I haven't seen much discussion on these rules. What are people's feelings?
Seems like there are a lot of ways to increase AP, multiple ways for 3D6 drop 1 charges, no fallback strat, 4+++ vs overwatch trait, Ignore AP1 & 2 on an INFANTRY unit, no heavy and assault move penalties trait to name some.
The Psychic Awakening rules are an interesting mixed bag.
For starters, the build-your-own-hive-fleet traits are mostly worthless. Get a 6+ FNP, but only for Monsters, only if they stay still, only if they're not in melee, and only if it's turn 2 onwards? Enemies in melee with a monster suffer -1Ld? Monsters on their last bracket get +2A (at awful WS, naturally)? Who wrote these and thought they would be enticing army traits?
The -1AP and 4++ against Overwatch abilities are marginally more useful, but none of them come close to displacing Kraken (3D6-pick-highest Advance, fall back and charge in the same turn, and a stratagem to double Advance rolls) as the go-to for melee armies. A 4++ against Overwatch sounds great on paper, but if you take less damage on Overwatch at the cost of getting into melee a turn later, that's a bad trade. The new psychic ability for Kraken (pick an enemy unit, everything gets to re-roll charge distance against it) makes it even better for melee-oriented armies. I've seen some speculation about stacking traits and stratagems to get Hormagaunts with AP-3, but I'm skeptical that it will really be that great for 5pt T3/6+ models.
The new relics are okay, I guess. None of them particularly stand out, except maybe turning a Stranglethorn Cannon into Assault 6.
However, the Adaptive Physiology rules, and new Stratagems, are a big deal.
Adaptive Physiology in particular is huge for monsters (ESPECIALLY the oft-forgotten Hierodule, which with a 5++ and less harsh degradation will be more akin to a Knight as it should be), and provides some interesting traits that might be useful for bigger units of Troops. Some of the traits would also be great replacements for our Warlord Traits, which are mostly mediocre- if I have Old One Eye on the field, a boost of +1S, +1AP, and +1D is much more useful than any of the actual WTs.
And the Stratagems seem mostly geared towards providing new niches for previously-unused units. Toxicrenes preventing units from falling back, Warriors being able to reduce incoming Damage, and Maleceptors buffing nearby troops all provide new utility for these units. Coupled with the mild points reductions in CA, they might be really useful now.
The downside is that they all cost CP, so we're now even more CP-hungry than before. I expect to see a lot more Neurothropes and Ripper Swarms filling out cheap Battalions. The nice thing is that both of those units are actually useful (psychic support and objective-capping/backline harassment respectively), so it's not a huge detriment.
I'm still annoyed that we don't get any flat bonuses for an all-Tyranid army, which is what I was hoping Adaptive Physiology would be- none of them are as impactful as Doctrines or Acts of Faith, so I don't see why we have to sacrifice WTs or CP for them. But there is still a net improvement here, so I'm at least happy for that.
What are people's thoughts on the Hive Fleet specific psychic powers?
I was looking at Hydra's Death Shriek. For those that don't know, WC 5, 6" range to target a Hydra unit. Any Hydra model dying inflicts a Mortal Wound on a 6+ to enemy unit within 6". I suppose that's a way to turn those Termagants and Hormagaunts into suicide bombs, in keeping with Hydra's swarm them with numbers theme.
I don't know in general so many of the new Tyranid things are so finicky as if GW were deathly afraid to give a bonus to a xenos faction that was generally useful. So many things seem to require the sun and stars to perfectly align in order for a minor bonus.
My opinion is that it’s yet another space marine supplement and a pathetic nod to Tyranids to say “thanks for spending so much on Tyranids, we remember you but don’t actually like you”.
I can see why there's less excitement, GW keeps showing off this fantastic lord hero for the BA; whilst at the same time Tyranids got two reboxings of existing models with nothing new in them.
Which is kind of cruel because, honestly, Tyranids have been hoping for two new plastic kits for a long while now (a duel "vores" box and a duel "lictor/leaper" box)
Ok, how many of those pages AREN'T lore & pretty pics?
That's grasping at straws. Tyranids should have an equal amount of lore and pretty pics to BA. Instead they have a tiny amount of pages some of which is wasted on a name generator for a faction that hasn't got names for things.
Ok, how many of those pages AREN'T lore & pretty pics?
There are no lore pages included in this number.
bs. if there whwre 40 pages of pure blood angel rules that would mean the blood angels would have 50-60 actual pages in a book of 80-90 pages. which would mean the actual story events of the book would proably total less then 10 pages.
BrianDavion wrote: bs. if there whwre 40 pages of pure blood angel rules that would mean the blood angels would have 50-60 actual pages in a book of 80-90 pages. which would mean the actual story events of the book would proably total less then 10 pages.
I don't know why you'd call BS on something so easily verifiable.
17 pages of lore, 5 pages of missions, 38 pages of Blood Angels rules, 12 pages of Tyranid rules.
the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
looks like 8 pages of new content, ten if "the colours of death" turns out to be rules and not just a paint scheme show case. Blood angels definatly are the better off of the two armies highlighted here but once you factor in the stuff we already have thats just being reprinted so that BA players don't have to run out and buy codex space marines, it's a lot closer to partiy.
this of course assumes none of the old chaplains who are getting updated are getting anything beyond having acts of faith slapped onto the unit.
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
looks like 8 pages of new content, ten if "the colours of death" turns out to be rules and not just a paint scheme show case. Blood angels definatly are the better off of the two armies highlighted here but once you factor in the stuff we already have thats just being reprinted so that BA players don't have to run out and buy codex space marines, it's a lot closer to partiy.
this of course assumes none of the old chaplains who are getting updated are getting anything beyond having acts of faith slapped onto the unit.
Weird. So to me, it sounds like a whole bunch of whiny a babies only read a little bit without comprehending the actual situation, and they are now throwing dumb fits about a misconceived issue which could have been entirely a avoided if they weren’t so quick to ring the “cry like a baby” bell?
It sounds like both factions shown in the book got a pretty close amount of stuff (quantity, not quality), and should retire this line of rage?
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
looks like 8 pages of new content, ten if "the colours of death" turns out to be rules and not just a paint scheme show case. Blood angels definatly are the better off of the two armies highlighted here but once you factor in the stuff we already have thats just being reprinted so that BA players don't have to run out and buy codex space marines, it's a lot closer to partiy.
this of course assumes none of the old chaplains who are getting updated are getting anything beyond having acts of faith slapped onto the unit.
Weird. So to me, it sounds like a whole bunch of whiny a babies only read a little bit without comprehending the actual situation, and they are now throwing dumb fits about a misconceived issue which could have been entirely a avoided if they weren’t so quick to ring the “cry like a baby” bell?
It sounds like both factions shown in the book got a pretty close amount of stuff (quantity, not quality), and should retire this line of rage?
I'm not involved in this discussion, but I'd like to remind everyone to please remain polite, and not insult one another. Keep the toxicity to a minimum if you can.
Eonfuzz wrote: Close amount of stuff lmfao.
Where's the new Tyranid model lines at?
What all needs brought out of resin/metal besides lictors?
Imagine thinking xenos should only be brought out of resin, and no extra work required.
I'm talking about *new* model lines, you know, like the support marines have been getting for almost a year on end now.
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
looks like 8 pages of new content, ten if "the colours of death" turns out to be rules and not just a paint scheme show case. Blood angels definatly are the better off of the two armies highlighted here but once you factor in the stuff we already have thats just being reprinted so that BA players don't have to run out and buy codex space marines, it's a lot closer to partiy.
this of course assumes none of the old chaplains who are getting updated are getting anything beyond having acts of faith slapped onto the unit.
Weird. So to me, it sounds like a whole bunch of whiny a babies only read a little bit without comprehending the actual situation, and they are now throwing dumb fits about a misconceived issue which could have been entirely a avoided if they weren’t so quick to ring the “cry like a baby” bell?
It sounds like both factions shown in the book got a pretty close amount of stuff (quantity, not quality), and should retire this line of rage?
I'm not involved in this discussion, but I'd like to remind everyone to please remain polite, and not insult one another. Keep the toxicity to a minimum if you can.
I think it’s fair to say too many people are overreacting about this and they’ll continue to do so because they like to.
Both factions actually got close to the same amount of new stuff. One got more lore probably, but we should also think about how of the two forces here, one is never actually given any first person representation ever, and is only described from the viewpoints of others. There’s just too much whining because people like to do it.
Eonfuzz wrote: Close amount of stuff lmfao.
Where's the new Tyranid model lines at?
What all needs brought out of resin/metal besides lictors?
Imagine thinking xenos should only be brought out of resin, and no extra work required.
I'm talking about *new* model lines, you know, like the support marines have been getting for almost a year on end now.
Tbf the nid line is probably one of the best,otoh the unending stream of primaris marines get's annoying.
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
looks like 8 pages of new content, ten if "the colours of death" turns out to be rules and not just a paint scheme show case. Blood angels definatly are the better off of the two armies highlighted here but once you factor in the stuff we already have thats just being reprinted so that BA players don't have to run out and buy codex space marines, it's a lot closer to partiy.
this of course assumes none of the old chaplains who are getting updated are getting anything beyond having acts of faith slapped onto the unit.
Weird. So to me, it sounds like a whole bunch of whiny a babies only read a little bit without comprehending the actual situation, and they are now throwing dumb fits about a misconceived issue which could have been entirely a avoided if they weren’t so quick to ring the “cry like a baby” bell?
It sounds like both factions shown in the book got a pretty close amount of stuff (quantity, not quality), and should retire this line of rage?
I'm not involved in this discussion, but I'd like to remind everyone to please remain polite, and not insult one another. Keep the toxicity to a minimum if you can.
I think it’s fair to say too many people are overreacting about this and they’ll continue to do so because they like to.
Both factions actually got close to the same amount of new stuff. One got more lore probably, but we should also think about how of the two forces here, one is never actually given any first person representation ever, and is only described from the viewpoints of others. There’s just too much whining because people like to do it.
Throwing insults at people doesn't help convince people to think you're right, though. I'm not here to take sides (I don't play either faction).
Eonfuzz wrote: Close amount of stuff lmfao.
Where's the new Tyranid model lines at?
What all needs brought out of resin/metal besides lictors?
Imagine thinking xenos should only be brought out of resin, and no extra work required.
I'm talking about *new* model lines, you know, like the support marines have been getting for almost a year on end now.
Tell me what needs done. I don’t think I came across as sarcastic in that post. How old are the 5 oldest Tyranid kits with units in the 8th edition Tyranid codex, and tell me about their quality. Do they need updates? Would updated kits invalidate the current units of extra weapon options were added to the kit?
Eonfuzz wrote: Close amount of stuff lmfao.
Where's the new Tyranid model lines at?
What more could you want? Space Marines have been suffering for decades. We still don’t have primaris bikers, primaris land speeders, primaris Psykers on stardrakes or any primaris squads with minor psychic powers (which I am going to trademark the name sequitors).
Once all that stuff is out, plus whatever else they want to add such as a drop pod for primaris or a stormraven capable of dropping a repulsor, then you can see one finecast model that nobody plays turned into plastic.
Ps. That model will only be part of a stand-alone boxed game containing Tyranids against Dark Angels who by then would be long overdue a new character and primaris ravenwing. If will not be available for direct sale until 3 years later.
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
looks like 8 pages of new content, ten if "the colours of death" turns out to be rules and not just a paint scheme show case. Blood angels definatly are the better off of the two armies highlighted here but once you factor in the stuff we already have thats just being reprinted so that BA players don't have to run out and buy codex space marines, it's a lot closer to partiy.
this of course assumes none of the old chaplains who are getting updated are getting anything beyond having acts of faith slapped onto the unit.
Weird. So to me, it sounds like a whole bunch of whiny a babies only read a little bit without comprehending the actual situation, and they are now throwing dumb fits about a misconceived issue which could have been entirely a avoided if they weren’t so quick to ring the “cry like a baby” bell?
It sounds like both factions shown in the book got a pretty close amount of stuff (quantity, not quality), and should retire this line of rage?
I'm not involved in this discussion, but I'd like to remind everyone to please remain polite, and not insult one another. Keep the toxicity to a minimum if you can.
I think it’s fair to say too many people are overreacting about this and they’ll continue to do so because they like to.
Both factions actually got close to the same amount of new stuff. One got more lore probably, but we should also think about how of the two forces here, one is never actually given any first person representation ever, and is only described from the viewpoints of others. There’s just too much whining because people like to do it.
Throwing insults at people doesn't help convince people to think you're right, though. I'm not here to take sides (I don't play either faction).
I don’t play either faction, either. However, there is quite the quantity of people that will whine on this site, even if the reason come out to be false with only an iota of comprehension. I’m just saying it’s a problem. I haven’t Calle anyone in particular out. If they feel this open-ended line of discussion effects them, they should at least wonder why.
Eonfuzz wrote: Close amount of stuff lmfao.
Where's the new Tyranid model lines at?
What more could you want? Space Marines have been suffering for decades. We still don’t have primaris bikers, primaris land speeders, primaris Psykers on stardrakes or any primaris squads with minor psychic powers (which I am going to trademark the name sequitors).
Once all that stuff is out, plus whatever else they want to add such as a drop pod for primaris or a stormraven capable of dropping a repulsor, then you can see one finecast model that nobody plays turned into plastic.
Ps. That model will only be part of a stand-alone boxed game containing Tyranids against Dark Angels who by then would be long overdue a new character and primaris ravenwing. If will not be available for direct sale until 3 years later.
You're right, sorry.
We need Primaris Chaos space marines immediately after that before we can start touching xenos
Tell me what needs done. I don’t think I came across as sarcastic in that post. How old are the 5 oldest Tyranid kits with units in the 8th edition Tyranid codex, and tell me about their quality. Do they need updates? Would updated kits invalidate the current units of extra weapon options were added to the kit?
Once Primaris Chaos lines are done, we should see some new lore to come out for armies that are essentially model-squatted and some new models that come with that too.
Honestly, is it too high of an expectation to think that Xenos armies should get *some* new content throughout all of 8th? And don't give me "The CryPTek On ScArAbS" is new content line of reasoning
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
looks like 8 pages of new content, ten if "the colours of death" turns out to be rules and not just a paint scheme show case. Blood angels definatly are the better off of the two armies highlighted here but once you factor in the stuff we already have thats just being reprinted so that BA players don't have to run out and buy codex space marines, it's a lot closer to partiy.
this of course assumes none of the old chaplains who are getting updated are getting anything beyond having acts of faith slapped onto the unit.
Weird. So to me, it sounds like a whole bunch of whiny a babies only read a little bit without comprehending the actual situation, and they are now throwing dumb fits about a misconceived issue which could have been entirely a avoided if they weren’t so quick to ring the “cry like a baby” bell?
It sounds like both factions shown in the book got a pretty close amount of stuff (quantity, not quality), and should retire this line of rage?
I'm not involved in this discussion, but I'd like to remind everyone to please remain polite, and not insult one another. Keep the toxicity to a minimum if you can.
I think it’s fair to say too many people are overreacting about this and they’ll continue to do so because they like to.
Both factions actually got close to the same amount of new stuff. One got more lore probably, but we should also think about how of the two forces here, one is never actually given any first person representation ever, and is only described from the viewpoints of others. There’s just too much whining because people like to do it.
I get being frustrated your faction doesn't get the level of support of other factions but when you start deliberatly misrepresenting facts to push your narrative then it's a problem.
I get being frustrated your faction doesn't get the level of support of other factions but when you start deliberatly misrepresenting facts to push your narrative then it's a problem.
What facts were being misrepresented? Or are you misrepresenting facts now pog
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
If we subtract the datasheets entirely, then you're left with about 24 pages of just BA/FT/etc content. Compared to 12 pages for Tyranids.
What's with the belligerence?
Apple Peel wrote: Tell me what needs done. I don’t think I came across as sarcastic in that post. How old are the 5 oldest Tyranid kits with units in the 8th edition Tyranid codex, and tell me about their quality. Do they need updates? Would updated kits invalidate the current units of extra weapon options were added to the kit?
-Tyranid Gaunts are from 2001. The split-head design means the front of the face is completely flat, they're all very statically posed, and the mold lines are awful. The straight tails and general lack of variety make them all look very 'same-y' (maybe thematically fitting, but not very aesthetically pleasing- consider the WHFB Chaos Warriors versus the new ones), and Hormagaunts in particular have a very odd posture that doesn't make it clear how they 'actually' walk/run. 3D renders like this show just how much of a difference there is between the current sculpts and what they could be.
-Current Genestealers are from 2005/2006. They have absolutely atrocious mold lines and some bizarre leg posture (knees splayed way out). The Space Hulk and Deathwatch: Overkill Genestealers are so much better, but have never been sold separately.
-Biovores and Lictors are also from 2005/2006, and both suffer greatly for being Finecast. They're fragile and annoying to build. Pyrovores came out a bit later (I want to say 2009?), but could be easily lumped into a Biovore kit.
-Warriors were repackaged in 2012 with some minor tweaks (primarily to the heavy weapons and rending claws) and addition of some new parts (boneswords, lash whips, and Prime parts), but are fundamentally the same sculpts from 2001. While I think they've aged pretty well, I'd love to see a newer kit with crisper detail and more dynamic posing- the tails in particular stand out as static.
-Ripper Swarms are from 2001, and are packaged oddly. They come with other boxed sets, one base at a time, so it's hard to acquire them in any decent quantity. It'd be nice to just be able to buy a box of Ripper Swarms.
-As far as new things: Tyranids have never had a plastic LoW, and I'd love a Knight equivalent that wasn't Forge World. Shrikes were in the Index, but didn't make the Codex jump. A new Warriors box could include Shrikes as well to bring them back. I'd like to see more mid-sized Tyranids akin to the Warrior, Tyrant Guard, and Ravener, or perhaps another Gaunt variant, possibly resurrecting the Spike Rifle (a longer-ranged weapon that Termagants had back in 2nd). Our last new model was in 2014; just throw us a bone.
Tyranids are on the whole in a good place, but there are indeed some areas where they can be improved upon. Catbarf has summarised most of the good ones, leaving out that Lictors and Deathleaper and the Biovore and Pyrovore sets are all older materials that could do with an update. Everyone is expecting 3 in a boxed set with duel builds for both the pairs just like we have for the hiveguard and the zoanthrope/venomthrope sets.
The only other model in dire need of a material update is the Red Terror who, in todays' armies, doesn't really live up to his name when you've got Trygons and Mawlocks and more on the table.
Tyranids otherwise have a very full roster of options, esp when you consider that many units can vary between full close combat to full artillery and everything inbetween with weapon changes. Adding in a Lord of War model is about the only real gap from the GW line-up. The rest is just replacements.
Also I'm fairly convinced that besides the new tentacle heads and the extra carapace and scything talon additions the actual sculpt of the Genestealers hasn't changed since they first game out. They are a very powerful classic design but very dated. Considering they fit into the cult and to tyranids it was surprising GW didn't throw a bone out and update them.
Gaunts are well covered, the Termagaunt getting a new spike rifle and a non-split head would be great to see from a revised kit.
Overall Tyranids are in a solid spot, they just need some updates. A handful of releases would put them right at the forefront alongside Sisters of Battle.
If we subtract the datasheets entirely, then you're left with about 24 pages of just BA/FT/etc content. Compared to 12 pages for Tyranids.
also subtract the litanies (it's almost all reprint except for a single BA specific one) the obscuruous disiple, which is a direct port from codex space marines (and shadow spear before it) the vanguard warlord traits, which is yet again a direct port from shadowspear. (CSM players BTW should rightfully be annoyed GW didn't port their warlord traits from shadow spear in F&F. that's a legitimate complaint, there's no where other then shadow spear to get that stuff)
and the first 5 or so pages which is mostly fluff describing how the new vanguard stuff fits into blood angels.
If we subtract the datasheets entirely, then you're left with about 24 pages of just BA/FT/etc content. Compared to 12 pages for Tyranids.
also subtract the litanies (it's almost all reprint except for a single BA specific one) the obscuruous disiple, which is a direct port from codex space marines (and shadow spear before it) the vanguard warlord traits, which is yet again a direct port from shadowspear. (CSM players BTW should rightfully be annoyed GW didn't port their warlord traits from shadow spear in F&F. that's a legitimate complaint, there's no where other then shadow spear to get that stuff)
and the first 5 or so pages which is mostly fluff describing how the new vanguard stuff fits into blood angels.
Should Tyranids also subtract all that stuff too? Or do you just want to do the same for Blood Angels to help misrepresent the facts
If we subtract the datasheets entirely, then you're left with about 24 pages of just BA/FT/etc content. Compared to 12 pages for Tyranids.
also subtract the litanies (it's almost all reprint except for a single BA specific one) the obscuruous disiple, which is a direct port from codex space marines (and shadow spear before it) the vanguard warlord traits, which is yet again a direct port from shadowspear. (CSM players BTW should rightfully be annoyed GW didn't port their warlord traits from shadow spear in F&F. that's a legitimate complaint, there's no where other then shadow spear to get that stuff)
and the first 5 or so pages which is mostly fluff describing how the new vanguard stuff fits into blood angels.
Should Tyranids also subtract all that stuff too? Or do you just want to do the same for Blood Angels to help misrepresent the facts
Where's the copied datasheets for Tyranids to subtract? Like, you haven't even understood the argument being made. Go back, reread and come back when you have.
Would it make the book more fair if GW added in 15 pages of copy-pasted datasheets from Codex: Tyranids?
If we subtract the datasheets entirely, then you're left with about 24 pages of just BA/FT/etc content. Compared to 12 pages for Tyranids.
also subtract the litanies (it's almost all reprint except for a single BA specific one) the obscuruous disiple, which is a direct port from codex space marines (and shadow spear before it) the vanguard warlord traits, which is yet again a direct port from shadowspear. (CSM players BTW should rightfully be annoyed GW didn't port their warlord traits from shadow spear in F&F. that's a legitimate complaint, there's no where other then shadow spear to get that stuff)
and the first 5 or so pages which is mostly fluff describing how the new vanguard stuff fits into blood angels.
Should Tyranids also subtract all that stuff too? Or do you just want to do the same for Blood Angels to help misrepresent the facts
yes Tyranids are welcome to exclude from the argument any rules that they've had FAQed to them for the past 6 months.
Dysartes wrote: I'm somewhat curious to see what a Tyranid Name Generator actually covers.
It is probably the same one that is the Kill Team core rulebook are pretty close to the same. The names aren't what the Tyranids call themselves but more like what the Imperium would call them. A quick example from my book is "The Looming" plus "Fang" creating The Looming Fang Brood.
BA and nids received almost the same amount of content from this book. Maybe one or two pages more for BA due to the 2 new datasheets. All the other stuff is just a reprint.
BA received more, sure, but the difference is small enough to be acceptable.
Spoletta wrote: Let's try to be honest when it is time to be so.
BA and nids received almost the same amount of content from this book. Maybe one or two pages more for BA due to the 2 new datasheets. All the other stuff is just a reprint.
BA received more, sure, but the difference is small enough to be acceptable.
yeah but for certain parties that doesn't fit their "GW FAVORS MARINES" narrative. so they're not intreasted in honesty
Spoletta wrote: Let's try to be honest when it is time to be so.
BA and nids received almost the same amount of content from this book. Maybe one or two pages more for BA due to the 2 new datasheets. All the other stuff is just a reprint.
BA received more, sure, but the difference is small enough to be acceptable.
yeah but for certain parties that doesn't fit their "GW FAVORS MARINES" narrative. so they're not intreasted in honesty
Name another faction that recently received a year of new updates, model lines and totally obvious codex bumps
Spoletta wrote: Let's try to be honest when it is time to be so.
BA and nids received almost the same amount of content from this book. Maybe one or two pages more for BA due to the 2 new datasheets. All the other stuff is just a reprint.
BA received more, sure, but the difference is small enough to be acceptable.
yeah but for certain parties that doesn't fit their "GW FAVORS MARINES" narrative. so they're not intreasted in honesty
I'm still annoyed that we don't get any flat bonuses for an all-Tyranid army, which is what I was hoping Adaptive Physiology would be- none of them are as impactful as Doctrines or Acts of Faith, so I don't see why we have to sacrifice WTs or CP for them. But there is still a net improvement here, so I'm at least happy for that.
Act is not sisters anti soup rule. You can soup all you wish and act of faith is there
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: Let's try to be honest when it is time to be so.
BA and nids received almost the same amount of content from this book. Maybe one or two pages more for BA due to the 2 new datasheets. All the other stuff is just a reprint.
BA received more, sure, but the difference is small enough to be acceptable.
Amount maybe, whatabout the one that actually matters aka quality? One good page is worth more than 1000 bad ones
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
looks like 8 pages of new content, ten if "the colours of death" turns out to be rules and not just a paint scheme show case. Blood angels definatly are the better off of the two armies highlighted here but once you factor in the stuff we already have thats just being reprinted so that BA players don't have to run out and buy codex space marines, it's a lot closer to partiy.
this of course assumes none of the old chaplains who are getting updated are getting anything beyond having acts of faith slapped onto the unit.
How'd you get only 8 pages? There's a contents page in this very thread lol. Even if we use your and Apple Peel's interesting metric of; 'how many pages not including all this other new stuff they got' they still got more.
Count them with me;
Inheritors of rage - 1
Abilities - 2
Sons of Sanguinius - 3
Vanguard Warlord Traits - 4
Stratagems - 7
Obscuration Discipline - 8
Litanies of Battle - 9
Relics of Baal - 10
Special Issue Wargear - 11
Flesh Tearers - 13
Points - 16
16 pages of stuff you're happy to call 'new' for Blood Angels, not including the name generator.
BrianDavion wrote: the updated chaplain datasheets, and blood angels phobos stuff is pretty much "whtie dwarf yannari rules in PA1" level to be fair. but yeah I'd forgotten that chaplains would need their sheets updated
So we take out things that were just directly ported into the book like Phobos units and data sheet updates (not counting new psychic powers of litanies), how many Blood Angels pages are there? Strictly new Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers content.
looks like 8 pages of new content, ten if "the colours of death" turns out to be rules and not just a paint scheme show case. Blood angels definatly are the better off of the two armies highlighted here but once you factor in the stuff we already have thats just being reprinted so that BA players don't have to run out and buy codex space marines, it's a lot closer to partiy.
this of course assumes none of the old chaplains who are getting updated are getting anything beyond having acts of faith slapped onto the unit.
Weird. So to me, it sounds like a whole bunch of whiny a babies only read a little bit without comprehending the actual situation, and they are now throwing dumb fits about a misconceived issue which could have been entirely a avoided if they weren’t so quick to ring the “cry like a baby” bell?
It sounds like both factions shown in the book got a pretty close amount of stuff (quantity, not quality), and should retire this line of rage?
BA have 10 pages, from page 52 to page 62, just read the table of contents (flash tearers and points are not BA content). Minus litanies and powers which are reprints, you have 9 pages.
To this you add 2 new datasheets for about 10 pages of content.
Tyranids have from 70 to 78, 9 pages of all new stuff.
Is it really necessary to get angry over 1 page of difference?
Spoletta wrote: BA have 10 pages, from page 52 to page 62, just read the table of contents (flash tearers and points are not BA content). Minus litanies and powers which are reprints, you have 9 pages.
To this you add 2 new datasheets for about 10 pages of content.
Tyranids have from 70 to 78, 9 pages of all new stuff.
Is it really necessary to get angry over 1 page of difference?
No, but again there're some weird disconnects between Marine and Eldar custom traits and the Nid one.
Example:
Marines - Master Artisan = Re-roll a single hit roll and wound roll per unit in shooting, melee and overwatch.
Eldar - Expert Crafters = Re-roll a single hit roll and wound roll per unit in shooting, melee and overwatch.
Nids - Synaptic Augment = Re-roll a single hit roll (but not wound roll) per unit in shooting (but not melee) and overwatch IF the unit is near a Synapse creature
Spoletta wrote: BA have 10 pages, from page 52 to page 62, just read the table of contents (flash tearers and points are not BA content). Minus litanies and powers which are reprints, you have 9 pages.
To this you add 2 new datasheets for about 10 pages of content.
Tyranids have from 70 to 78, 9 pages of all new stuff.
Is it really necessary to get angry over 1 page of difference?
tneva82 wrote:Act is not sisters anti soup rule. You can soup all you wish and act of faith is there
Sorry, I meant Sacred Rites.
Spoletta wrote:Nid stuff in PA3 is top quality (even if sometimes broken, like the new exocrines), so no problems there.
The build-your-own-hive-fleet system is hot garbage. Seriously, I don't know who thought that having monsters inflict a -1Ld debuff within 3", or getting a 6+ invuln but only on monsters and only if you don't move and only if you're not in melee and only if it's turn 2+, would be worth an army trait. None of them come close to dethroning Kraken.
As well, they don't get a 'parent' hive fleet, so that means the new fleet-specific psychic powers are off-limits. Granted, most of the psychic powers are of limited utility. A couple seem worthwhile.
The relics are so-so. The one for psykers is a must-take, everything else is meh.
Overall it's really just the adaptive physiology and the new stratagems that are must-haves, but they cost CP, so in an army already reliant on CP that's going to be tough. It's a nice upgrade, but not what I would consider 'top quality' when we were hoping for a flat buff to put us on even footing with the other factions.
It's truly bizarre, like for the marines rules so far they have pretty consistently good rules, but when it comes to xenos, god forbid they have any mix-and-match traits that come close to marines as far as being competitive goes. It's like they were thrown in as an afterthought because they HAVE to do something for them out of obligation rather than any desire to give them some sort of bone or update. It's more or less reinforcing the NPC feel of a lot of xenos races when compared to the golden MC role of marines right now.
Grimskul wrote: It's truly bizarre, like for the marines rules so far they have pretty consistently good rules, but when it comes to xenos, god forbid they have any mix-and-match traits that come close to marines as far as being competitive goes. It's like they were thrown in as an afterthought because they HAVE to do something for them out of obligation rather than any desire to give them some sort of bone or update. It's more or less reinforcing the NPC feel of a lot of xenos races when compared to the golden MC role of marines right now.
he now, the aeldari ones weren't that bad.
But it's eldar and one thing that eldar had was consistent rules support. (GW just shifted internally to force people to buy another part of aspects and co kg. imo but he.)
If people really think that the eldar one was good and the tyranid one was bad, we must be playing different games.
I'm extremely happy with my bugs and will restart using them in my highly competitive marine meta without issues. I have no reason to fight with people who only see the negative side of everything.
I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.
Spoletta wrote: Lol i give up, there is no way to reason here.
If people really think that the eldar one was good and the tyranid one was bad, we must be playing different games.
I'm extremely happy with my bugs and will restart using them in my highly competitive marine meta without issues. I have no reason to fight with people who only see the negative side of everything.
The difference is the eldar are already a strong army. Tyranids have fallen to the greater depths of garbage. They also got some of the worst CA support in the new feild manual. Gaunts still 4 points with a 6+ save. A hormagaunt is 5 points...compare that to a 7 point naked harlequin. (so much for a comprehensive revamp of the points in this game. Nids have been royally screwed getting the fewest point drops. While the rules support in this book about on par with the new stuff that eldar got in terms of volume of content. Nids got 0 viable competitive builds with them. Just a few stratagems and (basically warlord traits) adaptations which can make a few units better. Nids were already on the weaker sides of army traits which is a big reason why the army sucks so bad right now. If they really wanted to help the army you should be able to pick one of these new traits to take in addition yo your home fleet or take 3 of the custom traits.
Meanwhile eldar get in their custom traits (literally jorm but better) always counts in cover and they get to pick an additional trait with it. Tons of ways to reroll ones which they didn't even need (NIDS WOULD LOVE THIS). Ways to boost their basic weapons to the max.
tneva82 wrote:Act is not sisters anti soup rule. You can soup all you wish and act of faith is there
Sorry, I meant Sacred Rites.
Spoletta wrote:Nid stuff in PA3 is top quality (even if sometimes broken, like the new exocrines), so no problems there.
The build-your-own-hive-fleet system is hot garbage. Seriously, I don't know who thought that having monsters inflict a -1Ld debuff within 3", or getting a 6+ invuln but only on monsters and only if you don't move and only if you're not in melee and only if it's turn 2+, would be worth an army trait. None of them come close to dethroning Kraken.
As well, they don't get a 'parent' hive fleet, so that means the new fleet-specific psychic powers are off-limits. Granted, most of the psychic powers are of limited utility. A couple seem worthwhile.
The relics are so-so. The one for psykers is a must-take, everything else is meh.
Overall it's really just the adaptive physiology and the new stratagems that are must-haves, but they cost CP, so in an army already reliant on CP that's going to be tough. It's a nice upgrade, but not what I would consider 'top quality' when we were hoping for a flat buff to put us on even footing with the other factions.
Indeed. We got some new must take relics. Plus we gotta spend CP at the start of the game and give up a warlord trait to make 2 units stronger. Overall the end result is the army is getting slightly better. I'm probably going to remain mono levi but might be including a patrol of kronos just for an actually usable exocrine.
On Tyranids, I think the weakness here is that this was an opportunity to make Nidzilla a viable approach and imo at least, it still isn't really - although I may be wrong. (To some extent ditto for those fantasising about hordes of gaunts swarming across the table.)
My weird fantasy of big warrior blobs serving as troops choices might be a bit more viable given the points reduction in CA.
But as I see it you are going to keep on taking the usual suspects and this boosts them slightly. Which is nice.
Yarium wrote: I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.
In this thread, we have Spoletta calling Exocrines broken and a 5% increase on efficacy incredible on a faction with a 30% win rate. I honestly think we Nids players bring it on ourselves at this point. Yes, we're way better than we've been in like 5 years. BUT we're still very suboptimal to other factions, let alone Space Marines. Why can't we ask for more buffs than what we got? Let's see how Nids look in 3 months. Somehow, I doubt that PA and the points drops from CA (which really do *nothing* for us outside of the Exocrine) tip us over the top. But in case I'm wrong, you guys screencap this post and make sure to rub my face in it, because I'll own it (and I'd ***love*** to be wrong, I want to see Nids as a force to be reckoned with again).
Tyel wrote: A naked Harlequin is going to be 11 points.
On Tyranids, I think the weakness here is that this was an opportunity to make Nidzilla a viable approach and imo at least, it still isn't really - although I may be wrong. (To some extent ditto for those fantasising about hordes of gaunts swarming across the table.)
My weird fantasy of big warrior blobs serving as troops choices might be a bit more viable given the points reduction in CA.
But as I see it you are going to keep on taking the usual suspects and this boosts them slightly. Which is nice.
A naked harliquen is 7 points. You can give it a CC weapon for free - why would they do that? Well it's way better than a freaking hormagant that is why. 2 point warrior drop is nice but im usually taking 9 warrior. This saves me...18 points...Holy crap. I can get a whole 4 termagants for that price. That will certainly help me beat space marine armies. Harliquens in a 2000 point lists which are quite superior to nids got about 250 point savings accross the board. For my nids it's looking like about 40.
catbarf wrote: The Psychic Awakening rules are an interesting mixed bag.
For starters, the build-your-own-hive-fleet traits are mostly worthless. Get a 6+ FNP, but only for Monsters, only if they stay still, only if they're not in melee, and only if it's turn 2 onwards? Enemies in melee with a monster suffer -1Ld? Monsters on their last bracket get +2A (at awful WS, naturally)? Who wrote these and thought they would be enticing army traits?
The -1AP and 4++ against Overwatch abilities are marginally more useful, but none of them come close to displacing Kraken (3D6-pick-highest Advance, fall back and charge in the same turn, and a stratagem to double Advance rolls) as the go-to for melee armies. A 4++ against Overwatch sounds great on paper, but if you take less damage on Overwatch at the cost of getting into melee a turn later, that's a bad trade. The new psychic ability for Kraken (pick an enemy unit, everything gets to re-roll charge distance against it) makes it even better for melee-oriented armies. I've seen some speculation about stacking traits and stratagems to get Hormagaunts with AP-3, but I'm skeptical that it will really be that great for 5pt T3/6+ models.
The new relics are okay, I guess. None of them particularly stand out, except maybe turning a Stranglethorn Cannon into Assault 6.
However, the Adaptive Physiology rules, and new Stratagems, are a big deal.
Adaptive Physiology in particular is huge for monsters (ESPECIALLY the oft-forgotten Hierodule, which with a 5++ and less harsh degradation will be more akin to a Knight as it should be), and provides some interesting traits that might be useful for bigger units of Troops. Some of the traits would also be great replacements for our Warlord Traits, which are mostly mediocre- if I have Old One Eye on the field, a boost of +1S, +1AP, and +1D is much more useful than any of the actual WTs.
And the Stratagems seem mostly geared towards providing new niches for previously-unused units. Toxicrenes preventing units from falling back, Warriors being able to reduce incoming Damage, and Maleceptors buffing nearby troops all provide new utility for these units. Coupled with the mild points reductions in CA, they might be really useful now.
The downside is that they all cost CP, so we're now even more CP-hungry than before. I expect to see a lot more Neurothropes and Ripper Swarms filling out cheap Battalions. The nice thing is that both of those units are actually useful (psychic support and objective-capping/backline harassment respectively), so it's not a huge detriment.
I'm still annoyed that we don't get any flat bonuses for an all-Tyranid army, which is what I was hoping Adaptive Physiology would be- none of them are as impactful as Doctrines or Acts of Faith, so I don't see why we have to sacrifice WTs or CP for them. But there is still a net improvement here, so I'm at least happy for that.
Are they still afraid of letting Carnifexes and the like hit on something better than a 4+ in CC?
Grimskul wrote: It's truly bizarre, like for the marines rules so far they have pretty consistently good rules, but when it comes to xenos, god forbid they have any mix-and-match traits that come close to marines as far as being competitive goes. It's like they were thrown in as an afterthought because they HAVE to do something for them out of obligation rather than any desire to give them some sort of bone or update. It's more or less reinforcing the NPC feel of a lot of xenos races when compared to the golden MC role of marines right now.
he now, the aeldari ones weren't that bad.
But it's eldar and one thing that eldar had was consistent rules support. (GW just shifted internally to force people to buy another part of aspects and co kg. imo but he.)
Also god forbid Chaos gets build your own traits.
Eldar ones were better in comparison to nids, but the only ones that are really worth looking at are expert crafters, masters of concealment, and children of prophecy. Maaaaybe hail of doom. Everything else is more or less beaten by the ones in the main codex, which isn't saying much. I'd say the best part is more that Aspects got more flavour and warlocks got a useful discipline to replace their smite. But again, the big issue is that they also didn't really get a "doctrine" or mono-faction buff that put's them in some sort of parity with marines. Nids thankfully did, but unfortunately it still comes at the cost of WL traits (unlike marines) and the majority of their hive fleet traits are a write off. So either way you can see there's a distinct lack of either investment or energy when it comes to anything outside of marines.
Yarium wrote: I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.
In this thread, we have Spoletta calling Exocrines broken and a 5% increase on efficacy incredible on a faction with a 30% win rate. I honestly think we Nids players bring it on ourselves at this point. Yes, we're way better than we've been in like 5 years. BUT we're still very suboptimal to other factions, let alone Space Marines. Why can't we ask for more buffs than what we got? Let's see how Nids look in 3 months. Somehow, I doubt that PA and the points drops from CA (which really do *nothing* for us outside of the Exocrine) tip us over the top. But in case I'm wrong, you guys screencap this post and make sure to rub my face in it, because I'll own it (and I'd ***love*** to be wrong, I want to see Nids as a force to be reckoned with again).
If the new exocrine was a marine model all the forum would be bashing GW for screwing another edition, but since it is not marine then it is fine...
On this forum we have at least as many marine apologists as xeno fangirls.
Yarium wrote: I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.
In this thread, we have Spoletta calling Exocrines broken and a 5% increase on efficacy incredible on a faction with a 30% win rate. I honestly think we Nids players bring it on ourselves at this point. Yes, we're way better than we've been in like 5 years. BUT we're still very suboptimal to other factions, let alone Space Marines. Why can't we ask for more buffs than what we got? Let's see how Nids look in 3 months. Somehow, I doubt that PA and the points drops from CA (which really do *nothing* for us outside of the Exocrine) tip us over the top. But in case I'm wrong, you guys screencap this post and make sure to rub my face in it, because I'll own it (and I'd ***love*** to be wrong, I want to see Nids as a force to be reckoned with again).
If the new exocrine was a marine model all the forum would be bashing GW for screwing another edition, but since it is not marine then it is fine...
On this forum we have at least as many marine apologists as xeno fangirls.
Yarium wrote: I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.
Well...for the low, low price of $40...or memorization (*cough* piracy *cough*)...
Togusa wrote: How is it new? What did they do to it?
It receives a minor points reduction, gets a 1CP stratagem to count as being stationary even if it moved, and Kronos gets a psychic power which allows a unit to score an extra hit on a 6. The Exocrine has an innate ability to hit at +1 and shoot twice if stationary, so these can all stack together to let the Exocrine move, then shoot twice, hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s (if Kronos) with extra hits on 5+.
This averages 14 hits with a S7, AP-3, D2 weapon for the cost of a psychic power and 1CP. Throw on one of the adaptive biology traits, and anything it hurts is going to suffer another D3 mortal wounds.
I certainly won't dispute that it's powerful, but personally I don't want my army composition to be driven by Kronos Exocrines, either.
Yarium wrote: I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.
Well...for the low, low price of $40...or memorization (*cough* piracy *cough*)...
It's great that Yarium is cleaning up against Ultramarines with Nids. But there's a hell of a lot more anecdata that goes the other way. And you guys can cheerlead Exocrines all you want. They're a good Nid, they showed up in our last tourney-appearing list. And maybe if you shoehorned them into Marines and they got the special rules ecosystem that Marines get, they'd be really good. But as part of the Nids codex, they aren't lighting up the world. That's it, dispute it with your anecdotes but they're anecdotes (sorry Daed, basically none of this was directed at your post lol)
Spoletta wrote: Lol i give up, there is no way to reason here.
If people really think that the eldar one was good and the tyranid one was bad, we must be playing different games.
I'm extremely happy with my bugs and will restart using them in my highly competitive marine meta without issues. I have no reason to fight with people who only see the negative side of everything.
Okay then, show the people here they're wrong and talk about all these super competitive things Tyranids got. I could use a laugh this morning.
PA3 gives Tyranids more options. It is not going to make Tyranids "competitive", if you already shelved your nids this is not going to undo that.
But if you already were playing with nids, either because you like the challenge of being the underdog in tournaments or because your meta is casual, PA3 helps.
Spoletta wrote: Lol i give up, there is no way to reason here.
If people really think that the eldar one was good and the tyranid one was bad, we must be playing different games.
I'm extremely happy with my bugs and will restart using them in my highly competitive marine meta without issues. I have no reason to fight with people who only see the negative side of everything.
Okay then, show the people here they're wrong and talk about all these super competitive things Tyranids got. I could use a laugh this morning.
Well, that's the problem. There is no way to really separate arguments mentally from 'marine meta' and what we might be perceiving things as if we weren't in that state.
It feels like Nids got a lot of ways to sneak in more AP, which was needed as well as keying into buffs for under-used units. Yes, some it will cost CP. Yes, there is a lot of really silly and unusable traits, but then what marines are using reroll 1s to hit with bolt weapons, -1 LD w/i 3", no more than 1 model flees from morale, no penalty for assault weapons, 1s and 2s to wound always fail, or +1 leadership?
I certainly don't feel good having wanted to start Tyranids the pst few months and buying a bunch of stuff (that's since remained unassembled). The army went from being pretty decent with a ton of flexibility to build what you want (the reason I went for them) to like worst army in the game overnight thanks to a meta which doesn't favour them at all.
And it's no surprise that GW favors Imperium/Marines above everyone else. For decades now the real story of 40k hasn't been mankind beset by its foes on the brink of collapse but the triumph of the good and noble Imperium against the barbarians that threaten it. I chalk it up to the fact most of the 40k designers seem to all be imperium/marine fanboys. You rarely hear them talk about how they are excited about Xenos armies, it's almost always them gushing over how kewl the new marine stuff is for their marine armies. So why would they care about xenos when they only give a token interest for the sake of gameplay to them, and otherwise it's all about what new imperium thing can be added?
Spoletta wrote: Lol i give up, there is no way to reason here.
If people really think that the eldar one was good and the tyranid one was bad, we must be playing different games.
I'm extremely happy with my bugs and will restart using them in my highly competitive marine meta without issues. I have no reason to fight with people who only see the negative side of everything.
Okay then, show the people here they're wrong and talk about all these super competitive things Tyranids got. I could use a laugh this morning.
Well, that's the problem. There is no way to really separate arguments mentally from 'marine meta' and what we might be perceiving things as if we weren't in that state.
It feels like Nids got a lot of ways to sneak in more AP, which was needed as well as keying into buffs for under-used units. Yes, some it will cost CP. Yes, there is a lot of really silly and unusable traits, but then what marines are using reroll 1s to hit with bolt weapons, -1 LD w/i 3", no more than 1 model flees from morale, no penalty for assault weapons, 1s and 2s to wound always fail, or +1 leadership?
Yeah the +1LD and Assault Weapon and -1LD ones are garbage but at least the other ones have uses, like 2s fail to wound and reroll 1s for Bolt Weapons in an Intercessor spam list, for example. That doesn't even count Strats and Relics either.
Yeah the +1LD and Assault Weapon and -1LD ones are garbage but at least the other ones have uses, like 2s fail to wound and reroll 1s for Bolt Weapons in an Intercessor spam list, for example. That doesn't even count Strats and Relics either.
Yea, you'll get no argument from me that marines have it better. There are some "good" ones that won't see use either, because other options are really good.
Still, -2 AP Hormagaunts that don't require CP or supporting characters to function (other than Synapse) or -1 to be hit in Melee / heal 1 / and heal up to 3 in Melee Flyrants sound at least interesting (if I heard them properly). Kraken is cool, but I don't know what a couple extra inches on the advance gets you when you're going to Onslaught them into combat anyway.
With mortars and PGCs taking a slap in the face running hordes seems a little less daunting - again, barring marines.
Jormungandr spell has some interesting potential with devgant bombs, shock guard or large groups of warriors/raveners. .
Also interested to hear about Jormangundr tidbits.
1 CP stratagem for Primes and Warriors to take -1D during shooting phase.
Psychic stuff --
Behemoth - VotLW in melee
Kraken - charges against target unit can be rerolled
Levi - synapse 18"
Gorgon - melee AP +1 in 9" bubble
Jorm - reroll hits vs target; cant be used first round
Hydra - when friendly model dies w/i 6" of psyker then on a 6 is causes a mortal wound to an enemy w/i 6"
Kronos - target unit hit rolls of 6 scores additional hit
My take is that this is very hit and miss for Nids. People have been talking up Exocrines and they'll definitely benefit, but I think the D3 mortals on a unit you failed to kill ability is going to be wasted on something like Exocrines, it'll be much better on units specifically set up for anti infantry shooting like Dakkafexes/Tyrants, and would have been ideal for Devilgaunts, Hive Guard and big squads of Warriors or Ravenors, but unfortunately it looks to be Monster only. For the monsters I'd much rather take the 5++, giving them the much needed survivability that they've been missing all edition. Interestingly of all the abilities you can choose from the only really bad one is the one WarCom chose to preview, which is a bit bizzar.
The Hivefleet Adaptations are mostly trash, a couple of them could be worth trying out but you'll need to build around them and they suffer the same problem that the Haemonculus Coven traits do in the first PA book, namely is it worth giving up Kraken? There's also a couple that already need to be FAQ'd, namely does the Scything Talon trait only apply to the infantry version or does it include the Monstrous and Massive versions as well, plus the Psychic trait seems to be unclear on whether the army gets a once per turn reroll or does each Psycher get the once per turn reroll?
The stratagems seem very situational. Some are guaranteed to see use every game, like the extra Adaptive Physiology strat or the Exocrines can count as stationary when shooting, but most are keyed in to specific units and you're now almost looking to build around specific units like the Haruspex just to get the milage out of what the book offers. Then there are the complete "Why bother?" strats like the -1 to hit, but only if you killed something in the previous fight phase and if attacking unit is within 6" of their target.
This trend continues through relics and psychic powers as well.
Overall I'd say Nids actually got the best content of the 3 PA books so far for none Loyalist Marine factions simply through it being far more comprehensive than what CSM, Craftworlds and Drukhari got, but it's mostly a sideways step that will only bring certain things up to be more usable in casual games and will not bring Nids back to a worthwhile place in the meta. It's just a real shame that it's becoming increasingly clear that PA's main purpose is to bring all Loyalist marine factions up to Codex Space Marine levels.
Xenomancers wrote: I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.
Well, their trait keys off synapse so it makes sense to a point even if it probably wouldn't ever be used.
The trait requires you to be within 6'' to get the benefit though. The psychic power doesn't synergize at all. And that's my fundamental problem with this release -- so much stuff that looks decent to the non-Nids diehards, but then it all falls apart when you look at it under a microscope. And yeah, fundamentally, like somebody mentioned in an earlier post, you have to displace Kraken to make a difference in external balance. None of this stuff looks to do that. So externally, we remain the same faction winning 30% of the time. Internally, there's some help there, and I appreciate that. But they could've turned the knob a little further to the right on helping the dopey monsters, and made Nids players suffering through the edition trying to use those dopes happier. They did not do that.
Xenomancers wrote: I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.
Well, their trait keys off synapse so it makes sense to a point even if it probably wouldn't ever be used.
I believe this misunderstanding is how it ended up so bad. (Trait only affects units within 6" of Synapse creatures. Extending Synapse does nothing for it)
Xenomancers wrote: I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.
Well, their trait keys off synapse so it makes sense to a point even if it probably wouldn't ever be used.
I believe this misunderstanding is how it ended up so bad. (Trait only affects units within 6" of Synapse creatures. Extending Synapse does nothing for it)
that could perhaps be true. However, The trait having that restriction alone is asinine. Look at ironhands trait - they get 6+ FNP 5+ overwatch and ignore degrading stats with no idiotic requirements.
I think the real issue is GW thinks LD actually matters. It is quite possibly the least important mechanic in the game.
Xenomancers wrote: I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.
Well, their trait keys off synapse so it makes sense to a point even if it probably wouldn't ever be used.
I believe this misunderstanding is how it ended up so bad. (Trait only affects units within 6" of Synapse creatures. Extending Synapse does nothing for it)
that could perhaps be true. However, The trait having that restriction alone is asinine. Look at ironhands trait - they get 6+ FNP 5+ overwatch and ignore degrading stats with no idiotic requirements.
I think the real issue is GW thinks LD actually matters. It is quite possibly the least important mechanic in the game.
The faction is riddled with garbage like that. I don't understand how the same people can supercharge Marines but include layers of conditions for Xenos rules (Leviathan trait turns off if Catalyst is on a unit, the horror of a 5++ and a 6++ on a unit!)
Their Pyschic power lets you reroll hits against a selected unit for Jormungandr units that have been set up on the table that turn.
Noice! Both of those are fantastic for me. I'll wait to see if these show up in CA and then figure out what method I'll use to get my hands on those. I'd rather not buy the PA book just for those.
Heres the thing. I say this as a marine player too. The super support characters are too much. Those warlord traits are way better than anything nids got.
Exocrine being able to move and count stationary is nice, but really is only good when you're in a bad spot. So, not bad, but not that great. It's a nice tool when you need it, but not a reason in and of itself to bring Exocrines. The big money is stacking benefits for Scything Talons and the like, and then charging out of deep strike. Some of the new stratagems allow easy charge-from-deepstrike, especially when using something like a Trygon Prime.
I also think people are seriously reading the 6+ FNP adaptation wrong. It's saying that you don't get it if you didn't move the previous movement phase, or during the first battle round. This means if your opponent goes first, since there's no previous battle round, you get 6+++. Technically, as written, if you go first you get it even if you DID move during your first turn during your opponent's first turn. This makes it very tempting; since it's the best part of Hive Fleet Leviathan PLUS some additional bonus (and you don't need a babysitter for the model).
I think this book could make Gargoyles very much worth taking, which sucks as I own ZERO of these:
1. Membrous Membranes + Blinding Venom means these guys will be -1 to hit in CC always, and potentially -2 to hit if they kill just 1 model while in combat.
2. Feeding Frenzy means that Gargoyles that make a charge (again, deep strike plus new methods of being able to get there from deep strike) will bad-touch so many units with a 6" pile in + 3" consolidate.
Not saying any of these things are busted, but these are real things to consider when formulating your Nid battle plan. We have some options to do things we couldn't do before, and that's really worth a lot more to a codex than "lul, I just kill all the things, hey why am i dead?"
Eldarain wrote: The faction is riddled with garbage like that. I don't understand how the same people can supercharge Marines but include layers of conditions for Xenos rules (Leviathan trait turns off if Catalyst is on a unit, the horror of a 5++ and a 6++ on a unit!)
The bigger question is why does this continue to surprise people? It's been this way for 20 years. The same goofballs who ruined 6th and 7th edition are the same guys on the 8th edition team. Why would you expect them to suddenly realize their mistakes? The entire company culture is backward anyways since from what they seem to indicate (they never specifically state this but the way they talk seems to lean towards it being true), models are designed without any input or discussion with the design team, and then thrown to the design team to "make them fit". So you could have the model team making some kind of oddball garbage like oh let's say a derpy looking hovertank because it's "totes kewl", without knowing or caring how it might fit into the game, and then it's on the design team to shoehorn it in.
On top of that, it's been clear for a long time that the only armies the current team are really interested in exploring is Imperium. Nearly all of them, from what I can recall, have various Imperium armies and while they certainly have others they collect, none of them seem to really appeal to them more than kewl Space Marines. So naturally, they spend more than the token effort on Imperium (Marines in particular) and the rest just kind of get an "Oh this sounds right" sort of throwing gak together to get it done.
pm713 wrote: Generally someone learns from mistakes. You'd very much expect someone who made a mistake making 6th to not do that in 7th and 8th.
Oh GW did learn, they hired a competent enough PR team.
And look, it worked, all the custommers finnally beeing fed up in 7th came back and even more.
I just think it will not last and with 125 doccuments of rules i have a serious issue with how GW handels rules atm and i doubt it to be a good thing aswell for the game.
Look I can agree that balancing can be difficult between factions with entirely different philosophies and rules on the units. However, it is inexcusable when one army gets the exact same rule but better as an army trait. ABSOLUTELY inexcusable.
You'd be hard pressed to find a trait in the tyranids army that isn't just a worse version of another armies free rules.
Xenomancers wrote: Look I can agree that balancing can be difficult between factions with entirely different philosophies and rules on the units. However, it is inexcusable when one army gets the exact same rule but better as an army trait. ABSOLUTELY inexcusable.
You'd be hard pressed to find a trait in the tyranids army that isn't just a worse version of another armies free rules.
As a csm and R&H player, I would like to see the worse trait corresponding to WB or R&H covenants
But yeah, just getting worse traits or conditional traits whilest others just get Trait upon trait upon trait is bs no matter how you cut it.
Xenomancers wrote: Look I can agree that balancing can be difficult between factions with entirely different philosophies and rules on the units. However, it is inexcusable when one army gets the exact same rule but better as an army trait. ABSOLUTELY inexcusable.
You'd be hard pressed to find a trait in the tyranids army that isn't just a worse version of another armies free rules.
This is true. One of them you have to outnumber the unit to get a wounding bonus, and then you have the cover one not affecting anything flying. It's pretty bogus, agreed.
pm713 wrote: Generally someone learns from mistakes. You'd very much expect someone who made a mistake making 6th to not do that in 7th and 8th.
What makes you think they haven't been learning? Did they do regular FAQs and point changes in 6th and 7th?
Or FAQ responses like this?
Spoiler:
We’ve had a lot of feedback on this matter, so we thought it would be useful to explain what we were, and what we were
not, attempting to achieve with this errata.
This errata was designed to answer a common question that arose when units that can Fly were attempting to
charge units atop a tall terrain feature, or vice versa. In such a situation, even though the vertical distance between
the charging unit and its target could be quite large, the horizontal distances involved could be very small, or even
nothing. As they ignored the vertical distance to their target when charging, this could result in automatic charges.
This was further compounded when a unit arriving from reserve was set up more than 9" vertically from enemy
models on top of a tall terrain feature, but then either had a charge distance that was substantially less than 9" (or was
automatically charged) that turn when combined with the above. This was not the intent of the original rule and we
therefore took the difficult decision that units that can Fly should have to roll the same charge roll as any other unit.
To be clear, the errata was not published as an attempt to redress any perceived balance within the game, or to tone
down the power of certain units that can Fly (or that can move as if they could Fly). It was designed to make charge
rolls clear and unambiguous for all units – hence we feel it is important that no unit is excluded from the errata. If the
power of any units has been affected as a result of this errata, then we shall review it and adjust its points value (and
Power Rating) accordingly
Or this?
Spoiler:
This is a genuine error on our part, and as such it is
something we wish to correct as soon as possible. As we
are having to make a change of this nature, we are also
taking the opportunity to change the Fires of Battle
Stratagem now, rather than waiting for the next balance
update. Some fiendish combinations we had not spotted
are possible in order to reliably inflict far more mortal
wounds than were ever intended. This change therefore
limits the total number of mortal wounds that this
Stratagem can inflict so that it is more in line with the
mortal wound output of similarly costed Stratagems.
Can you honestly tell me you would have expected GW to do these things back then? Sure, they frigged up marines, but to say they haven't grown is really ignoring the details. With some more pushing from the community they can get their gak together.
Not Online!!! wrote: beyond of course that the later one sounds depending on interpretation rather condescending.
Vice versa i can point to a lot of things in CA and state that overall in the balance spectre they didn't really learn much.,
Exactly. They really HAVEN'T learned. Look at Super Doctrines. Look at the super messed up wording of the Salamanders sacrifice Strat. They need a whole new team, period.
The problem isn't super doctrines as a concept, it's that some super doctrines are more super than others. The BT one is perfectly fine considering how situational and marginal it is. The Iron Hands one... Not so much.
Vice versa i can point to a lot of things in CA and state that overall in the balance spectre they didn't really learn much.,
Yes, perhaps they're barking up the wrong tree with too many point drops (with some exception), but they're leaps and bounds better at missions than anything in the past and they've largely hit the proper things with point changes.
The one item nagging me about points drops is set back a bit by the second point drop for Spawn. I've enjoyed them at 25 points even if particularly not competitive, but they make great engineers hiding behind terrain. Even at 25 I would look at Grotesques with jealousy. These two units are almost identical:
Spawn hit at S5 AP2 D2 and the chance for AP4, +2A, or reroll wounds.
Grotesques are S5 AP2 D1 and +1A or S5 AP0 D1 and 6s to hit cause a MW (in addition, but not vs vehicles)
It really seems like Spawn have the edge, but for units that have to hoof it the Grotesques get off far better with a 4++/6+++ and the subsequent bonuses from PfP as well as better WS. Not to mention the option for T6 (and usually S6). Now, if Rule of Three was not a thing I could probably absolutely SWAMP the table with Spawn and break the game, so there is a bit of crutch there. Grotesques break it a little by being allowed max 10 instead of 5 like Spawn.
Oh, and DE can deepstrike BEAST and INFANTRY (Grotesques are INFANTRY), but my Spawn are totally exempt from such an option.
Is the solution here to add rules to Spawn? I don't know. They already have enough and unless we want 3 or 4 or more special rules for some units point drops are potentially the best way forward. If GW adds deepstrike to Spawn or other such abilities them points need to come up, but for now 20 points might be a good spot - especially with the Thousand Sons strat.
Pardon my ignorance... But my Tyranids have been on the back-burner for the while and I have a simple question: do Trygons get anything useful out of this? Really the only thing bigger than a 'fex I would ever want to play
Do any of the custom Hive traits make a Nidzilla list work? The +1 to hit first turn in melee seems pretty decent when combined with OOE's buff, and the regen 1 wound at start of turn could be useful. I don't play Nids but I always considered a monster list because it would involve less model investment.
LoftyS wrote: Pardon my ignorance... But my Tyranids have been on the back-burner for the while and I have a simple question: do Trygons get anything useful out of this? Really the only thing bigger than a 'fex I would ever want to play
You can give it a 5++ and double wounds on the damage table, make it S8 AP4 D6+1, or let it heal up to 3 in melee.
If the traits apply to massiv scything talons you can get an additional AP there as well as a +1 to hit in the first round of combat. There's a stratagem to get a 3D6 drop 1 charge after a Synapse has charged (successfully, I think) or the same thing when charging a unit that has lost a model to shooting.
Vice versa i can point to a lot of things in CA and state that overall in the balance spectre they didn't really learn much.,
Yes, perhaps they're barking up the wrong tree with too many point drops (with some exception), but they're leaps and bounds better at missions than anything in the past and they've largely hit the proper things with point changes.
The one item nagging me about points drops is set back a bit by the second point drop for Spawn. I've enjoyed them at 25 points even if particularly not competitive, but they make great engineers hiding behind terrain. Even at 25 I would look at Grotesques with jealousy. These two units are almost identical:
Spawn hit at S5 AP2 D2 and the chance for AP4, +2A, or reroll wounds.
Grotesques are S5 AP2 D1 and +1A or S5 AP0 D1 and 6s to hit cause a MW (in addition, but not vs vehicles)
It really seems like Spawn have the edge, but for units that have to hoof it the Grotesques get off far better with a 4++/6+++ and the subsequent bonuses from PfP as well as better WS. Not to mention the option for T6 (and usually S6). Now, if Rule of Three was not a thing I could probably absolutely SWAMP the table with Spawn and break the game, so there is a bit of crutch there. Grotesques break it a little by being allowed max 10 instead of 5 like Spawn.
Oh, and DE can deepstrike BEAST and INFANTRY (Grotesques are INFANTRY), but my Spawn are totally exempt from such an option.
Is the solution here to add rules to Spawn? I don't know. They already have enough and unless we want 3 or 4 or more special rules for some units point drops are potentially the best way forward. If GW adds deepstrike to Spawn or other such abilities them points need to come up, but for now 20 points might be a good spot - especially with the Thousand Sons strat.
Frankly grotesques just tie better in with their faction, therefore get the tools to actually work, whilest spawn only ever was distraction fodder.
(except you talk R&H spawn, which were actually a damage dealer in 7th now they are vegetables though and remain at the 33 pts even though they are literally normal csm spawn.)
Also spawn have no rules that help them for what they do, which is probably the core issue.
As for the abundance of pts cuts, i agree that it probably is often too much in too many fations, otoh most of them are on units that were barely played, HOWEVER some of them were overdue, others i am more skeptic.
Take the Helldrake f.e. it got another cut,it get's to the point where it went from a bad too nigh autoinclude with certain F&F shenanigans, especially for nightlords.
Then there are the obvious classic FW ranges wich didn't really get anything even looked at which would need severe help to make something of a working list back out of them.
Then there are cuts on units that just conceptually can't ever work, Mutilators f.e.
Orodhen wrote: Do any of the custom Hive traits make a Nidzilla list work? The +1 to hit first turn in melee seems pretty decent when combined with OOE's buff, and the regen 1 wound at start of turn could be useful. I don't play Nids but I always considered a monster list because it would involve less model investment.
The best I think is monsters get to advance and shoot with not penalty and ignore penalties with heavy weapons. Very few heavy weapons to take advantage of this (maybe 0) but advance and shoot without pen is pretty dang good for almost every monster.
With the drop to Toxicrine in points I could see that being pretty viable. Great for dakka fexen. Dakka tyrants. It's really too bad this only effects monsters - it would almost make devil gaunts on foot viable. For the other part of your traits I'm not sure what you would take. Maybe 4FNP to overwatch for your tyrants and fex could be good too.
I want to second that. Goonhammer usually got a review up on the day when pre-orders are available. Not as fast as some Youtube guys, but you don't have to try to read a pixelated rule book.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The problem isn't super doctrines as a concept, it's that some super doctrines are more super than others. The BT one is perfectly fine considering how situational and marginal it is. The Iron Hands one... Not so much.
IMO biggest mistake is that traits in general are free which creates an impossible task of balance. Compare a CSM, one with Word Bearers and the other with Alpha Legion - same effective model cost yet completely different tabletop efficiency... this goes for every codex.
Somewhere along the way in wanting to have introducing rules to represent fluff they've made a mess that they can't get out of now until the next reboot.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The problem isn't super doctrines as a concept, it's that some super doctrines are more super than others. The BT one is perfectly fine considering how situational and marginal it is. The Iron Hands one... Not so much.
IMO biggest mistake is that traits in general are free which creates an impossible task of balance. Compare a CSM, one with Word Bearers and the other with Alpha Legion - same effective model cost yet completely different tabletop efficiency... this goes for every codex.
Somewhere along the way in wanting to have introducing rules to represent fluff they've made a mess that they can't get out of now until the next reboot.
Yes, but the door swings both ways. WB get phenomenal Possessed whereas AL do not. WB might be less durable overall, but they have perks that help someone interested in playing a certain way that fits the scope of their legion.
In that sense it's fine for AL to be "better" without needing to make the rest of WB better. Someone can run a WB Vanguard, IW Spearhead, and AL Battalion where they all have something strong to offer.
Eonfuzz wrote: It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.
I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.
Eonfuzz wrote: It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.
I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.
that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.
Eonfuzz wrote: It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.
I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.
that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.
Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.
Eonfuzz wrote: It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.
I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.
that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.
Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
Eonfuzz wrote: It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.
I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.
that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.
Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
Have you got any statistics about more people liking subfactions than entire xenos races? Or have you drank from Xenomancer's coolaid and begun extemporising things on the spot.
Eonfuzz wrote: It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.
I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.
that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.
Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.
*shrugs* keep in mind I'd have been perfectly happy without them the codex supplements could have been pure fluff and I'd have bought them problem is the 6th edition supplements proved to GW that without "awesome advantagous rules" supplements are a hard sell.
BrianDavion wrote: problem is the 6th edition supplements proved to GW that without "awesome advantagous rules" supplements are a hard sell.
I don't know about that. People love flexibility and things that cater to their play style. You could knock out most of the super docs and people would still be using those books.
Eonfuzz wrote: It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.
I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.
that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.
Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.
*shrugs* keep in mind I'd have been perfectly happy without them the codex supplements could have been pure fluff and I'd have bought them problem is the 6th edition supplements proved to GW that without "awesome advantagous rules" supplements are a hard sell.
And you already know I'm for elimination of Supplements and consolidation of the Angels into Codex Marines and Death Guard + Thousand Sons into Codex Legions.
At the time I was excited for a separate Death Guard codex! You might even remember me saying that, while handled poorly, it had neat ideas. I came to the realization that trying these things is a terrible idea. If GW wants to slowly add missions and occasional units with campaigns, I'm a-okay with that. HOWEVER when we only have crunch discussions over missions or campaign rules or fluff, you know why: GW introduces a bunch of garbage at once as per usual.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
I think it's a lot less that people "really like marines", and more that "everyone has marines, and they're easy to field."
I'm not a huge fan of marines. However I have quite a few due to the fact that all the starters including them. When I was much younger, back in 3rd, I even had Dark Angels as my primary army. So I've got a decent contingent of marines laying around from over a decade ago.
I've acquired Primaris via the new starters, which are still marines. I've even gotten two kits of primaris units. Despite not being hugely into marines, I have enough of them laying around - and they're cheap enough to acquire - that I can throw together a fieldable force on a whim, and continue to play while I work on other projects.
I imagine plenty of other people are in the same boat as me. Especially people who play Xenos, but find their armies all but unusable in the current version of the game. So when marines suddenly get a newer, cheaper, immensely powerful codex.. They can continue to suffer with their NPC race, or just break out the old marines they have laying around and get protagonist level rules.
Eonfuzz wrote: I'm talking about *new* model lines, you know, like the support marines have been getting for almost a year on end now.
Nids don't need it; their plastics look amazing. For Space Marines it was desperately needed. Those old stumpy models were terrible. I always laughed when I looked at them. It really never looked like there could be a man in that armor (maybe a horribly deformed man), but the new Primaris range totally does and I like the new models 1,000% better than the old ones. I get how people are salty over feeling like they need to buy a whole new army to keep up with the latest hotness, but let's be fair: the Primaris models are stunning. Maybe that takes some of the salt out of the wound, I dunno.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The problem isn't super doctrines as a concept, it's that some super doctrines are more super than others. The BT one is perfectly fine considering how situational and marginal it is. The Iron Hands one... Not so much.
IMO biggest mistake is that traits in general are free which creates an impossible task of balance. Compare a CSM, one with Word Bearers and the other with Alpha Legion - same effective model cost yet completely different tabletop efficiency... this goes for every codex.
Somewhere along the way in wanting to have introducing rules to represent fluff they've made a mess that they can't get out of now until the next reboot.
Yes, but the door swings both ways. WB get phenomenal Possessed whereas AL do not. WB might be less durable overall, but they have perks that help someone interested in playing a certain way that fits the scope of their legion.
In that sense it's fine for AL to be "better" without needing to make the rest of WB better. Someone can run a WB Vanguard, IW Spearhead, and AL Battalion where they all have something strong to offer.
You realise, that the AL movement shenanigans improve the possesed quite a lot more, right?
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
There's more than a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, IMO. Are Space Marines the focus because they're popular or are they popular because they're the focus? I imagine it's a bit of both. The books and model releases and inclusion in stuff like PA is certainly not insignificant marketing for a faction.
The fiction/model/rules support is so overwhelmingly imperium-alligned, and Space Marine focused even within that, that it gets...boring? to play/be a fan of a xenos army. If there's nothing nothing new for years you're gonna shed fans...and without anything to drive exposure few folks are going to pick it up.
Like, it'll have nearly been two years since Tau have been involved in something by the time of their PA book (except "The Eight", I guess). To say nothing of a new model. And Tau certainly aren't a particularly bad example of neglect. This is a faction that has a pretty easy perspective to use in fluff/books compared with some factions too (like it's hard to have nids or orks have perspective/protagonist characters).
I think it'd be extremely good for the game to spread the development around a bit more.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
I think it's a lot less that people "really like marines", and more that "everyone has marines, and they're easy to field."
I'm not a huge fan of marines. However I have quite a few due to the fact that all the starters including them. When I was much younger, back in 3rd, I even had Dark Angels as my primary army. So I've got a decent contingent of marines laying around from over a decade ago.
I've acquired Primaris via the new starters, which are still marines. I've even gotten two kits of primaris units. Despite not being hugely into marines, I have enough of them laying around - and they're cheap enough to acquire - that I can throw together a fieldable force on a whim, and continue to play while I work on other projects.
I imagine plenty of other people are in the same boat as me. Especially people who play Xenos, but find their armies all but unusable in the current version of the game. So when marines suddenly get a newer, cheaper, immensely powerful codex.. They can continue to suffer with their NPC race, or just break out the old marines they have laying around and get protagonist level rules.
You know I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Morgan Freeman on this matter. Marines are every where and very useful now, so of course you'll see them every where. I know for my not alien factions I have a deal of work to do with some of them, so marines end up the easiest to field, model and put out there if for no other reasons than you just end up with a ton of them from the years of playing as well they tend to be solid and easy to use even if not always the best faction. Only makes sense they would be all over once they are top tier. Other factions need more thought into the army set up, some can be pretty expensive to properly build up and aren't as forgiving as Marines tend to be. I don't think that means everyone loves Marines, but most don't want to feel they took a worse army just for feels.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
There's more than a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, IMO. Are Space Marines the focus because they're popular or are they popular because they're the focus? I imagine it's a bit of both. The books and model releases and inclusion in stuff like PA is certainly not insignificant marketing for a faction.
The fiction/model/rules support is so overwhelmingly imperium-alligned, and Space Marine focused even within that, that it gets...boring? to play/be a fan of a xenos army. If there's nothing nothing new for years you're gonna shed fans...and without anything to drive exposure few folks are going to pick it up.
Like, it'll have nearly been two years since Tau have been involved in something by the time of their PA book (except "The Eight", I guess). To say nothing of a new model. And Tau certainly aren't a particularly bad example of neglect. This is a faction that has a pretty easy perspective to use in fluff/books compared with some factions too (like it's hard to have nids or orks have perspective/protagonist characters).
I think it'd be extremely good for the game to spread the development around a bit more.
it could, on the other hand, alien races are in a bit of a weird spot, because the more GW expands on them the less "alien" they are and the more they risk humanizing them to the point where they're just humans with ptointy ears/green skin/ blue skin/ 6 limbs etc. case in point, necrons where before 5th edition the "faceless hoard" mysterious and lethal etc. and some folks liked that about them. when GW did ther 5th edition codex that gave them more character it appealed to some but others hated it. For the record I like the change. but I'm a biig proponent of GW giving us the option to really make our minis "your guys". When an army has only one valid canon colour scheme it's a mark against it IMHO.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
There's more than a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, IMO. Are Space Marines the focus because they're popular or are they popular because they're the focus? I imagine it's a bit of both. The books and model releases and inclusion in stuff like PA is certainly not insignificant marketing for a faction.
The fiction/model/rules support is so overwhelmingly imperium-alligned, and Space Marine focused even within that, that it gets...boring? to play/be a fan of a xenos army. If there's nothing nothing new for years you're gonna shed fans...and without anything to drive exposure few folks are going to pick it up.
Like, it'll have nearly been two years since Tau have been involved in something by the time of their PA book (except "The Eight", I guess). To say nothing of a new model. And Tau certainly aren't a particularly bad example of neglect. This is a faction that has a pretty easy perspective to use in fluff/books compared with some factions too (like it's hard to have nids or orks have perspective/protagonist characters).
I think it'd be extremely good for the game to spread the development around a bit more.
it could, on the other hand, alien races are in a bit of a weird spot, because the more GW expands on them the less "alien" they are and the more they risk humanizing them to the point where they're just humans with ptointy ears/green skin/ blue skin/ 6 limbs etc. case in point, necrons where before 5th edition the "faceless hoard" mysterious and lethal etc. and some folks liked that about them. when GW did ther 5th edition codex that gave them more character it appealed to some but others hated it. For the record I like the change. but I'm a biig proponent of GW giving us the option to really make our minis "your guys". When an army has only one valid canon colour scheme it's a mark against it IMHO.
Eonfuzz wrote: It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.
I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.
that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.
Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.
yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.
Where in white scar super doctrine is so encouraging the fluffy rhino mounted tactical squads that form majority of white scars?
Where in super doctrines for BA makes it useful to field devastators? You know those squads blood angels use.
People use fluff term to justify more free rules even when it goes AGAINST the fluff.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.
Where in white scar super doctrine is so encouraging the fluffy rhino mounted tactical squads that form majority of white scars?
Where in super doctrines for BA makes it useful to field devastators? You know those squads blood angels use.
People use fluff term to justify more free rules even when it goes AGAINST the fluff.
You realize that’s what the Tactical and Devastator Doctrine are for respectively, right? They do the normal codex bits then relish in the part they like.
You realise, that the AL movement shenanigans improve the possesed quite a lot more, right?
You're missing the broader point.
There is only one way to make Possessed -- D2, +1A, with the ability to force through a buff spell / warp time (this is SSR tier gak right here), and a character that prevents fallback (w/o CP no less) -- and that's Word Bearers.
And the broader point being that it's ok for Legions / Sects / etc to focus on particular units to the "detriment" of other units, because it is fluffy and useful. If you need that ultimate advantage until CSM get super doctrines (if they ever do) then souping the Legions together for their disparate parts isn't a bad thing.
There is only one way to make Possessed -- D2, +1A, with the ability to force through a buff spell / warp time (this is SSR tier gak right here), and a character that prevents fallback (w/o CP no less) -- and that's Word Bearers.
I'll still take AL for this, all of that means crap if you can't get the unit into melee, or protect it. Running a squad of Possessed behind a Disco Lord who's -4 to be hit and using Conceal to prevent shooting at the Possessed is fairly amazing.
How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.
Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)
Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.
This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.
So they get 60 shots, if you field a full 20-man squad. No particular protection outside being T4 3+, but we'll assume you get first turn.
You waltz them up 6", hopefully getting your opponent's juicy target in range, and lay down 60 shots. Hitting on 2s (if you managed to cast Prescience), rerolling 1s (with a Lord), at S5 +1 to-wound, AP0 (but Ignores Cover) and 2 damage a pop.
That's...
58.33 hits 48.61 wounds against a T4 target 16.20 unsaved if they have a 3+ So that's 275 points of Intercessors, if you split fire well. You can do it again with Endless Cacophony, though. Oh-and this assumes the Intercessors aren't Iron Hands or something.
Against a Knight, you're looking at...
58.33 hits 29.16 wounds 9.72 unsaved (half if Armor of the Sainted Ion) 19.44 damage Absolutely REQUIRES Endless Cacophony to bring down. Also requires you to either seize the initiative or for your opponent to foolishly deploy their Knight at the edge of their DZ, since they only have a 30" threat range. (Technically 30+d6 inches, but that requires advancing and makes you a LOT less accurate.)
Bearing in mind, this costs a minimum of 552 points, assuming the Lord and Sorcerer are pretty much naked. And is attached to T4 3+ W1 bodies.
It's powerful-but it's very much a glass cannon. I mean, hell, they can kill 32 Intercessors without defensive buffs in a turn, but what do 30 Intercessors do to them?
60 (or as much as 80, if you pop the Rapid Fire strat) shots 53.33 hits on 3+ rerolling 31.11 wounds at 4+ rerolling 1s 15.56 dead Noise Marines
Now, they DO get to fire when they die (assuming they're in range, which is NOT a guarantee since the Intercessors outrange them) but they would get absolutely CRIPPLED by the people they can kill.
Edit: Also, I would hope that a 380 point unit could do more damage than 6 Wounds to some Intercessors, considering their cost.
Pepperidge Farm remembers when this thread was actually about Nids.
Anecdotally (maybe I'm playing the victim here), Nids have had the biggest drop in presence on forums in 8th. Even in the doldrums of 7th, you had the Loyal Remnant who muddled through and put up with the crap rules. It seems like we're gone in 8th. Case in point, this thread (like every thread on Dakka, to be fair) has turned into a discussion of Primaris vs. the Field.
Anyway, not really sure what my point is. Maybe just that these new rules are so underwhelming that we can't even get 4 pages of a thread out of them, and you can see that overall in Nids rules with the big dropoff in players/discussion.
Xenomancers wrote: How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.
Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)
Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.
This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.
Xenomancers wrote: How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.
Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)
Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.
This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.
This is actually a welcome stratagem for me, because it doesn't mean I face only obliterators and I get to shoot the big giant noise marine blob if I go first. And we're talking AP0 here, so a knight hunkered down -- 120 * .777 * .5 * .167 * 2 = 16 damage. 4 CP and over 400 points with Lord is not a terribly small investment to not kill a knight.
And we're talking about 24" guns, which are pretty easy to avoid...
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Pepperidge Farm remembers when this thread was actually about Nids.
Anecdotally (maybe I'm playing the victim here), Nids have had the biggest drop in presence on forums in 8th. Even in the doldrums of 7th, you had the Loyal Remnant who muddled through and put up with the crap rules. It seems like we're gone in 8th. Case in point, this thread (like every thread on Dakka, to be fair) has turned into a discussion of Primaris vs. the Field.
Anyway, not really sure what my point is. Maybe just that these new rules are so underwhelming that we can't even get 4 pages of a thread out of them, and you can see that overall in Nids rules with the big dropoff in players/discussion.
Makes sense. Tyranids are one of the most CC-focused armies out there in an edition where shooting is king. Even Orks, the other major CC army, have been forced to transform into a gunline army in 8th to stay competitive. Other advantages that 'Nids used to have (move fast, reduced difficult terrain penalties, ignore most morale effects) have been written into the main game such that most armies now have essentially the same advantages, so you don't even get to be special in those ways, either.
Tbh tyranids are still a powerful army on my meta. Are you all playing it tournaments everyday ? Compared to my friends TS / GK / DG / necrons they are quite good I think.
And 8th actually rewards good assault, not shooting.
Sure, Nids are powerful if you take a zillion Genestealers and The Swarmlord, backed up by Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons. Otherwise they're pretty meh.
Xenomancers wrote: How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.
Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)
Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.
This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.
You can scout move them and warp time them. 36 to
This is actually a welcome stratagem for me, because it doesn't mean I face only obliterators and I get to shoot the big giant noise marine blob if I go first. And we're talking AP0 here, so a knight hunkered down -- 120 * .777 * .5 * .167 * 2 = 16 damage. 4 CP and over 400 points with Lord is not a terribly small investment to not kill a knight.
And we're talking about 24" guns, which are pretty easy to avoid...
Ehhh - they are also assault weapons so you can advance if you are out of range. Not easy to avoid them really without a massive LOS blocker. Plus there is warp time. Killing a knight on average with a 400 point unit or less is literally insane. When you are doing it with anti infantry weapons which also kill 36 intercessors or like 70 infantry squads. It's just dumb by any messsure of balance. The units damage is literally buffed by 1000%. 20 noise marines follow by oblits dropping in...is going to be auto win. Esp with 2 tzangor bombs. cry cry. Choas sucks. lol. FYI. This is gonna be a tournament winner with both noise marines and oblitz being dropped in points and this 1 CP stratagem trippling noise marine damage against t8.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pointed Stick wrote: Sure, Nids are powerful if you take a zillion Genestealers and The Swarmlord, backed up by Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons. Otherwise they're pretty meh.
Xenomancers wrote: How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.
Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)
Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.
This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.
You can scout move them and warp time them. 36 to
This is actually a welcome stratagem for me, because it doesn't mean I face only obliterators and I get to shoot the big giant noise marine blob if I go first. And we're talking AP0 here, so a knight hunkered down -- 120 * .777 * .5 * .167 * 2 = 16 damage. 4 CP and over 400 points with Lord is not a terribly small investment to not kill a knight.
And we're talking about 24" guns, which are pretty easy to avoid...
Ehhh - they are also assault weapons so you can advance if you are out of range. Not easy to avoid them really without a massive LOS blocker. Plus there is warp time. Killing a knight on average with a 400 point unit or less is literally insane. When you are doing it with anti infantry weapons which also kill 36 intercessors or like 70 infantry squads. It's just dumb by any messsure of balance. The units damage is literally buffed by 1000%. 20 noise marines follow by oblits dropping in...is going to be auto win. Esp with 2 tzangor bombs. cry cry. Choas sucks. lol. FYI. This is gonna be a tournament winner with both noise marines and oblitz being dropped in points.
380+98>400.
Even without accounting for the Lord, they're over 400 points.
And if they need to advance, they only score 46.67 hits with a Lord, 23.33 wounds, 7.78 wounds, and 15.56 damage. So they CAN kill a Knight... But the Knight has a decent chance of living. About 30%. Assuming no Armor Of The Sainted Ion. Not to mention, you're relying on two separate psychic powers to go off. And first turn.
Xenomancers wrote: Ehhh - they are also assault weapons so you can advance if you are out of range. Not easy to avoid them really without a massive LOS blocker. Plus there is warp time. Killing a knight on average with a 400 point unit or less is literally insane. When you are doing it with anti infantry weapons which also kill 36 intercessors or like 70 infantry squads. It's just dumb by any messsure of balance. The units damage is literally buffed by 1000%. 20 noise marines follow by oblits dropping in...is going to be auto win. Esp with 2 tzangor bombs. cry cry. Choas sucks. lol. FYI. This is gonna be a tournament winner with both noise marines and oblitz being dropped in points and this 1 CP stratagem trippling noise marine damage against t8.
Xenomancers wrote: How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.
Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)
Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.
This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.
Ok, Xeno...
It might not be the way you want to play but it's broken. It's going to be a meta changer. Immediately.
Xenomancers wrote: It might not be the way you want to play but it's broken. It's going to be a meta changer. Immediately.
I'm not lacking in Noise Marines or sonic weaponry models, believe me.
You're becoming the old man yelling at clouds Xeno.
But we'll check back in a month, see if all the lawns in the neighborhood have been torn up by these Noise Marine hooligans you're sure are coming to make a mockery of the HOA.
Xenomancers wrote: It might not be the way you want to play but it's broken. It's going to be a meta changer. Immediately.
I'm not lacking in Noise Marines or sonic weaponry models, believe me.
You're becoming the old man yelling at clouds Xeno.
But we'll check back in a month, see if all the lawns in the neighborhood have been torn up by these Noise Marine hooligans you're sure are coming to make a mockery of the HOA.
Just demonstrated with average math this unit can kill 36 intercessors / a knight (pretty close to killing 2 knights)/ 2 repulsor executioners. You automatically lose going second against this unit. It's actually worse than nu marines. FYI - new marines likely aren't killing this much stuff with their entire army. Turn 1. 20 Noise marines is only 340 points.
20 Noise Marines with SONIC BLASTERS are 380 currently. And Sorcerers and Lords cost points too.
Yeah that was my bad - i was doing 88% wounds not 84% for wounding on 2's.
I'm going off current points values, as per Battlescribe. (I do not trust my Codex to be right anymore.) If that's inaccurate and they are 17 PPM, they're still over 400 points with Prescience and Warptime, since the Sorcerer is more than 60 points.
Xenomancers wrote: Did sonic blaster go up in points? Saw that noise marines dropped 2 points.
Based on current points leaks 20 man Noise Marines, 20x Sonic Blasters will be 340 points.
Also, running the math, 120 shots, hitting on a 2+, re-rolling 1s to hit, wounding on a 4+, doing D2/shot ends up with a little over 16 unsaved wounds. So, don't think you're getting 2 Knights out of that, on a good day with some bad rolls from your opponent you might get 1.
I don't think you're getting 33 Intercessors either, but it's not that far off what you'd actually get.
But please continue to blow it out of proportion, as usual, Chaos is resigned to being the bogeyman used to distract from nu-Marines absurdity.
With this "psychic awakening" series, would it not have been better to do some rules for the involved sides, but kept the content mostly on narrative missions and rules that serve those missions?
Also, it would have been even more enticing if they added missions for Kill Team and Apocalypse. Taking Blood of Baal, its just 6 pages of Baal missions and even combined with the 9 Tyranid pages - thats not even half the page count of the Blood Angel stuff(whether its recycled material or not).
That said, page count is not always an indication of quality. It could be 40 pages of crap, 9 pages of silver and 6 of gold.
Xenomancers wrote: 20 Noise Marines with SONIC BLASTERS are 380 currently. And Sorcerers and Lords cost points too.
Did sonic blaster go up in points? Saw that noise marines dropped 2 points.
Based on current points leaks 20 man Noise Marines, 20x Sonic Blasters will be 340 points.
Also, running the math, 120 shots, hitting on a 2+, re-rolling 1s to hit, wounding on a 4+, doing D2/shot ends up with a little over 16 unsaved wounds. So, don't think you're getting 2 Knights out of that, on a good day with some bad rolls from your opponent you might get 1.
I don't think you're getting 33 Intercessors either, but it's not that far off what you'd actually get.
But please continue to blow it out of proportion, as usual, Chaos is resigned to being the bogeyman used to distract from nu-Marines absurdity.
JNAProductions wrote: I posted the math on Intercessors earlier. You get about 33, if you split fire well.
I ended up with 27, and yes, your split fire would have to be prescient, to say the least. I assume the difference is counting the Remnant in there.
So, currently, the Noise Marine investment being discussed involves the following:
20 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters - 340 points
1 Slaaneshi Sorcerer - 80 points
1 Chaos Lord - 74 points
Veterans of the Long War - 1 CP Endless Cacophany - 2 CP Excruciating Frequencies - 1 CP Relics of Chaos - 1 CP
We'll assume you got Prescience off without having to burn a CP on a re-roll. So, basically, 500 points and 5 CP, maybe we should have some sort of challenge where every army can show up with 'give me your best 500 point/5 CP combo' and we can compare and contrast?
Because, to be honest, for 500 points and 5 CP, I expect some fething performance.
The thing I'm looking forward to most in PA3 with my nids is having my 3 toxicrenes finally get to use their tentacles to restrain targets. Other than that, suicide gants with the hydra psychic power could be hilarious.
You guys thinking that Nids get nothing out of this are really blind. Like crazy blind. I picked up my book yesterday, and if you take 5 minutes to look at some of the craziness this book offers and the new lease on life it gives to a bunch of units... you'd realize there's some FIENDISHLY good stuff in here.
#1 - Mawlocs. +2 to their roll for mortal wounds means that they never fail to deal at least 1 mortal wound (roll of 1), sometimes deal d3 mortal wounds (2-3), and most frequently will deal straight 3 (4+). That's to EACH unit within 2" of them when they pop up. You hit 3 units with that, you're looking at an average of 7 mortal wounds dealt for 104 points. Rock-solid. Even very smart opponents will generally get 2 units hit by this, and may the Emperor protect unwise opponents that get 4 or more units hit.
#2 - Being able to give -1AP to scything talons, even if we don't know whether or not it applies to also the big scything talons, is a big deal. Being able to give those an extra -1AP? Also a big deal. Being able to potentially give an EXTRA -1AP on top of that? MASSIVELY BIG DEAL! You know who makes a lot of quality Scything Talon attacks (even just basic ones)? Raveners supported by the Red Terror. And guess what; that all deep strikes natively AND there's ways to buff deep strike & charge in this supplement. (EDIT: 5 attacks per Ravener * 9 Raveners, hitting on 2+'s, rerolling 1's).
#3 - 6 Biovores + synapse. There's an adaptation that allows you to reroll one failed hit roll per unit's attack. Well, three squads of 2x Biovores will hugely benefit from this, such that you should hit with 4 or 5 Biovore shots. That's roughly 5 Mortal Wounds per turn anywhere on the table (okay, within 48", whatever).
#4 - Give your opponent's army -1 to hit army-wide. Kill something small with a huge unit of Hormagaunts, use "Savage Distraction", then use things like Adrenaline Surge and/or "Overrun" to totally surround your opponent's army now they either need to bunch up even tighter (possibly impossibly tight), or suffer -1 to hit against your whole army. Stack with Malanthrope or something to make it -2 to hit against your whole army.
Seriously, there's some beastly things here if you can use your imagination.
Yarium wrote: You guys thinking that Nids get nothing out of this are really blind. Like crazy blind. I picked up my book yesterday, and if you take 5 minutes to look at some of the craziness this book offers and the new lease on life it gives to a bunch of units... you'd realize there's some FIENDISHLY good stuff in here.
#1 - Mawlocs. +2 to their roll for mortal wounds means that they never fail to deal at least 1 mortal wound (roll of 1), sometimes deal d3 mortal wounds (2-3), and most frequently will deal straight 3 (4+). That's to EACH unit within 2" of them when they pop up. You hit 3 units with that, you're looking at an average of 7 mortal wounds dealt for 104 points. Rock-solid. Even very smart opponents will generally get 2 units hit by this, and may the Emperor protect unwise opponents that get 4 or more units hit.
#2 - Being able to give -1AP to scything talons, even if we don't know whether or not it applies to also the big scything talons, is a big deal. Being able to give those an extra -1AP? Also a big deal. Being able to potentially give an EXTRA -1AP on top of that? MASSIVELY BIG DEAL! You know who makes a lot of quality Scything Talon attacks (even just basic ones)? Raveners supported by the Red Terror. And guess what; that all deep strikes natively AND there's ways to buff deep strike & charge in this supplement. (EDIT: 5 attacks per Ravener * 9 Raveners, hitting on 2+'s, rerolling 1's).
#3 - 6 Biovores + synapse. There's an adaptation that allows you to reroll one failed hit roll per unit's attack. Well, three squads of 2x Biovores will hugely benefit from this, such that you should hit with 4 or 5 Biovore shots. That's roughly 5 Mortal Wounds per turn anywhere on the table (okay, within 48", whatever).
#4 - Give your opponent's army -1 to hit army-wide. Kill something small with a huge unit of Hormagaunts, use "Savage Distraction", then use things like Adrenaline Surge and/or "Overrun" to totally surround your opponent's army now they either need to bunch up even tighter (possibly impossibly tight), or suffer -1 to hit against your whole army. Stack with Malanthrope or something to make it -2 to hit against your whole army.
Seriously, there's some beastly things here if you can use your imagination.
1# Thats certainly cool, but smart players will make sure that they don't hit anything beyond chaff. And then there's the increadibly stupid bit of rules writting that means Space Marine Infiltrators with visors now somehow stop giant monsters from tunneling underneath them because reasons.
2# That is very cool, I have long been toying with the idea of running 27 Ravenors beacuse everyone else is doing Genestealers (who would also benefit from this trait as they can take Scything Talons for free), the fact that they've dropped 5ppm in CA will really help them as well. Still extremely fragile though. However, the problem with the buffs to charging is that unless I've missed a couple things stacking, you'll stil at best be looking at an 8" charge rolling 3D6 and discarding the lowest, not terrible but not amazing either, and in Kraken with the Swarmlord you could already get 2 squads to move on average 22-24" across the board and then charge turn 1.
3# You know whats better, doing this with Kronos. The thing with Biovores is that they're already good, the much needed points drop in CA is the real boost for them. Hitting the target and doing mortal wounds is cool, missing the target and move blocking them with Spore Mines is also coool, using said spore mines for the Kronos stratagem is also very cool. Biovores are an interesting unit because they're good regardless of whether they hit or not, it's just a shame they have overly expensive failcast models.
4# Never going to happen. The Malenthrope will never keep up with the Hormagaunts to give them the -2, and why would you want a Malenthrope that far forward anyway? More importantly, my Drukhari list with 6 Venoms and 30 Mandrakes in Raiders can clear 40 Genestealers a turn without breaking a sweat, I could do worse to Hormagaunts even with the -1, especially since Dark Technomancers is now a thing, so good luck to that.
Point is, there's good stuff in there. Interesting stuff. Broken? Likely not, because I don't like broken anyways. But certainly there are some real combos here. Multiple combos. And I'm not even a good player. If I can figure out things here, that mean's there's some cool things that are possible through this. There's enough things that make you go "well, maybe that can be part of a plan" to suggest that at least 1 of those will be strong enough to be part of a competitive Tyranid plan. And for metas that are less than "we only play with the top lists of SoCal Open", you probably can do really well as Tyranids with some of these.
Savage Distraction gives the unit an aura that debuffs enemy units within 6" of the distracting unit and gives them -1 to hit not only against hormagaunts, but against everything on the table.
That penalty will stack with shrouding spores protecting the main Nid body.
Tricky, but if done well, it will throw a massive wrench into the enemy's shooting phase.
Imateria wrote: However, the problem with the buffs to charging is that unless I've missed a couple things stacking, you'll stil at best be looking at an 8" charge rolling 3D6 and discarding the lowest, not terrible but not amazing either
3D6 drop lowest has a 68% chance of getting an 8+. We also have several ways to add an extra D6 to the roll and pick lowest, so as far as I can tell those should stack (eg Hive Instinct and Hunter's Drive).
You can also throw in a Lictor with its new stratagem to ignore overwatch if you so desire.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: That's also without including a CP reroll if you have to, right?
That's correct.
I also forgot that we have a couple of ways to re-roll the dice entirely, eg Synaptic Lure. So throw that in on top of a 3D6-drop-one and you've got a 90% chance of making the charge, for a very modest cost of a psychic power and a CP at most.
Xenomancers wrote: It might not be the way you want to play but it's broken. It's going to be a meta changer. Immediately.
People said that about the stupid chaincannon and got mad that the kit didn't have like all chaincannons and we don't see the damn things ever.
IDK why they thought that. It's a heavy weapon and it's expensive AND it comes in limited supply. The reason this noise marine stratagem is busted is it affects 20 man units. D-1 to D2 is 100% damage increase and if the str 5 is a break point...like at t4 and t8 it is another huge break point.
JNAProductions wrote: I posted the math on Intercessors earlier. You get about 33, if you split fire well.
I ended up with 27, and yes, your split fire would have to be prescient, to say the least. I assume the difference is counting the Remnant in there.
So, currently, the Noise Marine investment being discussed involves the following:
20 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters - 340 points
1 Slaaneshi Sorcerer - 80 points
1 Chaos Lord - 74 points
Veterans of the Long War - 1 CP Endless Cacophany - 2 CP Excruciating Frequencies - 1 CP Relics of Chaos - 1 CP
We'll assume you got Prescience off without having to burn a CP on a re-roll. So, basically, 500 points and 5 CP, maybe we should have some sort of challenge where every army can show up with 'give me your best 500 point/5 CP combo' and we can compare and contrast?
Because, to be honest, for 500 points and 5 CP, I expect some fething performance.
How many knights should you realistically be able to kill in a turn. They have 4 knights at 2000 points. If they are losing a knight per turn on average from 500 points of your army that is a dedicated anti infantry unit. How is that player supposed to have any chance? How is any army supposed to have a chance if you have a unit like this which can literally kill anything by putting 50ish wounds on something t8 with 2 damage each? Also - what relic are you talking about I calculate 33 intercessor kills with just 4cp and presence? And - would you ever take a choas army without a sorcerer? It is not an expenditure - in fact - having an efficient unit for that sorcerer to buff is a giant benefit to the sorcerer and the lord should be buffing as many units as he can.
Also forgive me for slightly derailing here. This is coming from new PA rules. Nids would throw away literally every other change they got for a single stratagem this good.
Xenomancers wrote: How many knights should you realistically be able to kill in a turn.
Well, this won't even kill one, so, not sure what your point is with this.
Xenomancers wrote: If they are losing a knight per turn on average from 500 points of your army that is a dedicated anti infantry unit.
As we established, they're not.
Xenomancers wrote: How is any army supposed to have a chance if you have a unit like this which can literally kill anything by putting 50ish wounds on something t8 with 2 damage each?
It's actually 48 wounds if you're not counting re-rolls and you're adding in Veterans. Which on a 3+ save results in 16 wounds, add in the relic and it bumps up to 21 wounds once per game. So, still not a dead knight, hell, that's not even a dead baneblade. So I've spent 500 points and 5 CP to maybe remove a sub-500 point model from the table, strangely I don't think it's quite what your bad math seems to think it is.
Xenomancers wrote: Also - what relic are you talking about I calculate 33 intercessor kills with just 4cp and presence?
If you're not counting the Relic then your math is really wrong or you're counting a wound re-roll of some sort that doesn't exist.
Xenomancers wrote: And - would you ever take a choas army without a sorcerer? It is not an expenditure - in fact - having an efficient unit for that sorcerer to buff is a giant benefit to the sorcerer and the lord should be buffing as many units as he can.
How many units is this amazing sorcerer buffing? Because he's sitting and babysitting 1 squad. That's it, he's not flitting around like fething Tinkerbell buffing every donkey-cave he can find. He's buffing 1 squad, period, done, that's it. So you've bought that character specifically for that squad, end of story. By the way, the Chaos Lord and his 6" aura is doing the same thing, buffing 1 unit.
Hitting on 2's reroll 1's is 97% hits
wounding on 4's is 50% wounds.
120 x .97 = 116.4 (2's reroll 1's to hit)
116.4 x .5 = 58.2 (4's to wound)
58.2 x .333 = 19.38 (3+ saves failed)
19.38 x 2 = 38.8 (2 damage)
It practically kills 2 knights man. It is mostly the 1 cp stratagem doing it too. It triples your damage to t8 vehicals.
I disagree about the sorcerer also. You have to take hq's to get CP and you are going to use him to buff a unit every turn as long as he is alive. Having better units to buff is a positive. He's not baby sitting - he is doing lots of jobs - he is moving up to deny psychic powers - he is giving melle support - he is also going to buff the oblits when they deep strike to. He is a lynch pin. Not a burden.
Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.
I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.
Hitting on 2's reroll 1's is 97% hits
wounding on 4's is 50% wounds.
120 x .97 = 116.4 (2's reroll 1's to hit)
116.4 x .5 = 58.2 (4's to wound)
58.2 x .333 = 19.38 (3+ saves failed)
19.38 x 2 = 38.8 (2 damage)
It practically kills 2 knights man. It is mostly the 1 cp stratagem doing it too. It triples your damage to t8 vehicals.
I disagree about the sorcerer also. You have to take hq's to get CP and you are going to use him to buff a unit every turn as long as he is alive. Having better units to buff is a positive. He's not baby sitting - he is doing lots of jobs - he is moving up to deny psychic powers - he is giving melle support - he is also going to buff the oblits when they deep strike to. He is a lynch pin. Not a burden.
You play in the land of perfectly prescient splitfire. You'll kill one knight, if you're lucky. Also, the Sorcerer is doing feth all melee support, you're praying he doesn't get punked by a squad sergeant, seriously. He is babysitting, he is fragile and you're hoping he can occasionally deny a power. You're seriously deranged on this, apparently you've found Sorcerer superman who flies everywhere and does everything. Further, I didn't call him a burden, I simply don't see him as the ungodly superman you seem to think he is. Sorcerers have real characters and squads to protect them, not the other way around, they hide and try not to get shot, and when RG is on the table, they kiss their asses goodbye.
Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.
I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.
Ah, so in effect, you're not even killing a Knight. Remember, they have a strat which lets them operate on the top bracket for 1 CP.
Xeno's math is right, the theorical damage output is really really high.
Problem is that this will never happen in a real game.
If i see that you have a 20 strong unit of those things, i know what is going to happen, so i will select the deployment where i have 24" inches of free deployment available and deploy a bit back. Remember that the defender selects both deployment type and deployment side.
This is assuming that the noise marines are going first, because if they not, they are in for a world of hurt.
Spoletta wrote: Xeno's math is right, the theorical damage output is really really high.
Problem is that this will never happen in a real game.
If i see that you have a 20 strong unit of those things, i know what is going to happen, so i will select the deployment where i have 24" inches of free deployment available and deploy a bit back. Remember that the defender selects both deployment type and deployment side.
This is assuming that the noise marines are going first, because if they not, they are in for a world of hurt.
The whole scenario hinges on a lot of 'ifs'. Going first is the most obvious problem, Emperor's Children have no way to protect that squad, much less their apparently hyper mobile, melee beatstick, super casting sorcerer god. Going second pretty much destroys most of the concerns here.
As stated earlier, for 500 points and 5 CP it should wreck some gak.
#2 - Being able to give -1AP to scything talons, even if we don't know whether or not it applies to also the big scything talons, is a big deal. Being able to give those an extra -1AP? Also a big deal. Being able to potentially give an EXTRA -1AP on top of that? MASSIVELY BIG DEAL! You know who makes a lot of quality Scything Talon attacks (even just basic ones)? Raveners supported by the Red Terror. And guess what; that all deep strikes natively AND there's ways to buff deep strike & charge in this supplement. (EDIT: 5 attacks per Ravener * 9 Raveners, hitting on 2+'s, rerolling 1's).
2# That is very cool, I have long been toying with the idea of running 27 Ravenors beacuse everyone else is doing Genestealers (who would also benefit from this trait as they can take Scything Talons for free), the fact that they've dropped 5ppm in CA will really help them as well. Still extremely fragile though. However, the problem with the buffs to charging is that unless I've missed a couple things stacking, you'll stil at best be looking at an 8" charge rolling 3D6 and discarding the lowest, not terrible but not amazing either, and in Kraken with the Swarmlord you could already get 2 squads to move on average 22-24" across the board and then charge turn 1.
There is a point cost where the ravener profile starts not being so frail any more, and 18ppm gets quite close to that. At 6 points per wound at T4 5+ you are talking about guardsmen level of resistance against lasguns, and same level of intercessors against -2 AP fire. 3 wounds profile are also hugely better than 2 wounds to avoid getting shred by burst cannons, stalker bolter, plasma, impaler cannons, disintegrators and stuff like that. Against smash captains the intercessors are only slightly better (they can save on 6+). In general you can see that raveners compare easily with troops which are surely not defined as frail.
In any case, if you play that ravener blob, also take a detachment of gorgon with a flyrant. Give him the reaper of obliterax, toxin sacks and the adaptation for +1 StrAP and damage. Drop him together with the raveners and cast the new Gorgon power of -1AP bubble (works on all friendlies, not only Gorgon). Now you gave the raveners an additional -1 AP and you got yourself one of the most powerful beatsticks in the game (that tyrant can solo a knight in one round, hurts more than a smash captain, i call him "Gorgon Reaper").
Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.
I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.
Ah, so in effect, you're not even killing a Knight. Remember, they have a strat which lets them operate on the top bracket for 1 CP.
Good thing you have 1500 more points to deal 8 total wounds and auto win the game.
Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.
I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.
Ah, so in effect, you're not even killing a Knight. Remember, they have a strat which lets them operate on the top bracket for 1 CP.
Good thing you have 1500 more points to deal 8 total wounds and auto win the game.
And what if you get second turn? Your Noise Marines get pasted. Not to mention, all Knights is not a tournament-WINNING list, it's a gatekeeper list.
Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.
I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.
Ah, so in effect, you're not even killing a Knight. Remember, they have a strat which lets them operate on the top bracket for 1 CP.
Good thing you have 1500 more points to deal 8 total wounds and auto win the game.
And what if you get second turn? Your Noise Marines get pasted. Not to mention, all Knights is not a tournament-WINNING list, it's a gatekeeper list.
The point is it doesn't matter what this unit shoots at. It's destroying it more or less automatically. Nothing is more successful that weight of dice. Double shooting with +2 to wound (+1 str might not give you +1 to wound but when it does it's devestertaing) and double damage. These stratas combine to procude something in the range of 1000% damage increase. Making a 340 point unit shoot like a 3400 point unit. it's basically indefensible at this point.
Yarium wrote: Point is, there's good stuff in there. Interesting stuff. Broken? Likely not, because I don't like broken anyways. But certainly there are some real combos here. Multiple combos. And I'm not even a good player. If I can figure out things here, that mean's there's some cool things that are possible through this. There's enough things that make you go "well, maybe that can be part of a plan" to suggest that at least 1 of those will be strong enough to be part of a competitive Tyranid plan. And for metas that are less than "we only play with the top lists of SoCal Open", you probably can do really well as Tyranids with some of these.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong I'm liking more and more of this book, it's considerably better than what my other two armies, Craftworlds and Drukhari, got in PA1. Tyranids problem is the base codex though and things like most of our combat monsters being WS4+. Sure, there's a trait that gives monsters +1 to hit on the turn they charge, but that means we're now relying on a trait just to make things usable. Overall it's a step up on the base codex, but it'll only put us mid tier at best and there remains zero point in playing against a decent Space Marine list.
But that assumes that the unit is good in the first place.
If you supercharge a bad unit, it becomes good. While I certainly agree it'd be better to have a good unit that can't be boosted like that, I doubt it'll rock the competitive scene.
If you supercharge a bad unit, it becomes good. While I certainly agree it'd be better to have a good unit that can't be boosted like that, I doubt it'll rock the competitive scene.
This was a pretty competitive build at LVo. I actually played against it twice and it rocked me lost and tied to it. Yeah it went first both times and I nearly came back because he couldn't kill my Castellan. However - now he kills it in 1 turn no issue. Infantry are basically indestructable at an ITC event. You just start them in a building. 20 Noise marines already could wipe most your infantry from the table with aplha strike. This unit did not also need to ability to wipe every primaris off the table turn 1 or just about any 2 large units. This unit is so good there is no reason not to bring 2 also.
If you supercharge a bad unit, it becomes good. While I certainly agree it'd be better to have a good unit that can't be boosted like that, I doubt it'll rock the competitive scene.
This was a pretty competitive build at LVo. I actually played against it twice and it rocked me lost and tied to it. Yeah it went first both times and I nearly came back because he couldn't kill my Castellan. However - now he kills it in 1 turn no issue. Infantry are basically indestructable at an ITC event. You just start them in a building. 20 Noise marines already could wipe most your infantry from the table with aplha strike. This unit did not also need to ability to wipe every primaris off the table turn 1 or just about any 2 large units. This unit is so good there is no reason not to bring 2 also.
Really? Do you have a source for this?
Because 20 Noise Marines without this strat, even with Prescience, VotLW, and EC, kill only about 13 Intercessors.
For reference, that's about two thirds their points value, not including buffing units.
Xenomancers wrote: Making a 340 point unit shoot like a 3400 point unit. it's basically indefensible at this point.
That's not remotely how that progression works.
I broke the efficiency down. 20 nice marines kills like 3 primaris marines and it goes to killing 33 with all these buffs. That is a 1000% increase. It goes from dealing 3 wounds to a knight to dealing 38 to a knight. That is over 1000% increase. That is exactly how the progression works. This game is now a joke. Kind of like it always has been. With 130 point smash captains stacking a bunch of abilities and fighting twice and killing 600 point models more or less automatically. No one likes this kind of game play so why do you defend it? GW doesn't even understand the way their game works.
If you supercharge a bad unit, it becomes good. While I certainly agree it'd be better to have a good unit that can't be boosted like that, I doubt it'll rock the competitive scene.
This was a pretty competitive build at LVo. I actually played against it twice and it rocked me lost and tied to it. Yeah it went first both times and I nearly came back because he couldn't kill my Castellan. However - now he kills it in 1 turn no issue. Infantry are basically indestructable at an ITC event. You just start them in a building. 20 Noise marines already could wipe most your infantry from the table with aplha strike. This unit did not also need to ability to wipe every primaris off the table turn 1 or just about any 2 large units. This unit is so good there is no reason not to bring 2 also.
Really? Do you have a source for this?
Because 20 Noise Marines without this strat, even with Prescience, VotLW, and EC, kill only about 13 Intercessors.
For reference, that's about two thirds their points value, not including buffing units.
I was playing IG castellan. I would have never brought 1.0 marines to a tournament LOL.
I broke the efficiency down. 20 nice marines kills like 3 primaris marines and it goes to killing 33 with all these buffs. That is a 1000% increase. It goes from dealing 3 wounds to a knight to dealing 38 to a knight. That is over 1000% increase. That is exactly how the progression works. This game is now a joke. Kind of like it always has been. With 130 point smash captains stacking a bunch of abilities and fighting twice and killing 600 point models more or less automatically. No one likes this kind of game play so why do you defend it? GW doesn't even understand the way their game works.
No, it isn't. 3400 points is the equivalent of ten Repulsor Executioners. Your 20-man blob isnt coming anywhere close to that level of firepower, even in your addled scenarios.
I broke the efficiency down. 20 nice marines kills like 3 primaris marines and it goes to killing 33 with all these buffs. That is a 1000% increase. It goes from dealing 3 wounds to a knight to dealing 38 to a knight. That is over 1000% increase. That is exactly how the progression works. This game is now a joke. Kind of like it always has been. With 130 point smash captains stacking a bunch of abilities and fighting twice and killing 600 point models more or less automatically. No one likes this kind of game play so why do you defend it? GW doesn't even understand the way their game works.
No, it isn't. 3400 points is the equivalent of ten Repulsor Executioners. Your 20-man blob isnt coming anywhere close to that level of firepower, even in your addled scenarios.
It makes 20 noise marines shoot like 200 noise marines...does that sound better to you?
Didn't we already have numerous threads in which to discuss Faith & Fury?
I forgot that nids have Noise Marines, Sorcerors, Sonic Blasters, Emperor's Children, Knights, and all the other gak you people are blasting off about in this thread.
morganfreeman wrote: Didn't we already have numerous threads in which to discuss Faith & Fury?
I forgot that nids have Noise Marines, Sorcerors, Sonic Blasters, Emperor's Children, Knights, and all the other gak you people are blasting off about in this thread.
It devolved somewhere around Xeno's 'KFF makes your army invulnerable yo!' rant.
Obviously it's now devolved into 'Noise Marines kill 2k points per turn! Why don't you run Sorc Smash?' rant.
My sides can't take any more of this. I am splitting here. Please, let me catch my breath at least. Tears are streaming down my face and my cheeks are sore from smiling so much.
Your posts are beyond a joke at this point.
They're also wildly off topic which is - Nids in PA3.
Dysartes wrote: Spoletta, is the 3MW on that table normally on a 6, or on a 6+?
Interesting question... no it doesn't, so a result of 7 and 8 would crash the game, but it is probably specified in the stratagem. My PA still has not arrived...
By the way, rereading it, the mawlock was a bit better. On a result of 4-5 you got d3 MW, so the boosted mawlock will inflict 1 MW on a result of 1 and d3 on a result of 2 and 3. Quite nice.
Some food for thought re: Mawlocs: Presumably if you want to make the most of the strat, you'd come in turn 2, burrow turn 3, and come in again turn 4. So unless you burrow turn 5 and re-appear turn 6 (dangerous, since if the game ends at the conclusion of turn 5, a burrowed Mawloc is considered killed), you're getting just two opportunities to inflict mortal wounds.
So for the cost of ~100pts and 2CP you're looking at 2.33MW per unit you catch in each of those two opportunities. If you can grab 2-3 units each time then that's around 12MW.
A Neurothrope has a roughly similar cost, fills an HQ slot, and if it keeps spamming Psychic Scream and Smite does around 4MW per turn (assuming it passes its psychic tests). So if it can stay alive for three turns, it does a comparable amount of damage to the Mawloc over four turns, and without costing any CP.
The Neurothrope is also more vulnerable, can be Denied, and can't choose its targets, so it's more likely to waste MW on chaff. However, it starts hitting earlier, giving it more ability to contribute to the outcome of the game.
Thinking about scaling, two Mawlocs to stagger their attacks might be doable, but you're looking at one of them not coming in until turn 3. There's a good chance the game will be decided by then.
I dunno. Taking one to maximize the stratagem might be useful, but I'm not totally sold just yet.
catbarf wrote: I dunno. Taking one to maximize the stratagem might be useful, but I'm not totally sold just yet.
Likely won't be able to burrow, because your opponent has to not charge you. Used to be, with Scything Talons, you made too few attacks to do anything. However, with -1AP Scything Talons, that math is a little different than before! It becomes dangerous to toss a throwaway squad of guardsmen at it.
