Guilliman is the current Savior of the Imperium. But is he also it's current and greatest threat?

Roboute created the Codex Astartes to protect the Imperium of Man from someone like Horus and also potentially,... Himself.

The Codex Astartes helps make it so that no one person would ever be able to amass, control, and manage a military force so large, that they could ever pose a threat to the imperium as a whole... As Horus once did.

With that in mind, in theory, is not Roboute Guilliman currently the biggest violator of the Codex Astartes. Guilliman currently carries not only all Imperial military might, but also the sword of the Emperor, displaying more power and authority than Horus ever had.

Roboute may be the biggest Horisian threat the Empire of Man will ever see.

Surely if Lion El Johnson were to return now. It would seem to him that Roboute became Emperor just like Johnson thought Roboute was secretly trying to do all along.

Quietly I hope that the Lion will take a bit more of a modest stance and either agree to take the mantle of warmaster (ironically), or at least acknowledge that Bobby G isn't the fraud he thought he was.

In reality he'll probably have huge beef with it and decide that it should be him in that situation and decry him as you say.

Dudeface wrote:
Quietly I hope that the Lion will take a bit more of a modest stance and either agree to take the mantle of warmaster (ironically), or at least acknowledge that Bobby G isn't the fraud he thought he was.

In reality he'll probably have huge beef with it and decide that it should be him in that situation and decry him as you say.

Given that the only person in the Empire that is in a position to wake the Lion up is Roboute Gulliman (as only the Emperor knows he's fully healed in stasis), the Lion doesn't get an opinion, and if Robby G does finally kick his can out of his sleep pod, he can complain to the Corpse Throne first and foremost.

Yea it is kinda a shame that we haven't seen more backlash against Roboute seizing power over the Imperium.

I would point out that we don't need another bloomin' Primarch to come back from the grave to do that kind of story, we could just give some agency to human characters again

We already see that there is backlash in the novels, and there's a whole civil war between the people Guilliman has making a unified calendar and the Ordo Chronos, or whomever is responsible for trying to keep the however many calendars straight.

We know out of story that the Emperor gave Guilliman direct control over the Imperium to lead it back on the right path.

The Codex Astartes is for Space Marine chapters, and Guilliman isn't a Space Marine. The Imperium has had Lord Commanders/War Masters in the last ten thousand years that's commanded Space Marine chapters, even after the Heresy.

A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Everything’s a long game when you get fridged for 10000 years.

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

No arguments here!

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

Way less dull than noblebright demigod superhero kings.

There can be good people in 40K, but they should not be the ones in position of power. It goes against the grimdark.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

Again, no arguments here!

I actually usually strongly prefer playing "good guys" in games, especially in RPGs (tabletop or video game). 40k is a bit of an outlier (partly because there aren't any genuinely 'good' factions), but the shear over-the-top cartoonish moustache-twirling depravity of factions like Drukhari, Emperor's Children or Word Bearers makes them a lot more fun and a lot less uncomfortable to me than something closer to home and real-world-sorta-evil, like… say… Caesar's Legion in New Vegas.

"Everyone is morally compromised, as is the nature of warfare" = Good!
"Nobody's intentions are sincere, nobody's motives are what they appear to be" = Annoying and tedious.

But Guilliman, as a particular loyalist character, just strikes me as really, really boring and one-dimensional. It might just be that I don't "get" him, but… I find him way more dull than other "good guy" Primarchs like Sanguinius, Vulkan, or The Khan.

nataliereed1984 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

Again, no arguments here!

I actually usually strongly prefer playing "good guys" in games, especially in RPGs (tabletop or video game). 40k is a bit of an outlier (partly because there aren't any genuinely 'good' factions), but the shear over-the-top cartoonish moustache-twirling depravity of factions like Drukhari, Emperor's Children or Word Bearers makes them a lot more fun and a lot less uncomfortable to me than something closer to home and real-world-sorta-evil, like… say… Caesar's Legion in New Vegas.

"Everyone is morally compromised, as is the nature of warfare" = Good!
"Nobody's intentions are sincere, nobody's motives are what they appear to be" = Annoying and tedious.

But Guilliman, as a particular loyalist character, just strikes me as really, really boring and one-dimensional. It might just be that I don't "get" him, but… I find him way more dull than other "good guy" Primarchs like Sanguinius, Vulkan, or The Khan.

The amount that I agree with pretty much every post I've seen you post is getting astounding.

I jumped on board of 40k because of orks, but I've been looking for another faction to double up on. But after learning the lore, I concluded that every part of the Imperium is terrible and most of the other xenos are boring. At least the traitors have tragic back stories that make them endearing.

Ultimately I feel that in grimdark it works better if the good guys are underdogs. A heroic Imperial Guard captain who really cares about his soldiers and tries his best to protect the civilians, but gets constantly fethed over by his callous superiors is cool. A heroic demigod that gets handed reins of the Imperium not so much.

 Crimson wrote:
Ultimately I feel that in grimdark it works better if the good guys are underdogs. A heroic Imperial Guard captain who really cares about his soldiers and tries his best to protect the civilians, but gets constantly fethed over by his callous superiors is cool. A heroic demigod that gets handed reins of the Imperium not so much.

Yeah, that's a good point.

I said elsewhere recently that absolutely under no circumstances would I want the story to shift to a point where the Imperium have a genuine hope of "winning the war", and that it would, IMO, utterly undermine everything 40k stands for and that makes it interesting and unique.

Haasbioroid:

Thanks!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

Agreed. The idea that "you can't have nice things in 40k" has never been true for me, and "no-one can be be 'good' except these random guardsmen" doesn't work for me.

Despair and grimdark don't need to be caused by everyone being a double-crossing, self-obsessed, a-hole, but from the circumstances of the world ensuring that the actions of good people cannot have lasting effects. Essentially, that lasting victory and the destruction of oppressive mechanics of the 40k galaxy are forever out of reach - which is exactly what we're seeing with nearly every faction. Guilliman has not, and cannot, truly unite the Imperium and fulfil his father's dreams, because the Imperium is held together by the Ecclesiarchy, which Guilliman despises.
Abaddon has not reached Terra, and cannot truly trust the gods supporting him, or the armies at his back, who fall into infighting and their own conquests.

It seems like we're all roughly on the same page here, really:

- A big noblebright Ancient Chosen One warrior-hero with a magic sword swooping in to save the day by killing the baddies, like out of any generic sci-fi / fantasy thing, would be absolutely awful and utterly contradictory to everything unique and interesting about 40k.

- A setting wherein absolutely nobody ever has sincere, good intentions would be tedious and stupid and pretentious and have nothing interesting to say. The grim darkness and intractable futility of 40k should come from systemic issues, the fundamentally flawed or self-defeating nature of certain kinds of societies and ideologies, and the way certain methods and approaches undermine their own goals, no matter how sincere and well-intentioned.

you can do grimdark even with a char like Gulliman, the trick is to ensure that noble intentions get perverted. the fate of Iax is an EXCELLENT example. Gulliman decides to set up a hostpial to treat wounded and sick soldiers, as opposed to just killing them. the result? Nurgle takes over Iax. this is grimdark because you quickly see that "no good deed goes unpunished" it's not a few hard hearted people at the top. beucrats muddling everything up. the UNIVERSE punishes good actions

I like Roboute and Abaddon. They're both genuine. They're both the best men for the job. They're both heldback by juggling the demands of various stakeholders while trying not to sacrifice their own vision for the Imperium.

Their tragedy is while they are superhuman bad asses with super swords, their swords will never be sharp enough to cut through the politics, bureaucracy and infighting of their allies.

Roboute Guilliman had openly stated during the Horus Heresy that he would never be the leader of Imperium Secundus, as it would look like a power-grab/consolidation of power within the Ultramar system and instigate another civil war. Instead, he wanted another to take the mantle (i.e. Sanguinius). Just like in any viable society, there must always be a set structure or hierarchy, and the Imperium has to have things flowing 'smoothly' since the High Lords of Terra have made the environment stagnant. A person with a mindset of strategic brilliance like Guilliman's is welcomed with open arms to most. Yes, Lion El'Jonson and others may raise their hand and object to such leadership, but at the end of the day, it's down to survival of man and there is no place for ego and pride. I don't see any of the other Primarchs getting up to do the job. They're in a state of self-imposed exile, trapped, or dead. Guilliman has broken up parts of the Imperium's power to certain trustworthy individuals, like Dante being the Warden of the Imperium Nihilus. He is trying to provide balance while walking a very fine line.

I kind of feel like a character like guilliman is important as his views help show how grim dark the reality is.

Plus from the books i get the impression he isn't particulay loyal to the emperor any more. he isn't doing things for the emperor he is instead doing it beacuse a) he wants to save humanity and b) its the right thing to do

which in an of its self means that the top man of the emperors realm is technically a traitor

 Crazyterran wrote:
We already see that there is backlash in the novels, and there's a whole civil war between the people Guilliman has making a unified calendar and the Ordo Chronos, or whomever is responsible for trying to keep the however many calendars straight.

Yea it has got a few mentions so far which have been cool, but I want to see more of it. To get to be a High Lord must take a truly breathtaking amount of ambition, skulduggery and hypocrisy. Whilst them towing the line to Guilliman initially is fine, it would be cool if as time wears they start digging the boot in on their new rival!

 Kroem wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
We already see that there is backlash in the novels, and there's a whole civil war between the people Guilliman has making a unified calendar and the Ordo Chronos, or whomever is responsible for trying to keep the however many calendars straight.

Yea it has got a few mentions so far which have been cool, but I want to see more of it. To get to be a High Lord must take a truly breathtaking amount of ambition, skulduggery and hypocrisy. Whilst them towing the line to Guilliman initially is fine, it would be cool if as time wears they start digging the boot in on their new rival!

direct action against Gulliman by the highlords is proably impossiable. Gulliman has already shown he's MORE then willing to take action agaisnt trouble makers, it's worth noting that before the indomatus crusade launched her PURGED Terra of heritics and trouble makers, the consol pre-emertis of the navigators guild was outright flogged when he tried to hold up the crusade until the navigator houses where granted "rich rewards" (ref: july 2019 white dwarf) so yeah even before Gulliman set out he ensured that the worst of the trouble was dealt with, he also created a new logistical orginization for the crusade with fairly impressive powers to ram stuff through.

Leatherjacket9 wrote:
Guilliman is the current Savior of the Imperium. But is he also it's current and greatest threat?

Roboute created the Codex Astartes to protect the Imperium of Man from someone like Horus and also potentially,... Himself...

With that in mind, in theory, is not Roboute Guilliman currently the biggest violator of the Codex Astartes...

Edition Wars: now in the background as well as the meta-conversation!

The space elves had a hand in the resurrection of Roboute. A race with a 10,000 year old genocidal grudge against humanity. Their SOP is lies, Illusions, and mind control. So no, no trust their.

Although it would be very GRIMDARK for Roboute to be the most loyal, for everyone to doubt him and conspire against him, then kill him. Afterwards finding out HE had been the most loyal all along.......BWAHAHAHA...sob sob....BWAHAHAHA....sniff snif....

 Red Marine wrote:

Although it would be very GRIMDARK for Roboute to be the most loyal, for everyone to doubt him and conspire against him, then kill him. Afterwards finding out HE had been the most loyal all along.......BWAHAHAHA...sob sob....BWAHAHAHA....sniff snif....

Yep. that would work.

Leatherjacket9 wrote:


With that in mind, in theory, is not Roboute Guilliman currently the biggest violator of the Codex Astartes. .

nope, space marine chapters are still ~1000 men strong.

Space Marine Chapters are a little differant now, but Gulliman's been revising the codex

My headcannon is Guilliman had a “Horus” moment when he saw the Emperor...as in “Wow Emp you really do suck I could do SUCH a better job” and decided to put all his ideas (which the emperor probably suppressed) into action. Basically he’s Horus without the Chaos and without the resistance.

 greyknight12 wrote:
My headcannon is Guilliman had a “Horus” moment when he saw the Emperor...as in “Wow Emp you really do suck I could do SUCH a better job” and decided to put all his ideas (which the emperor probably suppressed) into action. Basically he’s Horus without the Chaos and without the resistance.

Can you blame him though? As Guilliman stated:

Roboute Guilliman wrote:The Emperor loves no one man. He cannot afford affection - that is the honest practical for the impossible task that faces the Master of Mankind. He did not love His sons, He does not love men, but He does love mankind.

The Emperor has completely detached himself from humanity the further he exists. Roboute Guilliman saw the Emperor for what he has become and Guilliman has the emotions and the intellectual mindset to help humanity to survive, which the Emperor now lacks.

A friend of mine used to like pointing out that you can’t have a light without a dark to put it in.

My steady retaliation was that without a light, you have no shades of darkness.

The GrimDark needs contrast. Shining knights to show the shades of darkness surrounding them. Guilliman may have an unappealing Lawful Good nature, it just contrasts the more starkly with the Lawful Neutral (arguably with evil tendencies) nature of the existing regime.

Success for the “good” guys should be as rare as elevation to Daemon Prince. If failure is a foregone conclusion, there is no dramatic tension. True success for the bad guys is a one in a billion shot, so too should the good guys have a shot. It may cost everything, just as elevation to Daemon Prince costs everything... but it needs to be possible.

 greatbigtree wrote:
A friend of mine used to like pointing out that you can’t have a light without a dark to put it in.

My steady retaliation was that without a light, you have no shades of darkness.

The GrimDark needs contrast. Shining knights to show the shades of darkness surrounding them. Guilliman may have an unappealing Lawful Good nature, it just contrasts the more starkly with the Lawful Neutral (arguably with evil tendencies) nature of the existing regime.

Success for the “good” guys should be as rare as elevation to Daemon Prince. If failure is a foregone conclusion, there is no dramatic tension. True success for the bad guys is a one in a billion shot, so too should the good guys have a shot. It may cost everything, just as elevation to Daemon Prince costs everything... but it needs to be possible.

I don't know If failure being a foregone conclusion necessarily precludes dramatic tension. The world is absolutely FULL of good stories where everyone knew failure is the end result. You just build the story around other questions, like "how long can they hold out?", "what is the manner of their downfall?", "do they manage to achieve some secondary gain before the end?", "do they maintain their integrity / friendship / love / whatever despite the circumstances?", "are they able to seed some kind of hope or benefit for the future, however scant, before losing?", and so on.

Just like "the good guys will win" doesn't preclude dramatic tension in the majority of stories. And just like stories can still be told about historical events we already know the outcome of. And just like certain myths and folklore and stories get told and retold over and over again in different ways, even though everyone already knows the arc.

And just like we were able to have an entire book series about the Horus Heresy despite already knowing the ending.

Also, this is just a personal interpretation, but I definitely would call the Imperium a Lawful Evil society if I were recreating it in a D&D campaign or somesuch. It's *citizens* run the full range of the alignment chart, but the Imperium itself is almost an archetypal example of a Lawful Evil society. Such as "all other societies and all dissent from our law must be mercilessly eradicated, no matter what". I think the T'au are a much, much stronger example of Lawful Neutral. Again, almost archetypically so.

I think we’re saying the same thing. I’m not referring to “success” as survival, but in being able to create lasting positive benefit. Like, sacrificing oneself to seal the daemonic gate, saving the world / system / galaxy from destruction. That needs to be possible.

In my defence, I don’t find historical drama to have the same hook as true fiction. The good guys usually win, but not always. See Cujo by Stephen King for a real kick in the heart. It’s my biggest issue with Prequels. I know the success / failure, or at the very least survival, of the known characters is a given.

That’s me, and not everyone. I’ve never read any of the Horus Heresy. I already know how it ends. But I also like the advancing timeline of 40k, because it moves into the unknown. Not everyone likes that.

Regarding my seeing the Imperium as LN instead of LE, it is related to motivation. The Imperium is *uncaring*. The process is selfish, but uncaring of the harm inflicted. It’s a cost of doing business. Callous. It is a means to an end.

Compared to Chaos (in most 40k fiction) that revels in the harm. Growing strong on the infliction of fear and terror. They *enjoy* the harm. It is an end, and means.

Well, the kinds of smaller scale successes you mean do happen all the time in 40k. Worlds are saved, rifts are closed, rituals are stopped, civilians are evacuated, yada yada. What makes it interesting is the fact that in the big picture, the tools of war and violence and dominance aren't going to save anyone. The Imperium can't save itself from Chaos as long as they keep clinging to the idea of humans being the dominant ( and sole) species of the galaxy with a single unified society. The Aeldari can't save themselves so long as they keep narrowly, selfishly focusing only the survival of their own species and souls, ignoring the larger threats to the galaxy as a whole, and constantly betraying their potential allies for their own short-term benefit and thereby making further alliances impossible. The T'au's imperialist, expansionist mentality is just waltzing themselves right into the waiting jaws of the Tyranids and the death rays the Necrons. Etc.

"Kill all the orcs in the dungeon to save the nearby village!", other game systems were saying.

"You can't save the day just by killing all the baddies; attempting to solve problems through genocide and war and such just breeds different problems later", 40k replied.

As for the Imperium being uncaring:

I disagree! They care a great, great deal about the dominance of humanity, the eradication of Xenos and mutants, the maintenance of the Imperial Cult, and the suppression of all dissent! There's TONS of stuff the Imperium does for reasons besides practicality.

I mean, just look at their architecture.

Again, I mean that they don’t care about the harm they inflict in order to accomplish their ends. Exterminatus of a world to prevent *greater disaster* is a matter of algebra, not of malice or nihilistic glee. It is the final option. It is the certain solution, when all other signs point to failure to contain.

Like quarantine. You stop the spread of the disease. Simple math, regardless of the harm to the quarantined.

I agree that Humanity can’t stop Chaos, any more than they can stop gravity or magnetism. They are a force in that universe. But I also believe that the forces can be overcome for our practical purposes. Gravity will eventually pull buildings back to the earth, but for our practical purposes, we’ll likely choose to bring those buildings down for our own reasons before nature takes its course.

Similarly, Humanity can resist Chaos and thrive despite its existence. Being of CG alignment, I see totalitarianism as a moral “evil” for lack of better term. Even if it were capable of creating “good” it would do so by the wrong means. So to me the doom of the Imperium is unlikely. You have a God of Order opposed to the Gods of Chaos (disorder). They will find (overall) neutrality as a result. The forces of the universe balance out. Ironically, the bitter opposition to Chaos is the fuel that makes them strong. Were the Imperium willing / able to not seek dominion of the entire Galaxy, the powers would naturally wax and wane like modern countries do. The borders might be in a state of struggle, but the “core” of the Imperium would be more stable. Path of least resistance. If Chaos can do it’s thing over there without needing to oppose the Imperium here, they would likely do so.

Which would make for a boring setting... and why they don’t do that.

Well, I've never really thought of the "evil" end of the alignment spectrum as meaning "knowingly does evil things for the sake of doing evil things". It means being selfish, cruel, lacking in empathy towards others, and wiling to do awful things to achieve your ends. The Imperium meets every single one of those criteria: it selfishly wants total galactic dominance, it's cruel to other races and to its dissenters, it has no empathy for anyone outside the Imperium's strictures, and it does awful things to ensure not only its survival but also its domination and homogeneity. I see "Neutral" as being either amorality (like an animal, for example), where good vs evil, selfless vs. selfish and so on just aren't meaningfully entering into things, being so strongly focused on the law/order alignment axis that good/evil absolutely pales in comparison and fails to seriously impact your decisions, or just not quite being good enough for good or evil enough for evil.

I suppose the best way to put it is: if the Imperium are LN, then what are the T'au? Certainly not LG. And it would be pretty weird to say they're the same alignment.

We may just have different lines in the sand when it comes to where alignments are separated. To me, most people are interested in the well being of their friends and family, but care little to nothing about strangers. They are “selfish” in that they are ambivalent to the suffering of others. They enact no direct harm on others, but take no personal risks to attempt to improve the lot of a stranger, either. If they’re attacked, they defend themselves, but would not enact violence unprovoked. On a Galactic scale, that’s where I see the Imperium. Indifferent to the suffering of strangers / others, but willing to react with violence when threatened. (Even if the definition of “threatened” is so loose as to include existing.)

To a Chaotic Good, murdering an Evil Tyrant (unlawful) can create the potential for a better replacement (good). It could *potentially* serve a greater good to do so publicly, viciously, even sadistically to ensure the replacement knows their fate should they fail in their duties.

Again, likely the Chaotic nature of my point of view, the Good is determined not by the action, but by the will behind the action. Is it done for pleasure? Possibly. Retribution for the harm could be quite satisfying. In the end, the will of the slayer would be to create a future more likely to bring good to the people. And that’s what would make an otherwise monstrous activity support a greater good.

I had couched my earlier statement in the Imperium having evil tendencies. The line between callous and depraved is thin. I agree that prejudice and xenophobia, leading to violence against the helpless is evil in our reality. In 40k, it can be a means of survival. You can’t reason with a Tyranid, or an Ork, or a Daemon. There are scenarios where the reaction is “neutral” as a means of self-protection.

Drawing the line between neutral (selfish, indifferent) and evil (cruel for pleasure) is part of my definition. To be neutral, don’t actively make things worse. To be evil, actively make things worse with the *intent* to do so, for reason/s that benefit you, regardless of what that benefit is.

 greatbigtree wrote:
We may just have different lines in the sand when it comes to where alignments are separated. To me, most people are interested in the well being of their friends and family, but care little to nothing about strangers. They are “selfish” in that they are ambivalent to the suffering of others. They enact no direct harm on others, but take no personal risks to attempt to improve the lot of a stranger, either. If they’re attacked, they defend themselves, but would not enact violence unprovoked. On a Galactic scale, that’s where I see the Imperium. Indifferent to the suffering of strangers / others, but willing to react with violence when threatened. (Even if the definition of “threatened” is so loose as to include existing.

I mean, you're right that we do seem to define alignments a little differently, and that's no big... most people have slightly different interpretations! Buuuut... regarding your other points, the thing is, the Imperium very, very, very much DOES attack people unprovoked! They go on crusades of conquest all the time, and see ANY Xenos, no matter how peaceful and non-threatening, as an affront on their "rightful ownership" of the galaxy! And, making it even worse, they won't even negotiate terms of surrender. They accept nothing less than the total extermination of all non-human life, and have exterminated countless peaceful alien civilizations. Orks, Drukhari, Necrons and Tyranids by no means represent the totality of Xenos life in the 40k universe.

And yeah, unlawfully killing a tyrant to end their tyranny, even if it will cause social instability, is 100% in the CG spectrum, IMO. But *sadistically* doing so, where you deliberately draw out their pain and enjoy it? That's getting a LOT more into CN territory, if not CE.

 greatbigtree wrote:
A friend of mine used to like pointing out that you can’t have a light without a dark to put it in.

My steady retaliation was that without a light, you have no shades of darkness.

Sure, but if you make the demigod leader of the Imperium the good guy, you don't have a wavering candle casting atmospheric shadows, you have a blindingly bright high powered spotlight directed right at your eyes.

I have compared Guilliman to a torch before, shining apparent enlightenment and rationality in his immediate area temporarily, but the shadows close back in as soon as he leaves. I see the bureaucracy, the Inquisition, and the Ecclesiarchy opposing him, perhaps not directly but indirectly by slowing down his changes, omitting information, shadow proxy struggles etc... They might not even be doing so maliciously (so far nobody has accused him of being a heretic or abomination, AFAIK), but could perhaps rationalize it to themselves as "The Lord Commander is too important to want to know this" or "He has been in stasis for a long time and doesn't know how things are properly done now, which is how we'll keep doing things." After all, he occupies a place in the Imperial theology similar to an archangel, so resistance is likely to be more covert or from simple bureaucratic inertia. He is able to ram things through temporarily through force of will, reputation, administrative skill, and threat of military force, but after he goes off to troubleshoot and put out another fire, people go back to the old ways of doing things.

Guilliman is forced to make compromises such as tolerating the Ecclesiarchy and not making any overt attempts to undermine their religion. He also maybe starts to waver in his own disbelief of the Emperor as a god. The problem ultimately with Guilliman is he is still trying to save the Imperium as a whole, which means he is never able to stay put long enough to enact lasting reform to any area. If he settled for saving only a part of the Imperium he might be able to return things in that local area to a more rational situation, but then he probably would be accused of private empire building. However he is trying to save everything and in that he may be committing the fundamental error of trying to defend everything.

And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader. That he has to face insurmountable odds is just a lame attempt to try to that bland overpowered character seem somewhat relatable like some Superman comic where he has to constantly fight against absurd odds. It doesn't work. GUilliman's return is the worst thing that has happened to 40K, and has pretty much ruined the setting.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader. That he has to face insurmountable odds is just a lame attempt to try to that bland overpowered character seem somewhat relatable like some Superman comic where he has to constantly fight against absurd odds. It doesn't work. GUilliman's return is the worst thing that has happened to 40K, and has pretty much ruined the setting.

You're welcome to that opinion, I personally think it's done a good thing to provide us with a real struggle within the Imperium, beyond "the upper class is uncaring and the poor soldiers are the only good people" - now, we have both the upper and lower strata of Imperial society being repressed/inhibited by the system.

Guilliman returning and still being unable to make meaningful changes to the Imperium speaks far more about the grimdarkness than "the Imperium keeps losing oh noes", which just feels drawn out, repetitive, and lacking depth.

But that's how I see it.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader. That he has to face insurmountable odds is just a lame attempt to try to that bland overpowered character seem somewhat relatable like some Superman comic where he has to constantly fight against absurd odds. It doesn't work. GUilliman's return is the worst thing that has happened to 40K, and has pretty much ruined the setting.

Awwww! Don't bring poor battered Superman into this! Whole different context. That's supposed to be shiny, noble, aspirational, optimistic stuff! And when Superman is written well, it's not just mindlessly throwing bigger and bigger obstacles at him so he can punch them, it's to present him with problems that can't be solved by brute strength: intellectual problems, moral and ethical dilemmas, that kind of thing. There's a reason his best villains are characters like Luthor, Mxyzpytylk, Bizarro, General Lane, Darkseid, The Ultra Humanite, and Parasite. Also, almost all the best Superman stories are more about him saving people and solving problems rather than defeating villains.

Which COULD be a good argument in favour of Guilliman - "Exactly! He's faced with intellectual and moral problems like counterbalancing his vision against the practical realities of the modern Imperium, having to choose which worlds to save and which to let die, having to choose what kinds of corruption and oppression to let stand so that there's still a functional Imperium for him to lead, etc" … … except that 40k isn't a superhero story, definitely isn't a Superman story, and really really really shouldn't be.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader.

Keeping in mind that that good shiny superhero of a leader went on xenocidal rampages and campaigns of conquest on independent human worlds, just like every other Primarch. Billions - possibly trillions - of innocents, including humans, have died because of decisions this guy has made in the furtherance of establishing the Imperium of Mankind.

Robby G is merely supremely competent, rational and pragmatic and not actively cruel. That makes him a saint by 40k standards, but he's no Superman. A truly good person cannot hold together an empire and Robby G is committed to holding together an empire.

 John Prins wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader.

Keeping in mind that that good shiny superhero of a leader went on xenocidal rampages and campaigns of conquest on independent human worlds, just like every other Primarch. Billions - possibly trillions - of innocents, including humans, have died because of decisions this guy has made in the furtherance of establishing the Imperium of Mankind.

Robby G is merely supremely competent, rational and pragmatic and not actively cruel. That makes him a saint by 40k standards, but he's no Superman. A truly good person cannot hold together an empire and Robby G is committed to holding together an empire.

Definitely good points.

And arguably, a good person would never even want to hold together an empire in the first place!

nataliereed1984 wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader.

Keeping in mind that that good shiny superhero of a leader went on xenocidal rampages and campaigns of conquest on independent human worlds, just like every other Primarch. Billions - possibly trillions - of innocents, including humans, have died because of decisions this guy has made in the furtherance of establishing the Imperium of Mankind.

Robby G is merely supremely competent, rational and pragmatic and not actively cruel. That makes him a saint by 40k standards, but he's no Superman. A truly good person cannot hold together an empire and Robby G is committed to holding together an empire.

Definitely good points.

And arguably, a good person would never even want to hold together an empire in the first place!

I think you would have to, as anything close to a decent person. If you got handed the reins to the Imperium tomorrow, you would have to try and keep it together. The level of death and insane amounts of suffering caused by its downfall would not be something you could just accept out of hand. You could decide to try and dismantle it slowly, in order to both loose its worse aspects, fight chaos and give back freedoms at a smaller level of government, but that would be slow, slow going and an almost impossible task.

I'm not a huge fan of the Roboute resurrection to say the least, but if they absolutely had to start making their setting into a moving story, he might actually be the best Primarch to bring back, (yeesh, I know, but hear me out).

I find the odd man out part of his character quite interesting in the light of the Imperium of 40k. Here we have this pragmatical technocrat, this being of logic and planning and hope. One of few Primarchs that didn't really revel in warfare, but were clearly made for something else (too). Someone who might actually have been suited for the role as the Emperor's cabinet minister or something similar, had he been put to the task as planned in the 30k. Imperium. But he wasn't. And now this being of plans and logic is forced to take that very role, but in a very different universe. Now he is suddenly the leader not of an atheist military regime, ready to be slowly transformed into something more gentle, but of an orthodox theocracy; a huge, overly complicated beast of an empire drowning on its own breath under its own heavy hands. That setting is ripe for exiting juxtapositions, internal strife and ideological and psychological doubt and drama.

However... I'm not sure I trust GW anno 2020 to be able to write that setting well.

But how much my heart actually belongs to Vulkan, or how other Primarchs might be better suited to make some (pretty but impotent) grand stand against chaos, I don't really think the other Primarchs brings nearly the same chance for good storytelling as Roboute the technocrat does (now theres a sentence you don't hear every day). Russ might either accept the Imperium fully and serve it more than try to change it, or he would be so disgusted that he would end up fighting it. Vulkan would probably leave the Imperium to its day to day running and try to change things by example, promethean cult style. The Khan would hate what he saw, but he wouldn't have the patience to try and change things. Dorn would react much like Roboute but without a fighting chance against the giant bureaucracy he faced, the Lion would probably more fully embrace the power of the throne... who else?

Now, to speculate.

1. I don't think other returning Primarchs will have much grief with Guilliman. Remember how radically different the regime they will encounter is to the one they left. Lion'el might make some fuss just because he has to, but other than that I see much more potential conflict between the Primarchs and the Imperium than between the Primarchs themselves.
2. What will become of the Imperial cult? Can Roboute truly tolerate it? and if not, can he even begin to hope to oppose it?
3. Looming in the distance is the possible birth of a new god. Either the boring version, where the emperor is reborn a man and can take over from Gulli. Or, much more exiting, a future where the worship of Emps give birth to a new, wholly sentient and big warp entity... now, the Imperium and all the fanboys might think that they want this, but with what we now of Chaos gods, this is in fact probably the most devilishly frightening scenario of them all. A future where Emps' children have to wage war against a godlike being born in their gene-fathers images is quite fun... if they really have to go someplace new with the setting.

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

I've been subscribing to this idea since the late 90's. They also dropped the ball by not having Cypher turn out to be The Lion.

>Lion accuses Rowboat of trying to take control of all the Imperiums military might
>Rowboat pinkie promises this isn't true look I told Hawk Boi to do it
>Lion sleeps a Bit
>Lion wakes up
>Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might
Sorry, >Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might after being resurrected by space elves known for their plots and treachery and psychic manipulation literally in defiance of the rules ROWBOAT HIMSELF WROTE TO MAKE SURE THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN.
WhatIsThisHeresy.meme

But knowing the state of 40k lore writing post Gathering Storm the Lion will probably just tell Azrael to publish and unredacted history of the Dark Angels across the galaxy in Hardback and ePub format, go practice kissing with Mary Cawl and then go become a moisture farmer.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
>Lion accuses Rowboat of trying to take control of all the Imperiums military might
>Rowboat pinkie promises this isn't true look I told Hawk Boi to do it
>Lion sleeps a Bit
>Lion wakes up
>Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might
Sorry, >Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might after being resurrected by space elves known for their plots and treachery and psychic manipulation literally in defiance of the rules ROWBOAT HIMSELF WROTE TO MAKE SURE THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN.
WhatIsThisHeresy.meme

You forgot "8000 years pass, all other Primarchs go missing, warp storms break across half the Imperium after Cadia falls and some crazy Emperor worshiping religion has effectively taken over most of the Imperium. Also Tyranids and Necrons showed up to say hello/die humans."

Any one of those things justifies a certain amount of reconsideration on Roboute's part. Probably along the lines of "Crap, if I HAD taken over the Imperium's Military Might, we wouldn't be in this pickle right now."

 John Prins wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
>Lion accuses Rowboat of trying to take control of all the Imperiums military might
>Rowboat pinkie promises this isn't true look I told Hawk Boi to do it
>Lion sleeps a Bit
>Lion wakes up
>Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might
Sorry, >Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might after being resurrected by space elves known for their plots and treachery and psychic manipulation literally in defiance of the rules ROWBOAT HIMSELF WROTE TO MAKE SURE THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN.
WhatIsThisHeresy.meme

You forgot "8000 years pass, all other Primarchs go missing, warp storms break across half the Imperium after Cadia falls and some crazy Emperor worshiping religion has effectively taken over most of the Imperium. Also Tyranids and Necrons showed up to say hello/die humans."

Any one of those things justifies a certain amount of reconsideration on Roboute's part. Probably along the lines of "Crap, if I HAD taken over the Imperium's Military Might, we wouldn't be in this pickle right now."

Precisely :-) If they just jump into the same roles they had almost 10.000 years ago it is seriously shoddy writing

None of that changes the reason why Rowboat did what he did. It's hypocritical to say "No one man should have all that power, except totes for me lol I am trustworthy honest."

people always like to forget Gulliman was running the IoM when he died. if the Lion came back his only comment would be ".. what the hell got things screwed up so bad while I was away Robute?!"

Seriously for the Lion, Gulliman running the IoM was the STATUS QUO when he dissappered

 Just Tony wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

I've been subscribing to this idea since the late 90's. They also dropped the ball by not having Cypher turn out to be The Lion.

Yeah, I also always hoped Cypher was an astral projection of the Lion (a little like Luke's trick in SW: Ep8).

Changing your mind when new evidence shows you were wrong is not hypocrisy.

Although I could easily see a newly-awakened Lion interpreting Guilliman's actions the same way BCB has.

For all Lion would know, Roboute just created a second rate, run down imperium and ran it into the ground. He wouldn't even know Roboute spent most of that time in stasis at the point of death.

The first perceptions an awoken Lion would have would 'prove' all his worst fears about Roboute true.

Excellent long game by Tzeentch!

BrianDavion wrote:
people always like to forget Gulliman was running the IoM when he died.

Well, yes, he was always a hypocrite.

nareik wrote:
For all Lion would know, Roboute just created a second rate, run down imperium and ran it into the ground. He wouldn't even know Roboute spent most of that time in stasis at the point of death.

The first perceptions an awoken Lion would have would 'prove' all his worst fears about Roboute true.

Excellent long game by Tzeentch!

Well, yes... the exchange would go something like this.

Lion El'Johnson upon bursting into the HQ of Gulli, finding his ambitious brother in blue standing over a hologram of the galaxy.

"Hey Robbie, you prick, what the F happened? You messed it all up!"

"Lion El' my long lost brother! What a joy it is to see you! I was slain, eight thousand accursedly long years ago, I thought I should never return, nor see you again, but the sight of you brings me hope anew, that we can turn this wretched corpse of an empire around. Pray tell me, where have you been, my proud friend?".

"Oh... well... you know... Luther... left me... so.., you know... I just couldn't get out of bed... "

"oh... Well... I understand... ... ... The important thing is that we are here now, ready to save His work".

"Yeah! Where are those traitorous devils, point me at 'em and i'll show them what bladework truly is, I have been itching for a fight the last two millennium... you do have a plan right, right?"

"Sure, come join me now, let us talk, we have much to do and little time, but for now, let us rejoice the two of us still draw breath".

The camera slowly pans to outside the palace, while the sun sets - but just before the episode fades to black, we hear the voice of Lion, loud, going higher and higher into high pitch.

"YOU ARE TELLING ME WE HAD THOSE SUPER SUPER SOLDIERS HELD IN STASIS FOR HOOOW LONG?"

cue Piano tunes and jolly times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
people always like to forget Gulliman was running the IoM when he died.

Well, yes, he was always a hypocrite.

Most dictators are...

Sill, I wish we could all just bury the Primaris background fluff and forget it ever happened, secret legions and all. I almost feel bad for Pappa smurf that he's the one who has to shoulder that fever dream of a plotline. but alas. Here we are.

However, I think we will find out most of the Primarchs who splitt up their legions (and maybe the rest of them too) had some fail safe plans put in place in order to guard themselve and their father's regime from more revolts between them. Russ flat out refused to splitt his legion, Dorn had the last war protocol (? Might misremember the name), who knows how many maguffins Vulkan has planted all over the Imperium etc.

Leatherjacket9 wrote:
Guilliman is the current Savior of the Imperium. But is he also it's current and greatest threat?

Roboute created the Codex Astartes to protect the Imperium of Man from someone like Horus and also potentially,... Himself.

The Codex Astartes helps make it so that no one person would ever be able to amass, control, and manage a military force so large, that they could ever pose a threat to the imperium as a whole... As Horus once did.

With that in mind, in theory, is not Roboute Guilliman currently the biggest violator of the Codex Astartes. Guilliman currently carries not only all Imperial military might, but also the sword of the Emperor, displaying more power and authority than Horus ever had.

Roboute may be the biggest Horisian threat the Empire of Man will ever see.

Surely if Lion El Johnson were to return now. It would seem to him that Roboute became Emperor just like Johnson thought Roboute was secretly trying to do all along.

Yes.
For all intents, he's now the new SPASS Emprah. Or in the words of our spiritual guru "POWER raw UNLIMITED POWER!!!"

RG is a heretic and will burn.

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?
Who will burn him?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?
Who will burn him?

I too would like to know who you think is going to burn Robute "living saint of the Imperium" (and yes he's been declared a living saint) Gulliman for heresy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?

Was resurrected by a xeno necromancer. Did not immedetialy slay said necromancer
Consorted with a known technoheretic.
Blasphemously claimed that the Emperor had spoken to him.
Unlawfully sacked some High Lords.
Usurped the position of a High Lord, then exceeded the legal authority granted to said position.
Violated the holy Codex Astartes and countless other rules and traditions.

Who will burn him?

I don't know, but whoever it is will be the greatest hero of the Imperium has seen since Ollanius Pius saved the Emperor from Horus!

Was resurrected by a xeno necromancer. Did not immedetialy slay said necromancer

benifiting from xenos aide is.... pretty common among the IoMs upper echelons.

Consorted with a known technoheretic.

Cawl hasn't been deemed as such by the admech.

Blasphemously claimed that the Emperor had spoken to him.

thats not blasphemy, he was escorted into the throne room by the Adeptus Custodes for an audiance, are you claiming that the emperor would not speak to someone granted an audiance? speaking of Blasphemy..

Unlawfully sacked some High Lords.

entirely lawful for him to do so, he simply took up his position on the high lords, a position he'd held since the heresy.

Usurped the position of a High Lord, then exceeded the legal authority granted to said position.

no usurping about it. Gulliman was acting within the authority he was granted by the emperor in continuation with authority he'd held since the emperor's ascension.

Violated the holy Codex Astartes and countless other rules and traditions.

where did he violate it? remember he's it's author, he's allowed thus to make revisions.

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?

Was resurrected by a xeno necromancer. Did not immedetialy slay said necromancer

Was similarly aided by a high ranking member of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the entire thing was given explicit approval by a living vessel of the Emperor (Celestine) and high ranking members of one of the most famous First Founding Chapters.

Consorted with a known technoheretic.

Cawl has not been declared a technoheretic. He is very much working under Imperial remit and authority. While he may not be supported as a leader, he is not under serious accusations of heresy.

Blasphemously claimed that the Emperor had spoken to him.

A claim supported by the Custodes, the only body to legally verify and endorse such a claim. Similarly, we know that the Emperor very much *did* speak with him, from an OOC perspective.

Unlawfully sacked some High Lords.

Had the mandate from both the Emperor, the Custodes, a living vessel of the Emperor, and his own authority as Lord Commander of the Imperium, reclaimed from before he was put in stasis, giving him legal authority to do just that.
His only limit is practical authority, much like an Inquisitor. However, due to him being a Primarch, a Living Saint, and supported by dozens of highly influential and powerful institutions unless he tried to completely disband the Ecclesiarchy or the entire HLOT, he shouldn't exactly be limited.

Usurped the position of a High Lord, then exceeded the legal authority granted to said position.

Was granted position of Lord Commander long before he went under stasis, and is merely reclaiming his lost position.

Violated the holy Codex Astartes and countless other rules and traditions.

The book he wrote himself, and providing replacement doctrines? Not to mention my point as above, his practical status allowing him greater authority than any other leader save for the Emperor.

Who will burn him?

I don't know, but whoever it is will be the greatest hero of the Imperium has seen since Ollanius Pius saved the Emperor from Horus!

Or alternatively, will be a short-sighted fool for killing off the best hope of survival humanity has had since the Emperor fell.
The Imperium only *resists* because of Guilliman's efforts. Without the Indomitus Crusade, without Guilliman having to take the reins and whip the Imperium into a better shape, it would have long splintered and broken apart. Humanity might still exist, scattered and isolated in their own little pocket empires, but the only form of galactically united humanity that would exist would be Gue'vesa, or those pledged to Chaos.

Killing Guilliman would be obscenely impractical and suicidal, even for the Imperium's standards - but similarly, Guilliman removing the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition would be near impossible. They must co-exist.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?
Who will burn him?

All traitors/heretics burn. It's just how it is.

There are people who get the grimdark black humour of the setting and there are people who do not.

The shining hero chosen by the Emperor returning to save the Imperium at the time of great need getting burned as a heretic by the superstitious authorities jealous of their power is an absolutely splendid narrative.

"But ackchyually that would not happen, because Guilliman is so awesome, and everyone loves him..."

Yeah, whatever mate.

Unfortunately these days the writers belong to the latter category, They no longer understand their own setting, and have succumbed to the fannish Space Marine hero-worship which sees marines as shining noble heroes and the Imperium needs to be led by Guilliman, the biggest and shiniest and noblest superduper Space Marine ever. Setting bloody ruined, man.

 Crimson wrote:
There are people who get the grimdark black humour of the setting and there are people who do not.

"hah lol ur dumb" - if anyone's seen the whole Rick and Morty copypasta about how only people with a "high IQ" understand the show, this wouldn't be a million miles from it.

Look mate, I get the setting: no need to flex the whole "don't get the setting" nonsense. But the whole "lol everything sucks you can't have successes" got old. If you think the setting is suddenly not grimdark, you really haven't been paying attention to any of the current lore.
Guilliman hasn't stopped the Imperium's xenophobia. He hasn't changed the general quality of life substantially. His only real accomplishment is maintaining the status quo, against his own will, in spite of catastrophic damage to his father's empire in the form of the Great Rift.

Guilliman is no different to the heroes like Sebastian Thor, Macharius, Horus, and Thane, people who have managed to keep the Imperium afloat, through supreme effort - and many of them were great people, people who were actually well-intentioned, noble and brave. But, and this is the key thing about 40k, it doesn't matter. The Imperium's still a mess, it's still morally despicable, and it's still embattled on all sides. Guilliman hasn't changed any of that.

You're complaining about a new shiny coat of paint, and ignoring the rotten core beneath.

The shining hero chosen by the Emperor returning to save the Imperium at the time of great need getting burned as a heretic by the superstitious authorities jealous of their power is an absolutely splendid narrative.

Sounds incredibly boring and overplayed to me.

We've already got "haha lol we killed our best hope of survival because we're SO GRIMDARKK". It's overplayed. It's like Game of Thrones, killing characters off (or faking it) for cheap shock value instead of for a decent narratives.
Guilliman coming back and being critical of the setting IN UNIVERSE gives us a great opportunity to contrast what the Imperium could/should be to what it is. And having the most powerful man in the Imperium be unable to do anything meaningful about it is delicious.

I believe that there's a rather nice Superman comic where he actually attempts to do lasting good for Earth by attempting to solve world hunger, water crises, etc etc - and he fails, because he can't change world governments and the corrupt and flawed systems therein. This is the situation Guilliman finds himself in - and it's far FAR more satisfying than some trite "he gets burnt alive bc muh heresy".

"But ackchyually that would not happen, because Guilliman is so awesome, and everyone loves him..."

Yeah, whatever mate.

That's the lore, mate.
Sorry to break it to you, but everyone saying "Guilliman would be burnt as a heretic" has a very selective understanding of the Imperium.

Guilliman is a Primarch, probably one of the most recognisable of the 9 Loyalists (probably second after Sanguinius), and also a VERY competent statesman and politician, with probably the most lasting impact on the Imperium, as well as having held prior authority over it beforehand. Of ANY Primarch to come back and be able to marshal the Imperium into something barely capable of withstanding the Great Rift, it's the boy in blue.

Unfortunately these days the writers belong to the latter category, They no longer understand their own setting and have succumbed to the fannish Space Marine hero-worship which sees marines as shining noble heroes and the Imperium needs to be led by Guilliman, the biggest and shiniest and noblest superduper Space Marine ever. Setting bloody ruined, man.

Your idea of 40k, perhaps. Mine? Still alive and well.

I'm sorry you don't enjoy it. I really am. But making blanket statments like "they've ruined the setting" ain't a fact, and it's not hard to find the same grimdark core in the current lore, if anyone cared to look beyond the memes trotted out.

indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

BrianDavion wrote:
indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

I guess Dostoyevsky was into grim derp then.

BrianDavion wrote:
indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

Exactly.
There's a difference between "the Imperium sucks because there's nothing good", and "the Imperium sucks because the good doesn't change it".

True grimdarkness is good failing to do anything to change the inherent problems of the world.

While I think Guilliman is 100% a huge heretic (he doesn't even believe in the almighty God-Emperor) I think having him killed would be silly. There probably are some in universe people who'd want to kill him seeing as some of the Imperium hates Navigators but a better grimdark setting is that Guilliman can't make things better because things have gone past that.

Personally if I wanted to have Guilliman do something dramatic it would be ditching the Imperium and trying to preserve humanity in a different form.

pm713 wrote:
While I think Guilliman is 100% a huge heretic (he doesn't even believe in the almighty God-Emperor) I think having him killed would be silly. There probably are some in universe people who'd want to kill him seeing as some of the Imperium hates Navigators but a better grimdark setting is that Guilliman can't make things better because things have gone past that.

Personally if I wanted to have Guilliman do something dramatic it would be ditching the Imperium and trying to preserve humanity in a different form.

There indeed are indeed options between burning him as a heretic and crowning him as a de facto leader of the Imperium.

I think there would have been interesting possibilities for narrative tension if he had been given a lesser position, Lord Commander Ultima (the top military leader of Segmentum Ultima), Warmaster etc. The High Lords would try to keep him somewhat satisfied and most importantly busy with all sort of wars, because they would fear that he would do the exact thing he did in the canon lore. Guilliman would resent them and would try improve things, but couldn't move directly against the High Lords as that would risk a civil war.

thing is that Gulliman is a solution to a OOC problem for GW, namely "ok the setting is over 30 years old, there are some things we'd like to change to work better with the world as it goes but we can't actually rationalize it without changing something in universe."

Gulliman allows them to do that, and I'm not talking primaris marines eaither. Gulliman allows you to deploy 3 ultramarine devestator squads on a table, all with gold trim without explictly breaking canon.

BrianDavion wrote:
thing is that Gulliman is a solution to a OOC problem for GW, namely "ok the setting is over 30 years old, there are some things we'd like to change to work better with the world as it goes but we can't actually rationalize it without changing something in universe."

Gulliman allows them to do that, and I'm not talking primaris marines eaither. Gulliman allows you to deploy 3 ultramarine devestator squads on a table, all with gold trim without explictly breaking canon.

Yeah, I really would have preferred them to just retcon that sort of stuff in, and even the primaris marines too. It would have been far less disruptive.

Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

 Aestas wrote:
Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

I mean, he's been in stasis how long and then got out. How are you going to call that an impostor, especially when people were claiming his wounds were healing in stasis too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:
Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

I mean, he's been in stasis how long and then got out. How are you going to call that an impostor, especially when people were claiming his wounds were healing in stasis too.

It could easily be a lie that he came out of stasis rather than some lab especially if you don't live in Ultramar and you had people saying his wounds weren't healing like Marneus Calgar, who would know better than anyone. Not believing he's the real Guilliman is very plausible and to be honest more believable.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

I guess Dostoyevsky was into grim derp then.

Boy if you think everything should be grimdark for the sake of being grimdark, you're gonna hate the Ciaphas Cain series!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:
Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

I mean, he's been in stasis how long and then got out. How are you going to call that an impostor, especially when people were claiming his wounds were healing in stasis too.

Did you forget the Xenos Necromancer? The vile aliens have desecrated the tomb of a beloved mythic hero, and with their foul sorcery made his corpse into their zombie puppet! This is the ultimate blasphemy! Death to the xenos, death to the heretics who consort with the xenos!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

I guess Dostoyevsky was into grim derp then.

Boy if you think everything should be grimdark for the sake of being grimdark, you're gonna hate the Ciaphas Cain series!

Possibly. But if you imply that I think 40K shouldn't contain humour, then you don't understand grimdark (and possibly don't understand humour either.) Grimdark is black humour, it is satire.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:
Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

I mean, he's been in stasis how long and then got out. How are you going to call that an impostor, especially when people were claiming his wounds were healing in stasis too.

Try to think about how easy and regularly even readily verifiable information gets bent out of shape on our little planet, and then apply that to the size of the galaxy (the whole, g** d*** galaxy).
On top of that add in the implausibility of the claim that a son of the Emperor returned after ten thousand years of absence plus the implication the truth of this statement has on theology and internal power-structures within the Imperium. I find it borderline bad writing that half the Ministerium and half the Ecclesiarchy didn't rebel at once. (Exaggerated to make a point).

pm713 wrote:It could easily be a lie that he came out of stasis rather than some lab especially if you don't live in Ultramar and you had people saying his wounds weren't healing like Marneus Calgar, who would know better than anyone. Not believing he's the real Guilliman is very plausible and to be honest more believable.

Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

Crimson wrote:Did you forget the Xenos Necromancer? The vile aliens have desecrated the tomb of a beloved mythic hero, and with their foul sorcery made his corpse into their zombie puppet! This is the ultimate blasphemy! Death to the xenos, death to the heretics who consort with the xenos!

If they knew about Yraine's involvement, then they'd also know that Celestine explicitly gave her blessing. Who wants to call a Living Saint, a proven miracle worker, a heretic?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Don't forget - we know about Yraine's involvement. Hive gangers on Random Planet 513 don't. IIRC, we don't even know if other High Lords know, but even if so, for them to exclaim heresy for use of xenotech would be massively hypocritical for many - I'm sure several have "exotic" personal collections of their own.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:It could easily be a lie that he came out of stasis rather than some lab especially if you don't live in Ultramar and you had people saying his wounds weren't healing like Marneus Calgar, who would know better than anyone. Not believing he's the real Guilliman is very plausible and to be honest more believable.

Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

Crimson wrote:Did you forget the Xenos Necromancer? The vile aliens have desecrated the tomb of a beloved mythic hero, and with their foul sorcery made his corpse into their zombie puppet! This is the ultimate blasphemy! Death to the xenos, death to the heretics who consort with the xenos!

If they knew about Yraine's involvement, then they'd also know that Celestine explicitly gave her blessing. Who wants to call a Living Saint, a proven miracle worker, a heretic?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Don't forget - we know about Yraine's involvement. Hive gangers on Random Planet 513 don't. IIRC, we don't even know if other High Lords know, but even if so, for them to exclaim heresy for use of xenotech would be massively hypocritical for many - I'm sure several have "exotic" personal collections of their own.

indeed the eldar purposefully did not make the trek to Terra. the only people who know about Yrvine's involvement in his ressurection are The Ultramarines, the grey knights, Greyfax, and Celestine. and they all, for their reasons, aren't talking.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Yes, more of 'But everyone loves Guilliman!" Yes, that is the fluff. And it is terrible writing. Living saints are now condoning xenos necromancy FFS! I really don't understand how people can defend this sort of utter bs.

 Crimson wrote:
There are people who get the grimdark black humour of the setting and there are people who do not.

Unfortunately the setting has been completely flanderized, and to some, grimdark now means it's raining poop from the sky 24/7 and on bad days it's the chunky kind. 40k as a setting is just mindless memesters yelling "BURN THE HERETIEEKS" at...anything really, anything that is remotely more complex than "and then the commissar shot everyone because grimderp"

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Yes, more of 'But everyone loves Guilliman!" Yes, that is the fluff. And it is terrible writing. Living saints are now condoning xenos necromancy FFS! I really don't understand how people can defend this sort of utter bs.

Terrible writing aside... This is a setting where having a somewhat strong claim to being a physical descendant of the Emperor (Sensei) wouldn't be enough to save you from a pyre... Somebody, a lot of somebodies, should be bringing out the pitchfork and heading for Terra right about now.

Crimson wrote:Living saints are now condoning xenos necromancy FFS!

When xenos necromancy returns a great hero of the Imperium at a time of desperate need, I think it's completely in character for a Living Saint to do just that.

After all, the Emperor is nearly explicitly stated as using raw Chaos power to create the Primarchs. Having a vestige of the Emperor's power condone such an action makes perfect sense.

Aestas wrote:This is a setting where having a somewhat strong claim to being a physical descendant of the Emperor (Sensei) wouldn't be enough to save you from a pyre

It's also a setting where the Emperor is venerated as a god, may very well *be* a god because of said worship, and almost anything directly linked to him is blindly venerated. This is a setting where the shells of bolter rounds are treated as sacred relics, where the very ground Space Marines walk upon is worshipped by the Imperial citizenry, where the Primarchs themselves are idolised in myth and legend across the Imperium, where the word of the Emperor's most trusted and sacred guardians is law.

The Imperium is a massively suspicious and sometimes actively detrimental to itself, but it is also incredibly hidebound in it's religious doctrine and veneration of the Emperor. Simply focusing on "the Imperium would never trust anyone" and ignoring "the Imperium is immensely devoted to the Emperor and his sons" is missing a great deal of why the Imperium is such a complex entity, and why Guilliman actually is in a pretty ironic situation: he is probably only so loved and accepted, so above suspicion by the masses BECAUSE of the church he seeks to abolish.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
When xenos necromancy returns a great hero of the Imperium at a time of desperate need, I think it's completely in character for a Living Saint to do just that.

No it it is not! That is just insane. They hate xenos and chaos! To even suggest that the faithful would ever trust alien necromancy is blatantly absurd.

After all, the Emperor is nearly explicitly stated as using raw Chaos power to create the Primarchs. Having a vestige of the Emperor's power condone such an action makes perfect sense.

Oh sure. So living saints are now cool with chaos too. I'm sure the plague zombie Creed will be the next High Lord.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
When xenos necromancy returns a great hero of the Imperium at a time of desperate need, I think it's completely in character for a Living Saint to do just that.

No it it is not! That is just insane. They hate xenos and chaos! To even suggest that the faithful would ever trust alien necromancy is blatantly absurd.

Celestine disagrees.

After all, the Emperor is nearly explicitly stated as using raw Chaos power to create the Primarchs. Having a vestige of the Emperor's power condone such an action makes perfect sense.

Oh sure. So living saints are now cool with chaos too.

I'd suggest reading up on it. The wider Imperium might not be aware, but the Emperor strongly demonstrated his willingness to use "heretical" sciences - I think a Living Saint might very well be aware of this fact, what with being a conduit of his power.

I'm sure the plague zombie Creed will be the next High Lord.

There's a very big difference between the two.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Aestas wrote:This is a setting where having a somewhat strong claim to being a physical descendant of the Emperor (Sensei) wouldn't be enough to save you from a pyre

It's also a setting where the Emperor is venerated as a god, may very well *be* a god because of said worship, and almost anything directly linked to him is blindly venerated. This is a setting where the shells of bolter rounds are treated as sacred relics, where the very ground Space Marines walk upon is worshipped by the Imperial citizenry, where the Primarchs themselves are idolised in myth and legend across the Imperium, where the word of the Emperor's most trusted and sacred guardians is law.

The Imperium is a massively suspicious and sometimes actively detrimental to itself, but it is also incredibly hidebound in it's religious doctrine and veneration of the Emperor. Simply focusing on "the Imperium would never trust anyone" and ignoring "the Imperium is immensely devoted to the Emperor and his sons" is missing a great deal of why the Imperium is such a complex entity, and why Guilliman actually is in a pretty ironic situation: he is probably only so loved and accepted, so above suspicion by the masses BECAUSE of the church he seeks to abolish.

I get where you are coming from, and you are spot on on the last part when it comes to his followers, but I find that you miss how most religious institutions and/or ingrained systems of faith realistically functions :-) The return of a pivotal character such a Robbie just (in my eyes) couldn't go over without conflict. And we know religious schisms isn't above the Imperial Cult.

 Aestas wrote:
I get where you are coming from, and you are spot on on the last part, but I find that you miss how most religious institutions and/or ingrained systems of faith realistically functions :-)

In our world, where there isn't one single religion, and plenty of atheists, agnostics, and freedom of information/opinion is largely permitted, such differences work. In the Imperium, where there is far less in the way of difference in faith (despite minor cultural differences and interpretations in various worlds), I don't think that a Primarch returning with the blessing of a Living Saint and the uppermost Imperial authority supporting his claim being accepted by almost the entire civilian populace is unreasonable.

It's not that religious schism is impossible, but that with the current circumstances, I don't think it would happen on a large scale here.

Crimson, are you trolling at this point? 90% of your posts can be read as “tongue in cheek”, which is how I’ve been reading them. If I’m wrong, and you’re serious...it’s a game setting, dude. It’s not real world politics. Now all hail Robo-Guil! Supreme overlord of your tabletop soul!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Celestine disagrees.

Yes, because GWs terrible writing has ruined the setting.

I'd suggest reading up on it. The wider Imperium might not be aware, but the Emperor strongly demonstrated his willingness to use "heretical" sciences - I think a Living Saint might very well be aware of this fact, what with being a conduit of his power.

If Living Saints would actually know what Emperor has done and what he truly is the whole fething Ecclesiarchy would have collapsed ages ago. You seriously think it is good idea to write it so that the Living Saints, the icons of Imperial Creed and foremost of the fanatical Sisters of Battle are OK with xenos necromancy and chaos? You really think this is good writing? Unfething believable.

There's a very big difference between the two.

There is not. An imperial hero resurrected by a hated foe via blasphemous magic. And if GW wrote it you would be here defending how it makes perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crimson, are you trolling at this point? 90% of your posts can be read as “tongue in cheek”, which is how I’ve been reading them. If I’m wrong, and you’re serious...it’s a game setting, dude. It’s not real world politics. Now all hail Robo-Guil! Supreme overlord of your tabletop soul!

I am as serious as the topic warrants.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:It could easily be a lie that he came out of stasis rather than some lab especially if you don't live in Ultramar and you had people saying his wounds weren't healing like Marneus Calgar, who would know better than anyone. Not believing he's the real Guilliman is very plausible and to be honest more believable.

Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

Crimson wrote:Did you forget the Xenos Necromancer? The vile aliens have desecrated the tomb of a beloved mythic hero, and with their foul sorcery made his corpse into their zombie puppet! This is the ultimate blasphemy! Death to the xenos, death to the heretics who consort with the xenos!

If they knew about Yraine's involvement, then they'd also know that Celestine explicitly gave her blessing. Who wants to call a Living Saint, a proven miracle worker, a heretic?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Don't forget - we know about Yraine's involvement. Hive gangers on Random Planet 513 don't. IIRC, we don't even know if other High Lords know, but even if so, for them to exclaim heresy for use of xenotech would be massively hypocritical for many - I'm sure several have "exotic" personal collections of their own.

You know what another word for people who were there is? Collaborators. I'm not saying that people who say that Guilliman is a puppet are rational but they can easily deny it. People in the real world think the Earth is flat despite the evidence to the contrary, is it so hard to believe that a bunch of people in a dystopian universe could just deny all evidence and claim that whats basically one of gods children is a fake?

They could, but they are all raised in faith that focuses on mysticism, miracles and the idea that emps has direct influence on the world. They are, very much so, not taught critical thinking. Accepting that the Son of Emperor, the Savior Of Imperium, has risen from his slumber at the time of greatest need is much easier than going against your creed and doubting.

I agree with where you are coming from here but it sounds like the same complaint I have with the idea that the Imperium hates Psykers soooooo much, yet they openly worship one of the most powerful ever. And they know he was too. Its not like they didn't realize it, they just ignore it.

 Haasbioroid wrote:


I agree with where you are coming from here but it sounds like the same complaint I have with the idea that the Imperium hates Psykers soooooo much, yet they openly worship one of the most powerful ever. And they know he was too. Its not like they didn't realize it, they just ignore it.

And Jesus was a Jew, didn't stop the church from occasionally enchouraging anti-semitism in the past.


as for Gulliman, look, when a powerful ruler is opposed (and Gulliman is clearly powerful) it's a bit differant from what epople expect, the oppisition keeps to the shadows, slowly working to build their case, assmble allies etc. and I garentee you thats whats going on with Gulliman's rivals. they exist but rearing up and screaming "pure the heretic" isn't going to do anything but get them killed. Is Gulliman opposed? Yes, but I suspect the oppisition takes the form of a shadow war. with assasins and spies attempting to gain various things for factions etc. and frankly this makes for a more intreasting story (granted it's the type of thing you'd need a BL novel for as the 40k codices and campaign settings never do a good job at depicting these things and rarely even try) then "cardinal tim declares gulliman a heretic and launches a civil war!"

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Celestine disagrees.

Yes, because GWs terrible writing has ruined the setting.

I'd suggest reading up on it. The wider Imperium might not be aware, but the Emperor strongly demonstrated his willingness to use "heretical" sciences - I think a Living Saint might very well be aware of this fact, what with being a conduit of his power.

If Living Saints would actually know what Emperor has done and what he truly is the whole fething Ecclesiarchy would have collapsed ages ago. You seriously think it is good idea to write it so that the Living Saints, the icons of Imperial Creed and foremost of the fanatical Sisters of Battle are OK with xenos necromancy and chaos? You really think this is good writing? Unfucking believable.

There's a very big difference between the two.

There is not. An imperial hero resurrected by a hated foe via blasphemous magic. And if GW wrote it you would be here defending how it makes perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crimson, are you trolling at this point? 90% of your posts can be read as “tongue in cheek”, which is how I’ve been reading them. If I’m wrong, and you’re serious...it’s a game setting, dude. It’s not real world politics. Now all hail Robo-Guil! Supreme overlord of your tabletop soul!

I am as serious as the topic warrants.

Ah, ok, yes then. Continue having your fun. Carry on people, he isn’t serious. But go nuts with torches and pitchforks!!

I am serious about the points I'm making. The seriousness of the exact form the argument takes might be another matter.

Instead of arguing over what had happened in lore, you should all be saying that nothing of this could had happened in a first place.

Just wait till I will get to w40k universe. I will be slapping greater demons and pulling entire legions of even superior super space marines!