Nids in PA3

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**Yarium**

I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.

**Xenomancers**

Spoletta wrote:
Lol i give up, there is no way to reason here.

If people really think that the eldar one was good and the tyranid one was bad, we must be playing different games.

I'm extremely happy with my bugs and will restart using them in my highly competitive marine meta without issues. I have no reason to fight with people who only see the negative side of everything.

The difference is the eldar are already a strong army. Tyranids have fallen to the greater depths of garbage. They also got some of the worst CA support in the new feild manual. Gaunts still 4 points with a 6+ save. A hormagaunt is 5 points...compare that to a 7 point naked harlequin. (so much for a comprehensive revamp of the points in this game. Nids have been royally screwed getting the fewest point drops. While the rules support in this book about on par with the new stuff that eldar got in terms of volume of content. Nids got 0 viable competitive builds with them. Just a few stratagems and (basically warlord traits) adaptations which can make a few units better. Nids were already on the weaker sides of army traits which is a big reason why the army sucks so bad right now. If they really wanted to help the army you should be able to pick one of these new traits to take in addition yo your home fleet or take 3 of the custom traits.

Meanwhile eldar get in their custom traits (literally jorm but better) always counts in cover and they get to pick an additional trait with it. Tons of ways to reroll ones which they didn't even need (NIDS WOULD LOVE THIS). Ways to boost their basic weapons to the max.

Nids got screwed dude.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

catbarf wrote:
tneva82 wrote:Act is not sisters anti soup rule. You can soup all you wish and act of faith is there

Sorry, I meant Sacred Rites.

Spoletta wrote:Nid stuff in PA3 is top quality (even if sometimes broken, like the new exocrines), so no problems there.

The build-your-own-hive-fleet system is hot garbage. Seriously, I don't know who thought that having monsters inflict a -1Ld debuff within 3", or getting a 6+ invuln but only on monsters and only if you don't move and only if you're not in melee and only if it's turn 2+, would be worth an army trait. None of them come close to dethroning Kraken.

As well, they don't get a 'parent' hive fleet, so that means the new fleet-specific psychic powers are off-limits. Granted, most of the psychic powers are of limited utility. A couple seem worthwhile.

The relics are so-so. The one for psykers is a must-take, everything else is meh.

Overall it's really just the adaptive physiology and the new stratagems that are must-haves, but they cost CP, so in an army already reliant on CP that's going to be tough. It's a nice upgrade, but not what I would consider 'top quality' when we were hoping for a flat buff to put us on even footing with the other factions.

Indeed. We got some new must take relics. Plus we gotta spend CP at the start of the game and give up a warlord trait to make 2 units stronger. Overall the end result is the army is getting slightly better. I'm probably going to remain mono levi but might be including a patrol of kronos just for an actually usable exocrine.

**Tyel**

A naked Harlequin is going to be 11 points.

On Tyranids, I think the weakness here is that this was an opportunity to make Nidzilla a viable approach and imo at least, it still isn't really - although I may be wrong. (To some extent ditto for those fantasising about hordes of gaunts swarming across the table.)

My weird fantasy of big warrior blobs serving as troops choices might be a bit more viable given the points reduction in CA.

But as I see it you are going to keep on taking the usual suspects and this boosts them slightly. Which is nice.

**Martel732**

GW is crazy for marines. It's dumb, but GW gonna GW.

**Gene St. Ealer**

Yarium wrote:
I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.

In this thread, we have Spoletta calling Exocrines broken and a 5% increase on efficacy incredible on a faction with a 30% win rate. I honestly think we Nids players bring it on ourselves at this point. Yes, we're way better than we've been in like 5 years. BUT we're still very suboptimal to other factions, let alone Space Marines. Why can't we ask for more buffs than what we got? Let's see how Nids look in 3 months. Somehow, I doubt that PA and the points drops from CA (which really do *nothing* for us outside of the Exocrine) tip us over the top. But in case I'm wrong, you guys screencap this post and make sure to rub my face in it, because I'll own it (and I'd ***love*** to be wrong, I want to see Nids as a force to be reckoned with again).

**Xenomancers**

Tyel wrote:
A naked Harlequin is going to be 11 points.

On Tyranids, I think the weakness here is that this was an opportunity to make Nidzilla a viable approach and imo at least, it still isn't really - although I may be wrong. (To some extent ditto for those fantasising about hordes of gaunts swarming across the table.)

My weird fantasy of big warrior blobs serving as troops choices might be a bit more viable given the points reduction in CA.

But as I see it you are going to keep on taking the usual suspects and this boosts them slightly. Which is nice.

A naked harliquen is 7 points. You can give it a CC weapon for free - why would they do that? Well it's way better than a freaking hormagant that is why. 2 point warrior drop is nice but im usually taking 9 warrior. This saves me...18 points...Holy crap. I can get a whole 4 termagants for that price. That will certainly help me beat space marine armies. Harliquens in a 2000 point lists which are quite superior to nids got about 250 point savings accross the board. For my nids it's looking like about 40.

**Togusa**

catbarf wrote:
The Psychic Awakening rules are an interesting mixed bag.

For starters, the build-your-own-hive-fleet traits are mostly worthless. Get a 6+ FNP, but only for Monsters, only if they stay still, only if they're not in melee, and only if it's turn 2 onwards? Enemies in melee with a monster suffer -1Ld? Monsters on their last bracket get +2A (at awful WS, naturally)? Who wrote these and thought they would be enticing army traits?

The -1AP and 4++ against Overwatch abilities are marginally more useful, but none of them come close to displacing Kraken (3D6-pick-highest Advance, fall back and charge in the same turn, and a stratagem to double Advance rolls) as the go-to for melee armies. A 4++ against Overwatch sounds great on paper, but if you take less damage on Overwatch at the cost of getting into melee a turn later, that's a bad trade. The new psychic ability for Kraken (pick an enemy unit, everything gets to re-roll charge distance against it) makes it even better for melee-oriented armies. I've seen some speculation about stacking traits and stratagems to get Hormagaunts with AP-3, but I'm skeptical that it will really be that great for 5pt T3/6+ models.

The new relics are okay, I guess. None of them particularly stand out, except maybe turning a Stranglethorn Cannon into Assault 6.

However, the Adaptive Physiology rules, and new Stratagems, are a big deal.

Adaptive Physiology in particular is huge for monsters (ESPECIALLY the oft-forgotten Hierodule, which with a 5++ and less harsh degradation will be more akin to a Knight as it should be), and provides some interesting traits that might be useful for bigger units of Troops. Some of the traits would also be great replacements for our Warlord Traits, which are mostly mediocre- if I have Old One Eye on the field, a boost of +1S, +1AP, and +1D is much more useful than any of the actual WTs.

And the Stratagems seem mostly geared towards providing new niches for previously-unused units. Toxicrenes preventing units from falling back, Warriors being able to reduce incoming Damage, and Maleceptors buffing nearby troops all provide new utility for these units. Coupled with the mild points reductions in CA, they might be really useful now.

The downside is that they all cost CP, so we're now even more CP-hungry than before. I expect to see a lot more Neurothropes and Ripper Swarms filling out cheap Battalions. The nice thing is that both of those units are actually useful (psychic support and objective-capping/backline harassment respectively), so it's not a huge detriment.

I'm still annoyed that we don't get any flat bonuses for an all-Tyranid army, which is what I was hoping Adaptive Physiology would be- none of them are as impactful as Doctrines or Acts of Faith, so I don't see why we have to sacrifice WTs or CP for them. But there is still a net improvement here, so I'm at least happy for that.

Are they still afraid of letting Carnifexes and the like hit on something better than a 4+ in CC?

**Grimskul**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Grimskul wrote:
It's truly bizarre, like for the marines rules so far they have pretty consistently good rules, but when it comes to xenos, god forbid they have any mix-and-match traits that come close to marines as far as being competitive goes. It's like they were thrown in as an afterthought because they HAVE to do something for them out of obligation rather than any desire to give them some sort of bone or update. It's more or less reinforcing the NPC feel of a lot of xenos races when compared to the golden MC role of marines right now.

he now, the aeldari ones weren't that bad.
But it's eldar and one thing that eldar had was consistent rules support. (GW just shifted internally to force people to buy another part of aspects and co kg. imo but he.)

Also god forbid Chaos gets build your own traits.

Eldar ones were better in comparison to nids, but the only ones that are really worth looking at are expert crafters, masters of concealment, and children of prophecy. Maaaaybe hail of doom. Everything else is more or less beaten by the ones in the main codex, which isn't saying much. I'd say the best part is more that Aspects got more flavour and warlocks got a useful discipline to replace their smite. But again, the big issue is that they also didn't really get a "doctrine" or mono-faction buff that put's them in some sort of parity with marines. Nids thankfully did, but unfortunately it still comes at the cost of WL traits (unlike marines) and the majority of their hive fleet traits are a write off. So either way you can see there's a distinct lack of either investment or energy when it comes to anything outside of marines.

**Spoletta**

Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Yarium wrote:
I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.

In this thread, we have Spoletta calling Exocrines broken and a 5% increase on efficacy incredible on a faction with a 30% win rate. I honestly think we Nids players bring it on ourselves at this point. Yes, we're way better than we've been in like 5 years. BUT we're still very suboptimal to other factions, let alone Space Marines. Why can't we ask for more buffs than what we got? Let's see how Nids look in 3 months. Somehow, I doubt that PA and the points drops from CA (which really do *nothing* for us outside of the Exocrine) tip us over the top. But in case I'm wrong, you guys screencap this post and make sure to rub my face in it, because I'll own it (and I'd ***love*** to be wrong, I want to see Nids as a force to be reckoned with again).

If the new exocrine was a marine model all the forum would be bashing GW for screwing another edition, but since it is not marine then it is fine...

On this forum we have at least as many marine apologists as xeno fangirls.

**Togusa**

Spoletta wrote:
Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Yarium wrote:
I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.

In this thread, we have Spoletta calling Exocrines broken and a 5% increase on efficacy incredible on a faction with a 30% win rate. I honestly think we Nids players bring it on ourselves at this point. Yes, we're way better than we've been in like 5 years. BUT we're still very suboptimal to other factions, let alone Space Marines. Why can't we ask for more buffs than what we got? Let's see how Nids look in 3 months. Somehow, I doubt that PA and the points drops from CA (which really do *nothing* for us outside of the Exocrine) tip us over the top. But in case I'm wrong, you guys screencap this post and make sure to rub my face in it, because I'll own it (and I'd ***love*** to be wrong, I want to see Nids as a force to be reckoned with again).

If the new exocrine was a marine model all the forum would be bashing GW for screwing another edition, but since it is not marine then it is fine...

On this forum we have at least as many marine apologists as xeno fangirls.

How is it new? What did they do to it?

**Daedalus81**

Yarium wrote:
I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.

Well...for the low, low price of $40...or memorization (*cough* piracy *cough*)...

**catbarf**

Togusa wrote:
How is it new? What did they do to it?

It receives a minor points reduction, gets a 1CP stratagem to count as being stationary even if it moved, and Kronos gets a psychic power which allows a unit to score an extra hit on a 6. The Exocrine has an innate ability to hit at +1 and shoot twice if stationary, so these can all stack together to let the Exocrine move, then shoot twice, hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s (if Kronos) with extra hits on 5+.

This averages 14 hits with a S7, AP-3, D2 weapon for the cost of a psychic power and 1CP. Throw on one of the adaptive biology traits, and anything it hurts is going to suffer another D3 mortal wounds.

I certainly won't dispute that it's powerful, but personally I don't want my army composition to be driven by Kronos Exocrines, either.

**Gene St. Ealer**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Yarium wrote:
I know, right? A tourney-strength list that I just used to slaughter an Ultramarine player just got better. Did it get a ton better? No. Gained 45 points, the Zoanthropes will cast a bit better, and the Hive Guard will kill a bit better. In total, that's about a 5% increase in the efficacy of my list, but considering that it's basically FREE, that's incredible.

Well...for the low, low price of $40...or memorization (*cough* piracy *cough*)...

It's great that Yarium is cleaning up against Ultramarines with Nids. But there's a hell of a lot more anecdata that goes the other way. And you guys can cheerlead Exocrines all you want. They're a good Nid, they showed up in our last tourney-appearing list. And maybe if you shoehorned them into Marines and they got the special rules ecosystem that Marines get, they'd be really good. But as part of the Nids codex, they aren't lighting up the world. That's it, dispute it with your anecdotes but they're anecdotes (sorry Daed, basically none of this was directed at your post lol)

**Slayer-Fan123**

Spoletta wrote:
Lol i give up, there is no way to reason here.

If people really think that the eldar one was good and the tyranid one was bad, we must be playing different games.

I'm extremely happy with my bugs and will restart using them in my highly competitive marine meta without issues. I have no reason to fight with people who only see the negative side of everything.

Okay then, show the people here they're wrong and talk about all these super competitive things Tyranids got. I could use a laugh this morning.

**Tyran**

PA3 gives Tyranids more options. It is not going to make Tyranids "competitive", if you already shelved your nids this is not going to undo that.

But if you already were playing with nids, either because you like the challenge of being the underdog in tournaments or because your meta is casual, PA3 helps.

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lol i give up, there is no way to reason here.

If people really think that the eldar one was good and the tyranid one was bad, we must be playing different games.

I'm extremely happy with my bugs and will restart using them in my highly competitive marine meta without issues. I have no reason to fight with people who only see the negative side of everything.

Okay then, show the people here they're wrong and talk about all these super competitive things Tyranids got. I could use a laugh this morning.

Well, that's the problem. There is no way to really separate arguments mentally from 'marine meta' and what we might be perceiving things as if we weren't in that state.

It feels like Nids got a lot of ways to sneak in more AP, which was needed as well as keying into buffs for under-used units. Yes, some it will cost CP. Yes, there is a lot of really silly and unusable traits, but then what marines are using reroll 1s to hit with bolt weapons, -1 LD w/i 3", no more than 1 model flees from morale, no penalty for assault weapons, 1s and 2s to wound always fail, or +1 leadership?

**Wayniac**

I certainly don't feel good having wanted to start Tyranids the pst few months and buying a bunch of stuff (that's since remained unassembled). The army went from being pretty decent with a ton of flexibility to build what you want (the reason I went for them) to like worst army in the game overnight thanks to a meta which doesn't favour them at all.

And it's no surprise that GW favors Imperium/Marines above everyone else. For decades now the real story of 40k hasn't been mankind beset by its foes on the brink of collapse but the triumph of the good and noble Imperium against the barbarians that threaten it. I chalk it up to the fact most of the 40k designers seem to all be imperium/marine fanboys. You rarely hear them talk about how they are excited about Xenos armies, it's almost always them gushing over how kewl the new marine stuff is for their marine armies. So why would they care about xenos when they only give a token interest for the sake of gameplay to them, and otherwise it's all about what new imperium thing can be added?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Lol i give up, there is no way to reason here.

If people really think that the eldar one was good and the tyranid one was bad, we must be playing different games.

I'm extremely happy with my bugs and will restart using them in my highly competitive marine meta without issues. I have no reason to fight with people who only see the negative side of everything.

Okay then, show the people here they're wrong and talk about all these super competitive things Tyranids got. I could use a laugh this morning.

Well, that's the problem. There is no way to really separate arguments mentally from 'marine meta' and what we might be perceiving things as if we weren't in that state.

It feels like Nids got a lot of ways to sneak in more AP, which was needed as well as keying into buffs for under-used units. Yes, some it will cost CP. Yes, there is a lot of really silly and unusable traits, but then what marines are using reroll 1s to hit with bolt weapons, -1 LD w/i 3", no more than 1 model flees from morale, no penalty for assault weapons, 1s and 2s to wound always fail, or +1 leadership?

Yeah the +1LD and Assault Weapon and -1LD ones are garbage but at least the other ones have uses, like 2s fail to wound and reroll 1s for Bolt Weapons in an Intercessor spam list, for example. That doesn't even count Strats and Relics either.

**Daedalus81**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah the +1LD and Assault Weapon and -1LD ones are garbage but at least the other ones have uses, like 2s fail to wound and reroll 1s for Bolt Weapons in an Intercessor spam list, for example. That doesn't even count Strats and Relics either.

Yea, you'll get no argument from me that marines have it better. There are some "good" ones that won't see use either, because other options are really good.

Still, -2 AP Hormagaunts that don't require CP or supporting characters to function (other than Synapse) or -1 to be hit in Melee / heal 1 / and heal up to 3 in Melee Flyrants sound at least interesting (if I heard them properly). Kraken is cool, but I don't know what a couple extra inches on the advance gets you when you're going to Onslaught them into combat anyway.

With mortars and PGCs taking a slap in the face running hordes seems a little less daunting - again, barring marines.

**Insectum7**

catbarf wrote:
Warriors being able to reduce incoming Damage,

Do tell! I uh. . . ask for a friend.

Kitane wrote:

Jormungandr spell has some interesting potential with devgant bombs, shock guard or large groups of warriors/raveners. .

Also interested to hear about Jormangundr tidbits.

**Daedalus81**

Insectum7 wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Warriors being able to reduce incoming Damage,

Do tell! I uh. . . ask for a friend.

Kitane wrote:

Jormungandr spell has some interesting potential with devgant bombs, shock guard or large groups of warriors/raveners. .

Also interested to hear about Jormangundr tidbits.

1 CP stratagem for Primes and Warriors to take -1D during shooting phase.

Psychic stuff --

Behemoth - VotLW in melee
Kraken - charges against target unit can be rerolled
Levi - synapse 18"
Gorgon - melee AP +1 in 9" bubble
Jorm - reroll hits vs target; cant be used first round
Hydra - when friendly model dies w/i 6" of psyker then on a 6 is causes a mortal wound to an enemy w/i 6"
Kronos - target unit hit rolls of 6 scores additional hit

**Imateria**

Insectum7 wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Warriors being able to reduce incoming Damage,

Do tell! I uh. . . ask for a friend.

Kitane wrote:

Jormungandr spell has some interesting potential with devgant bombs, shock guard or large groups of warriors/raveners. .

Also interested to hear about Jormangundr tidbits.

Their Pyschic power lets you reroll hits against a selected unit for Jormungandr units that have been set up on the table that turn.

**Xenomancers**

I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.

**Imateria**

My take is that this is very hit and miss for Nids. People have been talking up Exocrines and they'll definitely benefit, but I think the D3 mortals on a unit you failed to kill ability is going to be wasted on something like Exocrines, it'll be much better on units specifically set up for anti infantry shooting like Dakkafexes/Tyrants, and would have been ideal for Devilgaunts, Hive Guard and big squads of Warriors or Ravenors, but unfortunately it looks to be Monster only. For the monsters I'd much rather take the 5++, giving them the much needed survivability that they've been missing all edition. Interestingly of all the abilities you can choose from the only really bad one is the one WarCom chose to preview, which is a bit bizzar.

The Hivefleet Adaptations are mostly trash, a couple of them could be worth trying out but you'll need to build around them and they suffer the same problem that the Haemonculus Coven traits do in the first PA book, namely is it worth giving up Kraken? There's also a couple that already need to be FAQ'd, namely does the Scything Talon trait only apply to the infantry version or does it include the Monstrous and Massive versions as well, plus the Psychic trait seems to be unclear on whether the army gets a once per turn reroll or does each Psycher get the once per turn reroll?

The stratagems seem very situational. Some are guaranteed to see use every game, like the extra Adaptive Physiology strat or the Exocrines can count as stationary when shooting, but most are keyed in to specific units and you're now almost looking to build around specific units like the Haruspex just to get the milage out of what the book offers. Then there are the complete "Why bother?" strats like the -1 to hit, but only if you killed something in the previous fight phase and if attacking unit is within 6" of their target.

This trend continues through relics and psychic powers as well.

Overall I'd say Nids actually got the best content of the 3 PA books so far for none Loyalist Marine factions simply through it being far more comprehensive than what CSM, Craftworlds and Drukhari got, but it's mostly a sideways step that will only bring certain things up to be more usable in casual games and will not bring Nids back to a worthwhile place in the meta. It's just a real shame that it's becoming increasingly clear that PA's main purpose is to bring all Loyalist marine factions up to Codex Space Marine levels.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:
I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.

Well, their trait keys off synapse so it makes sense to a point even if it probably wouldn't ever be used.

**Gene St. Ealer**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.

Well, their trait keys off synapse so it makes sense to a point even if it probably wouldn't ever be used.

The trait requires you to be within 6'' to get the benefit though. The psychic power doesn't synergize at all. And that's my fundamental problem with this release -- so much stuff that looks decent to the non-Nids diehards, but then it all falls apart when you look at it under a microscope. And yeah, fundamentally, like somebody mentioned in an earlier post, you have to displace Kraken to make a difference in external balance. None of this stuff looks to do that. So externally, we remain the same faction winning 30% of the time. Internally, there's some help there, and I appreciate that. But they could've turned the knob a little further to the right on helping the dopey monsters, and made Nids players suffering through the edition trying to use those dopes happier. They did not do that.

**Lance845**

Apple Peel wrote:
Eonfuzz wrote:
Close amount of stuff lmfao.
Where's the new Tyranid model lines at?

What all needs brought out of resin/metal besides lictors?

Red terror. Shrikes. Heirodules. A dedicated tyranid prime model. Pryrovore. Biovore.

**Eldarain**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.

Well, their trait keys off synapse so it makes sense to a point even if it probably wouldn't ever be used.

I believe this misunderstanding is how it ended up so bad. (Trait only affects units within 6" of Synapse creatures. Extending Synapse does nothing for it)

**Xenomancers**

Eldarain wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.

Well, their trait keys off synapse so it makes sense to a point even if it probably wouldn't ever be used.

I believe this misunderstanding is how it ended up so bad. (Trait only affects units within 6" of Synapse creatures. Extending Synapse does nothing for it)

that could perhaps be true. However, The trait having that restriction alone is asinine. Look at ironhands trait - they get 6+ FNP 5+ overwatch and ignore degrading stats with no idiotic requirements.

I think the real issue is GW thinks LD actually matters. It is quite possibly the least important mechanic in the game.

**Eldarain**

Xenomancers wrote:
Eldarain wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I'm so glad levi got the most obviously bad spell ive ever seen in the game.

Well, their trait keys off synapse so it makes sense to a point even if it probably wouldn't ever be used.

I believe this misunderstanding is how it ended up so bad. (Trait only affects units within 6" of Synapse creatures. Extending Synapse does nothing for it)

that could perhaps be true. However, The trait having that restriction alone is asinine. Look at ironhands trait - they get 6+ FNP 5+ overwatch and ignore degrading stats with no idiotic requirements.

I think the real issue is GW thinks LD actually matters. It is quite possibly the least important mechanic in the game.

The faction is riddled with garbage like that. I don't understand how the same people can supercharge Marines but include layers of conditions for Xenos rules (Leviathan trait turns off if Catalyst is on a unit, the horror of a 5++ and a 6++ on a unit!)