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Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Game needs more granularity for sure.

Does it? We're playing a company-scale wargame based on d6s where we frequently need to be able to track 100+ models per side, and where we need to be able to track unaltered humans and fifty-foot stompy robots using the same rules. There are about 350 datasheets in 40k (considering datasheets with the same name in different books, like "Tactical Squad" or "Rhino", to be rotational isomers rather than distinct datasheets). You could claim that everything needs to be unique and have a unique statline, but there are something like 620,000,000 unique statlines possible within the current system, you don't need to fiddle with the numbers/d6s very much to do that (there are 70,000 unique statlines possible within the range of stats current Codexes use just for Troops...). You could claim that everything needs to have unique numbers in every stat, but does that mean everything needs to have a stat number somewhere from 1 to 350?

Is there a point at which you're just making the game more complicated for the sake of making it more complicated and it doesn't really help much?

We're not there yet.

Better stat granularity with D8s or D10s would be preferred by me at this point.

Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.

The Salt Mine wrote:
Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.

The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.

The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.

You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.

The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.

You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.

Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.

pm713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.

The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.

You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.

Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.

Almost as though it would just be the really good Veterans left as the bulk of their forces like it should've been in the first place! Big think time

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.

The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.

You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.

Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.

Almost as though it would just be the really good Veterans left as the bulk of their forces like it should've been in the first place! Big think time

Almost as if most of what you see would be post heresy traitors with breaking equipment.

Dark Mech exists, and is much more willing to innovate than the Ad Mech.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.

The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.

You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.

Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.

Almost as though it would just be the really good Veterans left as the bulk of their forces like it should've been in the first place! Big think time

Almost as if most of what you see would be post heresy traitors with breaking equipment.

You mean the ones that should be organized like...Codex Marines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nah you're right. Makes sense their Vanguard Vets disappeared and all became Raptors with one less attack!

pelicaniforce wrote:
Two of the biggest things we know about loyalist marines is that they have practice and drills 16 hours a day, and that they have a very formal schedule for when they qualify to be in what squad.

When they hit Chaos all that discipline goes out the window. The best marines in a squad will just leave and start their own squad, or try to take one over. Meanwhile the daily drills turn into blood sports and self indulgence. They’ll have two groups, one that are go-getters and chosen, and one that are in some ways actually less good than regular tacticals.

And we also know that the chaos legions that are still organized enough make new marines. They use barbarous practices and treat their recruits terribly and expect them to fight their ways up. So it seems like the original legions would also have two types of marine, on one hand some warp-infused heresy era legionnaires and on the other hand some crudely made reinforcements with malfunctioning organs and terrible training.

Chaos forces are mashed up with each other anyway. At the siege of Vraks the world eaters were lead by a berserker who had actually been from a loyalist successor chapter and had gotten captured then fought his way into commanding the warband. Originally the warband were world eaters, but half his berserkers were actually from a different renegade chapter but whom he’d absorbed and had gotten to submit to the nails surgery.

We also have ADBs long post about what a war band is like.

It seems a lot like renegades and traitor legions are very similar and blended, and that both of them have not only extremely powerful chosen but also scrub-tier marines.

^ Very much this.

CSMs are highly varied, and already have tiers of "veteranship" in the form of Chosen, Terminators, Cult Marines, Possessed, etc. Basic CSM's are roughly the equivalent of Tacticals, except less regimented(options for chainswords and more flexibility with Heavy/Specials) and less disciplined (no AKSKNF).

I prefer the older balance a bit more where ATSKNF was more powerful, but CSMs had the option of taking Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword. Seems like GW is in the business of removing options from units though :/

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Personally Ive always thought renegades should be a supplement for the codex space marines. Chaos space marines should only deal with the original legions. Wouldn't be super hard either just change all imperium keywords with chaos.

The only thing with that is the legions are far from pure HH era marines, a large chunk of the current legions are converts or recruits way after the HH, if they weren’t getting new “recruits” most of the legions would be nearly extinct.

You need to factor in Warp Time dilation shenanigans. A large chunk of the traitor marines might only be a thousand years "real time" since the heresy.

Even with that most of the originals will be gone due to their constant infighting, mutations and general demon hazards.

Almost as though it would just be the really good Veterans left as the bulk of their forces like it should've been in the first place! Big think time

Almost as if most of what you see would be post heresy traitors with breaking equipment.

Never heard of Darwin have we?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Never heard of Darwin have we?

Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Never heard of Darwin have we?

Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!

Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Never heard of Darwin have we?

Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!

Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.

except thats not how reality works, if that was how reality worked you'd see every long war end with the militaries in every country being super elite. instead the quality goes down hill as supply and recruitment becomes problemtic, recruitment standards reduce and people are thrown into combat with a fraction of the training that the peace time army had received. we know chaos warbands are still recruiting, we also can assume given the over all break down of the legions into renegade warbands means their training regimes are less through. So yes the chaos veterns are proably very skilled. which definatly should be represented, Chosen should be absolutely terrifying, and proably, outside of characters, the most deadly marines out there, they shouldn't be on par with veterns, they should be honorguard level scary, but yeah the rank and file CSMs, should be about on par with tac marines but less disiplined etc. but those shou;dn't be seen as representing heresy era CSMs, but rather those recruited since the heresy.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Never heard of Darwin have we?

Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!

Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.

As BrianDavion explains, all that does is get you a teeny-tiny little army of irreplaceable elites which can't wage an effective war. You need replacements and/or mooks to do the tasks the Vets are too wily to do themselves. A Chaos warband is a thriving ecosystem of shifting hierarchies and levels of experience, and at the bottom of the CSMs you have comparatively disorganized, less motivated, and poorly equipped regulars.

As I see it, the best solution would be to make Chosen a Troops choice, alongside a points adjustment so that Chosen, regular CSMs and Cultists all remain viable choices. At present, the CSM codex has far too many things stuffed into the Elite slot.

If you want to represent a warband of 10,000 year old Legionary veterans, you take all Chosen as your Troops. If you want a ragtag band of piratical renegades, you take regular CSMs. If you want a Legion warband that has filled its attrition-depleted ranks with new recruits, you take a mix of the two.

To me, regular CSMs represent what used (back in the RT era) to be termed 'Chaos Renegades' - guys in power armour who might be undisciplined or under-equipped Chaos-worshipping Space Marines, or might be human space pirates with looted armour and weapons, or some local warlord's or cult leader's custom augmented/genhanced enforcers. In any case, they're not quite as good as 'proper' Astartes, but they're elite compared to Cultists. Meanwhile, the true Chaos Legionnaires are a separate (and terrifyingly powerful) force of ancient nigh-immortal veterans.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Never heard of Darwin have we?

Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!

Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.

except thats not how reality works, if that was how reality worked you'd see every long war end with the militaries in every country being super elite. instead the quality goes down hill as supply and recruitment becomes problemtic, recruitment standards reduce and people are thrown into combat with a fraction of the training that the peace time army had received. we know chaos warbands are still recruiting, we also can assume given the over all break down of the legions into renegade warbands means their training regimes are less through. So yes the chaos veterns are proably very skilled. which definatly should be represented, Chosen should be absolutely terrifying, and proably, outside of characters, the most deadly marines out there, they shouldn't be on par with veterns, they should be honorguard level scary, but yeah the rank and file CSMs, should be about on par with tac marines but less disiplined etc. but those shou;dn't be seen as representing heresy era CSMs, but rather those recruited since the heresy.

That's exactly what I'm arguing. Chosen should be a superior, more expensive troops choice just like intercessors are for loyalists. The basic troops choice is the most important building block of an army. I believe we're in agreement. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".

 Insectum7 wrote:
Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".

No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.

By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Never heard of Darwin have we?

Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!

Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.

except thats not how reality works, if that was how reality worked you'd see every long war end with the militaries in every country being super elite. instead the quality goes down hill as supply and recruitment becomes problemtic, recruitment standards reduce and people are thrown into combat with a fraction of the training that the peace time army had received. we know chaos warbands are still recruiting, we also can assume given the over all break down of the legions into renegade warbands means their training regimes are less through. So yes the chaos veterns are proably very skilled. which definatly should be represented, Chosen should be absolutely terrifying, and proably, outside of characters, the most deadly marines out there, they shouldn't be on par with veterns, they should be honorguard level scary, but yeah the rank and file CSMs, should be about on par with tac marines but less disiplined etc. but those shou;dn't be seen as representing heresy era CSMs, but rather those recruited since the heresy.

That's exactly what I'm arguing. Chosen should be a superior, more expensive troops choice just like intercessors are for loyalists. The basic troops choice is the most important building block of an army. I believe we're in agreement. Correct me if I'm wrong.

One of the worst things to do when designing an army is to make two units that do exactly the same thing but one of them is better than the other. Back in 5e when the Grey Knights came out I could take Strike Squads or Terminators in Troops, or I could take Crowe and get Purifiers in Troops. They all had almost identical statlines and identical equipment, so everyone just took the Purifiers because they did every job either of the other two did better and/or cheaper.

Intercessors aren't a strictly better Troops choice; they have better statlines, true, but they don't have the equipment flexibility or transport options of Tacticals or Scouts, or the advance deployment tricks of Infiltrators or Scouts. They're not a straightforward replacement for anything else that does all the same things better. If you want Chosen to be an alternate Troops choice you might need to give them an identity other than "Chaos Marines but with better stats and more options."

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Never heard of Darwin have we?

Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!

Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.

As BrianDavion explains, all that does is get you a teeny-tiny little army of irreplaceable elites which can't wage an effective war. You need replacements and/or mooks to do the tasks the Vets are too wily to do themselves. A Chaos warband is a thriving ecosystem of shifting hierarchies and levels of experience, and at the bottom of the CSMs you have comparatively disorganized, less motivated, and poorly equipped regulars.

Thats because Chaos Legions never create effective campaigns unless they're all united in the first place, which seems to happen a good amount anyway, so what's your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".

No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.

By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.

Don't forget Deathwatch Vets...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Never heard of Darwin have we?

Are you going to raise an army by murdering all of your own soldiers? Good plan!

Boy THAT'S a good understanding of the concept of survival of the fittest. The concept is, as slayer fan initially pointed out, that after years of fighting and attrition only the strongest and most skilled warriors are left. Thus veterans who should have veteran stats. Newly created csm or renegades would have inferior stats but cost less points. But the legions should have the option of taking superior troops for an added cost reflecting the experience they've gained over millennia of war. This would be in lieu of getting something like doctrines because csm don't have time to constantly be doing drills. Because they're too busy fighting the long war.

except thats not how reality works, if that was how reality worked you'd see every long war end with the militaries in every country being super elite. instead the quality goes down hill as supply and recruitment becomes problemtic, recruitment standards reduce and people are thrown into combat with a fraction of the training that the peace time army had received. we know chaos warbands are still recruiting, we also can assume given the over all break down of the legions into renegade warbands means their training regimes are less through. So yes the chaos veterns are proably very skilled. which definatly should be represented, Chosen should be absolutely terrifying, and proably, outside of characters, the most deadly marines out there, they shouldn't be on par with veterns, they should be honorguard level scary, but yeah the rank and file CSMs, should be about on par with tac marines but less disiplined etc. but those shou;dn't be seen as representing heresy era CSMs, but rather those recruited since the heresy.

That's exactly what I'm arguing. Chosen should be a superior, more expensive troops choice just like intercessors are for loyalists. The basic troops choice is the most important building block of an army. I believe we're in agreement. Correct me if I'm wrong.

One of the worst things to do when designing an army is to make two units that do exactly the same thing but one of them is better than the other. Back in 5e when the Grey Knights came out I could take Strike Squads or Terminators in Troops, or I could take Crowe and get Purifiers in Troops. They all had almost identical statlines and identical equipment, so everyone just took the Purifiers because they did every job either of the other two did better and/or cheaper.

Intercessors aren't a strictly better Troops choice; they have better statlines, true, but they don't have the equipment flexibility or transport options of Tacticals or Scouts, or the advance deployment tricks of Infiltrators or Scouts. They're not a straightforward replacement for anything else that does all the same things better. If you want Chosen to be an alternate Troops choice you might need to give them an identity other than "Chaos Marines but with better stats and more options."

IOW you're correct, so let's just toss the Chaos Marine entry entirely.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".

No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.

By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.

Tacs and Intercessors are "rank and file" within chapter organization. CSM are the same role within traitor legions. This should neither be new information, nor difficult to comprehend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Thats because Chaos Legions never create effective campaigns unless they're all united in the first place, which seems to happen a good amount anyway, so what's your point?

And to make the numbers, a considerable amount of non-vets are included.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".

No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.

By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.

Tacs and Intercessors are "rank and file" within chapter organization. CSM are the same role within traitor legions. This should neither be new information, nor difficult to comprehend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Thats because Chaos Legions never create effective campaigns unless they're all united in the first place, which seems to happen a good amount anyway, so what's your point?

And to make the numbers, a considerable amount of non-vets are included.

"To make the numbers"
What numbers are you referring to? Do Chaos Legions need to have as many dudes as Loyalists to create an effective campaign?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".

No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.

Intercessor "veterans" are a stratagem, not an option.

By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.

Intercessors fill a "troop" slot. They're an elite troop, certainly, but they're not natively veterans--that's a stratagem in and of itself.
Now, if you want to argue that Chosen should be better or a stratagem? That's an argument to make.


Arguably in any regards, we shouldn't have "Troop" Space Marines. But GW played it too safe this edition by not making armies reliably able to utilize things like the Vanguard Detachments.

It's threads like these that's always raised the question for me: Why is Chaos Marines the main antagonist/ biggest threat to the Imperium? They seem to be constantly described as ill-disciplined, armed with failing equipment, constantly infighting, have questionable leaders, and their closest allies seem just as quick to screw them over as their enemies.

More on topic, I think bringing back the old marks which allowed you to upgrade a stat for a price, or at least something like that, would give CSM something to let them have an advantage. Ideally, more equipment options as well as others have said. It seems odd that a group described as being very individualistic is more restricted than the regimented Imperial equivalent (and I can sympathize, playing orks)

 Kanluwen wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Intercessors are rank and file troops, Chosen are not. That's why they're called "Chosen".

No space marine is "rank and file" even if they fill a troops slot. Intercessor veterans are also troops.

Intercessor "veterans" are a stratagem, not an option.

By that logic gk terminators and Custodian Guards are also "rank and file ". Surely you're not making that argument? Elite armies obviously have elite troops.

Intercessors fill a "troop" slot. They're an elite troop, certainly, but they're not natively veterans--that's a stratagem in and of itself.
Now, if you want to argue that Chosen should be better or a stratagem? That's an argument to make.


Arguably in any regards, we shouldn't have "Troop" Space Marines. But GW played it too safe this edition by not making armies reliably able to utilize things like the Vanguard Detachments.

Well we have to work with the mechanics gw chose for list construction so either units like chosen should be able to be taken as troops or armies like space marines, custodes, gk, and deathwatch should be limited to taking detachments that don't require troops because they don't have anything that qualifies as "basic rank and file ".

Honestly I think this just boils down to basic loyalist logic of "we can have 2w, 2 attack, with 30 inch range weapons troops but csm can't have 1w, 2 attack, 24 inch range weapons troops BECAUSE REASONS".

Horus Heresy era space marines were nothing compared to the horror that W40k is. Space marines rolfstomping Primarchs. Chapter Masters being able to fight off Greater Demons. Horus heresy captain is equivalent to W40k fresh space marine. W40k captain on the other hand is equivalent to Horus Heresy Legion's most elite troops.

Such drastic shift in power is due to two things. Experience and training. Contrary to the popular belief, Crusade era space marines sucked. This was due to huge pressure for constant reinforcements and numbers. Crusade Era forces solely relied on legionaries while relegating humans to mere peacekeeping and patrol duties most of the time. Due to this, training of new space marines were short. Most chapters would raise new space marine in 4-5 years. At the end of Crusade, this process would be optimized to 2-3 years. This means that Horus Heresy space marines were less experienced and skilled than w40k Scouts and would get outperformed by them. There was far less failures in recruitment processes, because Crusade era legions had huge demand for constant flow of new recruits, so they considered deaths and failures as unnecessary. Thus, they produced more space marines at the cost of quality of those recruits.

The second thing which everybody forgets is that Crusade era had massive rate of attrition, hence huge numbers and reinforcements. It lasted centuries and there were few notable space marines who fought from start to finish. Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.

 Duskweaver wrote:
If you want a Legion warband that has filled its attrition-depleted ranks with new recruits, you take a mix of the two.

To me, regular CSMs represent what used (back in the RT era) to be termed 'Chaos Renegades' - guys in power armour who might be undisciplined or under-equipped Chaos-worshipping Space Marines, or might be human space pirates with looted armour and weapons, or some local warlord's or cult leader's custom augmented/genhanced enforcers. In any case, they're not quite as good as 'proper' Astartes, but they're elite compared to Cultists. Meanwhile, the true Chaos Legionnaires are a separate (and terrifyingly powerful) force of ancient nigh-immortal veterans.

Absolutely, if you have a game or comic with ninjas, there are either lots of them who are just goons for someone else and aren’t that strong, or there are one or two ninjas who are terrifying and magical. There should be rules both for chaos troops who are actually worse than proper marines, as well as chosen who are better.

I think like Ld 6 or 5, bs 4+.

Then you’d have chosen with really good stats and equipment. Chaos armor for a 2+, some 2+ ws and maybe bs.

It's really not. Very few if any Chaos Marines have 10k years of experience and it seems ridiculous to claim that Crusade Marines suck. They have the same enhancements but without it being reused for ten thousand years and while they train less a lot of that is just because they didn't have to spend five years getting indoctrinated.

Even Eldar spends more than 2 years to become an aspect warrior. I would question how actually good is a freshly baked superhuman who not only has to spend those two years in actually getting those implants, but also growing into maturity and coming to understand his new superhuman nature. Even our more elite formations train for longer. That is excluding painful, complicated operations which takes years to fully gain root and mature within host bodies. We also do not break down individual and rebuild him into a weapon.

Of course not every Chaos Marine is 10 thousand years old, but this is the point. Some of them are. Actually quite a bit of them are that damn old, because Chaos sees extreme value in them. This is why Eliphas keeps reincarnating into new space marine bodies and keeps returning like some Saturday cartoon villain. Furthermore, such pacts are actually common amongst forces of Chaos, because you do not live for so long without knowing when to retreat and which bargains to strike with Gods.


I do not know about others, but I like my Chaos Space marines to be nightmarish superhumans who lived far beyond comprehension of mortal minds. Are of unmatched experience and skill while at the same time having simply horrifying abilities which they had earned through their millenia of service. I like to imagine every veteran being like Kharn, Typhus, Lucius or Ahrimar. One is rotting corpse who can soak up direct battle cannon hits and keep on moving, fighting and regenerating. Others like Lucius who keep resurrecting over and over until you kill it in ritualistic, blessed fashion. It makes sense after all. Yet, in general I find GW treatment of Chaos to be quite poor. We got just few of really cool units like Defilers, Helldrakes, Chaos Talons, Obliterators. Yet, at the same time Chaos can feel like spikey space marine version which simply doesn't make sense. Chaos has much more advanced tech than Imperium in a lot of areas. Chaos has in general much more experienced warriors. Chaos has no taboo or restriction in accessing warp, yet it still gets same perils of the warp throw. A LOT of stuff about Chaos doesn't make sense.