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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh, definitely. IH is broken broken-UM is just too good.


Winning 2.4 out of 5 games is...the same level of win rate as Necrons, Tyrnaids, CSM, and Sisters. That is what we consider "too good"?
*Shrug*

Honestly, all I've got with that is anecdotes. I can contend that, as Ultras are kinda the "suggested" subfaction of Marines, you could have a lot of people who are going to their first tournament or just kinda happened into Ultras without really picking, diluting the pool of good players more than other factions, but that's just conjecture.
Is there some kind of data that marines are a starter army of some kind? Because most new players I meet are looking at the models and just pick a first army they think is coolest. Sometimes that will be marines but a lot of times it is another army. I think the primary reason lots of players end up playing marines is over the years of multiple box deals you will inevitably end up with marines of some kind and end up building the army. I've also never seen anyone come in off the street and just fall in love with the Ultramarines. Likely someone will tell them not to play them and do something "cooler " like blood angels or space wolves. It is utterly nonsensical to apply these ideas over and over again as to why Ultras and really non IH/RG/IF armies aren't doing really well with their "broken" rules. The answer is pretty simple if you ask me. You are used to rolling over space marine players for the entirety of your gaming experience that it just feels wrong to you that a marine player can now roll you. Hint...Every army should be able to roll you. Just not at iron-hands level.
My issues with Marines (of all stripes) is not that I cannot roll them. It's that I crush too easily with them-I've played Marines. And they're not fun-they're too powerful.

It is my understanding that you play Nurgle daemons...which primarily revolve around invune saves anyways? Doctrines have done literally nothing against that. The Ultras super doctrine is decent - IMO it should just be the armies chapter tactic - however is it the additional attacks in CC that are giving you trouble? Or is it Null zone?

One thing is for sure - daemons don't auto win vs GK anymore. Even with resurrecting a unit every turn. 4 damage smite automatic is GG. LOL.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/07 19:52:35


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Waking Dreamer wrote:
^ I was thinking they were around Black Templar level...maybe a bit higher.

Maybe a pro GK player will work out a build or playstyle pushing them to around BA/DA level in the future.


BT or DA seem to be around the same power level, especially considering they play well without a large contingent of Primaris.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.


maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






BrianDavion wrote:
Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.


maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons


Pretty much this here. I painted my dudes up as Ultramarines and I like the lore for Ultramarines. Marines aren't in such a bad spot anymore that every advantage I can get needs to be taken. Sure I could go with other chapters for better X but I just wanna play my dudes my way. At least that's my 2 cents
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.


maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons


still it makes no sense to play ultramarines, only without the ultramarines special characters. As it is kind of the thing that makes ultramarines good. I don't really get how paint on the model is suppose to effect the rules though. They could be grey or unpainted, and if someone says they are ultramarines, they are ultramarines.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Karol wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.


maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons


still it makes no sense to play ultramarines, only without the ultramarines special characters. As it is kind of the thing that makes ultramarines good. I don't really get how paint on the model is suppose to effect the rules though. They could be grey or unpainted, and if someone says they are ultramarines, they are ultramarines.


you realize Karol that an ultramarines sucessor can use custom chapter tactics right?

and thus it's entirely possiable with say... bolter fulisades, stealthy, and the ability to move while counting as stationary? just for example.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wish I could do that with Cadian successors but I'm not marines, sad face.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





AngryAngel80 wrote:
Wish I could do that with Cadian successors but I'm not marines, sad face.


It's one of those cases where I can understand it being only a marines thing but I DO wish other factions had their own "running a pure army without subfaction mixing by detachment? have a bonus!" to keep things even.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Explain please, how do you understand it only being a marine thing ? Just curious as I could see off shoot armies from cadia being used as successor groups, or catachans, etc, etc.

What puzzles me more is they didn't give that to Guard, when all people complain about is Guard soup and the release did nothing to stop that.
   
Made in cz
Been Around the Block




Yeah right. Nids are the living incarnation of evolutionary tactics through their splinter fleets, and they don't get it either.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/09 10:44:06


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Karol wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Karol wrote:
why would you run ultra succesors instead of RG or IH ones?

I understand why someone may want to play ultramarines, but playing their succesors sounds very strange to me.


maybe because you like the UM strats etc? maybe you long ago eistablished your custom chapter as a UM sucessor? all sorts of reasons


still it makes no sense to play ultramarines, only without the ultramarines special characters. As it is kind of the thing that makes ultramarines good. I don't really get how paint on the model is suppose to effect the rules though. They could be grey or unpainted, and if someone says they are ultramarines, they are ultramarines.


you realize Karol that an ultramarines sucessor can use custom chapter tactics right?

and thus it's entirely possiable with say... bolter fulisades, stealthy, and the ability to move while counting as stationary? just for example.


I know, but my question still stands. why would you do it? when you can be RG or IH sucessor? same colour, same models, better rules.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





AngryAngel80 wrote:
Explain please, how do you understand it only being a marine thing ? Just curious as I could see off shoot armies from cadia being used as successor groups, or catachans, etc, etc.

What puzzles me more is they didn't give that to Guard, when all people complain about is Guard soup and the release did nothing to stop that.


Because being a sucessor to a first founding chapter is a big part of the fluff of an identity of a space Marine chapter. Every chapter can trace it's orgins to a 1st founding chapter and primarch (well except ones like the blood ravens, and their entire identity is wrapped up in the fact that they CAN'T)

no other faction has that as being a factor, not even chaos (a chaos warband can be a mish mash of marines from all over after all)

that said other armies need some sort of "mono chapter tactic" bonus, right now space Marines are the only army that's basucly got a bonus for not running "one detachment with X rules, one detachment with Y rules" and thats something I'd like to see more armies given.

Guard could instead have it be a "regimental type" such as "siege regiment" "light horse regiment" "Line regiment" etc

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

Karol wrote:I know, but my question still stands. why would you do it? when you can be RG or IH sucessor? same colour, same models, better rules.
Because I care more about the background, aesthetic, and feel of my army than I do how well it plays?

My homebrew Chapter is a custom "Ultramarines"* successor, that's a big factor in how I've made them and I have no interest in slapping IH or RG rules on them when that's not what I've described them as being. I care less about the rules than I do the principle of "they're Ultramarine successors, so they'll use Ultramarine successor rules".

*technically, they're made up of a mixed geneseed Indomitus Crusade Greyshield force, but received a massive influx of Ultramarines geneseed and are commanded by an ex-Ultramarine, so nominally, they're Ultramarines.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Guard could instead have it be a "regimental type" such as "siege regiment" "light horse regiment" "Line regiment" etc
Regiment type would have been great.

You could have a system where you have a training doctrine (so, your current Cadian/Catachan/Tallarn etc rules), and then you can also pick from regiment doctrine as described above.

What I'd *really* like from the regiment doctrine is if it only applied per detachment, and could only be taken if the detachment did or didn't have certain models (ie, a light infantry regiment detachment cannot have any Leman Russes or artillery tanks) - if you wanted to take a mixed force, you take lots of detachments, or you take an explicitly "combined arms" regiment, which doesn't give out many bonuses.
Essentially, making it a little like the 30k Rites of War.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/09 13:04:46


Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
Rippy wrote:Never forgetti, template spaghetti.
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Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





BrianDavion wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Wish I could do that with Cadian successors but I'm not marines, sad face.


It's one of those cases where I can understand it being only a marines thing but I DO wish other factions had their own "running a pure army without subfaction mixing by detachment? have a bonus!" to keep things even.


Yeah it drfinitely would not make sense for tyranid splinter fleets literally related to the main hive fleets.

Or guard regiments modeled off of the main regiments.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




To follow up on my previous comment, as expected played against a GK player in my local tournament. Paladin bomb, some strike squads and lots of characters including two GMNDK.

We were playing Lockdown and he got his deployment badly wrong by leaving too much in reserve. That meant my various troops and especially the Incursors managed to grab 4 objectives on the first 2 turns - a VP lead he could never overcome. However when his reserves did come in they were brutal - he ran an effectively indestructible wall of Paladins with his characters behind it buffing and smiting. If we had gone to turn 7 he probably would have tabled me (although I still would have been way ahead on VP because with the objectives going away each turn in that mission late scoring is harder than early game).

Very powerful army. If you don't have the tools to take out the characters or somehow just blow through the stacked defensive buffs on the Paladins they are a real handful.

Having learned his lesson he proceeded to table his two other opponents - which really helped me out as one of them was otherwise going to beat me to the top spot
   
Made in se
Member of the Malleus





Not sure if this has been posted already. It could certainly be usefull as a guide to make GK legit: https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-grey-knights-tactics/

His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Nerak wrote:
Not sure if this has been posted already. It could certainly be usefull as a guide to make GK legit: https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-grey-knights-tactics/

A dual Paladin bomb is also suggested.
Seems a bit over the top as one can really only buff one squad.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.


Based on my games you guys are hilariously wrong, but I don't play IH, so...YMMV


I'll reiterate this point. GK just went 6-0 at Beachead Brawl.

BC
Lib
3x5 Strikes

Chap
Voldus
3x5 Strikes
Apoth
10 Paladins
5 Paladins

He beat 3 RKs and disco, Custom CW, Orks (similar to top 8 LVO list), Pure DE, RG Successors, Possessed bomb with PBCs

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/09 17:40:16


   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine



The dark hollows of Kentucky

BrianDavion wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Explain please, how do you understand it only being a marine thing ? Just curious as I could see off shoot armies from cadia being used as successor groups, or catachans, etc, etc.

What puzzles me more is they didn't give that to Guard, when all people complain about is Guard soup and the release did nothing to stop that.


Because being a sucessor to a first founding chapter is a big part of the fluff of an identity of a space Marine chapter. Every chapter can trace it's orgins to a 1st founding chapter and primarch (well except ones like the blood ravens, and their entire identity is wrapped up in the fact that they CAN'T)

no other faction has that as being a factor, not even chaos (a chaos warband can be a mish mash of marines from all over after all)

that said other armies need some sort of "mono chapter tactic" bonus, right now space Marines are the only army that's basucly got a bonus for not running "one detachment with X rules, one detachment with Y rules" and thats something I'd like to see more armies given.

Guard could instead have it be a "regimental type" such as "siege regiment" "light horse regiment" "Line regiment" etc

Yes every faction should have a bonus to running a pure army. If nothing else it would cut down on soup which is difficult to balance.

And although many warbands may be made up of a mix of legions, many aren't. Remember one of the reasons the legions don't often unite for shared goals is that they don't play well with others. That's why Black Crusades are special: they're a rare example of different legions working together.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.


Based on my games you guys are hilariously wrong, but I don't play IH, so...YMMV


I'll reiterate this point. GK just went 6-0 at Beachead Brawl.

BC
Lib
3x5 Strikes

Chap
Voldus
3x5 Strikes
Apoth
10 Paladins
5 Paladins

He beat 3 RKs and disco, Custom CW, Orks (similar to top 8 LVO list), Pure DE, RG Successors, Possessed bomb with PBCs

I'm really not shocked he killed the Chaos lists and Orks (LOL Storm Bolter on everyone), but I'm curious how the Dark Eldar and Raven Guard games went. Flayed Skull wouldn't care about the Cover Tide after all.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.


Based on my games you guys are hilariously wrong, but I don't play IH, so...YMMV


I'll reiterate this point. GK just went 6-0 at Beachead Brawl.

BC
Lib
3x5 Strikes

Chap
Voldus
3x5 Strikes
Apoth
10 Paladins
5 Paladins

He beat 3 RKs and disco, Custom CW, Orks (similar to top 8 LVO list), Pure DE, RG Successors, Possessed bomb with PBCs


Tabletop Tactics' Lawrence Baker seems to have proven himself to be the Supreme Grand Master for all fellow GK players out there!

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm really not shocked he killed the Chaos lists and Orks (LOL Storm Bolter on everyone), but I'm curious how the Dark Eldar and Raven Guard games went. Flayed Skull wouldn't care about the Cover Tide after all.


Beat RG by 2 points - 18 cents, 3 TFCs, 2 WW
DE was BH, Drazhar, 3 Ravs, 2 RWs, and 3 Venoms/Kabs plus 15 Wyches, Haemon, and 3 Talos

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Very nice, and shows that the buff helps, even a lot when your a good player. Cool list too almost like the stuff I have with few differences. And good to know that GK suddenly became a hard counter to an annoying build like possessed bomb.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm really not shocked he killed the Chaos lists and Orks (LOL Storm Bolter on everyone), but I'm curious how the Dark Eldar and Raven Guard games went. Flayed Skull wouldn't care about the Cover Tide after all.


Beat RG by 2 points - 18 cents, 3 TFCs, 2 WW
DE was BH, Drazhar, 3 Ravs, 2 RWs, and 3 Venoms/Kabs plus 15 Wyches, Haemon, and 3 Talos

Was it a Successor?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/09 20:18:06


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Yea - LRM and MA

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:

GK are still at the very bottom.
Our Black Templars and Salamanders players here will certainly object.


Based on my games you guys are hilariously wrong, but I don't play IH, so...YMMV


I'll reiterate this point. GK just went 6-0 at Beachead Brawl.

BC
Lib
3x5 Strikes

Chap
Voldus
3x5 Strikes
Apoth
10 Paladins
5 Paladins

He beat 3 RKs and disco, Custom CW, Orks (similar to top 8 LVO list), Pure DE, RG Successors, Possessed bomb with PBCs

I'm really not shocked he killed the Chaos lists and Orks (LOL Storm Bolter on everyone), but I'm curious how the Dark Eldar and Raven Guard games went. Flayed Skull wouldn't care about the Cover Tide after all.


Don't underestimate the MW tide (can't remember the name) - mass D2 smites adds up quickly (gods help you against daemons when D4 smites quickly delete entire units) and that's before the shooting phase.

GK are in a much better place overall




"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 1700 | 3600 | 2100 | 550

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen


It does when they punch. It's not like cover was saving them from MW.

   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen


It does when they punch. It's not like cover was saving them from MW.


keep in mind slayer-fan assumes everyone runs 100% optimized net lists with their armies custom crafted to abuse the rules the most.

he must be a "joy" to play against

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen


It does when they punch. It's not like cover was saving them from MW.

It's still gonna take 2 Strike Squads at minimum to kill one with mortal wounds. Also with punching, they have too many attacks to really benefit that much. Sounds silly I know, but the more you're packing in terms of attacks/shots and dudes, the less effective the Trait is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL no wonder. Models like Centurions get NOTHING from Master Artisans. If you're gonna make a list, choose the good stuff: Stealthy and Long Range Marksmen


It does when they punch. It's not like cover was saving them from MW.


keep in mind slayer-fan assumes everyone runs 100% optimized net lists with their armies custom crafted to abuse the rules the most.

he must be a "joy" to play against

It was at a fething tournament...
I've also been saying Master Artisans was a bad choice for a long time. Surprise surprise as people slowly don't build for it and start losing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 03:47:01


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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