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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's still gonna take 2 Strike Squads at minimum to kill one with mortal wounds. Also with punching, they have too many attacks to really benefit that much. Sounds silly I know, but the more you're packing in terms of attacks/shots and dudes, the less effective the Trait is.

I understand the logic, but I think it is flawed.

1) Centurions only do damage w/i 12" and so stealth is often not on and many armies can ignore it
2) Centurions are bound to die. MA is essentially 2CP worth of rerolls on high quality attacks. That they're "buried" in large quantities of attacks doesn't make it useless especially as the unit size degrades.

A lot of people think of MA sequentially - 1 * .666 * .666 = 0.44 wounds extra, but that isn't how it works.

Now image 6 Stealth Cents and 5 MA Cents against a vehicle

25 * .666 * .666 = 10.6
(((21 * .666) + .666) * .666) + .666 = 10.4

For the trade off of cover at 12" the damage is nearly a wash.

These factors vary - a reroll on something wounded on a 2+ isn't as valuable, of course, but they have flamers/bolters for those targets anyway. Against a knight this means a unit of 4 Centurions still kills a knight wheres as without the chances are diminished.

For a singular Cent it is the equivalent of an extra 63% damage.

If you've got captains and LTs supporting then...no reason to bother with it, but if you want independent units with staying power it offers something of a reasonable choice.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's still gonna take 2 Strike Squads at minimum to kill one with mortal wounds. Also with punching, they have too many attacks to really benefit that much. Sounds silly I know, but the more you're packing in terms of attacks/shots and dudes, the less effective the Trait is.

I understand the logic, but I think it is flawed.

1) Centurions only do damage w/i 12" and so stealth is often not on and many armies can ignore it
2) Centurions are bound to die. MA is essentially 2CP worth of rerolls on high quality attacks. That they're "buried" in large quantities of attacks doesn't make it useless especially as the unit size degrades.

A lot of people think of MA sequentially - 1 * .666 * .666 = 0.44 wounds extra, but that isn't how it works.

Now image 6 Stealth Cents and 5 MA Cents against a vehicle

25 * .666 * .666 = 10.6
(((21 * .666) + .666) * .666) + .666 = 10.4

For the trade off of cover at 12" the damage is nearly a wash.

These factors vary - a reroll on something wounded on a 2+ isn't as valuable, of course, but they have flamers/bolters for those targets anyway. Against a knight this means a unit of 4 Centurions still kills a knight wheres as without the chances are diminished.

For a singular Cent it is the equivalent of an extra 63% damage.

If you've got captains and LTs supporting then...no reason to bother with it, but if you want independent units with staying power it offers something of a reasonable choice.

But how often would you really have cents without a CM + LT giving re-rolls? Outside from maybe an RG suicide goon squad..

 Argive wrote:


But how often would you really have cents without a CM + LT giving re-rolls? Outside from maybe an RG suicide goon squad..

Dunno - depends on points. Chaplains are pretty popular these days as are Libs. If you're not running a Chapter Master it isn't quite at effective. After all that there isn't usually room for an LT when running 18 Centurions.

LTs are only 60 points. There's room available.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LTs are only 60 points. There's room available.

Yea, but if you have to cover 3 units you'll probably need two on top of chaplain(s), lib, and captain(s). It depends what you want to do with the list. I couldn't say definitively which is better, but the all the top RG players at LVO were LRM / MA.

And as they start losing they'll eventually learn.

I mean Brad Chester went 9-0 before losing his final to Siegler. Pampreen went 7-0 and Fennell 6-0 before their loss.

I don't think they're going to learn anything any time soon.

The question is which is better. The question is which is more “efficient”. How many points do you save dropping 1 Centurion from three squads while keeping the “same” firepower? What other tools does that allow you to bring?

Or maybe they took Master artisan for the other 1000 points of the army that wasn't centurions?

I don't have 16k posts on dakka though so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

 vercingatorix wrote:
Or maybe they took Master artisan for the other 1000 points of the army that wasn't centurions?

I don't have 16k posts on dakka though so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

Umm, nope. MA on the 100% of the list. I don't think post count has anything to do with the actual data?

Pretty sure that was sarcasm Daedalus. Any new data on the Grey Knight's performance since their pa? Measuring up to the other loyalists?

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Pretty sure that was sarcasm Daedalus. Any new data on the Grey Knight's performance since their pa? Measuring up to the other loyalists?

Eh. My bad if so, but hard to read.

I see data posted with GK pulling 60% last weekend on 33 games. I'll dig deeper tomorrow.

SW also did 60%, which is weird.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Pretty sure that was sarcasm Daedalus. Any new data on the Grey Knight's performance since their pa? Measuring up to the other loyalists?

Eh. My bad if so, but hard to read.

I see data posted with GK pulling 60% last weekend on 33 games. I'll dig deeper tomorrow.

SW also did 60%, which is weird.

Probably an anomaly. If there were only two sw lists and they both did well then that would throw the numbers.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Probably an anomaly. If there were only two sw lists and they both did well then that would throw the numbers.

Says 30 games. Orks had 31 games and 57%, which was above Astartes, but not above IH which skyrocketed to 72% for 69 games.

I'll have to look at the tournaments.

Lawrence from TTT came 2nd with 6-0 GK at the Bournemouth GT

He run 2 10 man paladin squads, 6 x strikes valdos, apothecary, captain, and librarian I believe.

He started both units on the board.

Cast -1 to wound/sanctuary and or transhuman on the squads, and flung them up the board using gate. He charged them them into the lines and if failed made the opponent sink his army into them to try and kill them...

For those that want to have a listen he breaks down the tourney and his tactics. I was surprised they managed to deal with centurion spam or Eldar mech wall spam..

Heres the breakdown if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWs72q9kRCo

Paladins are scary...

GK are going to be sick as long as there is terrain on the board. They won't roll over people but they'll be to long game pretty much any itc/nova style events out there.

Astral aim cares not for your house ruled LOS terrain....

Now EAT MY 40 STR 6 -2 2D shots!!!