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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Daedalus81 wrote:

1 CP stratagem for Primes and Warriors to take -1D during shooting phase.


 Imateria wrote:

Their Pyschic power lets you reroll hits against a selected unit for Jormungandr units that have been set up on the table that turn.


Noice! Both of those are fantastic for me. I'll wait to see if these show up in CA and then figure out what method I'll use to get my hands on those. I'd rather not buy the PA book just for those.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Heres the thing. I say this as a marine player too. The super support characters are too much. Those warlord traits are way better than anything nids got.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/02 20:58:00


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Exocrine being able to move and count stationary is nice, but really is only good when you're in a bad spot. So, not bad, but not that great. It's a nice tool when you need it, but not a reason in and of itself to bring Exocrines. The big money is stacking benefits for Scything Talons and the like, and then charging out of deep strike. Some of the new stratagems allow easy charge-from-deepstrike, especially when using something like a Trygon Prime.

I also think people are seriously reading the 6+ FNP adaptation wrong. It's saying that you don't get it if you didn't move the previous movement phase, or during the first battle round. This means if your opponent goes first, since there's no previous battle round, you get 6+++. Technically, as written, if you go first you get it even if you DID move during your first turn during your opponent's first turn. This makes it very tempting; since it's the best part of Hive Fleet Leviathan PLUS some additional bonus (and you don't need a babysitter for the model).

I think this book could make Gargoyles very much worth taking, which sucks as I own ZERO of these:
1. Membrous Membranes + Blinding Venom means these guys will be -1 to hit in CC always, and potentially -2 to hit if they kill just 1 model while in combat.
2. Feeding Frenzy means that Gargoyles that make a charge (again, deep strike plus new methods of being able to get there from deep strike) will bad-touch so many units with a 6" pile in + 3" consolidate.

Not saying any of these things are busted, but these are real things to consider when formulating your Nid battle plan. We have some options to do things we couldn't do before, and that's really worth a lot more to a codex than "lul, I just kill all the things, hey why am i dead?"

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Pack Hunters and bio-metallic cysts meanwhile would make gaunts and warriors pretty solid at killing marines in melee.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Eldarain wrote:
The faction is riddled with garbage like that. I don't understand how the same people can supercharge Marines but include layers of conditions for Xenos rules (Leviathan trait turns off if Catalyst is on a unit, the horror of a 5++ and a 6++ on a unit!)
The bigger question is why does this continue to surprise people? It's been this way for 20 years. The same goofballs who ruined 6th and 7th edition are the same guys on the 8th edition team. Why would you expect them to suddenly realize their mistakes? The entire company culture is backward anyways since from what they seem to indicate (they never specifically state this but the way they talk seems to lean towards it being true), models are designed without any input or discussion with the design team, and then thrown to the design team to "make them fit". So you could have the model team making some kind of oddball garbage like oh let's say a derpy looking hovertank because it's "totes kewl", without knowing or caring how it might fit into the game, and then it's on the design team to shoehorn it in.

On top of that, it's been clear for a long time that the only armies the current team are really interested in exploring is Imperium. Nearly all of them, from what I can recall, have various Imperium armies and while they certainly have others they collect, none of them seem to really appeal to them more than kewl Space Marines. So naturally, they spend more than the token effort on Imperium (Marines in particular) and the rest just kind of get an "Oh this sounds right" sort of throwing gak together to get it done.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Generally someone learns from mistakes. You'd very much expect someone who made a mistake making 6th to not do that in 7th and 8th.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





pm713 wrote:
Generally someone learns from mistakes. You'd very much expect someone who made a mistake making 6th to not do that in 7th and 8th.


Oh GW did learn, they hired a competent enough PR team.
And look, it worked, all the custommers finnally beeing fed up in 7th came back and even more.

I just think it will not last and with 125 doccuments of rules i have a serious issue with how GW handels rules atm and i doubt it to be a good thing aswell for the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 15:22:21


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Look I can agree that balancing can be difficult between factions with entirely different philosophies and rules on the units. However, it is inexcusable when one army gets the exact same rule but better as an army trait. ABSOLUTELY inexcusable.

You'd be hard pressed to find a trait in the tyranids army that isn't just a worse version of another armies free rules.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Xenomancers wrote:
Look I can agree that balancing can be difficult between factions with entirely different philosophies and rules on the units. However, it is inexcusable when one army gets the exact same rule but better as an army trait. ABSOLUTELY inexcusable.

You'd be hard pressed to find a trait in the tyranids army that isn't just a worse version of another armies free rules.



As a csm and R&H player, I would like to see the worse trait corresponding to WB or R&H covenants

But yeah, just getting worse traits or conditional traits whilest others just get Trait upon trait upon trait is bs no matter how you cut it.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Look I can agree that balancing can be difficult between factions with entirely different philosophies and rules on the units. However, it is inexcusable when one army gets the exact same rule but better as an army trait. ABSOLUTELY inexcusable.

You'd be hard pressed to find a trait in the tyranids army that isn't just a worse version of another armies free rules.


This is true. One of them you have to outnumber the unit to get a wounding bonus, and then you have the cover one not affecting anything flying. It's pretty bogus, agreed.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





pm713 wrote:
Generally someone learns from mistakes. You'd very much expect someone who made a mistake making 6th to not do that in 7th and 8th.


What makes you think they haven't been learning? Did they do regular FAQs and point changes in 6th and 7th?

Or FAQ responses like this?

Spoiler:
We’ve had a lot of feedback on this matter, so we thought it would be useful to explain what we were, and what we were
not, attempting to achieve with this errata.

This errata was designed to answer a common question that arose when units that can Fly were attempting to
charge units atop a tall terrain feature, or vice versa. In such a situation, even though the vertical distance between
the charging unit and its target could be quite large, the horizontal distances involved could be very small, or even
nothing. As they ignored the vertical distance to their target when charging, this could result in automatic charges.
This was further compounded when a unit arriving from reserve was set up more than 9" vertically from enemy
models on top of a tall terrain feature, but then either had a charge distance that was substantially less than 9" (or was
automatically charged) that turn when combined with the above. This was not the intent of the original rule and we
therefore took the difficult decision that units that can Fly should have to roll the same charge roll as any other unit.
To be clear, the errata was not published as an attempt to redress any perceived balance within the game, or to tone
down the power of certain units that can Fly (or that can move as if they could Fly). It was designed to make charge
rolls clear and unambiguous for all units – hence we feel it is important that no unit is excluded from the errata. If the
power of any units has been affected as a result of this errata, then we shall review it and adjust its points value (and
Power Rating) accordingly


Or this?

Spoiler:
This is a genuine error on our part, and as such it is
something we wish to correct as soon as possible. As we
are having to make a change of this nature, we are also
taking the opportunity to change the Fires of Battle
Stratagem now, rather than waiting for the next balance
update. Some fiendish combinations we had not spotted
are possible in order to reliably inflict far more mortal
wounds than were ever intended. This change therefore
limits the total number of mortal wounds that this
Stratagem can inflict so that it is more in line with the
mortal wound output of similarly costed Stratagems.


Can you honestly tell me you would have expected GW to do these things back then? Sure, they frigged up marines, but to say they haven't grown is really ignoring the details. With some more pushing from the community they can get their gak together.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 15:52:26


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





beyond of course that the later one sounds depending on interpretation rather condescending.

Vice versa i can point to a lot of things in CA and state that overall in the balance spectre they didn't really learn much.,

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
beyond of course that the later one sounds depending on interpretation rather condescending.

Vice versa i can point to a lot of things in CA and state that overall in the balance spectre they didn't really learn much.,

Exactly. They really HAVEN'T learned. Look at Super Doctrines. Look at the super messed up wording of the Salamanders sacrifice Strat. They need a whole new team, period.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

The problem isn't super doctrines as a concept, it's that some super doctrines are more super than others. The BT one is perfectly fine considering how situational and marginal it is. The Iron Hands one... Not so much.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Not Online!!! wrote:

Vice versa i can point to a lot of things in CA and state that overall in the balance spectre they didn't really learn much.,


Yes, perhaps they're barking up the wrong tree with too many point drops (with some exception), but they're leaps and bounds better at missions than anything in the past and they've largely hit the proper things with point changes.

The one item nagging me about points drops is set back a bit by the second point drop for Spawn. I've enjoyed them at 25 points even if particularly not competitive, but they make great engineers hiding behind terrain. Even at 25 I would look at Grotesques with jealousy. These two units are almost identical:

M7 WS3 BS6 S5 T5 W4 A4 LD8 SV6
M7 WS4 BS0 S5 T5 W4 AD6+1 LD10 SV5

Grotesques are 32. Spawn are now 20.

Spawn hit at S5 AP2 D2 and the chance for AP4, +2A, or reroll wounds.
Grotesques are S5 AP2 D1 and +1A or S5 AP0 D1 and 6s to hit cause a MW (in addition, but not vs vehicles)

It really seems like Spawn have the edge, but for units that have to hoof it the Grotesques get off far better with a 4++/6+++ and the subsequent bonuses from PfP as well as better WS. Not to mention the option for T6 (and usually S6). Now, if Rule of Three was not a thing I could probably absolutely SWAMP the table with Spawn and break the game, so there is a bit of crutch there. Grotesques break it a little by being allowed max 10 instead of 5 like Spawn.

Oh, and DE can deepstrike BEAST and INFANTRY (Grotesques are INFANTRY), but my Spawn are totally exempt from such an option.

Is the solution here to add rules to Spawn? I don't know. They already have enough and unless we want 3 or 4 or more special rules for some units point drops are potentially the best way forward. If GW adds deepstrike to Spawn or other such abilities them points need to come up, but for now 20 points might be a good spot - especially with the Thousand Sons strat.
   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut




Pardon my ignorance... But my Tyranids have been on the back-burner for the while and I have a simple question: do Trygons get anything useful out of this? Really the only thing bigger than a 'fex I would ever want to play
   
Made in ca
Implacable Skitarii




Ottawa, Canada

Do any of the custom Hive traits make a Nidzilla list work? The +1 to hit first turn in melee seems pretty decent when combined with OOE's buff, and the regen 1 wound at start of turn could be useful. I don't play Nids but I always considered a monster list because it would involve less model investment.

| | Krieg | |
30k: Alpha Legion | | Blackshields 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Where are people finding these rules? I thought Blood of Baal wasn't even out yet.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





LoftyS wrote:
Pardon my ignorance... But my Tyranids have been on the back-burner for the while and I have a simple question: do Trygons get anything useful out of this? Really the only thing bigger than a 'fex I would ever want to play


You can give it a 5++ and double wounds on the damage table, make it S8 AP4 D6+1, or let it heal up to 3 in melee.

If the traits apply to massiv scything talons you can get an additional AP there as well as a +1 to hit in the first round of combat. There's a stratagem to get a 3D6 drop 1 charge after a Synapse has charged (successfully, I think) or the same thing when charging a unit that has lost a model to shooting.

That's most of it, anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 16:50:52


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

Vice versa i can point to a lot of things in CA and state that overall in the balance spectre they didn't really learn much.,


Yes, perhaps they're barking up the wrong tree with too many point drops (with some exception), but they're leaps and bounds better at missions than anything in the past and they've largely hit the proper things with point changes.

The one item nagging me about points drops is set back a bit by the second point drop for Spawn. I've enjoyed them at 25 points even if particularly not competitive, but they make great engineers hiding behind terrain. Even at 25 I would look at Grotesques with jealousy. These two units are almost identical:

M7 WS3 BS6 S5 T5 W4 A4 LD8 SV6
M7 WS4 BS0 S5 T5 W4 AD6+1 LD10 SV5

Grotesques are 32. Spawn are now 20.

Spawn hit at S5 AP2 D2 and the chance for AP4, +2A, or reroll wounds.
Grotesques are S5 AP2 D1 and +1A or S5 AP0 D1 and 6s to hit cause a MW (in addition, but not vs vehicles)

It really seems like Spawn have the edge, but for units that have to hoof it the Grotesques get off far better with a 4++/6+++ and the subsequent bonuses from PfP as well as better WS. Not to mention the option for T6 (and usually S6). Now, if Rule of Three was not a thing I could probably absolutely SWAMP the table with Spawn and break the game, so there is a bit of crutch there. Grotesques break it a little by being allowed max 10 instead of 5 like Spawn.

Oh, and DE can deepstrike BEAST and INFANTRY (Grotesques are INFANTRY), but my Spawn are totally exempt from such an option.

Is the solution here to add rules to Spawn? I don't know. They already have enough and unless we want 3 or 4 or more special rules for some units point drops are potentially the best way forward. If GW adds deepstrike to Spawn or other such abilities them points need to come up, but for now 20 points might be a good spot - especially with the Thousand Sons strat.


Frankly grotesques just tie better in with their faction, therefore get the tools to actually work, whilest spawn only ever was distraction fodder.
(except you talk R&H spawn, which were actually a damage dealer in 7th now they are vegetables though and remain at the 33 pts even though they are literally normal csm spawn.)
Also spawn have no rules that help them for what they do, which is probably the core issue.

As for the abundance of pts cuts, i agree that it probably is often too much in too many fations, otoh most of them are on units that were barely played, HOWEVER some of them were overdue, others i am more skeptic.
Take the Helldrake f.e. it got another cut,it get's to the point where it went from a bad too nigh autoinclude with certain F&F shenanigans, especially for nightlords.
Then there are the obvious classic FW ranges wich didn't really get anything even looked at which would need severe help to make something of a working list back out of them.
Then there are cuts on units that just conceptually can't ever work, Mutilators f.e.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 17:03:08


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







pm713 wrote:
Where are people finding these rules? I thought Blood of Baal wasn't even out yet.

I think some places got preview copies. I didn't catch the stream, but I think Hellstorm Wargaming had a copy for a podcast at the weekend?

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Dysartes wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Where are people finding these rules? I thought Blood of Baal wasn't even out yet.

I think some places got preview copies. I didn't catch the stream, but I think Hellstorm Wargaming had a copy for a podcast at the weekend?

Ahh I see. I'll wait for a chance to read it then. I don't like videos like that really.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Goonhammer has a written review out.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Ah lovely.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Orodhen wrote:
Do any of the custom Hive traits make a Nidzilla list work? The +1 to hit first turn in melee seems pretty decent when combined with OOE's buff, and the regen 1 wound at start of turn could be useful. I don't play Nids but I always considered a monster list because it would involve less model investment.
The best I think is monsters get to advance and shoot with not penalty and ignore penalties with heavy weapons. Very few heavy weapons to take advantage of this (maybe 0) but advance and shoot without pen is pretty dang good for almost every monster.

With the drop to Toxicrine in points I could see that being pretty viable. Great for dakka fexen. Dakka tyrants. It's really too bad this only effects monsters - it would almost make devil gaunts on foot viable. For the other part of your traits I'm not sure what you would take. Maybe 4FNP to overwatch for your tyrants and fex could be good too.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Goonhammer has a written review out.
I want to second that. Goonhammer usually got a review up on the day when pre-orders are available. Not as fast as some Youtube guys, but you don't have to try to read a pixelated rule book.

   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The problem isn't super doctrines as a concept, it's that some super doctrines are more super than others. The BT one is perfectly fine considering how situational and marginal it is. The Iron Hands one... Not so much.


IMO biggest mistake is that traits in general are free which creates an impossible task of balance. Compare a CSM, one with Word Bearers and the other with Alpha Legion - same effective model cost yet completely different tabletop efficiency... this goes for every codex.

Somewhere along the way in wanting to have introducing rules to represent fluff they've made a mess that they can't get out of now until the next reboot.


"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 NurglesR0T wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The problem isn't super doctrines as a concept, it's that some super doctrines are more super than others. The BT one is perfectly fine considering how situational and marginal it is. The Iron Hands one... Not so much.


IMO biggest mistake is that traits in general are free which creates an impossible task of balance. Compare a CSM, one with Word Bearers and the other with Alpha Legion - same effective model cost yet completely different tabletop efficiency... this goes for every codex.

Somewhere along the way in wanting to have introducing rules to represent fluff they've made a mess that they can't get out of now until the next reboot.



Yes, but the door swings both ways. WB get phenomenal Possessed whereas AL do not. WB might be less durable overall, but they have perks that help someone interested in playing a certain way that fits the scope of their legion.

In that sense it's fine for AL to be "better" without needing to make the rest of WB better. Someone can run a WB Vanguard, IW Spearhead, and AL Battalion where they all have something strong to offer.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Australia

It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Eonfuzz wrote:
It's almost like trying to make each subfaction as unique as entire factions is a dumb move.


I mean I don't enjoy Thousand Sons, because they're marines. People don't pick Night Lords, because they like tanks. Or World Eaters, because they like Havocs.
   
 
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