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 Xenomancers wrote:
How many knights should you realistically be able to kill in a turn.

Well, this won't even kill one, so, not sure what your point is with this.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If they are losing a knight per turn on average from 500 points of your army that is a dedicated anti infantry unit.

As we established, they're not.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How is any army supposed to have a chance if you have a unit like this which can literally kill anything by putting 50ish wounds on something t8 with 2 damage each?

It's actually 48 wounds if you're not counting re-rolls and you're adding in Veterans. Which on a 3+ save results in 16 wounds, add in the relic and it bumps up to 21 wounds once per game. So, still not a dead knight, hell, that's not even a dead baneblade. So I've spent 500 points and 5 CP to maybe remove a sub-500 point model from the table, strangely I don't think it's quite what your bad math seems to think it is.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also - what relic are you talking about I calculate 33 intercessor kills with just 4cp and presence?

If you're not counting the Relic then your math is really wrong or you're counting a wound re-roll of some sort that doesn't exist.

 Xenomancers wrote:
And - would you ever take a choas army without a sorcerer? It is not an expenditure - in fact - having an efficient unit for that sorcerer to buff is a giant benefit to the sorcerer and the lord should be buffing as many units as he can.

How many units is this amazing sorcerer buffing? Because he's sitting and babysitting 1 squad. That's it, he's not flitting around like fething Tinkerbell buffing every donkey-cave he can find. He's buffing 1 squad, period, done, that's it. So you've bought that character specifically for that squad, end of story. By the way, the Chaos Lord and his 6" aura is doing the same thing, buffing 1 unit.

Nope.
120 shots
str 5
2 damage
presence.

Hitting on 2's reroll 1's is 97% hits
wounding on 4's is 50% wounds.

120 x .97 = 116.4 (2's reroll 1's to hit)
116.4 x .5 = 58.2 (4's to wound)
58.2 x .333 = 19.38 (3+ saves failed)
19.38 x 2 = 38.8 (2 damage)

It practically kills 2 knights man. It is mostly the 1 cp stratagem doing it too. It triples your damage to t8 vehicals.

I disagree about the sorcerer also. You have to take hq's to get CP and you are going to use him to buff a unit every turn as long as he is alive. Having better units to buff is a positive. He's not baby sitting - he is doing lots of jobs - he is moving up to deny psychic powers - he is giving melle support - he is also going to buff the oblits when they deep strike to. He is a lynch pin. Not a burden.

It can kill a Knight, with about a 70% success rate.

But to say it kills two is a VAST exaggeration.

Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It can kill a Knight, with about a 70% success rate.

But to say it kills two is a VAST exaggeration.

Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.

I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nope.
120 shots
str 5
2 damage
presence.

Hitting on 2's reroll 1's is 97% hits
wounding on 4's is 50% wounds.

120 x .97 = 116.4 (2's reroll 1's to hit)
116.4 x .5 = 58.2 (4's to wound)
58.2 x .333 = 19.38 (3+ saves failed)
19.38 x 2 = 38.8 (2 damage)

It practically kills 2 knights man. It is mostly the 1 cp stratagem doing it too. It triples your damage to t8 vehicals.

I disagree about the sorcerer also. You have to take hq's to get CP and you are going to use him to buff a unit every turn as long as he is alive. Having better units to buff is a positive. He's not baby sitting - he is doing lots of jobs - he is moving up to deny psychic powers - he is giving melle support - he is also going to buff the oblits when they deep strike to. He is a lynch pin. Not a burden.

You play in the land of perfectly prescient splitfire. You'll kill one knight, if you're lucky. Also, the Sorcerer is doing feth all melee support, you're praying he doesn't get punked by a squad sergeant, seriously. He is babysitting, he is fragile and you're hoping he can occasionally deny a power. You're seriously deranged on this, apparently you've found Sorcerer superman who flies everywhere and does everything. Further, I didn't call him a burden, I simply don't see him as the ungodly superman you seem to think he is. Sorcerers have real characters and squads to protect them, not the other way around, they hide and try not to get shot, and when RG is on the table, they kiss their asses goodbye.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It can kill a Knight, with about a 70% success rate.

But to say it kills two is a VAST exaggeration.

Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.

I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.

Ah, so in effect, you're not even killing a Knight. Remember, they have a strat which lets them operate on the top bracket for 1 CP.

Xeno's math is right, the theorical damage output is really really high.

Problem is that this will never happen in a real game.

If i see that you have a 20 strong unit of those things, i know what is going to happen, so i will select the deployment where i have 24" inches of free deployment available and deploy a bit back. Remember that the defender selects both deployment type and deployment side.

This is assuming that the noise marines are going first, because if they not, they are in for a world of hurt.

Spoletta wrote:
Xeno's math is right, the theorical damage output is really really high.

Problem is that this will never happen in a real game.

If i see that you have a 20 strong unit of those things, i know what is going to happen, so i will select the deployment where i have 24" inches of free deployment available and deploy a bit back. Remember that the defender selects both deployment type and deployment side.

This is assuming that the noise marines are going first, because if they not, they are in for a world of hurt.

The whole scenario hinges on a lot of 'ifs'. Going first is the most obvious problem, Emperor's Children have no way to protect that squad, much less their apparently hyper mobile, melee beatstick, super casting sorcerer god. Going second pretty much destroys most of the concerns here.

As stated earlier, for 500 points and 5 CP it should wreck some gak.

 Imateria wrote:

 Yarium wrote:


#2 - Being able to give -1AP to scything talons, even if we don't know whether or not it applies to also the big scything talons, is a big deal. Being able to give those an extra -1AP? Also a big deal. Being able to potentially give an EXTRA -1AP on top of that? MASSIVELY BIG DEAL! You know who makes a lot of quality Scything Talon attacks (even just basic ones)? Raveners supported by the Red Terror. And guess what; that all deep strikes natively AND there's ways to buff deep strike & charge in this supplement. (EDIT: 5 attacks per Ravener * 9 Raveners, hitting on 2+'s, rerolling 1's).

2# That is very cool, I have long been toying with the idea of running 27 Ravenors beacuse everyone else is doing Genestealers (who would also benefit from this trait as they can take Scything Talons for free), the fact that they've dropped 5ppm in CA will really help them as well. Still extremely fragile though. However, the problem with the buffs to charging is that unless I've missed a couple things stacking, you'll stil at best be looking at an 8" charge rolling 3D6 and discarding the lowest, not terrible but not amazing either, and in Kraken with the Swarmlord you could already get 2 squads to move on average 22-24" across the board and then charge turn 1.

There is a point cost where the ravener profile starts not being so frail any more, and 18ppm gets quite close to that.
At 6 points per wound at T4 5+ you are talking about guardsmen level of resistance against lasguns, and same level of intercessors against -2 AP fire. 3 wounds profile are also hugely better than 2 wounds to avoid getting shred by burst cannons, stalker bolter, plasma, impaler cannons, disintegrators and stuff like that. Against smash captains the intercessors are only slightly better (they can save on 6+). In general you can see that raveners compare easily with troops which are surely not defined as frail.

In any case, if you play that ravener blob, also take a detachment of gorgon with a flyrant. Give him the reaper of obliterax, toxin sacks and the adaptation for +1 Str AP and damage. Drop him together with the raveners and cast the new Gorgon power of -1AP bubble (works on all friendlies, not only Gorgon). Now you gave the raveners an additional -1 AP and you got yourself one of the most powerful beatsticks in the game (that tyrant can solo a knight in one round, hurts more than a smash captain, i call him "Gorgon Reaper").

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It can kill a Knight, with about a 70% success rate.

But to say it kills two is a VAST exaggeration.

Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.

I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.

Ah, so in effect, you're not even killing a Knight. Remember, they have a strat which lets them operate on the top bracket for 1 CP.

Good thing you have 1500 more points to deal 8 total wounds and auto win the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It can kill a Knight, with about a 70% success rate.

But to say it kills two is a VAST exaggeration.

Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.

I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.

Ah, so in effect, you're not even killing a Knight. Remember, they have a strat which lets them operate on the top bracket for 1 CP.

Good thing you have 1500 more points to deal 8 total wounds and auto win the game.

And what if you get second turn? Your Noise Marines get pasted. Not to mention, all Knights is not a tournament-WINNING list, it's a gatekeeper list.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It can kill a Knight, with about a 70% success rate.

But to say it kills two is a VAST exaggeration.

Edit: 70% assumes, of course, that your Pyschic powers never fail and you get first turn and have range on your opponent.

I said practically. The average if you split the shots in half would be leaving 2 knights at 4 wounds each. Seriously. There is no point even playing this game if you can super buff a unit like this.

Ah, so in effect, you're not even killing a Knight. Remember, they have a strat which lets them operate on the top bracket for 1 CP.

Good thing you have 1500 more points to deal 8 total wounds and auto win the game.

And what if you get second turn? Your Noise Marines get pasted. Not to mention, all Knights is not a tournament-WINNING list, it's a gatekeeper list.

The point is it doesn't matter what this unit shoots at. It's destroying it more or less automatically. Nothing is more successful that weight of dice. Double shooting with +2 to wound (+1 str might not give you +1 to wound but when it does it's devestertaing) and double damage. These stratas combine to procude something in the range of 1000% damage increase. Making a 340 point unit shoot like a 3400 point unit. it's basically indefensible at this point.

 Yarium wrote:
Point is, there's good stuff in there. Interesting stuff. Broken? Likely not, because I don't like broken anyways. But certainly there are some real combos here. Multiple combos. And I'm not even a good player. If I can figure out things here, that mean's there's some cool things that are possible through this. There's enough things that make you go "well, maybe that can be part of a plan" to suggest that at least 1 of those will be strong enough to be part of a competitive Tyranid plan. And for metas that are less than "we only play with the top lists of SoCal Open", you probably can do really well as Tyranids with some of these.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong I'm liking more and more of this book, it's considerably better than what my other two armies, Craftworlds and Drukhari, got in PA1. Tyranids problem is the base codex though and things like most of our combat monsters being WS4+. Sure, there's a trait that gives monsters +1 to hit on the turn they charge, but that means we're now relying on a trait just to make things usable. Overall it's a step up on the base codex, but it'll only put us mid tier at best and there remains zero point in playing against a decent Space Marine list.

But that assumes that the unit is good in the first place.

If you supercharge a bad unit, it becomes good. While I certainly agree it'd be better to have a good unit that can't be boosted like that, I doubt it'll rock the competitive scene.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Making a 340 point unit shoot like a 3400 point unit. it's basically indefensible at this point.

That's not remotely how that progression works.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But that assumes that the unit is good in the first place.

If you supercharge a bad unit, it becomes good. While I certainly agree it'd be better to have a good unit that can't be boosted like that, I doubt it'll rock the competitive scene.

This was a pretty competitive build at LVo. I actually played against it twice and it rocked me lost and tied to it. Yeah it went first both times and I nearly came back because he couldn't kill my Castellan. However - now he kills it in 1 turn no issue. Infantry are basically indestructable at an ITC event. You just start them in a building. 20 Noise marines already could wipe most your infantry from the table with aplha strike. This unit did not also need to ability to wipe every primaris off the table turn 1 or just about any 2 large units. This unit is so good there is no reason not to bring 2 also.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But that assumes that the unit is good in the first place.

If you supercharge a bad unit, it becomes good. While I certainly agree it'd be better to have a good unit that can't be boosted like that, I doubt it'll rock the competitive scene.

This was a pretty competitive build at LVo. I actually played against it twice and it rocked me lost and tied to it. Yeah it went first both times and I nearly came back because he couldn't kill my Castellan. However - now he kills it in 1 turn no issue. Infantry are basically indestructable at an ITC event. You just start them in a building. 20 Noise marines already could wipe most your infantry from the table with aplha strike. This unit did not also need to ability to wipe every primaris off the table turn 1 or just about any 2 large units. This unit is so good there is no reason not to bring 2 also.

Really? Do you have a source for this?

Because 20 Noise Marines without this strat, even with Prescience, VotLW, and EC, kill only about 13 Intercessors.

For reference, that's about two thirds their points value, not including buffing units.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Making a 340 point unit shoot like a 3400 point unit. it's basically indefensible at this point.

That's not remotely how that progression works.

I broke the efficiency down. 20 nice marines kills like 3 primaris marines and it goes to killing 33 with all these buffs. That is a 1000% increase. It goes from dealing 3 wounds to a knight to dealing 38 to a knight. That is over 1000% increase. That is exactly how the progression works. This game is now a joke. Kind of like it always has been. With 130 point smash captains stacking a bunch of abilities and fighting twice and killing 600 point models more or less automatically. No one likes this kind of game play so why do you defend it? GW doesn't even understand the way their game works.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But that assumes that the unit is good in the first place.

If you supercharge a bad unit, it becomes good. While I certainly agree it'd be better to have a good unit that can't be boosted like that, I doubt it'll rock the competitive scene.

This was a pretty competitive build at LVo. I actually played against it twice and it rocked me lost and tied to it. Yeah it went first both times and I nearly came back because he couldn't kill my Castellan. However - now he kills it in 1 turn no issue. Infantry are basically indestructable at an ITC event. You just start them in a building. 20 Noise marines already could wipe most your infantry from the table with aplha strike. This unit did not also need to ability to wipe every primaris off the table turn 1 or just about any 2 large units. This unit is so good there is no reason not to bring 2 also.

Really? Do you have a source for this?

Because 20 Noise Marines without this strat, even with Prescience, VotLW, and EC, kill only about 13 Intercessors.

For reference, that's about two thirds their points value, not including buffing units.

I was playing IG castellan. I would have never brought 1.0 marines to a tournament LOL.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I broke the efficiency down. 20 nice marines kills like 3 primaris marines and it goes to killing 33 with all these buffs. That is a 1000% increase. It goes from dealing 3 wounds to a knight to dealing 38 to a knight. That is over 1000% increase. That is exactly how the progression works. This game is now a joke. Kind of like it always has been. With 130 point smash captains stacking a bunch of abilities and fighting twice and killing 600 point models more or less automatically. No one likes this kind of game play so why do you defend it? GW doesn't even understand the way their game works.

No, it isn't. 3400 points is the equivalent of ten Repulsor Executioners. Your 20-man blob isnt coming anywhere close to that level of firepower, even in your addled scenarios.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I broke the efficiency down. 20 nice marines kills like 3 primaris marines and it goes to killing 33 with all these buffs. That is a 1000% increase. It goes from dealing 3 wounds to a knight to dealing 38 to a knight. That is over 1000% increase. That is exactly how the progression works. This game is now a joke. Kind of like it always has been. With 130 point smash captains stacking a bunch of abilities and fighting twice and killing 600 point models more or less automatically. No one likes this kind of game play so why do you defend it? GW doesn't even understand the way their game works.

No, it isn't. 3400 points is the equivalent of ten Repulsor Executioners. Your 20-man blob isnt coming anywhere close to that level of firepower, even in your addled scenarios.

It makes 20 noise marines shoot like 200 noise marines...does that sound better to you?

 Xenomancers wrote:

It makes 20 noise marines shoot like 200 noise marines...does that sound better to you?

Nope. But keep trying.

Do we have to have "Xenomancer freaks out" as a fixture of Dakka every time a new book is released?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do we have to have "Xenomancer freaks out" as a fixture of Dakka every time a new book is released?

It appears to be a contractual obligation, yes.

Didn't we already have numerous threads in which to discuss Faith & Fury?

I forgot that nids have Noise Marines, Sorcerors, Sonic Blasters, Emperor's Children, Knights, and all the other gak you people are blasting off about in this thread.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Didn't we already have numerous threads in which to discuss Faith & Fury?

I forgot that nids have Noise Marines, Sorcerors, Sonic Blasters, Emperor's Children, Knights, and all the other gak you people are blasting off about in this thread.

It devolved somewhere around Xeno's 'KFF makes your army invulnerable yo!' rant.

Obviously it's now devolved into 'Noise Marines kill 2k points per turn! Why don't you run Sorc Smash?' rant.

Xeno please just stop.

My sides can't take any more of this. I am splitting here. Please, let me catch my breath at least. Tears are streaming down my face and my cheeks are sore from smiling so much.

Your posts are beyond a joke at this point.

They're also wildly off topic which is - Nids in PA3.

I had no idea that Noise Marines were this hidden gem of holy grail power in the CSM codex - why has no one ever run them before??

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I had no idea that Noise Marines were this hidden gem of holy grail power in the CSM codex - why has no one ever run them before??

There is a new strat that makes them D2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

They're also wildly off topic which is - Nids in PA3.

Nids in PA3 = Nids in Power Armor = Noise Marines!

But about those Nids! What's the deal with Mawlocs now? More mortals? I happen to have three of them on my desk half-built.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How many knights should you realistically be able to kill in a turn.

A unit of TH/SS Terminators can take out 3 Gallants with Strats, 4 with Character Support.

 Insectum7 wrote:
But about those Nids! What's the deal with Mawlocs now? More mortals? I happen to have three of them on my desk half-built.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How many knights should you realistically be able to kill in a turn.

A unit of TH/SS Terminators can take out 3 Gallants with Strats, 4 with Character Support.

They have a strat for 1Cp that gives them +2 on the roll for mortal wounds, so it goes from:

1 - Nothing
2-3-4-5 - 1 MW
6 - 3MW

To

1-2-3 1 MW
4-5-6 3 MW

It is going to be lovely against Tau.