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 greatbigtree wrote:
A friend of mine used to like pointing out that you can’t have a light without a dark to put it in.

My steady retaliation was that without a light, you have no shades of darkness.

The GrimDark needs contrast. Shining knights to show the shades of darkness surrounding them. Guilliman may have an unappealing Lawful Good nature, it just contrasts the more starkly with the Lawful Neutral (arguably with evil tendencies) nature of the existing regime.

Success for the “good” guys should be as rare as elevation to Daemon Prince. If failure is a foregone conclusion, there is no dramatic tension. True success for the bad guys is a one in a billion shot, so too should the good guys have a shot. It may cost everything, just as elevation to Daemon Prince costs everything... but it needs to be possible.

I don't know If failure being a foregone conclusion necessarily precludes dramatic tension. The world is absolutely FULL of good stories where everyone knew failure is the end result. You just build the story around other questions, like "how long can they hold out?", "what is the manner of their downfall?", "do they manage to achieve some secondary gain before the end?", "do they maintain their integrity / friendship / love / whatever despite the circumstances?", "are they able to seed some kind of hope or benefit for the future, however scant, before losing?", and so on.

Just like "the good guys will win" doesn't preclude dramatic tension in the majority of stories. And just like stories can still be told about historical events we already know the outcome of. And just like certain myths and folklore and stories get told and retold over and over again in different ways, even though everyone already knows the arc.

And just like we were able to have an entire book series about the Horus Heresy despite already knowing the ending.

Also, this is just a personal interpretation, but I definitely would call the Imperium a Lawful Evil society if I were recreating it in a D&D campaign or somesuch. It's *citizens* run the full range of the alignment chart, but the Imperium itself is almost an archetypal example of a Lawful Evil society. Such as "all other societies and all dissent from our law must be mercilessly eradicated, no matter what". I think the T'au are a much, much stronger example of Lawful Neutral. Again, almost archetypically so.

I think we’re saying the same thing. I’m not referring to “success” as survival, but in being able to create lasting positive benefit. Like, sacrificing oneself to seal the daemonic gate, saving the world / system / galaxy from destruction. That needs to be possible.

In my defence, I don’t find historical drama to have the same hook as true fiction. The good guys usually win, but not always. See Cujo by Stephen King for a real kick in the heart. It’s my biggest issue with Prequels. I know the success / failure, or at the very least survival, of the known characters is a given.

That’s me, and not everyone. I’ve never read any of the Horus Heresy. I already know how it ends. But I also like the advancing timeline of 40k, because it moves into the unknown. Not everyone likes that.

Regarding my seeing the Imperium as LN instead of LE, it is related to motivation. The Imperium is *uncaring*. The process is selfish, but uncaring of the harm inflicted. It’s a cost of doing business. Callous. It is a means to an end.

Compared to Chaos (in most 40k fiction) that revels in the harm. Growing strong on the infliction of fear and terror. They *enjoy* the harm. It is an end, and means.

Well, the kinds of smaller scale successes you mean do happen all the time in 40k. Worlds are saved, rifts are closed, rituals are stopped, civilians are evacuated, yada yada. What makes it interesting is the fact that in the big picture, the tools of war and violence and dominance aren't going to save anyone. The Imperium can't save itself from Chaos as long as they keep clinging to the idea of humans being the dominant ( and sole) species of the galaxy with a single unified society. The Aeldari can't save themselves so long as they keep narrowly, selfishly focusing only the survival of their own species and souls, ignoring the larger threats to the galaxy as a whole, and constantly betraying their potential allies for their own short-term benefit and thereby making further alliances impossible. The T'au's imperialist, expansionist mentality is just waltzing themselves right into the waiting jaws of the Tyranids and the death rays the Necrons. Etc.

"Kill all the orcs in the dungeon to save the nearby village!", other game systems were saying.

"You can't save the day just by killing all the baddies; attempting to solve problems through genocide and war and such just breeds different problems later", 40k replied.

As for the Imperium being uncaring:

I disagree! They care a great, great deal about the dominance of humanity, the eradication of Xenos and mutants, the maintenance of the Imperial Cult, and the suppression of all dissent! There's TONS of stuff the Imperium does for reasons besides practicality.

I mean, just look at their architecture.

Again, I mean that they don’t care about the harm they inflict in order to accomplish their ends. Exterminatus of a world to prevent *greater disaster* is a matter of algebra, not of malice or nihilistic glee. It is the final option. It is the certain solution, when all other signs point to failure to contain.

Like quarantine. You stop the spread of the disease. Simple math, regardless of the harm to the quarantined.

I agree that Humanity can’t stop Chaos, any more than they can stop gravity or magnetism. They are a force in that universe. But I also believe that the forces can be overcome for our practical purposes. Gravity will eventually pull buildings back to the earth, but for our practical purposes, we’ll likely choose to bring those buildings down for our own reasons before nature takes its course.

Similarly, Humanity can resist Chaos and thrive despite its existence. Being of CG alignment, I see totalitarianism as a moral “evil” for lack of better term. Even if it were capable of creating “good” it would do so by the wrong means. So to me the doom of the Imperium is unlikely. You have a God of Order opposed to the Gods of Chaos (disorder). They will find (overall) neutrality as a result. The forces of the universe balance out. Ironically, the bitter opposition to Chaos is the fuel that makes them strong. Were the Imperium willing / able to not seek dominion of the entire Galaxy, the powers would naturally wax and wane like modern countries do. The borders might be in a state of struggle, but the “core” of the Imperium would be more stable. Path of least resistance. If Chaos can do it’s thing over there without needing to oppose the Imperium here, they would likely do so.

Which would make for a boring setting... and why they don’t do that.

Well, I've never really thought of the "evil" end of the alignment spectrum as meaning "knowingly does evil things for the sake of doing evil things". It means being selfish, cruel, lacking in empathy towards others, and wiling to do awful things to achieve your ends. The Imperium meets every single one of those criteria: it selfishly wants total galactic dominance, it's cruel to other races and to its dissenters, it has no empathy for anyone outside the Imperium's strictures, and it does awful things to ensure not only its survival but also its domination and homogeneity. I see "Neutral" as being either amorality (like an animal, for example), where good vs evil, selfless vs. selfish and so on just aren't meaningfully entering into things, being so strongly focused on the law/order alignment axis that good/evil absolutely pales in comparison and fails to seriously impact your decisions, or just not quite being good enough for good or evil enough for evil.

I suppose the best way to put it is: if the Imperium are LN, then what are the T'au? Certainly not LG. And it would be pretty weird to say they're the same alignment.

We may just have different lines in the sand when it comes to where alignments are separated. To me, most people are interested in the well being of their friends and family, but care little to nothing about strangers. They are “selfish” in that they are ambivalent to the suffering of others. They enact no direct harm on others, but take no personal risks to attempt to improve the lot of a stranger, either. If they’re attacked, they defend themselves, but would not enact violence unprovoked. On a Galactic scale, that’s where I see the Imperium. Indifferent to the suffering of strangers / others, but willing to react with violence when threatened. (Even if the definition of “threatened” is so loose as to include existing.)

To a Chaotic Good, murdering an Evil Tyrant (unlawful) can create the potential for a better replacement (good). It could *potentially* serve a greater good to do so publicly, viciously, even sadistically to ensure the replacement knows their fate should they fail in their duties.

Again, likely the Chaotic nature of my point of view, the Good is determined not by the action, but by the will behind the action. Is it done for pleasure? Possibly. Retribution for the harm could be quite satisfying. In the end, the will of the slayer would be to create a future more likely to bring good to the people. And that’s what would make an otherwise monstrous activity support a greater good.

I had couched my earlier statement in the Imperium having evil tendencies. The line between callous and depraved is thin. I agree that prejudice and xenophobia, leading to violence against the helpless is evil in our reality. In 40k, it can be a means of survival. You can’t reason with a Tyranid, or an Ork, or a Daemon. There are scenarios where the reaction is “neutral” as a means of self-protection.

Drawing the line between neutral (selfish, indifferent) and evil (cruel for pleasure) is part of my definition. To be neutral, don’t actively make things worse. To be evil, actively make things worse with the *intent* to do so, for reason/s that benefit you, regardless of what that benefit is.

 greatbigtree wrote:
We may just have different lines in the sand when it comes to where alignments are separated. To me, most people are interested in the well being of their friends and family, but care little to nothing about strangers. They are “selfish” in that they are ambivalent to the suffering of others. They enact no direct harm on others, but take no personal risks to attempt to improve the lot of a stranger, either. If they’re attacked, they defend themselves, but would not enact violence unprovoked. On a Galactic scale, that’s where I see the Imperium. Indifferent to the suffering of strangers / others, but willing to react with violence when threatened. (Even if the definition of “threatened” is so loose as to include existing.

I mean, you're right that we do seem to define alignments a little differently, and that's no big... most people have slightly different interpretations! Buuuut... regarding your other points, the thing is, the Imperium very, very, very much DOES attack people unprovoked! They go on crusades of conquest all the time, and see ANY Xenos, no matter how peaceful and non-threatening, as an affront on their "rightful ownership" of the galaxy! And, making it even worse, they won't even negotiate terms of surrender. They accept nothing less than the total extermination of all non-human life, and have exterminated countless peaceful alien civilizations. Orks, Drukhari, Necrons and Tyranids by no means represent the totality of Xenos life in the 40k universe.

And yeah, unlawfully killing a tyrant to end their tyranny, even if it will cause social instability, is 100% in the CG spectrum, IMO. But *sadistically* doing so, where you deliberately draw out their pain and enjoy it? That's getting a LOT more into CN territory, if not CE.

 greatbigtree wrote:
A friend of mine used to like pointing out that you can’t have a light without a dark to put it in.

My steady retaliation was that without a light, you have no shades of darkness.

Sure, but if you make the demigod leader of the Imperium the good guy, you don't have a wavering candle casting atmospheric shadows, you have a blindingly bright high powered spotlight directed right at your eyes.

I have compared Guilliman to a torch before, shining apparent enlightenment and rationality in his immediate area temporarily, but the shadows close back in as soon as he leaves. I see the bureaucracy, the Inquisition, and the Ecclesiarchy opposing him, perhaps not directly but indirectly by slowing down his changes, omitting information, shadow proxy struggles etc... They might not even be doing so maliciously (so far nobody has accused him of being a heretic or abomination, AFAIK), but could perhaps rationalize it to themselves as "The Lord Commander is too important to want to know this" or "He has been in stasis for a long time and doesn't know how things are properly done now, which is how we'll keep doing things." After all, he occupies a place in the Imperial theology similar to an archangel, so resistance is likely to be more covert or from simple bureaucratic inertia. He is able to ram things through temporarily through force of will, reputation, administrative skill, and threat of military force, but after he goes off to troubleshoot and put out another fire, people go back to the old ways of doing things.

Guilliman is forced to make compromises such as tolerating the Ecclesiarchy and not making any overt attempts to undermine their religion. He also maybe starts to waver in his own disbelief of the Emperor as a god. The problem ultimately with Guilliman is he is still trying to save the Imperium as a whole, which means he is never able to stay put long enough to enact lasting reform to any area. If he settled for saving only a part of the Imperium he might be able to return things in that local area to a more rational situation, but then he probably would be accused of private empire building. However he is trying to save everything and in that he may be committing the fundamental error of trying to defend everything.

And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader. That he has to face insurmountable odds is just a lame attempt to try to that bland overpowered character seem somewhat relatable like some Superman comic where he has to constantly fight against absurd odds. It doesn't work. GUilliman's return is the worst thing that has happened to 40K, and has pretty much ruined the setting.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader. That he has to face insurmountable odds is just a lame attempt to try to that bland overpowered character seem somewhat relatable like some Superman comic where he has to constantly fight against absurd odds. It doesn't work. GUilliman's return is the worst thing that has happened to 40K, and has pretty much ruined the setting.

You're welcome to that opinion, I personally think it's done a good thing to provide us with a real struggle within the Imperium, beyond "the upper class is uncaring and the poor soldiers are the only good people" - now, we have both the upper and lower strata of Imperial society being repressed/inhibited by the system.

Guilliman returning and still being unable to make meaningful changes to the Imperium speaks far more about the grimdarkness than "the Imperium keeps losing oh noes", which just feels drawn out, repetitive, and lacking depth.

But that's how I see it.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader. That he has to face insurmountable odds is just a lame attempt to try to that bland overpowered character seem somewhat relatable like some Superman comic where he has to constantly fight against absurd odds. It doesn't work. GUilliman's return is the worst thing that has happened to 40K, and has pretty much ruined the setting.

Awwww! Don't bring poor battered Superman into this! Whole different context. That's supposed to be shiny, noble, aspirational, optimistic stuff! And when Superman is written well, it's not just mindlessly throwing bigger and bigger obstacles at him so he can punch them, it's to present him with problems that can't be solved by brute strength: intellectual problems, moral and ethical dilemmas, that kind of thing. There's a reason his best villains are characters like Luthor, Mxyzpytylk, Bizarro, General Lane, Darkseid, The Ultra Humanite, and Parasite. Also, almost all the best Superman stories are more about him saving people and solving problems rather than defeating villains.

Which COULD be a good argument in favour of Guilliman - "Exactly! He's faced with intellectual and moral problems like counterbalancing his vision against the practical realities of the modern Imperium, having to choose which worlds to save and which to let die, having to choose what kinds of corruption and oppression to let stand so that there's still a functional Imperium for him to lead, etc" … … except that 40k isn't a superhero story, definitely isn't a Superman story, and really really really shouldn't be.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader.

Keeping in mind that that good shiny superhero of a leader went on xenocidal rampages and campaigns of conquest on independent human worlds, just like every other Primarch. Billions - possibly trillions - of innocents, including humans, have died because of decisions this guy has made in the furtherance of establishing the Imperium of Mankind.

Robby G is merely supremely competent, rational and pragmatic and not actively cruel. That makes him a saint by 40k standards, but he's no Superman. A truly good person cannot hold together an empire and Robby G is committed to holding together an empire.

 John Prins wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader.

Keeping in mind that that good shiny superhero of a leader went on xenocidal rampages and campaigns of conquest on independent human worlds, just like every other Primarch. Billions - possibly trillions - of innocents, including humans, have died because of decisions this guy has made in the furtherance of establishing the Imperium of Mankind.

Robby G is merely supremely competent, rational and pragmatic and not actively cruel. That makes him a saint by 40k standards, but he's no Superman. A truly good person cannot hold together an empire and Robby G is committed to holding together an empire.

Definitely good points.

And arguably, a good person would never even want to hold together an empire in the first place!

nataliereed1984 wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And when that bright spotlight is incapable of piercing the ever-present gloom around them, that reinforces the grimdark.

No. It just makes the whole thing puerile. Face, it Imperium now has a good shiny superhero as a leader.

Keeping in mind that that good shiny superhero of a leader went on xenocidal rampages and campaigns of conquest on independent human worlds, just like every other Primarch. Billions - possibly trillions - of innocents, including humans, have died because of decisions this guy has made in the furtherance of establishing the Imperium of Mankind.

Robby G is merely supremely competent, rational and pragmatic and not actively cruel. That makes him a saint by 40k standards, but he's no Superman. A truly good person cannot hold together an empire and Robby G is committed to holding together an empire.

Definitely good points.

And arguably, a good person would never even want to hold together an empire in the first place!

I think you would have to, as anything close to a decent person. If you got handed the reins to the Imperium tomorrow, you would have to try and keep it together. The level of death and insane amounts of suffering caused by its downfall would not be something you could just accept out of hand. You could decide to try and dismantle it slowly, in order to both loose its worse aspects, fight chaos and give back freedoms at a smaller level of government, but that would be slow, slow going and an almost impossible task.

I'm not a huge fan of the Roboute resurrection to say the least, but if they absolutely had to start making their setting into a moving story, he might actually be the best Primarch to bring back, (yeesh, I know, but hear me out).

I find the odd man out part of his character quite interesting in the light of the Imperium of 40k. Here we have this pragmatical technocrat, this being of logic and planning and hope. One of few Primarchs that didn't really revel in warfare, but were clearly made for something else (too). Someone who might actually have been suited for the role as the Emperor's cabinet minister or something similar, had he been put to the task as planned in the 30k. Imperium. But he wasn't. And now this being of plans and logic is forced to take that very role, but in a very different universe. Now he is suddenly the leader not of an atheist military regime, ready to be slowly transformed into something more gentle, but of an orthodox theocracy; a huge, overly complicated beast of an empire drowning on its own breath under its own heavy hands. That setting is ripe for exiting juxtapositions, internal strife and ideological and psychological doubt and drama.

However... I'm not sure I trust GW anno 2020 to be able to write that setting well.

But how much my heart actually belongs to Vulkan, or how other Primarchs might be better suited to make some (pretty but impotent) grand stand against chaos, I don't really think the other Primarchs brings nearly the same chance for good storytelling as Roboute the technocrat does (now theres a sentence you don't hear every day). Russ might either accept the Imperium fully and serve it more than try to change it, or he would be so disgusted that he would end up fighting it. Vulkan would probably leave the Imperium to its day to day running and try to change things by example, promethean cult style. The Khan would hate what he saw, but he wouldn't have the patience to try and change things. Dorn would react much like Roboute but without a fighting chance against the giant bureaucracy he faced, the Lion would probably more fully embrace the power of the throne... who else?

Now, to speculate.

1. I don't think other returning Primarchs will have much grief with Guilliman. Remember how radically different the regime they will encounter is to the one they left. Lion'el might make some fuss just because he has to, but other than that I see much more potential conflict between the Primarchs and the Imperium than between the Primarchs themselves.
2. What will become of the Imperial cult? Can Roboute truly tolerate it? and if not, can he even begin to hope to oppose it?
3. Looming in the distance is the possible birth of a new god. Either the boring version, where the emperor is reborn a man and can take over from Gulli. Or, much more exiting, a future where the worship of Emps give birth to a new, wholly sentient and big warp entity... now, the Imperium and all the fanboys might think that they want this, but with what we now of Chaos gods, this is in fact probably the most devilishly frightening scenario of them all. A future where Emps' children have to wage war against a godlike being born in their gene-fathers images is quite fun... if they really have to go someplace new with the setting.

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

I've been subscribing to this idea since the late 90's. They also dropped the ball by not having Cypher turn out to be The Lion.

>Lion accuses Rowboat of trying to take control of all the Imperiums military might
>Rowboat pinkie promises this isn't true look I told Hawk Boi to do it
>Lion sleeps a Bit
>Lion wakes up
>Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might
Sorry, >Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might after being resurrected by space elves known for their plots and treachery and psychic manipulation literally in defiance of the rules ROWBOAT HIMSELF WROTE TO MAKE SURE THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN.
WhatIsThisHeresy.meme

But knowing the state of 40k lore writing post Gathering Storm the Lion will probably just tell Azrael to publish and unredacted history of the Dark Angels across the galaxy in Hardback and ePub format, go practice kissing with Mary Cawl and then go become a moisture farmer.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
>Lion accuses Rowboat of trying to take control of all the Imperiums military might
>Rowboat pinkie promises this isn't true look I told Hawk Boi to do it
>Lion sleeps a Bit
>Lion wakes up
>Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might
Sorry, >Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might after being resurrected by space elves known for their plots and treachery and psychic manipulation literally in defiance of the rules ROWBOAT HIMSELF WROTE TO MAKE SURE THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN.
WhatIsThisHeresy.meme

You forgot "8000 years pass, all other Primarchs go missing, warp storms break across half the Imperium after Cadia falls and some crazy Emperor worshiping religion has effectively taken over most of the Imperium. Also Tyranids and Necrons showed up to say hello/die humans."

Any one of those things justifies a certain amount of reconsideration on Roboute's part. Probably along the lines of "Crap, if I HAD taken over the Imperium's Military Might, we wouldn't be in this pickle right now."

 John Prins wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
>Lion accuses Rowboat of trying to take control of all the Imperiums military might
>Rowboat pinkie promises this isn't true look I told Hawk Boi to do it
>Lion sleeps a Bit
>Lion wakes up
>Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might
Sorry, >Rowboat has taken control of all the Imperiums military might after being resurrected by space elves known for their plots and treachery and psychic manipulation literally in defiance of the rules ROWBOAT HIMSELF WROTE TO MAKE SURE THIS WOULDN'T HAPPEN.
WhatIsThisHeresy.meme

You forgot "8000 years pass, all other Primarchs go missing, warp storms break across half the Imperium after Cadia falls and some crazy Emperor worshiping religion has effectively taken over most of the Imperium. Also Tyranids and Necrons showed up to say hello/die humans."

Any one of those things justifies a certain amount of reconsideration on Roboute's part. Probably along the lines of "Crap, if I HAD taken over the Imperium's Military Might, we wouldn't be in this pickle right now."

Precisely :-) If they just jump into the same roles they had almost 10.000 years ago it is seriously shoddy writing

None of that changes the reason why Rowboat did what he did. It's hypocritical to say "No one man should have all that power, except totes for me lol I am trustworthy honest."

people always like to forget Gulliman was running the IoM when he died. if the Lion came back his only comment would be ".. what the hell got things screwed up so bad while I was away Robute?!"

Seriously for the Lion, Gulliman running the IoM was the STATUS QUO when he dissappered

 Just Tony wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
A friend of mine enjoys the wild, unsupported headcanon that Guilliman has just been playing the Tzeentchian long con ever since Imperium Secundus.

I've been subscribing to this idea since the late 90's. They also dropped the ball by not having Cypher turn out to be The Lion.

Yeah, I also always hoped Cypher was an astral projection of the Lion (a little like Luke's trick in SW: Ep8).

Changing your mind when new evidence shows you were wrong is not hypocrisy.

Although I could easily see a newly-awakened Lion interpreting Guilliman's actions the same way BCB has.

For all Lion would know, Roboute just created a second rate, run down imperium and ran it into the ground. He wouldn't even know Roboute spent most of that time in stasis at the point of death.

The first perceptions an awoken Lion would have would 'prove' all his worst fears about Roboute true.

Excellent long game by Tzeentch!

BrianDavion wrote:
people always like to forget Gulliman was running the IoM when he died.

Well, yes, he was always a hypocrite.

nareik wrote:
For all Lion would know, Roboute just created a second rate, run down imperium and ran it into the ground. He wouldn't even know Roboute spent most of that time in stasis at the point of death.

The first perceptions an awoken Lion would have would 'prove' all his worst fears about Roboute true.

Excellent long game by Tzeentch!

Well, yes... the exchange would go something like this.

Lion El'Johnson upon bursting into the HQ of Gulli, finding his ambitious brother in blue standing over a hologram of the galaxy.

"Hey Robbie, you prick, what the F happened? You messed it all up!"

"Lion El' my long lost brother! What a joy it is to see you! I was slain, eight thousand accursedly long years ago, I thought I should never return, nor see you again, but the sight of you brings me hope anew, that we can turn this wretched corpse of an empire around. Pray tell me, where have you been, my proud friend?".

"Oh... well... you know... Luther... left me... so.., you know... I just couldn't get out of bed... "

"oh... Well... I understand... ... ... The important thing is that we are here now, ready to save His work".

"Yeah! Where are those traitorous devils, point me at 'em and i'll show them what bladework truly is, I have been itching for a fight the last two millennium... you do have a plan right, right?"

"Sure, come join me now, let us talk, we have much to do and little time, but for now, let us rejoice the two of us still draw breath".

The camera slowly pans to outside the palace, while the sun sets - but just before the episode fades to black, we hear the voice of Lion, loud, going higher and higher into high pitch.

"YOU ARE TELLING ME WE HAD THOSE SUPER SUPER SOLDIERS HELD IN STASIS FOR HOOOW LONG?"

cue Piano tunes and jolly times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
people always like to forget Gulliman was running the IoM when he died.

Well, yes, he was always a hypocrite.

Most dictators are...

Sill, I wish we could all just bury the Primaris background fluff and forget it ever happened, secret legions and all. I almost feel bad for Pappa smurf that he's the one who has to shoulder that fever dream of a plotline. but alas. Here we are.

However, I think we will find out most of the Primarchs who splitt up their legions (and maybe the rest of them too) had some fail safe plans put in place in order to guard themselve and their father's regime from more revolts between them. Russ flat out refused to splitt his legion, Dorn had the last war protocol (? Might misremember the name), who knows how many maguffins Vulkan has planted all over the Imperium etc.

Leatherjacket9 wrote:
Guilliman is the current Savior of the Imperium. But is he also it's current and greatest threat?

Roboute created the Codex Astartes to protect the Imperium of Man from someone like Horus and also potentially,... Himself.

The Codex Astartes helps make it so that no one person would ever be able to amass, control, and manage a military force so large, that they could ever pose a threat to the imperium as a whole... As Horus once did.

With that in mind, in theory, is not Roboute Guilliman currently the biggest violator of the Codex Astartes. Guilliman currently carries not only all Imperial military might, but also the sword of the Emperor, displaying more power and authority than Horus ever had.

Roboute may be the biggest Horisian threat the Empire of Man will ever see.

Surely if Lion El Johnson were to return now. It would seem to him that Roboute became Emperor just like Johnson thought Roboute was secretly trying to do all along.

Yes.
For all intents, he's now the new SPASS Emprah. Or in the words of our spiritual guru "POWER raw UNLIMITED POWER!!!"

RG is a heretic and will burn.

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?
Who will burn him?