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 Xenomancers wrote:
Ehhh - they are also assault weapons so you can advance if you are out of range. Not easy to avoid them really without a massive LOS blocker. Plus there is warp time. Killing a knight on average with a 400 point unit or less is literally insane. When you are doing it with anti infantry weapons which also kill 36 intercessors or like 70 infantry squads. It's just dumb by any messsure of balance. The units damage is literally buffed by 1000%. 20 noise marines follow by oblits dropping in...is going to be auto win. Esp with 2 tzangor bombs. cry cry. Choas sucks. lol. FYI. This is gonna be a tournament winner with both noise marines and oblitz being dropped in points and this 1 CP stratagem trippling noise marine damage against t8.

Ok, Xeno...

lol

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How about this new super balanced noise marine stratagem. +1 str and +1 damage for 1 CP...How can GW be this niave. CSM is all about taking a unit and super charging it. shoot twice +1 to wound for 3 CP - now +1 to str and damage too for +1 cp? 4 CP to shoot 120 shots with 2 damage ignoring cover likely hitting and wounding all infantry on 2's? Wow...that only kills 578 (34 intercessors) points worth of primaris marines in 1 turn. Or basically any armies entire allotment of infantry.

Does 38 wounds to a knight. (up to 1000 points of damage vs FW knights)
Outright kills 2 repulsor executioners (660 points)


Without buffs this unit kills 3 primaris marines. LOL.
or does 2 wounds to a repulsor.

This is more a complaint about the nature of stratagems than this specific stratagem in particular. However. How exactly can the rules writters be this stupid? Stratagems should not stack. You can't possibly balance the game with this kind of gak being allowed.

Ok, Xeno...

It might not be the way you want to play but it's broken. It's going to be a meta changer. Immediately.

Also, you're stuck being Emperor's Children. Who have, while not THE WORST Legion Trait, a pretty damn bad one.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, you're stuck being Emperor's Children. Who have, while not THE WORST Legion Trait, a pretty damn bad one.

they have the most schizophrenic one.

Atleast WB kinda woulda have made sense.
If it weren't a free upgrade for marines......

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, you're stuck being Emperor's Children. Who have, while not THE WORST Legion Trait, a pretty damn bad one.

Only with that one unit you are restricted. Their trait is the stratagem.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It might not be the way you want to play but it's broken. It's going to be a meta changer. Immediately.

I'm not lacking in Noise Marines or sonic weaponry models, believe me.

You're becoming the old man yelling at clouds Xeno.

But we'll check back in a month, see if all the lawns in the neighborhood have been torn up by these Noise Marine hooligans you're sure are coming to make a mockery of the HOA.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, you're stuck being Emperor's Children. Who have, while not THE WORST Legion Trait, a pretty damn bad one.

Only with that one unit you are restricted. Their trait is the stratagem.

last time i checked an orkboy is 7pts and stratagems ain't free pal.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It might not be the way you want to play but it's broken. It's going to be a meta changer. Immediately.

I'm not lacking in Noise Marines or sonic weaponry models, believe me.

You're becoming the old man yelling at clouds Xeno.

But we'll check back in a month, see if all the lawns in the neighborhood have been torn up by these Noise Marine hooligans you're sure are coming to make a mockery of the HOA.

Just demonstrated with average math this unit can kill 36 intercessors / a knight (pretty close to killing 2 knights)/ 2 repulsor executioners. You automatically lose going second against this unit. It's actually worse than nu marines. FYI - new marines likely aren't killing this much stuff with their entire army. Turn 1. 20 Noise marines is only 340 points.

33 Intercessors. Your math is wrong.

20 Noise Marines with SONIC BLASTERS are 380 currently. And Sorcerers and Lords cost points too.

 JNAProductions wrote:
33 Intercessors. Your math is wrong.

20 Noise Marines with SONIC BLASTERS are 380 currently. And Sorcerers and Lords cost points too.

Did sonic blaster go up in points? Saw that noise marines dropped 2 points.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
33 Intercessors. Your math is wrong.

20 Noise Marines with SONIC BLASTERS are 380 currently. And Sorcerers and Lords cost points too.

Yeah that was my bad - i was doing 88% wounds not 84% for wounding on 2's.

So uh how about those Nids?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
33 Intercessors. Your math is wrong.

20 Noise Marines with SONIC BLASTERS are 380 currently. And Sorcerers and Lords cost points too.

Did sonic blaster go up in points? Saw that noise marines dropped 2 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
33 Intercessors. Your math is wrong.

20 Noise Marines with SONIC BLASTERS are 380 currently. And Sorcerers and Lords cost points too.

Yeah that was my bad - i was doing 88% wounds not 84% for wounding on 2's.

I'm going off current points values, as per Battlescribe. (I do not trust my Codex to be right anymore.) If that's inaccurate and they are 17 PPM, they're still over 400 points with Prescience and Warptime, since the Sorcerer is more than 60 points.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It might not be the way you want to play but it's broken. It's going to be a meta changer. Immediately.

People said that about the stupid chaincannon and got mad that the kit didn't have like all chaincannons and we don't see the damn things ever.

Pointed Stick wrote:
So uh how about those Nids?

Dont worry, Xeno will find something relating to their changes to go on a bender about soon.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did sonic blaster go up in points? Saw that noise marines dropped 2 points.

Based on current points leaks 20 man Noise Marines, 20x Sonic Blasters will be 340 points.

Also, running the math, 120 shots, hitting on a 2+, re-rolling 1s to hit, wounding on a 4+, doing D2/shot ends up with a little over 16 unsaved wounds. So, don't think you're getting 2 Knights out of that, on a good day with some bad rolls from your opponent you might get 1.

I don't think you're getting 33 Intercessors either, but it's not that far off what you'd actually get.

But please continue to blow it out of proportion, as usual, Chaos is resigned to being the bogeyman used to distract from nu-Marines absurdity.

With this "psychic awakening" series, would it not have been better to do some rules for the involved sides, but kept the content mostly on narrative missions and rules that serve those missions?

Also, it would have been even more enticing if they added missions for Kill Team and Apocalypse. Taking Blood of Baal, its just 6 pages of Baal missions and even combined with the 9 Tyranid pages - thats not even half the page count of the Blood Angel stuff(whether its recycled material or not).

That said, page count is not always an indication of quality. It could be 40 pages of crap, 9 pages of silver and 6 of gold.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
20 Noise Marines with SONIC BLASTERS are 380 currently. And Sorcerers and Lords cost points too.

Did sonic blaster go up in points? Saw that noise marines dropped 2 points.

Based on current points leaks 20 man Noise Marines, 20x Sonic Blasters will be 340 points.

Also, running the math, 120 shots, hitting on a 2+, re-rolling 1s to hit, wounding on a 4+, doing D2/shot ends up with a little over 16 unsaved wounds. So, don't think you're getting 2 Knights out of that, on a good day with some bad rolls from your opponent you might get 1.

I don't think you're getting 33 Intercessors either, but it's not that far off what you'd actually get.

But please continue to blow it out of proportion, as usual, Chaos is resigned to being the bogeyman used to distract from nu-Marines absurdity.

Endless Cacophony lets you shoot twice for 2 CP.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Endless Cacophony lets you shoot twice for 2 CP.

Yes, that's why 20 guys shooting 3 shots apiece have 120 shots, not 60...

I posted the math on Intercessors earlier. You get about 33, if you split fire well.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I posted the math on Intercessors earlier. You get about 33, if you split fire well.

I ended up with 27, and yes, your split fire would have to be prescient, to say the least. I assume the difference is counting the Remnant in there.

So, currently, the Noise Marine investment being discussed involves the following:
20 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters - 340 points
1 Slaaneshi Sorcerer - 80 points
1 Chaos Lord - 74 points

Veterans of the Long War - 1 CP
Endless Cacophany - 2 CP
Excruciating Frequencies - 1 CP
Relics of Chaos - 1 CP

We'll assume you got Prescience off without having to burn a CP on a re-roll. So, basically, 500 points and 5 CP, maybe we should have some sort of challenge where every army can show up with 'give me your best 500 point/5 CP combo' and we can compare and contrast?

Because, to be honest, for 500 points and 5 CP, I expect some fething performance.

60 shots in one volley
175/3 or 58.33 hits
875/18 or 48.61 wounds
875/54 or 16.20 unsaved

I did round up when I should've rounded down, but it's 32.41 dead Intercessors.

Edit: But your main point (that 500 odd points and 4+ CP should wreck face) I agree with.

The thing I'm looking forward to most in PA3 with my nids is having my 3 toxicrenes finally get to use their tentacles to restrain targets. Other than that, suicide gants with the hydra psychic power could be hilarious.

You guys thinking that Nids get nothing out of this are really blind. Like crazy blind. I picked up my book yesterday, and if you take 5 minutes to look at some of the craziness this book offers and the new lease on life it gives to a bunch of units... you'd realize there's some FIENDISHLY good stuff in here.

#1 - Mawlocs. +2 to their roll for mortal wounds means that they never fail to deal at least 1 mortal wound (roll of 1), sometimes deal d3 mortal wounds (2-3), and most frequently will deal straight 3 (4+). That's to EACH unit within 2" of them when they pop up. You hit 3 units with that, you're looking at an average of 7 mortal wounds dealt for 104 points. Rock-solid. Even very smart opponents will generally get 2 units hit by this, and may the Emperor protect unwise opponents that get 4 or more units hit.

#2 - Being able to give -1AP to scything talons, even if we don't know whether or not it applies to also the big scything talons, is a big deal. Being able to give those an extra -1AP? Also a big deal. Being able to potentially give an EXTRA -1AP on top of that? MASSIVELY BIG DEAL! You know who makes a lot of quality Scything Talon attacks (even just basic ones)? Raveners supported by the Red Terror. And guess what; that all deep strikes natively AND there's ways to buff deep strike & charge in this supplement. (EDIT: 5 attacks per Ravener * 9 Raveners, hitting on 2+'s, rerolling 1's).

#3 - 6 Biovores + synapse. There's an adaptation that allows you to reroll one failed hit roll per unit's attack. Well, three squads of 2x Biovores will hugely benefit from this, such that you should hit with 4 or 5 Biovore shots. That's roughly 5 Mortal Wounds per turn anywhere on the table (okay, within 48", whatever).

#4 - Give your opponent's army -1 to hit army-wide. Kill something small with a huge unit of Hormagaunts, use "Savage Distraction", then use things like Adrenaline Surge and/or "Overrun" to totally surround your opponent's army now they either need to bunch up even tighter (possibly impossibly tight), or suffer -1 to hit against your whole army. Stack with Malanthrope or something to make it -2 to hit against your whole army.


Seriously, there's some beastly things here if you can use your imagination.

 Yarium wrote:
You guys thinking that Nids get nothing out of this are really blind. Like crazy blind. I picked up my book yesterday, and if you take 5 minutes to look at some of the craziness this book offers and the new lease on life it gives to a bunch of units... you'd realize there's some FIENDISHLY good stuff in here.

#1 - Mawlocs. +2 to their roll for mortal wounds means that they never fail to deal at least 1 mortal wound (roll of 1), sometimes deal d3 mortal wounds (2-3), and most frequently will deal straight 3 (4+). That's to EACH unit within 2" of them when they pop up. You hit 3 units with that, you're looking at an average of 7 mortal wounds dealt for 104 points. Rock-solid. Even very smart opponents will generally get 2 units hit by this, and may the Emperor protect unwise opponents that get 4 or more units hit.

#2 - Being able to give -1AP to scything talons, even if we don't know whether or not it applies to also the big scything talons, is a big deal. Being able to give those an extra -1AP? Also a big deal. Being able to potentially give an EXTRA -1AP on top of that? MASSIVELY BIG DEAL! You know who makes a lot of quality Scything Talon attacks (even just basic ones)? Raveners supported by the Red Terror. And guess what; that all deep strikes natively AND there's ways to buff deep strike & charge in this supplement. (EDIT: 5 attacks per Ravener * 9 Raveners, hitting on 2+'s, rerolling 1's).

#3 - 6 Biovores + synapse. There's an adaptation that allows you to reroll one failed hit roll per unit's attack. Well, three squads of 2x Biovores will hugely benefit from this, such that you should hit with 4 or 5 Biovore shots. That's roughly 5 Mortal Wounds per turn anywhere on the table (okay, within 48", whatever).

#4 - Give your opponent's army -1 to hit army-wide. Kill something small with a huge unit of Hormagaunts, use "Savage Distraction", then use things like Adrenaline Surge and/or "Overrun" to totally surround your opponent's army now they either need to bunch up even tighter (possibly impossibly tight), or suffer -1 to hit against your whole army. Stack with Malanthrope or something to make it -2 to hit against your whole army.


Seriously, there's some beastly things here if you can use your imagination.

1# Thats certainly cool, but smart players will make sure that they don't hit anything beyond chaff. And then there's the increadibly stupid bit of rules writting that means Space Marine Infiltrators with visors now somehow stop giant monsters from tunneling underneath them because reasons.

2# That is very cool, I have long been toying with the idea of running 27 Ravenors beacuse everyone else is doing Genestealers (who would also benefit from this trait as they can take Scything Talons for free), the fact that they've dropped 5ppm in CA will really help them as well. Still extremely fragile though. However, the problem with the buffs to charging is that unless I've missed a couple things stacking, you'll stil at best be looking at an 8" charge rolling 3D6 and discarding the lowest, not terrible but not amazing either, and in Kraken with the Swarmlord you could already get 2 squads to move on average 22-24" across the board and then charge turn 1.

3# You know whats better, doing this with Kronos. The thing with Biovores is that they're already good, the much needed points drop in CA is the real boost for them. Hitting the target and doing mortal wounds is cool, missing the target and move blocking them with Spore Mines is also coool, using said spore mines for the Kronos stratagem is also very cool. Biovores are an interesting unit because they're good regardless of whether they hit or not, it's just a shame they have overly expensive failcast models.

4# Never going to happen. The Malenthrope will never keep up with the Hormagaunts to give them the -2, and why would you want a Malenthrope that far forward anyway? More importantly, my Drukhari list with 6 Venoms and 30 Mandrakes in Raiders can clear 40 Genestealers a turn without breaking a sweat, I could do worse to Hormagaunts even with the -1, especially since Dark Technomancers is now a thing, so good luck to that.

Point is, there's good stuff in there. Interesting stuff. Broken? Likely not, because I don't like broken anyways. But certainly there are some real combos here. Multiple combos. And I'm not even a good player. If I can figure out things here, that mean's there's some cool things that are possible through this. There's enough things that make you go "well, maybe that can be part of a plan" to suggest that at least 1 of those will be strong enough to be part of a competitive Tyranid plan. And for metas that are less than "we only play with the top lists of SoCal Open", you probably can do really well as Tyranids with some of these.

Savage Distraction gives the unit an aura that debuffs enemy units within 6" of the distracting unit and gives them -1 to hit not only against hormagaunts, but against everything on the table.

That penalty will stack with shrouding spores protecting the main Nid body.

Tricky, but if done well, it will throw a massive wrench into the enemy's shooting phase.

 Imateria wrote:
However, the problem with the buffs to charging is that unless I've missed a couple things stacking, you'll stil at best be looking at an 8" charge rolling 3D6 and discarding the lowest, not terrible but not amazing either

3D6 drop lowest has a 68% chance of getting an 8+. We also have several ways to add an extra D6 to the roll and pick lowest, so as far as I can tell those should stack (eg Hive Instinct and Hunter's Drive).

You can also throw in a Lictor with its new stratagem to ignore overwatch if you so desire.

That's also without including a CP reroll if you have to, right?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's also without including a CP reroll if you have to, right?

That's correct.

I also forgot that we have a couple of ways to re-roll the dice entirely, eg Synaptic Lure. So throw that in on top of a 3D6-drop-one and you've got a 90% chance of making the charge, for a very modest cost of a psychic power and a CP at most.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It might not be the way you want to play but it's broken. It's going to be a meta changer. Immediately.

People said that about the stupid chaincannon and got mad that the kit didn't have like all chaincannons and we don't see the damn things ever.

IDK why they thought that. It's a heavy weapon and it's expensive AND it comes in limited supply. The reason this noise marine stratagem is busted is it affects 20 man units. D-1 to D2 is 100% damage increase and if the str 5 is a break point...like at t4 and t8 it is another huge break point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I posted the math on Intercessors earlier. You get about 33, if you split fire well.

I ended up with 27, and yes, your split fire would have to be prescient, to say the least. I assume the difference is counting the Remnant in there.

So, currently, the Noise Marine investment being discussed involves the following:
20 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters - 340 points
1 Slaaneshi Sorcerer - 80 points
1 Chaos Lord - 74 points

Veterans of the Long War - 1 CP
Endless Cacophany - 2 CP
Excruciating Frequencies - 1 CP
Relics of Chaos - 1 CP

We'll assume you got Prescience off without having to burn a CP on a re-roll. So, basically, 500 points and 5 CP, maybe we should have some sort of challenge where every army can show up with 'give me your best 500 point/5 CP combo' and we can compare and contrast?

Because, to be honest, for 500 points and 5 CP, I expect some fething performance.

How many knights should you realistically be able to kill in a turn. They have 4 knights at 2000 points. If they are losing a knight per turn on average from 500 points of your army that is a dedicated anti infantry unit. How is that player supposed to have any chance? How is any army supposed to have a chance if you have a unit like this which can literally kill anything by putting 50ish wounds on something t8 with 2 damage each? Also - what relic are you talking about I calculate 33 intercessor kills with just 4cp and presence? And - would you ever take a choas army without a sorcerer? It is not an expenditure - in fact - having an efficient unit for that sorcerer to buff is a giant benefit to the sorcerer and the lord should be buffing as many units as he can.

Also forgive me for slightly derailing here. This is coming from new PA rules. Nids would throw away literally every other change they got for a single stratagem this good.