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Guilliman is the current Savior of the Imperium. But is he also it's current and greatest threat?

Roboute created the Codex Astartes to protect the Imperium of Man from someone like Horus and also potentially,... Himself.

The Codex Astartes helps make it so that no one person would ever be able to amass, control, and manage a military force so large, that they could ever pose a threat to the imperium as a whole... As Horus once did.

With that in mind, in theory, is not Roboute Guilliman currently the biggest violator of the Codex Astartes. Guilliman currently carries not only all Imperial military might, but also the sword of the Emperor, displaying more power and authority than Horus ever had.

Roboute may be the biggest Horisian threat the Empire of Man will ever see.

Surely if Lion El Johnson were to return now. It would seem to him that Roboute became Emperor just like Johnson thought Roboute was secretly trying to do all along.

Quietly I hope that the Lion will take a bit more of a modest stance and either agree to take the mantle of warmaster (ironically), or at least acknowledge that Bobby G isn't the fraud he thought he was.

In reality he'll probably have huge beef with it and decide that it should be him in that situation and decry him as you say.

Dudeface wrote:
Quietly I hope that the Lion will take a bit more of a modest stance and either agree to take the mantle of warmaster (ironically), or at least acknowledge that Bobby G isn't the fraud he thought he was.

In reality he'll probably have huge beef with it and decide that it should be him in that situation and decry him as you say.

Given that the only person in the Empire that is in a position to wake the Lion up is Roboute Gulliman (as only the Emperor knows he's fully healed in stasis), the Lion doesn't get an opinion, and if Robby G does finally kick his can out of his sleep pod, he can complain to the Corpse Throne first and foremost.

Yea it is kinda a shame that we haven't seen more backlash against Roboute seizing power over the Imperium.

I would point out that we don't need another bloomin' Primarch to come back from the grave to do that kind of story, we could just give some agency to human characters again

We already see that there is backlash in the novels, and there's a whole civil war between the people Guilliman has making a unified calendar and the Ordo Chronos, or whomever is responsible for trying to keep the however many calendars straight.

We know out of story that the Emperor gave Guilliman direct control over the Imperium to lead it back on the right path.

The Codex Astartes is for Space Marine chapters, and Guilliman isn't a Space Marine. The Imperium has had Lord Commanders/War Masters in the last ten thousand years that's commanded Space Marine chapters, even after the Heresy.

A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Everything’s a long game when you get fridged for 10000 years.

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

No arguments here!

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

Way less dull than noblebright demigod superhero kings.

There can be good people in 40K, but they should not be the ones in position of power. It goes against the grimdark.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

Again, no arguments here!

I actually usually strongly prefer playing "good guys" in games, especially in RPGs (tabletop or video game). 40k is a bit of an outlier (partly because there aren't any genuinely 'good' factions), but the shear over-the-top cartoonish moustache-twirling depravity of factions like Drukhari, Emperor's Children or Word Bearers makes them a lot more fun and a lot less uncomfortable to me than something closer to home and real-world-sorta-evil, like… say… Caesar's Legion in New Vegas.

"Everyone is morally compromised, as is the nature of warfare" = Good!
"Nobody's intentions are sincere, nobody's motives are what they appear to be" = Annoying and tedious.

But Guilliman, as a particular loyalist character, just strikes me as really, really boring and one-dimensional. It might just be that I don't "get" him, but… I find him way more dull than other "good guy" Primarchs like Sanguinius, Vulkan, or The Khan.

nataliereed1984 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

Again, no arguments here!

I actually usually strongly prefer playing "good guys" in games, especially in RPGs (tabletop or video game). 40k is a bit of an outlier (partly because there aren't any genuinely 'good' factions), but the shear over-the-top cartoonish moustache-twirling depravity of factions like Drukhari, Emperor's Children or Word Bearers makes them a lot more fun and a lot less uncomfortable to me than something closer to home and real-world-sorta-evil, like… say… Caesar's Legion in New Vegas.

"Everyone is morally compromised, as is the nature of warfare" = Good!
"Nobody's intentions are sincere, nobody's motives are what they appear to be" = Annoying and tedious.

But Guilliman, as a particular loyalist character, just strikes me as really, really boring and one-dimensional. It might just be that I don't "get" him, but… I find him way more dull than other "good guy" Primarchs like Sanguinius, Vulkan, or The Khan.

The amount that I agree with pretty much every post I've seen you post is getting astounding.

I jumped on board of 40k because of orks, but I've been looking for another faction to double up on. But after learning the lore, I concluded that every part of the Imperium is terrible and most of the other xenos are boring. At least the traitors have tragic back stories that make them endearing.

Ultimately I feel that in grimdark it works better if the good guys are underdogs. A heroic Imperial Guard captain who really cares about his soldiers and tries his best to protect the civilians, but gets constantly fethed over by his callous superiors is cool. A heroic demigod that gets handed reins of the Imperium not so much.

 Crimson wrote:
Ultimately I feel that in grimdark it works better if the good guys are underdogs. A heroic Imperial Guard captain who really cares about his soldiers and tries his best to protect the civilians, but gets constantly fethed over by his callous superiors is cool. A heroic demigod that gets handed reins of the Imperium not so much.

Yeah, that's a good point.

I said elsewhere recently that absolutely under no circumstances would I want the story to shift to a point where the Imperium have a genuine hope of "winning the war", and that it would, IMO, utterly undermine everything 40k stands for and that makes it interesting and unique.

Haasbioroid:

Thanks!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

It would certainly make him much more interesting character.

Honestly I disagree, "lol everyone's an evil traitor" gets dull fast.

Agreed. The idea that "you can't have nice things in 40k" has never been true for me, and "no-one can be be 'good' except these random guardsmen" doesn't work for me.

Despair and grimdark don't need to be caused by everyone being a double-crossing, self-obsessed, a-hole, but from the circumstances of the world ensuring that the actions of good people cannot have lasting effects. Essentially, that lasting victory and the destruction of oppressive mechanics of the 40k galaxy are forever out of reach - which is exactly what we're seeing with nearly every faction. Guilliman has not, and cannot, truly unite the Imperium and fulfil his father's dreams, because the Imperium is held together by the Ecclesiarchy, which Guilliman despises.
Abaddon has not reached Terra, and cannot truly trust the gods supporting him, or the armies at his back, who fall into infighting and their own conquests.

It seems like we're all roughly on the same page here, really:

- A big noblebright Ancient Chosen One warrior-hero with a magic sword swooping in to save the day by killing the baddies, like out of any generic sci-fi / fantasy thing, would be absolutely awful and utterly contradictory to everything unique and interesting about 40k.

- A setting wherein absolutely nobody ever has sincere, good intentions would be tedious and stupid and pretentious and have nothing interesting to say. The grim darkness and intractable futility of 40k should come from systemic issues, the fundamentally flawed or self-defeating nature of certain kinds of societies and ideologies, and the way certain methods and approaches undermine their own goals, no matter how sincere and well-intentioned.

you can do grimdark even with a char like Gulliman, the trick is to ensure that noble intentions get perverted. the fate of Iax is an EXCELLENT example. Gulliman decides to set up a hostpial to treat wounded and sick soldiers, as opposed to just killing them. the result? Nurgle takes over Iax. this is grimdark because you quickly see that "no good deed goes unpunished" it's not a few hard hearted people at the top. beucrats muddling everything up. the UNIVERSE punishes good actions

I like Roboute and Abaddon. They're both genuine. They're both the best men for the job. They're both heldback by juggling the demands of various stakeholders while trying not to sacrifice their own vision for the Imperium.

Their tragedy is while they are superhuman bad asses with super swords, their swords will never be sharp enough to cut through the politics, bureaucracy and infighting of their allies.

Roboute Guilliman had openly stated during the Horus Heresy that he would never be the leader of Imperium Secundus, as it would look like a power-grab/consolidation of power within the Ultramar system and instigate another civil war. Instead, he wanted another to take the mantle (i.e. Sanguinius). Just like in any viable society, there must always be a set structure or hierarchy, and the Imperium has to have things flowing 'smoothly' since the High Lords of Terra have made the environment stagnant. A person with a mindset of strategic brilliance like Guilliman's is welcomed with open arms to most. Yes, Lion El'Jonson and others may raise their hand and object to such leadership, but at the end of the day, it's down to survival of man and there is no place for ego and pride. I don't see any of the other Primarchs getting up to do the job. They're in a state of self-imposed exile, trapped, or dead. Guilliman has broken up parts of the Imperium's power to certain trustworthy individuals, like Dante being the Warden of the Imperium Nihilus. He is trying to provide balance while walking a very fine line.

I kind of feel like a character like guilliman is important as his views help show how grim dark the reality is.

Plus from the books i get the impression he isn't particulay loyal to the emperor any more. he isn't doing things for the emperor he is instead doing it beacuse a) he wants to save humanity and b) its the right thing to do

which in an of its self means that the top man of the emperors realm is technically a traitor

 Crazyterran wrote:
We already see that there is backlash in the novels, and there's a whole civil war between the people Guilliman has making a unified calendar and the Ordo Chronos, or whomever is responsible for trying to keep the however many calendars straight.

Yea it has got a few mentions so far which have been cool, but I want to see more of it. To get to be a High Lord must take a truly breathtaking amount of ambition, skulduggery and hypocrisy. Whilst them towing the line to Guilliman initially is fine, it would be cool if as time wears they start digging the boot in on their new rival!

 Kroem wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
We already see that there is backlash in the novels, and there's a whole civil war between the people Guilliman has making a unified calendar and the Ordo Chronos, or whomever is responsible for trying to keep the however many calendars straight.

Yea it has got a few mentions so far which have been cool, but I want to see more of it. To get to be a High Lord must take a truly breathtaking amount of ambition, skulduggery and hypocrisy. Whilst them towing the line to Guilliman initially is fine, it would be cool if as time wears they start digging the boot in on their new rival!

direct action against Gulliman by the highlords is proably impossiable. Gulliman has already shown he's MORE then willing to take action agaisnt trouble makers, it's worth noting that before the indomatus crusade launched her PURGED Terra of heritics and trouble makers, the consol pre-emertis of the navigators guild was outright flogged when he tried to hold up the crusade until the navigator houses where granted "rich rewards" (ref: july 2019 white dwarf) so yeah even before Gulliman set out he ensured that the worst of the trouble was dealt with, he also created a new logistical orginization for the crusade with fairly impressive powers to ram stuff through.

Leatherjacket9 wrote:
Guilliman is the current Savior of the Imperium. But is he also it's current and greatest threat?

Roboute created the Codex Astartes to protect the Imperium of Man from someone like Horus and also potentially,... Himself...

With that in mind, in theory, is not Roboute Guilliman currently the biggest violator of the Codex Astartes...

Edition Wars: now in the background as well as the meta-conversation!

The space elves had a hand in the resurrection of Roboute. A race with a 10,000 year old genocidal grudge against humanity. Their SOP is lies, Illusions, and mind control. So no, no trust their.

Although it would be very GRIMDARK for Roboute to be the most loyal, for everyone to doubt him and conspire against him, then kill him. Afterwards finding out HE had been the most loyal all along.......BWAHAHAHA...sob sob....BWAHAHAHA....sniff snif....

 Red Marine wrote:

Although it would be very GRIMDARK for Roboute to be the most loyal, for everyone to doubt him and conspire against him, then kill him. Afterwards finding out HE had been the most loyal all along.......BWAHAHAHA...sob sob....BWAHAHAHA....sniff snif....

Yep. that would work.

Leatherjacket9 wrote:


With that in mind, in theory, is not Roboute Guilliman currently the biggest violator of the Codex Astartes. .

nope, space marine chapters are still ~1000 men strong.

Space Marine Chapters are a little differant now, but Gulliman's been revising the codex

My headcannon is Guilliman had a “Horus” moment when he saw the Emperor...as in “Wow Emp you really do suck I could do SUCH a better job” and decided to put all his ideas (which the emperor probably suppressed) into action. Basically he’s Horus without the Chaos and without the resistance.

 greyknight12 wrote:
My headcannon is Guilliman had a “Horus” moment when he saw the Emperor...as in “Wow Emp you really do suck I could do SUCH a better job” and decided to put all his ideas (which the emperor probably suppressed) into action. Basically he’s Horus without the Chaos and without the resistance.

Can you blame him though? As Guilliman stated:

Roboute Guilliman wrote:The Emperor loves no one man. He cannot afford affection - that is the honest practical for the impossible task that faces the Master of Mankind. He did not love His sons, He does not love men, but He does love mankind.

The Emperor has completely detached himself from humanity the further he exists. Roboute Guilliman saw the Emperor for what he has become and Guilliman has the emotions and the intellectual mindset to help humanity to survive, which the Emperor now lacks.

A friend of mine used to like pointing out that you can’t have a light without a dark to put it in.

My steady retaliation was that without a light, you have no shades of darkness.

The GrimDark needs contrast. Shining knights to show the shades of darkness surrounding them. Guilliman may have an unappealing Lawful Good nature, it just contrasts the more starkly with the Lawful Neutral (arguably with evil tendencies) nature of the existing regime.

Success for the “good” guys should be as rare as elevation to Daemon Prince. If failure is a foregone conclusion, there is no dramatic tension. True success for the bad guys is a one in a billion shot, so too should the good guys have a shot. It may cost everything, just as elevation to Daemon Prince costs everything... but it needs to be possible.