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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
How is the current Killteam campaign system different from Necromunda?

Necromunda is an actual campaign. Wider variety of scenarios, wargear, advancements, expanding your roster, consequences, advantages to taking a particular territory/racket, etc. There's strategy to who you challenge, what you take, and what you build.

Kill Team's campaign is "don't lose, add an ability to a guy after a few games". It's a sad imitation at best.

Comparing the two campaigns is like comparing a massive buffet to a few packets of crackers and cheese on a table.

 Flinty wrote:
II think the kill team campaign is more true to a formal military force with access to standardized resources, and with troops pretty much at peak performance. Necromunda is very much trying to get your lowest of the low scum to survive just long enough for them to be a bit less than awful

A ganger that hits you on a 2+ isn't what I'd call awful, considering the guard regularly utilizes house Van Saar for their skillset. The underhive isn't a bunch of talentless scrubs barely getting by- we have actual comparisons to things like Guardsmen in the books (guard vets gone rogue, Ogryn, etc.)

 Apple Peel wrote:
I think you should look at it again. The KT campaign system definitely does have a resource system, deaths, and injuries. Individuality? What do you mean by that? I’m quite sure a lot of people have their dudes with their own fluff and converted/kitbashed models. There is an ability tree for each specialist type. Tell me what you mean by champions. I could view a Tier 3 or 4 specialist as a kind of champion. What do you by skills? There are various tactics unlocked by different specialists as they level up that can be used through command points.

Considering that Kill Team restricts you to toys that are in a specific box, and your individual units are nothing but a stat line from 40k- no, it's a trash-tier imitiation. A joke. A "Campaign" that some intern probably scribbled up in an afternoon.

I promise you, if I sit you down and we play Necromunda, you will feel a sting on your cheek, because that'd be the slap in the face that Kill Team's campaign is.

Kill Team is 40k lite. That's it.


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RazorEdge wrote:
Nay, N17 40k would be lame.

Let's hope more many Years of KT releases.

Yeah, it's lame if you're really into dumbed-down 40k.


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 Apple Peel wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/28/kill-team-choose-your-specialist-subjectgw-homepage-post-4/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kkillteam271119
Ha! Will you look at that!

You're joking, right? This is you saying it's like Necromunda?

I have a dude in my gang right now that can dual-wield pistols, and he ignores a point of cover. He's got two Autopistols, and I've got every possible type of nasty round you can add- frag, rad, phosphor, manstopper, and normal- and he's got suppressors on them, because that actually matters. He's also got a las-carbine, just in case. Additionally, he has rad grenades, flash grenades, smoke grenades. He has carapace armor, an armored undersuit, a camo-cloak, nightvision goggles,

Essentially, in the dark, you can't even see him but he can see you at 12". If he doesn't move, even if you get close you're at a penalty to shoot him. And if he shoots you, you can't see him when he does because he has suppressors. And he's got a nasty mix of grenades, to shred your toughness, make himself smoked (so you can't see him, but he can see you), and he's got decent enough armor to survive.

This is ONE model. One individual guy.

A few pictures of yanked-from-the-box marines, nothing more than a copy/pasted stat-line... that someone bothered to name and pick a few basic skills for is about as weak a comparison as I've ever seen. Necromunda isn't just cosmetic kitbashing. You might need that skill, especially if you want black market weapons. And some of the hangers-on. Necromunda had no support for years, well over a decade- and people still kept the game alive until N17 happened. Kill Team only has support because they can keep shoving 40k units down into it, with a slightly modified data sheet- it's literally the crumbs of a larger game.

Necromunda is objectively a superior game. Kill Team is just a step above Warcry.

Don’t be a pretentious jackhat. I didn’t say anything about Necromunda. This is a new post from a day later about stuff in the new Annual that is extremely relevant to the last conversation by mere chance.


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Necromunda may be executed well, but I could care less about a game about scummy gangs on a crime planet. I’ll take Killteam because I like taking actual 40K operators. Tell me when Necromunda has Scion or Space Marine rules and I’ll be interested.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Don’t be a pretentious jackhat. I didn’t say anything about Necromunda. This is a new post from a day later about stuff in the new Annual that is extremely relevant to the last conversation by mere chance.

Oh, I thought you were using that article as 'proof'.

Also, I lol'd at the servo skull use. In Necromunda, they have an actual purpose. All four types.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Necromunda may be executed well, but I could care less about a game about scummy gangs on a crime planet. I’ll take Killteam because I like taking actual 40K operators. Tell me when Necromunda has Scion or Spae Marine rules and I’ll be interested.

"Scion Rules"... LOL

Do you mean, "A guy in carapace armor, with a respirator and photo-goggles, a skilled marksman and reliably tough trooper, Hot-Shot las-weapons"?

I can do exactly that in Necromunda with a Venator gang, replicate that exact sort of unit, and then load him up with a Heavy Bolter and a shotgun, if you want. Not only can I meet that, but I can do better.

Oh, and if you want the actual rules for playing a Space Marine- you wouldn't be doing it against Necromunda gangs, but the Horus Heresy weekender had rules for N17 using Astartes for a single mission. That, you know, actually work better than Kill Team games.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Don’t be a pretentious jackhat. I didn’t say anything about Necromunda. This is a new post from a day later about stuff in the new Annual that is extremely relevant to the last conversation by mere chance.

Oh, I thought you were using that article as 'proof'.

Also, I lol'd at the servo skull use. In Necromunda, they have an actual purpose. All four types.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Necromunda may be executed well, but I could care less about a game about scummy gangs on a crime planet. I’ll take Killteam because I like taking actual 40K operators. Tell me when Necromunda has Scion or Spae Marine rules and I’ll be interested.

"Scion Rules"... LOL

Do you mean, "A guy in carapace armor, with a respirator and photo-goggles, a skilled marksman and reliably tough trooper, Hot-Shot las-weapons"?

I can do exactly that in Necromunda with a Venator gang, replicate that exact sort of unit, and then load him up with a Heavy Bolter and a shotgun, if you want. Not only can I meet that, but I can do better.

Oh, and if you want the actual rules for playing a Space Marine- you wouldn't be doing it against Necromunda gangs, but the Horus Heresy weekender had rules for N17 using Astartes for a single mission. That, you know, actually work better than Kill Team games.

So counts-as? Do they get access to orders? What about Tau or Death Guard? Can I play with the new Sisters of Battle?


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Also, can that Venator Gang Aerial Drop three models into the game? What about terminator deepstriking?

The annual is shaping up to be a must-have.

 Apple Peel wrote:

So counts-as? Do they get access to orders? What about Tau or Death Guard? Can I play with the new Sisters of Battle?


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Also, can that Venator Gang Aerial Drop three models into the game? What about terminator deepstriking?

There are no Space Marines and Terminators in Necromunda. As far as a Venator "Dropping Three Models" from the air? Sure, you could give three different guys Infiltrate (which functions the same way), but you'd be stupid to give them all the same skillset. Because unlike 40k, there's always a counter and your opponent has found it, so you don't waste one trick on multiple guys. Because three deep-striking/Infiltrating guys sounds awesome until your opponent does the same with one Ambot and mulches all of them. Or he plays a card where he forces you to redploy your guy where HE wants him to be. Or even better, he isolates you in a killbox.

A venator gang is "use what models you want". Now, because it's Necromunda most people would roll their eyes and not welcome Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Etc. I have, however, seen Tau used. I've seen Ork Commandos, Inquisitorial Retinues, Rogue Traders, etc. It's all about selecting the profile that suits them best and kitting out the model you like.

If your argument is, "I want Kill Team because Space Marines and Scions and other 40k stuff", then you're understanding my argument about exactly why there should be a variant N17 system for 40k units. And think for a moment I'm not tinkering with it.

Because as much as Kill Team is fun for a boredom killer, imagine this-

You're a Kill Team and you're selecting what you do. Your opponents control various territories, or artifacts, or any sort of maguffin you want. Except, each of those maguffins offer an overall advantage to your Kill Teams (and to your army back at the main lines, for fluff). You decide which of those objectives you want to seize. You decide who you're going to fight- and your opponents get to do the same.

You get a stealth mission, and you're sneaking your Astartes into an Alpha Legion outpost. Your sergeant leads, with a breaching shield and storm bolter- and he's got your Eliminator with a suppressed Bolt Sniper Rifle taking a position on an elevated platform. Your Incursor sneaks in and kills a Legionnaire from behind with his power knife and suppressed bolt pistol. An Alpha Legion Champion opens the door on his patrol and sees you, but you hack a nearby terminal to force the door to slam on him as he enters and kill him before the alarm sounds. But, one of the Legionnaire's managed to spot you, and get to cover and take shots at you with a Reaper Chaincannon. So your Infiltrator grabs the relic, and drags it out- while your Reiver ambushes a squad of cultists with his chainglaive to cover you. Your Eliminator manages to cover you from reinforcements, but is hit- and falls from the ledge. He survives, but one of his eyes was shot out- so you have a permanent penalty to his BS until you get him a bionic eye. After this mission, you requisition some specialized ammo, and decide to give your Reiver a power glaive and your Incursor a Volkite Serpenta.

Now, that's just 40k stuff swapped out with Necromunda stuff- and all of that scenario has rules specifically for the mission.

My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

I agree.

You should be able to run out with a Reiver slinging two heavy bolt pistols, with the Occulus optics on each of them. A Primaris Intercessor with a Power Axe and shotgun, loaded with incendiary rounds. You should be able to break out the bits box and make some insane stuff that would never be legal in 40k.

If the excuse is "well they are a standardized military", then I ask you- have you ever spoken to someone from SF? They don't tend to use "standard" equipment on covert ops. A kill team would be far from the standard guys, it'd be a selected (or voluntold) group of guys sent in, and would have access to a few options that a normal rank and file Joe wouldn't.

That's my grudge. Kill Team doesn't encourage actual conversions for any reason other than cosmetics, and I already do a lot of that (I play Deathwatch, FFS). Kill Team is just meant to be a gateway to 40k, or a game to play with something you've pulled out of your army box. At some point, there will be a "Kill Team: Vehicles" at this rate.

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

It's called Open Play.....

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

It's called Open Play.....

The same gear restriction are in Open too.

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
It's called Open Play.....

Open Play doesn't completely alter the rules. It's just more tolerant about what you put down. And considering KT is 40k with a few odd steps and little tweaks, that's not really hard to do. This week I put an Eversor assassin against a Kill Team and it was pretty fun. That's what Open Play is for.

He's talking about a drastic overhaul, where he builds each individual guy in his team from the ground up. Armor, weapons, ammo types, grenades, and even things like optics, climbing equipment, ammo harnesses, etc.

Me and Crimson agree on very little and have had our spats before, but his attitude toward this whole thing makes me want to invite him over and let him poop with the door open so we can make Shadow War: N17 Kill Team Boogaloo.


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EDIT: Also, @apple peel: Sorry if I came off as a jerk, I'm pretty passionate about 'converting people over'. I re-read things and it sounded pretty harsh, I suppose.

Either way, I have to STRONGLY suggest you try Necromunda. If you would like, I could even lay out an idea for a Venator gang for you that incorporates Scions and Guardsmen, if you particulaly like the aesthetics of those models.

A key thing to remember is that KT can let you put down 20 guys at a time. Necromunda, you're using like 6-7, so you're micro-focused on what that guy does.

In a way, it's like 40k... except instead of a squad you kit out, you're kitting out an individual dude. And putting that much thought into what his role is going to be.

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

And more options for the factions. Why the feth can't I have raptors for my night lords but sm get vanguard veterans?

Trying to convince people to play necromunda seems completely off topic in the thread about the Kill Team annual. Please go do that somewhere else.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

And more options for the factions. Why the feth can't I have raptors for my night lords but sm get vanguard veterans?

Because they did Kill Team: Elites and haven't done Kill Team: Fast Attack. Its a wacky system, with a bizarre model of introducing more models to a squad based game.

Voss wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are. I want bigger variety of base models to be available and I want to be able to freely kitbash weapon combinations. I want Inq28 madness. Make such rules 'narrative only' or whatever, they should exist.

And more options for the factions. Why the feth can't I have raptors for my night lords but sm get vanguard veterans?

Because they did Kill Team: Elites and haven't done Kill Team: Fast Attack. Its a wacky system, with a bizarre model of introducing more models to a squad based game.

But oddly enough, Elites lets us take Eliminators- which are Heavy Support and Suppressors which are Fast Attack.

They got absurdly lazy with CSM. The sad part is, they didn't even bother to update CSM rules to reflect the CSM Sprues that came out at the same exact time as the Vanguard Veterans that were in the Elites rulebook. For perspective- Elites dropped about a month after Shadowspear, and the Vanguard marines had rules in KT:Elites. And just in the past couple of months, 2 of the 3 new Vanguard Units were given their own multi-part kits and almost immediately, we got updated rules for them in White Dwarf.

Now that you know this, this is where it gets stupid:

Chaos Space Marines have had their Marines, Havocs, and a few other kits out since f--king MARCH of this year... and their Kill Team profiles for basic CSM Warriors hasn't changed in the slightest since the game first dropped- all KT:Elites gave to CSM was some HQ units (you can't use these in the majority of KT games), Khorne Berserkers, Possessed (pointless), and Terminators (overcosted to pointlessness). No Havocs, sucks to be you. Just throw more cultists at it, I guess. Oh, and no- Servants of the Abyss (Chaos from Blackstone Fortress) has its own Kill Team, and are considered completely separate from CSM. Why? I guess because f--k you, that's why.

My advice to anyone who wants to play Chaos Space Marines in Kill Team? You should just run them "Counts as Loyalist Space Marines" if you want to have anything other than a pittance for weapons options. Intercessors have more weapon options than Chaos Space Marines.

Part 2 of my grudge with Kill-Team: It's absurdly restricted to what comes in the box of models, unless it's Chaos Space Marines. Why? Because f--k you, that's why.

The whole final product of Kill-Team seems like a rushed and half-assed attempt to convince people it's a real game and not some slightly-adjusted copy-paste job designed to be a gateway into Warhammer 40k. If they in any way intended Kill-Team to be its own Specialist game, it'd have been done much better.

I mean, let's be real honest here- literally the only reason you would ever need to kitbash or convert a model for Kill-Team is for aesthetics. It does not require you to do so in order to create a functional unit, because unless they sell the model(s) in a box with that wargear- you can't play it- so there's no reason to make any interesting kitbashes/conversions for anything other than cosmetic reasons.

Why? Because f--k you, that's why.

Which is extreme, I know GW isn't being deliberately assy like some villain- it's just a disappointment and an overall pain in the rear. It's almost like the only reason to play Kill Team is because you're short on time and/or space, you don't have an actual army but have a few models for a faction, or you're being introduced to 40k. If none of those are a concern, then you have no real reason to play it at all.

I find KT to be more tactically interesting than 40k proper.

Setting up a couple of models to provide covering fire so that advancing units can scuttle from LoS blocking cover (which we use a fair bit of) to other LoS blocking cover.

More cinematic, as a lone soldier peeks around a corner to fire from safety without having 5 models each lined up 1/8 of an inch to the right so each can draw LoS but still be in cover.

More intense. As a regular Guard player, redundancy is common but in KT each model, while expendable, is still a valuable piece sacrificed only for specific gain.

What I think I like best, is the Dogs (ranged specialists) hunting Cats (Melee specialists) hunting Mice (grunts) that are trying to score objectives. Not all teams can play that way, but as a player that likes Toolbox / TAC lists, I find that style plays well in KT.

I feel it’s a more interesting game, where decisions matter more than “bombing them before they bomb you”.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I find KT to be more tactically interesting than 40k proper.

Setting up a couple of models to provide covering fire so that advancing units can scuttle from LoS blocking cover (which we use a fair bit of) to other LoS blocking cover.

More cinematic, as a lone soldier peeks around a corner to fire from safety without having 5 models each lined up 1/8 of an inch to the right so each can draw LoS but still be in cover.

More intense. As a regular Guard player, redundancy is common but in KT each model, while expendable, is still a valuable piece sacrificed only for specific gain.

What I think I like best, is the Dogs (ranged specialists) hunting Cats (Melee specialists) hunting Mice (grunts) that are trying to score objectives. Not all teams can play that way, but as a player that likes Toolbox / TAC lists, I find that style plays well in KT.

I feel it’s a more interesting game, where decisions matter more than “bombing them before they bomb you”.

Everything you described here makes me think you'd also love Necromunda. And since you're a Guard player, it's easier for me to introduce guys like you to the game. I'll just tell you to grab a few of your guardsmen with some different loadouts, let me look over them, talk to you about them and show you some options, and now you're using N17 rules for your Guardsmen as a Venator gang. Quite a few IG players I know (especially those that liked KT) tried Necromunda like this, and to this very day they still use their Guardsmen Venators regularly.

My main gripe is that there's a bit more thought to what you're doing with everyone in KT than 40k proper- but it also doesn't always have the same synergy and flexibility. Chaos players, for example... very limited in the way they can play their units. IG, IMHO, is one of the most fun KT factions because there are so many unique and interesting options. Adeptus Astartes are pretty fun and flexible in KT. Deathwatch can be fairly flexible. Some Kill Teams are pretty predictable, and are one-trick ponies or are at least boringly predictable. Not that some 40k armies are like that, but at least in 40k there's always the option of doing things like combining two different Imperium detachments and developing an interesting combination, or even just using two detachments of different chapters of Space Marines together.

Ok, we got it. You really, really like Necromunda. Thanks.

While I appreciate that Kill Team would be improved by a more flexible approach to army lists and wargear, I like it for what it is - Kill Team has effectively replaced 40k for me, with a game that scratches the same itch but smaller, cheaper and with much less bloat and "codex churn". It isn't Necromunda and we don't want it to be (we have Necromunda for that).

And if you wanna talk about GW's "f--k you, that's why" problems, let's talk about Necromunda's rulebooks...

 Crimson wrote:
My biggest peeve with Kill Team is how restricted the modelling options are.

Something that shouldn't really surprise any of us by now.

Ultimately Warcry represents what GW wants their skirmish games to be: Everything is set in stone, done with cards, and that's it. Even the terrain set-ups are mandated by cards.

 Wasteland wrote:
Ok, we got it. You really, really like Necromunda. Thanks.

No need to be a smartass. But you're right, I've been repeating myself. The average person that hasn't played it won't agree, anyway.

Wasteland 782838 10645305 f0d501f51965acfbf6e07b571a994438.pn wrote:While I appreciate that Kill Team would be improved by a more flexible approach to army lists and wargear, I like it for what it is - Kill Team has effectively replaced 40k for me, with a game that scratches the same itch but smaller, cheaper and with much less bloat and "codex churn". It isn't Necromunda and we don't want it to be (we have Necromunda for that).

By that logic, we also had 40k to use for Kill Team, and it's not like there are drastic, sweeping changes to any of the units from Codex to KT books... I mean, Kill Team could have been a White Dwarf article over a few pages and managed almost the same result.

I'm not asking for anything to be taken away from you, just something used in an additional capacity. "We have Necromunda for that" is like saying "We have WarCry, we don't need a skirmish-level AOS". Very different animals, but then again- it still baffles me that some people don't want additional ways to enjoy the models they paid absurd amounts of money for. Don't like the idea? If it ever manifests, feel free to pass on it. To each their own. I'll just have that, KT, and Necromunda.

 Wasteland wrote:
And if you wanna talk about GW's "f--k you, that's why" problems, let's talk about Necromunda's rulebooks....

Yeah, I really hate... waiting to "acquire" mine. I play with a group, we all pitch in on the books but we have our 'reference rulebooks' we carry with us that are clever little consolidated things that have all the relevant information we need as players. And you don't need all of the books, it's not 40k where you take these things to tournaments. Aside from the 2 core books, everything else is pretty much optional- you decide what you want to incorporate.

And I get it, the release schedule sucks. That's the result of what seems like 2 guys working on the whole thing, apparently confined to a broom closet somewhere in GW's basement. The system has its flaws, but it's made very clear that this is a game where the arbitrator and players will have to resolve some of the conflicts and confusion on their own like adults. This is anathema to "that guy" and it tends to be a different game, for a different group of people (I don't do PUG with anyone I don't know).

Kill Team is great if all you intend to buy is... what, 3 books and a box of dudes? Sure, that's a thing- and I won't say there isn't a time and a place for it. It has its moments of fun, and I'll never say hamburgers should be purged because they're not steaks. Sometimes, you just want a hamburger- and that's totally cool.

I just can't help but go and look at the articles about Kill Team, where the way the game was presented and the final product are very different. The campaign was a thrown-together afterthought. Customization is just a cosmetic endeavor. You're still restricted specifically to the sprues, an the only reason to venture outside of those sprues is for aesthetic reasons. The game isn't so much supported as it is given breadcrumbs from 40k proper.

It's not that Kill Team feels like a flat-out broken product. It feels like an incomplete product that was rushed, because it has a lot of potential. It can really, really shine if players sit down and tinker with it and come up with their own systems to tack onto it- but, of course, that is quite a bit of work. So far, we've found a few fun ways to shake it up... and it is a fantastic 'recruiting tool' for 40k. And we got some unique models from it (that I wish were more useful elsewhere).

Oh, well. It's GW, and their decisions are often half stupid and half brilliant. See: Inquisitor, the game that 'failed' because GW pulled support... because players weren't going to pay $30.00 for a 54mm model and would just use their own 28mm models.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ultimately Warcry represents what GW wants their skirmish games to be: Everything is set in stone, done with cards, and that's it. Even the terrain set-ups are mandated by cards.

Terrain by cards was something I actually thought was pretty cool. Otherwise, that game is just... the amount time you end up playing it makes you actually regreat purchasing any of the models. Hopefully they'll be worth taking for Slaves to Darkness, because otherwise they're just mediocre Kitbash fodder or "counts as" models.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say they're pretty sweet kitbash fodder.

There are a few Cawdor gangs floating around on Facebook that use those raven folks as a base. Works pretty well.

I don't understand this discussion / comparison between necromunda and kill team.

for me they are 2 games with very different approaches.

Necromunda is a more complex game, but more focused on campaigns, and hallucinate with the progress of your gang members. You can also campaign with killteam, but it has 0 interesting progression, without any depth or opportunity to modify your miniatures.

however necromunda does not have a competitive tournament system, and this is where kill team comes in especially with rules like arena or adepticon

also a kill team game lasts an hour at most, while necromunda it can be lengthened a lot



as for the subject itself, I'm looking forward to seeing the changes in points, especially on the elite side (terminators, etc..) it can mean a drastic change of the meta.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wouldn't say that. I'd say they're pretty sweet kitbash fodder.

There are a few Cawdor gangs floating around on Facebook that use those raven folks as a base. Works pretty well.

Kitbashing Cawdor with the Unmade is a cool way to create Corpse Guilders, and there's people making quite a few Necromunda models with the other stuff- especially with Cawdor. Saw some pretty cool Goliath conversions using the Untamed Beasts.

The terrain cards are pretty great- for Kill Team or Necromunda, it's a pretty cool way to create a random battle zone. It's a quick way to set up a skirmish, I use them quite often.

I've removed all the wooden boards from the ruins and such and replaced them with Sector Imperialis broken platforms that are pretty much the same size as the wooden 'roof' parts. I've also been attaching lights and a few 'old dirty tech' pieces to the ruins. I have barricades from the Ork Mekboy garage to replace the spiked barricades. Once I can get the stairways from the new terrain, I should be set, with the exception of the walkway over the statue head. I'm sure I can manage something with the ladders and platform parts from Sector Mechanicus terrain.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
I find KT to be more tactically interesting than 40k proper.

Setting up a couple of models to provide covering fire so that advancing units can scuttle from LoS blocking cover (which we use a fair bit of) to other LoS blocking cover.

More cinematic, as a lone soldier peeks around a corner to fire from safety without having 5 models each lined up 1/8 of an inch to the right so each can draw LoS but still be in cover.

More intense. As a regular Guard player, redundancy is common but in KT each model, while expendable, is still a valuable piece sacrificed only for specific gain.

What I think I like best, is the Dogs (ranged specialists) hunting Cats (Melee specialists) hunting Mice (grunts) that are trying to score objectives. Not all teams can play that way, but as a player that likes Toolbox / TAC lists, I find that style plays well in KT.

I feel it’s a more interesting game, where decisions matter more than “bombing them before they bomb you”.

Everything you described here makes me think you'd also love Necromunda. And since you're a Guard player, it's easier for me to introduce guys like you to the game. I'll just tell you to grab a few of your guardsmen with some different loadouts, let me look over them, talk to you about them and show you some options, and now you're using N17 rules for your Guardsmen as a Venator gang. Quite a few IG players I know (especially those that liked KT) tried Necromunda like this, and to this very day they still use their Guardsmen Venators regularly.

My main gripe is that there's a bit more thought to what you're doing with everyone in KT than 40k proper- but it also doesn't always have the same synergy and flexibility. Chaos players, for example... very limited in the way they can play their units. IG, IMHO, is one of the most fun KT factions because there are so many unique and interesting options. Adeptus Astartes are pretty fun and flexible in KT. Deathwatch can be fairly flexible. Some Kill Teams are pretty predictable, and are one-trick ponies or are at least boringly predictable. Not that some 40k armies are like that, but at least in 40k there's always the option of doing things like combining two different Imperium detachments and developing an interesting combination, or even just using two detachments of different chapters of Space Marines together.

Tbf, SOA are a better choice for options for kt for a chaos player then csm propper

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf, SOA are a better choice for options for kt for a chaos player then csm propper

It's a blast to play against IG, because of all the variations in units that can be put down.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tbf, SOA are a better choice for options for kt for a chaos player then csm propper

It's a blast to play against IG, because of all the variations in units that can be put down.

Aye, but what annoys me the most, i lovingly made a 16 men strong KT out of CSM/PM , only to realise that my R&H equivalents get more indepth rules.

Also Negavolt cultists, nuff said.

Then again the elites book does quite a lot for CSM in terms of options for units, but less so again for equipment.

However thankfully they stated that equipment options will be added accordingly.

So, for my Sisters kill team, I'll only have access to Sisterss, Repentia and Arcoflagellants? Which means, with my current model collection, a Kill Team made entirely of Sisters of Battle? And only 2 of them can take a heavy or special weapon?
Damn. Can they still be viable?
Also I'm curious about the IG kill teams, what do they look like, how do they work? IIRC kill teams cannot have a huge number of models to compensate for low profile, how do IG manage to still pull their weight? Extra special weapons? More specialists? Just point Marbo at things and they die of fright?

I have, and probably will continue to, play a lot of Kill Team. I think the game is just better crafted than full 40k leading to a better gaming experience. It doesn't cover everything I would want as sometime I do want to play a bigger game with vehicles and such. However, between the two I greatly prefer Kill Team.

As much as I like Kill Team, some of the complaints posted here have merit. The Chaos Space Marine heavy/special weapon choices were anemic even after Elites (especially if you take look at loyalist choices) made all the more confusing that they actually had them as non-kit bashed parts. I think there is an argument to be made about including Chosen in Kill Team, but I don't really agree with the inclusion of Havocs. Yes, there are Heavy Support options for some factions but those options are usually pretty limited. Combined with the fact that Havocs can have some pretty powerful weapons that will likely make some Heretic Astartes look more like a tank hunting squad given how the game works. This largely goes double for Fast Attack options as the standard Kill Team board is pretty small and already tough stay out of combat for more than 2 rounds from a determined melee enemy.

The campaign system is very limited for Kill Team. Chances are not a lot of time was spent on making it. I am fine with that. Good or Bad rules, I doubt many players have, will or would have ever made use playing Kill Team in a campaign. I know I have been wanting to play even a short campaign and my gaming group hasn't really shown interest in it. For many players that I have met (if fact most Kill Team players I have met), this game is their first introduction to miniatures war gaming as they always wanted to play Warhammer 40k but could never afford the buy in. A complicated campaign would probably be a hindrance to new players like complicated campaigns usually are and often fizzle out because of it. So I don't mind the weak, tacked-on campaign system. Kill Team itself appears to have just been an attempt to allow players to have a fun game until they get a 'real' 40k army, and my impression is GW never thought the game would have much beyond that. I am sure it surprised them when the game became popular itself with many players having no intention to upgrade to the full game.

As for customization, I believe that goes beyond the design goals of Kill Team which was to give players with a small (read: starting) collection of models purpose until the player has a large enough collection to start playing full 40k. I think those same players that do move to full 40k would probably be a little dejected to find their custom Kill Team loadout isn't allowed. I would continue the argument that these should mostly be well fund militarizes that can give their troops proper equipment and expect these troops to follow rules and regulations. At least to the same level of suspension of disbelief that Chaos Space Marines strangely follow the Codex Astartes when it comes 1 special/heavy weapon per five marines deal.

@Hybrid Son of Oxayoti

I don't really know how Sisters of Battle are going be in Kill Team as special weapons are typically what makes a faction strong. I would imagine each data sheet will allow the same number of special/heavy weapons as a minimum woman sqaud including the sergeant options. So if two of the data sheets have those options that could be like 4 heavy/special weapons plus whatever sergeant has available. Coupled with a likely lower point cost I imagine SoB will have a sort of feel between Marine Scouts and Scions with close range weapons feel. If they are cheap enough, they might be able to field bolters in numbers making them worthwhile, but I kinda doubt that as they would probably have to be like base 8 points.

As to Imperial Guard, the Imperial Guard can basically have 8 special/heavy weapons. Special/Heavy weapons are under-cost making factions that can bring more of them more powerful. The most competitive generic choices are usually 8 plasmaguns with 4 being on regular guardsmen and 4 on Scions, a cheap leader that hides, a Comms specialist to continually buff a plasma shot, and a sniper plasma to re-roll those supercharged 1s.

Also don't poo-poo mooks, I won against Death Guard (considered one of the top tier factions in Kill Team) with my classic Chaos Space Marnes list of an Apsiring Champion (Powersword and Plasma Pistol), Heavy Bolter marine, Plasmagun marine, flamer cultist, heavy bolter cultist and the rest regular cultists. By simple weight of fire the cultists kept plinking away of the Death Guard and eventually they hit and wounded and the Nurgle marine failed their save and FNP. However, just the same I was making use of every special/heavy weapon I have available in the Core rulebook.

A good thing about Kill Team is that it allows players the opportunity to try out other factions beyond their chosen 40K army. Also, players in 40K seem to have wildly different ideas of what makes a standard game, but KT has a limit which helps to include everyone. 100-200 points limit in KT is pretty much a box of troops and maybe a commander. 40K, though, a player with 3 detachments might be annoyed when the other player turns up with only 1.

Not yet gone the Commanders route, but I'm hoping this annual include commander and elites choices for the Sisters, Kroots and Daemons. I know the Daemons didn't get a Commander, but not sure about the Sisters or Kroots.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I'm not asking for anything to be taken away from you, just something used in an additional capacity. "We have Necromunda for that" is like saying "We have WarCry, we don't need a skirmish-level AOS". Very different animals, but then again- it still baffles me that some people don't want additional ways to enjoy the models they paid absurd amounts of money for. Don't like the idea? If it ever manifests, feel free to pass on it. To each their own. I'll just have that, KT, and Necromunda.

Then why do you keep posting about Necromunda in a thread about a new Kill Team book? Just give it a rest already! I don't think it's bad to have "additional ways to enjoy the models they paid absurd amounts of money for", but please discuss it in some other thread.

SamusDrake wrote:
Not yet gone the Commanders route, but I'm hoping this annual include commander and elites choices for the Sisters, Kroots and Daemons. I know the Daemons didn't get a Commander, but not sure about the Sisters or Kroots.

I don't think daemons have had any Commander options (the daemon KT White Dwarf article was probably their most slapdash effort for the game to date). Hopefully we'll see that fixed in this book. The first Community article mentioned that Sisters will have the Canoness and Repentia Mistress as Commander choices. The Kroot WD article didn't include a Commander, but Dahyak Grekh from Blackstone Fortress is indeed a Kroot Commander, and his rules will be in this book, too.

I'm curious to see if they're mostly just reprinting points costs from the WD articles, or if they've actually gone back and made balance changes to everything a la Chapter Approved. I wouldn't mind seeing some things like Frag Cannon spam toned down a bit, although perhaps that's best done by limiting how many you can take rather than inflating the points cost. IMO, being able to take lots of special weapons should be limited to factions where it's a core part of the playstyle, like with Guard. In most places they got it right - Deathwatch being the most noticeable exception, but with the new options added to regular Marines it's started to creep in.

The article mentions "new heavy weapons" for Chaos, so I would guess that they'll also be including some of the Havoc options too (pretty sure that the base CSM kit just adds Missile Launcher?). Could be quite good, considering that CSM are already limited in how many heavy weapons they can spam out.

Glad to see the extra faction tactics from the OOP box sets being put back into print properly - now everyone will have equal access. I hope that they've also added in some for the factions that haven't got a box set yet, to keep things fair.

Please stop talking about Necromunda in a Kill Team thread and check out this.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/29/kill-team-annual-our-top-five-featuresgw-homepage-post-3/

Looking forward to this book. I love when stuff gets compiled.