically based fantasy for IP reasons. This ending of much-beloved and immersive Warhammer Fantasy Battles (1983-2015) results in the first ever huge split in its community (Oldhammer movement notwithstanding), and a collapse in the numbers of active hobbyists. The initial version of Age of Sigmar rules are very short and are launched without a points system. Existing tournaments such as European Team Championship (ETC) reject the non-competitive rules and continue to play WHFB's 8th edition for a while.

2015 - Mantic Games announce that all those who played WHFB will find a home for all their respective armies in its fantasy wargame Kings of War (KoW). The coming years will see many different companies attempt to fill out the void of the massed fantasy wargame niche left behind by GW's withdrawal of WHFB, including among others Osprey Games' Oathmark and Dragon Rampant, and A Song of Ice & Fire Tabletop Game.

2015 - Tom Kirby resigns as CEO of Games Workshop. He is replaced by Kevin Rountree, who himself play wargames and have insights into what customers want. Rountree will launch a number of new initiatives to invigorate Games Workshop, not least in the marketing department. One early reform is the introduction of a points system to Age of Sigmar, which goes on to become a commercial success that attracts both old and new players. Yet Warhammer Fantasy remains missed, and some continue to play its old editions.

2016 - Creative Assembly release Total War: Warhammer. A surge of new interest in its setting and accompanying tabletop wargame are met in GW stores with the news that WHFB has been ended and replaced with AoS. CA will continue to release new instalments to Total War: Warhammer, both of an acclaimed high standard and true to the setting. The computer games are a commercial success.

- The community-driven wargame the Ninth Age (T9A) is launched. Several of those previously involved in the Swedish Composition System are part of its large crew. The Ninth Age summarize all armies found in WHFB by including units not supported in later editions, and develops a rule set aimed for competitive balance. The Ninth Age develops the most balanced rank & file fantasy wargame seen to date, yet it will have problems reaching out to casual wargamers, while others find issue with T9A developing its own setting instead of being an unofficial WHFB fan project. Nevertheless the Ninth Age quickly becomes the largest community-developed fantasy wargame following the cancellation of WHFB. Many of the small fantasy miniature producers sign up as supporting companies of T9A.

2019 - Games Workshop announce that they will bring back Warhammer Fantasy to tabletop within the coming 2-3 years. The news spread through fantasy wargaming communities like wildfire, a testament to Warhammer Fantasy's enduring allure and immersion attained from over 30 years of development by many learned minds and skilled hands. Excitement and interest are shown by many hobbyists who have been inactive since the End Times.

I wonder how kicked-in-the-nuts Mantic feels. They just announce their coming 3rd edition of Kings of War, and now GW throws this into the air. Probably will hurt their sales

 cuda1179 wrote:
I wonder how kicked-in-the-nuts Mantic feels. They just announce their coming 3rd edition of Kings of War, and now GW throws this into the air. Probably will hurt their sales

It will probably do the opposite (i.e. be good for Mantic). Warhammer generates interest in rank and file, but wholesale Warhammer is not available yet, and models are limited to 2h ebay armies or alternatives (like KOW). While perhaps not the majority, a handful of people who pick up some KOW minis in the meantime may delve into the system before WH is released, and either way Mantic get some sales.

There is also the possibility of GW doing such a bad job, that KOW can profit from the generated interest and the frustration of it .

Then again considering how GW get's treated somethimes as the be all end all of Hobby supplies i doubt that effect.

Are you sure about this chapter house thing ? They may have lost it but destroying WFB because they lost it seems...huge.
And I never heard about SCS, was it popular in America ?

 godardc wrote:
Are you sure about this chapter house thing ? They may have lost it but destroying WFB because they lost it seems...huge.
And I never heard about SCS, was it popular in America ?

Chapterhouse is huge,and was even more so . There is a reason why alot of hq choices just vanished and or units.

So is old school fantasy going to sit alongside AoS? How’s this going to work in practice?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
So is old school fantasy going to sit alongside AoS? How’s this going to work in practice?

Same way Lord of the Rings sits alongside AoS now along with any 3rd party competing games; and the same as Horus Heresy sits alongside AoS.

Honestly there's a lot of "GW can only run one fantasy game" panic going around which is rather bemusing. Right now it looks like GW is going to have AoS as their core game and then a side game of Old World. If you look at Horus Heresy it hardly resulted in the end of 40K.

The fantasy version of the Horus Hersey...now I get it!

points you may add:

2000-2006, 6th Edition Warhammer is released with a re-worked rules set and army list booklet to have all armies on the same level, going from a more RPG/Hero focused game to a troop focused one.
It becomes the dominant TableTop tournament game in a lot of countries (replacing Battletech in some, which already struggled in the late 90ies because of unliked changes to the game)

2006-2010, during early 7th Edition GW declines/refuses to give official FAQ/Errata with a "we don't make mistakes" statement, leading to different community comps.

"Lore of Akito" is the dominant Community Comp in German Speaking countries and compensating most flaws of Warhammer by that time (including FAQ/Errata for armies not updated by GW).
It is replaced by SCS after ETC uses it in 8th.

2009, a disappointed Alessio Cavatore starts creating Kings of War after the statement "that he can write a much better game on 20 pages total if GW would give him some freedom in development" was heard by Ronni Renton from Mantic Games in a pub.

2009, GW released War of the Rings, a R&F Ruleset to be used with their LotR models, considered by some people the better Fantasy game by that time and attracts Warhammer players who stayed away from the Skirmish game before

2015, LotR is hit by GW's "double the price half the box" strategy to maximize profits (literally, former 24 model boxes were replaced by 12 model boxes for double the price of the old box) but unlike the Warhammer Community, LotR gamers did not stayed loyal to GW and the game was basically dead over night.

2016, after Kirby resigned (and AoS fails) AoS gets a major update making a community comp official and changes the game from the ground up

2018, 2nd Edition AoS is released

2019, 3rd Edition Kings of War was released, again with a main book and a dupplement compatible with former Warhammer Armies

is this legitimately whats happening? or is it still just hearsay?

I just saw this, funny.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=794774804299081

 cuda1179 wrote:
I just saw this, funny.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=794774804299081

The responses on twitter were funnier, though.

I think you need to go back to Storm of Chaos for a lot of the rift. If I recall, it was supposed to be a worldwide event where the fans determined the outcome...which GW sabotaged to maintain the status quo. However, the fiction written after this advanced the story, and was highly regarded. Popular characters died. The setting changed. This is the first time I can remember the story/setting split among the fandom.

Then, a few years later, GW retconned it so the Storm of Chaos never happened. Then they introduced Storm of Magic and a bunch of other changes to the lore. Meanwhile, Black Library were adding hints of a deeper lore and overarching story that generated a lot of discussion in background circles. FW were releasing some kind of end times scenario book series (written in part by Priestley, I think), and the reception was divisive to say the least. I'm not sure if they ever released more than one book for that series.

There were also cascading rules-writing failures throughout 7th and 8th that lead to the very vocal "stop adding new things and balance it all perfectly first!!!" faction. Combine that with the infamous Gold$word$ era price hikes, and the fandom became very toxic. WHFB was in an unrecoverable spiral before they blew up the Old World, and it was entirely preventable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nels1031 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I just saw this, funny.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=794774804299081

The responses on twitter were funnier, though.

Please share some.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I just saw this, funny.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=794774804299081

The responses on twitter were funnier, though.

Please share some.

At work so can't really link to the tweets, but here's some copy paste.










Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, not at all unbiased right here:

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
The Ninth Age develops the most balanced rank & file fantasy wargame seen to date,

Not a fan of KoW or T9A, but just from following both communities because of hobby, I'd say KoW has T9A beat when it comes to balance, IMO.And thats not mentioning any of the smaller ones who have tried to fill the void left by WHFB.

Mantic may have missed its chance. They've always been held back by terrible models. GW produces overly busy and overly expensive miniatures...but Mantic just doesn't deliver the goods on most of their miniatures. Mantic can only make so much money selling a rulebook. There are a lot of other companies out there now producing quality plastic fantasy miniatures - though mostly in a more toned down, Tolkien-esque style. Very LOTR or Game of Thrones, etc.

Mantic used to sell underwhelming miniatures because they were dirt cheap - the prices haven't stayed that way. What they need is a serious new sculptor line-up and a revamp of their core aesthetic. It would help tremendously.

If GW is actually going to re-released WFB...I don't know how it will fare. Will AoS lose attention/model releases? Will the games compete with each other? Will models be usable in both games? WFB was a failed product line previously, will this happen again and put a nail in the coffin? Will GW try to sell 10 Empire Spearmen for $60 when the game required regiments of 20-30 models etc. Will they bring back the Old World merely for board games and skirmish games, etc. I'd argue that aside from selling models, this'll be the biggest gamble GW has taken in a long time. If they cock it up, it'll kill the Old World stone-dead. Even more so than it is currently. If sales don't carry it...it'll be bad news.

WHF failed because of rules bloat, ridiculous model costs (due to you needing so many to field an army). But i'd say the main issue for me when the game was alive would be the rules. It was always a bit 'much' I would say. With the success of Warcry and other simpler games it seems like people might prefer a more lean ruleset. One of the reasons I prefer bolt action over 40k is the same reason. Lean rules, still feels thematic. But 40k borders on trying to be a simulator, including rules for everything imaginable and it all stacks up and feels overwhelming to me. (like sob miracle dice, just more stuff to keep track of annoying me).

I think if they bring back WHF they need to find a way to make the game more accessible and affordable than it was.

They need to make Risk: Old World....

The problem Mantic has isn't just the quality of sculpt its the whole design ethos of them. They feel like they are 20 odd years back in design style; which I'm sure fills a specific niche in the market, just possibly not as large a one as more "modern" designs would have. Which is a shame because a good few of their armies have some really neat concepts behind them that I'd be interested in.

The other issue is that they've made themselves more of a rules system than a game system, whch is bad for their miniature sales because loads of people make that one purchase of the Kings of War rulebook and then, instead of buying up miniatures, they are using GW or any other brand of model.

Mantic is almost like a 5-15mm game company trying to work in the 28mm market.

 Elbows wrote:
Mantic may have missed its chance.

I've thought that for a long time. The window was open from the time that it was apparent that WHFB was being killed off to the point where GW finally gave AoS points in the first Generals Handbook. Once GHB1 dropped, GW has kept their foot on the pedal. I always felt that Mantic's lack of urgency was either a belief that the RNF market wasn't worth aggressively pursuing or that they just felt AoS would never recover from its disastrous launch and all they had to do was wait for folks to come to them. I think even T9A was smoking KoW on tourney attendance for a short while before it started its current decline.

I admit I'd more readily throw money at Mantic and play KoW than anything GW has or will write....but I'll be damned if I use Mantic's sub-par miniatures.

It's probably going to be a bit like Apocalypse, and not like how you remember WHFB.

 Thargrim wrote:
WHF failed because of rules bloat, ridiculous model costs (due to you needing so many to field an army). But i'd say the main issue for me when the game was alive would be the rules. It was always a bit 'much' I would say. With the success of Warcry and other simpler games it seems like people might prefer a more lean ruleset. One of the reasons I prefer bolt action over 40k is the same reason. Lean rules, still feels thematic. But 40k borders on trying to be a simulator, including rules for everything imaginable and it all stacks up and feels overwhelming to me. (like sob miracle dice, just more stuff to keep track of annoying me).

I think if they bring back WHF they need to find a way to make the game more accessible and affordable than it was.

Not just rules bloat, but complexity and definite issues in rule interactions, and very real problems with "losing at deployment". . . I played one game of Fantasy with my Ogre Kingdoms, and it wasn't even the final edition (I think), and that experience largely put me off the entire fantasy concept, even though I definitely liked more of the models in the fantasy range than I did 40k at the time.

Elbows wrote:Mantic may have missed its chance. They've always been held back by terrible models.

Overread wrote:The problem Mantic has isn't just the quality of sculpt its the whole design ethos of them.

I am still surprised that the main argument against a game that makes clear that you can use whatever miniatures you like, are the bad models

Maybe this is the main problem for KoW since the start, that people did not get that the early product line as cheap models alternative to GW, and the game Kings of War, as better balanced alternative to Warhammer, were not really related.

Of course this changed as soon as Mantic realised that people decline KoW because of the "bad models" and started to stop going the direction to support Warhammer Armies and doing their own thing (which worked very well for them with Deadzone)

nels1031 wrote:I've thought that for a long time. The window was open from the time that it was apparent that WHFB was being killed off to the point where GW finally gave AoS points in the first Generals Handbook. Once GHB1 dropped, GW has kept their foot on the pedal. I always felt that Mantic's lack of urgency was either a belief that the RNF market wasn't worth aggressively pursuing or that they just felt AoS would never recover from its disastrous launch and all they had to do was wait for folks to come to them

Mantic pushed King of War from its beginning as a better balanced Warhammer alternative, already at the start of 8th Edition long before AoS was a thing, it was just the same as with all those World of Warcraft alternatives.
People did not wanted to have an alternative game, they just wanted the main company to deliver a better product (or a 1:1 copy without the flaws) and never really thought of switching over to something else.

Same with Warhammer Online by that time, it was a great game, but people did not like it because it was "not like WoW" and did not even try to get into the differences as everything was treated like in the other game and as it did not work out well they quit.

People rather switched to 40k, or quit the hobby than looking into first edition of KoW during Warhammer 8th

Problem for KoW is also that it is a real Rank&File game with all the advantages and disadvantages, while Warhammer was always kind of a Skirmish game with special unit formations.
And of course people who wanted to have single models mechanics, never felt home, with none of the R&F games out there.

nels1031 wrote:I think even T9A was smoking KoW on tourney attendance for a short while before it started its current decline.

As the european Tabletop Tournament scene is driven by the ETC, and the ETC early on decided to rather create a Community Version of 8th Edition than to switch to Kings of War (because of the models), or AoS it was very clear that neither game will be a thing for tournaments

Which is not a big surprise as those who stayed until Endtimes really liked 8th Fantasy and KoW was everything that this was not

AoS, while popular elsewhere, still pretty much not exists in the German tournament scene and T9A is the main Fantasy game (and 40k the dominat tournament game, next to X-Wing)

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
2015 - Games Workshop launches the End Times, a series of four campaign books with miniature releases set to conclude story arcs in a hitherto static setting and end WHFB. The End Times create a surge of interest and activity among hobbyists while the event lasts.

Since this hasn't been pointed out yet, End Times started in late summer 2014 with the release of Nagash. I think it was August, but might have been September instead.

 kodos wrote:

Elbows wrote:Mantic may have missed its chance. They've always been held back by terrible models.

Overread wrote:The problem Mantic has isn't just the quality of sculpt its the whole design ethos of them.

I am still surprised that the main argument against a game that makes clear that you can use whatever miniatures you like, are the bad models

Maybe this is the main problem for KoW since the start, that people did not get that the early product line as cheap models alternative to GW, and the game Kings of War, as better balanced alternative to Warhammer, were not really related.

Thing is what draws us to the games is the visual side of things. The reason we play wargames isn't for the rules alone, the whole experience includes the visual aspect, which is models. The best way for Kings of War to advertise their product is with their models not their rulebook and on their website there are loads of photos of their models. So when someone thinks about using their game that is what they see and that is what gives them their first impressions of it. In addition if they see a Kings of War game with Warhammer models it just looks like a warhammer game pretty much save that the units are in blocks instead of free moving.

GW realises this and its partly why they've pushed for their high quality models. When you will likely spend more hours building and painting your army than playing them the models are very critical to the experience. Plus its much easier to say "I won't play AoS" when you're buying everything from another company. IF the only thing you're not buying is 1 battletome and not downloading the free rules off the internet; it becomes much harder to separate yourself fully and not try out the other game. An aspect that was easy early one when AoS had no rules; but now with 2.0 becoming much stronger and very close to becoming a completed release that temptation will be there to chip away at Kings of War.

Kings of War did miss the boat; they've got 3 years now to steady the boat that they've got and try to grow it if they can; however at the same time AoS is vastly improved. It will never be rank and file, but as a miniatures wargame its pretty much in line with 40K (if not actually better in terms of balance as the "soup" issue is far restrained within it - heck right now Slaanesh is the only real major outlier in terms of balance for 2.0 battletomes - which isn't to say they are all perfect, but that its the only one of multiple 2.0 Tomes that is clearly very broken and that's mostly on one mechanic - depravity)

Of course we play a Wargame not for the rules alone

But I see a basic problem here that more or less GW marketing introduced.

People rather care about the models instead of the rules, meaning that they rather replace the GW models if they are too expensive or don't like the style instead of changing the ruselset if they don't like the game.

Keep playing the bad game as long as you like the miniatures
instead of
play the game you like with the miniatures you like

I met a lot of people during gaming in the past 20 years, and nearly all of those who were introduced by GW into the Hobby came up as the forme, searching for alternative models but never for alternative rules (and if they wanted to change the system, they always thought they need to change their models too as using GW models for a different game is bad while using other models for a GW game is fine)

For people coming from somewhere else, like historical games or RPG's, they never really understood why you should not use different rules for different scenarios while keeping the same models
As you collect one army and then just play with the ruselset that fit todays mood.

interesting small thing is how big the jump from 5th to 6th ed was. 6th upped the regiment sizes, nerfed heroes, and removed a lot of the "fantastic" elements (weaker magic, items, monsters), while upping the visual "grimdarkness" of it.

I feel like AoS, lack of ranks aside, is very much a spiritual successor of HeroHammer, which is, for many reasons, the most disliked edition among WFB fans that stayed on till the end times.

To the OP...

I got 1/4 into your first sentence and you're already mistaken, horribly bias and are making some bold false assumptions.

To your endeavor, I say... You are the absolute wrong person for the job.

[Deleted]