Does this bother anyone else? CSM have the same stat lines as tacs. Could this be something they address in 9th? I would imagine they should be infused with chaos power and therefore stronger than their loyalist equivalents. Thoughts?
Stat granularity. A Tactical Marine is approximately a Guardsman with +1 to every stat (and +2 to Armour). Is a Chaos Marine suffused with enough Chaos power that they're somehow as much better at something than a Tactical Marine than a Tactical Marine is better than a Guardsman?
I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.
Considering chaos took a Primarchs and put him on the same level as the emperor I would argue yes, they should have some sort of boon that loyalists don’t. Either an extra wound a la primaris or for real flavor, a boon from their dedicated god that isn’t just a 10pt banner.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.
They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.
firehockey91 wrote: Considering chaos took a Primarchs and put him on the same level as the emperor I would argue yes, they should have some sort of boon that loyalists don’t. Either an extra wound a la primaris or for real flavor, a boon from their dedicated god that isn’t just a 10pt banner.
yeah except that wasn't what chaos does to everyone Horus was A: a special case. B: I don't think really was in par with the emperor. I mean the story has always been told the Emperor held back hoping to dissuade Horus from his fall, and once he realized that was impossiable and cut loose Horus was obliterated.
That’s understandable but there’s also Sanguinius ex machine there as well. And Horus was significantly more powerful than he was pre corruption so it would make some sense to give followers of specific gods a minor boost to a stat or ability that represents chaos power infusion
I hope so. I’d like to see supplements for chaos much the way loyalists got. F&F is a good start. I would just like to see basic CSMs have that chaos representation in some way
firehockey91 wrote: Considering chaos took a Primarchs and put him on the same level as the emperor I would argue yes, they should have some sort of boon that loyalists don’t. Either an extra wound a la primaris or for real flavor, a boon from their dedicated god that isn’t just a 10pt banner.
yeah except that wasn't what chaos does to everyone Horus was A: a special case. B: I don't think really was in par with the emperor. I mean the story has always been told the Emperor held back hoping to dissuade Horus from his fall, and once he realized that was impossiable and cut loose Horus was obliterated.
I know this has been somewhat retconned, but I think Horus got on par to what the Emperor was perceived as, no one had just really realized just how massively powerful a psyker the Emperor was.
Back in the days, in one of the explanations for the fight, the Emperor truly got his *ss handed to him by Horus, and only managed to win because he let his glimmer down and showed his gene-son what he truly looked like beneath all the warp magic (a frail old human), thus throwing Horus off guard just long enough for the Emperor to get through with a last, desperate full frontal blast with all he ever had.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.
They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.
The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.
Agreed. Csm should be veterans. And give the legions their respective troops back. Raptors for night lords terminators for black legion etc.
Back in the old days CSM were Tacticals that had +1 attack (due to having Bolt Pistol, Bolter AND a Chainsword) that could be in 20 man blobs.
I think even now they still have the bonus of getting Chainswords where Tacticals don't, right? Considering Morale literally doesn't affect small Marine squads and they also have ATSKNF, would +1 Ld on CSM be that egregious?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.
They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.
The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.
IMHO renegades should be a stand alone book by themselves, they could easily be made differant eneugh to fill a nice middle ground
yep, it's time to get rid of Chaos Space Marines as we know them and break them into Veterans (current chosen) and Renegades (being what CSM are right now)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.
They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.
The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.
IMHO renegades should be a stand alone book by themselves, they could easily be made differant eneugh to fill a nice middle ground
See I don't think that's necessary. It leads to unneeded bloat when it could be stupid simple, and I've discussed this in several threads. Here's how you create it:
1. You consolidate the Angels. You spread the units and upgrades that should be shared.
2. Next, you create 4-5 unique units for each Chapter and the Successors. Remove most of the unnecessary bloat of the Supplements. Each Chapter gets 2 Psyker Powers, 3 Warlord Traits, 4 Relics, 5 Strats
3. Renegades are a few pages section. Here you show how to switch Keywords to make them function. They lose the Chapter's special units and relics (so the generic Marine stuff is good), and they get their own little section of point #2. Huron is treated as a Chapter Master and his merry band of men are treated as White Scars successors (so they have the Advance + Charge and mini Biking/Speeder bonus).
Two of the biggest things we know about loyalist marines is that they have practice and drills 16 hours a day, and that they have a very formal schedule for when they qualify to be in what squad.
When they hit Chaos all that discipline goes out the window. The best marines in a squad will just leave and start their own squad, or try to take one over. Meanwhile the daily drills turn into blood sports and self indulgence. They’ll have two groups, one that are go-getters and chosen, and one that are in some ways actually less good than regular tacticals.
And we also know that the chaos legions that are still organized enough make new marines. They use barbarous practices and treat their recruits terribly and expect them to fight their ways up. So it seems like the original legions would also have two types of marine, on one hand some warp-infused heresy era legionnaires and on the other hand some crudely made reinforcements with malfunctioning organs and terrible training.
Chaos forces are mashed up with each other anyway. At the siege of Vraks the world eaters were lead by a berserker who had actually been from a loyalist successor chapter and had gotten captured then fought his way into commanding the warband. Originally the warband were world eaters, but half his berserkers were actually from a different renegade chapter but whom he’d absorbed and had gotten to submit to the nails surgery.
We also have ADBs long post about what a war band is like.
It seems a lot like renegades and traitor legions are very similar and blended, and that both of them have not only extremely powerful chosen but also scrub-tier marines.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.
They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.
The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.
IMHO renegades should be a stand alone book by themselves, they could easily be made differant eneugh to fill a nice middle ground
See I don't think that's necessary. It leads to unneeded bloat when it could be stupid simple, and I've discussed this in several threads. Here's how you create it:
1. You consolidate the Angels. You spread the units and upgrades that should be shared.
2. Next, you create 4-5 unique units for each Chapter and the Successors. Remove most of the unnecessary bloat of the Supplements. Each Chapter gets 2 Psyker Powers, 3 Warlord Traits, 4 Relics, 5 Strats
3. Renegades are a few pages section. Here you show how to switch Keywords to make them function. They lose the Chapter's special units and relics (so the generic Marine stuff is good), and they get their own little section of point #2. Huron is treated as a Chapter Master and his merry band of men are treated as White Scars successors (so they have the Advance + Charge and mini Biking/Speeder bonus).
\
not gonna argue this with you dude. you've beaten this horse to death. suffice to say I disagree.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.
They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.
The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.
IMHO renegades should be a stand alone book by themselves, they could easily be made differant eneugh to fill a nice middle ground
See I don't think that's necessary. It leads to unneeded bloat when it could be stupid simple, and I've discussed this in several threads. Here's how you create it:
1. You consolidate the Angels. You spread the units and upgrades that should be shared.
2. Next, you create 4-5 unique units for each Chapter and the Successors. Remove most of the unnecessary bloat of the Supplements. Each Chapter gets 2 Psyker Powers, 3 Warlord Traits, 4 Relics, 5 Strats
3. Renegades are a few pages section. Here you show how to switch Keywords to make them function. They lose the Chapter's special units and relics (so the generic Marine stuff is good), and they get their own little section of point #2. Huron is treated as a Chapter Master and his merry band of men are treated as White Scars successors (so they have the Advance + Charge and mini Biking/Speeder bonus).
\
not gonna argue this with you dude. you've beaten this horse to death. suffice to say I disagree.
Yeah, you disagree with removing unnecessary bloat. I'm sure you'll welcome 7th 2.0 with open arms.
firehockey91 wrote: Does this bother anyone else? CSM have the same stat lines as tacs. Could this be something they address in 9th? I would imagine they should be infused with chaos power and therefore stronger than their loyalist equivalents. Thoughts?
Wow, you noticed this now? These two troop types were very much alike since 2nd.
Does it? We're playing a company-scale wargame based on d6s where we frequently need to be able to track 100+ models per side, and where we need to be able to track unaltered humans and fifty-foot stompy robots using the same rules. There are about 350 datasheets in 40k (considering datasheets with the same name in different books, like "Tactical Squad" or "Rhino", to be rotational isomers rather than distinct datasheets). You could claim that everything needs to be unique and have a unique statline, but there are something like 620,000,000 unique statlines possible within the current system, you don't need to fiddle with the numbers/d6s very much to do that (there are 70,000 unique statlines possible within the range of stats current Codexes use just for Troops...). You could claim that everything needs to have unique numbers in every stat, but does that mean everything needs to have a stat number somewhere from 1 to 350?
Is there a point at which you're just making the game more complicated for the sake of making it more complicated and it doesn't really help much?
2W 2A Marines is a Primaris thing. It's their own thing.
Chaos Space Marines are not Primaris and are not getting 2W and 2A anytime soon. Indeed, they are the equivalent of Tacs.
It's a commercial thing to make people want to buy Primaris instead of Old Marines and that's it.
And don't bring the lore up. There's as much lore going in favor of 2W 2A Chaos Space Marines (Chosen, veterans of the HH etc) as there is going against it (1. Legions are not solely made of tough veterans 2. they do make fresh new CSM 3. a good portion of the Legions are made of renegades nowadays 4. Chaos can be a handicap as much as a boost).
It might change of course ... In a couple of years. But I'm not seeing GW taking away anytime soon what makes Primaris unique, especially since they are a very recent addition to 40K.
Does it? We're playing a company-scale wargame based on d6s where we frequently need to be able to track 100+ models per side, and where we need to be able to track unaltered humans and fifty-foot stompy robots using the same rules. There are about 350 datasheets in 40k (considering datasheets with the same name in different books, like "Tactical Squad" or "Rhino", to be rotational isomers rather than distinct datasheets). You could claim that everything needs to be unique and have a unique statline, but there are something like 620,000,000 unique statlines possible within the current system, you don't need to fiddle with the numbers/d6s very much to do that (there are 70,000 unique statlines possible within the range of stats current Codexes use just for Troops...). You could claim that everything needs to have unique numbers in every stat, but does that mean everything needs to have a stat number somewhere from 1 to 350?
Is there a point at which you're just making the game more complicated for the sake of making it more complicated and it doesn't really help much?
I'm starting to think that stats are meaning less and less in this game, and that special rules are the name of the game. Which is to say, ignoring core rules (which is what special rules basically are) are more important than what numbers you get. Some are still important, like ≥T8 or <T8. But BS3+ vs BS4+? Who cares, when you get all re-rolls all the time?
See: Primaris Marines before and after improved chapter tactics, doctrines, bolter drills etc.
Problem with CSM: not stats, but that they play the rules of 40k, rather than being excepted from half of them.>
Does it? We're playing a company-scale wargame based on d6s where we frequently need to be able to track 100+ models per side, and where we need to be able to track unaltered humans and fifty-foot stompy robots using the same rules. There are about 350 datasheets in 40k (considering datasheets with the same name in different books, like "Tactical Squad" or "Rhino", to be rotational isomers rather than distinct datasheets). You could claim that everything needs to be unique and have a unique statline, but there are something like 620,000,000 unique statlines possible within the current system, you don't need to fiddle with the numbers/d6s very much to do that (there are 70,000 unique statlines possible within the range of stats current Codexes use just for Troops...). You could claim that everything needs to have unique numbers in every stat, but does that mean everything needs to have a stat number somewhere from 1 to 350?
Is there a point at which you're just making the game more complicated for the sake of making it more complicated and it doesn't really help much?
We're not there yet.
Better stat granularity with D8s or D10s would be preferred by me at this point.
Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.
The Salt Mine wrote: Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.
The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.
The Salt Mine wrote: Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.
The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.
You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.
The Salt Mine wrote: Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.
The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.
You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.
Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.
The Salt Mine wrote: Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.
The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.
You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.
Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.
Almost as though it would just be the really good Veterans left as the bulk of their forces like it should've been in the first place! Big think time
The Salt Mine wrote: Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.
The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.
You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.
Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.
Almost as though it would just be the really good Veterans left as the bulk of their forces like it should've been in the first place! Big think time
Almost as if most of what you see would be post heresy traitors with breaking equipment.
The Salt Mine wrote: Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.
The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.
You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.
Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.
Almost as though it would just be the really good Veterans left as the bulk of their forces like it should've been in the first place! Big think time
Almost as if most of what you see would be post heresy traitors with breaking equipment.
You mean the ones that should be organized like...Codex Marines?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nah you're right. Makes sense their Vanguard Vets disappeared and all became Raptors with one less attack!
pelicaniforce wrote: Two of the biggest things we know about loyalist marines is that they have practice and drills 16 hours a day, and that they have a very formal schedule for when they qualify to be in what squad.
When they hit Chaos all that discipline goes out the window. The best marines in a squad will just leave and start their own squad, or try to take one over. Meanwhile the daily drills turn into blood sports and self indulgence. They’ll have two groups, one that are go-getters and chosen, and one that are in some ways actually less good than regular tacticals.
And we also know that the chaos legions that are still organized enough make new marines. They use barbarous practices and treat their recruits terribly and expect them to fight their ways up. So it seems like the original legions would also have two types of marine, on one hand some warp-infused heresy era legionnaires and on the other hand some crudely made reinforcements with malfunctioning organs and terrible training.
Chaos forces are mashed up with each other anyway. At the siege of Vraks the world eaters were lead by a berserker who had actually been from a loyalist successor chapter and had gotten captured then fought his way into commanding the warband. Originally the warband were world eaters, but half his berserkers were actually from a different renegade chapter but whom he’d absorbed and had gotten to submit to the nails surgery.
We also have ADBs long post about what a war band is like.
It seems a lot like renegades and traitor legions are very similar and blended, and that both of them have not only extremely powerful chosen but also scrub-tier marines.
^ Very much this.
CSMs are highly varied, and already have tiers of "veteranship" in the form of Chosen, Terminators, Cult Marines, Possessed, etc. Basic CSM's are roughly the equivalent of Tacticals, except less regimented(options for chainswords and more flexibility with Heavy/Specials) and less disciplined (no AKSKNF).
I prefer the older balance a bit more where ATSKNF was more powerful, but CSMs had the option of taking Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword. Seems like GW is in the business of removing options from units though :/
The Salt Mine wrote: Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.
The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.
You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.
Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.
Almost as though it would just be the really good Veterans left as the bulk of their forces like it should've been in the first place! Big think time
Almost as if most of what you see would be post heresy traitors with breaking equipment.
Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!
Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.
Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!
Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.
except thats not how reality works, if that was how reality worked you'd see every long war end with the militaries in every country being super elite. instead the quality goes down hill as supply and recruitment becomes problemtic, recruitment standards reduce and people are thrown into combat with a fraction of the training that the peace time army had received. we know chaos warbands are still recruiting, we also can assume given the over all break down of the legions into renegade warbands means their training regimes are less through. So yes the chaos veterns are proably very skilled. which definatly should be represented, Chosen should be absolutely terrifying, and proably, outside of characters, the most deadly marines out there, they shouldn't be on par with veterns, they should be honorguard level scary, but yeah the rank and file CSMs, should be about on par with tac marines but less disiplined etc. but those shou;dn't be seen as representing heresy era CSMs, but rather those recruited since the heresy.
Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!
Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.
As BrianDavion explains, all that does is get you a teeny-tiny little army of irreplaceable elites which can't wage an effective war. You need replacements and/or mooks to do the tasks the Vets are too wily to do themselves. A Chaos warband is a thriving ecosystem of shifting hierarchies and levels of experience, and at the bottom of the CSMs you have comparatively disorganized, less motivated, and poorly equipped regulars.
As I see it, the best solution would be to make Chosen a Troops choice, alongside a points adjustment so that Chosen, regular CSMs and Cultists all remain viable choices. At present, the CSM codex has far too many things stuffed into the Elite slot.
If you want to represent a warband of 10,000 year old Legionary veterans, you take all Chosen as your Troops. If you want a ragtag band of piratical renegades, you take regular CSMs. If you want a Legion warband that has filled its attrition-depleted ranks with new recruits, you take a mix of the two.
To me, regular CSMs represent what used (back in the RT era) to be termed 'Chaos Renegades' - guys in power armour who might be undisciplined or under-equipped Chaos-worshipping Space Marines, or might be human space pirates with looted armour and weapons, or some local warlord's or cult leader's custom augmented/genhanced enforcers. In any case, they're not quite as good as 'proper' Astartes, but they're elite compared to Cultists. Meanwhile, the true Chaos Legionnaires are a separate (and terrifyingly powerful) force of ancient nigh-immortal veterans.
Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!
Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.
except thats not how reality works, if that was how reality worked you'd see every long war end with the militaries in every country being super elite. instead the quality goes down hill as supply and recruitment becomes problemtic, recruitment standards reduce and people are thrown into combat with a fraction of the training that the peace time army had received. we know chaos warbands are still recruiting, we also can assume given the over all break down of the legions into renegade warbands means their training regimes are less through. So yes the chaos veterns are proably very skilled. which definatly should be represented, Chosen should be absolutely terrifying, and proably, outside of characters, the most deadly marines out there, they shouldn't be on par with veterns, they should be honorguard level scary, but yeah the rank and file CSMs, should be about on par with tac marines but less disiplined etc. but those shou;dn't be seen as representing heresy era CSMs, but rather those recruited since the heresy.
That's exactly what I'm arguing. Chosen should be a superior, more expensive troops choice just like intercessors are for loyalists. The basic troops choice is the most important building block of an army. I believe we're in agreement. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Insectum7 wrote: Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".
No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.
By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.
Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!
Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.
except thats not how reality works, if that was how reality worked you'd see every long war end with the militaries in every country being super elite. instead the quality goes down hill as supply and recruitment becomes problemtic, recruitment standards reduce and people are thrown into combat with a fraction of the training that the peace time army had received. we know chaos warbands are still recruiting, we also can assume given the over all break down of the legions into renegade warbands means their training regimes are less through. So yes the chaos veterns are proably very skilled. which definatly should be represented, Chosen should be absolutely terrifying, and proably, outside of characters, the most deadly marines out there, they shouldn't be on par with veterns, they should be honorguard level scary, but yeah the rank and file CSMs, should be about on par with tac marines but less disiplined etc. but those shou;dn't be seen as representing heresy era CSMs, but rather those recruited since the heresy.
That's exactly what I'm arguing. Chosen should be a superior, more expensive troops choice just like intercessors are for loyalists. The basic troops choice is the most important building block of an army. I believe we're in agreement. Correct me if I'm wrong.
One of the worst things to do when designing an army is to make two units that do exactly the same thing but one of them is better than the other. Back in 5e when the Grey Knights came out I could take Strike Squads or Terminators in Troops, or I could take Crowe and get Purifiers in Troops. They all had almost identical statlines and identical equipment, so everyone just took the Purifiers because they did every job either of the other two did better and/or cheaper.
Intercessors aren't a strictly better Troops choice; they have better statlines, true, but they don't have the equipment flexibility or transport options of Tacticals or Scouts, or the advance deployment tricks of Infiltrators or Scouts. They're not a straightforward replacement for anything else that does all the same things better. If you want Chosen to be an alternate Troops choice you might need to give them an identity other than "Chaos Marines but with better stats and more options."
Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!
Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.
As BrianDavion explains, all that does is get you a teeny-tiny little army of irreplaceable elites which can't wage an effective war. You need replacements and/or mooks to do the tasks the Vets are too wily to do themselves. A Chaos warband is a thriving ecosystem of shifting hierarchies and levels of experience, and at the bottom of the CSMs you have comparatively disorganized, less motivated, and poorly equipped regulars.
Thats because Chaos Legions never create effective campaigns unless they're all united in the first place, which seems to happen a good amount anyway, so what's your point?
Insectum7 wrote: Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".
No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.
By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.
Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!
Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.
except thats not how reality works, if that was how reality worked you'd see every long war end with the militaries in every country being super elite. instead the quality goes down hill as supply and recruitment becomes problemtic, recruitment standards reduce and people are thrown into combat with a fraction of the training that the peace time army had received. we know chaos warbands are still recruiting, we also can assume given the over all break down of the legions into renegade warbands means their training regimes are less through. So yes the chaos veterns are proably very skilled. which definatly should be represented, Chosen should be absolutely terrifying, and proably, outside of characters, the most deadly marines out there, they shouldn't be on par with veterns, they should be honorguard level scary, but yeah the rank and file CSMs, should be about on par with tac marines but less disiplined etc. but those shou;dn't be seen as representing heresy era CSMs, but rather those recruited since the heresy.
That's exactly what I'm arguing. Chosen should be a superior, more expensive troops choice just like intercessors are for loyalists. The basic troops choice is the most important building block of an army. I believe we're in agreement. Correct me if I'm wrong.
One of the worst things to do when designing an army is to make two units that do exactly the same thing but one of them is better than the other. Back in 5e when the Grey Knights came out I could take Strike Squads or Terminators in Troops, or I could take Crowe and get Purifiers in Troops. They all had almost identical statlines and identical equipment, so everyone just took the Purifiers because they did every job either of the other two did better and/or cheaper.
Intercessors aren't a strictly better Troops choice; they have better statlines, true, but they don't have the equipment flexibility or transport options of Tacticals or Scouts, or the advance deployment tricks of Infiltrators or Scouts. They're not a straightforward replacement for anything else that does all the same things better. If you want Chosen to be an alternate Troops choice you might need to give them an identity other than "Chaos Marines but with better stats and more options."
IOW you're correct, so let's just toss the Chaos Marine entry entirely.
Insectum7 wrote: Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".
No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.
By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.
Tacs and Intercessors are "rank and file" within chapter organization. CSM are the same role within traitor legions. This should neither be new information, nor difficult to comprehend.
Thats because Chaos Legions never create effective campaigns unless they're all united in the first place, which seems to happen a good amount anyway, so what's your point?
And to make the numbers, a considerable amount of non-vets are included.
Insectum7 wrote: Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".
No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.
By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.
Tacs and Intercessors are "rank and file" within chapter organization. CSM are the same role within traitor legions. This should neither be new information, nor difficult to comprehend.
Thats because Chaos Legions never create effective campaigns unless they're all united in the first place, which seems to happen a good amount anyway, so what's your point?
And to make the numbers, a considerable amount of non-vets are included.
"To make the numbers"
What numbers are you referring to? Do Chaos Legions need to have as many dudes as Loyalists to create an effective campaign?
Insectum7 wrote: Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".
No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.
Intercessor "veterans" are a stratagem, not an option.
By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.
Intercessors fill a "troop" slot. They're an elite troop, certainly, but they're not natively veterans--that's a stratagem in and of itself.
Now, if you want to argue that Chosen should be better or a stratagem? That's an argument to make.
Arguably in any regards, we shouldn't have "Troop" Space Marines. But GW played it too safe this edition by not making armies reliably able to utilize things like the Vanguard Detachments.
It's threads like these that's always raised the question for me: Why is Chaos Marines the main antagonist/ biggest threat to the Imperium? They seem to be constantly described as ill-disciplined, armed with failing equipment, constantly infighting, have questionable leaders, and their closest allies seem just as quick to screw them over as their enemies.
More on topic, I think bringing back the old marks which allowed you to upgrade a stat for a price, or at least something like that, would give CSM something to let them have an advantage. Ideally, more equipment options as well as others have said. It seems odd that a group described as being very individualistic is more restricted than the regimented Imperial equivalent (and I can sympathize, playing orks)
Insectum7 wrote: Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".
No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.
Intercessor "veterans" are a stratagem, not an option.
By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.
Intercessors fill a "troop" slot. They're an elite troop, certainly, but they're not natively veterans--that's a stratagem in and of itself.
Now, if you want to argue that Chosen should be better or a stratagem? That's an argument to make.
Arguably in any regards, we shouldn't have "Troop" Space Marines. But GW played it too safe this edition by not making armies reliably able to utilize things like the Vanguard Detachments.
Well we have to work with the mechanics gw chose for list construction so either units like chosen should be able to be taken as troops or armies like space marines, custodes, gk, and deathwatch should be limited to taking detachments that don't require troops because they don't have anything that qualifies as "basic rank and file ".
Honestly I think this just boils down to basic loyalist logic of "we can have 2w, 2 attack, with 30 inch range weapons troops but csm can't have 1w, 2 attack, 24 inch range weapons troops BECAUSE REASONS".
Horus Heresy era space marines were nothing compared to the horror that W40k is. Space marines rolfstomping Primarchs. Chapter Masters being able to fight off Greater Demons. Horus heresy captain is equivalent to W40k fresh space marine. W40k captain on the other hand is equivalent to Horus Heresy Legion's most elite troops.
Such drastic shift in power is due to two things. Experience and training. Contrary to the popular belief, Crusade era space marines sucked. This was due to huge pressure for constant reinforcements and numbers. Crusade Era forces solely relied on legionaries while relegating humans to mere peacekeeping and patrol duties most of the time. Due to this, training of new space marines were short. Most chapters would raise new space marine in 4-5 years. At the end of Crusade, this process would be optimized to 2-3 years. This means that Horus Heresy space marines were less experienced and skilled than w40k Scouts and would get outperformed by them. There was far less failures in recruitment processes, because Crusade era legions had huge demand for constant flow of new recruits, so they considered deaths and failures as unnecessary. Thus, they produced more space marines at the cost of quality of those recruits.
The second thing which everybody forgets is that Crusade era had massive rate of attrition, hence huge numbers and reinforcements. It lasted centuries and there were few notable space marines who fought from start to finish. Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.
Duskweaver wrote: If you want a Legion warband that has filled its attrition-depleted ranks with new recruits, you take a mix of the two.
To me, regular CSMs represent what used (back in the RT era) to be termed 'Chaos Renegades' - guys in power armour who might be undisciplined or under-equipped Chaos-worshipping Space Marines, or might be human space pirates with looted armour and weapons, or some local warlord's or cult leader's custom augmented/genhanced enforcers. In any case, they're not quite as good as 'proper' Astartes, but they're elite compared to Cultists. Meanwhile, the true Chaos Legionnaires are a separate (and terrifyingly powerful) force of ancient nigh-immortal veterans.
Absolutely, if you have a game or comic with ninjas, there are either lots of them who are just goons for someone else and aren’t that strong, or there are one or two ninjas who are terrifying and magical. There should be rules both for chaos troops who are actually worse than proper marines, as well as chosen who are better.
I think like Ld 6 or 5, bs 4+.
Then you’d have chosen with really good stats and equipment. Chaos armor for a 2+, some 2+ ws and maybe bs.
It's really not. Very few if any Chaos Marines have 10k years of experience and it seems ridiculous to claim that Crusade Marines suck. They have the same enhancements but without it being reused for ten thousand years and while they train less a lot of that is just because they didn't have to spend five years getting indoctrinated.
Even Eldar spends more than 2 years to become an aspect warrior. I would question how actually good is a freshly baked superhuman who not only has to spend those two years in actually getting those implants, but also growing into maturity and coming to understand his new superhuman nature. Even our more elite formations train for longer. That is excluding painful, complicated operations which takes years to fully gain root and mature within host bodies. We also do not break down individual and rebuild him into a weapon.
Of course not every Chaos Marine is 10 thousand years old, but this is the point. Some of them are. Actually quite a bit of them are that damn old, because Chaos sees extreme value in them. This is why Eliphas keeps reincarnating into new space marine bodies and keeps returning like some Saturday cartoon villain. Furthermore, such pacts are actually common amongst forces of Chaos, because you do not live for so long without knowing when to retreat and which bargains to strike with Gods.
I do not know about others, but I like my Chaos Space marines to be nightmarish superhumans who lived far beyond comprehension of mortal minds. Are of unmatched experience and skill while at the same time having simply horrifying abilities which they had earned through their millenia of service. I like to imagine every veteran being like Kharn, Typhus, Lucius or Ahrimar. One is rotting corpse who can soak up direct battle cannon hits and keep on moving, fighting and regenerating. Others like Lucius who keep resurrecting over and over until you kill it in ritualistic, blessed fashion. It makes sense after all. Yet, in general I find GW treatment of Chaos to be quite poor. We got just few of really cool units like Defilers, Helldrakes, Chaos Talons, Obliterators. Yet, at the same time Chaos can feel like spikey space marine version which simply doesn't make sense. Chaos has much more advanced tech than Imperium in a lot of areas. Chaos has in general much more experienced warriors. Chaos has no taboo or restriction in accessing warp, yet it still gets same perils of the warp throw. A LOT of stuff about Chaos doesn't make sense.
Ernestas wrote: Horus Heresy era space marines were nothing compared to the horror that W40k is. Space marines rolfstomping Primarchs. Chapter Masters being able to fight off Greater Demons. Horus heresy captain is equivalent to W40k fresh space marine. W40k captain on the other hand is equivalent to Horus Heresy Legion's most elite troops.
Such drastic shift in power is due to two things. Experience and training. Contrary to the popular belief, Crusade era space marines sucked. This was due to huge pressure for constant reinforcements and numbers. Crusade Era forces solely relied on legionaries while relegating humans to mere peacekeeping and patrol duties most of the time. Due to this, training of new space marines were short. Most chapters would raise new space marine in 4-5 years. At the end of Crusade, this process would be optimized to 2-3 years. This means that Horus Heresy space marines were less experienced and skilled than w40k Scouts and would get outperformed by them. There was far less failures in recruitment processes, because Crusade era legions had huge demand for constant flow of new recruits, so they considered deaths and failures as unnecessary. Thus, they produced more space marines at the cost of quality of those recruits.
The second thing which everybody forgets is that Crusade era had massive rate of attrition, hence huge numbers and reinforcements. It lasted centuries and there were few notable space marines who fought from start to finish. Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.
Experience means little with sufficiently powerful weaponry. Elite Waffen SS troops are just as dead as greens troops when an American 155mm barrage hits. The concept of marines is so flawed to begin with that CSM logically can't be the main antagonist.
Eldar still live normal lives and are going from random person to trained elite warrior. There's a difference between that and what happens with space marines.
I highly doubt ANY of them are personally. It seems we just have very different ideas of what a chaos marine is in the lore as well as the game.
The Perils does make sense though. That's not doing something forbidden, that's having a demon eat your soul which happens to Chaos as much as everyone else.
The thing with Chaos is that they are aligned with denizens of a warp. There is a nice story about Black Legion from Abbadon's personal assassin's perspective. This assassin worked for years to prepare an assassination attempt on rival Nurgle champion. He had ambushed his victim with his pet demon. Unlucky, this champion had figured out how to control this assassin by gaining hold of something very personal to him. So, assassin had redoubled warp based attack, he did not attacked physically as he threw his soul at his opponent to tear it out. Yet, he couldn't kill him and he sensed how denizens of a warp was about to devour his soul. His world went to black and he woke up safely in his room. It seems that his pet demon saw what was happening and it rushed to his master's side. Grabbed his soul with its teeth and dragged it out through immaterium back to his original body.
In tabletop terms, assassin tried to perform close up assassination attempt by using physic power. He rolled 1s or 6s. Instead of exploding or getting possessed, his personal demon instead of performing declared attack, rushed to save soul of its master. Instead of this psyker exploding, it got back to reserve zone.
This is why Chaos should not suffer same perils as Imperial counterparts. They work together with those entities, not against them as Imperial servants do. Furthermore, they have marks of their respective Gods which gives pause for warp residents to attack them. Failing all that, there are countless ways to ensure your safety when you are steeped deeply in heretical sorceries.
You are speaking about Guardians. Aspect Warriors are professional soldiers. Also, my point was that Eldar is so much more gifted than humans are. They naturally are a match for a space marine. Yet, even they take a lot longer to git gut at stuff.
Ernestas wrote: Horus Heresy era space marines were nothing compared to the horror that W40k is. Space marines rolfstomping Primarchs. Chapter Masters being able to fight off Greater Demons. Horus heresy captain is equivalent to W40k fresh space marine. W40k captain on the other hand is equivalent to Horus Heresy Legion's most elite troops.
Such drastic shift in power is due to two things. Experience and training. Contrary to the popular belief, Crusade era space marines sucked. This was due to huge pressure for constant reinforcements and numbers. Crusade Era forces solely relied on legionaries while relegating humans to mere peacekeeping and patrol duties most of the time. Due to this, training of new space marines were short. Most chapters would raise new space marine in 4-5 years. At the end of Crusade, this process would be optimized to 2-3 years. This means that Horus Heresy space marines were less experienced and skilled than w40k Scouts and would get outperformed by them. There was far less failures in recruitment processes, because Crusade era legions had huge demand for constant flow of new recruits, so they considered deaths and failures as unnecessary. Thus, they produced more space marines at the cost of quality of those recruits.
The second thing which everybody forgets is that Crusade era had massive rate of attrition, hence huge numbers and reinforcements. It lasted centuries and there were few notable space marines who fought from start to finish. Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.
Experience means little with sufficiently powerful weaponry. Elite Waffen SS troops are just as dead as greens troops when an American 155mm barrage hits. The concept of marines is so flawed to begin with that CSM logically can't be the main antagonist.
If you think that there is little difference between Elite Waffen SS troops and Volkssturm troops then I have nothing more to say to you.
That is not at all what I said. I said that it takes Eldar Aspect Warriors a long time to train because they go from citizens with little or no experience to elite soldiers.
They also obsess over things and take a long time to do everything.
None of which matters because it doesn't alter the fact that a Crusade Marine is pretty much equal to a 40k era one because they're physically near identical, similarly trained and both have a load of experience.
Chaos should absolutely suffer perils the way Imperials do. Just because you're friends with a Nurgle Demon doesn't mean that the Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh and 'wild' Demons won't eat your soul at the first chance. Any protective sorceries you have just make you better at never rolling a perils which the Imperium also does with things like psychic hoods.
AnomanderRake wrote: One of the worst things to do when designing an army is to make two units that do exactly the same thing but one of them is better than the other. Back in 5e when the Grey Knights came out I could take Strike Squads or Terminators in Troops, or I could take Crowe and get Purifiers in Troops. They all had almost identical statlines and identical equipment, so everyone just took the Purifiers because they did every job either of the other two did better and/or cheaper.
Intercessors aren't a strictly better Troops choice; they have better statlines, true, but they don't have the equipment flexibility or transport options of Tacticals or Scouts, or the advance deployment tricks of Infiltrators or Scouts. They're not a straightforward replacement for anything else that does all the same things better. If you want Chosen to be an alternate Troops choice you might need to give them an identity other than "Chaos Marines but with better stats and more options."
firehockey91 wrote: Does this bother anyone else? CSM have the same stat lines as tacs. Could this be something they address in 9th? I would imagine they should be infused with chaos power and therefore stronger than their loyalist equivalents. Thoughts?
Chaos Space Marines are fundamentally tactical marines who defected to the other side. It makes sense to me that they have identical stats.
And as for infusion of chaos power, most people, space marines included, who get "infused with chaos power" don't become stronger:
Spoiler:
And, of course, the models do represent some degree of "chaos infusion" with horns, faces in the armor, and such.
Martel732 wrote: "If you think that there is little difference between Elite Waffen SS troops and Volkssturm troops then I have nothing more to say to you."
They both turn to soup real good when hit by 155 shells. That's my point.
Yup. Same for an Abrams and an APC. So a rhino and an executioner should have equal stats except for weapons.
Actually everything is equal when hit by a hydrogen bomb so I guess everything should have equal stats.
Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.
After most 40k bolter porn novels I read...my main question is...how da heck does anyone have 10k experience, let alone few decades,lol...to begin with, there are not 'that many' marines out there, and in novels, they are dying left and right. You literally have 'guardsmen' head shooting them with lasguns through lenses.
Then when some xeno invasion comes, you can have chapters and chapters more or less obliterated.
Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.
After most 40k bolter porn novels I read...my main question is...how da heck does anyone have 10k experience, let alone few decades,lol...to begin with, there are not 'that many' marines out there, and in novels, they are dying left and right. You literally have 'guardsmen' head shooting them with lasguns through lenses.
Then when some xeno invasion comes, you can have chapters and chapters more or less obliterated.
Yeah.
Also, to be fair, his own point about the Warp self-defeats. They may have double or triple that amount of experience... or they may have half or a third. Or ten minutes. Maybe some literally still think it's M30
Being experienced also means they're old, over-confident, shell-shocked, bored, and out-of-practice. The whole story of an Astartes' descent into heresy is that s/he wants something for themself, and it's that essential selfishness that both drags them into the embrace of Chaos (because Chaos gives you things) and degrades them. Once in the grip of Chaos there are three outcomes, the first being death. The second being Daemonhood, which means you're hollowed out and have a daemon poured into where your soul used to be. The third is Spawndom, where you're hollowed out and there's no daemon on standby to puppet your body and soul because you weren't interesting enough. Spawndom isn't just a Fleshchange style of explosion, but also a slow degradation as gifts and time work their special magic.
That's not to mention Chaos' essential problem with logistics, discipline, and espirit de corps.
What point? Yeah vets are better in a fire fight, but I'm questioning how valuable that really is. There really shouldn't be anymore CSM anyway. They are a finite resource. The game needs a complete rewrite to accurately show meaningful unit differences like the kind they are taking about imo.
Luke_Prowler wrote:It's threads like these that's always raised the question for me: Why is Chaos Marines the main antagonist/ biggest threat to the Imperium? They seem to be constantly described as ill-disciplined, armed with failing equipment, constantly infighting, have questionable leaders, and their closest allies seem just as quick to screw them over as their enemies.
More on topic, I think bringing back the old marks which allowed you to upgrade a stat for a price, or at least something like that, would give CSM something to let them have an advantage. Ideally, more equipment options as well as others have said. It seems odd that a group described as being very individualistic is more restricted than the regimented Imperial equivalent (and I can sympathize, playing orks)
Yeah, I think there are really three tiers of Chaos Marines in the current rules, and their representation is iffy.
1. CSM, who are basically Tacticals, but without the Doctrines or Chapter bonuses that make Tacticals useful.
2. Chosen, who are just CSM with +1A and Ld and more special weapons at a considerable cost increase. They still suck against Primaris. Whoopee.
3. Cult Marines. Roughly the same level as Primaris, some better than others.
So I'd propose a slight rework that breaks them into four tiers.
1. Renegades, chaff, new hires- you know, the evil equivalent of Tacticals. The current CSM profile.
2. Make 'Veterans' available as a Troops choice, using the current profile of Chosen, but give them a slight buff to be worth the price. Maybe BS2+ (not a huge deal when everyone has re-rolls everywhere). They'd be right in between Tacticals and Primaris in cost, lacking the sheer durability of Primaris but making up for it with equipment and skill.
3. Have Chosen be the marked, elite Veterans. Depending on who they're Marked by might determine the nature of their improvement. These guys would be on par with Primaris, but again still W1, relying on the blessings of their gods (eg an invuln for Tzeentch, or a FNP for Nurgle) along with high skill to be useful.
4. Actual Cult troops. These guys should be scary as feth as far as SM infantry go. All W2 base, and then with various abilities as befitting their gods, putting them all in the 20-25pt range. I mean they're the cream of the crop as far as Chaos soldiery is concerned, they should function the part.
It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose? I'd much rather see Renegades be comparable to Tacticals, Chaos-infused millennia-old veterans be equivalent to Primaris, then have both an intermediate step and a next level.
It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose?
That's a major reason why the introduction of Primaris to the setting is super-dumb.
In regards to the rest of the post: Two things can help the Chaos side of the equation a lot here.
1. Armament for Chosen. Chosen are weirdly limited to 5 models with weapon upgrades (4 plus Sergeant), while the loyalist versions (Sternguard and Vanguard) can arm everybody.
2. Possessed should be better. Hopefully GW will make some new kit of marine-monsters and will pump Possessed to be absolute beasts.
That said, there are already three units off the top of my head that also serve in the Chaos-Marine++/anti-Primaris role. Terminators (with their combi-weapon options), Obliterators, and Spawn (which, the last time I used them were pretty awesome iirc.)
Lastly, it bugs me that Cult Terminators aren't a thing in the core CSM book. If you get those back in there, you open up more possibilities for powerful Chaos Vets.
It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose?
That's a major reason why the introduction of Primaris to the setting is super-dumb.
In regards to the rest of the post: Two things can help the Chaos side of the equation a lot here.
1. Armament for Chosen. Chosen are weirdly limited to 5 models with weapon upgrades (4 plus Sergeant), while the loyalist versions (Sternguard and Vanguard) can arm everybody.
2. Possessed should be better. Hopefully GW will make some new kit of marine-monsters and will pump Possessed to be absolute beasts.
That said, there are already three units off the top of my head that also serve in the Chaos-Marine++/anti-Primaris role. Terminators (with their combi-weapon options), Obliterators, and Spawn (which, the last time I used them were pretty awesome iirc.)
Lastly, it bugs me that Cult Terminators aren't a thing in the core CSM book. If you get those back in there, you open up more possibilities for powerful Chaos Vets.
That's not exactly how Chosen are done. They get 4 Special Weapons or Combi-Weapons, 1 Special or Heavy Weapon, then you get the Champion. It's a bit bizarre though agreed.
Also Primaris being introduced didn't make Cult Marines unappealing, as Cult Marines themselves are overall unappealing. Rememember, none of these suped up dudes have Vet stats or anything, and some of the rules writing is silly. Did you know Plague Marine Bolters aren't counted as Plague Weapons AT ALL but their dinky knives they get one attack with are?
Nurglitch wrote: Being experienced also means they're old, over-confident, shell-shocked, bored, and out-of-practice. The whole story of an Astartes' descent into heresy is that s/he wants something for themself, and it's that essential selfishness that both drags them into the embrace of Chaos (because Chaos gives you things) and degrades them.
Wait, wait. That isn't how most 'descents into heresy' happened with the legions. The first possession of a marine we see in the HH novels happens because a name is being whispered into the voxnet. There was no wanting there, no selfishness. No agency at all in fact. The marine basically just walked into bad warp juice from ancient times, and a daemon he knew nothing about took over.
For the legions in general, most had no idea what they were getting into and its mostly because they're going along with the group/primarch, not because they're being selfish.
And the former case (ignorance yielding accidental corruption/possession) happens regularly in 30k and 40k. From random people looking at weird sigils and going nuts all the way up to Fulgrim picking up a fancy sword on a whim and a daemon taking his body.
There is a complete lack of selfishness or degradation (until afterwards). Just bad luck and wrong place, wrong time scenarios.
Full-on screaming devotion to the chaos powers until they make pact with the supplicant actually comes up relatively rarely, and it mostly happens with idiots who get a bad end in short order.
Contempt for the chaos powers is surprisingly common amongst the 'chaos marines.' Both in the big names (Abaddon, Fabius), and in some cases large chunks of legions (though that varies by author)
That's not to mention Chaos' essential problem with logistics, discipline, and espirit de corps.
Well, the latter is what brought most of them into the chaos fold. The 'warrior lodges' were an expression of espirit de corps.
I dunno, I think it was telling the first marine to be possesed was a member of the lodge. we know little about what went on in the lodges on a daily basis but given they where founded by the word bearers etc. and given the emperor disliked them it stands to reason they engaged in secret practices that did open them to chaos
So I'd propose a slight rework that breaks them into four tiers.
1. Renegades, chaff, new hires- you know, the evil equivalent of Tacticals. The current CSM profile.
2. Make 'Veterans' available as a Troops choice, using the current profile of Chosen, but give them a slight buff to be worth the price. Maybe BS2+ (not a huge deal when everyone has re-rolls everywhere). They'd be right in between Tacticals and Primaris in cost, lacking the sheer durability of Primaris but making up for it with equipment and skill.
3. Have Chosen be the marked, elite Veterans. Depending on who they're Marked by might determine the nature of their improvement. These guys would be on par with Primaris, but again still W1, relying on the blessings of their gods (eg an invuln for Tzeentch, or a FNP for Nurgle) along with high skill to be useful.
4. Actual Cult troops. These guys should be scary as feth as far as SM infantry go. All W2 base, and then with various abilities as befitting their gods, putting them all in the 20-25pt range. I mean they're the cream of the crop as far as Chaos soldiery is concerned, they should function the part.
It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose? I'd much rather see Renegades be comparable to Tacticals, Chaos-infused millennia-old veterans be equivalent to Primaris, then have both an intermediate step and a next level.
Whether you're GW making official boxes or you're a converter who doesn't care about GW much, the tiers need to be really distinct visually and in games. The tiers need to be kind of finessed out especially when we used to have both cult units and more powerful chosen cult units, also bikers/havocs, raptor cult, warp talons, and possessed. It's not like loyalists where all the different units are just differently equipped versions of the same basic marine.
When you buy the kit or put the model on the table the chosen need to look way different than the regular marines, and they have to play way different too. Someone in this thread is already talking about how units shouldn't duplicate and how PAGK, GKTs and Paladins were all too similar, or perhaps regular custodes and their terminator versions.
Really the basic chaff squad should be worse than tacticals. There has to be more space between them and chosen if they're both going to be troops in the same army. Their armor should probably be pretty jank too.
So I'd propose a slight rework that breaks them into four tiers.
1. Renegades, chaff, new hires- you know, the evil equivalent of Tacticals. The current CSM profile.
2. Make 'Veterans' available as a Troops choice, using the current profile of Chosen, but give them a slight buff to be worth the price. Maybe BS2+ (not a huge deal when everyone has re-rolls everywhere). They'd be right in between Tacticals and Primaris in cost, lacking the sheer durability of Primaris but making up for it with equipment and skill.
3. Have Chosen be the marked, elite Veterans. Depending on who they're Marked by might determine the nature of their improvement. These guys would be on par with Primaris, but again still W1, relying on the blessings of their gods (eg an invuln for Tzeentch, or a FNP for Nurgle) along with high skill to be useful.
4. Actual Cult troops. These guys should be scary as feth as far as SM infantry go. All W2 base, and then with various abilities as befitting their gods, putting them all in the 20-25pt range. I mean they're the cream of the crop as far as Chaos soldiery is concerned, they should function the part.
It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose? I'd much rather see Renegades be comparable to Tacticals, Chaos-infused millennia-old veterans be equivalent to Primaris, then have both an intermediate step and a next level.
Whether you're GW making official boxes or you're a converter who doesn't care about GW much, the tiers need to be really distinct visually and in games. The tiers need to be kind of finessed out especially when we used to have both cult units and more powerful chosen cult units, also bikers/havocs, raptor cult, warp talons, and possessed. It's not like loyalists where all the different units are just differently equipped versions of the same basic marine.
When you buy the kit or put the model on the table the chosen need to look way different than the regular marines, and they have to play way different too. Someone in this thread is already talking about how units shouldn't duplicate and how PAGK, GKTs and Paladins were all too similar, or perhaps regular custodes and their terminator versions.
Really the basic chaff squad should be worse than tacticals. There has to be more space between them and chosen if they're both going to be troops in the same army. Their armor should probably be pretty jank too.
GW didn't take chances whatsoever with using different stats for anything, which is a complete shame especially with the garbage wounding table they created too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.
They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.
The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.
IMHO renegades should be a stand alone book by themselves, they could easily be made differant eneugh to fill a nice middle ground
See I don't think that's necessary. It leads to unneeded bloat when it could be stupid simple, and I've discussed this in several threads. Here's how you create it:
1. You consolidate the Angels. You spread the units and upgrades that should be shared.
2. Next, you create 4-5 unique units for each Chapter and the Successors. Remove most of the unnecessary bloat of the Supplements. Each Chapter gets 2 Psyker Powers, 3 Warlord Traits, 4 Relics, 5 Strats
3. Renegades are a few pages section. Here you show how to switch Keywords to make them function. They lose the Chapter's special units and relics (so the generic Marine stuff is good), and they get their own little section of point #2. Huron is treated as a Chapter Master and his merry band of men are treated as White Scars successors (so they have the Advance + Charge and mini Biking/Speeder bonus).
not gonna argue this with you dude. you've beaten this horse to death. suffice to say I disagree.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah, you disagree with removing unnecessary bloat. I'm sure you'll welcome 7th 2.0 with open arms.
The problem with Chaos Marines has always been that there isn't a whole helluva lot of room in a D6 system, and then GW went and threw everything off kilter with Primaris marines. So now we have tons of fluff where Chaos troops have either lots of experience or just plain warp essence infusing them to make them tougher than modern tactical marines despite the stats not showing very mich difference, but now Space Marines got this huge infusion of marines that DO have better stats than standard marines, but Chaos still stays the same. A D8 0r D10 based system could have both Chaos Marines be better than Tacticals, AND Primaris be on par with Chaos or better.
Theoretically while Space Marines are supposed to be a numerically inferior, mechanically superior force, Chaos should be an even larger imbalance in that way, with Lost and the Damned troops to make up the difference.
So like its been stated by others in this thread, a Chaos codex could would have the option for two forces in it reminiscent of the old 2nd Edition codex. 1: A distinctly small amount of better-than-Tactical Chaos marines in a force using Daemon engines and squads of crappy cultists, beastmen, etc would counter the numbers disadvantage. 2: A force that represents a renegade force of marines, where they are more like Loyalists in number and power, with a smaller amount of Chaotic troops and Engines than the first army style.
I know it wouldn't solve all of chaos' problems but I have always thought possessed should kind of be our analog to Primaris and it always struck me odd that possessed are a purely melee unit. Would it not make sense than many chaos marines sharing their body with a daemon would still choose to use ranged weapons, especially since there is already precedent for warp tainted and enhanced weapons. So I had the thought, how interesting would it be if a unit of possessed could choose to replace their horrifying mutations with warp bolters?
Zeruel13 wrote: I know it wouldn't solve all of chaos' problems but I have always thought possessed should kind of be our analog to Primaris and it always struck me odd that possessed are a purely melee unit. Would it not make sense than many chaos marines sharing their body with a daemon would still choose to use ranged weapons, especially since there is already precedent for warp tainted and enhanced weapons. So I had the thought, how interesting would it be if a unit of possessed could choose to replace their horrifying mutations with warp bolters?
The problem with using possessed as our primaris equivalent is that some legions aren't as accepting of chaos and mutations. See Night Lords and Iron Warriors. (Although the iw are perfectly fine with obliterators for some reason. )
CSM lose as much as they gain when they stop being the thing they were created to be and instead become selfish and corrupt. Chaos steals and degraded as often as it gives or enhances.
CSM and tacs should be basically equal. They are. I’m good. And whomever said 30k marines are holistically weaker than 40k both doesn’t understand the lore and what it’s derived from. Space Marine tactical marines are basically medieval sergeants. Space Marine Legionnaires are Roman Imperial soldiers. I don’t think anyone guesses that a Legion is inferior to 5k sergeants... and they shouldn’t... nor are 40k (non-stupid Primaris) marines any better at all than their Crusade equivalents.
Nurglitch wrote: Being experienced also means they're old, over-confident, shell-shocked, bored, and out-of-practice. The whole story of an Astartes' descent into heresy is that s/he wants something for themself, and it's that essential selfishness that both drags them into the embrace of Chaos (because Chaos gives you things) and degrades them.
Wait, wait. That isn't how most 'descents into heresy' happened with the legions. The first possession of a marine we see in the HH novels happens because a name is being whispered into the voxnet. There was no wanting there, no selfishness. No agency at all in fact. The marine basically just walked into bad warp juice from ancient times, and a daemon he knew nothing about took over.
For the legions in general, most had no idea what they were getting into and its mostly because they're going along with the group/primarch, not because they're being selfish.
And the former case (ignorance yielding accidental corruption/possession) happens regularly in 30k and 40k. From random people looking at weird sigils and going nuts all the way up to Fulgrim picking up a fancy sword on a whim and a daemon taking his body.
There is a complete lack of selfishness or degradation (until afterwards). Just bad luck and wrong place, wrong time scenarios.
Full-on screaming devotion to the chaos powers until they make pact with the supplicant actually comes up relatively rarely, and it mostly happens with idiots who get a bad end in short order.
Contempt for the chaos powers is surprisingly common amongst the 'chaos marines.' Both in the big names (Abaddon, Fabius), and in some cases large chunks of legions (though that varies by author)
That's not to mention Chaos' essential problem with logistics, discipline, and espirit de corps.
Well, the latter is what brought most of them into the chaos fold. The 'warrior lodges' were an expression of espirit de corps.
The Warrior Lodges also gave the Traitors something that they wanted, which was a respite from the strictures of their legions, ostensibly to promote cross-rank comradeship, but everyone who was there wanted to be there for their own reasons. Xavier Jubal wanted to be in a secret society, and kept a symbol of that self-centered notion in his personal kit. That was Samus' way-in. Likewise Fulgrim wanted perfection, not in an abstract sense of perfecting Humanity or for the Emperor's Children, but personally. We know that he was unsatisfied with his artwork, and perhaps with his state of being at being able to produce something mechanically perfect but lacking in soul or meaning. Again, Fulgrim's self-centered desires offered a way in. Horus, notably in Horus Rising, notes that the Emperor has retreated to Terra and won't share what he's up to with his loyal legions, and not even Horus despite their closeness. Horus wants that love and relationship, that position of truth with the Emperor of Mankind. After all, Horus knows he's fantastic, so why doesn't the Emperor recognize that? He literally re-enacts Christ's moment of doubt on the cross a that end, asking the Emperor why he has been forsaken, and even gets stapled through the forearm for his trouble (While canonically Christ got stapled through the hands, through the forearm was the actual Roman method, resembling the Greek letter chi more than the English tee).
ADB works this very nicely with Abaddon. How does Abaddon, and other senior Astartes, not get over-taken by Chaos when so many of his contemporaries have become Spawn or Princes? They all want something greater than themselves. Abaddon (Black Legion, Talon of Horus) wants revenge on the God-Emperor, not simply for himself, but for how the Legiones Astartes were mis-used. Ahriman (Unchanged, Exile, Sorcerer) wants to restore his legion, undo his mistakes, and make everything right. Fabius Bile (Primogenitor, Clonelord) wants to lead Humanity into the future, but the element of sticking around tinkering with this New Man is the way Chaos has gotten into his heart and become the mysterious blight that all of his science cannot fix.
So long as your desires are turned outwards, and selfless, you're pretty much immune to Chaos. Once you want something for yourself, once those desires turn inward, then that's the chink your soul's armour that Chaos needs to get in. The Law vs Chaos battle in 40k isn't some nebulous 'good' vs 'evil' it's 'ideal' vs 'self'. Are you scared of being killed? Don't want those weird runes to give you the willies? Find yourself unsatisfied with your rank and position? Maybe it's just a little thing in normal space far away from anything malign that festers in your heart. Maybe it's a stray thought as you're in the vicinity when there's a warp surge. And maybe you've been abused to hell and back as preparation for a daemon finding you to be a suitable host (again, ADB in the short story about the Word Bearers figuring out the hows and whys of possession).
The thing with chaos it is that it is so varied and diverse it is impossible to say anything as a hard rule. Remember, a lot of Chaos worlds were completely indistinguishable for Great Crusade fleets even after years of investigations. Worshipping Chaos does not mean killing everybody. Chaos is all about promoting self identity and it manifests through that. That happens for one doesn't not have to happen for others. For example, some people here said that letting demons inside themselves to be bad. That couldn't be further from the truth for SOME people. Look at Word Bearers. They had formed extremely powerful relationship with their own demons who had bonded into their flesh. It was long, harmonious and steady process where Word Bearer had nurtured his own demon inside his flesh in order to help him to take better control of him. To fuse not only with his body, but his soul and together to become so much more. If you read First Heretic novel you won't see any "MUAHAHA, I"M SO EVIL!" stuff from worshipping Chaos.
Chaos in itself is not force for good or bad. It is force of nature. It is as it is, because everybody in this galaxy is disgusting piece of gak and warp reflects that. It is attracted to people who are pieces of gak like those evil entities in a warp. Chaos in itself is like radiation, it mutates flesh, corrupts. You can't complain that you get radiation poisoning while choosing to stand in contaminated zone yourself. Yet, if you have will and skills necessary, you can work with this Chaos energy and to create things which should be outright impossible.
I also want to emphasize. Everybody, go to youtube and listen to an excellent audio drama of Long War. It will tell exactly how 10 thousand year old, uncorrupted Chaos marine looks like. By uncorrupted I mean, he is not insane, his flesh is not mutated, but rather enhanced by countless boons of Chaos.
Ernestas wrote: Chaos in itself is not force for good or bad. It is force of nature. It is as it is, because everybody in this galaxy is disgusting piece of gak and warp reflects that.
AnomanderRake wrote: One of the worst things to do when designing an army is to make two units that do exactly the same thing but one of them is better than the other. Back in 5e when the Grey Knights came out I could take Strike Squads or Terminators in Troops, or I could take Crowe and get Purifiers in Troops. They all had almost identical statlines and identical equipment, so everyone just took the Purifiers because they did every job either of the other two did better and/or cheaper.
Intercessors aren't a strictly better Troops choice; they have better statlines, true, but they don't have the equipment flexibility or transport options of Tacticals or Scouts, or the advance deployment tricks of Infiltrators or Scouts. They're not a straightforward replacement for anything else that does all the same things better. If you want Chosen to be an alternate Troops choice you might need to give them an identity other than "Chaos Marines but with better stats and more options."
Not a fan of Bolt Action I see.
Certainly not a fan of list-building in Bolt Action. The writers go to all the effort of digging up all kinds of weird and interesting early-war bodged solutions, and writing all the theatre selectors to do weird things with limited resources, and all anyone ever wants to play is the '44-'45 optimized efficient stuff from when the war was a foregone conclusion so they can use their Tiger IIs and late-war Shermans with purpose-built engines instead of eight truck V8s linked to one gearbox.
AegisGrimm wrote: The problem with Chaos Marines has always been that there isn't a whole helluva lot of room in a D6 system, and then GW went and threw everything off kilter with Primaris marines. So now we have tons of fluff where Chaos troops have either lots of experience or just plain warp essence infusing them to make them tougher than modern tactical marines despite the stats not showing very mich difference, but now Space Marines got this huge infusion of marines that DO have better stats than standard marines, but Chaos still stays the same. A D8 0r D10 based system could have both Chaos Marines be better than Tacticals, AND Primaris be on par with Chaos or better.
If we're talking radical overhauls of the game, I think the D6 system tends to be a scapegoat for core mechanics that are too simplistic to differentiate units through anything besides raw combat stats or bloat-inducing special rules.
IMO there should be differences in how Chaos Marines and Tacticals behave on the tabletop, rather than one being five percent more likely to hit than the other through a more granular stat system. If Chaos Marines are comparably skilled but ill-disciplined and difficult to coordinate, then that would suggest that if there were a C&C mechanic a la Epic's activation system, CSM would be harder to manage and keep in line. That would give them a different 'feel' even with comparable (or identical) stats.
I am wondering based on some of the fluff discussions people have brought up in this thread if it might be interesting to rethink CSM as an army where instead of "Space Marines with spikes" they are a few elite squads with their human cultists forming the bulk of the list, sort of like how the 3e Inquisition books let you build an all-GK force if you really wanted to but also encouraged you to use your Stormtroopers to do the grunt-work and take a small GK force to use as melee specialists.
AnomanderRake wrote: I am wondering based on some of the fluff discussions people have brought up in this thread if it might be interesting to rethink CSM as an army where instead of "Space Marines with spikes" they are a few elite squads with their human cultists forming the bulk of the list, sort of like how the 3e Inquisition books let you build an all-GK force if you really wanted to but also encouraged you to use your Stormtroopers to do the grunt-work and take a small GK force to use as melee specialists.
only if i have the ability to make a decent list out of only marines or "fodder".
else it would just be a downgrade to what is now available to chaos.
AnomanderRake wrote: I am wondering based on some of the fluff discussions people have brought up in this thread if it might be interesting to rethink CSM as an army where instead of "Space Marines with spikes" they are a few elite squads with their human cultists forming the bulk of the list, sort of like how the 3e Inquisition books let you build an all-GK force if you really wanted to but also encouraged you to use your Stormtroopers to do the grunt-work and take a small GK force to use as melee specialists.
only if i have the ability to make a decent list out of only marines or "fodder".
else it would just be a downgrade to what is now available to chaos.
Think 6e Tyrant's Legion (side-grade alternate list comp rather than a straight replacement of the Codex).
AegisGrimm wrote: The problem with Chaos Marines has always been that there isn't a whole helluva lot of room in a D6 system, and then GW went and threw everything off kilter with Primaris marines. So now we have tons of fluff where Chaos troops have either lots of experience or just plain warp essence infusing them to make them tougher than modern tactical marines despite the stats not showing very mich difference, but now Space Marines got this huge infusion of marines that DO have better stats than standard marines, but Chaos still stays the same. A D8 0r D10 based system could have both Chaos Marines be better than Tacticals, AND Primaris be on par with Chaos or better.
If we're talking radical overhauls of the game, I think the D6 system tends to be a scapegoat for core mechanics that are too simplistic to differentiate units through anything besides raw combat stats or bloat-inducing special rules.
It is now that they've expanded the system past a 1-10 stats and went straight To Hit for the skills. Not too long ago, that was a different story. Still, it could be expanded more with a higher die, but that means forcing people to buy new dice, ala FFG.
catbarf wrote: IMO there should be differences in how Chaos Marines and Tacticals behave on the tabletop, rather than one being five percent more likely to hit than the other through a more granular stat system. If Chaos Marines are comparably skilled but ill-disciplined and difficult to coordinate, then that would suggest that if there were a C&C mechanic a la Epic's activation system, CSM would be harder to manage and keep in line. That would give them a different 'feel' even with comparable (or identical) stats.
I rather agree. Higher squad cap helps, but not having the same weapon sets would go along with getting that feel along with different rules.
Of course the obligatory Legion Traits should be making a showing as well. Just because they made Iron Warriors too strong 20 years ago doesn't mean they have to keep punishing the entire codex with it at present.
AnomanderRake wrote: I am wondering based on some of the fluff discussions people have brought up in this thread if it might be interesting to rethink CSM as an army where instead of "Space Marines with spikes" they are a few elite squads with their human cultists forming the bulk of the list, sort of like how the 3e Inquisition books let you build an all-GK force if you really wanted to but also encouraged you to use your Stormtroopers to do the grunt-work and take a small GK force to use as melee specialists.
only if i have the ability to make a decent list out of only marines or "fodder".
else it would just be a downgrade to what is now available to chaos.
Think 6e Tyrant's Legion (side-grade alternate list comp rather than a straight replacement of the Codex).
Yes a pure csm (read LEGION) list should play differently from one using cultists but be just as viable. And not just marines with spikes.
These two troop types were very much alike since 2nd.
