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SamusDrake wrote:
I'll ask this here while the thread is fresh, rather than start a new thread...

I've not bought Commanders nor Elites, but aware that they increase the points limits to 200 and 125(is that correct?) respectively. But is it legal for one player to use Commander and Elite units while the other player sticks with core-manual units, so long as they adhere to the new point limits?

Also, I've heard that Commanders only allows the player to field only one unit from the list in the book, yet some Commanders are only 20 points while others are more than 100 points. Are there any exceptions to that rule?

Cheers.

A player is not really required to take a Commander when playing a 'Commanders' game. Although, that is kinda the point to playing Commanders games and the reason for the points increase. By and large players tend to consider Commanders a special sort of game. Sort of like old Apocalypse where you didn't have to take big units (back when there were Apocalypse only models) but that was the point for many players. I haven't played a whole lot of Commanders as they really throw a lot of balance out the window since as you mention several options cause a player to have a smaller team than they would at 125. While at the same time making it way too easy for several factions to run full 20 unit teams. And those teams often can take a hit unlike the usual 'horde' teams of Kill Team. All of which really bogs the pace of the game down; at least for me it does. I don't mind Commanders games from time to time, but given my druthers, I would rather not play it.

As for Elites, I find it best just consider the non-Commanders units add more unit options not worth considering separate from the core rules. That said, most Elites options aren't really going to make teams anymore powerful. In fact, usually the opposite as those units are too much of a point sink to get enough work from them (looking at you terminators). Not to mention a few factions didn't get any new unit options from Elites anyways. The only important thing is if one player is using subfaction traits (read: chapter tactics) then both players should. The subfaction traits are more of a mixed bag. There are a few that absolutely make their faction more powerful (Grey Knights, Thousand Sons come to mind) but good number don't have a whole lot of effect on the game. I will admit that I was a little surprised how little disruption they cause in Kill Team though. Originally, I thought they would upend balance, but they really haven't. I think they work better for the 125pt games over the 100pt games mostly as factions playing the Psyker factions has a bit more chaff to absorb Mortal Wounds. Plus, with 125pts those terminator options are little less of a handicap.

I would recommend to anyone going into a new Kill Team group or even starting one to probably use both Core and Elites with lists (yes, I know Kill Team uses rosters) ready for both 100 and 125 point games. Even a year later, I know several players that have teams without enough models to reach 125pts and specialist upgrades usually make for poor fillers since they aren't that familiar with the game. That same lack of models is why I stopped bringing rosters and started bringing lists as it felt unfair to have the ability to list tailor when my opponent did not.

Finally, my biggest recommendation: When in doubt, bring an Ork Nob and lots of Ork Boyz.

I appreciate your thoughts.

The dilemma is wanting to keep to the core-manual but to also respect another player if they wish to field elites or a commander. For me its taking part that matters, and don't mind filling out the points if it were the case.

Cheers.

SamusDrake wrote:
I appreciate your thoughts.

The dilemma is wanting to keep to the core-manual but to also respect another player if they wish to field elites or a commander. For me its taking part that matters, and don't mind filling out the points if it were the case.

Cheers.

In that case, Elites is no big deal. I would suggest having a subfaction in mind so it is easier to turn those rules on/off. I just play the subfaction that my models are painted as to keep it easy. Most of the time I still forget I have those rules anyways. Commanders is a tad trickier but also works just increasing the size of your team to 200 points if you got the models and they are expensive enough to reach 200 points. The first Commanders game I played GSC and kept switching out neophytes for genestealers since I was leaving some 20 points on the table since the Kellermorph was my only HQ model at the time.

Yes, an extra 25 points for Elites is certainly accomodating. My primary teams are Tau and Tyranids, so its just the addition of a stealth suit and Lictor that is called for. And those units can still give the elites a bloody nose.

I think if a Commanders game does crop up, I'd start looking at the extra units in elites. Even with a numerically superior force I'd still be a bit concerned with a Broodlord popping over to say hello.

Speaking of which, what happened to the Kellermorph model? The most badass looking GSC model and they've done away with it! Absolutely disgraceful!

 Hawky wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Cool, I can get a 20 guards kill team!

I had success with just horde of 20 barebone guardsmen, no special weapons or fancy stuff. Replace one for Ogryn if you play on 125p.

Nice! I just need to finish painting some more guards! Also how is Marbo doing? I got a not-Marbo from Victoria miniature coming!

Elites in Kill Team is still played at 100 points. It only jumps up with Commanders, which I've never seen anyone play. And the units are rarely actual "Elites".

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Elites in Kill Team is still played at 100 points. It only jumps up with Commanders, which I've never seen anyone play. And the units are rarely actual "Elites".

The way they go about specifying it is a bit odd. If you take a look at the missions in the Elites book, they all state that your kill teams can cost up to 125 points (except the ones that also mention Commanders, which go up to 200 points like the scenarios in the Commanders book).

In Commanders, it states up front that you can only use Commanders in scenarios that specifically say you can - pretty much all of which tell you that you can build teams of up to 200 points. To clarify (since there seemed to be some confusion earlier in the thread) that 200 points can be any combination of your Commander and regular kill team units. So you can take a cheap Commander and lots of regular guys, or an expensive one with just a couple other models as backup.

Elites, however, just says that you can drop the (non-Commanders-related) rules from that book into regular games as played in the Core Rulebook. Therefore, the "official" points limit depends on if you're playing a scenario from the Core Book (100 points) or one from the Elites book (which as mentioned, are all 125 points).

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if you're using units from Elites you might as well play with the extra 25 points regardless of scenario, but you and your opponent should just work out how big a game you want to play with and go from there.

Its alright, posted too late.

So the 125 point limit is not updated Battle-Forged rules(as on page 62 of the core manual) but just for the given missions/scenarios?

SamusDrake wrote:
Its alright, posted too late.

So the 125 point limit is not updated Battle-Forged rules(as on page 62 of the core manual) but just for the given missions/scenarios?

Pretty much. The Core book scenarios don’t mention point limits, as at the time everything was just the 100pt standard. Scenarios in Elites and Commanders will tell you how many points you can play with in them, and if you’re allowed to use a Commander.

Ah then that puts that topic to bed. Thank you all very much for helping out on that one.

SamusDrake wrote:
Its alright, posted too late.

So the 125 point limit is not updated Battle-Forged rules(as on page 62 of the core manual) but just for the given missions/scenarios?

technically speaking a point limit only exists if the mission states one exists, and you use the stated limit. My friend and I played one of the sector mechanicus exclusive missions the other day that said: "set a point limit, the attacker can take an additional 20 points than the defender." So we went with the elites 125 points and he brought 145.

The Commander Expansion is also with the Primaris Only Commanders for Space Marines ad absurdum...

Well, there is still Terminator Commanders to choose from - they're still old-school.

 AduroT wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Its alright, posted too late.

So the 125 point limit is not updated Battle-Forged rules(as on page 62 of the core manual) but just for the given missions/scenarios?

Pretty much. The Core book scenarios don’t mention point limits, as at the time everything was just the 100pt standard. Scenarios in Elites and Commanders will tell you how many points you can play with in them, and if you’re allowed to use a Commander.

One last note - the scenarios also reference the Battle-Forged Kill Team rules from pg. 62 of the Core Book, and then just tack on the difference in points. So, all the other usual rules for Battle-Forged apply as normal.

Having now got my hands on the Annual, I was wrong about the points cost for Battle Sisters. Bolters are in fact 0pts, meaning a standard Sister is only 9. Compared to something like Scions (also 9pts) that seems remarkably low.
Still lamenting the lack of any cool faction rules for Sisters

Finally got my copy of the book in the mail (it got lost by USPS) aaaaand I'm missing the first 16 pages of the book! Creating my own specialisms wasn't high on my priority list, but would have been nice to read through. No table of contents makes it pretty difficult to find stuff. Am I the only one who got a defect copy?

 Talarius wrote:
Finally got my copy of the book in the mail (it got lost by USPS) aaaaand I'm missing the first 16 pages of the book! Creating my own specialisms wasn't high on my priority list, but would have been nice to read through. No table of contents makes it pretty difficult to find stuff. Am I the only one who got a defect copy?

All the people i hang around got the book whole intact so maybe you were unlucky.

Ah well. Luck of the draw, I guess. I sent GW an email, so hopefully they'll replace it.

I guess it will only be conversions using enforcers as scions or marine explorers, but interesting:

SamusDrake wrote:


Speaking of which, what happened to the Kellermorph model? The most badass looking GSC model and they've done away with it! Absolutely disgraceful!

Goes up for preorder as a clampack on the 8th. Was only part of that gang box before.

zamerion wrote:
I guess it will only be conversions using enforcers as scions or marine explorers, but interesting:

It's Wade Pryce's force for the Arbites, and it sounds like the GSC are Peachy's!

They're Space Marines. Here's some pictures from his Twitter:

The "Arbitrators"(sniper rifles, shotguns, and boltguns) are counts-as Scouts, maul+shield and ram are "Dominators" and counts as Deathwatch Veterans(storm shield and frag cannons respectively), the fancy "Dominator Sergeant" is the Deathwatch Sergeant.

FWIW, 20 Daemonettes, including an Alluress, Icon and an Instrument, comes to exactly 150pts. There are no Daemon commanders and no options other than an Alluress, Icon and an Instrument.

It's pretty hard to get to 200pts of Astra Militarum, too, unless you go heavy on Scions/Ogryn. I have a Company Commander, Sergeant, Tempestor, 2 Scion Gunners, 3 Guard Gunners, a SW Guards Gunner and eleven 'mooks' for exactly 150pts.

Only Level 1 Commanders in Matched Play really doesn't help, and also means you can never take Marbo (who is Level 3) in a pick-up Matched Play game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

zamerion wrote:
I guess it will only be conversions using enforcers as scions or marine explorers, but interesting:

It's Wade Pryce's force for the Arbites, and it sounds like the GSC are Peachy's!

They're Space Marines. Here's some pictures from his Twitter:

Spoiler:

The "Arbitrators"(sniper rifles, shotguns, and boltguns) are counts-as Scouts, maul+shield and ram are "Dominators" and counts as Deathwatch Veterans(storm shield and frag cannons respectively), the fancy "Dominator Sergeant" is the Deathwatch Sergeant.

Pretty sure that's the 'gang' from Dark Uprising with head-swaps. Venators, or something.

He means that he's using the Space Marine & Death Watch codex books for the rules to represent the models.

 BrookM wrote:
He means that he's using the Space Marine & Death Watch codex books for the rules to represent the models.

Correct. They're playing Open/Narrative rather than comp it sounds like, which is how he has the dog and all the stuff mixed in together.

The names I posted are literally what the guy who converted those model labeled them as. He knows they're not Palantine Enforcers, which is why they have Marine Scout Shotguns instead of the 'standard civilian junk' that the Palantines have.

Look like this will be the Arbites team for today stream.

Funny. Our group was just discussing how it would be great if GW would release Kill Team rules for Necromunda gangs.

 BrookM wrote:
He means that he's using the Space Marine & Death Watch codex books for the rules to represent the models.

I had a brainfart and thought this was a Necromunda thread.