Originally posted by Penddraig, then forwarded first by the Age of Darkness Podcast on their Facebook page and then by Berne here on B&C.
Penddraig:
The GW offices at Warhammer World are currently having a massive extension added. As well as new production facilities and warehouse space there is also more room for the various design studios. The plan is once this is constructed, each of the design studios (main GW, Specialist Games, Age of Darkness and Old World) will have more space for the various teams.
This also means that each team will be expanding considerably over the next two years. This will include new rules writers (2 more for Age of Darkness for example) and miniature designers. As part of the re-structuring, Andy Hoare (ex-Heresy rules writer and head of Specialist Games) is now manager of the Specialist Games Studio and the Age of Darkness studio. This role is extremely new so Andy has lots of ideas but nothing has been put into action yet. From personal experience, Andy is a great bloke who has a lot of experience within the hobby; a clear vision of where the company and the game systems can go and also communicates clearly about what is happening (within the usual limits of GW policy).
Future hopes and plans
After a long chat with the Forge World team it’s clear that the new re-structuring is still in early days and we aren’t likely to see much change as customers for the foreseeable future.
However, the team is aware of the main community concerns and hopes. The two key ones they mentioned are:
* A cheap introduction for new players into the 30k games set
* More plastic kits
Neither of these are confirmed as in production or development but the fact that the team are having conversations about these is positive. The team also discussed that by expanding the number of writers, it would be hoped that they could release more than one Heresy-related book a year. Once again, this is future developments so only Book 10 is in current development due to the current size of the team.
One final point that we discussed in a jokey manner was the ‘Heresy is dead’ mindset. It was mentioned that currently Heresy is still producing very healthy sales figures alongside other Specialist Games and the successes of all the games is allowing the company to invest heavily into new facilities and staff. One member of the team stated that there are so many long-plans for the Heresy that they expect that within two years, “everyone will be playing Heresy”.
Alan Bligh's death and the delays with the warehouse / office expansion have messed their production schedule up. I agree there needs to be another 'cheap' plastic box, but there also needs to be cheaper books - specifically the army lists.
My big wonder now is are they going to end it with the Battle of Terra and not run into The Scouring, as originally planned.
beast_gts wrote: Alan Bligh's death and the delays with the warehouse / office expansion have messed their production schedule up. I agree there needs to be another 'cheap' plastic box, but there also needs to be cheaper books - specifically the army lists.
My big wonder now is are they going to end it with the Battle of Terra and not run into The Scouring, as originally planned.
I suspect it'll depend on how much money and intreast is in the HH material once they hit seige of terra
Glad to hear the Ded Gaem Brigade are talking nonsense as per.
That said, at this point I only really want to hear one thing from the AoD team, and that's when they're going to extract thumb from bum and get the sodding campaign books back in stock, ideally in hardback with the same size, format, materials, and quality as the existing ones, or at the very least if they have to switch to softbacks that they will be doing all of them in that format.
When this new facility expansion comes on line it might take them a couple of years to take full advantage of it in terms of plastic production and new team members producing new content, but they can mark out a spot in the expanded warehouse for new print runs of the existing books immediately, and should do so.
I wonder how a Starter Set would look. I think about a bigger form of Start Collecting Box but with Rules and Accesories, not a two Player Starter?
Content could be 20 Tactitcal Marines, 5 Terminators, a new Multi-Part Contemptor Dreadnought and a new Multi-Part Captain/Centurion. Those could be exists in different Versions for the main Legions with Shoulder Parts and Legio specific Weapons and Equipment. Everyone culd choice the Legion he wants to play. Otherwise there could be a Decal Sheet with Icons for all 18 Legions.
A new starter could be a really good time to embiggen Heresy Marines and make everyone buy their armies all over again.
Especially if we're not going to see any of these new developments for another few years. After Specialist Games were rolled out with generous plastic kits and even bringing back the Old World in one way or another, I have a hard time believing Horus Heresy will remain so heavily resin focused. And if they're making new plastic Marines for it, there may not be much of a sense of commitment to continuity on GW's part.
I would like to see HH rules in both 8th and continuing in 7th. I have two friends who play HH and like 7th, but they know about a half a dozen more who prefer 8th. So...both?
And a Start Collecting set would be grand. MK IV and MKII would be my votes. I like the clunky aesthetic of the older armor.
"The demand for new gene-seed led to most Legions using slightly inferior stock, meaning the Space Marines were smaller, and some would say, less capable then their Primaris brethren. This required all new types of arms and equipment to properly kit out the Space Marines. These Space Marines served as the line troops of many Legions, while the more capable Primaris Space Marines formed the vanguard and elite units of the Legions. It has been postulated by the sages of Terra that these smaller Space Marines were more open to the deprivations of Chaos. Indeed, the Heretic Legions, cut off from the Primaris Gene Stocks of Terra continued to use the inferior gene seed throughout the Heresy and after."
Who doesn't like a little retcon once in a while, eh? LOL
Careful there. Didn't Black Library threaten to tell us "what really happened" at the climax of the Siege of Terra? You never know what GW might do.
That said, with the large number of Heresy novels and, if I gathered this correctly, the foundation of Cawl's Primaris program being in the wake of the Horus Heresy (do correct me if I got this wrong, please) I'd expect the Heresy (and possibly the Siege) itself to stay intact but the aftermath getting some Primaris action.
Insurgency Walker wrote:"Everyone will be playing Heresy". Sounds like updating the rules to bring it in line with 8th edition.
This would force me to finish my 30k Salamanders. I already own a decent amount of AOD units but I bought them based on how they look and that I could get more mileage out of them in 40k as well.
Most 40k (astartes) players in my area wouldn't mind picking up 30k as well if it wasn't for 7th ed rules.
Geifer wrote: That said, with the large number of Heresy novels and, if I gathered this correctly, the foundation of Cawl's Primaris program being in the wake of the Horus Heresy (do correct me if I got this wrong, please) I'd expect the Heresy (and possibly the Siege) itself to stay intact but the aftermath getting some Primaris action.
Spoiler:
Cawl gained Ezekiel Sedayne's knowledge (and power) shortly after the Siege of Terra. Guilliman fell during the Battle of Thessala, about 100 years into the Scouring so it's unlikely we'll see anything Primaris apart from very early prototypes.
Interesting that they use “Age of Darkness” and not Horus Heresy. Maybe there is plans for the Heresy follow up into the Scouring. Which would make sense as it ends the last of the characters. If we’re really lucky they might make some non-primaris marine campaigns.
I’m sorry but, no matter how much people try to talk up HH, I refuse to regard it as being in a healthy state as long as there are armies which have never been finished and armies with units out of production.
Ok so despite me taking the piss on HH i actually do like it. it just need some stuff to make it succeed i think
1: Infinitely simpler rules access.
When it was 7th edition, it was east for someone who play 40k to get into HH easier because it removed one more book to buy.
if i wanna get into HH i gotta buy so much. the rule book, the book that has my legion, the book that has my legion and all the legion units.
my idea is to go 100% digital. and have simple, 20$ bundles of your legion rules. wanna play alpha legion? boom 20$ gets you its Rites rule and units. This makes it so you dont have to track down rules. basically make it easiers
2: Start Collecting horus heresy. Maybe they can make a Mk3 and mk4 preator kit and have like 2 of the Start collectings
the Mk4 will have the Mk4 and the Tartaros and the mk3 will have the others.
Boom, Horus heresy exploded when the 2 boxsets came out but then petered off.
3: I dont have a 3rd idea.....but i might.
I want to see them do mk 2 crusader armor, since that offering no longer exists in resin. And early in the heresy that was the most common armor set, especially on istvaan etc. Mk III is just an up armored version for assaults/boarding actions. Not sure why they decided to do that set instead. If they could work that into a new start collecting box that would be great.
If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?
another plastic heresy box'd be great. those should also sell really well because 40k players will buy it too, calath was an AMAZING deal even if you never played HH
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?
Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?
Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.
We definitely don’t need this. It’s bad enough for me to figure out how to fit Primaris marines into my 40k list, and now you want me to fit them into a 30k list with little to no background why they are there.
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?
Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.
people have been fine withg "marinelets" for ages, and they won't change the HH marines for the same reason it took GW so long to do so..
UPGRADE KITS. forge world produces a ton of legion upgrade kits, resized marines will be incompatable with them.
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?
Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.
It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?
Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.
It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.
Togusa wrote: It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.
I'd assume the next unannounced book myself.
At this point it's a pretty simple choice, if you want HH to have a future it's going to get dragged in the direction everything else is going. If you want it to stay as is, it'll die. The projects main driver has died, without him the project's direction will change, and when marines are facing such significant changes in 40k, 30k is either catching up or going by the wayside permanently.
Barring someone who really, really likes squatting marines taking over the project and further fragmenting the lines of space marines available to the point of complete irrelevance to 40k at large. And even now I don't see business side of GW letting that go. Not when they could make money selling you an entire new army of slightly larger marines. Heck, primaris are already using the excuse of imitating HH load outs.
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?
Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.
It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.
Togusa wrote: It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.
I'd assume the next unannounced book myself.
At this point it's a pretty simple choice, if you want HH to have a future it's going to get dragged in the direction everything else is going. If you want it to stay as is, it'll die. The projects main driver has died, without him the project's direction will change, and when marines are facing such significant changes in 40k, 30k is either catching up or going by the wayside permanently.
Barring someone who really, really likes squatting marines taking over the project and further fragmenting the lines of space marines available to the point of complete irrelevance to 40k at large. And even now I don't see business side of GW letting that go. Not when they could make money selling you an entire new army of slightly larger marines. Heck, primaris are already using the excuse of imitating HH load outs.
Absolutely. I guarantee you that they'll retcon it to include Primaris.
Remember when they said the 40K indexes would be valid "forever?"
-Plastic MKII kit (MKVI, and V are wonderfully designed models yet pretty niche outside of a few legions, I see no issue with them staying resin. MKII is not only a sculpt that hasn't aged well, but an armor mark used by EVERY legion at one point)
-A plastic upgrade kit for MKII/MKIII and MKIV that contains jump packs, power weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons.
-Re-release of all MKII MKIV and MKIII armor upgrades.
-A new boxset, no extra board game rules, just models and a mini rule book. Something large to split with a friend and have a considerable force. (5 cataphracti, 5 tartaros, 20 MKIII, 20 MKIV, 20 MKII + a few extras maybe?)
-A newly updated Legiones Astartes army list and Legions red books that add everything that is currently not in said books, and whatever is in book 9 and 10. Include FAQed rules etc.
-Get the Lion and Khan made already. Maybe Emps and a corrupted Horus after?
-A red book dedicated to campaigns in the Age of Darkness, no longer should we have to use rules from 5 Black books, get a universal system down and add to it with each respective Black Book.
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?
Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.
It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.
If you want to cross play your marines then get out your old tactical marines. While the Primaris project started during the heresy it was just a theoretical start not enough for a whole table top army of them. As far as size creep aren’t the Mk3s taller than the 4s?
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
That, or imagine this - people are fine with the HH marines being the size they are, since they look fine in that game and setting?
Sure some people are. But big marines will clearly have a far wider appeal. Chaos marines are big now. Sisters are big. Loyalist marines are now big. Some people won't mind marinelets, far more people won't have them.
It's all but a guarantee that they will reboot with the new size. People will want to crossplay with their marines. Expect to see Primaris retconned into the HH setting within the next decade.
If you want to cross play your marines then get out your old tactical marines. While the Primaris project started during the heresy it was just a theoretical start not enough for a whole table top army of them. As far as size creep aren’t the Mk3s taller than the 4s?
Old Tacticals aren't Primaris, and the future is Primaris.
The future is Primaris. But the Heresy isn't the future, it's the past, and GW seem to have finally grasped the idea that not everything they sell has to be 40K-level popular in order to be viable, it just needs to find its audience and remain profitable.
And as much as it might pain some people to acknowledge, the combination of "people who don't like Primaris", "people who don't like 8th", and "people who really like the Heresy fluff" is sufficiently large to sustain the system.
Now, I'd actually quite like it if they used a new Heresy plastic line as an excuse to drop the dumb "Primaris are actually-bigger than Marines" nonsense and just made Primaris-size and proportion models in classic marks of armour, but I very much doubt they'll do that and even a bump up to the modern Chaos Marine size isn't guaranteed. That said if they retcon the setting to include actual-Primaris, I'm out. Immediately. And I very much doubt I'd be alone in that, because I'm into Heresy for the same reason many people are - it's not 40K.
Putting Primaris into Heresy would be almost as dumb as GW retconning the WHF setting so The Old World can have Stormcast in it, it's a complete misunderstanding of the target market - which, just for once, isn't 40K players.
Thargrim wrote: I want to see them do mk 2 crusader armor, since that offering no longer exists in resin. And early in the heresy that was the most common armor set, especially on istvaan etc. Mk III is just an up armored version for assaults/boarding actions. Not sure why they decided to do that set instead. If they could work that into a new start collecting box that would be great.
Mk3 is ther Main Armour for Death Guard and Iron Hands in the early M31 Horus Heresy..
Making it so that Primaris were used by the Legions before the Heresy would also invalidate every chronological piece of fluff FW or GW have ever written up until and including the Gathering Storm series.
Yodhrin wrote: The future is Primaris. But the Heresy isn't the future, it's the past, and GW seem to have finally grasped the idea that not everything they sell has to be 40K-level popular in order to be viable, it just needs to find its audience and remain profitable.
And as much as it might pain some people to acknowledge, the combination of "people who don't like Primaris", "people who don't like 8th", and "people who really like the Heresy fluff" is sufficiently large to sustain the system.
Now, I'd actually quite like it if they used a new Heresy plastic line as an excuse to drop the dumb "Primaris are actually-bigger than Marines" nonsense and just made Primaris-size and proportion models in classic marks of armour, but I very much doubt they'll do that and even a bump up to the modern Chaos Marine size isn't guaranteed. That said if they retcon the setting to include actual-Primaris, I'm out. Immediately. And I very much doubt I'd be alone in that, because I'm into Heresy for the same reason many people are - it's not 40K.
Putting Primaris into Heresy would be almost as dumb as GW retconning the WHF setting so The Old World can have Stormcast in it, it's a complete misunderstanding of the target market - which, just for once, isn't 40K players.
Absolutely well said. For myself, I am so happy 30k stayed with 7th. I played 8th up until about 3 months ago when, during my last game, I sat there thinking “I’m just not enjoying this game at all” and have pretty much quit 40k altogether and started focusing on 30k and specialist games exclusively. Sold stacks of unpainted 40k models and will clear out the rest in the coming months. At some point, not sure when, I was no longer the target market for 40k. But these other games produced by GW provide me with what I want in a game so they get to keep my money. I doubt I’m the only one that feels this way.
I would expect once Heresy is done for there to be a few post-Terra books to account for the immediate few thousand years afterwards (so the mop-up, War of the Beast, etc). That will allow them to expand the army lists for that point in history to include more of the regular marine offerings, and give them somewhere to live as 40K gradually squeezes the old marine core line out.
Otherwise, they'll probably go backwards to the Great Crusade. Throw out some Eldar and Ork books, for example. Maybe the Lucian Blacks.
Either way, I expect to see MK II armour on the release list somewhere at some point once things are in full swing,
BrianDavion wrote: another plastic heresy box'd be great. those should also sell really well because 40k players will buy it too, calath was an AMAZING deal even if you never played HH
I wonder at that. People didn't buy Betrayal at Calth in such large quantities because it was easy access to 30K, they bought it because it was a lot of Marines for 40K on the cheap. Well, Tacticals aren't getting used in 40K anything like as much as they used to because Primaris for the most part seems to be just better, and if Rise of the Phoenix was anything to go by the era of boxsets offering 50-60% savings on kits is done.
I've thought for a while that the AoD would be a good home for a lot of the non Primaris kits. The mk4 armour in particular is great for mixing parts with the infantry.
BrianDavion wrote: another plastic heresy box'd be great. those should also sell really well because 40k players will buy it too, calath was an AMAZING deal even if you never played HH
I wonder at that. People didn't buy Betrayal at Calth in such large quantities because it was easy access to 30K, they bought it because it was a lot of Marines for 40K on the cheap. Well, Tacticals aren't getting used in 40K anything like as much as they used to because Primaris for the most part seems to be just better, and if Rise of the Phoenix was anything to go by the era of boxsets offering 50-60% savings on kits is done.
I don't know. I barely ever saw any posts from people buying BaC/BoP for the sake of using the models in 40k, nor have I seen many used in 40k games unless the person - usually Night Lords or Iron Warriors - uses the same models in both systems. Most Marine players never lacked for Tacticals or Commanders anyway. Compare that to 70% of Necromunda Enforcer posts being "I'm going to use them as Primaris Scouts."
I don't even care about new models, just a proper imperial army list would be awesome.
The news that the team working on age of darkness will be increased is good to hear. But I'm guessing it will be at least another 18 months before we see any sort of increase in the number of releases we see. A new plastic starter box for AoD is the biggest thing that is needed right now. Basically everyone I know that plays started when the calthclath / prospero boxes were available
I don't even care about new models, just a proper imperial army list would be awesome.
The news that the team working on age of darkness will be increased is good to hear. But I'm guessing it will be at least another 18 months before we see any sort of increase in the number of releases we see. A new plastic starter box for AoD is the biggest thing that is needed right now. Basically everyone I know that plays started when the calthclath / prospero boxes were available
Isn't the Warp Cults and Militia list meant, or usable for, for the Imperial Army?
It’s interesting how much disagreement there is on what 30k should become. I don’t expect 30k fans will agree with me at all on what follows.
Personally I played a lot of 30k during 7th, because it was so much better as a game. I had a large imperial fist army and was working on raven guard. But since 8th edition I haven’t played at all.
Two things changed. I find 8th a far better game generally than 7th, and I much prefer Primaris models.
As a game I don’t think 30k ever really succeeded at becoming what it was supposed to be. All the stories are about marines fighting each other, often with big units shooting bolters at each other and then brutal close combats between them. But on the table 30k features so many units that are so good at massacring marines that it’s simply not viable to field these big units.
That has been the case since betrayal came out and has only worsened, with the introduction of yet more anti-meq weapons and armies like custodes and admech. The marines that the game ought to be about are victims, not protagonists.
Secondly, 30k had the best marine models until, in my opinion, Primaris came out. Overnight I think the appearance of marines in more or less anatomical proportions made the entire previous marine range look stupid. It’s like seeing a child’s drawing with all the mistakes highlighted. I think the problem is biggest with the old 40k range, especially terminators - which have never been anything like the shape of a human. The Primaris range appears to have at least tried to look right, and the difference is striking.
Mandragola wrote: It’s interesting how much disagreement there is on what 30k should become. I don’t expect 30k fans will agree with me at all on what follows.
Personally I played a lot of 30k during 7th, because it was so much better as a game. I had a large imperial fist army and was working on raven guard. But since 8th edition I haven’t played at all.
Two things changed. I find 8th a far better game generally than 7th, and I much prefer Primaris models.
As a game I don’t think 30k ever really succeeded at becoming what it was supposed to be. All the stories are about marines fighting each other, often with big units shooting bolters at each other and then brutal close combats between them. But on the table 30k features so many units that are so good at massacring marines that it’s simply not viable to field these big units.
That has been the case since betrayal came out and has only worsened, with the introduction of yet more anti-meq weapons and armies like custodes and admech. The marines that the game ought to be about are victims, not protagonists.
Secondly, 30k had the best marine models until, in my opinion, Primaris came out. Overnight I think the appearance of marines in more or less anatomical proportions made the entire previous marine range look stupid. It’s like seeing a child’s drawing with all the mistakes highlighted. I think the problem is biggest with the old 40k range, especially terminators - which have never been anything like the shape of a human. The Primaris range appears to have at least tried to look right, and the difference is striking.
I certainly don't agree regarding the superiority of 8th - I don't see how it would address your central problem with the existing Heresy rules anyway, since 8th is more killy than previous editions and those core regular Marines would die off even faster unless they rewrote the rules to such an extent you couldn't really call it 8th anymore at all - but I don't think you'll find a huge amount of opposition to your reasoning about Primaris.
People dislike Primaris because of their more tacticool aesthetic, or because they don't like the visual disparity between them and their existing Marine collection when put down side-by-side on the tabletop, or because of their awful fluff and the way their introduction humped aspects of the 40K setting they liked. It's rare, though, that you'll find people who won't acknowledge their proportions look a lot better than the older Marines. In fact another reason some people dislike them is they make it less likely we'll get "fixed" versions of the traditional Marine.
Bigger, better proportioned Marines aren't the problem, the problem is the specific implementation of that concept.
Now, I'd actually quite like it if they used a new Heresy plastic line as an excuse to drop the dumb "Primaris are actually-bigger than Marines" nonsense and just made Primaris-size and proportion models in classic marks of armour,
Hey, we agree on something!
but I very much doubt they'll do that and even a bump up to the modern Chaos Marine size isn't guaranteed.
Not guaranteed, but very likely. The Chaos Marine size is the new 'old marine' size.
Mandragola wrote: It’s interesting how much disagreement there is on what 30k should become. I don’t expect 30k fans will agree with me at all on what follows.
Personally I played a lot of 30k during 7th, because it was so much better as a game. I had a large imperial fist army and was working on raven guard. But since 8th edition I haven’t played at all.
Two things changed. I find 8th a far better game generally than 7th, and I much prefer Primaris models.
As a game I don’t think 30k ever really succeeded at becoming what it was supposed to be. All the stories are about marines fighting each other, often with big units shooting bolters at each other and then brutal close combats between them. But on the table 30k features so many units that are so good at massacring marines that it’s simply not viable to field these big units.
That has been the case since betrayal came out and has only worsened, with the introduction of yet more anti-meq weapons and armies like custodes and admech. The marines that the game ought to be about are victims, not protagonists.
Secondly, 30k had the best marine models until, in my opinion, Primaris came out. Overnight I think the appearance of marines in more or less anatomical proportions made the entire previous marine range look stupid. It’s like seeing a child’s drawing with all the mistakes highlighted. I think the problem is biggest with the old 40k range, especially terminators - which have never been anything like the shape of a human. The Primaris range appears to have at least tried to look right, and the difference is striking.
I certainly don't agree regarding the superiority of 8th - I don't see how it would address your central problem with the existing Heresy rules anyway, since 8th is more killy than previous editions and those core regular Marines would die off even faster unless they rewrote the rules to such an extent you couldn't really call it 8th anymore at all - but I don't think you'll find a huge amount of opposition to your reasoning about Primaris.
People dislike Primaris because of their more tacticool aesthetic, or because they don't like the visual disparity between them and their existing Marine collection when put down side-by-side on the tabletop, or because of their awful fluff and the way their introduction humped aspects of the 40K setting they liked. It's rare, though, that you'll find people who won't acknowledge their proportions look a lot better than the older Marines. In fact another reason some people dislike them is they make it less likely we'll get "fixed" versions of the traditional Marine.
Bigger, better proportioned Marines aren't the problem, the problem is the specific implementation of that concept.
Well put. We've only recently come to the end of a two year span of people complaining how utterly useless Tactical Marines and Intercessors are. Viability of you core Marines is not a 7th ed or 8th ed problem, it's a problem of GW removing army building restrictions in an effort to let everyone play (and more importantly buy) exactly the models they like regardless of what that does to the appearance of armies and the balance issues that may bring. Furthermore GW has a poor record of making core choices more than a tax to get to the markedly better elite choices even when they had a fairly restrictive FOC in place. Troops becoming a good choice occasionally happens, but more by accident than design.
This isn't going to change because while 40k's roots may be in an adaptation of WW2 by people who grew up with historicals, these days it has transformed into a cinematic experience, and as these things go you can't have the humble, ever present troops do any of the heavy lifting when you're drowning in elites and special forces that try to outdo each other super hero comic style. GW's design paradigm is just not compatible with either real world experience or novelizations that try to draw on it.
As such I wouldn't expect any improvements to regular Marines regardless of what the core rules are based on.
As for the models, what I wouldn't give for Mk.III Marines designed to Primaris proportions.
Ketara wrote: I would expect once Heresy is done for there to be a few post-Terra books to account for the immediate few thousand years afterwards (so the mop-up, War of the Beast, etc). That will allow them to expand the army lists for that point in history to include more of the regular marine offerings, and give them somewhere to live as 40K gradually squeezes the old marine core line out.
I've wondered about this too - I think that MK VII armour was supposed to have been used during the Siege of Terra for the first time, so they wouldn't have to expand very far forward to include it! I'm not sure about MK VIII, but then only a few existing models have MK VIII parts. Perhaps they might release a new Heresy/Siege of Terra MK VII kit at some point when old marines are dropped from 40k.
Geifer wrote: That said, with the large number of Heresy novels and, if I gathered this correctly, the foundation of Cawl's Primaris program being in the wake of the Horus Heresy (do correct me if I got this wrong, please) I'd expect the Heresy (and possibly the Siege) itself to stay intact but the aftermath getting some Primaris action.
Primaris-like marines were always a thing in the Heresy, see Raven Guard/Alpha Legion Raptors and various gene-edited Blackshields (especially these with bonus to statlines were pretty much Primaris alpha version).
Really, they should pull heads out of their arses and lean on 40K models more, not only stop pretending Sanguinary Guard and other Legion formations using Heresy era relics/units from 40K don't exist, but give HH rules to plastic Mortarion and Magnus. These two looked like that on Terra already, FW has no excuse to not spend 5 minutes writing rules seeing all the work had already been done for them.
Please, there were TONS of stuff that was supposedly 40K invention, stuff that was then retconned into HH. Remember how thunder hammers were loyalist only, now in HH and CSM edition? Land Speeders? Storm Shields? Storm Bolters? Modern looking plasma guns/pistols? Modern gloves on power armour, instead of ones looking like on old CSM kits?
Really, I wouldn't be surprised if Land Raider Crusader and Centurions were retconned into HH in the next FW book...
RazorEdge wrote: It was mentioned that currently Heresy is still producing very healthy sales figures
Did it occur to these clowns that maybe, just maybe they have any sales at all is thanks to the fact 90% of their output is SM? And guess what 40K book came out recently, complete with supplements heavily pushing said variant SM, throwing a lifeline to a team that doesn't deserve it at all? Especially seeing I'd bet half of these sales is only due to broken SM junk being spammed by WAAC types?
I like how they can say this with a straight face after they started mass LCTB SM upgrade packs (due to competition with much better and cheaper plastic ones?) and Mechanicus stuff (gee, if only there was one supposedly finished book that would massively boost sales some lazy idiots can't even send to printer) due to lack of sales. Healthy, you say?
I also bet sales would be vastly larger if they did what Alan wanted to do and dumped the crap rule set that nearly managed to sink 40K and went with 8th edition (if only because a lot of people used to invest into side HH army to play it in 40K thanks to common rules due to lack of HH players around), but alas, they seem hell bent on throwing more money into that bottomless pit to not admit their mistake...
Yodhrin wrote: And as much as it might pain some people to acknowledge, the combination of "people who don't like Primaris", "people who don't like 8th", and "people who really like the Heresy fluff" is sufficiently large to sustain the system.
In vegetative-like state, with no new releases, constant LCTBs, and the line not being squatted only due to pity money thrown by 40K players who stuck to Codex SM in the two years of it being bad? Yup, we saw how the group who can't be bothered to learn new, much better system due to 'they changed it so it suxxx' syndrome can ""support"" HH as a game in the last three years, thank you very much
Yodhrin wrote: I certainly don't agree regarding the superiority of 8th - I don't see how it would address your central problem with the existing Heresy rules anyway, since 8th is more killy than previous editions
Yup, 8th is bad, and that's why GW sales break records for the third year in a row and HH nosedived in sales and popularity since the exceedingly dumb, Alan wish breaking decision to remain in 7th was taken. Yuppers.
As for 8th being more killy, you know you won't have broken stuff like things Tau and Eldar spam in HH, right? Really, you could take existing SM supplements, replace superdoctrines with Rites of War, there, you have 90% of the work needed for HH done.
People dislike Primaris because of their more tacticool aesthetic
Which is hilarious when it comes to HH players because 95% of Primaris look was based on HH. What is the difference between Mor Deythan/Headhunters and Primaris Eliminators? Literally nothing. Legion plasma support squad and Hellblasters? Zero. Mk IV and Mk X? So small most people wouldn't tell them apart. Really, I could (maybe) understand someone attracted to flanderized, rubbish-encrusted marines of 40K not liking primaris look, but HH players not liking them mostly act like spoiled three year old children
I don't even care about new models, just a proper imperial army list would be awesome.
The news that the team working on age of darkness will be increased is good to hear. But I'm guessing it will be at least another 18 months before we see any sort of increase in the number of releases we see. A new plastic starter box for AoD is the biggest thing that is needed right now. Basically everyone I know that plays started when the calthclath / prospero boxes were available
Isn't the Warp Cults and Militia list meant, or usable for, for the Imperial Army?
Not exactly. Militia represent local planetary defence forces cobbled together or barely organised cultists. You can absolutely use them to represent the Army, but they're not Imperial Army regulars. It's the opposite of how you can use the Imperial Guard to represent PDF.
There was an interview floating around from one of the recent(ish) Weekenders where FW said they'd like to do an Imperial Army Regulars list. Presumably it's faaar down the priorities, but if/when we get a Tallarn book I could see it happening there. The question is going to be if we'll see any dedicated kits for it beyond a few shared SA/Militia/Army armoured vehicles, especially with FW's willingness to indulge in plastics more these days and potential Guard players scooping them up for conversions.
Mandragola wrote: It’s interesting how much disagreement there is on what 30k should become. I don’t expect 30k fans will agree with me at all on what follows.
Personally I played a lot of 30k during 7th, because it was so much better as a game. I had a large imperial fist army and was working on raven guard. But since 8th edition I haven’t played at all.
Two things changed. I find 8th a far better game generally than 7th, and I much prefer Primaris models.
As a game I don’t think 30k ever really succeeded at becoming what it was supposed to be. All the stories are about marines fighting each other, often with big units shooting bolters at each other and then brutal close combats between them. But on the table 30k features so many units that are so good at massacring marines that it’s simply not viable to field these big units.
That has been the case since betrayal came out and has only worsened, with the introduction of yet more anti-meq weapons and armies like custodes and admech. The marines that the game ought to be about are victims, not protagonists.
Secondly, 30k had the best marine models until, in my opinion, Primaris came out. Overnight I think the appearance of marines in more or less anatomical proportions made the entire previous marine range look stupid. It’s like seeing a child’s drawing with all the mistakes highlighted. I think the problem is biggest with the old 40k range, especially terminators - which have never been anything like the shape of a human. The Primaris range appears to have at least tried to look right, and the difference is striking.
I certainly don't agree regarding the superiority of 8th - I don't see how it would address your central problem with the existing Heresy rules anyway, since 8th is more killy than previous editions and those core regular Marines would die off even faster unless they rewrote the rules to such an extent you couldn't really call it 8th anymore at all - but I don't think you'll find a huge amount of opposition to your reasoning about Primaris.
People dislike Primaris because of their more tacticool aesthetic, or because they don't like the visual disparity between them and their existing Marine collection when put down side-by-side on the tabletop, or because of their awful fluff and the way their introduction humped aspects of the 40K setting they liked. It's rare, though, that you'll find people who won't acknowledge their proportions look a lot better than the older Marines. In fact another reason some people dislike them is they make it less likely we'll get "fixed" versions of the traditional Marine.
Bigger, better proportioned Marines aren't the problem, the problem is the specific implementation of that concept.
For what it’s worth, I think deathwatch/heroes/chaos marines have much better proportions than Primaris. Primaris look more like an unaugmented human in power armour than an inhumanly broad Astartes.
Ketara wrote: I would expect once Heresy is done for there to be a few post-Terra books to account for the immediate few thousand years afterwards (so the mop-up, War of the Beast, etc). That will allow them to expand the army lists for that point in history to include more of the regular marine offerings, and give them somewhere to live as 40K gradually squeezes the old marine core line out.
I've wondered about this too - I think that MK VII armour was supposed to have been used during the Siege of Terra for the first time, so they wouldn't have to expand very far forward to include it! I'm not sure about MK VIII, but then only a few existing models have MK VIII parts. Perhaps they might release a new Heresy/Siege of Terra MK VII kit at some point when old marines are dropped from 40k.
Well, so long as you subscribe to the idea that they're gradually phasing out traditional marines in favour of Primaris, it makes sense both from a in-game and real-life chronological perspective. We know that Games Workshop is struggling to find shelf-space for their kits these days, and it's really quite apparent that Primaris are the future for Space Marine releases. All the characters are gradually being primarisified, and the Primaris have gradually gone from being one generic list to an equal standing to the traditional marines over the last few years. New units to replace the Rhino, dreadnought, land raider, and so on. If things carry on, I would expect to see the bog standard classic marine units reduced to a generic single list in the next Space Marine codex with Primaris being the assumed default.
But that leaves Games Workshop with a problem; namely, how do you finally excise the traditional marines for good? They look poor compared to Primaris, don't fit the lore moving forward. and clog up valuable shelf space. If you flat out eliminate them, people will complain vociferously. Too many players own classic marines. You can't just tell them to 'count as' Primaris because the weapon and rule loadouts are too different (grav tanks, ten plasma gun squads, etc).
So what's the obvious answer? Simple. Move them to the 30K game. If we assume that this is happening another edition or two from now, we're talking three to six years probably. By that time, Forgeworld can wrap up the Siege of Terra and look at what comes next. It would be child's play at that stage to release a new batch of lists on the basis of 30-39K gaming. You can move all the generic marine line across to Forgeworld and specialist gaming, get them off the shop shelves, and still leave them usable somewhere for people who want to keep playing them. Run a Forgeworld campaign around the War of the Beast which shows the classic chapters all using armour of several marksor something to cement them, et voila.
The classic marines are now specialist and '30k' is now just 'Pre-Guilliman' or some other more inclusive tag. Simple, easy, and effective.
If forgeworld could make a decent ulanor book I think adding orks would be awesome but would have to be handled carefully. I honestly eventually wouldn't mind eldar and even necrons added if both are handled well. What makes 30k work is there is still a force org, it starts at 1750ps and lords of war are indexed to the overall size of the game. It's not perfect but it's better than 8th in about every conceivable way possible and it even has rules for terrain, imagine that. New plastics would be a welcome addition and likely just as popular as the last two boxes. They'll also have the ability to push zone mortalis now that it's plastic, although a 4x4 still seems just as portability expensive.
Irbis wrote: Did it occur to these clowns that maybe, just maybe they have any sales at all is thanks to the fact 90% of their output is SM? And guess what 40K book came out recently, complete with supplements heavily pushing said variant SM, throwing a lifeline to a team that doesn't deserve it at all? Especially seeing I'd bet half of these sales is only due to broken SM junk being spammed by WAAC types?
Pretty much every sentence in your post should have started with, "I feel that..." because everything you've written is emotionally loaded conjecture. The original post quotes that sales figures for the game are healthy, so why come in and spew all your feelings about primaris and eighth edition? People who want those things can play 40k and people who want to play 30k can continue to play the game they've been playing.
This is a thread on the existing horus heresy game proceeding forward as it is. Let it be that.
JWBS wrote: If they release another plastic Heresy set they'll have to upscale the marines to be proportionate to Primaris. Marinelets won't sell anymore, at least not in numbers.
Well that means new marines would have to be feet shorter than primaris marines are. After all space marines are 7, primaris 8 feet.
After a few years, it also became as bloated as was the 7th
of late (which was one of the reason they dropped it if I remember correctly) ,
and you just need more and more books by the day.
Then the primaris thing. No, just no (for me).
I just hope That HH will keep a separate road, because this version of 40K almost made me drop the game, and I was playing it since de Rogue Trader days.
I also bet sales would be vastly larger if they did what Alan wanted to do and dumped the crap rule set that nearly managed to sink 40K and went with 8th edition (if only because a lot of people used to invest into side HH army to play it in 40K thanks to common rules due to lack of HH players around), but alas, they seem hell bent on throwing more money into that bottomless pit to not admit their mistake...
Whilst I take issue with almost everything you've said, the above is certainly the point I have the biggest annoyance with.
Alan NEVER intended to bring the Heresy to 8th edition. He intended, drafted and playtested an entirely different version of the game with an entirely different turn sequence.
Your entire post was plucked from thin air and personal bias.
8th edition as is HH or Primaris in HH and I would be done with GW altogether. I am not the only one in my group that feels like that, and we are/were, before the delays, significant spenders on HH/GW.
I am sure either of those options would attract new people into HH who wouldn't normally play it, but it would also push out a fair few people who have been in HH a long time.
You will never get Primaris sized 30k marines, as Primaris are specifically larger in the fluff than standard space marines.
Some newer heresy marine models are slightly taller like the deathwatch/space marine heroes/new CSM sizing, that's probably the best you can hope for in 30k if you like oversized marine models.
Actual Primaris appearing in 30k is an absurd suggestion
robbienw wrote: You will never get Primaris sized 30k marines, as Primaris are specifically larger in the fluff than standard space marines.
Some newer heresy marine models are slightly taller like the deathwatch/space marine heroes/new CSM sizing, that's probably the best you can hope for in 30k if you like oversized marine models.
Actual Primaris appearing in 30k is an absurd suggestion
I agree the better proportioned marines are the new standard for standard sized marines, but I can't help but think they may just stick to the old scale to avoid any of the backward compatibility issues that might arise from abruptly changing standards. That said I think when you look at the different marks of armor sets we had before most of those were undersized compared to the plastic HH minis we did get so it would be worthwhile for them to consider slowly fixing the scale up to the new standard.
That said, in the lore there are a number of marines specifically mentioned as being noticeably taller than other marines and I don't think it'd be too bad if some minis were in fact taller than standard without being a full-on character.
After a few years, it also became as bloated as was the 7th
of late (which was one of the reason they dropped it if I remember correctly) ,
and you just need more and more books by the day.
Then the primaris thing. No, just no (for me).
I just hope That HH will keep a separate road, because this version of 40K almost made me drop the game, and I was playing it since de Rogue Trader days.
I dunno, I'm learning the opposite.
You don't seem to need any of the books outside of the codex and the CA content. The formations from VA and VD for example, I've never seen then used except for once. I do see the SM supplements being used a lot in my local group, but given out of around 40 players 29 of them play marines, that's not too surprising.
Personally at its base, I love 8th edition. Since it came out, I no longer have 4 hour long games where 25% of the game is spent arguing over which armor facing the autocannon can see. Or how many soldiers are under the stupid template. Or who does and doesn't get cover.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
robbienw wrote: You will never get Primaris sized 30k marines, as Primaris are specifically larger in the fluff than standard space marines.
Some newer heresy marine models are slightly taller like the deathwatch/space marine heroes/new CSM sizing, that's probably the best you can hope for in 30k if you like oversized marine models.
Actual Primaris appearing in 30k is an absurd suggestion
Except that GW will do it eventually when they learn they can make the HH community buy their armies all over again. Don't be surprised if Primaris come to HH some day.
No, not primaris-sized. EVEN BIGGER! Like they should re-release the entire HH line in 48mm true-scale fully anatomically accurate. Then they can add an explanation that the battle between Horus and the Emperor released such titanic forces that it actually shrank the entire universe 40%. Yes, that means 40k primaris marines are actually like 4'9" in today's measurements. Deal with it.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: No, not primaris-sized. EVEN BIGGER! Like they should re-release the entire HH line in 48mm true-scale fully anatomically accurate. Then they can add an explanation that the battle between Horus and the Emperor released such titanic forces that it actually shrank the entire universe 40%. Yes, that means 40k primaris marines are actually like 4'9" in today's measurements. Deal with it.
As much as I want Inquisitor back, don't give them any ideas...
While I would welcome new primaris-sized Marine models, I am much more interested in having models that are properly portioned than anything else. I want them to look cool and "right" rather than just going for the increased size. Not sure how viable just up-scaling the base marines would be, given that every single model would need to be changed (including the Primarchs). Far easier to just release better proportioned models, honestly.
Not really interested in switching to 8th edition as I do not think it would make the game better. Not that 7th edition is really my jam either (I would prefer to go back to 5th edition as a base then fix its inherent flaws and add the newer unit types (like flyers)). I do not think 8th edition would fix the real issue people have with 30k - the fact that big blobs of marines are not viable in the game (like they are in the novels). 8th edition would make it worse since AP is so much more detrimental to Marines and the sheer amount of damage thrown around in the 8th edition rules vastly outstrips what you can do in 7th/30k.
I don't even care about new models, just a proper imperial army list would be awesome.
The news that the team working on age of darkness will be increased is good to hear. But I'm guessing it will be at least another 18 months before we see any sort of increase in the number of releases we see. A new plastic starter box for AoD is the biggest thing that is needed right now. Basically everyone I know that plays started when the calthclath / prospero boxes were available
Isn't the Warp Cults and Militia list meant, or usable for, for the Imperial Army?
Not exactly. Militia represent local planetary defence forces cobbled together or barely organised cultists. You can absolutely use them to represent the Army, but they're not Imperial Army regulars. It's the opposite of how you can use the Imperial Guard to represent PDF.
There was an interview floating around from one of the recent(ish) Weekenders where FW said they'd like to do an Imperial Army Regulars list. Presumably it's faaar down the priorities, but if/when we get a Tallarn book I could see it happening there. The question is going to be if we'll see any dedicated kits for it beyond a few shared SA/Militia/Army armoured vehicles, especially with FW's willingness to indulge in plastics more these days and potential Guard players scooping them up for conversions.
This. The current lists are far too limiting. I have two guard armies, valhallen artillery and steel legion mechanised. Neither of these can be represented using the current lists. For some reason none of the chimera hull vehicles have made it in to AoD, though the marines have rhino hull versions of the basilisk etc?
I don't expect to see a full army list until we get a tallarn book, which would mainly be tanked based, if it follows the fluff. This must be a couple of years down the line at least.
The constant 8th arguments really grate on me. The only people that want HH to be 8th based are 8th players. All the 30k players I know / have meet are happy with the age of darkness rule set being it's own thing. Most just wish they had changed the psychic phase when they released the AOD rule book. We won't see primaries marines in the HH for the same reason we don't see Razorbacks, they didn't exist at the time.
Forge world treat HH for what it is, a historical war game, all be it set in a fictional universe. Tony cotteral has described it as such multiple times now.
Alpharius wrote: I'd be all for a couple of 'Great Crusade' era books - play all the Legions before things got dumb AND add in a bunch of Xenos?
Yes, please!
They even have the major fluff points they can explore too. You have the Rangdan Xenocides that could bring a completely different xenos archetype and army style that could also really let FW flex their sculpting abilities beyond more rhino hull panels. We can see the disparity between the Ork empires of Gorro and Ullanor to that of 40k and even for Eldar you can show some of them before they fully developed into the Path archetype for Craftworlders and Exodites as well.
Togusa wrote: Except that GW will do it eventually when they learn they can make the HH community buy their armies all over again. Don't be surprised if Primaris come to HH some day.
Nah. Their business plan is all about selling expensive characters, vehicles, Titans, and other centerpiece models to 'whale' customers. We'll get 18 new versions of Primarchs, three new classes of Titans, and two dozen more Predator/Sicaran/Spartan/etc. variants before any kind of 'updated' SM for 30K. They don't even want to support the SM armor marks and upgrade kits they used to have.
Alpharius wrote: I'd be all for a couple of 'Great Crusade' era books - play all the Legions before things got dumb AND add in a bunch of Xenos?
Yes, please!
*BUZZ* Incorrect. The right answer was Unification Wars...Unification Wars.
Togusa wrote: Except that GW will do it eventually when they learn they can make the HH community buy their armies all over again. Don't be surprised if Primaris come to HH some day.
Nah. Their business plan is all about selling expensive characters, vehicles, Titans, and other centerpiece models to 'whale' customers. We'll get 18 new versions of Primarchs, three new classes of Titans, and two dozen more Predator/Sicaran/Spartan/etc. variants before any kind of 'updated' SM for 30K. They don't even want to support the SM armor marks and upgrade kits they used to have.
I think it has more to do with FW being forced to become the Specialist Games Studio and needing the warehouse space to properly stock items for all those games, in addtion to everything FW was already doing. Plus, they did not kill popular kits. The things they removed were niche. I am sure they will rotate things back into production over time.
Togusa wrote: Except that GW will do it eventually when they learn they can make the HH community buy their armies all over again. Don't be surprised if Primaris come to HH some day.
Nah. Their business plan is all about selling expensive characters, vehicles, Titans, and other centerpiece models to 'whale' customers. We'll get 18 new versions of Primarchs, three new classes of Titans, and two dozen more Predator/Sicaran/Spartan/etc. variants before any kind of 'updated' SM for 30K. They don't even want to support the SM armor marks and upgrade kits they used to have.
I think it has more to do with FW being forced to become the Specialist Games Studio and needing the warehouse space to properly stock items for all those games, in addtion to everything FW was already doing. Plus, they did not kill popular kits. The things they removed were niche. I am sure they will rotate things back into production over time.
I imagine there's some truth to that regarding warehousing. Still, FW's focus for 30K seems pretty clearly to be on the 'big stuff'. And Mk.2 armor is hardly niche for 30K, right? This contrasts with GW, for which SM churn is very important.
robbienw wrote: You will never get Primaris sized 30k marines, as Primaris are specifically larger in the fluff than standard space marines.
Some newer heresy marine models are slightly taller like the deathwatch/space marine heroes/new CSM sizing, that's probably the best you can hope for in 30k if you like oversized marine models.
Actual Primaris appearing in 30k is an absurd suggestion
Except that GW will do it eventually when they learn they can make the HH community buy their armies all over again. Don't be surprised if Primaris come to HH some day.
That won't make the HH community buy their armies all over again; it would just make them not buy anything again due to the fact it would be absurd. It would require wholesale retconning of the heresy fluff and all the 40k fluff on Primaris marines to artificially crowbar them in. I won't be surprised because it not going to happen
Togusa wrote: Except that GW will do it eventually when they learn they can make the HH community buy their armies all over again. Don't be surprised if Primaris come to HH some day.
Nah. Their business plan is all about selling expensive characters, vehicles, Titans, and other centerpiece models to 'whale' customers. We'll get 18 new versions of Primarchs, three new classes of Titans, and two dozen more Predator/Sicaran/Spartan/etc. variants before any kind of 'updated' SM for 30K. They don't even want to support the SM armor marks and upgrade kits they used to have.
Alpharius wrote: I'd be all for a couple of 'Great Crusade' era books - play all the Legions before things got dumb AND add in a bunch of Xenos?
Yes, please!
*BUZZ* Incorrect. The right answer was Unification Wars...Unification Wars.
Well, that'd be OK too - but not a lot of Xenos there?
But I'd bet there would be some hella awesome straight up weird gak on Terra at that time - that would be cool to see...
Maybe they could explore the time travel angle to introduce primaris marines to 30k. Like maybe Cawl utilizes some Necron technology to send Roboute Guilliman back in time to save the Emperor. So Guilliman has to find 30k Cawl and convince him that he's actually 40k Guilliman from the future and that they need to activate the Primaris marines like RIGHT NOW. Needless to say, shenanigans ensue. 40k Guilliman has to go to Macragge, defeat Curze and retrieve Sanguinius all while avoiding 30k Guilliman in some hilariously staged set pieces (why's Guilliman dressed as a woman???) and make their way back to Terra to get on board the Vengeful Spirit. It culminates with Guilliman climbing around in the rafters trying to drop those sand bags on Omegon and get the sports almanac back while Sanguinius duels Horus below!
Tamereth wrote: We won't see primaries marines in the HH for the same reason we don't see Razorbacks, they didn't exist at the time.
When the Vindicator was introduced in 40k that went along with a background piece that placed its STC discovery a couple of decades after the Horus Heresy. Yet checking the Horus Heresy portion of Forge World's website reveals...
I don't honestly see Primaris Marines making an appearance in the Horus Heresy proper, but I don't think it's as simple as pointing to established background for ruling anything out. From the close enough Vindicator the the full retcon of Necrons, GW has proven without any doubt that they won't let existing background material get in the way of new material. Imagine the following:
GW is has remade 40k Marines into Primaris for whatever reasons, and want to bring their new favorites into the Horus Heresy. The foundation is laid in the Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium where as previously pointed out (thanks for that!) a hundred years after the Heresy they write Primaris or proto-Primaris into the background. Then they'll go and restructure the Horus Heresy from its narrow setting into the Age of Darkness, covering the Horus Heresy, the Scouring (to find a home for Primaris), and the Great Crusade (possibly with Unification Wars if they want to sell us Thunder Warriors, too). Nobody minded that in 40k you had ten thousand years of history and yet if you wanted to stay fluffy with your Tyranids, you couldn't set your games before 745M41. In the same way you could argue that while Primaris won't have a place in the Horus Heresy or the Great Crusade or even much of the Scouring, because the faction existed at one point in this rather large time span, the model line has a right to exist in the game. Which is all GW needs.
You could then argue that with their new, shiny redone with better proportions Marine army as a legit model line in the section, a company that boasts making the best toy soldiers in the world won't let second rate Marine models coexist with their Primaris. That opens the door for redone classic armors with better proportions akin to what Chaos Marines got in spring. Everyone's like, Mk.II is a staple of Crusade and Heresy army, so plenty of people are going to buy them. Of course they're in a new scale and people may not be happy with their old midget Mk.III and Mk.IV Marines anymore. Some will completely switch to new improved Mk.II, other don't like the scale difference, but that won't be a problem anymore once GW remakes the existing marks in the new scale as well. If you want to expand your army and can't stand differing scales in your army, you'll either rebuy larger parts of it or quit.
I could see GW go about things in this way. We're getting the Old World back and it's announced in such a way that suggests GW will commit considerable resources to it to make is successful. It's certainly seems to have worked out for them with Specialist Games. Now we have this rumor that promises a bright future for the Age of Darkness and I can't help but think this means GW has big plans for it, which to me suggests a considerable amount of plastic and, in this day an age of Primaris and better proportioned other models, not using subpar relics of the past as the poster boys of the setting and game.
Geifer wrote: When the Vindicator was introduced in 40k that went along with a background piece that placed its STC discovery a couple of decades after the Horus Heresy. Yet checking the Horus Heresy portion of Forge World's website reveals...
Lots of stuff used by the Legions was 'lost' during or after the Heresy, only to be rediscovered later on (although my headcanon is that Cawl had something to do with Centurion Warsuits).
Anyway, getting back on-topic - the next book is on it's way The Road to Thramas – Part 1: Wings of the Dark Angels. I like the plasma guys but they have a very silly name (Dreadwing Interemptors) and I dread to think how much they'll cost, and I'm undecided on the tank (Legion Arquitor Bombard) - but it does look like a Plagueburst Crawler.
I think people are being a bit too optimistic regarding plastic kits. Considering the cost of manufacturing new moulds for them, I can't see a great deal more being made for the HH.
blood reaper wrote: I think people are being a bit too optimistic regarding plastic kits. Considering the cost of manufacturing new moulds for them, I can't see a great deal more being made for the HH.
People need to remember that GW's entire plastics pipeline is in-house, including milling the molds. If they can afford to tool plastic molds for Ambots and Kal Jericho & Scabbs, they can afford to do it for the basic infantry of an entire game system/setting. Whether they will or not is another thing, but if they don't it won't be because of the cost to them.
blood reaper wrote: I think people are being a bit too optimistic regarding plastic kits. Considering the cost of manufacturing new moulds for them, I can't see a great deal more being made for the HH.
People need to remember that GW's entire plastics pipeline is in-house, including milling the molds. If they can afford to tool plastic molds for Ambots and Kal Jericho & Scabbs, they can afford to do it for the basic infantry of an entire game system/setting. Whether they will or not is another thing, but if they don't it won't be because of the cost to them.
But there already are two different sets of plastic HH basic PA marines.
blood reaper wrote: I think people are being a bit too optimistic regarding plastic kits. Considering the cost of manufacturing new moulds for them, I can't see a great deal more being made for the HH.
People need to remember that GW's entire plastics pipeline is in-house, including milling the molds. If they can afford to tool plastic molds for Ambots and Kal Jericho & Scabbs, they can afford to do it for the basic infantry of an entire game system/setting. Whether they will or not is another thing, but if they don't it won't be because of the cost to them.
I also think that with the increased prevalence of recasts, FW moving to plastics might provide some advantages that might spurn pirates. Plus durability and maintenance is probably lower as the moulds aren't as sensitive compared to the resin moulds.
blood reaper wrote: I think people are being a bit too optimistic regarding plastic kits. Considering the cost of manufacturing new moulds for them, I can't see a great deal more being made for the HH.
People need to remember that GW's entire plastics pipeline is in-house, including milling the molds. If they can afford to tool plastic molds for Ambots and Kal Jericho & Scabbs, they can afford to do it for the basic infantry of an entire game system/setting. Whether they will or not is another thing, but if they don't it won't be because of the cost to them.
I also think that with the increased prevalence of recasts, FW moving to plastics might provide some advantages that might spurn pirates. Plus durability and maintenance is probably lower as the moulds aren't as sensitive compared to the resin moulds.
if GW wanted to make everything in plastic they could. The community may not like the pricing for it tho as the kits would probably cost the same as resin or more since they will invariably add more detail/options/whatever.
They have the technology, they have the will, do they have the guts? I hope that they do something to say feth off to recasters.
At the moment FW couldn't do it all in plastic, the GW plastic pipeline is overfilled at the moment (one reason some terrain is cast in china)
the holdup is machine time/no of machines more than money which is the big problem for small independants as they have to pay 3rd party rates for sculpting/parting out/mould making & casting.
Doing it in house GW cuts a lot of these costs but there is still a limit which is how many new moulds can they cut and refine (and that's not quick) and how many new sprues can the make each month while still producing all their older stuff (balancing holding stock in the warehouse with warhousing costs and space)
now when the factory & warehouse expansions (and the electricity grid fix) are done they might have spare capacity, but given the number of shortages & specialist games they now have going it might be they'll just be comfortable again
I'll believe in more plastic 30K marines when I see them. I don't think the demand is really there for a game with a very small but loyal customer base that isn't growing.
Whilst I can see a possible demand for Mk.II, I dunno it there's enough of a demand out there to justify a Mk.VI and especially a Mk.V set of plastic Marines.
And I say that as someone who really likes Mk.V (I might be the only one!).
I'd love to get a plastic set of HH armor marks reproportioned to primaris style. I'd be fine with them staying the original height though so as not to cause confusion. If they can tool sprues for single figs only available one year at special events, they could do it for a HH themed board game box too.
I'll also second the wish for a Great Crusade pre-Heresy expansion as well.
Edit: Android "auto" correct is equally over aggressive as it is stupid.
And I say that as someone who really likes Mk.V (I might be the only one!).
You are not, I really like it as well; probably my favourite old-marine armour mark.
Agreed. Mark V for us heretics! I don't think a lot of people understand just how many people like using the hh marks for 40k.
I use hh marks for all my chosen/terror squads.
I had planned for my Space Wolves to use Mk.II and III for long fangs, Mk.IV and V for grey hunters, and Mk.VI and VII for blood claws. So the two box games gave me a solid start on this.
And I say that as someone who really likes Mk.V (I might be the only one!).
I don't understand why they even make non-MkV miniatures. Everything else is so ugly. Especially the MkIV. The helmet on that thing is just awful.
I suspect you'rte in the minority, the MK X armor is clearly based on the MK IV helm and I bet GW did it because market studies showed it was the favorite.
And I say that as someone who really likes Mk.V (I might be the only one!).
I don't understand why they even make non-MkV miniatures. Everything else is so ugly. Especially the MkIV. The helmet on that thing is just awful.
Although I personally like the mark IV helm that's why you switch out to the helm of your legion of choice. Heretics should be encouraged to mix/match different marks.
BrianDavion wrote: I suspect you'rte in the minority, the MK X armor is clearly based on the MK IV helm and I bet GW did it because market studies showed it was the favorite.
Another reason I don't like Primaris Marines: I'm not a fan of Mk.IV armour.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Whilst I can see a possible demand for Mk.II, I dunno it there's enough of a demand out there to justify a Mk.VI and especially a Mk.V set of plastic Marines.
And I say that as someone who really likes Mk.V (I might be the only one!).
Iirc the last tactical squad box had the parts for two complete suits of corvus mk vi armor. Assault squad has at least one complete set. And I think there are enough parts for for a complete veteran suit in both the stern guard and vanguard kits.
If they were going to do a new plastic box, they dont need terminators again. A squad of 3 outsiders in plastic could take their place. And maybe a rapier carrier in place of the big model.
That's true. Mk.VI isn't hard to do from the existing kits, so much so that they'd probably never need to do a full kit (unless they go full-retro and give them RT-era style weapons including the original bolters).
they'll wanna go with something that is used in 40k as well to maximize sales, they could even do a mix, such as a MK VI assault squad, a MK III Heavy weapons squad, and a MK V tac squad.
or they could do something like a special weapons squad, which would be a popular source for special weapons among 40k marine players
BrianDavion wrote: they'll wanna go with something that is used in 40k as well to maximize sales...
Well there's the kicker. It ain't Primaris, so...
eh basic "old marines" are still in use now, maybe in ten years they won't be, but put out a pack of MK VI assault marines, just for example, and you'll see a lot of people buy it. (raven guard players will go absolutely nuts in partiuclar)
Plastic MkII armour would be an auto-buy for me. It's my favourite Mk of armour and it pains me to no end that FW discontinued it.
Were they to do a battle box similar to BaC/BoP that tied in with the upcoming Thramas Crusade book, then I think it'd do well.
It could also open up some interesting choices for them to do in plastic. As mentioned above, they've done both termintors Mks. A plastic contemptor is also done.
Given the nature of Night Lords, I think an assault squad wouldn't be out of the question. But it could also present an interesting opportunity to do some plastic jetbikes maybe. Whether they be a rehash of the FW jetbikes (which would be awesome) or a new take on something like the old Bullock jetcycles or something similar to Sammaels jetbike.
This could even be a good way for them to get out a plastic Deimos rhino. The whole box could be based around fast moving, hit 'n' run "chase" style battle.
I think we'd be looking at something along the lines of...
-MkII Praetor on foot.
-30 suits of MkII armour
-3 Jetbikes
-5 Assault marines or a transport option.
+ another HQ option of some description. (Hopefully generic HQ options, as the legion specific HQs in BoP were a bit of disappointment.)
Compare that to BaC which was
-Terminator Praetor
-Consul (chaplain)
-30 MkIV
-5 Cataphractii
-1 Dreadnought.
and BoP which had
-2 consuls(?)
-30 MkIII
-5 Terminators
-10 Custodes/Sisters of silence.
I would suggest, fairly strongly, that there will never be primaris in Horus Heresy. (although I've been considering using some of them as the basis for Gal Vorbak conversions as they're a closer size to those models).
As to plastics in HH, specialist games are a sizeable offshoot of Forge World, not Citadel, and they've produced a large number of plastic basic kits with support/expansion pieces in resin. It's not unreasonable to see similar in the future for the HH, along the lines of basic marines and small vehicles.
And, lastly, and I suggest this very strongly indeed, there will not be any conversion of the Heresy to 40k 8th edition. The two games have gone their separate ways, this frees the HH writers to cherrypick what they like and ignore what they don't like in rules going forward.
Quick question, sort of regarding Primaris and HH.
Are there rules for the Raptor Marines that Corvus Corax was making? I know originally they were just bigger, tougher Marines without any extra organs and we're later corrupted/mutated monsters.
Maybe they could be represented with Primaris proportioned Marines in older marks of armor?
Primaris in 30k? Never
A hypothetical reboot in physical size / proportions of an entire line of armor marks? Again, never going to happen.
I'd actually buy in again and stop using the few old school minis if I could get an entire realistically sized set of Astartes and Army and Agents. However I don't play GW rules anymore with my stuff anyways so I am not anything like their target audience.
Carnikang wrote: Quick question, sort of regarding Primaris and HH.
Are there rules for the Raptor Marines that Corvus Corax was making? I know originally they were just bigger, tougher Marines without any extra organs and we're later corrupted/mutated monsters.
Maybe they could be represented with Primaris proportioned Marines in older marks of armor?
A hypothetical reboot in physical size / proportions of an entire line of armor marks? Again, never going to happen.
So what's the big thing that will mean "Everyone is going to be playing Heresy"? Not Xenos, they weren't in it. It has to be something significant, if it's in any way true (which it may not be).
A hypothetical reboot in physical size / proportions of an entire line of armor marks? Again, never going to happen.
So what's the big thing that will mean "Everyone is going to be playing Heresy"? Not Xenos, they weren't in it. It has to be something significant, if it's in any way true (which it may not be).
Looking at my gaming group - more accessible rulebooks & army lists, and balancing the Legions would bring in more players.
Honestly, Xenos weren't in the main story, but part of the story of the Scouring was booting out Xenos and scum that took advantage of the Heresy, so I'm sure some fighting was going on.
Alternatively, when the new production comes online, a big shift to plastic could do it, too... but that would require people to either get marine armies (again), and I doubt people are going to drop their current armies and the current ruleset to play it.
Could just update the Legions for 8th. I would probably run a legion list in 8th if I could.
Carnikang wrote: Quick question, sort of regarding Primaris and HH.
Are there rules for the Raptor Marines that Corvus Corax was making? I know originally they were just bigger, tougher Marines without any extra organs and we're later corrupted/mutated monsters.
Maybe they could be represented with Primaris proportioned Marines in older marks of armor?
There are no bespoke rules for them, but you could easily run them as Blackshields with the Chymeriae rules for +1 S, +1 T to represent their mutated forms.
A hypothetical reboot in physical size / proportions of an entire line of armor marks? Again, never going to happen.
So what's the big thing that will mean "Everyone is going to be playing Heresy"? Not Xenos, they weren't in it. It has to be something significant, if it's in any way true (which it may not be).
A hypothetical reboot in physical size / proportions of an entire line of armor marks? Again, never going to happen.
So what's the big thing that will mean "Everyone is going to be playing Heresy"? Not Xenos, they weren't in it. It has to be something significant, if it's in any way true (which it may not be).
Marketing hype. That's the "big thing".
Yeah, trying to inject some excitement into a fanbase that's feeling a little downtrodden, methinks.
A hypothetical reboot in physical size / proportions of an entire line of armor marks? Again, never going to happen.
So what's the big thing that will mean "Everyone is going to be playing Heresy"? Not Xenos, they weren't in it. It has to be something significant, if it's in any way true (which it may not be).
Looking at my gaming group - more accessible rulebooks & army lists, and balancing the Legions would bring in more players.
Legions are somewhat balanced, but Primarchs make things uneven for sure. An AP system updated to be like the one we have for 40k would do a lot for useless units and upgrades too.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: In addition to plastic Mk2 I'd like to see a plastic Deimos Rhino and plastic Dreadclaw. The Dreadclaw would get 40k rules. For loyalists. Only.
Well the dreadclaw is about 90% plastic already so that wouldn't be too hard.
Reasonable expectations:
another mk of armour in plastic. Whether Breachers/Assault/Tactical this is likely to happen at some point.
Deimos rhino (and only the rhino itself): possible, more reasonable though since the plastic rhino is fully Heresy/30k usable not sure why
Unreasonable expectations:
Any Legion unique unit. Seriously that would be too small a potential sales list.
Most things bigger than a rhino.
Moving/converting to current 40k rules set. Heresy/30k is it's own thing, porting it at this point (when it could have been done already if it was that important) just isn't worth it
He's serious? Loyalist dreadclaws? What else? Loyalist daemon princes?
I am serious. Remember when they released 2 kinds of pre-Heresy terminators and then gave them rules for loyalists only?
A plastic Dreadclaw would need to be loyalist-only because it wouldn't have the baroque trim that signifies it's a Chaos model. Now presumably they could use the digital assets as a base to add some trim, spikes and screaming faces to make a Chaos Dreadclaw for 40k. But of course they would never actually get around to it because there's no room in the release schedule when you've got floating tanks and primaris lieutenant #37,746 to flog.
He's serious? Loyalist dreadclaws? What else? Loyalist daemon princes?
I am serious. Remember when they released 2 kinds of pre-Heresy terminators and then gave them rules for loyalists only?
A plastic Dreadclaw would need to be loyalist-only because it wouldn't have the baroque trim that signifies it's a Chaos model. Now presumably they could use the digital assets as a base to add some trim, spikes and screaming faces to make a Chaos Dreadclaw for 40k. But of course they would never actually get around to it because there's no room in the release schedule when you've got floating tanks and primaris lieutenant #37,746 to flog.
Ok I get the irony. But all dreadclaws are traitorous. They eat loyalists. That's why the loyalists shot all theirs into space.
He's serious? Loyalist dreadclaws? What else? Loyalist daemon princes?
I am serious. Remember when they released 2 kinds of pre-Heresy terminators and then gave them rules for loyalists only?
A plastic Dreadclaw would need to be loyalist-only because it wouldn't have the baroque trim that signifies it's a Chaos model. Now presumably they could use the digital assets as a base to add some trim, spikes and screaming faces to make a Chaos Dreadclaw for 40k. But of course they would never actually get around to it because there's no room in the release schedule when you've got floating tanks and primaris lieutenant #37,746 to flog.
Ok I get the irony. But all dreadclaws are traitorous. They eat loyalists. That's why the loyalists shot all theirs into space.
I'm sure Cawl could solve that problem.
Anyway, spend enough time as a Chaos player and you eventually realize wishing for stuff from GW is like the monkey's paw.
Me last edition: I wish Thousand Sons could be a standalone army!
GW: Your wish is granted! An army of Thousand Sons goat monsters!
Me: Wait GW! That's not what I wanted!
GW: *haunting monkey noises only I can hear*
So what I'd like to see: plastic mk2, Deimos Rhino, Dreadclaw. Rhino and Dreadclaw get used as a base for new Chaos Rhino and Dreadclaw in 40k. Chaos gets rules for the Dreadclaw in 40k.
What would actually happen: plastic mk2, Deimos Rhino, Dreadclaw. Loyalists get rules for the Dreadclaw in 40k and it can transport primaris marines. Chaos get rules for the Hellforged Dreadclaw which is 20 pts more than the regular Dreadclaw but that's because it regains lost wounds every phase equal to the wounds lost by the passengers it ate.
He's serious? Loyalist dreadclaws? What else? Loyalist daemon princes?
I am serious. Remember when they released 2 kinds of pre-Heresy terminators and then gave them rules for loyalists only?
A plastic Dreadclaw would need to be loyalist-only because it wouldn't have the baroque trim that signifies it's a Chaos model. Now presumably they could use the digital assets as a base to add some trim, spikes and screaming faces to make a Chaos Dreadclaw for 40k. But of course they would never actually get around to it because there's no room in the release schedule when you've got floating tanks and primaris lieutenant #37,746 to flog.
Ok I get the irony. But all dreadclaws are traitorous. They eat loyalists. That's why the loyalists shot all theirs into space.
I'm sure Cawl could solve that problem.
Anyway, spend enough time as a Chaos player and you eventually realize wishing for stuff from GW is like the monkey's paw.
Me last edition: I wish Thousand Sons could be a standalone army!
GW: Your wish is granted! An army of Thousand Sons goat monsters!
Me: Wait GW! That's not what I wanted!
GW: *haunting monkey noises only I can hear*
So what I'd like to see: plastic mk2, Deimos Rhino, Dreadclaw. Rhino and Dreadclaw get used as a base for new Chaos Rhino and Dreadclaw in 40k. Chaos gets rules for the Dreadclaw in 40k.
What would actually happen: plastic mk2, Deimos Rhino, Dreadclaw. Loyalists get rules for the Dreadclaw in 40k and it can transport primaris marines. Chaos get rules for the Hellforged Dreadclaw which is 20 pts more than the regular Dreadclaw but that's because it regains lost wounds every phase equal to the wounds lost by the passengers it ate.
Oh believe me I understand the csm salt.
Me: I wish my 40k night lords could have the 30k "a talent for murder rule ".
Gw: Here you go! Only it's split up between a warlord trait that only works for one character and a stratagem!
But personally I don't care if they make the dreadclaw 100% plastic. It's probably fw's easiest kit. It's literally a drop pod with conversion parts. And it doesn't eat its passengers. I love mine.
If only it could come down first turn like the loyalist's drop pods.
Me last edition: I wish Thousand Sons could be a standalone army!
GW: Your wish is granted! An army of Thousand Sons goat monsters!
I enjoyed this comment, and sympathise. It’s very common for GW to bring out stuff with rules entirely contrary to the fluff – especially when used to create anything resembling a competitive build. This has long been the case in 30k and 40k. The Tsons goats are perhaps an unusually extreme example of this.
The amazing thing is that there are still people who think GW brings stuff out with rules that are too good on purpose, to sell models. You only have to look at the amount of time they put into creating new chaos marines, terminators and so on – none of which are any real use – to see that this is not the case.
Sometimes there’s a new model that’s too good, like the Castellan. Even that came out alongside the Valiant, which is trash, and the pretty average Armigers. The recently released Eldar vs DE box contained a ton of very nice new (and old) models of which maybe one, Drazhar, is any good.
Haha that’s true about new models. The new CSM might be the most heavily skewed I’ve ever owned on good model/crap rules.
I’d be tempted to buy into HH if they upscaled the marines, however I’d feel so bad for everyone that owns thousands of pounds worth of FW resin mini marines if they did it. GW would have to think long and hard about the risk of their entire customer base seeing their arse and quitting if there’s any real scale change.
phillv85 wrote: Haha that’s true about new models. The new CSM might be the most heavily skewed I’ve ever owned on good model/crap rules.
I’d be tempted to buy into HH if they upscaled the marines, however I’d feel so bad for everyone that owns thousands of pounds worth of FW resin mini marines if they did it. GW would have to think long and hard about the risk of their entire customer base seeing their arse and quitting if there’s any real scale change.
You mean like how all those 7th edition Space Marine players upped and quit once the Primaris were revealed? They weren't just a real scale change, but a drastic change in lore and as someone else so astutely noted brought HH concepts into 40k.
phillv85 wrote: Haha that’s true about new models. The new CSM might be the most heavily skewed I’ve ever owned on good model/crap rules.
I’d be tempted to buy into HH if they upscaled the marines, however I’d feel so bad for everyone that owns thousands of pounds worth of FW resin mini marines if they did it. GW would have to think long and hard about the risk of their entire customer base seeing their arse and quitting if there’s any real scale change.
They already did it in 40K and there are way more 40K marine players than there are HH players.
phillv85 wrote: Haha that’s true about new models. The new CSM might be the most heavily skewed I’ve ever owned on good model/crap rules.
I’d be tempted to buy into HH if they upscaled the marines, however I’d feel so bad for everyone that owns thousands of pounds worth of FW resin mini marines if they did it. GW would have to think long and hard about the risk of their entire customer base seeing their arse and quitting if there’s any real scale change.
They already did it in 40K and there are way more 40K marine players than there are HH players.
Yea but this game is based on Space Marines and has a very passionate following from what I can see. I’m not saying all players would quit, just it’s a risk to potentially alienate your entire player base. 40k is different, most people have marines, but they’re not always their main army. (I know there’s more than just marines in HH of course, but I imagine most players play marines)
A hypothetical reboot in physical size / proportions of an entire line of armor marks? Again, never going to happen.
So what's the big thing that will mean "Everyone is going to be playing Heresy"? Not Xenos, they weren't in it. It has to be something significant, if it's in any way true (which it may not be).
Looking at my gaming group - more accessible rulebooks & army lists, and balancing the Legions would bring in more players.
The game was pretty good before the Ad Mech and Axu showed up. Once that happened, the spam problem really hit it hard, especially with Phosphex rounds. I played Ultramarines for about a year an a half, and in general, I enjoyed the games I got to play. I'd rather see it in 8th edition rules (AV/Weapon Facing is just dumb to me) but, I could tolerate it if they balanced out the other factions.
A hypothetical reboot in physical size / proportions of an entire line of armor marks? Again, never going to happen.
So what's the big thing that will mean "Everyone is going to be playing Heresy"? Not Xenos, they weren't in it. It has to be something significant, if it's in any way true (which it may not be).
Looking at my gaming group - more accessible rulebooks & army lists, and balancing the Legions would bring in more players.
The game was pretty good before the Ad Mech and Axu showed up. Once that happened, the spam problem really hit it hard, especially with Phosphex rounds. I played Ultramarines for about a year an a half, and in general, I enjoyed the games I got to play. I'd rather see it in 8th edition rules (AV/Weapon Facing is just dumb to me) but, I could tolerate it if they balanced out the other factions.
Not to mention when custodes hit, that 3++ rerolable captain with eternal warrior that could more or less tank about anything, beat primarch in cc for half his price...then that wound allocating senenigans on just about everything in their army. If custodes player made competent army(meaning, I just won't walk across the field with custodes) they could have had like 30% less points and still easily win that match vs marines.
They should really convert most of their resin kit to plastic and allow waylandgames to sell them with 20% discount. In my area there too many friends who are actually playing HOLUS HELESY.
Carlovonsexron wrote: I too though the tzanngors were amazing, and was hoping to see pestigors (which only.showed up.in.bloodbowl), and still hope for slaangors
I think Tzaangors are great, and like you I was really hoping GW would follow through with the other three types ( ), but I think the issue with 1KSons is that a lot of players were expecting that their 1KSons armies would be more about the Thousand Sons themselves, and not their mutant best friends.
Yup, we saw how the group who can't be bothered to learn new, much better system due to 'they changed it so it suxxx' syndrome can ""support"" 
