Chaos space marines = tactical marines?

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**AnomanderRake**

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
One of the worst things to do when designing an army is to make two units that do exactly the same thing but one of them is better than the other. Back in 5e when the Grey Knights came out I could take Strike Squads or Terminators in Troops, or I could take Crowe and get Purifiers in Troops. They all had almost identical statlines and identical equipment, so everyone just took the Purifiers because they did every job either of the other two did better and/or cheaper.

Intercessors aren't a strictly better Troops choice; they have better statlines, true, but they don't have the equipment flexibility or transport options of Tacticals or Scouts, or the advance deployment tricks of Infiltrators or Scouts. They're not a straightforward replacement for anything else that does all the same things better. If you want Chosen to be an alternate Troops choice you might need to give them an identity other than "Chaos Marines but with better stats and more options."

Not a fan of Bolt Action I see.

Certainly not a fan of list-building in Bolt Action. The writers go to all the effort of digging up all kinds of weird and interesting early-war bodged solutions, and writing all the theatre selectors to do weird things with limited resources, and all anyone ever wants to play is the '44-'45 optimized efficient stuff from when the war was a foregone conclusion so they can use their Tiger IIs and late-war Shermans with purpose-built engines instead of eight truck V8s linked to one gearbox.

**catbarf**

AegisGrimm wrote:
The problem with Chaos Marines has always been that there isn't a whole helluva lot of room in a D6 system, and then GW went and threw everything off kilter with Primaris marines. So now we have tons of fluff where Chaos troops have either lots of experience or just plain warp essence infusing them to make them tougher than modern tactical marines despite the stats not showing very mich difference, but now Space Marines got this huge infusion of marines that DO have better stats than standard marines, but Chaos still stays the same. A D8 0r D10 based system could have both Chaos Marines be better than Tacticals, AND Primaris be on par with Chaos or better.

If we're talking radical overhauls of the game, I think the D6 system tends to be a scapegoat for core mechanics that are too simplistic to differentiate units through anything besides raw combat stats or bloat-inducing special rules.

IMO there should be differences in how Chaos Marines and Tacticals behave on the tabletop, rather than one being five percent more likely to hit than the other through a more granular stat system. If Chaos Marines are comparably skilled but ill-disciplined and difficult to coordinate, then that would suggest that if there were a C&C mechanic a la Epic's activation system, CSM would be harder to manage and keep in line. That would give them a different 'feel' even with comparable (or identical) stats.

**AnomanderRake**

I am wondering based on some of the fluff discussions people have brought up in this thread if it might be interesting to rethink CSM as an army where instead of "Space Marines with spikes" they are a few elite squads with their human cultists forming the bulk of the list, sort of like how the 3e Inquisition books let you build an all-GK force if you really wanted to but also encouraged you to use your Stormtroopers to do the grunt-work and take a small GK force to use as melee specialists.

**Not Online!!!**

AnomanderRake wrote:
I am wondering based on some of the fluff discussions people have brought up in this thread if it might be interesting to rethink CSM as an army where instead of "Space Marines with spikes" they are a few elite squads with their human cultists forming the bulk of the list, sort of like how the 3e Inquisition books let you build an all-GK force if you really wanted to but also encouraged you to use your Stormtroopers to do the grunt-work and take a small GK force to use as melee specialists.

only if i have the ability to make a decent list out of only marines or "fodder".
else it would just be a downgrade to what is now available to chaos.

**AnomanderRake**

Not Online!!! wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
I am wondering based on some of the fluff discussions people have brought up in this thread if it might be interesting to rethink CSM as an army where instead of "Space Marines with spikes" they are a few elite squads with their human cultists forming the bulk of the list, sort of like how the 3e Inquisition books let you build an all-GK force if you really wanted to but also encouraged you to use your Stormtroopers to do the grunt-work and take a small GK force to use as melee specialists.

only if i have the ability to make a decent list out of only marines or "fodder".
else it would just be a downgrade to what is now available to chaos.

Think 6e Tyrant's Legion (side-grade alternate list comp rather than a straight replacement of the Codex).

**Charistoph**

catbarf wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
The problem with Chaos Marines has always been that there isn't a whole helluva lot of room in a D6 system, and then GW went and threw everything off kilter with Primaris marines. So now we have tons of fluff where Chaos troops have either lots of experience or just plain warp essence infusing them to make them tougher than modern tactical marines despite the stats not showing very mich difference, but now Space Marines got this huge infusion of marines that DO have better stats than standard marines, but Chaos still stays the same. A D8 0r D10 based system could have both Chaos Marines be better than Tacticals, AND Primaris be on par with Chaos or better.

If we're talking radical overhauls of the game, I think the D6 system tends to be a scapegoat for core mechanics that are too simplistic to differentiate units through anything besides raw combat stats or bloat-inducing special rules.

It is now that they've expanded the system past a 1-10 stats and went straight To Hit for the skills. Not too long ago, that was a different story. Still, it could be expanded more with a higher die, but that means forcing people to buy new dice, ala FFG.

catbarf wrote:
IMO there should be differences in how Chaos Marines and Tacticals behave on the tabletop, rather than one being five percent more likely to hit than the other through a more granular stat system. If Chaos Marines are comparably skilled but ill-disciplined and difficult to coordinate, then that would suggest that if there were a C&C mechanic a la Epic's activation system, CSM would be harder to manage and keep in line. That would give them a different 'feel' even with comparable (or identical) stats.

I rather agree. Higher squad cap helps, but not having the same weapon sets would go along with getting that feel along with different rules.

Of course the obligatory Legion Traits should be making a showing as well. Just because they made Iron Warriors too strong 20 years ago doesn't mean they have to keep punishing the entire codex with it at present.

**Gadzilla666**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
I am wondering based on some of the fluff discussions people have brought up in this thread if it might be interesting to rethink CSM as an army where instead of "Space Marines with spikes" they are a few elite squads with their human cultists forming the bulk of the list, sort of like how the 3e Inquisition books let you build an all-GK force if you really wanted to but also encouraged you to use your Stormtroopers to do the grunt-work and take a small GK force to use as melee specialists.

only if i have the ability to make a decent list out of only marines or "fodder".
else it would just be a downgrade to what is now available to chaos.

Think 6e Tyrant's Legion (side-grade alternate list comp rather than a straight replacement of the Codex).

Yes a pure csm (read LEGION) list should play differently from one using cultists but be just as viable. And not just marines with spikes.