Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ernestas wrote:
Horus Heresy era space marines were nothing compared to the horror that W40k is. Space marines rolfstomping Primarchs. Chapter Masters being able to fight off Greater Demons. Horus heresy captain is equivalent to W40k fresh space marine. W40k captain on the other hand is equivalent to Horus Heresy Legion's most elite troops.

Such drastic shift in power is due to two things. Experience and training. Contrary to the popular belief, Crusade era space marines sucked. This was due to huge pressure for constant reinforcements and numbers. Crusade Era forces solely relied on legionaries while relegating humans to mere peacekeeping and patrol duties most of the time. Due to this, training of new space marines were short. Most chapters would raise new space marine in 4-5 years. At the end of Crusade, this process would be optimized to 2-3 years. This means that Horus Heresy space marines were less experienced and skilled than w40k Scouts and would get outperformed by them. There was far less failures in recruitment processes, because Crusade era legions had huge demand for constant flow of new recruits, so they considered deaths and failures as unnecessary. Thus, they produced more space marines at the cost of quality of those recruits.

The second thing which everybody forgets is that Crusade era had massive rate of attrition, hence huge numbers and reinforcements. It lasted centuries and there were few notable space marines who fought from start to finish. Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.

Experience means little with sufficiently powerful weaponry. Elite Waffen SS troops are just as dead as greens troops when an American 155mm barrage hits. The concept of marines is so flawed to begin with that CSM logically can't be the main antagonist.

Eldar still live normal lives and are going from random person to trained elite warrior. There's a difference between that and what happens with space marines.

I highly doubt ANY of them are personally. It seems we just have very different ideas of what a chaos marine is in the lore as well as the game.

The Perils does make sense though. That's not doing something forbidden, that's having a demon eat your soul which happens to Chaos as much as everyone else.

The thing with Chaos is that they are aligned with denizens of a warp. There is a nice story about Black Legion from Abbadon's personal assassin's perspective. This assassin worked for years to prepare an assassination attempt on rival Nurgle champion. He had ambushed his victim with his pet demon. Unlucky, this champion had figured out how to control this assassin by gaining hold of something very personal to him. So, assassin had redoubled warp based attack, he did not attacked physically as he threw his soul at his opponent to tear it out. Yet, he couldn't kill him and he sensed how denizens of a warp was about to devour his soul. His world went to black and he woke up safely in his room. It seems that his pet demon saw what was happening and it rushed to his master's side. Grabbed his soul with its teeth and dragged it out through immaterium back to his original body.

In tabletop terms, assassin tried to perform close up assassination attempt by using physic power. He rolled 1s or 6s. Instead of exploding or getting possessed, his personal demon instead of performing declared attack, rushed to save soul of its master. Instead of this psyker exploding, it got back to reserve zone.


This is why Chaos should not suffer same perils as Imperial counterparts. They work together with those entities, not against them as Imperial servants do. Furthermore, they have marks of their respective Gods which gives pause for warp residents to attack them. Failing all that, there are countless ways to ensure your safety when you are steeped deeply in heretical sorceries.


You are speaking about Guardians. Aspect Warriors are professional soldiers. Also, my point was that Eldar is so much more gifted than humans are. They naturally are a match for a space marine. Yet, even they take a lot longer to git gut at stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
Horus Heresy era space marines were nothing compared to the horror that W40k is. Space marines rolfstomping Primarchs. Chapter Masters being able to fight off Greater Demons. Horus heresy captain is equivalent to W40k fresh space marine. W40k captain on the other hand is equivalent to Horus Heresy Legion's most elite troops.

Such drastic shift in power is due to two things. Experience and training. Contrary to the popular belief, Crusade era space marines sucked. This was due to huge pressure for constant reinforcements and numbers. Crusade Era forces solely relied on legionaries while relegating humans to mere peacekeeping and patrol duties most of the time. Due to this, training of new space marines were short. Most chapters would raise new space marine in 4-5 years. At the end of Crusade, this process would be optimized to 2-3 years. This means that Horus Heresy space marines were less experienced and skilled than w40k Scouts and would get outperformed by them. There was far less failures in recruitment processes, because Crusade era legions had huge demand for constant flow of new recruits, so they considered deaths and failures as unnecessary. Thus, they produced more space marines at the cost of quality of those recruits.

The second thing which everybody forgets is that Crusade era had massive rate of attrition, hence huge numbers and reinforcements. It lasted centuries and there were few notable space marines who fought from start to finish. Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.

Experience means little with sufficiently powerful weaponry. Elite Waffen SS troops are just as dead as greens troops when an American 155mm barrage hits. The concept of marines is so flawed to begin with that CSM logically can't be the main antagonist.

If you think that there is little difference between Elite Waffen SS troops and Volkssturm troops then I have nothing more to say to you.

That is not at all what I said. I said that it takes Eldar Aspect Warriors a long time to train because they go from citizens with little or no experience to elite soldiers.
They also obsess over things and take a long time to do everything.
None of which matters because it doesn't alter the fact that a Crusade Marine is pretty much equal to a 40k era one because they're physically near identical, similarly trained and both have a load of experience.


Chaos should absolutely suffer perils the way Imperials do. Just because you're friends with a Nurgle Demon doesn't mean that the Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh and 'wild' Demons won't eat your soul at the first chance. Any protective sorceries you have just make you better at never rolling a perils which the Imperium also does with things like psychic hoods.

Tac marines are infinitely better because chapter tactics are free.

Chaos marines had to pay points for their mark of chaos and banners.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
One of the worst things to do when designing an army is to make two units that do exactly the same thing but one of them is better than the other. Back in 5e when the Grey Knights came out I could take Strike Squads or Terminators in Troops, or I could take Crowe and get Purifiers in Troops. They all had almost identical statlines and identical equipment, so everyone just took the Purifiers because they did every job either of the other two did better and/or cheaper.

Intercessors aren't a strictly better Troops choice; they have better statlines, true, but they don't have the equipment flexibility or transport options of Tacticals or Scouts, or the advance deployment tricks of Infiltrators or Scouts. They're not a straightforward replacement for anything else that does all the same things better. If you want Chosen to be an alternate Troops choice you might need to give them an identity other than "Chaos Marines but with better stats and more options."

Not a fan of Bolt Action I see.

firehockey91 wrote:
Does this bother anyone else? CSM have the same stat lines as tacs. Could this be something they address in 9th? I would imagine they should be infused with chaos power and therefore stronger than their loyalist equivalents. Thoughts?

Chaos Space Marines are fundamentally tactical marines who defected to the other side. It makes sense to me that they have identical stats.

And as for infusion of chaos power, most people, space marines included, who get "infused with chaos power" don't become stronger:


And, of course, the models do represent some degree of "chaos infusion" with horns, faces in the armor, and such.

"If you think that there is little difference between Elite Waffen SS troops and Volkssturm troops then I have nothing more to say to you."

They both turn to soup real good when hit by 155 shells. That's my point.

Martel732 wrote:
"If you think that there is little difference between Elite Waffen SS troops and Volkssturm troops then I have nothing more to say to you."

They both turn to soup real good when hit by 155 shells. That's my point.

Yup. Same for an Abrams and an APC. So a rhino and an executioner should have equal stats except for weapons.

Actually everything is equal when hit by a hydrogen bomb so I guess everything should have equal stats.

Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.

After most 40k bolter porn novels I read...my main question is...how da heck does anyone have 10k experience, let alone few decades,lol...to begin with, there are not 'that many' marines out there, and in novels, they are dying left and right. You literally have 'guardsmen' head shooting them with lasguns through lenses.
Then when some xeno invasion comes, you can have chapters and chapters more or less obliterated.

 smurfORnot wrote:

Compare this to w40 where Chaos space marines have over 10 thousands years of experience. Some might even double or triple that number due to how time flows within a warp. Comparing veterans of a long war to freshly baked space marine newbies is like comparing boy scout club to USA marines.

After most 40k bolter porn novels I read...my main question is...how da heck does anyone have 10k experience, let alone few decades,lol...to begin with, there are not 'that many' marines out there, and in novels, they are dying left and right. You literally have 'guardsmen' head shooting them with lasguns through lenses.
Then when some xeno invasion comes, you can have chapters and chapters more or less obliterated.

Yeah.

Also, to be fair, his own point about the Warp self-defeats. They may have double or triple that amount of experience... or they may have half or a third. Or ten minutes. Maybe some literally still think it's M30

I didn't say that. I was talking specifically about how CSM being "experienced" should matter a lot. I'm saying it shouldn't.

Being experienced also means they're old, over-confident, shell-shocked, bored, and out-of-practice. The whole story of an Astartes' descent into heresy is that s/he wants something for themself, and it's that essential selfishness that both drags them into the embrace of Chaos (because Chaos gives you things) and degrades them. Once in the grip of Chaos there are three outcomes, the first being death. The second being Daemonhood, which means you're hollowed out and have a daemon poured into where your soul used to be. The third is Spawndom, where you're hollowed out and there's no daemon on standby to puppet your body and soul because you weren't interesting enough. Spawndom isn't just a Fleshchange style of explosion, but also a slow degradation as gifts and time work their special magic.

That's not to mention Chaos' essential problem with logistics, discipline, and espirit de corps.

Martel732 wrote:
I didn't say that. I was talking specifically about how CSM being "experienced" should matter a lot. I'm saying it shouldn't.

You didnt tackle the point though. Just admit you're wrong please so we can move forward.

What point? Yeah vets are better in a fire fight, but I'm questioning how valuable that really is. There really shouldn't be anymore CSM anyway. They are a finite resource. The game needs a complete rewrite to accurately show meaningful unit differences like the kind they are taking about imo.

Luke_Prowler wrote:It's threads like these that's always raised the question for me: Why is Chaos Marines the main antagonist/ biggest threat to the Imperium? They seem to be constantly described as ill-disciplined, armed with failing equipment, constantly infighting, have questionable leaders, and their closest allies seem just as quick to screw them over as their enemies.

More on topic, I think bringing back the old marks which allowed you to upgrade a stat for a price, or at least something like that, would give CSM something to let them have an advantage. Ideally, more equipment options as well as others have said. It seems odd that a group described as being very individualistic is more restricted than the regimented Imperial equivalent (and I can sympathize, playing orks)

Yeah, I think there are really three tiers of Chaos Marines in the current rules, and their representation is iffy.

1. CSM, who are basically Tacticals, but without the Doctrines or Chapter bonuses that make Tacticals useful.
2. Chosen, who are just CSM with +1A and Ld and more special weapons at a considerable cost increase. They still suck against Primaris. Whoopee.
3. Cult Marines. Roughly the same level as Primaris, some better than others.

So I'd propose a slight rework that breaks them into four tiers.

1. Renegades, chaff, new hires- you know, the evil equivalent of Tacticals. The current CSM profile.
2. Make 'Veterans' available as a Troops choice, using the current profile of Chosen, but give them a slight buff to be worth the price. Maybe BS2+ (not a huge deal when everyone has re-rolls everywhere). They'd be right in between Tacticals and Primaris in cost, lacking the sheer durability of Primaris but making up for it with equipment and skill.
3. Have Chosen be the marked, elite Veterans. Depending on who they're Marked by might determine the nature of their improvement. These guys would be on par with Primaris, but again still W1, relying on the blessings of their gods (eg an invuln for Tzeentch, or a FNP for Nurgle) along with high skill to be useful.
4. Actual Cult troops. These guys should be scary as feth as far as SM infantry go. All W2 base, and then with various abilities as befitting their gods, putting them all in the 20-25pt range. I mean they're the cream of the crop as far as Chaos soldiery is concerned, they should function the part.

It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose? I'd much rather see Renegades be comparable to Tacticals, Chaos-infused millennia-old veterans be equivalent to Primaris, then have both an intermediate step and a next level.

 catbarf wrote:

It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose?

That's a major reason why the introduction of Primaris to the setting is super-dumb.


In regards to the rest of the post: Two things can help the Chaos side of the equation a lot here.

1. Armament for Chosen. Chosen are weirdly limited to 5 models with weapon upgrades (4 plus Sergeant), while the loyalist versions (Sternguard and Vanguard) can arm everybody.
2. Possessed should be better. Hopefully GW will make some new kit of marine-monsters and will pump Possessed to be absolute beasts.

That said, there are already three units off the top of my head that also serve in the Chaos-Marine++/anti-Primaris role. Terminators (with their combi-weapon options), Obliterators, and Spawn (which, the last time I used them were pretty awesome iirc.)

Lastly, it bugs me that Cult Terminators aren't a thing in the core CSM book. If you get those back in there, you open up more possibilities for powerful Chaos Vets.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose?

That's a major reason why the introduction of Primaris to the setting is super-dumb.


In regards to the rest of the post: Two things can help the Chaos side of the equation a lot here.

1. Armament for Chosen. Chosen are weirdly limited to 5 models with weapon upgrades (4 plus Sergeant), while the loyalist versions (Sternguard and Vanguard) can arm everybody.
2. Possessed should be better. Hopefully GW will make some new kit of marine-monsters and will pump Possessed to be absolute beasts.

That said, there are already three units off the top of my head that also serve in the Chaos-Marine++/anti-Primaris role. Terminators (with their combi-weapon options), Obliterators, and Spawn (which, the last time I used them were pretty awesome iirc.)

Lastly, it bugs me that Cult Terminators aren't a thing in the core CSM book. If you get those back in there, you open up more possibilities for powerful Chaos Vets.

That's not exactly how Chosen are done. They get 4 Special Weapons or Combi-Weapons, 1 Special or Heavy Weapon, then you get the Champion. It's a bit bizarre though agreed.
Also Primaris being introduced didn't make Cult Marines unappealing, as Cult Marines themselves are overall unappealing. Rememember, none of these suped up dudes have Vet stats or anything, and some of the rules writing is silly. Did you know Plague Marine Bolters aren't counted as Plague Weapons AT ALL but their dinky knives they get one attack with are?

Nurglitch wrote:
Being experienced also means they're old, over-confident, shell-shocked, bored, and out-of-practice. The whole story of an Astartes' descent into heresy is that s/he wants something for themself, and it's that essential selfishness that both drags them into the embrace of Chaos (because Chaos gives you things) and degrades them.

Wait, wait. That isn't how most 'descents into heresy' happened with the legions. The first possession of a marine we see in the HH novels happens because a name is being whispered into the voxnet. There was no wanting there, no selfishness. No agency at all in fact. The marine basically just walked into bad warp juice from ancient times, and a daemon he knew nothing about took over.

For the legions in general, most had no idea what they were getting into and its mostly because they're going along with the group/primarch, not because they're being selfish.

And the former case (ignorance yielding accidental corruption/possession) happens regularly in 30k and 40k. From random people looking at weird sigils and going nuts all the way up to Fulgrim picking up a fancy sword on a whim and a daemon taking his body.
There is a complete lack of selfishness or degradation (until afterwards). Just bad luck and wrong place, wrong time scenarios.

Full-on screaming devotion to the chaos powers until they make pact with the supplicant actually comes up relatively rarely, and it mostly happens with idiots who get a bad end in short order.

Contempt for the chaos powers is surprisingly common amongst the 'chaos marines.' Both in the big names (Abaddon, Fabius), and in some cases large chunks of legions (though that varies by author)

That's not to mention Chaos' essential problem with logistics, discipline, and espirit de corps.

Well, the latter is what brought most of them into the chaos fold. The 'warrior lodges' were an expression of espirit de corps.

I dunno, I think it was telling the first marine to be possesed was a member of the lodge. we know little about what went on in the lodges on a daily basis but given they where founded by the word bearers etc. and given the emperor disliked them it stands to reason they engaged in secret practices that did open them to chaos

 catbarf wrote:

So I'd propose a slight rework that breaks them into four tiers.

1. Renegades, chaff, new hires- you know, the evil equivalent of Tacticals. The current CSM profile.
2. Make 'Veterans' available as a Troops choice, using the current profile of Chosen, but give them a slight buff to be worth the price. Maybe BS2+ (not a huge deal when everyone has re-rolls everywhere). They'd be right in between Tacticals and Primaris in cost, lacking the sheer durability of Primaris but making up for it with equipment and skill.
3. Have Chosen be the marked, elite Veterans. Depending on who they're Marked by might determine the nature of their improvement. These guys would be on par with Primaris, but again still W1, relying on the blessings of their gods (eg an invuln for Tzeentch, or a FNP for Nurgle) along with high skill to be useful.
4. Actual Cult troops. These guys should be scary as feth as far as SM infantry go. All W2 base, and then with various abilities as befitting their gods, putting them all in the 20-25pt range. I mean they're the cream of the crop as far as Chaos soldiery is concerned, they should function the part.

It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose? I'd much rather see Renegades be comparable to Tacticals, Chaos-infused millennia-old veterans be equivalent to Primaris, then have both an intermediate step and a next level.

Whether you're GW making official boxes or you're a converter who doesn't care about GW much, the tiers need to be really distinct visually and in games. The tiers need to be kind of finessed out especially when we used to have both cult units and more powerful chosen cult units, also bikers/havocs, raptor cult, warp talons, and possessed. It's not like loyalists where all the different units are just differently equipped versions of the same basic marine.

When you buy the kit or put the model on the table the chosen need to look way different than the regular marines, and they have to play way different too. Someone in this thread is already talking about how units shouldn't duplicate and how PAGK, GKTs and Paladins were all too similar, or perhaps regular custodes and their terminator versions.

Really the basic chaff squad should be worse than tacticals. There has to be more space between them and chosen if they're both going to be troops in the same army. Their armor should probably be pretty jank too.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

So I'd propose a slight rework that breaks them into four tiers.

1. Renegades, chaff, new hires- you know, the evil equivalent of Tacticals. The current CSM profile.
2. Make 'Veterans' available as a Troops choice, using the current profile of Chosen, but give them a slight buff to be worth the price. Maybe BS2+ (not a huge deal when everyone has re-rolls everywhere). They'd be right in between Tacticals and Primaris in cost, lacking the sheer durability of Primaris but making up for it with equipment and skill.
3. Have Chosen be the marked, elite Veterans. Depending on who they're Marked by might determine the nature of their improvement. These guys would be on par with Primaris, but again still W1, relying on the blessings of their gods (eg an invuln for Tzeentch, or a FNP for Nurgle) along with high skill to be useful.
4. Actual Cult troops. These guys should be scary as feth as far as SM infantry go. All W2 base, and then with various abilities as befitting their gods, putting them all in the 20-25pt range. I mean they're the cream of the crop as far as Chaos soldiery is concerned, they should function the part.

It just seems really weird to me that the very best, specialized troops infused by the gods themselves are on par with the new mass-produced basic troops of the poster boy faction. What kind of threat is that supposed to pose? I'd much rather see Renegades be comparable to Tacticals, Chaos-infused millennia-old veterans be equivalent to Primaris, then have both an intermediate step and a next level.

Whether you're GW making official boxes or you're a converter who doesn't care about GW much, the tiers need to be really distinct visually and in games. The tiers need to be kind of finessed out especially when we used to have both cult units and more powerful chosen cult units, also bikers/havocs, raptor cult, warp talons, and possessed. It's not like loyalists where all the different units are just differently equipped versions of the same basic marine.

When you buy the kit or put the model on the table the chosen need to look way different than the regular marines, and they have to play way different too. Someone in this thread is already talking about how units shouldn't duplicate and how PAGK, GKTs and Paladins were all too similar, or perhaps regular custodes and their terminator versions.

Really the basic chaff squad should be worse than tacticals. There has to be more space between them and chosen if they're both going to be troops in the same army. Their armor should probably be pretty jank too.

GW didn't take chances whatsoever with using different stats for anything, which is a complete shame especially with the garbage wounding table they created too.

The problem with Chaos Marines has always been that there isn't a whole helluva lot of room in a D6 system, and then GW went and threw everything off kilter with Primaris marines. So now we have tons of fluff where Chaos troops have either lots of experience or just plain warp essence infusing them to make them tougher than modern tactical marines despite the stats not showing very mich difference, but now Space Marines got this huge infusion of marines that DO have better stats than standard marines, but Chaos still stays the same. A D8 0r D10 based system could have both Chaos Marines be better than Tacticals, AND Primaris be on par with Chaos or better.

Theoretically while Space Marines are supposed to be a numerically inferior, mechanically superior force, Chaos should be an even larger imbalance in that way, with Lost and the Damned troops to make up the difference.

So like its been stated by others in this thread, a Chaos codex could would have the option for two forces in it reminiscent of the old 2nd Edition codex. 1: A distinctly small amount of better-than-Tactical Chaos marines in a force using Daemon engines and squads of crappy cultists, beastmen, etc would counter the numbers disadvantage. 2: A force that represents a renegade force of marines, where they are more like Loyalists in number and power, with a smaller amount of Chaotic troops and Engines than the first army style.

I know it wouldn't solve all of chaos' problems but I have always thought possessed should kind of be our analog to Primaris and it always struck me odd that possessed are a purely melee unit. Would it not make sense than many chaos marines sharing their body with a daemon would still choose to use ranged weapons, especially since there is already precedent for warp tainted and enhanced weapons. So I had the thought, how interesting would it be if a unit of possessed could choose to replace their horrifying mutations with warp bolters?

 Zeruel13 wrote:
I know it wouldn't solve all of chaos' problems but I have always thought possessed should kind of be our analog to Primaris and it always struck me odd that possessed are a purely melee unit. Would it not make sense than many chaos marines sharing their body with a daemon would still choose to use ranged weapons, especially since there is already precedent for warp tainted and enhanced weapons. So I had the thought, how interesting would it be if a unit of possessed could choose to replace their horrifying mutations with warp bolters?

The problem with using possessed as our primaris equivalent is that some legions aren't as accepting of chaos and mutations. See Night Lords and Iron Warriors. (Although the iw are perfectly fine with obliterators for some reason. )

CSM lose as much as they gain when they stop being the thing they were created to be and instead become selfish and corrupt. Chaos steals and degraded as often as it gives or enhances.

CSM and tacs should be basically equal. They are. I’m good. And whomever said 30k marines are holistically weaker than 40k both doesn’t understand the lore and what it’s derived from. Space Marine tactical marines are basically medieval sergeants. Space Marine Legionnaires are Roman Imperial soldiers. I don’t think anyone guesses that a Legion is inferior to 5k sergeants... and they shouldn’t... nor are 40k (non-stupid Primaris) marines any better at all than their Crusade equivalents.

Voss wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Being experienced also means they're old, over-confident, shell-shocked, bored, and out-of-practice. The whole story of an Astartes' descent into heresy is that s/he wants something for themself, and it's that essential selfishness that both drags them into the embrace of Chaos (because Chaos gives you things) and degrades them.

Wait, wait. That isn't how most 'descents into heresy' happened with the legions. The first possession of a marine we see in the HH novels happens because a name is being whispered into the voxnet. There was no wanting there, no selfishness. No agency at all in fact. The marine basically just walked into bad warp juice from ancient times, and a daemon he knew nothing about took over.

For the legions in general, most had no idea what they were getting into and its mostly because they're going along with the group/primarch, not because they're being selfish.

And the former case (ignorance yielding accidental corruption/possession) happens regularly in 30k and 40k. From random people looking at weird sigils and going nuts all the way up to Fulgrim picking up a fancy sword on a whim and a daemon taking his body.
There is a complete lack of selfishness or degradation (until afterwards). Just bad luck and wrong place, wrong time scenarios.

Full-on screaming devotion to the chaos powers until they make pact with the supplicant actually comes up relatively rarely, and it mostly happens with idiots who get a bad end in short order.

Contempt for the chaos powers is surprisingly common amongst the 'chaos marines.' Both in the big names (Abaddon, Fabius), and in some cases large chunks of legions (though that varies by author)

That's not to mention Chaos' essential problem with logistics, discipline, and espirit de corps.

Well, the latter is what brought most of them into the chaos fold. The 'warrior lodges' were an expression of espirit de corps.

The Warrior Lodges also gave the Traitors something that they wanted, which was a respite from the strictures of their legions, ostensibly to promote cross-rank comradeship, but everyone who was there wanted to be there for their own reasons. Xavier Jubal wanted to be in a secret society, and kept a symbol of that self-centered notion in his personal kit. That was Samus' way-in. Likewise Fulgrim wanted perfection, not in an abstract sense of perfecting Humanity or for the Emperor's Children, but personally. We know that he was unsatisfied with his artwork, and perhaps with his state of being at being able to produce something mechanically perfect but lacking in soul or meaning. Again, Fulgrim's self-centered desires offered a way in. Horus, notably in Horus Rising, notes that the Emperor has retreated to Terra and won't share what he's up to with his loyal legions, and not even Horus despite their closeness. Horus wants that love and relationship, that position of truth with the Emperor of Mankind. After all, Horus knows he's fantastic, so why doesn't the Emperor recognize that? He literally re-enacts Christ's moment of doubt on the cross a that end, asking the Emperor why he has been forsaken, and even gets stapled through the forearm for his trouble (While canonically Christ got stapled through the hands, through the forearm was the actual Roman method, resembling the Greek letter chi more than the English tee).

ADB works this very nicely with Abaddon. How does Abaddon, and other senior Astartes, not get over-taken by Chaos when so many of his contemporaries have become Spawn or Princes? They all want something greater than themselves. Abaddon (Black Legion, Talon of Horus) wants revenge on the God-Emperor, not simply for himself, but for how the Legiones Astartes were mis-used. Ahriman (Unchanged, Exile, Sorcerer) wants to restore his legion, undo his mistakes, and make everything right. Fabius Bile (Primogenitor, Clonelord) wants to lead Humanity into the future, but the element of sticking around tinkering with this New Man is the way Chaos has gotten into his heart and become the mysterious blight that all of his science cannot fix.

So long as your desires are turned outwards, and selfless, you're pretty much immune to Chaos. Once you want something for yourself, once those desires turn inward, then that's the chink your soul's armour that Chaos needs to get in. The Law vs Chaos battle in 40k isn't some nebulous 'good' vs 'evil' it's 'ideal' vs 'self'. Are you scared of being killed? Don't want those weird runes to give you the willies? Find yourself unsatisfied with your rank and position? Maybe it's just a little thing in normal space far away from anything malign that festers in your heart. Maybe it's a stray thought as you're in the vicinity when there's a warp surge. And maybe you've been abused to hell and back as preparation for a daemon finding you to be a suitable host (again, ADB in the short story about the Word Bearers figuring out the hows and whys of possession).

The thing with chaos it is that it is so varied and diverse it is impossible to say anything as a hard rule. Remember, a lot of Chaos worlds were completely indistinguishable for Great Crusade fleets even after years of investigations. Worshipping Chaos does not mean killing everybody. Chaos is all about promoting self identity and it manifests through that. That happens for one doesn't not have to happen for others. For example, some people here said that letting demons inside themselves to be bad. That couldn't be further from the truth for SOME people. Look at Word Bearers. They had formed extremely powerful relationship with their own demons who had bonded into their flesh. It was long, harmonious and steady process where Word Bearer had nurtured his own demon inside his flesh in order to help him to take better control of him. To fuse not only with his body, but his soul and together to become so much more. If you read First Heretic novel you won't see any "MUAHAHA, I"M SO EVIL!" stuff from worshipping Chaos.

Chaos in itself is not force for good or bad. It is force of nature. It is as it is, because everybody in this galaxy is disgusting piece of gak and warp reflects that. It is attracted to people who are pieces of gak like those evil entities in a warp. Chaos in itself is like radiation, it mutates flesh, corrupts. You can't complain that you get radiation poisoning while choosing to stand in contaminated zone yourself. Yet, if you have will and skills necessary, you can work with this Chaos energy and to create things which should be outright impossible.


I also want to emphasize. Everybody, go to youtube and listen to an excellent audio drama of Long War. It will tell exactly how 10 thousand year old, uncorrupted Chaos marine looks like. By uncorrupted I mean, he is not insane, his flesh is not mutated, but rather enhanced by countless boons of Chaos.

 Ernestas wrote:
Chaos in itself is not force for good or bad. It is force of nature. It is as it is, because everybody in this galaxy is disgusting piece of gak and warp reflects that.

The gods don't make the galaxy this way. We do.