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Kill Team: Annual 2019

Love Kill Team? Then make sure to get yourself the Kill Team Annual 2019! This rules supplement is like Chapter Approved, but for Kill Team, bringing together points updates, content previously only printed in White Dwarf and brand-new rules for another great year of skirmish gaming.

Try the Adepta Sororitas, gear up your Heretic Astartes with new guns, forge a narrative with dozens of missions – this gaming toolbox is packed with resources that’ll make your battles more fun however you prefer to play.

-Adepta Sororitas Rules
-WD-Rules
-New Options for Traitor Marines

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/24/coming-soon-blood-of-baal-battleforces-and-beyond/

Sadly, this comes out the day before the tournament I am organizing. I am undecided on how to handle the items introduced here, or changes made here, for this tournament.

Though I am quite excited to get rules for Sisters of Battle.

The "smart" thing is to say no Kill Team Annual. That way nobody has to learn anything new or fear a change in the points of their list. Kinda sucks to have to leave that new content to the side, but it is the most efficient route since otherwise you have to assume everyone gets the book on release day and spends the day reading the rules and adjusting their list.

Couldn't find enough reason to get either Commanders or Elites, but being as I've missed out on White Dwarf most of the year, this makes a lot of sense.

Interested to know what the new material will be.

I missed out on Commanders and Elites also, although I think I'll pick this up for everything else I missed out on. Doh!

Some of the upcoming content has been previewed in this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/26/adepta-sororitas-kill-team-sightedgw-homepage-post-2/

Oh so they're actually giving heretic astartes some weapon options? Call me when I can use raptors.

Love the basic rules. Hate the treatment of heretic astartes.

I thought they had given up on KT. I mean we got a release schedule that raped wallets then nothing for months.

We can expect that next Year, we get a second Annual Book minimum, before GW would drop KT....

I don't really think Kill Team is going anywhere, but they probably won't get as many dedicated releases as the first rollout from here on out.

Really a few releases (things like campaigns and kill zones) a year + points and rules updates would be sufficient to keep it fresh in my opinion.

It's also a nice place to release some of the weirder stuff like Rogue Trader should they desire to keep doing that.

Once GW successfully destroys any chance of Aeronautic Imperials having any sustainability they can turn their attention to producing more Space Marine related content and price reductions in 40k to ensure that the rest of their specialty games get flushed down the toilet in 2020. This will set the stage for an early 2021 9th edition reset (they lied about the sustainability of 8th of course). I am very thankful for all the good things in life and wish you all a happy holidays.

Kindly stay on topic and leave the politics, as per site rules, out of it please.

By the sounds of it, I look forward to having the option of switching out my heavy bolter CSM for a missile launcher, or dare I say, an autocannon. Throw in some chain/power axe options for the aspiring champion I will be content enough.

It will also be nice to have those out of the way factions in one place for ease of reference. I suppose including the Ambull in nice, but when your Chaos Terminator kill team has already fought a Dimachaeron it does seem a little underwhelming. I guess not every Kill Team group has given that a go and probably want a little more assurance than, "Sounds awesome. Let's have at it!"

Are those Kroot models new?

No, just a more vibrant paint job and better lighting.

The kroot hound in particular is a lot more green, and someone decided to actually do detail on the neck.

Ah, Kill Team. It promised so much and delivered to us... everything we pretty much already had.

I'll never stop seeing KT as a lazy cash-grab. Sure, I'm a fan of skirmish games and stuff that lasts ~30 minutes to play without a huge financial investment.

But Kill Team could have been so much more.

I'm still holding out for a proper skirmish game. I wish GW would look at what N17 did right and replicate that into a new Shadow War game.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Ah, Kill Team. It promised so much and delivered to us... everything we pretty much already had.

I'll never stop seeing KT as a lazy cash-grab. Sure, I'm a fan of skirmish games and stuff that lasts ~30 minutes to play without a huge financial investment.

But Kill Team could have been so much more.

I'm still holding out for a proper skirmish game. I wish GW would look at what N17 did right and replicate that into a new Shadow War game.

Took words right out of my mouth. I was so excited to see D10 next to minis in killteam teasers... In my naivety I've imagined that GW was going to change system to D10 for more granuality between weapons and armour. Then we get mini-40k, but not really with extremely shallow rules (for skirmish). Getting a flat -1 for having a pinky toe in cover, one-man army commanders... Bleh.

SW:A had a lot of design mistakes, but it had a lot of heart. With N17 alternative/group activations it could be an amazing skirmish.

Nay, N17 40k would be lame.

Let's hope more many Years of KT releases.

 JawRippa wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Ah, Kill Team. It promised so much and delivered to us... everything we pretty much already had.

I'll never stop seeing KT as a lazy cash-grab. Sure, I'm a fan of skirmish games and stuff that lasts ~30 minutes to play without a huge financial investment.

But Kill Team could have been so much more.

I'm still holding out for a proper skirmish game. I wish GW would look at what N17 did right and replicate that into a new Shadow War game.

Took words right out of my mouth. I was so excited to see D10 next to minis in killteam teasers... In my naivety I've imagined that GW was going to change system to D10 for more granuality between weapons and armour. Then we get mini-40k, but not really with extremely shallow rules (for skirmish). Getting a flat -1 for having a pinky toe in cover, one-man army commanders... Bleh.

SW:A had a lot of design mistakes, but it had a lot of heart. With N17 alternative/group activations it could be an amazing skirmish.

I agree 100% All I ever really wanted out of KT was a campaign system.. Necromuda Lite... But instead we got elites. and Commanders. and meh.......... It's fun for what it is, but it coulda been so much more.

bfdhud wrote:

 JawRippa wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Ah, Kill Team. It promised so much and delivered to us... everything we pretty much already had.

I'll never stop seeing KT as a lazy cash-grab. Sure, I'm a fan of skirmish games and stuff that lasts ~30 minutes to play without a huge financial investment.

But Kill Team could have been so much more.

I'm still holding out for a proper skirmish game. I wish GW would look at what N17 did right and replicate that into a new Shadow War game.

Took words right out of my mouth. I was so excited to see D10 next to minis in killteam teasers... In my naivety I've imagined that GW was going to change system to D10 for more granuality between weapons and armour. Then we get mini-40k, but not really with extremely shallow rules (for skirmish). Getting a flat -1 for having a pinky toe in cover, one-man army commanders... Bleh.

SW:A had a lot of design mistakes, but it had a lot of heart. With N17 alternative/group activations it could be an amazing skirmish.

I agree 100% All I ever really wanted out of KT was a campaign system.. Necromuda Lite... But instead we got elites. and Commanders. and meh.......... It's fun for what it is, but it coulda been so much more.

How is the current Killteam campaign system different from Necromunda?

 Apple Peel wrote:
How is the current Killteam campaign system different from Necromunda?

It's been a while, but I think KT just uses a basic experience system where every model using the same data sheet/group levels up simultaneously - there is a small ability tree that grants them new bonuses. There's no real campaign system at all. No deaths, injuries, items, skills, capturing enemy units, fighting over territory, champions, or even individuality. Just a roster, more or less.

I think KT would benefit by taking a page out of Warcry's book - battleplan cards (with ravaged lands-like terrain cards), a simple campaign system, and alternating activations. The battleplan cards and campaign system could easily be built on top of existing KT as an expansion.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
How is the current Killteam campaign system different from Necromunda?

It's been a while, but I think KT just uses a basic experience system where every model using the same data sheet/group levels up simultaneously - there is a small ability tree that grants them new bonuses. There's no real campaign system at all. No deaths, injuries, items, skills, capturing enemy units, fighting over territory, champions, or even individuality. Just a roster, more or less.

I think KT would benefit by taking a page out of Warcry's book - battleplan cards (with ravaged lands-like terrain cards), a simple campaign system, and alternating activations. The battleplan cards and campaign system could easily be built on top of existing KT as an expansion.

I think you should look at it again. The KT campaign system definitely does have a resource system, deaths, and injuries. Individuality? What do you mean by that? I’m quite sure a lot of people have their dudes with their own fluff and converted/kitbashed models. There is an ability tree for each specialist type. Tell me what you mean by champions. I could view a Tier 3 or 4 specialist as a kind of champion. What do you by skills? There are various tactics unlocked by different specialists as they level up that can be used through command points.

In Necromunda, you can level up each stat individually as well as buying skills that are similar in effect to the kill team tier tactics, except you dont need command points to use them. Champions are similar in nature to specialists, I that they have the easiest access to skills. I think the main difference between the games is the limitations in weaponry that are imposed in Necromunda. Kill Team manages this by imposing weapon choice limitations on the troop selection process.

The other main difference is that in Necromunda you can have matches between gangs that are fundamentally different power levels. The game and the missions are not really intended to be super balanced, while kill team is obviously much more finely tuned (well as far as GW ever does) for match and tournament play.

I think the kill team campaign is more true to a formal military force with access to standardized resources, and with troops pretty much at peak performance. Necromunda is very much trying to get your lowest of the low scum to survive just long enough for them to be a bit less than awful

 Apple Peel wrote:
I think you should look at it again. The KT campaign system definitely does have a resource system, deaths, and injuries. Individuality? What do you mean by that? I’m quite sure a lot of people have their dudes with their own fluff and converted/kitbashed models. There is an ability tree for each specialist type. Tell me what you mean by champions. I could view a Tier 3 or 4 specialist as a kind of champion. What do you by skills? There are various tactics unlocked by different specialists as they level up that can be used through command points.

Like I said, it has been a while. I've never actually played Kill Team in campaign mode. So let me instead focus on how Necromunda does it.

By individuality, I was under the impression that models of the same type leveled up together in KT. In Necromunda, each model levels up individually by spending experience points (gained from accomplishing goals in the mission and for making enemy models go out of action) to do things like raise their stats or learn new skills. In Necromunda, there's a bunch of different abilities for each skill type, so Brawn and net you headbutt or hurl while Agility has stuff that allows you to leap or climb easier. Each faction (and each type of model) has different primary and secondary skills. So Cawdor can't learn any skills from Cunning or Shooting, but Combat is (usually) a primary skill set.

Most Necromunda gangs are split into four categories: leaders, champions, gangers, and juves. The juves are inexperienced versions that can grow stronger easier and graduate into a Champion. Champions and leaders have the ability to activate nearby units alongside them, and have the leadership skillset as a primary. Gangers level up randomly and in a more limited way, but can be turned into a specialist which allows them to select their upgrades like the leaders/champions/juves. After missions, your gang can also visit the trading post to buy new equipment, including rare items like special weapons, bomb rats, gold plated guns, animal companions, bionics (to correct your model's spinal or head injuries), and even hire non-combatants like doctors.

Kill Team doesn't really have that kind of detail. The campaign rules are printed on 4 pages compared to the 31 pages that Necromunda's Uprising campaign takes (and Uprising is just one of four different campaign systems too). I don't think KT needs to be quite as expansive as Necromunda, but the campaign system seems like the bare minimum.

Like many of you I forgot to pick up Commanders and Elites, yet I'll somehow find a way to pick this up. My D&D kids have expressed interest in 40K and this seems like the simple gateway...

Like many more of you, I wished Kill Team was more than it was. Seems it was a lazy attempt to merge 8E with some of the stuff in SWA--which surprised GW with its popularity. I too would love to see 40K skirmish mixed with N17 in a true successor to Rogue Trader, but I'd settle for a 40K version of Warhammer Underworlds.

In KT, you have Commanders (HQ), Leaders (Sergeants), Specialists, and Fire Teams.

Fire Teams are “grunts” that do gain experience and skills as a group. Mostly because most grunts are next to worthless when it comes to taking other models out of action, and would be hard pressed to ever level individually. I think they have one list to choose from.

Specialists gain experience individually, and gain skills from their tree. Same with Leaders, and probably Commanders.

Competitively, the points increase for specialists that level tend to cripple standard 100 point teams. Less of an issue if your group escalated points between matches or stages of a campaign, but if you stick to 100 point matches, you wind up in situations where some 5-man teams *can’t* field more than 4 models at a time. In practice, that should be a limiting factor for a typical 7-10 man team to lose a model but like all things GW, doesn’t scale evenly.

For me, KT is a fast pickup game, and I like it for that. I can play a few games in a couple hours, change teams, have fully painted “armies” to play with. While the games are usually close and exciting, they’re also quick so a bad beat at the end of a game is easy to brush off and start a new game sort of thing.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/28/kill-team-choose-your-specialist-subjectgw-homepage-post-4/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kkillteam271119
Ha! Will you look at that!

The conversion tips are top notch. Buy a Forge World Squat to get an ammo box for your Killteam Grey Knight...

 Dryaktylus wrote:
The conversion tips are top notch. Buy a Forge World Squat to get an ammo box for your Killteam Grey Knight...

Let them eat cake!

 Apple Peel wrote:
How is the current Killteam campaign system different from Necromunda?

Necromunda is an actual campaign. Wider variety of scenarios, wargear, advancements, expanding your roster, consequences, advantages to taking a particular territory/racket, etc. There's strategy to who you challenge, what you take, and what you build.

Kill Team's campaign is "don't lose, add an ability to a guy after a few games". It's a sad imitation at best.

Comparing the two campaigns is like comparing a massive buffet to a few packets of crackers and cheese on a table.

 Flinty wrote:
II think the kill team campaign is more true to a formal military force with access to standardized resources, and with troops pretty much at peak performance. Necromunda is very much trying to get your lowest of the low scum to survive just long enough for them to be a bit less than awful

A ganger that hits you on a 2+ isn't what I'd call awful, considering the guard regularly utilizes house Van Saar for their skillset. The underhive isn't a bunch of talentless scrubs barely getting by- we have actual comparisons to things like Guardsmen in the books (guard vets gone rogue, Ogryn, etc.)

 Apple Peel wrote:
I think you should look at it again. The KT campaign system definitely does have a resource system, deaths, and injuries. Individuality? What do you mean by that? I’m quite sure a lot of people have their dudes with their own fluff and converted/kitbashed models. There is an ability tree for each specialist type. Tell me what you mean by champions. I could view a Tier 3 or 4 specialist as a kind of champion. What do you by skills? There are various tactics unlocked by different specialists as they level up that can be used through command points.

Considering that Kill Team restricts you to toys that are in a specific box, and your individual units are nothing but a stat line from 40k- no, it's a trash-tier imitiation. A joke. A "Campaign" that some intern probably scribbled up in an afternoon.

I promise you, if I sit you down and we play Necromunda, you will feel a sting on your cheek, because that'd be the slap in the face that Kill Team's campaign is.

Kill Team is 40k lite. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RazorEdge wrote:
Nay, N17 40k would be lame.

Let's hope more many Years of KT releases.

Yeah, it's lame if you're really into dumbed-down 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/28/kill-team-choose-your-specialist-subjectgw-homepage-post-4/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kkillteam271119
Ha! Will you look at that!

You're joking, right? This is you saying it's like Necromunda?

I have a dude in my gang right now that can dual-wield pistols, and he ignores a point of cover. He's got two Autopistols, and I've got every possible type of nasty round you can add- frag, rad, phosphor, manstopper, and normal- and he's got suppressors on them, because that actually matters. He's also got a las-carbine, just in case. Additionally, he has rad grenades, flash grenades, smoke grenades. He has carapace armor, an armored undersuit, a camo-cloak, nightvision goggles,

Essentially, in the dark, you can't even see him but he can see you at 12". If he doesn't move, even if you get close you're at a penalty to shoot him. And if he shoots you, you can't see him when he does because he has suppressors. And he's got a nasty mix of grenades, to shred your toughness, make himself smoked (so you can't see him, but he can see you), and he's got decent enough armor to survive.

This is ONE model. One individual guy.

If you wanted Kill Team to even compare, okay- then I'd be able to put together a Space Marine, in Phobos Armor, with an Astartes Shotgun and paired chainswords, and select every type of grenade he's got. I'd be able to grab a marine in Gravis armor, load him up with a converted rotorcannon, and select a specific loadout and skill to make him an effective overwatch gunner to cover avenues of approach- and it's more than a 'cool looking model', all of those choices matter. Each model is more than just something yanked out of a 40k squad, they're kitted up in detail with wargear that actually makes a difference in the game, and doesn't need to be 'allowed' in another game to use it.

A few pictures of yanked-from-the-box marines, nothing more than a copy/pasted stat-line... that someone bothered to name and pick a few basic skills for is about as weak a comparison as I've ever seen. Necromunda isn't just cosmetic kitbashing. You might need that skill, especially if you want black market weapons. And some of the hangers-on. Necromunda had no support for years, well over a decade- and people still kept the game alive until N17 happened. Kill Team only has support because they can keep shoving 40k units down into it, with a slightly modified data sheet- it's literally the crumbs of a larger game.

Necromunda is objectively a superior game. Kill Team is just a step above Warcry.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
How is the current Killteam campaign system different from Necromunda?

Necromunda is an actual campaign. Wider variety of scenarios, wargear, advancements, expanding your roster, consequences, advantages to taking a particular territory/racket, etc. There's strategy to who you challenge, what you take, and what you build.

Kill Team's campaign is "don't lose, add an ability to a guy after a few games". It's a sad imitation at best.

Comparing the two campaigns is like comparing a massive buffet to a few packets of crackers and cheese on a table.

 Flinty wrote:
II think the kill team campaign is more true to a formal military force with access to standardized resources, and with troops pretty much at peak performance. Necromunda is very much trying to get your lowest of the low scum to survive just long enough for them to be a bit less than awful

A ganger that hits you on a 2+ isn't what I'd call awful, considering the guard regularly utilizes house Van Saar for their skillset. The underhive isn't a bunch of talentless scrubs barely getting by- we have actual comparisons to things like Guardsmen in the books (guard vets gone rogue, Ogryn, etc.)

 Apple Peel wrote:
I think you should look at it again. The KT campaign system definitely does have a resource system, deaths, and injuries. Individuality? What do you mean by that? I’m quite sure a lot of people have their dudes with their own fluff and converted/kitbashed models. There is an ability tree for each specialist type. Tell me what you mean by champions. I could view a Tier 3 or 4 specialist as a kind of champion. What do you by skills? There are various tactics unlocked by different specialists as they level up that can be used through command points.

Considering that Kill Team restricts you to toys that are in a specific box, and your individual units are nothing but a stat line from 40k- no, it's a trash-tier imitiation. A joke. A "Campaign" that some intern probably scribbled up in an afternoon.

I promise you, if I sit you down and we play Necromunda, you will feel a sting on your cheek, because that'd be the slap in the face that Kill Team's campaign is.

Kill Team is 40k lite. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RazorEdge wrote:
Nay, N17 40k would be lame.

Let's hope more many Years of KT releases.

Yeah, it's lame if you're really into dumbed-down 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/28/kill-team-choose-your-specialist-subjectgw-homepage-post-4/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kkillteam271119
Ha! Will you look at that!

You're joking, right? This is you saying it's like Necromunda?

I have a dude in my gang right now that can dual-wield pistols, and he ignores a point of cover. He's got two Autopistols, and I've got every possible type of nasty round you can add- frag, rad, phosphor, manstopper, and normal- and he's got suppressors on them, because that actually matters. He's also got a las-carbine, just in case. Additionally, he has rad grenades, flash grenades, smoke grenades. He has carapace armor, an armored undersuit, a camo-cloak, nightvision goggles,

Essentially, in the dark, you can't even see him but he can see you at 12". If he doesn't move, even if you get close you're at a penalty to shoot him. And if he shoots you, you can't see him when he does because he has suppressors. And he's got a nasty mix of grenades, to shred your toughness, make himself smoked (so you can't see him, but he can see you), and he's got decent enough armor to survive.

This is ONE model. One individual guy.

A few pictures of yanked-from-the-box marines, nothing more than a copy/pasted stat-line... that someone bothered to name and pick a few basic skills for is about as weak a comparison as I've ever seen. Necromunda isn't just cosmetic kitbashing. You might need that skill, especially if you want black market weapons. And some of the hangers-on. Necromunda had no support for years, well over a decade- and people still kept the game alive until N17 happened. Kill Team only has support because they can keep shoving 40k units down into it, with a slightly modified data sheet- it's literally the crumbs of a larger game.

Necromunda is objectively a superior game. Kill Team is just a step above Warcry.

Don’t be a pretentious jackhat. I didn’t say anything about Necromunda. This is a new post from a day later about stuff in the new Annual that is extremely relevant to the last conversation by mere chance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Necromunda may be executed well, but I could care less about a game about scummy gangs on a crime planet. I’ll take Killteam because I like taking actual 40K operators. Tell me when Necromunda has Scion or Space Marine rules and I’ll be interested.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Don’t be a pretentious jackhat. I didn’t say anything about Necromunda. This is a new post from a day later about stuff in the new Annual that is extremely relevant to the last conversation by mere chance.

Oh, I thought you were using that article as 'proof'.

Also, I lol'd at the servo skull use. In Necromunda, they have an actual purpose. All four types.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Necromunda may be executed well, but I could care less about a game about scummy gangs on a crime planet. I’ll take Killteam because I like taking actual 40K operators. Tell me when Necromunda has Scion or Spae Marine rules and I’ll be interested.

"Scion Rules"... LOL

Do you mean, "A guy in carapace armor, with a respirator and photo-goggles, a skilled marksman and reliably tough trooper, Hot-Shot las-weapons"?

I can do exactly that in Necromunda with a Venator gang, replicate that exact sort of unit, and then load him up with a Heavy Bolter and a shotgun, if you want. Not only can I meet that, but I can do better.

Oh, and if you want the actual rules for playing a Space Marine- you wouldn't be doing it against Necromunda gangs, but the Horus Heresy weekender had rules for N17 using Astartes for a single mission. That, you know, actually work better than Kill Team games.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Don’t be a pretentious jackhat. I didn’t say anything about Necromunda. This is a new post from a day later about stuff in the new Annual that is extremely relevant to the last conversation by mere chance.

Oh, I thought you were using that article as 'proof'.

Also, I lol'd at the servo skull use. In Necromunda, they have an actual purpose. All four types.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Necromunda may be executed well, but I could care less about a game about scummy gangs on a crime planet. I’ll take Killteam because I like taking actual 40K operators. Tell me when Necromunda has Scion or Spae Marine rules and I’ll be interested.

"Scion Rules"... LOL

Do you mean, "A guy in carapace armor, with a respirator and photo-goggles, a skilled marksman and reliably tough trooper, Hot-Shot las-weapons"?

I can do exactly that in Necromunda with a Venator gang, replicate that exact sort of unit, and then load him up with a Heavy Bolter and a shotgun, if you want. Not only can I meet that, but I can do better.

Oh, and if you want the actual rules for playing a Space Marine- you wouldn't be doing it against Necromunda gangs, but the Horus Heresy weekender had rules for N17 using Astartes for a single mission. That, you know, actually work better than Kill Team games.

So counts-as? Do they get access to orders? What about Tau or Death Guard? Can I play with the new Sisters of Battle?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, can that Venator Gang Aerial Drop three models into the game? What about terminator deepstriking?

The annual is shaping up to be a must-have.

 Apple Peel wrote:

So counts-as? Do they get access to orders? What about Tau or Death Guard? Can I play with the new Sisters of Battle?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, can that Venator Gang Aerial Drop three models into the game? What about terminator deepstriking?

There are no Space Marines and Terminators in Necromunda. As far as a Venator "Dropping Three Models" from the air? Sure, you could give three different guys Infiltrate (which functions the same way), but you'd be stupid to give them all the same skillset. Because unlike 40k, there's always a counter and your opponent has found it, so you don't waste one trick on multiple guys. Because three deep-striking/Infiltrating guys sounds awesome until your opponent does the same with one Ambot and mulches all of them. Or he plays a card where he forces you to redploy your guy where HE wants him to be. Or even better, he isolates you in a killbox.

A venator gang is "use what models you want". Now, because it's Necromunda most people would roll their eyes and not welcome Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Etc. I have, however, seen Tau used. I've seen Ork Commandos, Inquisitorial Retinues, Rogue Traders, etc. It's all about selecting the profile that suits them best and kitting out the model you like.

If your argument is, "I want Kill Team because Space Marines and Scions and other 40k stuff", then you're understanding my argument about exactly why there should be a variant N17 system for 40k units. And think for a moment I'm not tinkering with it.

Because as much as Kill Team is fun for a boredom killer, imagine this-

You're a Kill Team and you're selecting what you do. Your opponents control various territories, or artifacts, or any sort of maguffin you want. Except, each of those maguffins offer an overall advantage to your Kill Teams (and to your army back at the main lines, for fluff). You decide which of those objectives you want to seize. You decide who you're going to fight- and your opponents get to do the same.

You get a stealth mission, and you're sneaking your Astartes into an Alpha Legion outpost. Your sergeant leads, with a breaching shield and storm bolter- and he's got your Eliminator with a suppressed Bolt Sniper Rifle taking a position on an elevated platform. Your Incursor sneaks in and kills a Legionnaire from behind with his power knife and suppressed bolt pistol. An Alpha Legion Champion opens the door on his patrol and sees you, but you hack a nearby terminal to force the door to slam on him as he enters and kill him before the alarm sounds. But, one of the Legionnaire's managed to spot you, and get to cover and take shots at you with a Reaper Chaincannon. So your Infiltrator grabs the relic, and drags it out- while your Reiver ambushes a squad of cultists with his chainglaive to cover you. Your Eliminator manages to cover you from reinforcements, but is hit- and falls from the ledge. He survives, but one of his eyes was shot out- so you have a permanent penalty to his BS until you get him a bionic eye. After this mission, you requisition some specialized ammo, and decide to give your Reiver a power glaive and your Incursor a Volkite Serpenta.

Now, that's just 40k stuff swapped out with Necromunda stuff- and all of that scenario has rules specifically for the mission.

My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

I agree.

You should be able to run out with a Reiver slinging two heavy bolt pistols, with the Occulus optics on each of them. A Primaris Intercessor with a Power Axe and shotgun, loaded with incendiary rounds. You should be able to break out the bits box and make some insane stuff that would never be legal in 40k.

If the excuse is "well they are a standardized military", then I ask you- have you ever spoken to someone from SF? They don't tend to use "standard" equipment on covert ops. A kill team would be far from the standard guys, it'd be a selected (or voluntold) group of guys sent in, and would have access to a few options that a normal rank and file Joe wouldn't.

That's my grudge. Kill Team doesn't encourage actual conversions for any reason other than cosmetics, and I already do a lot of that (I play Deathwatch, FFS). Kill Team is just meant to be a gateway to 40k, or a game to play with something you've pulled out of your army box. At some point, there will be a "Kill Team: Vehicles" at this rate.

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

It's called Open Play.....

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

It's called Open Play.....

The same gear restriction are in Open too.

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
It's called Open Play.....

Open Play doesn't completely alter the rules. It's just more tolerant about what you put down. And considering KT is 40k with a few odd steps and little tweaks, that's not really hard to do. This week I put an Eversor assassin against a Kill Team and it was pretty fun. That's what Open Play is for.

He's talking about a drastic overhaul, where he builds each individual guy in his team from the ground up. Armor, weapons, ammo types, grenades, and even things like optics, climbing equipment, ammo harnesses, etc.

Me and Crimson agree on very little and have had our spats before, but his attitude toward this whole thing makes me want to invite him over and let him poop with the door open so we can make Shadow War: N17 Kill Team Boogaloo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: Also, @apple peel: Sorry if I came off as a jerk, I'm pretty passionate about 'converting people over'. I re-read things and it sounded pretty harsh, I suppose.

Either way, I have to STRONGLY suggest you try Necromunda. If you would like, I could even lay out an idea for a Venator gang for you that incorporates Scions and Guardsmen, if you particulaly like the aesthetics of those models.

A key thing to remember is that KT can let you put down 20 guys at a time. Necromunda, you're using like 6-7, so you're micro-focused on what that guy does.

In a way, it's like 40k... except instead of a squad you kit out, you're kitting out an individual dude. And putting that much thought into what his role is going to be.

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

And more options for the factions. Why the feth can't I have raptors for my night lords but sm get vanguard veterans?

Trying to convince people to play necromunda seems completely off topic in the thread about the Kill Team annual. Please go do that somewhere else.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

And more options for the factions. Why the feth can't I have raptors for my night lords but sm get vanguard veterans?

Because they did Kill Team: Elites and haven't done Kill Team: Fast Attack. Its a wacky system, with a bizarre model of introducing more models to a squad based game.

Voss wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

And more options for the factions. Why the feth can't I have raptors for my night lords but sm get vanguard veterans?

Because they did Kill Team: Elites and haven't done Kill Team: Fast Attack. Its a wacky system, with a bizarre model of introducing more models to a squad based game.

But oddly enough, Elites lets us take Eliminators- which are Heavy Support and Suppressors which are Fast Attack.

They got absurdly lazy with CSM. The sad part is, they didn't even bother to update CSM rules to reflect the CSM Sprues that came out at the same exact time as the Vanguard Veterans that were in the Elites rulebook. For perspective- Elites dropped about a month after Shadowspear, and the Vanguard marines had rules in KT:Elites. And just in the past couple of months, 2 of the 3 new Vanguard Units were given their own multi-part kits and almost immediately, we got updated rules for them in White Dwarf.

Now that you know this, this is where it gets stupid:

Chaos Space Marines have had their Marines, Havocs, and a few other kits out since f--king MARCH of this year... and their Kill Team profiles for basic CSM Warriors hasn't changed in the slightest since the game first dropped- all KT:Elites gave to CSM was some HQ units (you can't use these in the majority of KT games), Khorne Berserkers, Possessed (pointless), and Terminators (overcosted to pointlessness). No Havocs, sucks to be you. Just throw more cultists at it, I guess. Oh, and no- Servants of the Abyss (Chaos from Blackstone Fortress) has its own Kill Team, and are considered completely separate from CSM. Why? I guess because f--k you, that's why.

My advice to anyone who wants to play Chaos Space Marines in Kill Team? You should just run them "Counts as Loyalist Space Marines" if you want to have anything other than a pittance for weapons options. Intercessors have more weapon options than Chaos Space Marines.

Part 2 of my grudge with Kill-Team: It's absurdly restricted to what comes in the box of models, unless it's Chaos Space Marines. Why? Because f--k you, that's why.

The whole final product of Kill-Team seems like a rushed and half-assed attempt to convince people it's a real game and not some slightly-adjusted copy-paste job designed to be a gateway into Warhammer 40k. If they in any way intended Kill-Team to be its own Specialist game, it'd have been done much better.

I mean, let's be real honest here- literally the only reason you would ever need to kitbash or convert a model for Kill-Team is for aesthetics. It does not require you to do so in order to create a functional unit, because unless they sell the model(s) in a box with that wargear- you can't play it- so there's no reason to make any interesting kitbashes/conversions for anything other than cosmetic reasons.

Why? Because f--k you, that's why.

Which is extreme, I know GW isn't being deliberately assy like some villain- it's just a disappointment and an overall pain in the rear. It's almost like the only reason to play Kill Team is because you're short on time and/or space, you don't have an actual army but have a few models for a faction, or you're being introduced to 40k. If none of those are a concern, then you have no real reason to play it at all.

I find KT to be more tactically interesting than 40k proper.

Setting up a couple of models to provide covering fire so that advancing units can scuttle from LoS blocking cover (which we use a fair bit of) to other LoS blocking cover.

More cinematic, as a lone soldier peeks around a corner to fire from safety without having 5 models each lined up 1/8 of an inch to the right so each can draw LoS but still be in cover.

More intense. As a regular Guard player, redundancy is common but in KT each model, while expendable, is still a valuable piece sacrificed only for specific gain.

What I think I like best, is the Dogs (ranged specialists) hunting Cats (Melee specialists) hunting Mice (grunts) that are trying to score objectives. Not all teams can play that way, but as a player that likes Toolbox / TAC lists, I find that style plays well in KT.

I feel it’s a more interesting game, where decisions matter more than “bombing them before they bomb you”.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I find KT to be more tactically interesting than 40k proper.

Setting up a couple of models to provide covering fire so that advancing units can scuttle from LoS blocking cover (which we use a fair bit of) to other LoS blocking cover.

More cinematic, as a lone soldier peeks around a corner to fire from safety without having 5 models each lined up 1/8 of an inch to the right so each can draw LoS but still be in cover.

More intense. As a regular Guard player, redundancy is common but in KT each model, while expendable, is still a valuable piece sacrificed only for specific gain.

What I think I like best, is the Dogs (ranged specialists) hunting Cats (Melee specialists) hunting Mice (grunts) that are trying to score objectives. Not all teams can play that way, but as a player that likes Toolbox / TAC lists, I find that style plays well in KT.

I feel it’s a more interesting game, where decisions matter more than “bombing them before they bomb you”.

Everything you described here makes me think you'd also love Necromunda. And since you're a Guard player, it's easier for me to introduce guys like you to the game. I'll just tell you to grab a few of your guardsmen with some different loadouts, let me look over them, talk to you about them and show you some options, and now you're using N17 rules for your Guardsmen as a Venator gang. Quite a few IG players I know (especially those that liked KT) tried Necromunda like this, and to this very day they still use their Guardsmen Venators regularly.

My main gripe is that there's a bit more thought to what you're doing with everyone in KT than 40k proper- but it also doesn't always have the same synergy and flexibility. Chaos players, for example... very limited in the way they can play their units. IG, IMHO, is one of the most fun KT factions because there are so many unique and interesting options. Adeptus Astartes are pretty fun and flexible in KT. Deathwatch can be fairly flexible. Some Kill Teams are pretty predictable, and are one-trick ponies or are at least boringly predictable. Not that some 40k armies are like that, but at least in 40k there's always the option of doing things like combining two different Imperium detachments and developing an interesting combination, or even just using two detachments of different chapters of Space Marines together.

Ok, we got it. You really, really like Necromunda. Thanks.

While I appreciate that Kill Team would be improved by a more flexible approach to army lists and wargear, I like it for what it is - Kill Team has effectively replaced 40k for me, with a game that scratches the same itch but smaller, cheaper and with much less bloat and "codex churn". It isn't Necromunda and we don't want it to be (we have Necromunda for that).

And if you wanna talk about GW's "f--k you, that's why" problems, let's talk about Necromunda's rulebooks...

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are.

Something that shouldn't really surprise any of us by now.

Ultimately Warcry represents what GW wants their skirmish games to be: Everything is set in stone, done with cards, and that's it. Even the terrain set-ups are mandated by cards.

 Wasteland wrote:
Ok, we got it. You really, really like Necromunda. Thanks.

No need to be a smartass. But you're right, I've been repeating myself. The average person that hasn't played it won't agree, anyway.

Wasteland 782838 10645305 f0d501f51965acfbf6e07b571a994438.pn wrote:While I appreciate that Kill Team would be improved by a more flexible approach to army lists and wargear, I like it for what it is - Kill Team has effectively replaced 40k for me, with a game that scratches the same itch but smaller, cheaper and with much less bloat and "codex churn". It isn't Necromunda and we don't want it to be (we have Necromunda for that).

By that logic, we also had 40k to use for Kill Team, and it's not like there are drastic, sweeping changes to any of the units from Codex to KT books... I mean, Kill Team could have been a White Dwarf article over a few pages and managed almost the same result.

I'm not asking for anything to be taken away from you, just something used in an additional capacity. "We have Necromunda for that" is like saying "We have WarCry, we don't need a skirmish-level AOS". Very different animals, but then again- it still baffles me that some people don't want additional ways to enjoy the models they paid absurd amounts of money for. Don't like the idea? If it ever manifests, feel free to pass on it. To each their own. I'll just have that, KT, and Necromunda.

 Wasteland wrote:
And if you wanna talk about GW's "f--k you, that's why" problems, let's talk about Necromunda's rulebooks....

Yeah, I really hate... waiting to "acquire" mine. I play with a group, we all pitch in on the books but we have our 'reference rulebooks' we carry with us that are clever little consolidated things that have all the relevant information we need as players. And you don't need all of the books, it's not 40k where you take these things to tournaments. Aside from the 2 core books, everything else is pretty much optional- you decide what you want to incorporate.

And I get it, the release schedule sucks. That's the result of what seems like 2 guys working on the whole thing, apparently confined to a broom closet somewhere in GW's basement. The system has its flaws, but it's made very clear that this is a game where the arbitrator and players will have to resolve some of the conflicts and confusion on their own like adults. This is anathema to "that guy" and it tends to be a different game, for a different group of people (I don't do PUG with anyone I don't know).

Kill Team is great if all you intend to buy is... what, 3 books and a box of dudes? Sure, that's a thing- and I won't say there isn't a time and a place for it. It has its moments of fun, and I'll never say hamburgers should be purged because they're not steaks. Sometimes, you just want a hamburger- and that's totally cool.

I just can't help but go and look at the articles about Kill Team, where the way the game was presented and the final product are very different. The campaign was a thrown-together afterthought. Customization is just a cosmetic endeavor. You're still restricted specifically to the sprues, an the only reason to venture outside of those sprues is for aesthetic reasons. The game isn't so much supported as it is given breadcrumbs from 40k proper.

It's not that Kill Team feels like a flat-out broken product. It feels like an incomplete product that was rushed, because it has a lot of potential. It can really, really shine if players sit down and tinker with it and come up with their own systems to tack onto it- but, of course, that is quite a bit of work. So far, we've found a few fun ways to shake it up... and it is a fantastic 'recruiting tool' for 40k. And we got some unique models from it (that I wish were more useful elsewhere).

Oh, well. It's GW, and their decisions are often half stupid and half brilliant. See: Inquisitor, the game that 'failed' because GW pulled support... because players weren't going to pay $30.00 for a 54mm model and would just use their own 28mm models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ultimately Warcry represents what GW wants their skirmish games to be: Everything is set in stone, done with cards, and that's it. Even the terrain set-ups are mandated by cards.

Terrain by cards was something I actually thought was pretty cool. Otherwise, that game is just... the amount time you end up playing it makes you actually regreat purchasing any of the models. Hopefully they'll be worth taking for Slaves to Darkness, because otherwise they're just mediocre Kitbash fodder or "counts as" models.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say they're pretty sweet kitbash fodder.

There are a few Cawdor gangs floating around on Facebook that use those raven folks as a base. Works pretty well.

I don't understand this discussion / comparison between necromunda and kill team.

for me they are 2 games with very different approaches.

Necromunda is a more complex game, but more focused on campaigns, and hallucinate with the progress of your gang members. You can also campaign with killteam, but it has 0 interesting progression, without any depth or opportunity to modify your miniatures.

however necromunda does not have a competitive tournament system, and this is where kill team comes in especially with rules like arena or adepticon

also a kill team game lasts an hour at most, while necromunda it can be lengthened a lot



as for the subject itself, I'm looking forward to seeing the changes in points, especially on the elite side (terminators, etc..) it can mean a drastic change of the meta.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wouldn't say that. I'd say they're pretty sweet kitbash fodder.

There are a few Cawdor gangs floating around on Facebook that use those raven folks as a base. Works pretty well.

Kitbashing Cawdor with the Unmade is a cool way to create Corpse Guilders, and there's people making quite a few Necromunda models with the other stuff- especially with Cawdor. Saw some pretty cool Goliath conversions using the Untamed Beasts.

The terrain cards are pretty great- for Kill Team or Necromunda, it's a pretty cool way to create a random battle zone. It's a quick way to set up a skirmish, I use them quite often.

I've removed all the wooden boards from the ruins and such and replaced them with Sector Imperialis broken platforms that are pretty much the same size as the wooden 'roof' parts. I've also been attaching lights and a few 'old dirty tech' pieces to the ruins. I have barricades from the Ork Mekboy garage to replace the spiked barricades. Once I can get the stairways from the new terrain, I should be set, with the exception of the walkway over the statue head. I'm sure I can manage something with the ladders and platform parts from Sector Mechanicus terrain.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
I find KT to be more tactically interesting than 40k proper.

Setting up a couple of models to provide covering fire so that advancing units can scuttle from LoS blocking cover (which we use a fair bit of) to other LoS blocking cover.

More cinematic, as a lone soldier peeks around a corner to fire from safety without having 5 models each lined up 1/8 of an inch to the right so each can draw LoS but still be in cover.

More intense. As a regular Guard player, redundancy is common but in KT each model, while expendable, is still a valuable piece sacrificed only for specific gain.

What I think I like best, is the Dogs (ranged specialists) hunting Cats (Melee specialists) hunting Mice (grunts) that are trying to score objectives. Not all teams can play that way, but as a player that likes Toolbox / TAC lists, I find that style plays well in KT.

I feel it’s a more interesting game, where decisions matter more than “bombing them before they bomb you”.

Everything you described here makes me think you'd also love Necromunda. And since you're a Guard player, it's easier for me to introduce guys like you to the game. I'll just tell you to grab a few of your guardsmen with some different loadouts, let me look over them, talk to you about them and show you some options, and now you're using N17 rules for your Guardsmen as a Venator gang. Quite a few IG players I know (especially those that liked KT) tried Necromunda like this, and to this very day they still use their Guardsmen Venators regularly.

My main gripe is that there's a bit more thought to what you're doing with everyone in KT than 40k proper- but it also doesn't always have the same synergy and flexibility. Chaos players, for example... very limited in the way they can play their units. IG, IMHO, is one of the most fun KT factions because there are so many unique and interesting options. Adeptus Astartes are pretty fun and flexible in KT. Deathwatch can be fairly flexible. Some Kill Teams are pretty predictable, and are one-trick ponies or are at least boringly predictable. Not that some 40k armies are like that, but at least in 40k there's always the option of doing things like combining two different Imperium detachments and developing an interesting combination, or even just using two detachments of different chapters of Space Marines together.

Tbf, SOA are a better choice for options for kt for a chaos player then csm propper

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf, SOA are a better choice for options for kt for a chaos player then csm propper

It's a blast to play against IG, because of all the variations in units that can be put down.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf, SOA are a better choice for options for kt for a chaos player then csm propper

It's a blast to play against IG, because of all the variations in units that can be put down.

Aye, but what annoys me the most, i lovingly made a 16 men strong KT out of CSM/PM , only to realise that my R&H equivalents get more indepth rules.

Also Negavolt cultists, nuff said.

Then again the elites book does quite a lot for CSM in terms of options for units, but less so again for equipment.

However thankfully they stated that equipment options will be added accordingly.

So, for my Sisters kill team, I'll only have access to Sisterss, Repentia and Arcoflagellants? Which means, with my current model collection, a Kill Team made entirely of Sisters of Battle? And only 2 of them can take a heavy or special weapon?
Damn. Can they still be viable?
Also I'm curious about the IG kill teams, what do they look like, how do they work? IIRC kill teams cannot have a huge number of models to compensate for low profile, how do IG manage to still pull their weight? Extra special weapons? More specialists? Just point Marbo at things and they die of fright?

I have, and probably will continue to, play a lot of Kill Team. I think the game is just better crafted than full 40k leading to a better gaming experience. It doesn't cover everything I would want as sometime I do want to play a bigger game with vehicles and such. However, between the two I greatly prefer Kill Team.

As much as I like Kill Team, some of the complaints posted here have merit. The Chaos Space Marine heavy/special weapon choices were anemic even after Elites (especially if you take look at loyalist choices) made all the more confusing that they actually had them as non-kit bashed parts. I think there is an argument to be made about including Chosen in Kill Team, but I don't really agree with the inclusion of Havocs. Yes, there are Heavy Support options for some factions but those options are usually pretty limited. Combined with the fact that Havocs can have some pretty powerful weapons that will likely make some Heretic Astartes look more like a tank hunting squad given how the game works. This largely goes double for Fast Attack options as the standard Kill Team board is pretty small and already tough stay out of combat for more than 2 rounds from a determined melee enemy.

The campaign system is very limited for Kill Team. Chances are not a lot of time was spent on making it. I am fine with that. Good or Bad rules, I doubt many players have, will or would have ever made use playing Kill Team in a campaign. I know I have been wanting to play even a short campaign and my gaming group hasn't really shown interest in it. For many players that I have met (if fact most Kill Team players I have met), this game is their first introduction to miniatures war gaming as they always wanted to play Warhammer 40k but could never afford the buy in. A complicated campaign would probably be a hindrance to new players like complicated campaigns usually are and often fizzle out because of it. So I don't mind the weak, tacked-on campaign system. Kill Team itself appears to have just been an attempt to allow players to have a fun game until they get a 'real' 40k army, and my impression is GW never thought the game would have much beyond that. I am sure it surprised them when the game became popular itself with many players having no intention to upgrade to the full game.

As for customization, I believe that goes beyond the design goals of Kill Team which was to give players with a small (read: starting) collection of models purpose until the player has a large enough collection to start playing full 40k. I think those same players that do move to full 40k would probably be a little dejected to find their custom Kill Team loadout isn't allowed. I would continue the argument that these should mostly be well fund militarizes that can give their troops proper equipment and expect these troops to follow rules and regulations. At least to the same level of suspension of disbelief that Chaos Space Marines strangely follow the Codex Astartes when it comes 1 special/heavy weapon per five marines deal.

@Hybrid Son of Oxayoti

I don't really know how Sisters of Battle are going be in Kill Team as special weapons are typically what makes a faction strong. I would imagine each data sheet will allow the same number of special/heavy weapons as a minimum woman sqaud including the sergeant options. So if two of the data sheets have those options that could be like 4 heavy/special weapons plus whatever sergeant has available. Coupled with a likely lower point cost I imagine SoB will have a sort of feel between Marine Scouts and Scions with close range weapons feel. If they are cheap enough, they might be able to field bolters in numbers making them worthwhile, but I kinda doubt that as they would probably have to be like base 8 points.

As to Imperial Guard, the Imperial Guard can basically have 8 special/heavy weapons. Special/Heavy weapons are under-cost making factions that can bring more of them more powerful. The most competitive generic choices are usually 8 plasmaguns with 4 being on regular guardsmen and 4 on Scions, a cheap leader that hides, a Comms specialist to continually buff a plasma shot, and a sniper plasma to re-roll those supercharged 1s.

Also don't poo-poo mooks, I won against Death Guard (considered one of the top tier factions in Kill Team) with my classic Chaos Space Marnes list of an Apsiring Champion (Powersword and Plasma Pistol), Heavy Bolter marine, Plasmagun marine, flamer cultist, heavy bolter cultist and the rest regular cultists. By simple weight of fire the cultists kept plinking away of the Death Guard and eventually they hit and wounded and the Nurgle marine failed their save and FNP. However, just the same I was making use of every special/heavy weapon I have available in the Core rulebook.

A good thing about Kill Team is that it allows players the opportunity to try out other factions beyond their chosen 40K army. Also, players in 40K seem to have wildly different ideas of what makes a standard game, but KT has a limit which helps to include everyone. 100-200 points limit in KT is pretty much a box of troops and maybe a commander. 40K, though, a player with 3 detachments might be annoyed when the other player turns up with only 1.

Not yet gone the Commanders route, but I'm hoping this annual include commander and elites choices for the Sisters, Kroots and Daemons. I know the Daemons didn't get a Commander, but not sure about the Sisters or Kroots.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I'm not asking for anything to be taken away from you, just something used in an additional capacity. "We have Necromunda for that" is like saying "We have WarCry, we don't need a skirmish-level AOS". Very different animals, but then again- it still baffles me that some people don't want additional ways to enjoy the models they paid absurd amounts of money for. Don't like the idea? If it ever manifests, feel free to pass on it. To each their own. I'll just have that, KT, and Necromunda.

Then why do you keep posting about Necromunda in a thread about a new Kill Team book? Just give it a rest already! I don't think it's bad to have "additional ways to enjoy the models they paid absurd amounts of money for", but please discuss it in some other thread.

SamusDrake wrote:
Not yet gone the Commanders route, but I'm hoping this annual include commander and elites choices for the Sisters, Kroots and Daemons. I know the Daemons didn't get a Commander, but not sure about the Sisters or Kroots.

I don't think daemons have had any Commander options (the daemon KT White Dwarf article was probably their most slapdash effort for the game to date). Hopefully we'll see that fixed in this book. The first Community article mentioned that Sisters will have the Canoness and Repentia Mistress as Commander choices. The Kroot WD article didn't include a Commander, but Dahyak Grekh from Blackstone Fortress is indeed a Kroot Commander, and his rules will be in this book, too.

I'm curious to see if they're mostly just reprinting points costs from the WD articles, or if they've actually gone back and made balance changes to everything a la Chapter Approved. I wouldn't mind seeing some things like Frag Cannon spam toned down a bit, although perhaps that's best done by limiting how many you can take rather than inflating the points cost. IMO, being able to take lots of special weapons should be limited to factions where it's a core part of the playstyle, like with Guard. In most places they got it right - Deathwatch being the most noticeable exception, but with the new options added to regular Marines it's started to creep in.

The article mentions "new heavy weapons" for Chaos, so I would guess that they'll also be including some of the Havoc options too (pretty sure that the base CSM kit just adds Missile Launcher?). Could be quite good, considering that CSM are already limited in how many heavy weapons they can spam out.

Glad to see the extra faction tactics from the OOP box sets being put back into print properly - now everyone will have equal access. I hope that they've also added in some for the factions that haven't got a box set yet, to keep things fair.

Please stop talking about Necromunda in a Kill Team thread and check out this.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/29/kill-team-annual-our-top-five-featuresgw-homepage-post-3/

Looking forward to this book. I love when stuff gets compiled.

Agreed. Moving on, I'm looking forward to ordering the annual tomorrow.

Thanks

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I would imagine each data sheet will allow the same number of special/heavy weapons as a minimum woman sqaud including the sergeant options. So if two of the data sheets have those options that could be like 4 heavy/special weapons plus whatever sergeant has available.

BSS (5 to 15 women squads) have access to 2 special, or one special and one heavy.
Dominions and Retributors (5 to 10 women squads) have access to 4 special or 4 heavy weapons.
Repentia and Arcoflagellants don't get guns.
If I can bring two heavy flamers and two melta/multi-melta I'd be happy, that sounds brutal at this scale.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
As to Imperial Guard, the Imperial Guard can basically have 8 special/heavy weapons. Special/Heavy weapons are under-cost making factions that can bring more of them more powerful. The most competitive generic choices are usually 8 plasmaguns with 4 being on regular guardsmen and 4 on Scions, a cheap leader that hides, a Comms specialist to continually buff a plasma shot, and a sniper plasma to re-roll those supercharged 1s.

Oh. Well I own a bunch of guard models, but they all come with very basic guns.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Also don't poo-poo mooks, I won against Death Guard (considered one of the top tier factions in Kill Team) with my classic Chaos Space Marnes list of an Apsiring Champion (Powersword and Plasma Pistol), Heavy Bolter marine, Plasmagun marine, flamer cultist, heavy bolter cultist and the rest regular cultists. By simple weight of fire the cultists kept plinking away of the Death Guard and eventually they hit and wounded and the Nurgle marine failed their save and FNP. However, just the same I was making use of every special/heavy weapon I have available in the Core rulebook.

What the usual model number difference between a mook-heavy kill team and an elite kill team? I guess you had 10 models, how many did the death guard had?

In general, a 5-man team is small. Grey Knights are essentially limited to 5 models in the core book. Losing even 1 model hurts, a lot.

A “normal” team focussed on maximizing upgrades, like loyalist marines, would usually be 7-8 models. If you try to include a couple of cheap, bare bones objective grabbers / campers, 10 models would be typical. I have an Ork team, half-upgrades and half basic boys with a pair of Gretchen. Pretty sure they’re 13 models all-in.

I’d say that 8-10 models would be a middle-of-the-road number. Fewer is a small team, larger is a horde team.

So you can get a kill team with more than 10 models! I thought you couldn't, but maybe I was mixing with Shadow War Armageddon.
You can play a 20/30 grots kill team, for instance?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So you can get a kill team with more than 10 models! I thought you couldn't, but maybe I was mixing with Shadow War Armageddon.
You can play a 20/30 grots kill team, for instance?

max 20 miniatures. min 3

Cool, I can get a 20 guards kill team!

Looks like we're starting to see some of the books out in the wild! A few quick notes on what I've seen so far:
(the video I'm getting these from is here)

Lots of missions and tactics from previous OOP products; not anything we didn't know already but nice to have it all in one place and available.

Chaos: Heavy weapon options are now Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Autocannon. A reasonable list, although I was kinda hoping to see some of the ones from Havocs.

Sisters: The two Gunners have free pick from the list (so you can take two special weapons or two heavy weapons or whatever you want). Flamer, Meltagun, Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer.
Shield of Faith gives you a 6+ Invulnerable, plus you can try to Deny psychics with 1D6. A Simulacrum buffs the Invul to 5+ for everybody within 6". A decent spread of options for the Sister Superior, but they're laid out a bit weird (not a big surprise) so it looks like you can't take a combi-weapon and a power sword at the same time. Oddly though it looks like you could give her a Bolt Pistol and Plasma Pistol at the same time? A decent list of Specialisms for Battle Sisters.

Repentia are Max 1. Very strange. I have to wonder if that's a typo? I haven't seen the weapon stats so far, but Repentia don't seem so powerful that their numbers would have to be so limited (1W, T3, at best a 5+ Invul with Simulacrum and then 5+ FNP). They also have four different Specialisms (including Leader for some reason). Very strange.

Maybe it's to give you a reason to take Arco-flagellants, which strike me as too similar to Repentia to be really interesting. They pick up an extra wound, but lack any kind of save and just have the same 5+ FNP. They're worse at hitting too, but can take one upgraded guy with +1 Attack. It'll come down to weapon stats and points.

The Canoness looks to have quite good stats and a reasonable selection of weapons, although it looks like some of the weirdness around the equipment for the limited-edition Canoness has carried over from 40k (a bit too literally - the point that specifies the equipment for that variant is written in a very 40k style "one boltgun, one power sword..." where all the others (and all the others in Kill Team) are written less mechanically: "boltgun, power sword...")

Repentia Mistress is definitely the budget Commander option, not much in the way of options and looks to (unsurprisingly) best be paired with Repentia (but WHY only 1??). Again, without points cost and weapon stats we can't say how good any of this will be.

Taddeus (and probably Pious Vorne too?) from Blackstone Fortress have been updated so you can take them with Sisters.

and no points change ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Oh. Well I own a bunch of guard models, but they all come with very basic guns.

For Imperial Guard, I believe they are 5points (yeah, in Kill Team IG are 5 and Chaos Cultist are 4) so a 20 man team is 100pts right there. If I haven't mentioned it already, special/heavy weapons are underpointed in Kill Team making them extra good. It is the main reason Imperial Guard is so good as their team are among the factions that can bring the most. I think playing an all lasgun guard team is okay to learn how the mechanics differ in Kill Team, but I think you will probably find that team doesn't hold up all that will against even mediocre teams save its skew list advantage for some missions or some early lucky kills. Even without scions (though I think scions are great), I would at least suggest some flamers since they auto-hit ignoring the range/cover penalties of Kill Team and the boards are that big. I also like grenade launchers myself, but krak grenades are a pale comparison to a plasmagun to tackle MEQs. However, grenade launchers come with the basic guardsmen kit and I can't remember if plasmaguns do. Only one if they do.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Also don't poo-poo mooks, I won against Death Guard (considered one of the top tier factions in Kill Team) with my classic Chaos Space Marnes list of an Apsiring Champion (Powersword and Plasma Pistol), Heavy Bolter marine, Plasmagun marine, flamer cultist, heavy bolter cultist and the rest regular cultists. By simple weight of fire the cultists kept plinking away of the Death Guard and eventually they hit and wounded and the Nurgle marine failed their save and FNP. However, just the same I was making use of every special/heavy weapon I have available in the Core rulebook.

What the usual model number difference between a mook-heavy kill team and an elite kill team? I guess you had 10 models, how many did the death guard had?

My Black Legion kill team was an Aspiring champion with power sword and plasma pistol, heavy bolter marine, plasmagun marine, flamer cultist, heavy stubber cultists and autogun cultist x10. So 15 units in total. My team was built on the common idea that non-special/heavy marines aren't as good their points in cultists. His team had at least one blightlord terminator maybe two, a plague marine with a flail and what seemed like a bolter plague marine. Ultimately, the Death Guard had some very expensive units with very expensive weapons. He had 5 man team for a 125 point game.

As for the game, largely what the Death Guard hit they put Flesh Wounds at range. Flesh Wounds are something a unit gets when in full 40k they would be killed and the attacking player doesn't roll very high on their Injury Roll. In short, it is another player of protection to keep models on the board. In melee, the Death Guard killed any cultist they attacked especially that flail (it's why I remember it). However, I could afford keep feeding the Death Guard a cultist or two every round to largely tarpit them and buying myself more time. All the while focus firing with everything else to bring down a plague marine or blightlord. In a combination of weight of fire and the Death Guard being out in the open I eventually removed two of them opening up the board to capture the win conditions of that particular game.

pLeAsE sToP wItH tHe NeCrOmUnDa!

I swear to Christ, it's like some folks can't skim over content. Or that comparing a product to the topic is irrelevant. Let the mods delete it if it's a problem.

Also, really-

There's nothing new at all related to campaigns. Doesn't even look like the points were adjusted, just compiled.

Did they at least include the Blackstone Fortress missions?

The Repentia Superior's aura ability refers to multiple Repentia models. The '1' limit must be a typo, particularly given the unlimited access to arco-flagellants. I will certainly be treating it as '-.'

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I swear to Christ, it's like some folks can't skim over content. Or that comparing a product to the topic is irrelevant. Let the mods delete it if it's a problem.

This isn't just one giant chatroom. Things are sorted into threads so that folks can find and discuss topics that they find relevant. The best part is, if there's something you want to discuss and there isn't already a thread for it, you can just make one! It's free!
Bringing it up once in comparison to another product being discussed isn't a problem, but you just keep. banging. on. about. it. How many other people have to tell you that's not what they're in this thread to discuss? Mod deletion isn't the first line for keeping things on track, it's the last.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


There's nothing new at all related to campaigns. Doesn't even look like the points were adjusted, just compiled.

Did they at least include the Blackstone Fortress missions?

No new campaign rules, although with nothing mentioned regarding campaigns in the previews that's not surprising. A lack of points changes seems like a bit of a missed opportunity, but the state of points cost is (IMO) broadly decent so there's nothing glaring that absolutely needed fixing now.
I haven't seen the entire missions section yet, but I haven't seen any mention of the Blackstone Fortress missions. Playing KT with the Blackstone tiles always struck me as a niche within a niche, but it wouldn't hurt if they were included.

You know, I'm starting to think that maybe Kill Team isn't the game for you. Have you tried Necromunda? I've heard that it's great

callidusx3 wrote:
The Repentia Superior's aura ability refers to multiple Repentia models. The '1' limit must be a typo, particularly given the unlimited access to arco-flagellants. I will certainly be treating it as '-.'

I looked at that myself - I'm not 100% sure of the logic, since the way it's written would apply just as well to a single Repentia as it would to many (which is actually good rules writing, IMO). But there seems to be so much other stuff (Commander tactics, faction tactics, etc) that interact specifically with Repentia that it seems nonsense that you could only have one of them. I'm still going to paint up all four from the Army Box.

So I am hearing the missions are just reprints from the faction box sets.. So are the tactic cards in the book the same??.. So if you missed a faction set this book will give you that information?

But what about the terrain special rules that came with the kill zones box sets?? That would be the only information released so far not covered.

You can see the table of contents on the preorder page. It doesn't appear to have the killzone contents.

It also doesn't seem to have ever mission. Going through my cards for matched play, it seems to lack:
Fire At Will
Stealth Siphon
Burning Battlefield
Scavenge Supplies
Fearless Foraging
Make Your Escape
Under Bombardment
Seize the Bunker
Cover For the Storm
Shoot Out
Take the High Ground
Find the Relic
Destined One

I've also got 23 narrative missions, while the TOC only has 16 (since I don't have every expansion, the total is probably 5-10 cards higher)

I did notice that the non-included missions explicitly stated they were played on a specific killzone, while the included ones can be played with any terrain. I don't remember which cards went with which expansions, but it is possible these were the ones included with the killzones and not the unit boxes.

 Wasteland wrote:
Bringing it up once in comparison to another product being discussed isn't a problem, but you just keep. banging. on. about. it. How many other people have to tell you that's not what they're in this thread to discuss? Mod deletion isn't the first line for keeping things on track, it's the last.

Two and a half. Special emphasis on the half, and I'll need photographic evidence.

Also, I strongly beg to differ on it being the last. I've seen some... things.

 Wasteland wrote:
No new campaign rules, although with nothing mentioned regarding campaigns in the previews that's not surprising. A lack of points changes seems like a bit of a missed opportunity, but the state of points cost is (IMO) broadly decent so there's nothing glaring that absolutely needed fixing now.
I haven't seen the entire missions section yet, but I haven't seen any mention of the Blackstone Fortress missions. Playing KT with the Blackstone tiles always struck me as a niche within a niche, but it wouldn't hurt if they were included.

Sad that they weren't. KT and Necromunda have both been a reason for me to collect every 40k game board I could manage to get my hands on. Some were just the board/tiles, but overall I found that it's really cool doing claustrophobic battles where snipers aren't the top dogs.

 Wasteland wrote:
You know, I'm starting to think that maybe Kill Team isn't the game for you. Have you tried Necromunda? I've heard that it's great

Well, I was always capable of taking a 40k stat line and using an individual model from that squad, which is pretty much what KT did

Considering earlier articles advertised that KT was taking campaign ideas from Necromunda, you're probably right. Time frame was roughly July 2018 when they announced it. Still kind of irks me that they didn't put a bit more emphasis on it. I wouldn't be too horribly bothered if they added an expanded version of it later, with appropriate missions. I doubt it would ever be as complex, but a larger, structured system for it would be rather nice.

Kill Team is fine for what it is. They are very different games- I am much more confident playing KT with strangers, and Necromunda requires a degree of book-keeping and commitment to a campaign. I actually banged out a KT game today, and it was pretty fun. Used the Space Hulk tiles- and this was the jackpot, some dude brings that in and the box is damaged, the minis are missing/broken, and the rulebook is missing. Best 20 bucks I ever spent (he was trying to sell it for like 10, and I couldn't let him).

I was thinking i would pick up the book for the Daemons rules, but they seem so low effort on there own i not sure i want to bother for them on there own.
Maybe depends on what else the book offers, But i think i may use this as my jumping off point for the game.

I'm glad to see the Ambull rules are included in this annual and is included as a "random monster". It will be interesting to see how those rules play out...

SamusDrake wrote:
I'm glad to see the Ambull rules are included in this annual and is included as a "random monster". It will be interesting to see how those rules play out...

It'd be nice to see a mission.

...would also be nice to see it packaged without its rules for BSF, because the current price is a bit steep.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
I'm glad to see the Ambull rules are included in this annual and is included as a "random monster". It will be interesting to see how those rules play out...

It'd be nice to see a mission.

...would also be nice to see it packaged without its rules for BSF, because the current price is a bit steep.

You can use an Umberhulk from D&D as a reasonable stand in, which is respectable for £5. Comes primed too so it gets to the tabletop that much quicker.

So according to the Tabletop minions guy there is no differentiation between the Ork boy boss nob and elites nob points cost for carrying a power klaw in the annual. Is this a mistake or did I miss an errata which changed the power klaw from the core book.

Coleslaw wrote:
So according to the Tabletop minions guy there is no differentiation between the Ork boy boss nob and elites nob points cost for carrying a power klaw in the annual. Is this a mistake or did I miss an errata which changed the power klaw from the core book.

Perhaps they lowered them all to the original KT book's price? There was no reason to take a klaw over a saw in Elites, as they were the same price and you got a bonus AP and reliable damage out of the saw.

There are a lot of pricing issues that I hope they took the opportunity to address with the annual. Just sticking with nobz as the example, cybork body needs to come massively down before anyone's ever going to think about using it. A 6+++ for a 33% increase in cost is insane.

Having seen the online reviews of the annual, I'm not as convinced now.

28 pages of points updates which have not been changed save for an ork weapon or two. The argument for this is "we have it all in one book", when there is only three books to be concerned about and there still needs to be a copy of Commanders or Elites if playing with such units. This is obviously a good thing for 40K for all its codex and campaign sups but for Kill Team its not quite a priority when the teams are much smaller.

If playing a Commanders game then Daemon players are not sharing in the love. Its true that the faction could take 200 points of Daemons, but its a bit disappointing that your opponent can have their snazzy HQs but you have to make do with only garden variety Daemons. The Sisters of Battle on the other hand have two commanders to enjoy, while the Kroots can at least have Dayak from BSF. A Skulltaker, Masque or Changeling are but some of the options that could have been included here.

Otherwise, its not bad. I'll probably get it just for the BSF and Sisters rules.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Even without scions (though I think scions are great), I would at least suggest some flamers since they auto-hit ignoring the range/cover penalties of Kill Team and the boards are that big. I also like grenade launchers myself, but krak grenades are a pale comparison to a plasmagun to tackle MEQs. However, grenade launchers come with the basic guardsmen kit and I can't remember if plasmaguns do. Only one if they do.

My problem is that I don't use the guardsman kit, I'm using some very nice kits from Victoria Miniatures, but I didn't get any special weapon :(.

Thanks for all the info though. I'm sensing I'll just play a two heavy flamer Sister kill team .

Based on what I've seen so far, I have to say I'm feeling a bit disappointed with the rules for Sisters. Not that they don't seem reasonably competitive - as far as I can make out from some of the blurry videos (BoLS fails again!) a Battle Sister is 9 points base, which I think compares very favorably to Scions at the same points cost, even though Scions have access to more special weapons and access to Orders.

++EDIT: Going back over some of the footage, it's quite difficult to make out but it kind of looks like boltguns might be 1 point instead of free, making a standard Sister 10 points rather than 9. Considering Scions at 9pts and tac marines at 12pts, this seems reasonable).

What really brings me down is the absence of any interesting, faction specific rule to represent what makes Sisters unique and interesting. Guard have Orders, Tau have Markerlights, Tyranids have Synapse, Dark Eldar have Power from Pain, AdMech have Canticles, etc... I genuinely expected Sisters to have something along those lines with Acts of Faith or Miracle Dice or something more to set them apart beyond just being Marines with S3/T3. It doesn't need to be very powerful or even all that good (looking at you, Tau Markerlights) but something that's characterful and interesting. Shield of Faith isn't bad (especially with a Simulacrum) but it's primary bonus is no different than, say, bionics for Admech. The chance to Deny against pyskers is a nice bonus, but is pretty niche and with 1D6 you'll have to get pretty lucky to see any benefit.

Another of the problem also seems to be tied into other issues with the game. Certain (faction-specific and characterful) items like the Brazier of Holy Fire and the Condemnor Boltgun are specifically good against Daemons... but good luck actually finding an opponent with Daemons to play against, 'cause the daemon list is a slapped-together mess that they absolutely should have taken this opportunity to fix and add to. How hard would it have been to add rules for even just a couple Commander options? Literally every other faction in the game has at least one.

On a related note, the Sisters list clearly isn't fully up to speed compared to ones that started out in the Core book. While I'm glad they remembered to include Commanders, there's no Elites content here. No subfaction rules and no elite units (Dear God, at least I hope they don't think that Repentia and Flagellants count). The structure of the Sisters in the larger 40k context doesn't leave tons of room (since most of the elite or special units are variants on the regular Battle Sisters with more special weapons) but if Marines can have Vanguard Veterans flying around with Jump Packs, how would it hurt the game to have a few Seraphim in there?

I'm still buying the book and I'm still looking forward to finally building my Sisters of Battle kill team, but it stings to think of how much better things could have been with just a little bit more effort from GW.

++EDIT: A bit more info for those who don't want to pick through badly-shot video:

As mentioned Sisters are 9pts, with Sister Superior and Gunners 10pts
Arco-Flagellants are 13pts, 14 for your lone Extra Attack Man.
Repentia are also 13pts.
No video I've found so far shows the melee weapon points costs, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that Flagellants and Repentia won't pay extra for them.
Most heavy and special weapons are 3pts (pretty standard). Heavy Flamer is 4, Storm Bolter is 2.
The Canoness seems like an absolute steal for (pretty sure I'm reading this right) 40pts before gear. Can't see yet if the equipment would be really expensive to cancel that out a bit, but really does look like you'll get a lot for a little.
It's hard to see, but the Repentia Mistress looks to be 30pts. Not unreasonable, but I can't really imagine taking one when the Canoness is only 10 more.

The Repentia and Arco-Flagellant weapons are quite different, which I like - the Eviscerator is basically a Power Fist with a flat D2, while the Arco Flails have poorer strength, AP and damage but each attack becomes D3 attacks, a la Death Guard plague flail. I like how it pushes each unit into a bit of a different role and stand out a bit from each other.

 Wasteland wrote:


I'm still buying the book and I'm still looking forward to finally building my Sisters of Battle kill team, but it stings to think of how much better things could have been with just a little bit more effort from GW.

I have now been playing the current edition of Kill Team for over a year. Almost all of my games with CSM (I have only played Orks a little more than CSM) have been with my Heavy Bolter Gunner (pic in the Spoiler). That model has been an absolute beast on the table. Not because the rules are particularly good for heavy bolters (they aren't bad either), but because that model is apparently favored by Khorne. My new sculpt heavy bolter marine gets killed first round practically every game. What I am getting at is, for more than a year one of my two special/heavy weapons slots for Chaos Space Marines had to be the heavy bolter. Things could have always been better for a wide swath of the factions in Kill Team. That is just the nature of the game. Only so much effort is ever going in to it and factions/units rules are going to be limited by the model kit/their 40k rules by design. Still, I think Kill Team is still much tighter than regular 40k though.



I figure SoB will land somewhere in the middle (lower middle) of the pack in terms of power. They will probably be at least as good as Space Marine Scout only or Scion only team. Which I will admit isn't great, but it isn't too bad either unless you want to play on the bleeding edge of the power of the game. I could see them doing fine in my group. Depending on how many flamers they can have on hand, they might be downright scary since almost all players have a Tyranid team and it is rare no one is not running them any given Sunday.

I think you may have missed my point a little bit - I'm not especially concerned with how powerful the Sisters list is, but how interesting it is.

Sisters in 40k for years have had rules representing how their faith lets them do things that are beyond just their stat line. In many factions previously represented in KT, the designers have added interesting and characterful rules to show how that faction operates (I cited plenty of examples above). I'm very disappointed that giving Sisters some kind of rule to represent what makes the faction different and interesting (which they have, and have had for a very long time in 40k) was neglected. I don't care if it would have made Sisters more or less powerful on the tabletop (I would expect that if such a rule was significantly useful, it would entail an increase in points per model).

I don't think the comparison to the Chaos Heavy Bolter is all that applicable. At the time the rules were written, it made sense - the CSM kit of the time only included the Heavy Bolter. It should have been fixed sooner (when the new kit was released), but there was a reason for it in the first place.

It's also a much easier fix - one that could easily be done in a WD article (or indeed in a book like the Annual). All you have to do is add one more line and a points cost for a new heavy weapon. A faction-specific rule that can effect every model in the team is a much bigger fix. And frankly, they're not going to do it. This is the Sisters list we get, at least until GW decides to do some sort of "Kill Team 2nd Edition".

So yeah, I'm disappointed, and I don't think it's fair to just shrug and say "well, things are never perfect". I've been waiting for this ever since KT came out, and it's clear that GW just didn't spend a lot of time or care creating rules to represent Sisters in KT. I expected better.

I'll ask this here while the thread is fresh, rather than start a new thread...

I've not bought Commanders nor Elites, but aware that they increase the points limits to 200 and 125(is that correct?) respectively. But is it legal for one player to use Commander and Elite units while the other player sticks with core-manual units, so long as they adhere to the new point limits?

Also, I've heard that Commanders only allows the player to field only one unit from the list in the book, yet some Commanders are only 20 points while others are more than 100 points. Are there any exceptions to that rule?

Cheers.

I'm reasonably sure you can pick from any book and may take up to one commander when the scenario allows. I got caught by surprise myself first time I played, I've got one of the factions with 30 point commanders, so I brought two without having read much. But no, only one commander max, and I don't believe you're required to take one either.

Thanks for that YeOldSaltPotato( I enjoyed typing that! ).

One unit that definitely belonged in the core-manual was the Eldar Warlock. It seemed strange not to have a Psyker for the most psycially-inclined 40K race, and at only 20 points its on par with a Tyranid warrior. Especially when the Core manual has only 2 or 3 Psykers...not much point in having the psychic phase if you ask me!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Cool, I can get a 20 guards kill team!

I had success with just horde of 20 barebone guardsmen, no special weapons or fancy stuff. Replace one for Ogryn if you play on 125p.

SamusDrake wrote:
I'll ask this here while the thread is fresh, rather than start a new thread...

I've not bought Commanders nor Elites, but aware that they increase the points limits to 200 and 125(is that correct?) respectively. But is it legal for one player to use Commander and Elite units while the other player sticks with core-manual units, so long as they adhere to the new point limits?

Also, I've heard that Commanders only allows the player to field only one unit from the list in the book, yet some Commanders are only 20 points while others are more than 100 points. Are there any exceptions to that rule?

Cheers.

A player is not really required to take a Commander when playing a 'Commanders' game. Although, that is kinda the point to playing Commanders games and the reason for the points increase. By and large players tend to consider Commanders a special sort of game. Sort of like old Apocalypse where you didn't have to take big units (back when there were Apocalypse only models) but that was the point for many players. I haven't played a whole lot of Commanders as they really throw a lot of balance out the window since as you mention several options cause a player to have a smaller team than they would at 125. While at the same time making it way too easy for several factions to run full 20 unit teams. And those teams often can take a hit unlike the usual 'horde' teams of Kill Team. All of which really bogs the pace of the game down; at least for me it does. I don't mind Commanders games from time to time, but given my druthers, I would rather not play it.

As for Elites, I find it best just consider the non-Commanders units add more unit options not worth considering separate from the core rules. That said, most Elites options aren't really going to make teams anymore powerful. In fact, usually the opposite as those units are too much of a point sink to get enough work from them (looking at you terminators). Not to mention a few factions didn't get any new unit options from Elites anyways. The only important thing is if one player is using subfaction traits (read: chapter tactics) then both players should. The subfaction traits are more of a mixed bag. There are a few that absolutely make their faction more powerful (Grey Knights, Thousand Sons come to mind) but good number don't have a whole lot of effect on the game. I will admit that I was a little surprised how little disruption they cause in Kill Team though. Originally, I thought they would upend balance, but they really haven't. I think they work better for the 125pt games over the 100pt games mostly as factions playing the Psyker factions has a bit more chaff to absorb Mortal Wounds. Plus, with 125pts those terminator options are little less of a handicap.

I would recommend to anyone going into a new Kill Team group or even starting one to probably use both Core and Elites with lists (yes, I know Kill Team uses rosters) ready for both 100 and 125 point games. Even a year later, I know several players that have teams without enough models to reach 125pts and specialist upgrades usually make for poor fillers since they aren't that familiar with the game. That same lack of models is why I stopped bringing rosters and started bringing lists as it felt unfair to have the ability to list tailor when my opponent did not.

Finally, my biggest recommendation: When in doubt, bring an Ork Nob and lots of Ork Boyz.

I appreciate your thoughts.

The dilemma is wanting to keep to the core-manual but to also respect another player if they wish to field elites or a commander. For me its taking part that matters, and don't mind filling out the points if it were the case.

Cheers.

SamusDrake wrote:
I appreciate your thoughts.

The dilemma is wanting to keep to the core-manual but to also respect another player if they wish to field elites or a commander. For me its taking part that matters, and don't mind filling out the points if it were the case.

Cheers.

In that case, Elites is no big deal. I would suggest having a subfaction in mind so it is easier to turn those rules on/off. I just play the subfaction that my models are painted as to keep it easy. Most of the time I still forget I have those rules anyways. Commanders is a tad trickier but also works just increasing the size of your team to 200 points if you got the models and they are expensive enough to reach 200 points. The first Commanders game I played GSC and kept switching out neophytes for genestealers since I was leaving some 20 points on the table since the Kellermorph was my only HQ model at the time.

Yes, an extra 25 points for Elites is certainly accomodating. My primary teams are Tau and Tyranids, so its just the addition of a stealth suit and Lictor that is called for. And those units can still give the elites a bloody nose.

I think if a Commanders game does crop up, I'd start looking at the extra units in elites. Even with a numerically superior force I'd still be a bit concerned with a Broodlord popping over to say hello.

Speaking of which, what happened to the Kellermorph model? The most badass looking GSC model and they've done away with it! Absolutely disgraceful!

 Hawky wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Cool, I can get a 20 guards kill team!

I had success with just horde of 20 barebone guardsmen, no special weapons or fancy stuff. Replace one for Ogryn if you play on 125p.

Nice! I just need to finish painting some more guards! Also how is Marbo doing? I got a not-Marbo from Victoria miniature coming!

Elites in Kill Team is still played at 100 points. It only jumps up with Commanders, which I've never seen anyone play. And the units are rarely actual "Elites".

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Elites in Kill Team is still played at 100 points. It only jumps up with Commanders, which I've never seen anyone play. And the units are rarely actual "Elites".

The way they go about specifying it is a bit odd. If you take a look at the missions in the Elites book, they all state that your kill teams can cost up to 125 points (except the ones that also mention Commanders, which go up to 200 points like the scenarios in the Commanders book).

In Commanders, it states up front that you can only use Commanders in scenarios that specifically say you can - pretty much all of which tell you that you can build teams of up to 200 points. To clarify (since there seemed to be some confusion earlier in the thread) that 200 points can be any combination of your Commander and regular kill team units. So you can take a cheap Commander and lots of regular guys, or an expensive one with just a couple other models as backup.

Elites, however, just says that you can drop the (non-Commanders-related) rules from that book into regular games as played in the Core Rulebook. Therefore, the "official" points limit depends on if you're playing a scenario from the Core Book (100 points) or one from the Elites book (which as mentioned, are all 125 points).

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're using units from Elites you might as well play with the extra 25 points regardless of scenario, but you and your opponent should just work out how big a game you want to play with and go from there.

Its alright, posted too late.

So the 125 point limit is not updated Battle-Forged rules(as on page 62 of the core manual) but just for the given missions/scenarios?

SamusDrake wrote:
Its alright, posted too late.

So the 125 point limit is not updated Battle-Forged rules(as on page 62 of the core manual) but just for the given missions/scenarios?

Pretty much. The Core book scenarios don’t mention point limits, as at the time everything was just the 100pt standard. Scenarios in Elites and Commanders will tell you how many points you can play with in them, and if you’re allowed to use a Commander.

Ah then that puts that topic to bed. Thank you all very much for helping out on that one.

SamusDrake wrote:
Its alright, posted too late.

So the 125 point limit is not updated Battle-Forged rules(as on page 62 of the core manual) but just for the given missions/scenarios?

technically speaking a point limit only exists if the mission states one exists, and you use the stated limit. My friend and I played one of the sector mechanicus exclusive missions the other day that said: "set a point limit, the attacker can take an additional 20 points than the defender." So we went with the elites 125 points and he brought 145.

The Commander Expansion is also with the Primaris Only Commanders for Space Marines ad absurdum...

Well, there is still Terminator Commanders to choose from - they're still old-school.

 AduroT wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Its alright, posted too late.

So the 125 point limit is not updated Battle-Forged rules(as on page 62 of the core manual) but just for the given missions/scenarios?

Pretty much. The Core book scenarios don’t mention point limits, as at the time everything was just the 100pt standard. Scenarios in Elites and Commanders will tell you how many points you can play with in them, and if you’re allowed to use a Commander.

One last note - the scenarios also reference the Battle-Forged Kill Team rules from pg. 62 of the Core Book, and then just tack on the difference in points. So, all the other usual rules for Battle-Forged apply as normal.

Having now got my hands on the Annual, I was wrong about the points cost for Battle Sisters. Bolters are in fact 0pts, meaning a standard Sister is only 9. Compared to something like Scions (also 9pts) that seems remarkably low.
Still lamenting the lack of any cool faction rules for Sisters

Finally got my copy of the book in the mail (it got lost by USPS) aaaaand I'm missing the first 16 pages of the book! Creating my own specialisms wasn't high on my priority list, but would have been nice to read through. No table of contents makes it pretty difficult to find stuff. Am I the only one who got a defect copy?

 Talarius wrote:
Finally got my copy of the book in the mail (it got lost by USPS) aaaaand I'm missing the first 16 pages of the book! Creating my own specialisms wasn't high on my priority list, but would have been nice to read through. No table of contents makes it pretty difficult to find stuff. Am I the only one who got a defect copy?

All the people i hang around got the book whole intact so maybe you were unlucky.

Ah well. Luck of the draw, I guess. I sent GW an email, so hopefully they'll replace it.

I guess it will only be conversions using enforcers as scions or marine explorers, but interesting:

SamusDrake wrote:


Speaking of which, what happened to the Kellermorph model? The most badass looking GSC model and they've done away with it! Absolutely disgraceful!

Goes up for preorder as a clampack on the 8th. Was only part of that gang box before.

zamerion wrote:
I guess it will only be conversions using enforcers as scions or marine explorers, but interesting:

It's Wade Pryce's force for the Arbites, and it sounds like the GSC are Peachy's!

They're Space Marines. Here's some pictures from his Twitter:

The "Arbitrators"(sniper rifles, shotguns, and boltguns) are counts-as Scouts, maul+shield and ram are "Dominators" and counts as Deathwatch Veterans(storm shield and frag cannons respectively), the fancy "Dominator Sergeant" is the Deathwatch Sergeant.

FWIW, 20 Daemonettes, including an Alluress, Icon and an Instrument, comes to exactly 150pts. There are no Daemon commanders and no options other than an Alluress, Icon and an Instrument.

It's pretty hard to get to 200pts of Astra Militarum, too, unless you go heavy on Scions/Ogryn. I have a Company Commander, Sergeant, Tempestor, 2 Scion Gunners, 3 Guard Gunners, a SW Guards Gunner and eleven 'mooks' for exactly 150pts.

Only Level 1 Commanders in Matched Play really doesn't help, and also means you can never take Marbo (who is Level 3) in a pick-up Matched Play game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

zamerion wrote:
I guess it will only be conversions using enforcers as scions or marine explorers, but interesting:

It's Wade Pryce's force for the Arbites, and it sounds like the GSC are Peachy's!

They're Space Marines. Here's some pictures from his Twitter:

Spoiler:

The "Arbitrators"(sniper rifles, shotguns, and boltguns) are counts-as Scouts, maul+shield and ram are "Dominators" and counts as Deathwatch Veterans(storm shield and frag cannons respectively), the fancy "Dominator Sergeant" is the Deathwatch Sergeant.

Pretty sure that's the 'gang' from Dark Uprising with head-swaps. Venators, or something.

He means that he's using the Space Marine & Death Watch codex books for the rules to represent the models.

 BrookM wrote:
He means that he's using the Space Marine & Death Watch codex books for the rules to represent the models.

Correct. They're playing Open/Narrative rather than comp it sounds like, which is how he has the dog and all the stuff mixed in together.

The names I posted are literally what the guy who converted those model labeled them as. He knows they're not Palantine Enforcers, which is why they have Marine Scout Shotguns instead of the 'standard civilian junk' that the Palantines have.

Look like this will be the Arbites team for today stream.

Funny. Our group was just discussing how it would be great if GW would release Kill Team rules for Necromunda gangs.

 BrookM wrote:
He means that he's using the Space Marine & Death Watch codex books for the rules to represent the models.

I had a brainfart and thought this was a Necromunda thread.