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Does this bother anyone else? CSM have the same stat lines as tacs. Could this be something they address in 9th? I would imagine they should be infused with chaos power and therefore stronger than their loyalist equivalents. Thoughts?

Stat granularity. A Tactical Marine is approximately a Guardsman with +1 to every stat (and +2 to Armour). Is a Chaos Marine suffused with enough Chaos power that they're somehow as much better at something than a Tactical Marine than a Tactical Marine is better than a Guardsman?

I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.

Berzerkers, plague marines, rubrics, noise marines, possessed.

Considering chaos took a Primarchs and put him on the same level as the emperor I would argue yes, they should have some sort of boon that loyalists don’t. Either an extra wound a la primaris or for real flavor, a boon from their dedicated god that isn’t just a 10pt banner.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.

They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.

firehockey91 wrote:
Considering chaos took a Primarchs and put him on the same level as the emperor I would argue yes, they should have some sort of boon that loyalists don’t. Either an extra wound a la primaris or for real flavor, a boon from their dedicated god that isn’t just a 10pt banner.

yeah except that wasn't what chaos does to everyone Horus was A: a special case. B: I don't think really was in par with the emperor. I mean the story has always been told the Emperor held back hoping to dissuade Horus from his fall, and once he realized that was impossiable and cut loose Horus was obliterated.

That’s understandable but there’s also Sanguinius ex machine there as well. And Horus was significantly more powerful than he was pre corruption so it would make some sense to give followers of specific gods a minor boost to a stat or ability that represents chaos power infusion

Don't worry, loyalist are becoming primaris, so they'll be better.

I hope so. I’d like to see supplements for chaos much the way loyalists got. F&F is a good start. I would just like to see basic CSMs have that chaos representation in some way

BrianDavion wrote:

firehockey91 wrote:
Considering chaos took a Primarchs and put him on the same level as the emperor I would argue yes, they should have some sort of boon that loyalists don’t. Either an extra wound a la primaris or for real flavor, a boon from their dedicated god that isn’t just a 10pt banner.

yeah except that wasn't what chaos does to everyone Horus was A: a special case. B: I don't think really was in par with the emperor. I mean the story has always been told the Emperor held back hoping to dissuade Horus from his fall, and once he realized that was impossiable and cut loose Horus was obliterated.

I know this has been somewhat retconned, but I think Horus got on par to what the Emperor was perceived as, no one had just really realized just how massively powerful a psyker the Emperor was.

Back in the days, in one of the explanations for the fight, the Emperor truly got his *ss handed to him by Horus, and only managed to win because he let his glimmer down and showed his gene-son what he truly looked like beneath all the warp magic (a frail old human), thus throwing Horus off guard just long enough for the Emperor to get through with a last, desperate full frontal blast with all he ever had.

 Aestas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.

They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.

The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.

Agreed. Csm should be veterans. And give the legions their respective troops back. Raptors for night lords terminators for black legion etc.

Back in the old days CSM were Tacticals that had +1 attack (due to having Bolt Pistol, Bolter AND a Chainsword) that could be in 20 man blobs.

I think even now they still have the bonus of getting Chainswords where Tacticals don't, right? Considering Morale literally doesn't affect small Marine squads and they also have ATSKNF, would +1 Ld on CSM be that egregious?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.

They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.

The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.

IMHO renegades should be a stand alone book by themselves, they could easily be made differant eneugh to fill a nice middle ground

yep, it's time to get rid of Chaos Space Marines as we know them and break them into Veterans (current chosen) and Renegades (being what CSM are right now)

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.

They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.

The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.

IMHO renegades should be a stand alone book by themselves, they could easily be made differant eneugh to fill a nice middle ground

See I don't think that's necessary. It leads to unneeded bloat when it could be stupid simple, and I've discussed this in several threads. Here's how you create it:
1. You consolidate the Angels. You spread the units and upgrades that should be shared.
2. Next, you create 4-5 unique units for each Chapter and the Successors. Remove most of the unnecessary bloat of the Supplements. Each Chapter gets 2 Psyker Powers, 3 Warlord Traits, 4 Relics, 5 Strats
3. Renegades are a few pages section. Here you show how to switch Keywords to make them function. They lose the Chapter's special units and relics (so the generic Marine stuff is good), and they get their own little section of point #2. Huron is treated as a Chapter Master and his merry band of men are treated as White Scars successors (so they have the Advance + Charge and mini Biking/Speeder bonus).

We already have a Renegade Space Marine Codex, it's the green one.

Two of the biggest things we know about loyalist marines is that they have practice and drills 16 hours a day, and that they have a very formal schedule for when they qualify to be in what squad.

When they hit Chaos all that discipline goes out the window. The best marines in a squad will just leave and start their own squad, or try to take one over. Meanwhile the daily drills turn into blood sports and self indulgence. They’ll have two groups, one that are go-getters and chosen, and one that are in some ways actually less good than regular tacticals.

And we also know that the chaos legions that are still organized enough make new marines. They use barbarous practices and treat their recruits terribly and expect them to fight their ways up. So it seems like the original legions would also have two types of marine, on one hand some warp-infused heresy era legionnaires and on the other hand some crudely made reinforcements with malfunctioning organs and terrible training.

Chaos forces are mashed up with each other anyway. At the siege of Vraks the world eaters were lead by a berserker who had actually been from a loyalist successor chapter and had gotten captured then fought his way into commanding the warband. Originally the warband were world eaters, but half his berserkers were actually from a different renegade chapter but whom he’d absorbed and had gotten to submit to the nails surgery.

We also have ADBs long post about what a war band is like.

It seems a lot like renegades and traitor legions are very similar and blended, and that both of them have not only extremely powerful chosen but also scrub-tier marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.

They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.

The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.

IMHO renegades should be a stand alone book by themselves, they could easily be made differant eneugh to fill a nice middle ground

See I don't think that's necessary. It leads to unneeded bloat when it could be stupid simple, and I've discussed this in several threads. Here's how you create it:
1. You consolidate the Angels. You spread the units and upgrades that should be shared.
2. Next, you create 4-5 unique units for each Chapter and the Successors. Remove most of the unnecessary bloat of the Supplements. Each Chapter gets 2 Psyker Powers, 3 Warlord Traits, 4 Relics, 5 Strats
3. Renegades are a few pages section. Here you show how to switch Keywords to make them function. They lose the Chapter's special units and relics (so the generic Marine stuff is good), and they get their own little section of point #2. Huron is treated as a Chapter Master and his merry band of men are treated as White Scars successors (so they have the Advance + Charge and mini Biking/Speeder bonus).

\

not gonna argue this with you dude. you've beaten this horse to death. suffice to say I disagree.

Cool

Game needs more granularity for sure.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I've been saying that Chosen should've been the default choice to begin with and make everything else Vet stats minimum so we have Legions proper. The insistence of trying to make it tackle Renegades has always brought it down significantly.

They should just do something akin to 30k's Rites of War: Pride of the Legion. If your army is based around one of the traitor legions, all your guys are though old brutes (chosen) filled with millennia of experience and chaos powers. If not you are playing traitors or renegades and your default troops are tacticals.

The main vanilla codex should be handling Renegades.

IMHO renegades should be a stand alone book by themselves, they could easily be made differant eneugh to fill a nice middle ground

See I don't think that's necessary. It leads to unneeded bloat when it could be stupid simple, and I've discussed this in several threads. Here's how you create it:
1. You consolidate the Angels. You spread the units and upgrades that should be shared.
2. Next, you create 4-5 unique units for each Chapter and the Successors. Remove most of the unnecessary bloat of the Supplements. Each Chapter gets 2 Psyker Powers, 3 Warlord Traits, 4 Relics, 5 Strats
3. Renegades are a few pages section. Here you show how to switch Keywords to make them function. They lose the Chapter's special units and relics (so the generic Marine stuff is good), and they get their own little section of point #2. Huron is treated as a Chapter Master and his merry band of men are treated as White Scars successors (so they have the Advance + Charge and mini Biking/Speeder bonus).

\

not gonna argue this with you dude. you've beaten this horse to death. suffice to say I disagree.

Yeah, you disagree with removing unnecessary bloat. I'm sure you'll welcome 7th 2.0 with open arms.

I hope that baseline CSM will become cheap but crap but with an option buy upgrades for them to make them way better than even loyalist veterans.

BA don't need their own codex. 90% of it is redundant. The meaningless lore can go to the black library.

firehockey91 wrote:
Does this bother anyone else? CSM have the same stat lines as tacs. Could this be something they address in 9th? I would imagine they should be infused with chaos power and therefore stronger than their loyalist equivalents. Thoughts?

Wow, you noticed this now? These two troop types were very much alike since 2nd.

Martel732 wrote:
Game needs more granularity for sure.

Does it? We're playing a company-scale wargame based on d6s where we frequently need to be able to track 100+ models per side, and where we need to be able to track unaltered humans and fifty-foot stompy robots using the same rules. There are about 350 datasheets in 40k (considering datasheets with the same name in different books, like "Tactical Squad" or "Rhino", to be rotational isomers rather than distinct datasheets). You could claim that everything needs to be unique and have a unique statline, but there are something like 620,000,000 unique statlines possible within the current system, you don't need to fiddle with the numbers/d6s very much to do that (there are 70,000 unique statlines possible within the range of stats current Codexes use just for Troops...). You could claim that everything needs to have unique numbers in every stat, but does that mean everything needs to have a stat number somewhere from 1 to 350?

Is there a point at which you're just making the game more complicated for the sake of making it more complicated and it doesn't really help much?

2W 2A Marines is a Primaris thing. It's their own thing.

Chaos Space Marines are not Primaris and are not getting 2W and 2A anytime soon. Indeed, they are the equivalent of Tacs.

It's a commercial thing to make people want to buy Primaris instead of Old Marines and that's it.

And don't bring the lore up. There's as much lore going in favor of 2W 2A Chaos Space Marines (Chosen, veterans of the HH etc) as there is going against it (1. Legions are not solely made of tough veterans 2. they do make fresh new CSM 3. a good portion of the Legions are made of renegades nowadays 4. Chaos can be a handicap as much as a boost).

It might change of course ... In a couple of years. But I'm not seeing GW taking away anytime soon what makes Primaris unique, especially since they are a very recent addition to 40K.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Game needs more granularity for sure.

Does it? We're playing a company-scale wargame based on d6s where we frequently need to be able to track 100+ models per side, and where we need to be able to track unaltered humans and fifty-foot stompy robots using the same rules. There are about 350 datasheets in 40k (considering datasheets with the same name in different books, like "Tactical Squad" or "Rhino", to be rotational isomers rather than distinct datasheets). You could claim that everything needs to be unique and have a unique statline, but there are something like 620,000,000 unique statlines possible within the current system, you don't need to fiddle with the numbers/d6s very much to do that (there are 70,000 unique statlines possible within the range of stats current Codexes use just for Troops...). You could claim that everything needs to have unique numbers in every stat, but does that mean everything needs to have a stat number somewhere from 1 to 350?

Is there a point at which you're just making the game more complicated for the sake of making it more complicated and it doesn't really help much?

We're not there yet.

I'm starting to think that stats are meaning less and less in this game, and that special rules are the name of the game. Which is to say, ignoring core rules (which is what special rules basically are) are more important than what numbers you get. Some are still important, like ≥T8 or <T8. But BS3+ vs BS4+? Who cares, when you get all re-rolls all the time?

See: Primaris Marines before and after improved chapter tactics, doctrines, bolter drills etc.

Problem with CSM: not stats, but that they play the rules of 40k, rather than being excepted from half of them.>