Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

I've heard they're weak, but don't actually have their dex.

2 things though: after November's WD, they can take an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor without messing them up- this may give a bit of a boost.

Also, I think they are one of January's PA factions, so we can hope for "the treatment" - ie. new doctrine equivalent, relics, strategems etc. Hard to say what they'll get though.

Where Do Grey Knights Stand?

In the blood of the Sisters of Battle

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Where Do Grey Knights Stand?

In the blood of the Sisters of Battle

I was gonna make a joke about GK not standing in the current meta at all, but lying in the ditch, but this reference is way better

-

 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

They are quite literally the worst codex army in the game right now.

What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

I'm sorry I'm laughing out loud in my office. If you haven't heard how bad GK are, well, take the stuffing out of your ears. They are widely believed to be the WORST codex bar none in the entire edition. They were released as one of the lauch codex's, which gave them a big problem when you factor in power creep. Also, their biggest strength, the ability to DS their entire army at any point during a match, was essentially nerfed into uselessness. Finally, their only counter (daemons) were given a stratagem at launch that effectively cut their balls off. They are an extremely overcosted, underperforming faction that relies heavily on luck or mistakes by opponent to get wins.

That and there are only several "good" units in the whole list, and most of them are characters.

Fun fact - they have a Superheavy flyer that is the highest cost unit in the game (Titans don't exist in 40k 8th)

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Fun fact - they have a Superheavy flyer that is the highest cost unit in the game (Titans don't exist in 40k 8th)

Literally nothing in this statement is correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

They need a redesign from the ground up. Their entire schtick is close assault, rapid deployment via deep strike and psyker powers. The structural rules of 8th edition preclude all three from happening.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

They need a redesign from the ground up. Their entire schtick is close assault, rapid deployment via deep strike and psyker powers. The structural rules of 8th edition preclude all three from happening.

Sadly agree, however with Marines going from solidly low-to-mid-tier to current Top-tier without a complete redesign, I feel there are some things that could be done to make GKs at LEAST mid-tier.
Personally, I'd start by giving them Psybolt ammo by default, rather than as a single unit Strat. Make it something similar to SIA in which each unit gets to choose either +1S or -1AP to their bolter shots. Maybe the Strat allows both for a unit?

Next, I'd give them some kind of deployment option similar to Scouts or Vanguard units. Maybe allow Strikes & Terminators to deploy anywhere outside 9" from enemy units/deployment zones instead of in Reserves. That would bypass the Matched play restriction and allow their Troops to rapidly get where they need to be

-

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

Basically with the points costs they got. If they get a sort of doctrines and new stratagems they could be pretty dang good. They should also get the thousand sons treatment with their mini smites.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

Basically with the points costs they got. If they get a sort of doctrines and new stratagems they could be pretty dang good. They should also get the thousand sons treatment with their mini smites.

You mean giving characters full smites and non-characters mini-smites?

They are hanging out at the bottom of Tournament performs with the other no-supplement Marine armies while eagerly awaiting Ritual Of The Damned.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

Basically with the points costs they got. If they get a sort of doctrines and new stratagems they could be pretty dang good. They should also get the thousand sons treatment with their mini smites.

You mean giving characters full smites and non-characters mini-smites?

Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

Well, the right pick up army for me atm.
As a pure army, hard to pull off especially when the enemy is shooty and this edition is a shooty one.
The advantage is that nobody can complain about my army
which is different when I play CW or Drukhari.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Fun fact - they have a Superheavy flyer that is the highest cost unit in the game (Titans don't exist in 40k 8th)

As it often does, reality disagrees with you.
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Imperial-Armour-Index-Collection-2017

They need more damage output, specifically against 2+/3+ saves in at range OR a much more reliable deepstrike/charge.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

My thoughts exactly. A second GK tree would also make a lot of sense. Or at the very least give Gk access to Librarius.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

I think 1ksons are at the very least competitive. Rubrics alone are better than Strikes, the Occult Terminators are better than paladins, and Arihman is a top tier Chaos HQ.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

I think 1ksons are at the very least competitive. Rubrics alone are better than Strikes, the Occult Terminators are better than paladins, and Arihman is a top tier Chaos HQ.

IDK about rubrics being better than strikes. Strikes DS for free and have huge melle by comparison they just have better prefered targets. Occults are certainly better than terms. Arhiman - though very good is only so good because he has access to better powers. Draigo on the other hand if he had access to actaully good spells would make ahriman look like a chump.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

I think 1ksons are at the very least competitive. Rubrics alone are better than Strikes, the Occult Terminators are better than paladins, and Arihman is a top tier Chaos HQ.

IDK about rubrics being better than strikes. Strikes DS for free and have huge melle by comparison they just have better prefered targets. Occults are certainly better than terms. Arhiman - though very good is only so good because he has access to better powers. Draigo on the other hand if he had access to actaully good spells would make ahriman look like a chump.

rubrics have a bit more resistance but the lack of options for them really hinders what roles they can fill. Sure , 1ksons at leasts has some competitive units, the problem is that pure 1ksons isnt really good outside of Ahriman + DPs + (a long time ago, tzaangors). I dont think Gks need much work to get to the current 1ksons level. Both armies have similar weaknesses (mainly heavy armor )

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

My thoughts exactly. A second GK tree would also make a lot of sense. Or at the very least give Gk access to Librarius.

Not even close.

What GKs need are bespoke powers they're all allowed to cast based on the unit, and we completely rework the Sanctic.

GK have a significant number of major problems:
A tiny number of psychic powers in a psychic-dependant army. Unlike Tzeentch, or even Space Marines, who get access to several psychic charts, Grey Knights get a mere six powers.

A huge reliance on stratagems to deal damage, but a huge deficit of Command Points. You need Psybolt Ammo/Psychic Onslaught to do real damage with their guns, but those are 2cp apiece. If you want durable characters for a turn, (by boosting invulns by 1,) that's also 2cp.

There's also a huge defecit of unit flexibility. Most of the army fills the same role - Heavy infantry with varying degrees of durability and damage. There's no chaff units to fill slots or screen, and even our strongest units aren't exactly swinging for the fences. Plus, because there's so much redundancy, a lot of units feel like worse copies of other stuff - For example, there's almost no point to taking a Dreadknight over a Grandmaster Dreadknight when the latter is just flatly better for a really minor cost difference.

On top of of this all, the army has a ton of weaknesses and hard counters. If you face an army with lots of mid-AP weapons, you might as well pack up and go home. Because of this, Space Marines - the most commonly played army in the game - are a hard counter, as well as a bunch of other armies.

Some of their tools are REALLY good: Sanctuary. Heed the Prognosticars. Astral Aim. Gate of Infinity.

They seem to lack cost effective staying power and cost effective ranged anti-tank/anti-elite (although ven dreads are decent).

Personally I wouldn't have decreased their basic infantry cost at all (or maybe just decrease it less than they did?), but gave them something like a 5++ vs ranged weapons for everything in basic power armor. Call the rule "kine shield" or something.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

My thoughts exactly. A second GK tree would also make a lot of sense. Or at the very least give Gk access to Librarius.

Not even close.

What GKs need are bespoke powers they're all allowed to cast based on the unit, and we completely rework the Sanctic.

That is how it used to be and it would be pretty cool if we got that back. I'd be happy with ether. Sanctic being weak is a huge problem for the GK. Though it wouldn't be such a huge deal with buffed smite. The thing is with only 6 powers and every unit being able to cast and you run out of everything but smite.

 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

In the trash bin

Waaaghpower wrote:
GK have a significant number of major problems:
A tiny number of psychic powers in a psychic-dependant army. Unlike Tzeentch, or even Space Marines, who get access to several psychic charts, Grey Knights get a mere six powers.

A huge reliance on stratagems to deal damage, but a huge deficit of Command Points. You need Psybolt Ammo/Psychic Onslaught to do real damage with their guns, but those are 2cp apiece. If you want durable characters for a turn, (by boosting invulns by 1,) that's also 2cp.

There's also a huge defecit of unit flexibility. Most of the army fills the same role - Heavy infantry with varying degrees of durability and damage. There's no chaff units to fill slots or screen, and even our strongest units aren't exactly swinging for the fences. Plus, because there's so much redundancy, a lot of units feel like worse copies of other stuff - For example, there's almost no point to taking a Dreadknight over a Grandmaster Dreadknight when the latter is just flatly better for a really minor cost difference.

On top of of this all, the army has a ton of weaknesses and hard counters. If you face an army with lots of mid-AP weapons, you might as well pack up and go home. Because of this, Space Marines - the most commonly played army in the game - are a hard counter, as well as a bunch of other armies.

Specifically about your GMDK vs NDK. The NDK with it's roughly 50 point drop is actually at pretty reasonable standing with the grand master. Personally I like the idea of 3 GMDK and 3 NDK and max strikes or strikes + Interceptors.

Slightly awkwardly, while holding their ankles?

I don’t have modern experience, but they’ve suffered from being Melee marines with shooty guns... that also have Psychic powers but no particular defensive bonus that keeps them from consistently losing in battles of attrition.

If I recall, they also suffer from slow, relatively expensive anti-tank platforms, which again creates poor attrition qualities compared to other MEQ.

If they had +6” movement on all units, ridiculous as that might seem, it would solve many of their otherwise inefficient trades... by virtue of being more selective with their targeting and ability to avoid opponent’s retaliation.

Being able to shunt / teleport through the warp as their chapter trait could reflect their mastery of warp travel, and give them a unique spot in the crowded MEQ market.

GK's did okay with the latest points drop, but still stink. I say this as I play them.

For a psychic army they suck at psychic powers. They need more powers, better powers, and abilities to either cast powers more reliably or cast the same power multiple times. Smite should be regular smite for characters.

Their special weapons need either a boost, or another points drop, perhaps both.

GK are still being punished for some bad decisions that were made back in the 5e book (dropping everyone to the standard Space Marine statlines from their WS5/2A in the 3e book, "all models are armed with and must pay for literal force weapons", and the attempt to make an entire army out of slight variations on one elite melee unit with a total of four possible ranged weapons on any version of them).

The reasons they don't work are tied up in the one-dimensional model range and the 8e psychic phase. If you fiddle around with the points you might produce a situation where they're accidentally strong because one of the units is underpriced (Purifiers in 5e), but they're so narrowly-written and badly-designed that that's never going to be more than a casual fluke that doesn't get repeated.

Waaaghpower wrote:
GK have a significant number of major problems:
A tiny number of psychic powers in a psychic-dependant army. Unlike Tzeentch, or even Space Marines, who get access to several psychic charts, Grey Knights get a mere six powers.

A huge reliance on stratagems to deal damage, but a huge deficit of Command Points. You need Psybolt Ammo/Psychic Onslaught to do real damage with their guns, but those are 2cp apiece. If you want durable characters for a turn, (by boosting invulns by 1,) that's also 2cp.

There's also a huge defecit of unit flexibility. Most of the army fills the same role - Heavy infantry with varying degrees of durability and damage. There's no chaff units to fill slots or screen, and even our strongest units aren't exactly swinging for the fences. Plus, because there's so much redundancy, a lot of units feel like worse copies of other stuff - For example, there's almost no point to taking a Dreadknight over a Grandmaster Dreadknight when the latter is just flatly better for a really minor cost difference.

On top of of this all, the army has a ton of weaknesses and hard counters. If you face an army with lots of mid-AP weapons, you might as well pack up and go home. Because of this, Space Marines - the most commonly played army in the game - are a hard counter, as well as a bunch of other armies.

Pretty much this.

Very CP hungry. Strats too expensive and too necessary in order to compete. Psybolt ammunition needs to be cheaper or a pointed upgrade. Also should have access to SM psychic powers / new powers & more normal smites.

Terminators in general are not in a good place as they are too slow and not enough dakka.

I was thinking of them having access to pretty much all types of psychic disciplines. Not every psyker is going to have the same powers, so they should be able to draw from various disciplines. They could use the 'Malefic' powers, but obviously do not wish to practice such a dark path, which would bar them from using it in-game to represent the lore/fluff/history/etc. I don't know how the in-game mechanics work though (i.e. picking a psychic discipline on a squad by squad basis or the whole army/faction would have to take the same psychic talent tree.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

My thoughts exactly. A second GK tree would also make a lot of sense. Or at the very least give Gk access to Librarius.

Not even close.

What GKs need are bespoke powers they're all allowed to cast based on the unit, and we completely rework the Sanctic.

That is how it used to be and it would be pretty cool if we got that back. I'd be happy with ether. Sanctic being weak is a huge problem for the GK. Though it wouldn't be such a huge deal with buffed smite. The thing is with only 6 powers and every unit being able to cast and you run out of everything but smite.

Something along the lines of Purgators keeping Astral Aim, Terminators and Paladins get some sorta bonus to their attacks exploding, Interceptors and Strikes getting Warp Quake which would work to give that area denial Infiltrators have, and Purifiers get a rework on their current Smite.

I never finalized everything in the homebrew rules I was working on, but it was along those lines.

They stand in the corner, ironically next to pure daemons, as possibly the worst two codexes in 8th.

 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

Eh, I won the last game I played with them [vs. Custodes].

They're conventionally held to be the worst faction in the game, and that's probably true. That said, it's not so bad you can't find success. Space Marines might be a real tough ask though, because with 12" DS denial, Ap-2 across the board, etc. there's a lot in there that hard counters us [you]. Of course, to salt the wound, any given space marine list has 2 psychic disciplines, 12 total powers to pick from cast per turn and many to never pick because they don't have 12 casts per turn in a list, but we get 6 when every singe unit is a psyker and our smites are de-tuned into uselessness.

Were I a Grey Knight's player, I'd personally be hoping for very little out of the next Psychic Awakening book. Might seem counter-intuitive, but the thing is, Grey Knights need nothing less than an entirely new codex, and if the next Psychic Awakening solves half their problems, I'd be worried that the other half would get put on the long finger again.

From PA they need

Better smite on characters
1-2 more psychic tables
Access to a grey Knight/psychic doctrines
A way to circumvent the rule of one in psychic
Chaplin gets litany of hate
A way to increase their durability
Better heavy weapons
Dreadknights get shunt back (with teleporter)
Reasons to take Libby, brother champ, tech matinee, etc.
Fix the incinerator
Fix the psycannons
And more...

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Were I a Grey Knight's player, I'd personally be hoping for very little out of the next Psychic Awakening book. Might seem counter-intuitive, but the thing is, Grey Knights need nothing less than an entirely new codex, and if the next Psychic Awakening solves half their problems, I'd be worried that the other half would get put on the long finger again.

Well, I also don't expect something from the PA book.
Similar to the Aeldari in the first PA book.
Almost nothing that should be a must have.

My expectations that GW manages to release a better GK codex in the near future or at all are zero.
For this, playtesting would be necessary to bring the army up-to-date.
But playtesting is not what GW is really caring for.

Have a look at the monthly WD. A quite good magazine when it comes to short stories and painting tips.
But the guys and girls playing there are just GW employees, no 40k addicts and professionals.

 Smotejob wrote:
From PA they need

Better smite on characters
1-2 more psychic tables
Access to a grey Knight/psychic doctrines
A way to circumvent the rule of one in psychic
Chaplin gets litany of hate
A way to increase their durability
Better heavy weapons
Dreadknights get shunt back (with teleporter)
Reasons to take Libby, brother champ, tech matinee, etc.
Fix the incinerator
Fix the psycannons
And more...

Every single one of these + Psybolt "Special Issue" Ammo would be my hope.
I unfortunately have serious misgivings that PA will do half of, if any at all, of what you listed. =(

GK's have a singular problem that trickles down to affect all things GK's. That problem is... GW wrote themselves into a narrative corner with Primaris Marines and GK's will either become collateral damage from this epic short sighted failure or GW will have to retcon most of the GK's narrative to keep them relevant in the current setting..

Only time will tell if we'll see them fade into obscurity or if we'll see the model line, the narrative behind them and subsequently their rules completely reinvented.

 oni wrote:
GK's have a singular problem that trickles down to affect all things GK's. That problem is... GW wrote themselves into a narrative corner with Primaris Marines and GK's will either become collateral damage from this epic short sighted failure or GW will have to retcon most of the GK's narrative to keep them relevant in the current setting..

Only time will tell if we'll see them fade into obscurity or if we'll see the model line, the narrative behind them and subsequently their rules completely reinvented.

The will get the primaris treatment for sure.

I can see it now .....

Warpstigators

Psygressors

Psypulser Psycutioner

It’s going to be grand!

Pancakey wrote:

 oni wrote:
GK's have a singular problem that trickles down to affect all things GK's. That problem is... GW wrote themselves into a narrative corner with Primaris Marines and GK's will either become collateral damage from this epic short sighted failure or GW will have to retcon most of the GK's narrative to keep them relevant in the current setting..

Only time will tell if we'll see them fade into obscurity or if we'll see the model line, the narrative behind them and subsequently their rules completely reinvented.

The will get the primaris treatment for sure.

I can see it now .....

Warpstigators

Psygressors

Psypulser Psycutioner

It’s going to be grand!

Lets all sacrifice a small goat to the dark gods and pray this does not come to pass...

 Argive wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 oni wrote:
GK's have a singular problem that trickles down to affect all things GK's. That problem is... GW wrote themselves into a narrative corner with Primaris Marines and GK's will either become collateral damage from this epic short sighted failure or GW will have to retcon most of the GK's narrative to keep them relevant in the current setting..

Only time will tell if we'll see them fade into obscurity or if we'll see the model line, the narrative behind them and subsequently their rules completely reinvented.

The will get the primaris treatment for sure.

I can see it now .....

Warpstigators

Psygressors

Psypulser Psycutioner

It’s going to be grand!

Lets all sacrifice a small goat to the dark gods and pray this does not come to pass...

If only it were that easy!

I will let you know when i get my C&D from GW legal.

They are pretty bad. How can such a cool army be so gak?

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

These new rules have been doing pretty well in play-testing:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779625.page

^They should make Grey Knights a mid-tier meta army at least.

They stand in the corner with a funny little pointy hat on still paying for the sins of The Ward.

There was the demon world ** CLASSIFIED ** inside the eye of terror. It was formally a Necron tomb world that was heavily infested by Orks before to get swallowed inside the thickest warp storms that have ever existed. It was that impenetrable that nobody can get in without the help of the chaos gods. It is because of that that the Chaos Space Marines thought that there were the safer place to store all the salt that they plunder across the galaxy for millennials from the Horus heresy. They underestimate the power of the progonosticars.

Brother ** CLASSIFIED ** , probably the most powerful prognosticar in the last 3000 years, gave his life to predict an opening in the warp storms of a couple of few days. This is when Grand Master Lord Saltimor Karhn of the second brotherhood assembled a strike force to retrieve all the salt from the demon world ** CLASSIFIED **.

The hammers of titans fall upon the chaos forces who didn't expect it as they believed to be safe in ** CLASSIFIED **. It was a glorious day for the emperor and the silver marines retrieved all the salt from the demon world ** CLASSIFIED ** and bring it to the fortress world of ** CLASSIFIED **.

Meanwhile, in an important craftworld some farseer sees it. He was wondering what is this salt and why everybody seems interested in it. He asked to his warlocks, nobody knew it. He sent some communications to some contacts in Commorragh and in the Ynaries. Nobody seems to know anything about. Puzzled he decided to contact the ultramarines as Guillaman somehow, own one favour to the fellows Ynaries. However, they also didn't know what is this salt thing. Such a mystery, So they decide that it was just some monkeigh or another low civilised species non-sense so they decide to ignore it and keep with his project to increase his fleet of crimson hunters. ....to fail to understand the importance of the salt... no wonder why the Aeldari civilisation fell to chaos.

The fact is that now almost all the salt of the galaxy is under the custody of the Grey Knights. Abadon have tried to recover it and so he has sent several black crusades till then to recover the stolen salt. Do not believe the official version, he didn't go to vigilus to chop down the segmentus obscurus from the light of the emperor. He just wrongly believe that the salt was sored in vigiuls. He haven't succeed yet.

The salt is firmly kept by the grey knights. Here is where the Grey Knights stand. As the unbreakable shield that is holding the salt to spread across the galaxy. As the last hope of the mankind, no, of the whole universe, against the salty menace of the salty salt.

Well, GK as a stand-alone army is maybe the wrong approach.
Fluff-wise, one will just see a detachment of GK on the battle field combating chaos whenever possible.
Such a GK force is usually embedded in a larger army of AM or SM battling the evil.

Well wait for ritual of the damned. Mayb they get something nice

They are grey, they stand between the candle and the star

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

These new rules have been doing pretty well in play-testing:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779625.page

^They should make Grey Knights a mid-tier meta army at least.

Before NuMarines came out, I was still playing GK at least once a month. Tried these house rules, tried a few other popular ones - multicast, improved heavy weapons, reroll charges, parry, full army deep strike, deep strike on turn 1, double dice on invuls, etc. This amendment seems to combine the best of those into a single document.

Honestly, Grey Knights have little synergy with the 8th edition ruleset and house rules only go so far in correcting the problems. Fundamentally, if you are going to spend points on a unit, it has to perform on the tabletop. There are still too many units that just don't really work with the way 8th is written.

They have lots of great melee weapons, but all the ways to deliver a unit into combat are mediocre.

They have lots of decent Stratagems, but each costs a lot of command points.

They have lots of access to heavy weapons, but the ones they can take don't do much damage.

It's nice that every unit can smite, but always doing a single mortal wound to the closest unit doesn't really mean much.

The improvements I have seen that actually affect games are in points cost, CA and various FAQs have made them a little more playable. The army I played in 2018 used to cost 2,000 points, now it costs 1432. Strikes are a lot cheaper, I can load up on them and a Brother Captain to create a small detachment to soup with IG. A LRC with Astral Aim and Psychic Onslaught is one of the better options for clearing chaff with Indirect Fire. And a 10-man Paladin unit with an Apothecary, Draigo, and a Brotherhood Ancient is something akin to a death star, even if you take wounds, you have plenty of ways to get them back.

So I guess I'd say Grey Knights are great for soup, great for narrative, and still really challenging to play on their own. Now that NuMarines are here, I'm skeptical the army can be fixed even with a new Codex. I think GW would need to Primarize GKs for them to compete and they'd end up something like Deathwatch with some great gimmick that doesn't really make up for the lack of Doctrines.

Let's see:
-Terminators are key to the GK codex and they are overcosted with limited wargear options.
-All their options are *low AP* Heavy weapons, so they are shooting at a BS of 4+ even though Terminators should have Relentless.
-They can't cast the same spell twice from a 6 spell book in an all psychic army AND they have a nerfed smite. I'm not sure why their troops cost much, maybe it's the ONE psychic spell they can cast.
-Their primary transport is deepstriking, which got nerfed shortly after the codex came out.
-Their buff stratagems cost TWO CP in an army that is starved for cp due to their low model count.
-GK got a series of nerfs after the codex came out. I mentioned the DS nerf, but they also received a nerf to their Sanctuary spell, and a nerf to the way interceptors could move around in the charge phase.
-They absolutely need access to doctrines, litanies, more psychic powers (or an adjustment to the rule of 1), and lower cp costs, together, to make them a competitive army, which is an awfully long wishlist. I'm not sure what that board meeting would look like, but I can see some jack off saying, "If we do that for Grey Knights, we'd have to do that for everyone!". It remains a wishlist that probably won't be fulfilled.

Thus is the life of a GK player. How can such a cool army be and remain so crap? GW PLEASE.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, GK as a stand-alone army is maybe the wrong approach.
Fluff-wise, one will just see a detachment of GK on the battle field combating chaos whenever possible.
Such a GK force is usually embedded in a larger army of AM or SM battling the evil.

Not long now till we will see the full the PA4 rules for GK. By the looks of things Masters of The Warp Tide bonuses is good enough to keep the army mono-GK. +1 Cover save / enemy -1 to hit army wide (or GK psyker units at least), or 2MW Smite spam are enticing buffs imo.

 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

Well, despite the gimmicks they will get they are still bottom tier.
Its a glass cannon that easily folds.

Army-wide cover or -1 to hit if in cover for free is glass cannon? OK then.

They look much stronger than before. Likely not IH strong but middling in the codex Astartes power level - RG/WS level perhaps.

2 MW spam is going to be a problem for so many armies/builds it's going to really change things I think, not to mention what they do to Daemons, that are so key to competitive Chaos builds.

It's likely they increase the strength of vanilla marines in the meta while killing a few Chaos builds, possibly reducing their overall strength. Its another nail in the Custodes and Knight coffin too, I think.

people talk about GKs being a bit of a glass canon because their basic troops are still 17 PPM. at that kinda price even a -1 to hit seems pretty fragile. I agree though that some people might be short selling them. I mean, even if strike squads are still "meh" GKTs are going to be pretty tough. problem is people judge by "can it point and click beat the latest OP netlist with ease" even if GKs move up to middle tier that'll be pretty good. I mean... they'll be playable at least. I've got a small GK army, it'd be nice to dust it off, even just for casual games.

Played a game Yesterday, 2k vs Shooty Tyranids. Used just the Tide of Shadows and nothing else new.

Its a serious serious buff. Paladins/GMNDKs with -1 to Hit are really tough, and even plain Strikes and Interceptors gaining cover after you dropped them close for your turn 2 Beta strike saved a lot of them in the following round.

Psi Weapons that only hit on 5+ /4+ (-1 to hit from malanthorphe) still suck, didnt had the feeling it would be worth it to use the Psi Weapon buff tide in that situation.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Army-wide cover or -1 to hit if in cover for free is glass cannon? OK then.

They look much stronger than before. Likely not IH strong but middling in the codex Astartes power level - RG/WS level perhaps.

2 MW spam is going to be a problem for so many armies/builds it's going to really change things I think, not to mention what they do to Daemons, that are so key to competitive Chaos builds.

It's likely they increase the strength of vanilla marines in the meta while killing a few Chaos builds, possibly reducing their overall strength. Its another nail in the Custodes and Knight coffin too, I think.

You are correct it is going annihilate the disco lord build. Disco lord is killed by 3 GK smites doing flat 4 damage in the mind bullet tide (assuming they still get flat 3 for smites vs daemons) It's going to murder TS too With Psycannons getting the buff to str 8 and flat 2 damage completely ignoing all is dust and who love daemon princes. It will murder my black legion list to which has no less than 5 daemons in my standard list. It's going to murder any army without significant chaff (no army can withstand 30+ mortal alpha to their best units). Not even Ironhands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

Well, despite the gimmicks they will get they are still bottom tier.
Its a glass cannon that easily folds.

It's a glass cannon with built in mechanisms to always strike first. That is a formula for victory IMO. It will be heavily matchup dependent though. Imperial gaurd will do really well against GK. As they can absorb the alpha strike and then kill 40 meq in a turn like nobodies business. Though...the RG army trait will probably help out a lot more than you think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
people talk about GKs being a bit of a glass canon because their basic troops are still 17 PPM. at that kinda price even a -1 to hit seems pretty fragile. I agree though that some people might be short selling them. I mean, even if strike squads are still "meh" GKTs are going to be pretty tough. problem is people judge by "can it point and click beat the latest OP netlist with ease" even if GKs move up to middle tier that'll be pretty good. I mean... they'll be playable at least. I've got a small GK army, it'd be nice to dust it off, even just for casual games.

It can. Assault cents 24 wound Goliath murdered in a psychic phase NP before you even shoot.

I'm curious in regards to the other SM Chapters with Supplements / PA rules where does current Grey Knights stand?

Compared to the following, where would you slot GKs after you've arranged the list from strongest to least:
- Ultramarines
- White Scars
- Raven Guard
- Iron Hands
- Imperial Fists
- Salamanders
- Blood Angels
- Dark Angels
- Black Templar

Because how little space for errors and how complicated the game play is, comparing to a solid and easy to play lists, GK are somewhere at the bottom of the list. the main difference between pre and post PA4 GKs is that playing post PA4 GK you do not feel like your whiping yourself, and in a more casual setting they can even be a bit of fun.

Very unforgiving to play though,

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
I'm curious in regards to the other SM Chapters with Supplements / PA rules where does current Grey Knights stand?

Compared to the following, where would you slot GKs after you've arranged the list from strongest to least:
- Ultramarines
- White Scars
- Raven Guard
- Iron Hands
- Imperial Fists
- Salamanders
- Blood Angels
- Dark Angels
- Black Templar

- Iron Hands
- Raven Guard
- White Scars
- Imperial Fists
- Dark Angels
- Blood Angels
- Ultramarines
- Grey Knights
- Black Templars
- Salamanders

^ I was thinking they were around Black Templar level...maybe a bit higher.

Maybe a pro GK player will work out a build or playstyle pushing them to around BA/DA level in the future.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
I'm curious in regards to the other SM Chapters with Supplements / PA rules where does current Grey Knights stand?

Compared to the following, where would you slot GKs after you've arranged the list from strongest to least:
- Ultramarines
- White Scars
- Raven Guard
- Iron Hands
- Imperial Fists
- Salamanders
- Blood Angels
- Dark Angels
- Black Templar

- Iron Hands
- Raven Guard
- White Scars
- Imperial Fists
- Dark Angels
- Blood Angels
- Ultramarines
- Grey Knights
- Black Templars
- Salamanders

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
I'm curious in regards to the other SM Chapters with Supplements / PA rules where does current Grey Knights stand?

Compared to the following, where would you slot GKs after you've arranged the list from strongest to least:
- Ultramarines
- White Scars
- Raven Guard
- Iron Hands
- Imperial Fists
- Salamanders
- Blood Angels
- Dark Angels
- Black Templar

- Iron Hands
- Raven Guard
- White Scars
- Imperial Fists
- Dark Angels
- Blood Angels
- Ultramarines
- Grey Knights
- Black Templars
- Salamanders

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

I tend to rate GK lower then vanilla Marines of all stripes. this isn't because GK aren't good (the rules changes I think made em solid) but rather because Marines have such a deep toolbox they can be a lot more unpredictable. tell me you're playing grey Knights and I have an idea as to what I'm likely facing, tell me you're taking space marines and it doesn't matter what chapter I honestly won't be able to predict your list beyond a vague "... well he's sallies so will proably have flamers"

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
I'm curious in regards to the other SM Chapters with Supplements / PA rules where does current Grey Knights stand?

Compared to the following, where would you slot GKs after you've arranged the list from strongest to least:
- Ultramarines
- White Scars
- Raven Guard
- Iron Hands
- Imperial Fists
- Salamanders
- Blood Angels
- Dark Angels
- Black Templar

- Iron Hands
- Raven Guard
- White Scars
- Imperial Fists
- Dark Angels
- Blood Angels
- Ultramarines
- Grey Knights
- Black Templars
- Salamanders

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

I tend to rate GK lower then vanilla Marines of all stripes. this isn't because GK aren't good (the rules changes I think made em solid) but rather because Marines have such a deep toolbox they can be a lot more unpredictable. tell me you're playing grey Knights and I have an idea as to what I'm likely facing, tell me you're taking space marines and it doesn't matter what chapter I honestly won't be able to predict your list beyond a vague "... well he's sallies so will proably have flamers"

Indeed, would-be competitive GK lists are rather predictable. The enemy knows what he/she can expect.
The toolbox of vanilla Marines are rather large these days. Although our Salamanders player usually brings three Invictors to the board.

What process do GW go through that makes some armies so uncompetitive compare to others.

To be honest it may be fatigue, there are arguably too many imperial armies and I’d rather see GK and inquisition, for example, to be available supplements to an IG or SM army.

I’d rather the effort went into creating original Xenos or chaos armies

 wuestenfux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
I'm curious in regards to the other SM Chapters with Supplements / PA rules where does current Grey Knights stand?

Compared to the following, where would you slot GKs after you've arranged the list from strongest to least:
- Ultramarines
- White Scars
- Raven Guard
- Iron Hands
- Imperial Fists
- Salamanders
- Blood Angels
- Dark Angels
- Black Templar

- Iron Hands
- Raven Guard
- White Scars
- Imperial Fists
- Dark Angels
- Blood Angels
- Ultramarines
- Grey Knights
- Black Templars
- Salamanders

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

I tend to rate GK lower then vanilla Marines of all stripes. this isn't because GK aren't good (the rules changes I think made em solid) but rather because Marines have such a deep toolbox they can be a lot more unpredictable. tell me you're playing grey Knights and I have an idea as to what I'm likely facing, tell me you're taking space marines and it doesn't matter what chapter I honestly won't be able to predict your list beyond a vague "... well he's sallies so will proably have flamers"

Indeed, would-be competitive GK lists are rather predictable. The enemy knows what he/she can expect.
The toolbox of vanilla Marines are rather large these days. Although our Salamanders player usually brings three Invictors to the board.

true I mean codex power rankings are pretty generalist, I mean.. I'm sure somewhere out there is a group who reads the hysterics about Iron Hands and goes "... what are they talking about Tim hasn't won a game with them since their supplement game out, I thought Iron Hands sucked"

but I tend to rank a codex that can run several good viable lists fairly highly to the point where they edge out a list that has a monobuild list even if it's potentially SLIGHTLY more powerful.

BrianDavion wrote:


I tend to rate GK lower then vanilla Marines of all stripes. this isn't because GK aren't good (the rules changes I think made em solid) but rather because Marines have such a deep toolbox they can be a lot more unpredictable. tell me you're playing grey Knights and I have an idea as to what I'm likely facing, tell me you're taking space marines and it doesn't matter what chapter I honestly won't be able to predict your list beyond a vague "... well he's sallies so will proably have flamers"

Honest question - how does that convey any real advantage?

As soon as i read through a marine list I have a very good idea how it is designed to play. The fact that other marine lists are different does not matter at all.

Maybe it matters in casual gaming if your opponent tries to catch you out but in competitive gaming the first time I know what faction my opponent is running is when I have their list in my hands.

GK look very good. I have a tournament tomorrow and I fully expect one of the better players there to be running pure GK - because they are really powerful and have a good path to winning the tournament. I honestly do not know quite what my Crimson Fists can do about GK - I think if he plays his best game I just lose. That is just theory, we will see what happens when we put models on the table and play the game.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


I tend to rate GK lower then vanilla Marines of all stripes. this isn't because GK aren't good (the rules changes I think made em solid) but rather because Marines have such a deep toolbox they can be a lot more unpredictable. tell me you're playing grey Knights and I have an idea as to what I'm likely facing, tell me you're taking space marines and it doesn't matter what chapter I honestly won't be able to predict your list beyond a vague "... well he's sallies so will proably have flamers"

Honest question - how does that convey any real advantage?

As soon as i read through a marine list I have a very good idea how it is designed to play. The fact that other marine lists are different does not matter at all.

Maybe it matters in casual gaming if your opponent tries to catch you out but in competitive gaming the first time I know what faction my opponent is running is when I have their list in my hands.

GK look very good. I have a tournament tomorrow and I fully expect one of the better players there to be running pure GK - because they are really powerful and have a good path to winning the tournament. I honestly do not know quite what my Crimson Fists can do about GK - I think if he plays his best game I just lose. That is just theory, we will see what happens when we put models on the table and play the game.

well crimson fists have bonuses vs hoards and tanks so GKs are kind of your kryptonite but the advantage is that a richer more flexable codex makes putting together a workable army easier. thus it's easier to do your own thing and do reasonably well with it, which is something I value. not everyone is going to run the perfectly optimzied list so a codex where you can literally grab an army whose models you like and do well with it is, a bit of a..... logistical advantage, and is simply more FUN. thus all things being equal.. I'll rank the army that has that feature above the one that really only has one way to play if you wanna be reasonably good.

Well, SM armies like HI or Crimson/Imperial Fists castle up in the first rounds trying to thin out the enemy army.
Then in the mid/end game they spread out to occupy/fulfill mission objectives.
If you play their game, you will be at the losing end.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
I'm curious in regards to the other SM Chapters with Supplements / PA rules where does current Grey Knights stand?

Compared to the following, where would you slot GKs after you've arranged the list from strongest to least:
- Ultramarines
- White Scars
- Raven Guard
- Iron Hands
- Imperial Fists
- Salamanders
- Blood Angels
- Dark Angels
- Black Templar

- Iron Hands
- Raven Guard
- White Scars
- Imperial Fists
- Dark Angels
- Blood Angels
- Ultramarines
- Grey Knights
- Black Templars
- Salamanders

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

As one of the aforementioned Black Templates players, but also a Grey Knights player, I'd argue the three bottom ones (BT/Sala/GK) are roughly interchangeable in power. That level of power is just markedly behind the rest.

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

Based on my games you guys are hilariously wrong, but I don't play IH, so...YMMV

 vict0988 wrote:

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
I'm curious in regards to the other SM Chapters with Supplements / PA rules where does current Grey Knights stand?

Compared to the following, where would you slot GKs after you've arranged the list from strongest to least:
- Ultramarines
- White Scars
- Raven Guard
- Iron Hands
- Imperial Fists
- Salamanders
- Blood Angels
- Dark Angels
- Black Templar

- Iron Hands
- Raven Guard
- White Scars
- Imperial Fists
- Dark Angels
- Blood Angels
- Ultramarines
- Grey Knights
- Black Templars
- Salamanders

I'd move a couple of these.

I'd say
Ironhands
Ravengaurd
Darkangels
IF
Whitescars
(Blood Angels
Greyknights
Ultramarines
Saladmanders
Black Templars) the difference in power between these in parenthesis are not that large of a difference.

Well, I doubt that UM are in the lower bracket.
My ranking would start with IH, IF, UM, Ravenguard, White Scars and GK would be the lowest ranked.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I doubt that UM are in the lower bracket.
My ranking would start with IH, IF, UM, Ravenguard, White Scars and GK would be the lowest ranked.

I do too, but according to Xeno, Ultras might as well not have a chapter tactic it's so bad.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I doubt that UM are in the lower bracket.
My ranking would start with IH, IF, UM, Ravenguard, White Scars and GK would be the lowest ranked.

I do too, but according to Xeno, Ultras might as well not have a chapter tactic it's so bad.

Yet if you go by the LVO results the list is as such:

IH Successor (4.5 avg wins)
RG Successor
IH
RG
AA
IF (3.33 avg wins)
Sallie
WS
UM (2.4 avg wins)
DA

Now there may be other reasons why it is as such an Xeno may not be considering those, but we don't have the info to draw those conclusions. While UM may not be bad they're certainly no IH.

Oh, definitely. IH is broken broken-UM is just too good.

well if someone doesn't go hog with the specials hqs, they are worse IH. The really bad stuff seems to be melee centric stuff SW or BT, although bad doesn't have to be horrible to play with. GK aren't good, the way IH or RG are, but they are a lot more fun then they were. The game play, at higher level, requires genius levels of skill and concentration. So not an army for someone who wants solid and simple.

we don;t have any SW or BT players here, and we lost our last BA player. So am not sure if other melee armies are fun to play right now. I have a feeling that maybe not, but I may as well be 100% wrong.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, definitely. IH is broken broken-UM is just too good.

Winning 2.4 out of 5 games is...the same level of win rate as Necrons, Tyrnaids, CSM, and Sisters. That is what we consider "too good"?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, definitely. IH is broken broken-UM is just too good.

Winning 2.4 out of 5 games is...the same level of win rate as Necrons, Tyrnaids, CSM, and Sisters. That is what we consider "too good"?

*Shrug*

Honestly, all I've got with that is anecdotes. I can contend that, as Ultras are kinda the "suggested" subfaction of Marines, you could have a lot of people who are going to their first tournament or just kinda happened into Ultras without really picking, diluting the pool of good players more than other factions, but that's just conjecture.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, definitely. IH is broken broken-UM is just too good.

Winning 2.4 out of 5 games is...the same level of win rate as Necrons, Tyrnaids, CSM, and Sisters. That is what we consider "too good"?

*Shrug*

Honestly, all I've got with that is anecdotes. I can contend that, as Ultras are kinda the "suggested" subfaction of Marines, you could have a lot of people who are going to their first tournament or just kinda happened into Ultras without really picking, diluting the pool of good players more than other factions, but that's just conjecture.

Right I don't dispute the possibility that better player gravitate to IH or w/e (but then you have to evenly apply that to other factions). There's a lot we don't know.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, definitely. IH is broken broken-UM is just too good.

Winning 2.4 out of 5 games is...the same level of win rate as Necrons, Tyrnaids, CSM, and Sisters. That is what we consider "too good"?

*Shrug*

Honestly, all I've got with that is anecdotes. I can contend that, as Ultras are kinda the "suggested" subfaction of Marines, you could have a lot of people who are going to their first tournament or just kinda happened into Ultras without really picking, diluting the pool of good players more than other factions, but that's just conjecture.

Right I don't dispute the possibility that better player gravitate to IH or w/e (but then you have to evenly apply that to other factions). There's a lot we don't know.

I'd say calling most competitive "csm" lists csm is a bit of a misnomer as pretty much any list containing csm is soup. It's pretty rare to see a true pure csm army at top tables.

Much less one comprising just one.

Fething.

Legion.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I doubt that UM are in the lower bracket.
My ranking would start with IH, IF, UM, Ravenguard, White Scars and GK would be the lowest ranked.

I do too, but according to Xeno, Ultras might as well not have a chapter tactic it's so bad.

I really doubt many of those ultramarine players playing pure Ultras. They are likely running successors. The low performance can easily be knocked up a little bit if that isnt the case. Successors are straight up better than Ultras (Nova marines ftw!). Havn't seen that data on what these Ultras lists looked like. However I am pretty confident most players have figured this out.

The chapter tactic is terrible. I face the same issue with Black Legion. Abbadon is a beast but the legion trait is basically like not having a trait.

why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.

I'm having difficulty against GK at the moment myself. Best army I have is a full primaris list, usually two repulsor exes with rerolls will give me the edge over the player.

The points reductions, new strats, tides and psychic causes a lot of damage. Ive played GSC and Orks against him and between all the shots and psychic I'll be lucky not to be tabled.

Any advice in playing against GK? He's building an infantry heavy brigade for the purposes of just spamming smite.

which type of space marines do you play? In general threat saturation, works really well. A strike costs like an normal bolter primaris with 2W. Also having push backers in the form of venguard space marines can help, if you strugle against something like a paladin bomb. Also tanks and vehicles are the bane of GK. you don't have to use an IH leviathan, even a primaris dreadnought or the scout dread can hurt GK real bad.

Also often the GK player is going to start with a large chunk of his army in reservs. If you play something like RG or RG succesors, or even other marines with 2-3 scout dreads, you can hurt a GK a lot going first.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, definitely. IH is broken broken-UM is just too good.

Winning 2.4 out of 5 games is...the same level of win rate as Necrons, Tyrnaids, CSM, and Sisters. That is what we consider "too good"?

*Shrug*

Honestly, all I've got with that is anecdotes. I can contend that, as Ultras are kinda the "suggested" subfaction of Marines, you could have a lot of people who are going to their first tournament or just kinda happened into Ultras without really picking, diluting the pool of good players more than other factions, but that's just conjecture.

Is there some kind of data that marines are a starter army of some kind? Because most new players I meet are looking at the models and just pick a first army they think is coolest. Sometimes that will be marines but a lot of times it is another army. I think the primary reason lots of players end up playing marines is over the years of multiple box deals you will inevitably end up with marines of some kind and end up building the army. I've also never seen anyone come in off the street and just fall in love with the Ultramarines. Likely someone will tell them not to play them and do something "cooler " like blood angels or space wolves. It is utterly nonsensical to apply these ideas over and over again as to why Ultras and really non IH/RG/IF armies aren't doing really well with their "broken" rules. The answer is pretty simple if you ask me. You are used to rolling over space marine players for the entirety of your gaming experience that it just feels wrong to you that a marine player can now roll you. Hint...Every army should be able to roll you. Just not at iron-hands level.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, definitely. IH is broken broken-UM is just too good.

Winning 2.4 out of 5 games is...the same level of win rate as Necrons, Tyrnaids, CSM, and Sisters. That is what we consider "too good"?

*Shrug*

Honestly, all I've got with that is anecdotes. I can contend that, as Ultras are kinda the "suggested" subfaction of Marines, you could have a lot of people who are going to their first tournament or just kinda happened into Ultras without really picking, diluting the pool of good players more than other factions, but that's just conjecture.

Is there some kind of data that marines are a starter army of some kind? Because most new players I meet are looking at the models and just pick a first army they think is coolest. Sometimes that will be marines but a lot of times it is another army. I think the primary reason lots of players end up playing marines is over the years of multiple box deals you will inevitably end up with marines of some kind and end up building the army. I've also never seen anyone come in off the street and just fall in love with the Ultramarines. Likely someone will tell them not to play them and do something "cooler " like blood angels or space wolves. It is utterly nonsensical to apply these ideas over and over again as to why Ultras and really non IH/RG/IF armies aren't doing really well with their "broken" rules. The answer is pretty simple if you ask me. You are used to rolling over space marine players for the entirety of your gaming experience that it just feels wrong to you that a marine player can now roll you. Hint...Every army should be able to roll you. Just not at iron-hands level.

My issues with Marines (of all stripes) is not that I cannot roll them. It's that I crush too easily with them-I've played Marines. And they're not fun-they're too powerful.

Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.

It is slightly less douche. Literally the only difference between the 2 is you can't take the special characters.

ah, we don't do stuff like that here. unless it is somehow a money thing. I would buy a SW army over an IH army, if the SW army was 1/3 of the cost.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, definitely. IH is broken broken-UM is just too good.

Winning 2.4 out of 5 games is...the same level of win rate as Necrons, Tyrnaids, CSM, and Sisters. That is what we consider "too good"?

*Shrug*

Honestly, all I've got with that is anecdotes. I can contend that, as Ultras are kinda the "suggested" subfaction of Marines, you could have a lot of people who are going to their first tournament or just kinda happened into Ultras without really picking, diluting the pool of good players more than other factions, but that's just conjecture.

Is there some kind of data that marines are a starter army of some kind? Because most new players I meet are looking at the models and just pick a first army they think is coolest. Sometimes that will be marines but a lot of times it is another army. I think the primary reason lots of players end up playing marines is over the years of multiple box deals you will inevitably end up with marines of some kind and end up building the army. I've also never seen anyone come in off the street and just fall in love with the Ultramarines. Likely someone will tell them not to play them and do something "cooler " like blood angels or space wolves. It is utterly nonsensical to apply these ideas over and over again as to why Ultras and really non IH/RG/IF armies aren't doing really well with their "broken" rules. The answer is pretty simple if you ask me. You are used to rolling over space marine players for the entirety of your gaming experience that it just feels wrong to you that a marine player can now roll you. Hint...Every army should be able to roll you. Just not at iron-hands level.

My issues with Marines (of all stripes) is not that I cannot roll them. It's that I crush too easily with them-I've played Marines. And they're not fun-they're too powerful.

It is my understanding that you play Nurgle daemons...which primarily revolve around invune saves anyways? Doctrines have done literally nothing against that. The Ultras super doctrine is decent - IMO it should just be the armies chapter tactic - however is it the additional attacks in CC that are giving you trouble? Or is it Null zone?

One thing is for sure - daemons don't auto win vs GK anymore. Even with resurrecting a unit every turn. 4 damage smite automatic is GG. LOL.

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
^ I was thinking they were around Black Templar level...maybe a bit higher.

Maybe a pro GK player will work out a build or playstyle pushing them to around BA/DA level in the future.

BT or DA seem to be around the same power level, especially considering they play well without a large contingent of Primaris.

Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.

maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.

maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons

Pretty much this here. I painted my dudes up as Ultramarines and I like the lore for Ultramarines. Marines aren't in such a bad spot anymore that every advantage I can get needs to be taken. Sure I could go with other chapters for better X but I just wanna play my dudes my way. At least that's my 2 cents

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.

maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons

still it makes no sense to play ultramarines, only without the ultramarines special characters. As it is kind of the thing that makes ultramarines good. I don't really get how paint on the model is suppose to effect the rules though. They could be grey or unpainted, and if someone says they are ultramarines, they are ultramarines.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.

maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons

still it makes no sense to play ultramarines, only without the ultramarines special characters. As it is kind of the thing that makes ultramarines good. I don't really get how paint on the model is suppose to effect the rules though. They could be grey or unpainted, and if someone says they are ultramarines, they are ultramarines.

you realize Karol that an ultramarines sucessor can use custom chapter tactics right?

and thus it's entirely possiable with say... bolter fulisades, stealthy, and the ability to move while counting as stationary? just for example.

Wish I could do that with Cadian successors but I'm not marines, sad face.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Wish I could do that with Cadian successors but I'm not marines, sad face.

It's one of those cases where I can understand it being only a marines thing but I DO wish other factions had their own "running a pure army without subfaction mixing by detachment? have a bonus!" to keep things even.

Explain please, how do you understand it only being a marine thing ? Just curious as I could see off shoot armies from cadia being used as successor groups, or catachans, etc, etc.

What puzzles me more is they didn't give that to Guard, when all people complain about is Guard soup and the release did nothing to stop that.

Yeah right. Nids are the living incarnation of evolutionary tactics through their splinter fleets, and they don't get it either.

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.

maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons

still it makes no sense to play ultramarines, only without the ultramarines special characters. As it is kind of the thing that makes ultramarines good. I don't really get how paint on the model is suppose to effect the rules though. They could be grey or unpainted, and if someone says they are ultramarines, they are ultramarines.

you realize Karol that an ultramarines sucessor can use custom chapter tactics right?

and thus it's entirely possiable with say... bolter fulisades, stealthy, and the ability to move while counting as stationary? just for example.

I know, but my question still stands. why would you do it? when you can be RG or IH sucessor? same colour, same models, better rules.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Explain please, how do you understand it only being a marine thing ? Just curious as I could see off shoot armies from cadia being used as successor groups, or catachans, etc, etc.

What puzzles me more is they didn't give that to Guard, when all people complain about is Guard soup and the release did nothing to stop that.

Because being a sucessor to a first founding chapter is a big part of the fluff of an identity of a space Marine chapter. Every chapter can trace it's orgins to a 1st founding chapter and primarch (well except ones like the blood ravens, and their entire identity is wrapped up in the fact that they CAN'T)

no other faction has that as being a factor, not even chaos (a chaos warband can be a mish mash of marines from all over after all)

that said other armies need some sort of "mono chapter tactic" bonus, right now space Marines are the only army that's basucly got a bonus for not running "one detachment with X rules, one detachment with Y rules" and thats something I'd like to see more armies given.

Guard could instead have it be a "regimental type" such as "siege regiment" "light horse regiment" "Line regiment" etc

Karol wrote:I know, but my question still stands. why would you do it? when you can be RG or IH sucessor? same colour, same models, better rules.

Because I care more about the background, aesthetic, and feel of my army than I do how well it plays?

My homebrew Chapter is a custom "Ultramarines"* successor, that's a big factor in how I've made them and I have no interest in slapping IH or RG rules on them when that's not what I've described them as being. I care less about the rules than I do the principle of "they're Ultramarine successors, so they'll use Ultramarine successor rules".

*technically, they're made up of a mixed geneseed Indomitus Crusade Greyshield force, but received a massive influx of Ultramarines geneseed and are commanded by an ex-Ultramarine, so nominally, they're Ultramarines.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Guard could instead have it be a "regimental type" such as "siege regiment" "light horse regiment" "Line regiment" etc

Regiment type would have been great.

You could have a system where you have a training doctrine (so, your current Cadian/Catachan/Tallarn etc rules), and then you can also pick from regiment doctrine as described above.

What I'd *really* like from the regiment doctrine is if it only applied per detachment, and could only be taken if the detachment did or didn't have certain models (ie, a light infantry regiment detachment cannot have any Leman Russes or artillery tanks) - if you wanted to take a mixed force, you take lots of detachments, or you take an explicitly "combined arms" regiment, which doesn't give out many bonuses.
Essentially, making it a little like the 30k Rites of War.

BrianDavion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Wish I could do that with Cadian successors but I'm not marines, sad face.

It's one of those cases where I can understand it being only a marines thing but I DO wish other factions had their own "running a pure army without subfaction mixing by detachment? have a bonus!" to keep things even.

Yeah it drfinitely would not make sense for tyranid splinter fleets literally related to the main hive fleets.

Or guard regiments modeled off of the main regiments.

To follow up on my previous comment, as expected played against a GK player in my local tournament. Paladin bomb, some strike squads and lots of characters including two GMNDK.

We were playing Lockdown and he got his deployment badly wrong by leaving too much in reserve. That meant my various troops and especially the Incursors managed to grab 4 objectives on the first 2 turns - a VP lead he could never overcome. However when his reserves did come in they were brutal - he ran an effectively indestructible wall of Paladins with his characters behind it buffing and smiting. If we had gone to turn 7 he probably would have tabled me (although I still would have been way ahead on VP because with the objectives going away each turn in that mission late scoring is harder than early game).

Very powerful army. If you don't have the tools to take out the characters or somehow just blow through the stacked defensive buffs on the Paladins they are a real handful.

Having learned his lesson he proceeded to table his two other opponents - which really helped me out as one of them was otherwise going to beat me to the top spot

Not sure if this has been posted already. It could certainly be usefull as a guide to make GK legit: https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-grey-knights-tactics/

 Nerak wrote:
Not sure if this has been posted already. It could certainly be usefull as a guide to make GK legit: https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-grey-knights-tactics/

A dual Paladin bomb is also suggested.
Seems a bit over the top as one can really only buff one squad.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

Based on my games you guys are hilariously wrong, but I don't play IH, so...YMMV

I'll reiterate this point. GK just went 6-0 at Beachead Brawl.

BC
Lib
3x5 Strikes

Chap
Voldus
3x5 Strikes
Apoth
10 Paladins
5 Paladins

He beat 3 RKs and disco, Custom CW, Orks (similar to top 8 LVO list), Pure DE, RG Successors, Possessed bomb with PBCs

BrianDavion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Explain please, how do you understand it only being a marine thing ? Just curious as I could see off shoot armies from cadia being used as successor groups, or catachans, etc, etc.

What puzzles me more is they didn't give that to Guard, when all people complain about is Guard soup and the release did nothing to stop that.

Because being a sucessor to a first founding chapter is a big part of the fluff of an identity of a space Marine chapter. Every chapter can trace it's orgins to a 1st founding chapter and primarch (well except ones like the blood ravens, and their entire identity is wrapped up in the fact that they CAN'T)

no other faction has that as being a factor, not even chaos (a chaos warband can be a mish mash of marines from all over after all)

that said other armies need some sort of "mono chapter tactic" bonus, right now space Marines are the only army that's basucly got a bonus for not running "one detachment with X rules, one detachment with Y rules" and thats something I'd like to see more armies given.

Guard could instead have it be a "regimental type" such as "siege regiment" "light horse regiment" "Line regiment" etc

Yes every faction should have a bonus to running a pure army. If nothing else it would cut down on soup which is difficult to balance.

And although many warbands may be made up of a mix of legions, many aren't. Remember one of the reasons the legions don't often unite for shared goals is that they don't play well with others. That's why Black Crusades are special: they're a rare example of different legions working together.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

Based on my games you guys are hilariously wrong, but I don't play IH, so...YMMV

I'll reiterate this point. GK just went 6-0 at Beachead Brawl.

BC
Lib
3x5 Strikes

Chap
Voldus
3x5 Strikes
Apoth
10 Paladins
5 Paladins

He beat 3 RKs and disco, Custom CW, Orks (similar to top 8 LVO list), Pure DE, RG Successors, Possessed bomb with PBCs

I'm really not shocked he killed the Chaos lists and Orks (LOL Storm Bolter on everyone), but I'm curious how the Dark Eldar and Raven Guard games went. Flayed Skull wouldn't care about the Cover Tide after all.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

Based on my games you guys are hilariously wrong, but I don't play IH, so...YMMV

I'll reiterate this point. GK just went 6-0 at Beachead Brawl.

BC
Lib
3x5 Strikes

Chap
Voldus
3x5 Strikes
Apoth
10 Paladins
5 Paladins

He beat 3 RKs and disco, Custom CW, Orks (similar to top 8 LVO list), Pure DE, RG Successors, Possessed bomb with PBCs

Tabletop Tactics' Lawrence Baker seems to have proven himself to be the Supreme Grand Master for all fellow GK players out there!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm really not shocked he killed the Chaos lists and Orks (LOL Storm Bolter on everyone), but I'm curious how the Dark Eldar and Raven Guard games went. Flayed Skull wouldn't care about the Cover Tide after all.

Beat RG by 2 points - 18 cents, 3 TFCs, 2 WW
DE was BH, Drazhar, 3 Ravs, 2 RWs, and 3 Venoms/Kabs plus 15 Wyches, Haemon, and 3 Talos

Very nice, and shows that the buff helps, even a lot when your a good player. Cool list too almost like the stuff I have with few differences. And good to know that GK suddenly became a hard counter to an annoying build like possessed bomb.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm really not shocked he killed the Chaos lists and Orks (LOL Storm Bolter on everyone), but I'm curious how the Dark Eldar and Raven Guard games went. Flayed Skull wouldn't care about the Cover Tide after all.

Beat RG by 2 points - 18 cents, 3 TFCs, 2 WW
DE was BH, Drazhar, 3 Ravs, 2 RWs, and 3 Venoms/Kabs plus 15 Wyches, Haemon, and 3 Talos

Was it a Successor?

Yea - LRM and MA

LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.

Based on my games you guys are hilariously wrong, but I don't play IH, so...YMMV

I'll reiterate this point. GK just went 6-0 at Beachead Brawl.

BC
Lib
3x5 Strikes

Chap
Voldus
3x5 Strikes
Apoth
10 Paladins
5 Paladins

He beat 3 RKs and disco, Custom CW, Orks (similar to top 8 LVO list), Pure DE, RG Successors, Possessed bomb with PBCs

I'm really not shocked he killed the Chaos lists and Orks (LOL Storm Bolter on everyone), but I'm curious how the Dark Eldar and Raven Guard games went. Flayed Skull wouldn't care about the Cover Tide after all.

Don't underestimate the MW tide (can't remember the name) - mass D2 smites adds up quickly (gods help you against daemons when D4 smites quickly delete entire units) and that's before the shooting phase.

GK are in a much better place overall

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen

It does when they punch. It's not like cover was saving them from MW.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen

It does when they punch. It's not like cover was saving them from MW.

keep in mind slayer-fan assumes everyone runs 100% optimized net lists with their armies custom crafted to abuse the rules the most.

he must be a "joy" to play against

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen

It does when they punch. It's not like cover was saving them from MW.

It's still gonna take 2 Strike Squads at minimum to kill one with mortal wounds. Also with punching, they have too many attacks to really benefit that much. Sounds silly I know, but the more you're packing in terms of attacks/shots and dudes, the less effective the Trait is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen

It does when they punch. It's not like cover was saving them from MW.

keep in mind slayer-fan assumes everyone runs 100% optimized net lists with their armies custom crafted to abuse the rules the most.

he must be a "joy" to play against

It was at a fething tournament...
I've also been saying Master Artisans was a bad choice for a long time. Surprise surprise as people slowly don't build for it and start losing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's still gonna take 2 Strike Squads at minimum to kill one with mortal wounds. Also with punching, they have too many attacks to really benefit that much. Sounds silly I know, but the more you're packing in terms of attacks/shots and dudes, the less effective the Trait is.

I understand the logic, but I think it is flawed.

1) Centurions only do damage w/i 12" and so stealth is often not on and many armies can ignore it
2) Centurions are bound to die. MA is essentially 2CP worth of rerolls on high quality attacks. That they're "buried" in large quantities of attacks doesn't make it useless especially as the unit size degrades.

A lot of people think of MA sequentially - 1 * .666 * .666 = 0.44 wounds extra, but that isn't how it works.

Now image 6 Stealth Cents and 5 MA Cents against a vehicle

25 * .666 * .666 = 10.6
(((21 * .666) + .666) * .666) + .666 = 10.4

For the trade off of cover at 12" the damage is nearly a wash.

These factors vary - a reroll on something wounded on a 2+ isn't as valuable, of course, but they have flamers/bolters for those targets anyway. Against a knight this means a unit of 4 Centurions still kills a knight wheres as without the chances are diminished.

For a singular Cent it is the equivalent of an extra 63% damage.

If you've got captains and LTs supporting then...no reason to bother with it, but if you want independent units with staying power it offers something of a reasonable choice.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's still gonna take 2 Strike Squads at minimum to kill one with mortal wounds. Also with punching, they have too many attacks to really benefit that much. Sounds silly I know, but the more you're packing in terms of attacks/shots and dudes, the less effective the Trait is.

I understand the logic, but I think it is flawed.

1) Centurions only do damage w/i 12" and so stealth is often not on and many armies can ignore it
2) Centurions are bound to die. MA is essentially 2CP worth of rerolls on high quality attacks. That they're "buried" in large quantities of attacks doesn't make it useless especially as the unit size degrades.

A lot of people think of MA sequentially - 1 * .666 * .666 = 0.44 wounds extra, but that isn't how it works.

Now image 6 Stealth Cents and 5 MA Cents against a vehicle

25 * .666 * .666 = 10.6
(((21 * .666) + .666) * .666) + .666 = 10.4

For the trade off of cover at 12" the damage is nearly a wash.

These factors vary - a reroll on something wounded on a 2+ isn't as valuable, of course, but they have flamers/bolters for those targets anyway. Against a knight this means a unit of 4 Centurions still kills a knight wheres as without the chances are diminished.

For a singular Cent it is the equivalent of an extra 63% damage.

If you've got captains and LTs supporting then...no reason to bother with it, but if you want independent units with staying power it offers something of a reasonable choice.

But how often would you really have cents without a CM + LT giving re-rolls? Outside from maybe an RG suicide goon squad..

 Argive wrote:


But how often would you really have cents without a CM + LT giving re-rolls? Outside from maybe an RG suicide goon squad..

Dunno - depends on points. Chaplains are pretty popular these days as are Libs. If you're not running a Chapter Master it isn't quite at effective. After all that there isn't usually room for an LT when running 18 Centurions.

LTs are only 60 points. There's room available.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LTs are only 60 points. There's room available.

Yea, but if you have to cover 3 units you'll probably need two on top of chaplain(s), lib, and captain(s). It depends what you want to do with the list. I couldn't say definitively which is better, but the all the top RG players at LVO were LRM / MA.

And as they start losing they'll eventually learn.

I mean Brad Chester went 9-0 before losing his final to Siegler. Pampreen went 7-0 and Fennell 6-0 before their loss.

I don't think they're going to learn anything any time soon.

The question is which is better. The question is which is more “efficient”. How many points do you save dropping 1 Centurion from three squads while keeping the “same” firepower? What other tools does that allow you to bring?

Or maybe they took Master artisan for the other 1000 points of the army that wasn't centurions?

I don't have 16k posts on dakka though so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

 vercingatorix wrote:
Or maybe they took Master artisan for the other 1000 points of the army that wasn't centurions?

I don't have 16k posts on dakka though so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

Umm, nope. MA on the 100% of the list. I don't think post count has anything to do with the actual data?

Pretty sure that was sarcasm Daedalus. Any new data on the Grey Knight's performance since their pa? Measuring up to the other loyalists?

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Pretty sure that was sarcasm Daedalus. Any new data on the Grey Knight's performance since their pa? Measuring up to the other loyalists?

Eh. My bad if so, but hard to read.

I see data posted with GK pulling 60% last weekend on 33 games. I'll dig deeper tomorrow.

SW also did 60%, which is weird.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Pretty sure that was sarcasm Daedalus. Any new data on the Grey Knight's performance since their pa? Measuring up to the other loyalists?

Eh. My bad if so, but hard to read.

I see data posted with GK pulling 60% last weekend on 33 games. I'll dig deeper tomorrow.

SW also did 60%, which is weird.

Probably an anomaly. If there were only two sw lists and they both did well then that would throw the numbers.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Probably an anomaly. If there were only two sw lists and they both did well then that would throw the numbers.

Says 30 games. Orks had 31 games and 57%, which was above Astartes, but not above IH which skyrocketed to 72% for 69 games.

I'll have to look at the tournaments.

Lawrence from TTT came 2nd with 6-0 GK at the Bournemouth GT

He run 2 10 man paladin squads, 6 x strikes valdos, apothecary, captain, and librarian I believe.

He started both units on the board.

Cast -1 to wound/sanctuary and or transhuman on the squads, and flung them up the board using gate. He charged them them into the lines and if failed made the opponent sink his army into them to try and kill them...

For those that want to have a listen he breaks down the tourney and his tactics. I was surprised they managed to deal with centurion spam or Eldar mech wall spam..

Heres the breakdown if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWs72q9kRCo

Paladins are scary...

GK are going to be sick as long as there is terrain on the board. They won't roll over people but they'll be to long game pretty much any itc/nova style events out there.

Astral aim cares not for your house ruled LOS terrain....

Now EAT MY 40 STR 6 -2 2D shots!!!