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2019/11/26 13:43:47
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
Nurglitch wrote: Maybe it's relevant to the topic that there's a vast, incognito horde of club or home-based hobbyists driving many of GW's decisions that seem otherwise incomprehensible to store and tournament-based hobbyists.
It's entirely relevant since that's literally how LotR worked for forever past the initial craze. Dakkaites were convinced the game was dead because they never saw anyone play it because they couldn't accept that people were playing it outside of store because of how hostile other GW players were towards LotR.
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Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2019/11/26 15:50:57
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
Mantic has always made most of their business from online ordering, having started in that realm. My FLGS has sometimes stocked their buy-once products like the spin off boardgames, but never the miniature games themselves. I got the impression that since Mantic isn't above offering their own products at below retail value with deals on shipping, it makes it a hard bargain to stock something on a shelf that could be costing more than the online order direct from mantic.
I think they were mostly using kickstarter to generate buzz for new product lines. Its a common strategy, one pioneered by Steve Jackson games, who you probably wouldn't make the same accusation about despite their constant kickstarting.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
ChargerIIC wrote: Mantic has always made most of their business from online ordering, having started in that realm. My FLGS has sometimes stocked their buy-once products like the spin off boardgames, but never the miniature games themselves. I got the impression that since Mantic isn't above offering their own products at below retail value with deals on shipping, it makes it a hard bargain to stock something on a shelf that could be costing more than the online order direct from mantic.
I think they were mostly using kickstarter to generate buzz for new product lines. Its a common strategy, one pioneered by Steve Jackson games, who you probably wouldn't make the same accusation about despite their constant kickstarting.
Kickstarters can be a great way to get the message out there and partial backing, but just like Palladium books you need to follow through with what you promise or pay dearly. Both SJG and Mantic do this very well, they use the medium as a starter platform
and hopes that it also generates retail sales with it.
But back to topic, I hold the separation 100% on Kirby, At the end it was making very questionable choices. He was the one in charge. Someone could have had the perfect idea to fix everything but up to him to allow it.
Rules and miniatures go hand in hand, seen players buy up models that didn't look that great but had awesome rules for them. And I personally have bought figures that were awful in the game but I still liked them.
Separation of the community was the only path.. it caused a loss in sales that ultimately got rid of Kirby..
2019/11/27 16:38:45
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
I am cautiously interested. I thought I would never buy a GW product again after 7th edition WHFB and 5th edition or so 40K.
I was very happy playing other games with other models. However, with the resurgence of Specialist Games I have found myself spending money on GW again.
Kudos to them, and I hope it all works out.
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2019/11/27 19:00:32
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
But back to topic, I hold the separation 100% on Kirby, At the end it was making very questionable choices. He was the one in charge. Someone could have had the perfect idea to fix everything but up to him to allow it.
Rules and miniatures go hand in hand, seen players buy up models that didn't look that great but had awesome rules for them. And I personally have bought figures that were awful in the game but I still liked them.
Separation of the community was the only path.. it caused a loss in sales that ultimately got rid of Kirby..
I mean it all does boil down to him but quite a bit of what he was doing is a result of restructuring due to a huge loss of revenue (LOTR) and a large increase in production cost (Pewter prices skyrocketing). Basically all the horrible decisions that happened starting in 2007 all the way up to late 2014 are on him.
I get that he had to cut corners to save money which is why a lot of the decisions were made. However, producing plastic kits for the same price as their metal counterparts while also introducing finecast as a replacement for pewter AND hiking the price for an inferior medium....man none of that helped.
Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!! The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage
2019/11/27 20:25:47
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
Quick note: 7th was when they started doing the price hike/model reduction shenanigans. If memory serves, 7th also hit before 2007 as I took the rulebook from the Skull Pass set with me on my deployment.
I think this is correct because the WE book I bought in 09, the shop guy informed me, was the 6th ed book, and that WE were "not in a good way" at the time, because they hadn't been updated in forever, and were unlikely to see an update before any new editions came along.
This, IMO, brings up one of the big problems with the direction that old fantasy went in. . . In 40k, every single player that I personally know who has picked up 40k and played for longer than a calendar year picks up more than one army. . . I don't know what it is about 40k specifically, but everyone I know has 2, 3 or 4+ armies of 2,000 points or more each. There's a lot of dabbling and expanding/mixing and matching that goes on. . . On the fantasy side, all the players I personally knew who played old fantasy had 1 army. The cost/size of that 1 army made it very difficult for them to justify getting into a second or even dare i say a third army. Of the 2 dozen or so gamers I personally know, only 1 had multiple fantasy armies and thats because he was in his 50s when I met him, he'd never married and GW was his only hobby outside of watching the local pro baseball team.
From a "model company" perspective, the model count of old fantasy was providing them a fairly unsustainable business model, and so blowing up the world, moving to AoS allowed them to reboot their thinking and move the one thing they need to make money on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/28 05:51:04
2019/11/28 08:51:27
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
Hmm.. It's totally the other way round in my place.
I started off with O&G, which is my main fantasy army. In 2001, I picked up some Necrons, and that's it for me with 40k.
I started Dark Elves in 2003 or so, and added Beastmen in 2012, and High Elves in 2016. Dwarves 2016 too, but I haven't played yet with them as I have a lot of minis to paint still.
2019/12/01 05:43:34
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
I love the Old World but I am not excited for this. GW is gonna screw it up. They are going to -violate- it hardcore
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JoV wrote: What was the last basic rank and file box GW released for Warhammer before it folded? State Troopers, Orcs, Goblins, Skinks, High Elf spearmen etc? Not elites or monsters, but the lowest level grunts. I can't remember now but it seems like nearly all those were from sixth edition or so. Some (zombies etc.) were from even earlier. The only one I can think of is the updated skeleton warriors, but not sure when they arrived on the scene.
For a game that is supposed to be rank and file, the neglect of the actual rank and file was a major reason for my losing interest. That is always the first thing I look for when thinking of starting or building on an army. I don't think gamers can be blamed for not buying those minis any more when other (and oftentimes better) alternatives were widely available. It seemed to me anyway that GW abandoned that space in favour for multi-part monster kits long before they canned the game completely. Hard to sustain a rank and file game when a company doesn't seem to much want to make new rank and file minis any more...
My hope is this new version sees a returned emphasis on those bottom level grunts. However how GW get back into what is now an extremely competitive market for cheap plastic fantasy minis will be interesting to see...
Exactly. Basic troops are what dictate if I like an army or not. Not Characters or tanks or monsters. If an army doesnt have a good looking core, then I just wont eat it
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/01 06:01:48
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Nurglitch wrote: Maybe it's relevant to the topic that there's a vast, incognito horde of club or home-based hobbyists driving many of GW's decisions that seem otherwise incomprehensible to store and tournament-based hobbyists.
It's entirely relevant since that's literally how LotR worked for forever past the initial craze. Dakkaites were convinced the game was dead because they never saw anyone play it because they couldn't accept that people were playing it outside of store because of how hostile other GW players were towards LotR.
Our KoW games are likewise run at people's houses - not at stores.
It is a less sales driven game - and our players use minis from all over the place, with a majority being older GW minis, mostly from fifth and sixth editions. (More and more from other companies as the older GW models are replaced. I am in on a Not-Tomb Kings KS....)
*EDIT* One player bought up a bunch of the skaven from Island of Blood. He has a freakin' 'uge army.
I think the KoW Alpha was in 2010, but I won't swear to it. Unlike a lot of folks, I like the Mantic elves and dwarfs. (I use the eles as sidhe in my RPGs...nasty, pale fey.)
The Auld Grump - but still not as much as I like their undead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/02 06:26:33
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2019/12/04 03:52:34
Subject: Re:Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
2019/12/04 09:22:42
Subject: Re:Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Given that neither of those are for Kings of War 3rd edition, Grot 6, I'm not sure what from dyndraig's last post you're trying to disprove.
Nor, after looking at the two KS pages, am I quite sure what the months you reference are all about. KoW Vanguard closed its funding period in November 2017, while TerrainCrate 2 closed in March 2019.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2019/12/04 12:56:38
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
I don't understand the 40k armies were cheaper than fantasy armies.
My 40k armies and my fantasy armies were very close to the same model count and very close to the same cost.
Maybe it just seemed like more because the steadfast garbage made people go out and buy 100 models for one unit but in the end I think it came out in the wash.
2019/12/04 13:55:38
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
auticus wrote: I don't understand the 40k armies were cheaper than fantasy armies.
My 40k armies and my fantasy armies were very close to the same model count and very close to the same cost.
Maybe it just seemed like more because the steadfast garbage made people go out and buy 100 models for one unit but in the end I think it came out in the wash.
Depends on the army I guess. My gaming buddy and I were looking at getting into WHFB around the End Times. I was very much into Vampire Counts but I was finding the idea of needing to be fielding 50 model blocks of skeletons for something silly like 2 points per model (and near £1 per point!) pretty off-putting. I'm not sure anything in 40K has chaff units at the same level as undead and skaven in WHFB.
2019/12/04 14:01:25
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
Skeletons were 8 pts a model in 8th, but I understand your points. The chaffe armies were skaven and goblins, which would routinely field 100-200 model UNITS (plural).
I played chaos, dark elves, tomb kings primarily and all three of those armies had around 70-80 models total.
Compared to my necrons, chaos 40k, and eldar, which were also about 70 models with the exception of my eldar which were in the 40s.
I'd say the majority of whfb armies were around 50-80 models on average with the outliers going into the hundreds. Those certainly would cost a lot more if you were interested in that type of army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/04 14:02:19
2019/12/04 14:26:28
Subject: Re:Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Ok...but, like...why does it matter that they use Kickstarters? What exactly is the negative? I don't really understand where this "Finance shaming" thing is coming from.
Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!! The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage
2019/12/04 16:13:51
Subject: Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
auticus wrote: I don't understand the 40k armies were cheaper than fantasy armies.
My 40k armies and my fantasy armies were very close to the same model count and very close to the same cost.
Maybe it just seemed like more because the steadfast garbage made people go out and buy 100 models for one unit but in the end I think it came out in the wash.
depending on the faction and what you wanted to play Imperial State Troops were 30€ for 10 and you needed 20-30 models for a unit (and 20 were a useless core tax doing nothing within the game) and the expensive elite being 45€ for 10 (the famous more expensive than metal box).
Going for 40k during that time was kind of cheap, as the 10 Marines for 30€ got you one unit and you got the whole army for the same price that you needed to just fill the core in Fantasy
Changed of course as 40k proceeded.
But same now, going for FEC in AoS and you are done with 2 starter boxes and still be competitive.
Going for Stormcast or Marines on tournament level (so discounted boxes are useless and/or not worth to get twice) will cost you much more
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2019/12/04 23:25:36
Subject: Re:Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Given that neither of those are for Kings of War 3rd edition, Grot 6, I'm not sure what from dyndraig's last post you're trying to disprove.
Nor, after looking at the two KS pages, am I quite sure what the months you reference are all about. KoW Vanguard closed its funding period in November 2017, while TerrainCrate 2 closed in March 2019.
I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids! Disproving what? I'm talking Mantic using Kickstarter to survive. THAT guy was the one talking about KOW. He said that they haven't run a kickstarter this year, I just posted where they did. And BTW- This isn't the first time that Mantic ran Kickstarters to fund past Kickstarters… That was a running joke back in the day. Heck, I didn't even need to talk about Here's Neegan, or the All Out War Walking Dead game, and add ons. Mars Attacks, or the Necromunda/ Kill Team rip off.
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Ok...but, like...why does it matter that they use Kickstarters? What exactly is the negative? I don't really understand where this "Finance shaming" thing is coming from.
Because Mantic runs their business on Kickstarters and is unreliable. Doesn't matter that they use Kickstarter, what matters is that they are unreliable.
I don't understand where you got "Finance Shamming from either. You should explain yourself.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/04 23:32:14
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
2019/12/05 14:15:40
Subject: Re:Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
Because Mantic runs their business on Kickstarters and is unreliable. Doesn't matter that they use Kickstarter, what matters is that they are unreliable.
I don't understand where you got "Finance Shamming from either. You should explain yourself.
Its unreliable based on what though? I'm not the one making the claim that Kickstarters are bad. Have they had a failed kickstarter? Have they shown to be unreliable in Mantics case? When Mantic does a Kickstarter they all seem to succeed. Mantic does not have the failed track record like, lets say, Shield Wolf Miniatures does. Now they had a kickstarter or two fail. They then went back, retooled what was being offered and did it again and it succeeded.
The whole idea that a small company MUST subject themselves to finance system in order to get loans to run their business and get funding to produce their product is an outdated model. Why should a company like Mantic subject themselves to that when they can bypass the middleman and go right to the consumer for their financing of projects?
Even if they DO have a failed kickstarter, what does that mean? "This particular product is not sufficiently popular enough to be profitable." So they dodged a bullet by not getting a bank loan to produce a product that doesn't end up selling and can, potentially, lead to the whole company going belly up.
The point I'm making about 'Finance shaming" is that just because a company does not want to engage in the "Old School" way of doing things is not a bug nor unreliable. Yeah, maybe they do a kickstarter and it fails to launch...isn't that better then producing a product that ends up losing you money and threaten the whole enterprise?
Commodus Leitdorf Paints all of the Things!! The Breaking of the Averholme: An AoS Adventure
"We have clearly reached the point where only rampant and unchecked stabbing can save us." -Black Mage
2019/12/06 12:17:55
Subject: Re:Timeline leading up to the split Warhammer community
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Given that neither of those are for Kings of War 3rd edition, Grot 6, I'm not sure what from dyndraig's last post you're trying to disprove.
Nor, after looking at the two KS pages, am I quite sure what the months you reference are all about. KoW Vanguard closed its funding period in November 2017, while TerrainCrate 2 closed in March 2019.
I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids! Disproving what? I'm talking Mantic using Kickstarter to survive. THAT guy was the one talking about KOW. He said that they haven't run a kickstarter this year, I just posted where they did. And BTW- This isn't the first time that Mantic ran Kickstarters to fund past Kickstarters… That was a running joke back in the day. Heck, I didn't even need to talk about Here's Neegan, or the All Out War Walking Dead game, and add ons. Mars Attacks, or the Necromunda/ Kill Team rip off.
I don't know where you are getting your information. I'm looking at Mantic here on KS, and they have been running at least 1 KS a year for quite a few now, sometimes more then 1 at a time.
It's quite simple to google, Mantic was founded in 2008, ran their first KS in 2012 and released KoW 3rd edition November this year without a KS.
Ok...but, like...why does it matter that they use Kickstarters? What exactly is the negative? I don't really understand where this "Finance shaming" thing is coming from.
Because Mantic runs their business on Kickstarters and is unreliable. Doesn't matter that they use Kickstarter, what matters is that they are unreliable.
I don't understand where you got "Finance Shamming from either. You should explain yourself.
Honestly, I dont know what you are trying to prove here. I have already proven that Mantic went years without using a KS and that they recently released the latest version of their flagship product without using KS. I never claimed they didn't run a KS this year, not sure where you got that from
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
Disproving what? I'm talking Mantic using Kickstarter to survive. THAT guy was the one talking about 
