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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.

I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.

that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.

I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.

that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.

Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.

I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.

that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.

Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.

yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.

I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.

that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.

Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.

yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.

BrianDavion wrote:

yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

Have you got any statistics about more people liking subfactions than entire xenos races? Or have you drank from Xenomancer's coolaid and begun extemporising things on the spot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.

I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.

that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.

Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.

yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.

*shrugs* keep in mind I'd have been perfectly happy without them the codex supplements could have been pure fluff and I'd have bought them problem is the 6th edition supplements proved to GW that without "awesome advantagous rules" supplements are a hard sell.

BrianDavion wrote:
problem is the 6th edition supplements proved to GW that without "awesome advantagous rules" supplements are a hard sell.

I don't know about that. People love flexibility and things that cater to their play style. You could knock out most of the super docs and people would still be using those books.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.

I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.

that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.

Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.

yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.

*shrugs* keep in mind I'd have been perfectly happy without them the codex supplements could have been pure fluff and I'd have bought them problem is the 6th edition supplements proved to GW that without "awesome advantagous rules" supplements are a hard sell.

And you already know I'm for elimination of Supplements and consolidation of the Angels into Codex Marines and Death Guard + Thousand Sons into Codex Legions.

At the time I was excited for a separate Death Guard codex! You might even remember me saying that, while handled poorly, it had neat ideas. I came to the realization that trying these things is a terrible idea. If GW wants to slowly add missions and occasional units with campaigns, I'm a-okay with that. HOWEVER when we only have crunch discussions over missions or campaign rules or fluff, you know why: GW introduces a bunch of garbage at once as per usual.

BrianDavion wrote:


yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

I think it's a lot less that people "really like marines", and more that "everyone has marines, and they're easy to field."

I'm not a huge fan of marines. However I have quite a few due to the fact that all the starters including them. When I was much younger, back in 3rd, I even had Dark Angels as my primary army. So I've got a decent contingent of marines laying around from over a decade ago.

I've acquired Primaris via the new starters, which are still marines. I've even gotten two kits of primaris units. Despite not being hugely into marines, I have enough of them laying around - and they're cheap enough to acquire - that I can throw together a fieldable force on a whim, and continue to play while I work on other projects.

I imagine plenty of other people are in the same boat as me. Especially people who play Xenos, but find their armies all but unusable in the current version of the game. So when marines suddenly get a newer, cheaper, immensely powerful codex.. They can continue to suffer with their NPC race, or just break out the old marines they have laying around and get protagonist level rules.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
I'm talking about *new* model lines, you know, like the support marines have been getting for almost a year on end now.

Nids don't need it; their plastics look amazing. For Space Marines it was desperately needed. Those old stumpy models were terrible. I always laughed when I looked at them. It really never looked like there could be a man in that armor (maybe a horribly deformed man), but the new Primaris range totally does and I like the new models 1,000% better than the old ones. I get how people are salty over feeling like they need to buy a whole new army to keep up with the latest hotness, but let's be fair: the Primaris models are stunning. Maybe that takes some of the salt out of the wound, I dunno.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The problem isn't super doctrines as a concept, it's that some super doctrines are more super than others. The BT one is perfectly fine considering how situational and marginal it is. The Iron Hands one... Not so much.

IMO biggest mistake is that traits in general are free which creates an impossible task of balance. Compare a CSM, one with Word Bearers and the other with Alpha Legion - same effective model cost yet completely different tabletop efficiency... this goes for every codex.

Somewhere along the way in wanting to have introducing rules to represent fluff they've made a mess that they can't get out of now until the next reboot.

Yes, but the door swings both ways. WB get phenomenal Possessed whereas AL do not. WB might be less durable overall, but they have perks that help someone interested in playing a certain way that fits the scope of their legion.

In that sense it's fine for AL to be "better" without needing to make the rest of WB better. Someone can run a WB Vanguard, IW Spearhead, and AL Battalion where they all have something strong to offer.

You realise, that the AL movement shenanigans improve the possesed quite a lot more, right?

BrianDavion wrote:

yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

There's more than a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, IMO. Are Space Marines the focus because they're popular or are they popular because they're the focus? I imagine it's a bit of both. The books and model releases and inclusion in stuff like PA is certainly not insignificant marketing for a faction.
The fiction/model/rules support is so overwhelmingly imperium-alligned, and Space Marine focused even within that, that it gets...boring? to play/be a fan of a xenos army. If there's nothing nothing new for years you're gonna shed fans...and without anything to drive exposure few folks are going to pick it up.

Like, it'll have nearly been two years since Tau have been involved in something by the time of their PA book (except "The Eight", I guess). To say nothing of a new model. And Tau certainly aren't a particularly bad example of neglect. This is a faction that has a pretty easy perspective to use in fluff/books compared with some factions too (like it's hard to have nids or orks have perspective/protagonist characters).

I think it'd be extremely good for the game to spread the development around a bit more.

 morganfreeman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

I think it's a lot less that people "really like marines", and more that "everyone has marines, and they're easy to field."

I'm not a huge fan of marines. However I have quite a few due to the fact that all the starters including them. When I was much younger, back in 3rd, I even had Dark Angels as my primary army. So I've got a decent contingent of marines laying around from over a decade ago.

I've acquired Primaris via the new starters, which are still marines. I've even gotten two kits of primaris units. Despite not being hugely into marines, I have enough of them laying around - and they're cheap enough to acquire - that I can throw together a fieldable force on a whim, and continue to play while I work on other projects.

I imagine plenty of other people are in the same boat as me. Especially people who play Xenos, but find their armies all but unusable in the current version of the game. So when marines suddenly get a newer, cheaper, immensely powerful codex.. They can continue to suffer with their NPC race, or just break out the old marines they have laying around and get protagonist level rules.

You know I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Morgan Freeman on this matter. Marines are every where and very useful now, so of course you'll see them every where. I know for my not alien factions I have a deal of work to do with some of them, so marines end up the easiest to field, model and put out there if for no other reasons than you just end up with a ton of them from the years of playing as well they tend to be solid and easy to use even if not always the best faction. Only makes sense they would be all over once they are top tier. Other factions need more thought into the army set up, some can be pretty expensive to properly build up and aren't as forgiving as Marines tend to be. I don't think that means everyone loves Marines, but most don't want to feel they took a worse army just for feels.

rbstr wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

There's more than a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, IMO. Are Space Marines the focus because they're popular or are they popular because they're the focus? I imagine it's a bit of both. The books and model releases and inclusion in stuff like PA is certainly not insignificant marketing for a faction.
The fiction/model/rules support is so overwhelmingly imperium-alligned, and Space Marine focused even within that, that it gets...boring? to play/be a fan of a xenos army. If there's nothing nothing new for years you're gonna shed fans...and without anything to drive exposure few folks are going to pick it up.

Like, it'll have nearly been two years since Tau have been involved in something by the time of their PA book (except "The Eight", I guess). To say nothing of a new model. And Tau certainly aren't a particularly bad example of neglect. This is a faction that has a pretty easy perspective to use in fluff/books compared with some factions too (like it's hard to have nids or orks have perspective/protagonist characters).

I think it'd be extremely good for the game to spread the development around a bit more.

it could, on the other hand, alien races are in a bit of a weird spot, because the more GW expands on them the less "alien" they are and the more they risk humanizing them to the point where they're just humans with ptointy ears/green skin/ blue skin/ 6 limbs etc. case in point, necrons where before 5th edition the "faceless hoard" mysterious and lethal etc. and some folks liked that about them. when GW did ther 5th edition codex that gave them more character it appealed to some but others hated it. For the record I like the change. but I'm a biig proponent of GW giving us the option to really make our minis "your guys". When an army has only one valid canon colour scheme it's a mark against it IMHO.

BrianDavion wrote:

rbstr wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

There's more than a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, IMO. Are Space Marines the focus because they're popular or are they popular because they're the focus? I imagine it's a bit of both. The books and model releases and inclusion in stuff like PA is certainly not insignificant marketing for a faction.
The fiction/model/rules support is so overwhelmingly imperium-alligned, and Space Marine focused even within that, that it gets...boring? to play/be a fan of a xenos army. If there's nothing nothing new for years you're gonna shed fans...and without anything to drive exposure few folks are going to pick it up.

Like, it'll have nearly been two years since Tau have been involved in something by the time of their PA book (except "The Eight", I guess). To say nothing of a new model. And Tau certainly aren't a particularly bad example of neglect. This is a faction that has a pretty easy perspective to use in fluff/books compared with some factions too (like it's hard to have nids or orks have perspective/protagonist characters).

I think it'd be extremely good for the game to spread the development around a bit more.

it could, on the other hand, alien races are in a bit of a weird spot, because the more GW expands on them the less "alien" they are and the more they risk humanizing them to the point where they're just humans with ptointy ears/green skin/ blue skin/ 6 limbs etc. case in point, necrons where before 5th edition the "faceless hoard" mysterious and lethal etc. and some folks liked that about them. when GW did ther 5th edition codex that gave them more character it appealed to some but others hated it. For the record I like the change. but I'm a biig proponent of GW giving us the option to really make our minis "your guys". When an army has only one valid canon colour scheme it's a mark against it IMHO.

That was Matt Ward doing Matt Ward things.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.

I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.

that fact is, like it or not (it's pretty clear eonfuzz doesn't like it) the various marine subfactions are more developed then many of the factions in 40k. and many MANY people like 40k because of those subfactions.

Thanks for highlighting how 40k needs to focus on things other than marines.
You're doing the arguments for me, keep it up Brian.

yeah except you missed the second part of my argument. people LIKE these subfactions. so yes they're going to get some attention. when there are more fans of "chapter X" then an entire xenos race, you can't expect them not to cater to their fans.

Citation for this drivel needed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.

Where in white scar super doctrine is so encouraging the fluffy rhino mounted tactical squads that form majority of white scars?

Where in super doctrines for BA makes it useful to field devastators? You know those squads blood angels use.

People use fluff term to justify more free rules even when it goes AGAINST the fluff.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
However there comes a point where adding too much flavor affects balance too much. YEAH Super Doctrines are fluffy, but as game mechanics they should absolutely not exist.

Where in white scar super doctrine is so encouraging the fluffy rhino mounted tactical squads that form majority of white scars?

Where in super doctrines for BA makes it useful to field devastators? You know those squads blood angels use.

People use fluff term to justify more free rules even when it goes AGAINST the fluff.

You realize that’s what the Tactical and Devastator Doctrine are for respectively, right? They do the normal codex bits then relish in the part they like.

Not Online!!! wrote:

You realise, that the AL movement shenanigans improve the possesed quite a lot more, right?

You're missing the broader point.

There is only one way to make Possessed -- D2, +1A, with the ability to force through a buff spell / warp time (this is SSR tier gak right here), and a character that prevents fallback (w/o CP no less) -- and that's Word Bearers.

And the broader point being that it's ok for Legions / Sects / etc to focus on particular units to the "detriment" of other units, because it is fluffy and useful. If you need that ultimate advantage until CSM get super doctrines (if they ever do) then souping the Legions together for their disparate parts isn't a bad thing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You're missing the broader point.

There is only one way to make Possessed -- D2, +1A, with the ability to force through a buff spell / warp time (this is SSR tier gak right here), and a character that prevents fallback (w/o CP no less) -- and that's Word Bearers.

I'll still take AL for this, all of that means crap if you can't get the unit into melee, or protect it. Running a squad of Possessed behind a Disco Lord who's -4 to be hit and using Conceal to prevent shooting at the Possessed is fairly amazing.

How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.

Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)


Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.

This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.

So they get 60 shots, if you field a full 20-man squad. No particular protection outside being T4 3+, but we'll assume you get first turn.

You waltz them up 6", hopefully getting your opponent's juicy target in range, and lay down 60 shots. Hitting on 2s (if you managed to cast Prescience), rerolling 1s (with a Lord), at S5 +1 to-wound, AP0 (but Ignores Cover) and 2 damage a pop.

That's...

58.33 hits
48.61 wounds against a T4 target
16.20 unsaved if they have a 3+
So that's 275 points of Intercessors, if you split fire well. You can do it again with Endless Cacophony, though. Oh-and this assumes the Intercessors aren't Iron Hands or something.

Against a Knight, you're looking at...

58.33 hits
29.16 wounds
9.72 unsaved (half if Armor of the Sainted Ion)
19.44 damage
Absolutely REQUIRES Endless Cacophony to bring down. Also requires you to either seize the initiative or for your opponent to foolishly deploy their Knight at the edge of their DZ, since they only have a 30" threat range. (Technically 30+d6 inches, but that requires advancing and makes you a LOT less accurate.)

Bearing in mind, this costs a minimum of 552 points, assuming the Lord and Sorcerer are pretty much naked. And is attached to T4 3+ W1 bodies.

It's powerful-but it's very much a glass cannon. I mean, hell, they can kill 32 Intercessors without defensive buffs in a turn, but what do 30 Intercessors do to them?

60 (or as much as 80, if you pop the Rapid Fire strat) shots
53.33 hits on 3+ rerolling
31.11 wounds at 4+ rerolling 1s
15.56 dead Noise Marines

Now, they DO get to fire when they die (assuming they're in range, which is NOT a guarantee since the Intercessors outrange them) but they would get absolutely CRIPPLED by the people they can kill.

Edit: Also, I would hope that a 380 point unit could do more damage than 6 Wounds to some Intercessors, considering their cost.

Pepperidge Farm remembers when this thread was actually about Nids.

Anecdotally (maybe I'm playing the victim here), Nids have had the biggest drop in presence on forums in 8th. Even in the doldrums of 7th, you had the Loyal Remnant who muddled through and put up with the crap rules. It seems like we're gone in 8th. Case in point, this thread (like every thread on Dakka, to be fair) has turned into a discussion of Primaris vs. the Field.

Anyway, not really sure what my point is. Maybe just that these new rules are so underwhelming that we can't even get 4 pages of a thread out of them, and you can see that overall in Nids rules with the big dropoff in players/discussion.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.

Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)


Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.

This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.

Ok, Xeno...

 Xenomancers wrote:
How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.

Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)


Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.

This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.

This is actually a welcome stratagem for me, because it doesn't mean I face only obliterators and I get to shoot the big giant noise marine blob if I go first. And we're talking AP0 here, so a knight hunkered down -- 120 * .777 * .5 * .167 * 2 = 16 damage. 4 CP and over 400 points with Lord is not a terribly small investment to not kill a knight.

And we're talking about 24" guns, which are pretty easy to avoid...

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Pepperidge Farm remembers when this thread was actually about Nids.

Anecdotally (maybe I'm playing the victim here), Nids have had the biggest drop in presence on forums in 8th. Even in the doldrums of 7th, you had the Loyal Remnant who muddled through and put up with the crap rules. It seems like we're gone in 8th. Case in point, this thread (like every thread on Dakka, to be fair) has turned into a discussion of Primaris vs. the Field.

Anyway, not really sure what my point is. Maybe just that these new rules are so underwhelming that we can't even get 4 pages of a thread out of them, and you can see that overall in Nids rules with the big dropoff in players/discussion.

Makes sense. Tyranids are one of the most CC-focused armies out there in an edition where shooting is king. Even Orks, the other major CC army, have been forced to transform into a gunline army in 8th to stay competitive. Other advantages that 'Nids used to have (move fast, reduced difficult terrain penalties, ignore most morale effects) have been written into the main game such that most armies now have essentially the same advantages, so you don't even get to be special in those ways, either.

It's a real shame.

Tbh tyranids are still a powerful army on my meta. Are you all playing it tournaments everyday ? Compared to my friends TS / GK / DG / necrons they are quite good I think.
And 8th actually rewards good assault, not shooting.

Sure, Nids are powerful if you take a zillion Genestealers and The Swarmlord, backed up by Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons. Otherwise they're pretty meh.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.

Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)


Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.

This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.

You can scout move them and warp time them. 36 to

This is actually a welcome stratagem for me, because it doesn't mean I face only obliterators and I get to shoot the big giant noise marine blob if I go first. And we're talking AP0 here, so a knight hunkered down -- 120 * .777 * .5 * .167 * 2 = 16 damage. 4 CP and over 400 points with Lord is not a terribly small investment to not kill a knight.

And we're talking about 24" guns, which are pretty easy to avoid...

Ehhh - they are also assault weapons so you can advance if you are out of range. Not easy to avoid them really without a massive LOS blocker. Plus there is warp time. Killing a knight on average with a 400 point unit or less is literally insane. When you are doing it with anti infantry weapons which also kill 36 intercessors or like 70 infantry squads. It's just dumb by any messsure of balance. The units damage is literally buffed by 1000%. 20 noise marines follow by oblits dropping in...is going to be auto win. Esp with 2 tzangor bombs. cry cry. Choas sucks. lol. FYI. This is gonna be a tournament winner with both noise marines and oblitz being dropped in points and this 1 CP stratagem trippling noise marine damage against t8.


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Pointed Stick wrote:
Sure, Nids are powerful if you take a zillion Genestealers and The Swarmlord, backed up by Hive Guard with Impaler Cannons. Otherwise they're pretty meh.

IMO geenstellers are garbage.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.

Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)


Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.

This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.

You can scout move them and warp time them. 36 to

This is actually a welcome stratagem for me, because it doesn't mean I face only obliterators and I get to shoot the big giant noise marine blob if I go first. And we're talking AP0 here, so a knight hunkered down -- 120 * .777 * .5 * .167 * 2 = 16 damage. 4 CP and over 400 points with Lord is not a terribly small investment to not kill a knight.

And we're talking about 24" guns, which are pretty easy to avoid...

Ehhh - they are also assault weapons so you can advance if you are out of range. Not easy to avoid them really without a massive LOS blocker. Plus there is warp time. Killing a knight on average with a 400 point unit or less is literally insane. When you are doing it with anti infantry weapons which also kill 36 intercessors or like 70 infantry squads. It's just dumb by any messsure of balance. The units damage is literally buffed by 1000%. 20 noise marines follow by oblits dropping in...is going to be auto win. Esp with 2 tzangor bombs. cry cry. Choas sucks. lol. FYI. This is gonna be a tournament winner with both noise marines and oblitz being dropped in points.

380+98>400.

Even without accounting for the Lord, they're over 400 points.

And if they need to advance, they only score 46.67 hits with a Lord, 23.33 wounds, 7.78 wounds, and 15.56 damage. So they CAN kill a Knight... But the Knight has a decent chance of living. About 30%. Assuming no Armor Of The Sainted Ion. Not to mention, you're relying on two separate psychic powers to go off. And first turn.