So, yesterday I was assembling my models and I thought: "Hey, it would be cool to have big squad of bloodcrushers as I already have their buffers and they get strong buffs from their numbers". I looked how much they would cost. 78 euros for six of them... I was shocked that Flesh Hounds cost 40 euros for 5 models too...
Now, I'm here not to complain that prices are too high paradoxically enough. I'm puzzled about how GW is pricing their individual items that it makes this all so more perplexing. I do consider their deals to be actually decent value for their products. Look here: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Start-Collecting-Daemons-of-Khorne-2018
70 euros and I get 3 Bloodcrushers, 10 Bloodletters and a Herald on Blood Throne. I personally call that a decent deal considering how expensive Warhammer is and knowing prices of a lot of miniature makers, getting equivalent of 15 models (herald is a bigger model, rounding up + you get free shipping and a small discount if you order from your hobby store) for 70 euros puts them at 4,6 euro per model. It is a fair price in my view. I consider all such deals from that I saw and can remember as great deals. One of those starter packs are enough to start having fun with this hobby! I played with.
It costs 60 euros normally and during demo I did not felt that my army was bare bones. I had fun and wanted to play more with this set.
Now, this is where nonsense begins, if I want to expand my army with specific units, I practically must to purchase multiple boxes of these bundles, because it is far cheaper. Even if I do not need those additional models, you still a lot better at just selling them up on ebay eventually. Here is another example, I see that demon army which I'm assembling right now often benefits from big squad sizes. Yet, my battlebox contained only a minimal amount of units. In order to increase squad sizes, it makes a lot more sense to purchase another Wrath and Rapture set for roughly 80 euros than to pay around 70 euros with all the discounts from my hobby store!
Now compare with this. Do you want to pay 78 euros for 6 Bloodcrushers OR get entire army of Khorne with this bundle?
See what I'm talking about? There are a lot of reasonably priced GW products out there and I enjoy paying money for them. Yet, some of them are so ridiculously priced that it just frustrates me to no end!
This creates an interesting situation. At a price of fully stocking up on Bloodcrushers and Flesh Hounds, I might as well buy an entire Khorne army from ebay. At 150 euros you can start buying off people entire collections. I see same nonsense with Warmachine miniatures too. They are not cheaper and they produce worse quality stuff. Yet, I had noticed that it would be cheaper for me to buy off an entire collection and then just add whatever I want to have to it. I do understand that used items lose their value, but I also have to add quite a few units which I prefer over combination of units I get in collection I buy (like lack of Bloodcrushers).
In the end, everybody knows or should know that you do not buy from GW directly. This is not their business model, their store is only for browsing and only complete newbies buy from them themselves. You buy from your hobby store, this way you get free shipping and depending on a store, you get discount. In my case, it is 10% from anything I order through their store. It is extremely handy with bulky packages as I do not have to pay 40 euros for shipping. Also, sometimes you can have SURPRISE discounts. I saw GW manipulating their prices, suddenly rising prices of their models out of a blue. This is why other retailers have maximum price lower than that of GW. This also means that GW sometimes forget to rise price of models to their retailers... So, I get 10% discount on top of old price. It is pleasant when it happens, but in general just frustrating of not knowing how much anything costs. So, all comparisons which I did are just slightly better for GW than I had presented them here. Yet, even other retailers are selling packs of Bloodcrushers for ridiculous prices.
BTW: I also can't tell any difference between these two models. They seem to be made of identical parts and I'm not pleased by their quality already. My Flesh Hounds for example did not glued together perfectly, there are very small gaps between parts at some places. I'm also not pleased by just how limited they are pose wise. You can only glue them in one fashion. Where is my freedom to glue my model in whatever pose I want to? Also, I never had purchased bigger models from GW who cost over hundred euros. I would be happy to pay money they are asking IF I would know that I'm getting some quality stuff. Now, I'm not happy with amount of poses models can have. Big part of this hobby is making each model just the way I like it. Now I have to pay premium for a product which is not even premium. 28 mm scale is awful to work with and it looks just bad. Did you ever inspected individual parts at this scale? How skulls for example looks next to my Flesh hound's feet? All those small parts are just a pain to paint and they plain out look bad, because scale is too small to give sufficiently sharp details to these small details.
Edit: If those Bloodcrushers from GW store would have unlimited poses I would be more inclined toward purchasing them, but I can't tell the difference between my plastic sprues and theirs. I also paid for Wrath and Rapture set exactly 88,88 euros. I get Khornish vibes out there! HELP!
BTW: I also can't tell any difference between these two models. They seem to be made of identical parts and I'm not pleased by their quality already. My Flesh Hounds for example did not glued together perfectly, there are very small gaps between parts at some places. I'm also not pleased by just how limited they are pose wise. You can only glue them in one fashion. Where is my freedom to glue my model in whatever pose I want to? Also, I never had purchased bigger models from GW who cost over hundred euros. I would be happy to pay money they are asking IF I would know that I'm getting some quality stuff. Now, I'm not happy with amount of poses models can have. Big part of this hobby is making each model just the way I like it. Now I have to pay premium for a product which is not even premium. 28 mm scale is awful to work with and it looks just bad. Did you ever inspected individual parts at this scale? How skulls for example looks next to my Flesh hound's feet? All those small parts are just a pain to paint and they plain out look bad, because scale is too small to give sufficiently sharp details to these small details.
Edit: If those Bloodcrushers from GW store would have unlimited poses I would be more inclined toward purchasing them, but I can't tell the difference between my plastic sprues and theirs. I also paid for Wrath and Rapture set exactly 88,88 euros. I get Khornish vibes out there! HELP!
So if you don't like the models why buy them?
If you don't buy them, then it doesn't matter what the price or scale is.
The only thing really curious about their pricing is how off the wall it tends to be. Sometimes it makes no rhyme or reason and they use magical conversions for the prices in different places.
The only thing they do that is magical in that regard is jack up the solo boxes so much as to make even a poor deal seem like a miracle by comparison. As well make previously over expensive boxes seem reasonable only held up to more current offerings.
I can't fathom the audacity of character model pricing. Appreciate they may not shift as many units as say an Incesstor kit but damn are those prices on the wrong side of egregious.
They have a wierd tendency to also let the pricinb be influenced on the points a unit costs sometimes, also HQ's are a must for all armies therefore, GW is milking where GW can.
They definitely overprice on some of their models when comparing to others.
Why does a single tyrranid biovore cost as much as a 10 man of troops for example, when you can take 3 biovores in a single unit.
Why did they jack land raider prices up to $75 when they are using basically the same kit they sold for $50 8 years ago? The molds have to be paid off already, and inflation hasn't gone up 50%.
Im completely fine with the mentality of "If they pay for it, we priced it right", but arbitrary price jacks do not seem like the best way to grow your market.
Eihnlazer wrote: They definitely overprice on some of their models when comparing to others.
Why does a single tyrranid biovore cost as much as a 10 man of troops for example, when you can take 3 biovores in a single unit.
Why did they jack land raider prices up to $75 when they are using basically the same kit they sold for $50 8 years ago? The molds have to be paid off already, and inflation hasn't gone up 50%.
Im completely fine with the mentality of "If they pay for it, we priced it right", but arbitrary price jacks do not seem like the best way to grow your market.
I sometimes have a feeling that GW is whale hunting as it is described in the Gaming industy.
And parade exemples are new models / HQ.
Exception wierdly enough a recentish one was the adversaries from BSF, which were extremely cheap. But it is the only one in recent times beyond the bundles.
BTW: I also can't tell any difference between these two models. They seem to be made of identical parts and I'm not pleased by their quality already. My Flesh Hounds for example did not glued together perfectly, there are very small gaps between parts at some places. I'm also not pleased by just how limited they are pose wise. You can only glue them in one fashion. Where is my freedom to glue my model in whatever pose I want to? Also, I never had purchased bigger models from GW who cost over hundred euros. I would be happy to pay money they are asking IF I would know that I'm getting some quality stuff. Now, I'm not happy with amount of poses models can have. Big part of this hobby is making each model just the way I like it. Now I have to pay premium for a product which is not even premium. 28 mm scale is awful to work with and it looks just bad. Did you ever inspected individual parts at this scale? How skulls for example looks next to my Flesh hound's feet? All those small parts are just a pain to paint and they plain out look bad, because scale is too small to give sufficiently sharp details to these small details.
Edit: If those Bloodcrushers from GW store would have unlimited poses I would be more inclined toward purchasing them, but I can't tell the difference between my plastic sprues and theirs. I also paid for Wrath and Rapture set exactly 88,88 euros. I get Khornish vibes out there! HELP!
So if you don't like the models why buy them? If you don't buy them, then it doesn't matter what the price or scale is.
Hmm, how it is best said? Imagine that you buy yourself Forge World Warlord Titan for 1500 euros and it comes missing some pieces and some of them are damaged. Would it be a reasonable to demand ForgeWorld to send those bits free of charge? With higher price comes higher expectations. Now, mom buys to her kid bunch of toy soldiers for 10 euros, would it be reasonable if she starts making a lot of trouble for a company if one of the soldiers has his gun bended?
If I'm paying premium for, lets say, those 5 Flesh Hounds for 40 bucks, I expect models to glue together cleanly. I want models to be more flexible rather than each model being rigid and in their individual poses. Maybe I got spoiled by Warmachine already, but I do enjoy being able to shift where my model is looking, where is his legs, how my model is moving his arms and holding its weapons. It had allowed me to express myself in small ways by making some better poses than on box art. It also makes you want to dismantle your model and to improve your stances if you want something different. I guess it is just downside of GW manufacturing techniques that they can't make a lot of molds for each model. Though, I'm surprised that they didn't tried to innovate with 3D printing already. I do believe that this technology could really cut the cost of low demand items like conversion kits. It also would be ideal technology for it as low size and inherently low production costs would be perfect for printers to mass produce various bits, additional details and conversion pieces for main models.
Eihnlazer wrote: They definitely overprice on some of their models when comparing to others.
Why does a single tyrranid biovore cost as much as a 10 man of troops for example, when you can take 3 biovores in a single unit.
Why did they jack land raider prices up to $75 when they are using basically the same kit they sold for $50 8 years ago? The molds have to be paid off already, and inflation hasn't gone up 50%.
Im completely fine with the mentality of "If they pay for it, we priced it right", but arbitrary price jacks do not seem like the best way to grow your market.
I sometimes have a feeling that GW is whale hunting as it is described in the Gaming industy. And parade exemples are new models / HQ.
Exception wierdly enough a recentish one was the adversaries from BSF, which were extremely cheap. But it is the only one in recent times beyond the bundles.
It would be sad if true. GW market is not particularly good for whaling, because their models is something which everyone wants to buy, because they are whole reason of a hobby. It is not like microtransactions in video game which are ultimately pointless in enjoying game itself. GW is a market which would benefit from as big demand as possible due to demand for new models and high initial investment per model. Paying to design model, to create model, to market model, etc.
I feel they have core units that they often discount, things like intercessors, tactical marines, terminators that are quite easy to get hold of via discounted bundles in numerous ways.
THEN they have another tier of more expensive products e.g. Invictor Tactical Warsuit, eliminators, impulsor. These aren't aimed at the new customer but at more developed customers who just want to add the cool models to their army so can justify the high price tag better. Once the sales of these new releases start to tail off they may appear in discounted boxes at a later date (like the aggressors did in the 'Tooth and Claw' box set.
I think it is a deliberate price structure move so it can be cheap (ish) to get into the hobby, but they can still charge higher prices for those who want EVERY miniature, particularly the new stuff.
I just don't think gw pricing and packaging is compelling to me as a costumer any more. An example:
For them, they could batch sprues to sell 30 ork boys in one box. This would take almost the same shelf space in stores (as most of the boxes are empty space already), would cost basicly the same to make and would lead to easier sells. Instead they choose to sell them in packs of 10 at an insane price. so if you wanna build an ork army you need 6-10 boxes. I think they have the wrong sell strategy to draw in costumers. They rely on keeping their player base small but that we invest heavily. I totally get why this could be called whaling
GW's pricing is one of the great mysteries and follows no apparent pattern. Virtually every other miniature company seems to at least follow a general rule. All infantry of X size costs Y, all vehicles that are roughly the same size cost Z. You find some variations (mostly on single models like characters since they can vary the most) but it's generally standard pricing for types.
With GW it's like this box is X, this other box with fewer models of the same size is Y, this one is inexplicably Z because it's newer than the other two so costs more just because.
Wayniac wrote: GW's pricing is one of the great mysteries and follows no apparent pattern. Virtually every other miniature company seems to at least follow a general rule. All infantry of X size costs Y, all vehicles that are roughly the same size cost Z. You find some variations (mostly on single models like characters since they can vary the most) but it's generally standard pricing for types.
With GW it's like this box is X, this other box with fewer models of the same size is Y, this one is inexplicably Z because it's newer than the other two so costs more just because.
GW 6th chaos god confirmed.
The minor deeity of price manipulation and randmoness.
Gitdakka wrote: I just don't think gw pricing and packaging is compelling to me as a costumer any more. An example:
For them, they could batch sprues to sell 30 ork boys in one box. This would take almost the same shelf space in stores (as most of the boxes are empty space already), would cost basicly the same to make and would lead to easier sells. Instead they choose to sell them in packs of 10 at an insane price. so if you wanna build an ork army you need 6-10 boxes. I think they have the wrong sell strategy to draw in costumers. They rely on keeping their player base small but that we invest heavily. I totally get why this could be called whaling
Agree, I would gladly pay 50 euros for 10 Flesh Hound, but their offerings are ridiculous. 40 euros for 5 Flesh Hounds! They sell bare minimum in terms units which you need to make your own squads. Like I had said, it is far more optimal to buy those starter packs meant to introduce new players into the hobby rather than to buy more of a specific unit which you need!
Ernestas wrote: Edit: If those Bloodcrushers from GW store would have unlimited poses I would be more inclined toward purchasing them, but I can't tell the difference between my plastic sprues and theirs. I also paid for Wrath and Rapture set exactly 88,88 euros. I get Khornish vibes out there! HELP!
Ernestas wrote: Edit: If those Bloodcrushers from GW store would have unlimited poses I would be more inclined toward purchasing them, but I can't tell the difference between my plastic sprues and theirs. I also paid for Wrath and Rapture set exactly 88,88 euros. I get Khornish vibes out there! HELP!
Gw genuinely is plastic crack. They lure you in with a good starter box deal, emmerse you in this fantasy escapism and then slowly jack up the prices to the point you're considering spending £100 on a single grey plastic model. Even when I bought 90% of my stuff on ebay I still felt guilty at myself for spending so much, it went beyond what a hobby really should be about. I always wanted to be as cool as the people in the shop who pressured me to buy the latest crap. Even when I was happy with my 2k points, GW decreased the points every year and changed unit strengths meaning I had to keep up if I wanted to continue playing in the community I felt a part of. If i left that community I felt like I'd lose all my friends.
Obviously, some people suffer from addiction more than others but you get the point. In the end I substituted 40k for other cheaper games that have me spending reasonable amounts on my hobby and don't give me crushing guilt. I did lose some friends but then I found others who played these other game (and playing these games really highlighted the problems I had with 40k). I still have lovely armies sitting on my shelf, I enjoyed the hobby aspect and they look cool but I've managed to get away from 40k spending.
Wayniac wrote: this one is inexplicably Z because it's newer than the other two so costs more just because.
There used to be time when that wasn't true. Of course that's when GW rised prices across the line each year. These days GW rather increases prices of new releases.
Same issue btw seen in warmachine where warjack A was cheaper than warjack B despite same size because B was newer. Was point of principle for pp they don't increase old prices.
Eihnlazer wrote: Why did they jack land raider prices up to $75 when they are using basically the same kit they sold for $50 8 years ago? The molds have to be paid off already, and inflation hasn't gone up 50%.
Im completely fine with the mentality of "If they pay for it, we priced it right", but arbitrary price jacks do not seem like the best way to grow your market.
The problem GW has, their factory is basically maxed out, they are literally selling as fast as they can produce, and in some cases not even that (see how half of IG range was out of stock for months after the codex dropped). In this situation, the only way to grow profits is to raise the prices, which also dampens demand a bit and makes the job of the factory guys easier.
They are completing new factory now, so with extra production powers they could afford to lower prices a bit and instead rely on volume sales. Will they do that? Dunno, modern, insane robber capitalism demands infinite profit growth for shareholders (impossible as it is) and in many cases it's literally illegal for the decision makers to do sensible stuff that will grow profits in long term but might mean less money short term. We'll see what GW does, they shown they are willing to lower prices in some ways (boxed sets and start collecting were just that in disguise) but that was response to a crisis so the shareholders might be less willing to allow that a second time...
Eihnlazer wrote: Why did they jack land raider prices up to $75 when they are using basically the same kit they sold for $50 8 years ago? The molds have to be paid off already, and inflation hasn't gone up 50%.
Im completely fine with the mentality of "If they pay for it, we priced it right", but arbitrary price jacks do not seem like the best way to grow your market.
The problem GW has, their factory is basically maxed out, they are literally selling as fast as they can produce, and in some cases not even that (see how half of IG range was out of stock for months after the codex dropped). In this situation, the only way to grow profits is to raise the prices, which also dampens demand a bit and makes the job of the factory guys easier.
They are completing new factory now, so with extra production powers they could afford to lower prices a bit and instead rely on volume sales. Will they do that? Dunno, modern, insane robber capitalism demands infinite profit growth for shareholders (impossible as it is) and in many cases it's literally illegal for the decision makers to do sensible stuff that will grow profits in long term but might mean less money short term. We'll see what GW does, they shown they are willing to lower prices in some ways (boxed sets and start collecting were just that in disguise) but that was response to a crisis so the shareholders might be less willing to allow that a second time...
No price drops. That factory is a huge liability in economic downturn. A recession is coming for the US. Brexit is going to happen. GW will need cash on hand.
I was thinking the other day, about a time when I was into warhammer as a kid. I remember one day, the store in my town had a big clear out. mustve dug out all the crap at the back of the shelves in the stockroom. they chucked it all in a bargain bin and sold it for pennies. it was great. as a 10 year old kid, i could spend my meagre £5 pocket money on some ancient white metal fantasy squire model and a some old copies of white dwarf. You'd never get that nowadays. I thought that they might put some of the old fantasy stuff on reduced prices when AoS came in, but no. its strange, but then retail in general seems more like that these days.
harlokin wrote: To what extent do the expensive steel moulds that GW use for their plastics affect their likely pricing thought process?
Pretty majorly, I'd have thought. That was always touted as the reason for single characters being comparatively expensive - GW generally expect to sell less of them but the mould costs about the same to make, and they have to recoup that cost.
I do wonder if they couldn't economise by putting multiple character models that were designed at the same time on the same mould and separating them for packaging - e.g. for Drukhari you could, for instance, have a single mould that produces 1 x Archon, 1 x Succubus and 1 x Haemonculus. I'd expect them to all sell at roughly similar levels, and I imagine it'd be cheaper to have a few extra of the less popular model(s) in stock than it would be to make an extra mould so they could be manufactured separately.
Not Online!!! wrote: They have a wierd tendency to also let the pricinb be influenced on the points a unit costs sometimes, also HQ's are a must for all armies therefore, GW is milking where GW can.
hhahahahaahaha, only sometimes. Or Else we'd be getting boxes of Ork Boys, Grots and stuff for pennies. I always find the points to pounds ratio to be batfrak insane.
Imagine 2 new people want to get into the hobby, and one wants to play Custodes, because they like big burly gold buggers, and the other likes horribly proportioned army men because they look a bit like Rambo so goes with Guard. The second person is immediately looking at double, triple or more the price of the first for a similarly points costed army.
FWIW I've found myself rarely going outside of the big bundles GW does these days. I'm far more likely to buy a Start Collecting or 2 faction box (especially something like Wrath and Rapture or Pricegouge Of The Phoenix where the 2 armies can work together) and get a dozen, or maybe a few dozen models vs a single box of maybe 5 models for a tenner less. As I find myself building up a solid core of some armies I'm definitely getting to the point where the more expensive single kits are going to be more appealing just for the variety but with customisation and kitbashing there's definitely less incentive to go for expensive single kits just to fill out an army. I bought that big box of Death Company for my BA when it was still around, even though I didn't intend to run 20 of them, and the Death Watch starter was bought just for more options in a Kill Team rather than as an actual intent to start another full faction.
ork mek gunz assuming you want a smasha gun is 31 points for $50 so you are literally looking at $1.61 per point
assming you wanted a 2k points list of all smasha guns you would pay $3,220 for the privilage.
this is why orks kit bash btw. one ork trukk box and a mek gun box cna make 4 mek guns and nobody knows what ork gunz are anyway so you just sall them all the same gun
I had done 2 sets of the new flesh hounds about a month and half ago for commissions; there are no gaps, if anything it’s hid by the way the parts come together. My bet is that you didn’t follow instructions or didn’t clean the mold clippings, most likely glued the head together before attaching to the body, where you’re suppose to attach one half around the tongue, then the other half.
I think the pricing on Start Collecting and army boxes is a clear example of anchoring. Putting an individual box at $60 sets the perceived value of that kit at $60, and then a $90 SC that includes that kit plus a bunch of other stuff seems like a bargain- even when it's still terribly expensive compared to non-GW miniatures.
Also, now that GW has moved to plastics for everything, kits that are expected to sell in fewer quantities (eg characters) are priced higher so as to more quickly recoup their mold cost. This is why you see $30 characters coming on itty bitty sprues. GW also has some products that are most definitely loss leaders, while others make up for it.
The most important thing to remember is that the actual production cost of a plastic kit- just injection molded plastic and printed paper and cardboard- is negligible, as is transportation and storage. GW's costs are almost purely operational, like wages for their employees and rent for their facilities, which are minimally impacted by volume sale. The primary cost for each new kit introduced is design time plus an up-front cost of ~$50-100k for each injection mold sprue, which then is amortized over time through sales.
From a marketing perspective, this makes GW more similar to a music, film, or videogame company, where the physical product (a CD/DVD in a box) is dirt-cheap to manufacture, and the price is determined more by expected volume of sale at an arbitrary price point. If you analyze their business from this perspective it makes a lot more sense- not to suggest that everyone should be happy with GW's prices, but there is method to the madness.
harlokin wrote: To what extent do the expensive steel moulds that GW use for their plastics affect their likely pricing thought process?
Pretty majorly, I'd have thought. That was always touted as the reason for single characters being comparatively expensive - GW generally expect to sell less of them but the mould costs about the same to make, and they have to recoup that cost.
I do wonder if they couldn't economise by putting multiple character models that were designed at the same time on the same mould and separating them for packaging - e.g. for Drukhari you could, for instance, have a single mould that produces 1 x Archon, 1 x Succubus and 1 x Haemonculus. I'd expect them to all sell at roughly similar levels, and I imagine it'd be cheaper to have a few extra of the less popular model(s) in stock than it would be to make an extra mould so they could be manufactured separately.
Maybe they already do this?
I've always heard part of the high prices is because like about 50% of their expenses is the cost of maintaining the GW stores worldwide. Since while plastic molds are expensive, you still find other companies that also do multipart hard plastic being cheaper than GW, often with having to outsource production to something like Renedra. Although character models are probably an outlier since they aren't sold that much (there's a reason most other companies other than GW do characters in metal/resin still)
DoomMouse wrote: I feel they have core units that they often discount, things like intercessors, tactical marines, terminators that are quite easy to get hold of via discounted bundles in numerous ways.
Yep, this is why I haven't bought anything for Tau in like 8 years, it's always those BLEEPING useless Crisis Suits, Ethereals and Fire Warriors you already have way too many of anyway in those things.
And the only things I want for Tau are the most overpriced, for example there's no reason other than greed a Ghostkeel is 40% more expensive than a flyer or a tank. To hell with that. It's not even that useful for most people on the tabletop. And I live 1500 kilometers from the closest GW store so I'm not paying for them to flush my money down a toilet to keep those useless things running.
This stuff is expensive at this point because they know people will pay at the rates they give to their liking, more or less just that.
it honestly bothers me a fair bit as they keep adding things i don't like to general model designs for their own reasons while also taking the opportunity to further bump up kits. but this is how they make their ability to produce meet maximum value for them.
Wayniac wrote: GW's pricing is one of the great mysteries and follows no apparent pattern. Virtually every other miniature company seems to at least follow a general rule. All infantry of X size costs Y, all vehicles that are roughly the same size cost Z. You find some variations (mostly on single models like characters since they can vary the most) but it's generally standard pricing for types.
With GW it's like this box is X, this other box with fewer models of the same size is Y, this one is inexplicably Z because it's newer than the other two so costs more just because.
It always amused me that on a coupe of boxes circa late 2000s (IIRC) GWdid lower the prices on them as opposed to like-for-like boxes. Those boxes, the Chaos Knights and Cold One Knights regiments. This was apparently an experiment by GW to see if things would sell at that lower price point (the rest of the calvary boxes were about £20 with these being £12 IIRC). Apparently it didn't work, as GW never went to that well again.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I was thinking the other day, about a time when I was into warhammer as a kid. I remember one day, the store in my town had a big clear out. mustve dug out all the crap at the back of the shelves in the stockroom. they chucked it all in a bargain bin and sold it for pennies. it was great. as a 10 year old kid, i could spend my meagre £5 pocket money on some ancient white metal fantasy squire model and a some old copies of white dwarf. You'd never get that nowadays. I thought that they might put some of the old fantasy stuff on reduced prices when AoS came in, but no. its strange, but then retail in general seems more like that these days.
I missed out on the mythical Great Lead Sale, as it was just before my time; but I got in on the ground floor with those 40k and WHFB sales during the change from 2nd to 3rd and 5th to 6th respectively. That sale is the reason I started playing Space Wolves. Went into my local GW wanting to start either DA or SW then I see tables and tables of boxes. Well, I've got my weekly paper round money of £12 and it is burning a hole in my pocket and I pick up Ranger Blackmane and the GH and BC boxes for practically nothing. Thanks GW!
catbarf wrote: I think the pricing on Start Collecting and army boxes is a clear example of anchoring. Putting an individual box at $60 sets the perceived value of that kit at $60, and then a $90 SC that includes that kit plus a bunch of other stuff seems like a bargain- even when it's still terribly expensive compared to non-GW miniatures.
Also, now that GW has moved to plastics for everything, kits that are expected to sell in fewer quantities (eg characters) are priced higher so as to more quickly recoup their mold cost. This is why you see $30 characters coming on itty bitty sprues. GW also has some products that are most definitely loss leaders, while others make up for it.
The most important thing to remember is that the actual production cost of a plastic kit- just injection molded plastic and printed paper and cardboard- is negligible, as is transportation and storage. GW's costs are almost purely operational, like wages for their employees and rent for their facilities, which are minimally impacted by volume sale. The primary cost for each new kit introduced is design time plus an up-front cost of ~$50-100k for each injection mold sprue, which then is amortized over time through sales.
From a marketing perspective, this makes GW more similar to a music, film, or videogame company, where the physical product (a CD/DVD in a box) is dirt-cheap to manufacture, and the price is determined more by expected volume of sale at an arbitrary price point. If you analyze their business from this perspective it makes a lot more sense- not to suggest that everyone should be happy with GW's prices, but there is method to the madness.
Is it still 50-100k? I've heard claims that the industry had made significant strides in cost reductions for their plastic molds. It's all hearsay, but it would definitely be a goal with competent 3d printing on the horizon.
GW prices seem to be driven by volume (low=$$), shelf space required, with a premium tacked on for awesome or currently OP releases. Right now Land Raiders are low volume and take a lot of shelf space, so GW jacked their price to 'justify' wasting shelf space on them.
Is it still 50-100k? I've heard claims that the industry had made significant strides in cost reductions for their plastic molds. It's all hearsay, but it would definitely be a goal with competent 3d printing on the horizon.
It's far lower these days. I've heard (through Kickstarters) that 10-12k USD for a decent sized mold is doable. GW probably pays more having their own mold making capacity, but saves on the production side of things by cutting out the middleman.
Remember that GW routinely makes promotional minis they either give away (Dark Imperium promotional mini) or sell in VERY low quantities at the same price as character models (store anniversary). The cost of molds has to be fairly low to stomach doing that.
John Prins wrote: GW prices seem to be driven by volume (low=$$), shelf space required, with a premium tacked on for awesome or currently OP releases. Right now Land Raiders are low volume and take a lot of shelf space, so GW jacked their price to 'justify' wasting shelf space on them.
That's also self-fulfilling, though. Characters, Land Raiders, etc. would probably sell in much greater quantities if they weren't so expensive to begin with. The only reason I picked one up at all, back in 7th, was because I had a hefty gift card to cover most of it. I think it is clear that GW values high margins over volume of sales tremendously (and erroneously).
Is it still 50-100k? I've heard claims that the industry had made significant strides in cost reductions for their plastic molds. It's all hearsay, but it would definitely be a goal with competent 3d printing on the horizon.
It's far lower these days. I've heard (through Kickstarters) that 10-12k USD for a decent sized mold is doable. GW probably pays more having their own mold making capacity, but saves on the production side of things by cutting out the middleman.
Remember that GW routinely makes promotional minis they either give away (Dark Imperium promotional mini) or sell in VERY low quantities at the same price as character models (store anniversary). The cost of molds has to be fairly low to stomach doing that.
The promo minis is something that illustrates just how little GW kits cost to produce. Freebie push-fit tac marines, even limited edition minis sold for $40 can't possibly cost them much to make. How does a box of infantry, a tank, a knight, or a character with continuous availability somehow cost exponentially more?
John Prins wrote: GW prices seem to be driven by volume (low=$$), shelf space required, with a premium tacked on for awesome or currently OP releases. Right now Land Raiders are low volume and take a lot of shelf space, so GW jacked their price to 'justify' wasting shelf space on them.
This is illogical and not consistent with how GW manages shelves. When new product comes in older product goes to webstore only. GW literally has no incentive to "punish" a model that isn't selling well. There are also myriad other kits that are useful that had price increases - including Start Collecting boxes.
Ernestas wrote: Edit: If those Bloodcrushers from GW store would have unlimited poses I would be more inclined toward purchasing them, but I can't tell the difference between my plastic sprues and theirs. I also paid for Wrath and Rapture set exactly 88,88 euros. I get Khornish vibes out there! HELP!
You seem like a reasonable man.
There are roughly eight-hundred-quadrillion times more ways to shuffle a deck of cards than atoms on Earth, but after some time solitaire will start feeling samey. My Warmachine models have even more ways how I can arrange them, but that doesn't mean that those combinations are at all meaningful to us. What I had meant is that model should have some creative freedom at how you put details together. This is achieved my making special joints which can be glued at different angles. GW on the other hand decided to create moulds which casts model in more or less random places. This makes it impossible to glue model in any other way than it is intended and every model will look the same. Warmachine on the other hand allows you to do small adjustments in how your arms and weapons are glued. How you decide to glue your legs on. These small things makes me so much happier, because it means that my model is genuinely unique. I put that little bit of personality to each which might be invisible to others, but makes my model distinguishable from any other model even if they would get mixed up with no painting.
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queen_annes_revenge wrote: Pretty soon GW, or at least forge world will be forced to offer pay monthly price plans for their models. You can always look east though.
I saw monthly payment plans for miniature hobbies already. I think it is great idea, but I'm not sure about ForgeWorld. Those plans were for complex projects, you know, like Tiger 2 tank with more than 18,000 individual pieces. So they could just send your model bit by bit as you progress. A lot of that we have is overpriced even if I would be willing to pay those prices.
harlokin wrote: To what extent do the expensive steel moulds that GW use for their plastics affect their likely pricing thought process?
Pretty majorly, I'd have thought. That was always touted as the reason for single characters being comparatively expensive - GW generally expect to sell less of them but the mould costs about the same to make, and they have to recoup that cost.
I do wonder if they couldn't economise by putting multiple character models that were designed at the same time on the same mould and separating them for packaging - e.g. for Drukhari you could, for instance, have a single mould that produces 1 x Archon, 1 x Succubus and 1 x Haemonculus. I'd expect them to all sell at roughly similar levels, and I imagine it'd be cheaper to have a few extra of the less popular model(s) in stock than it would be to make an extra mould so they could be manufactured separately.
Maybe they already do this?
Some companies do that, but I do not think that it should apply to GW. They are selling an entire range of miniatures which are interconnected. They are selling you an impression of lively universe and game first. This is a big deal. For example, supermarkets do sell stuff on which they lose money, because they need to create variety. Nobody would want to go to shop which has just bestsellers. If they would have any sense they would not do such silly things and instead would subsidize unpopular models with popular models.
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Big Mac wrote: I had done 2 sets of the new flesh hounds about a month and half ago for commissions; there are no gaps, if anything it’s hid by the way the parts come together. My bet is that you didn’t follow instructions or didn’t clean the mold clippings, most likely glued the head together before attaching to the body, where you’re suppose to attach one half around the tongue, then the other half.
I did glued head once, but I managed to fit it anyways. Though I do follow instructions and I kept clearing the mold despite how annoying it was. Despite that I noticed that on some models miniscule gaps appear, not big enough to be noticed after painting though. Part of this is because that GW models for some reason has strange molds. Some parts are hard to fit in nicely. Especially their plastic glue which is annoying and can easily spill over the edge and keep melting your miniature. They could improve their models greatly by making gluing of a joints by pushing one side beneath another instead of gluing edges. Also, more sensible molds could help. Yesterday I was assembling Infernal Enrapturess and it was everything what I had just said. Some places didn't even had prepared place for gluing. Man's leg for example doesn't have prepared place to glue her leg on. Leg itself is glued to her tight which in reality is incredibly small. It was very unpleasant model to glue and very fragile, difficult to work with.
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catbarf wrote: I think the pricing on Start Collecting and army boxes is a clear example of anchoring. Putting an individual box at $60 sets the perceived value of that kit at $60, and then a $90 SC that includes that kit plus a bunch of other stuff seems like a bargain- even when it's still terribly expensive compared to non-GW miniatures.
Also, now that GW has moved to plastics for everything, kits that are expected to sell in fewer quantities (eg characters) are priced higher so as to more quickly recoup their mold cost. This is why you see $30 characters coming on itty bitty sprues. GW also has some products that are most definitely loss leaders, while others make up for it.
The most important thing to remember is that the actual production cost of a plastic kit- just injection molded plastic and printed paper and cardboard- is negligible, as is transportation and storage. GW's costs are almost purely operational, like wages for their employees and rent for their facilities, which are minimally impacted by volume sale. The primary cost for each new kit introduced is design time plus an up-front cost of ~$50-100k for each injection mold sprue, which then is amortized over time through sales.
From a marketing perspective, this makes GW more similar to a music, film, or videogame company, where the physical product (a CD/DVD in a box) is dirt-cheap to manufacture, and the price is determined more by expected volume of sale at an arbitrary price point. If you analyze their business from this perspective it makes a lot more sense- not to suggest that everyone should be happy with GW's prices, but there is method to the madness.
Thank you for explaining. I'm surprised that molds cost so much. I would think that for low scale production you could get with a lot cheaper mold. Though, I would disagree on pricing. I buy Warmachine, Infinity, I'm interested and in Fire and Sword. Practically everyone has lower quality minis. They have smaller prices too, but not by a massive difference if you compare cost efficiency to those anchoring sets as you put it. Warmachine in particular, you are paying 100 euros for a single unit which is rough equivalent to Lord of War. GW also charges over 100 euros for similar size units, but theirs is just that much nicer to look at. They also tend to have a lot more details than their uninspired robots. That is interesting to me is how historical miniatures can be so cheap by comparison. They cost 200-900 euros, but you get thousands upon thousands of individual parts and level of details are immense.
DoomMouse wrote: I feel they have core units that they often discount, things like intercessors, tactical marines, terminators that are quite easy to get hold of via discounted bundles in numerous ways.
Yep, this is why I haven't bought anything for Tau in like 8 years, it's always those BLEEPING useless Crisis Suits, Ethereals and Fire Warriors you already have way too many of anyway in those things.
And the only things I want for Tau are the most overpriced, for example there's no reason other than greed a Ghostkeel is 40% more expensive than a flyer or a tank. To hell with that. It's not even that useful for most people on the tabletop. And I live 1500 kilometers from the closest GW store so I'm not paying for them to flush my money down a toilet to keep those useless things running.
You should check out ebay from time to time. By looking internationally you can find pretty good deals from time to time. Though, shipping is that killing it most of the time. For example, I had found new, unassembled 9 Bloodcrushers being sold in France right now. I do not want to buy anything more this month, but if I would need those, I would buy it. It is 9 Bloodcrushers for 50 euros +25 euros shipping. If you get lucky, buy something more for combined shipping. On ebay it is always better to go big with same seller.
John Prins wrote: GW prices seem to be driven by volume (low=$$), shelf space required, with a premium tacked on for awesome or currently OP releases. Right now Land Raiders are low volume and take a lot of shelf space, so GW jacked their price to 'justify' wasting shelf space on them.
This is illogical and not consistent with how GW manages shelves. When new product comes in older product goes to webstore only. GW literally has no incentive to "punish" a model that isn't selling well. There are also myriad other kits that are useful that had price increases - including Start Collecting boxes.
Even if it would be true, GW could simply put those unpopular models in various bundles and sell them as some kind of an army reinforcement packs, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for amount of poses, I had figured out a way to allow same level of customization to GW models too, completely by accident. I use plastic glue, a terrible stuff, do not know why GW pushes it. This glue works by melting surface of plastic which contracts with time and becomes solid. So, I had poured enough glue on joint that it became just a mass of sludge. In this sludge after several minutes I had found out that I can shift my arms to considerable degree considering what joint I had to work with. I find that to be just hilarious.
Simply they charge what they think they can get away with. They keep upping the prices because they can get away with it. If sales slow you might see a cap finally. I think $40 for a tiny plastic character is insane when compared to a rhino... but I still buy it anyway.
harlokin wrote: To what extent do the expensive steel moulds that GW use for their plastics affect their likely pricing thought process?
Pretty majorly, I'd have thought. That was always touted as the reason for single characters being comparatively expensive - GW generally expect to sell less of them but the mould costs about the same to make, and they have to recoup that cost.
I do wonder if they couldn't economise by putting multiple character models that were designed at the same time on the same mould and separating them for packaging - e.g. for Drukhari you could, for instance, have a single mould that produces 1 x Archon, 1 x Succubus and 1 x Haemonculus. I'd expect them to all sell at roughly similar levels, and I imagine it'd be cheaper to have a few extra of the less popular model(s) in stock than it would be to make an extra mould so they could be manufactured separately.
Maybe they already do this?
Yeah I don't buy that whole " well reason you don't get new stuff is because of moulds are expensive" if that was the case why the feth can they justify producing several "limited" Space marine LT, Cptains, Chrstmas gobbo, weird dwarf santa thing etc ??
Surely making a new character model for a faction in plastic (like say a necron HQ) and then producing that same sprue for 15 years will give you a much better return than some poxy one season limited edition christams santa…
They are creatively dry or incompetent but not resource/investment capital dry.
@ OP The GW pricing model has been an enigma for years and years... For example Dire Avenger boxes went from a 10 man unit to a 5 man unit and rose in price... The Lizardmen starting box is cheaper then getting a carnosaur on its own pretty much.
Its all about that intitial bargain disount box to make you feel like you are getting a good deal then jacking the price of everything else. Surely if 3rd party retailers can sell at 20-15% just imagine the markup GW gets when selling premium...
FW is a bit of a different animal all together. It seems they do not want to sell you stuff as they stealth delete things without notice. Why not announce stuff going OOP and rake in huge orders from people who want stuff but are riding the fence 2 months in advance? If I knew carmine dragon and magma dragon were going to get removed Id have bit the bullet and bough these kits instead of waiting to buy them in 2 months time and budgeting if I knew it would become unavailable.
Thank god for the second hand market. If it wasn't for that I think I wouldn't hobby.
Eihnlazer wrote: They definitely overprice on some of their models when comparing to others.
Why does a single tyrranid biovore cost as much as a 10 man of troops for example, when you can take 3 biovores in a single unit.
Why did they jack land raider prices up to $75 when they are using basically the same kit they sold for $50 8 years ago? The molds have to be paid off already, and inflation hasn't gone up 50%.
Im completely fine with the mentality of "If they pay for it, we priced it right", but arbitrary price jacks do not seem like the best way to grow your market.
I sometimes have a feeling that GW is whale hunting as it is described in the Gaming industy.
And parade exemples are new models / HQ.
Exception wierdly enough a recentish one was the adversaries from BSF, which were extremely cheap. But it is the only one in recent times beyond the bundles.
They are.
They've done an excellent job using social media and marketing to convince the community that they "changed." They haven't.
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Keramory wrote: Simply they charge what they think they can get away with. They keep upping the prices because they can get away with it. If sales slow you might see a cap finally. I think $40 for a tiny plastic character is insane when compared to a rhino... but I still buy it anyway.
Stop. You buy it anyways and they just become encouraged.
Well, it depends on what you consider a bad deal or being tricked. I bought all those big boxes form GW and I'm very happy with my purchases. You get 10-20% discount depending from where you purchase and free shipping. I got Soul Wars for 112 euros. That is 52 models, bunch of accessories and core rule book. That is little more than 2 euros per model. I consider it to be a great price. In same manner, Dark Imperium set has identical value. Wrath and Rapture is more expensive set, but it still clocks amazing less than 3 euros per model value. If you would take a loot to third party producers, you won't find anything cheaper. GW might be producing their models from cheap plastic which is just bad, but they still come with a lot of details and great esthetic. Third party producers often are hit and miss. Even then, raging heroes ask for more than 10 euros per their resin model. Any other producer will ask around 8 euros per their model. If we talking plastic or metal, it isn't much better. Infinity models are rather uninspired and bland for the most part. Warmachine plastic costs same amount, but their quality is garbage by comparison. They have some hits, but especially their individual heroes often tend to come in quite bad shape and they expect 12-18 euros per single model which has zero complexity. It is like 2-3 part model...
I do not have problem with prices that GW asks for, that I'm bothered is utterly nonsensical deals on some models and generally erratic pricing policy. When you expect models to be expensive, they are well priced by GW standards. When you check out random model, they have insane price for what they are.
Third party producers often are hit and miss. Even then, raging heroes ask for more than 10 euros per their resin model. Any other producer will ask around 8 euros per their model.
That explains a lot. Recasts here cost a lot less then 10 euro per model.
Plus the cost per model isn't as important as in how much the army costs. If a model costs even 5 euro per model, but you need 20 of them, it is way different then when a box of 10 models costing 60 euro, but you need 90+ models and some of them cost 100 euro on their own.
For example, I want to get some historical wargaming miniatures. For a starter army I'm looking paying around 67 euros for 72 models. These are the cheapest wargaming options, but you are paying for 15 mm scale models which are pretty much worthless on their own. Only useful in great quantities for mass battles. For 8 Winged Hussars I need to pay over 30 euros. A single model costs around 5 euros, more or less. Bundles usually come as 2 euros per piece in value. I was looking at a lot of third party suppliers, it is about the same everywhere and GW is in an upper end of a spectrum in regards to their pricing. That really gets them is their inconsistent pricing. Some models are reasonably priced, some are not. Though, with GW products you know that they are all good looking as a rule of thumb. When you have third party suppliers, they have a lot of duds among their sculpts. Other problem is that they present online a lot greater level of detail while in reality quality of their products are a lot lower. A good example is Warmachine. They are selling warcasters for 10-20 euros, but their quality often is questionable.
Here is review of third party Fate Weaver:
While it looks good and it is viable alternative to a lot more expensive (real price of greater demons from GW are under 100 euros. This one costs 35 euros) FateWeaver from GW. I still say that GW FateWeaver looks a lot better overall. His kit is also a lot bigger by comparison though amount of parts does not indicate quality. In this case I would always pay more and go for GW product, because even if it is more expensive, it is of better quality. Third party retailers like this are great in providing stuff which GW does not provide for your tastes. It also helps a lot by giving you options. I for example despise GW Slaanesh model line. Practically anything from third party is a lot better. It is god sent to have options like lust elves out there to supplement or to replace your models.
Say what you want about GW prices, but production seems to be at capacity and new product consistently sells out on release. Any time making old stock could have been making newer product (which demonstrably sells faster, so in that way is more profitable).
Seeing as production is maxed out (the factory is almost constantly running) and sales are maxed out I have to say we might be lucky GW doesn’t charge more than they already do!
For me the real point of interest will be what happens when GW’s new premises opens up. It is in part a factory expansion, right? Maybe they’ll be able to produce more units than can be sold at current prices, meaning some kind of moratorium on price raises in the future or a way to cheaply produce old kits without stepping on the toes of new??
I would say that it holds true for their newest, most in demand items. They always have shortages for those and then several more mundane models gets unexpectedly too popular and they run out. Miniatures are an interesting business, demand of practically anything they produce is very high until everybody has their desired model. Then demand is very low. You lose money for making a new model, but not for making more of a same. This is where I have beef with GW. Why make old models which still maintain similar level of quality obsolete? Just print massive amounts of those models, put them in storage and shut down machine which makes those models. Here, solution to all our problems. Old models will be sold out of stocks which costs them very little to make and they will be free to make new ones. Now they just decide to cut randomly whatever they do not like without bothering to produce any more miniatures.
The point about character costs being down to the moulds seems odd to me. If we look at the primaris ones, they are (i think) less than half the size of a full sprue size (i.e. the big multi-troop ones), so if their machines have standard sized moulds you should be able to get two character sprues out of each fullsize mould.
then most of the primaris troop boxes come with two separate, different sprues, i.e. you could get 4 character units from the same amount of moulds as one unit of intecessors or aggressors, yet we're talking £90 vs £30-35 for them. maybe their setup makes splitting the sprues from one mould into two different boxes hard, but that doesn't seem like it could be that hard a fix
The thing is, for GW to produce this stuff costs next to nothing. We are talking about cents here when everything is set up. In the end, they eat design cost for a new unit and then decide how they should price it. What people would be happy to pay for this model. This is how they can produce a lot of models like blue horrors very cheaply while they sell individual characters over 20 euros.
While amount of sprues usually mean how expensive this model was to make, when they are making and selling them, all that matters is how they can price them. Individual heroes and units will have a lot lower sell volume. For example, how often do you see Skulltaker model? Slaughterpriest? Scyla Anfingrimm? Now, how often you see Primaris Space marines? See, this is why some units have to cost more. You essentially have similar costs to manufacture both. You need several people to come up with design, 3D models. Then you need to order that exact mold. One model will sell 1 copy for every 100 copies of most popular and basic unit. That 1 unpopular model has to cover its own cost and pay it back to be a worthwhile effort. This is why you see such inconsistency in how much each plastic sprue is worth. It is a lot easier to sell a lot of plastic for a low price when demand is low like horde units while individual units will always have low demand, thus price is high.
Two thoughts:
#1: GW should absolutely close most (if not all) of their brick and mortar stores, I understand in the UK it might make sense but in the US it is not only a waste of money but a direct competition with the FLGS that also sells the product AND in many cases does more to support the hobby through tournaments, etc and is way better advertising...only GW customers ever walk into a GW store, but a local store is going to have everything from die-hard Magic players to board gamers and model airplane builders visiting, walking right by a wall of prime GW advertising. And online sales work just fine for most people.
#2: GW hasn't yet bought onto the idea that lower prices increase sales volume and in turn, profits. They sell their product like a luxury item, which limits it's broader appeal. There is a price point at which a given customer suddenly is more likely to buy your product, and other companies do a fair bit of research to figure out exactly where that is.But even within the current customer base there are examples, like the Caladius Grav-Tank. You could buy them from FW for $138, or from a recaster for $50, and that was low enough that tons of people said "screw it I'll spend $150 on a winning 630 pt bolt-on to my army" and that was with BETA RULES, not even the finalized version. So if the price is low enough, you enable meta-chasing and can profit from changing rules.
Ernestas wrote: I would say that it holds true for their newest, most in demand items. They always have shortages for those and then several more mundane models gets unexpectedly too popular and they run out. Miniatures are an interesting business, demand of practically anything they produce is very high until everybody has their desired model. Then demand is very low. You lose money for making a new model, but not for making more of a same. This is where I have beef with GW. Why make old models which still maintain similar level of quality obsolete? Just print massive amounts of those models, put them in storage and shut down machine which makes those models. Here, solution to all our problems. Old models will be sold out of stocks which costs them very little to make and they will be free to make new ones. Now they just decide to cut randomly whatever they do not like without bothering to produce any more miniatures.
You have no idea how much warehouse space costs, do you? Boxes of miniatures are bulky, so storing them long term is a big expense. Sure, you could run off 10000 boxes of Intercessors for the long run, but that probably eats 100 cubic meters of warehouse space at X dollars/pounds a month. If they don't sell as fast as you thought, you end up losing money rather than making a profit. Far better to run 1000-2000 at a time and reprint them when supplies run low in a year's time. GW probably has this figured out by now and only strange things like codex creep turning old units super good throws them off and runs them out of stock of particular product, all on MINIMUM possible print runs.
nareik wrote:Greyknight how do you propose making more models to ‘sell in volume’ when their factory is already running at capacity practically 24/7?
GW's factory is at capacity because they neglected to invest in their own capabilities for too long. This is their problem. When the addition opens, will we see prices drop as their production volume increases? Lower prices would mean even greater demand. If GW were unable or unwilling to further expand production to capitalize on that, that is their fault.
Ernestas wrote:The thing is, for GW to produce this stuff costs next to nothing. We are talking about cents here when everything is set up. In the end, they eat design cost for a new unit and then decide how they should price it. What people would be happy to pay for this model. This is how they can produce a lot of models like blue horrors very cheaply while they sell individual characters over 20 euros.
While amount of sprues usually mean how expensive this model was to make, when they are making and selling them, all that matters is how they can price them. Individual heroes and units will have a lot lower sell volume. For example, how often do you see Skulltaker model? Slaughterpriest? Scyla Anfingrimm? Now, how often you see Primaris Space marines? See, this is why some units have to cost more. You essentially have similar costs to manufacture both. You need several people to come up with design, 3D models. Then you need to order that exact mold. One model will sell 1 copy for every 100 copies of most popular and basic unit. That 1 unpopular model has to cover its own cost and pay it back to be a worthwhile effort. This is why you see such inconsistency in how much each plastic sprue is worth. It is a lot easier to sell a lot of plastic for a low price when demand is low like horde units while individual units will always have low demand, thus price is high.
Character models sell at a lower volume because of the pricing. Were they cheaper, people would buy more not only to play GW games with but to convert, use in RPGs, and so on.
greyknight12 wrote: Two thoughts:
#1: GW should absolutely close most (if not all) of their brick and mortar stores,
#2: GW hasn't yet bought onto the idea that lower prices increase sales volume and in turn, profits.
GW's brick and mortar stores have a huge advantage over most independent retailers - they hang around in the long term. There are a handful of gaming stores that last more than a few years in any market. Most shut down in 3-5 years, it's a HARD business model. In a lot of regions GW is the only retail presence that actually bothers having tables/terrain for wargaming, not to mention staff that actually know how to model/paint as opposed to a hybrid comic/wargaming/roleplaying game/anime store.
As to point #2, there's no reason for GW to buy into that idea. They're selling at capacity and despite what people might think, it's not a truly expensive hobby, it's a middle class income or single-person-with-disposable-income hobby.
Ernestas wrote: For example, I want to get some historical wargaming miniatures. For a starter army I'm looking paying around 67 euros for 72 models. These are the cheapest wargaming options, but you are paying for 15 mm scale models which are pretty much worthless on their own. Only useful in great quantities for mass battles. For 8 Winged Hussars I need to pay over 30 euros. A single model costs around 5 euros, more or less. Bundles usually come as 2 euros per piece in value. I was looking at a lot of third party suppliers, it is about the same everywhere and GW is in an upper end of a spectrum in regards to their pricing. That really gets them is their inconsistent pricing. Some models are reasonably priced, some are not. Though, with GW products you know that they are all good looking as a rule of thumb. When you have third party suppliers, they have a lot of duds among their sculpts. Other problem is that they present online a lot greater level of detail while in reality quality of their products are a lot lower. A good example is Warmachine. They are selling warcasters for 10-20 euros, but their quality often is questionable.
Here is review of third party Fate Weaver:
While it looks good and it is viable alternative to a lot more expensive (real price of greater demons from GW are under 100 euros. This one costs 35 euros) FateWeaver from GW. I still say that GW FateWeaver looks a lot better overall. His kit is also a lot bigger by comparison though amount of parts does not indicate quality. In this case I would always pay more and go for GW product, because even if it is more expensive, it is of better quality. Third party retailers like this are great in providing stuff which GW does not provide for your tastes. It also helps a lot by giving you options. I for example despise GW Slaanesh model line. Practically anything from third party is a lot better. It is god sent to have options like lust elves out there to supplement or to replace your models.
I do not know why, but GW really missed mark with a lot of their demons. Especially Slaanesh.
The official GW greater demons are better in your opinion. I find them too large, and much too busy. Aside from the Great Unclean One, which is a lovely sculpt I would enjoy painting and finding a gaming use for were it not so stupidly priced.
GW stores are far more than just selling product. Granted the UK might be a cut above many other regions that seem to vary somewhat; but they are hobby stores not just sales stores.
GW staff (again in the UK) are not just there to push models, but teach how to build, paint, convert, play. They organise play evenings and focus on selling GW product above all else. Considering that the general view from many 3rd party stores is that wargames are nice, but MTG or Yugio or other card games are not only cheaper to buy into; but generate far more profit in general means that without a hobby store owner who WANTS to sell wargames; the wargame scene could suffer (at the very least in GW's eyes).
For GW those hobby stores are a fantastic resource. Heck for the USA my impression is that many regions don't have hobby clubs and that the majority play either at home (one or two friends) or in the shop. So that's even more argument to have a GW store on the highstreet that is supplying hobby and model resources and also space to play.
GW certainly pays a heavy price for the stores, but at the same time you can't deny that they serve a major point for helping keep GW on the radar as the market leader. If other companies could open their own stores like GW you can bet many would love to be able to directly engage, market and recruit; most other companies have to rely heavily on community representative initiatives. And we've all seen the massive nosedive that warmachine/Hordes took when they had to get rid of theirs (noting that it was not the only thing, but it certainly made a serious contribution).
greyknight12 wrote: Two thoughts:
#1: GW should absolutely close most (if not all) of their brick and mortar stores,
#2: GW hasn't yet bought onto the idea that lower prices increase sales volume and in turn, profits.
GW's brick and mortar stores have a huge advantage over most independent retailers - they hang around in the long term. There are a handful of gaming stores that last more than a few years in any market. Most shut down in 3-5 years, it's a HARD business model. In a lot of regions GW is the only retail presence that actually bothers having tables/terrain for wargaming, not to mention staff that actually know how to model/paint as opposed to a hybrid comic/wargaming/roleplaying game/anime store.
As to point #2, there's no reason for GW to buy into that idea. They're selling at capacity and despite what people might think, it's not a truly expensive hobby, it's a middle class income or single-person-with-disposable-income hobby.
#1 Yes, they do have a huge advantage, which is why myself and others would prefer they disappear, so small local businesses can flourish, which lowering prices.
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
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Overread wrote: GW stores are far more than just selling product. Granted the UK might be a cut above many other regions that seem to vary somewhat; but they are hobby stores not just sales stores.
GW staff (again in the UK) are not just there to push models, but teach how to build, paint, convert, play. They organise play evenings and focus on selling GW product above all else. Considering that the general view from many 3rd party stores is that wargames are nice, but MTG or Yugio or other card games are not only cheaper to buy into; but generate far more profit in general means that without a hobby store owner who WANTS to sell wargames; the wargame scene could suffer (at the very least in GW's eyes).
For GW those hobby stores are a fantastic resource. Heck for the USA my impression is that many regions don't have hobby clubs and that the majority play either at home (one or two friends) or in the shop. So that's even more argument to have a GW store on the highstreet that is supplying hobby and model resources and also space to play.
GW certainly pays a heavy price for the stores, but at the same time you can't deny that they serve a major point for helping keep GW on the radar as the market leader. If other companies could open their own stores like GW you can bet many would love to be able to directly engage, market and recruit; most other companies have to rely heavily on community representative initiatives. And we've all seen the massive nosedive that warmachine/Hordes took when they had to get rid of theirs (noting that it was not the only thing, but it certainly made a serious contribution).
That's just it, though. GW doesn't pay the price for their "hobby centers." We do. Through high prices, and watching indie shops close.
Considering most independent stores charge less than an official GW store for the same product and an indie store can stock WAY more ranges of stuff outside of GW products - I'd wager GW isn't running many indie shops out of business that weren't already on the rocks.
Also lowering prices might not happen as you think; if GW closed stores and now only sold through 3rd parties then whilst, in theory, GW hasn't got to pay for its own stores upkeep, it has to compete with ALL the other brands. IT might make for lower prices; esp as GW slashes their 800+ product lineup down in size to make it fit into cluttered competitive stores.
Or GW wouldn't lower prices because everything would go direct order only, coupled toa reduction (over time) in the fanbase because of increased competition from the 3rd party stores not pushing GW products on their own. Heck a 3rd party might well push other wargames or other product lines entirely based on what makes the most profit/what interests the store keeper.
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
It's easily affordable by anyone making a living wage. You can talk about nebulous 'value' all you want, but people pay hundreds of dollars to go to sports venues for a couple hours of entertainment. Same with a music concert. A single night at the bar can go through a hundred bucks pretty easily. People throw their money away on tobacco all the time. I do none of these things because they don't represent 'value' to me either. I do get a lot of enjoyment from building and painting miniatures that I like. Games Workshop is the elephant in the room - it's the easiest to get in a game of 40k or AoS than anything else, and that's how they get away with the increased price compared to the rest of the market. I could buy lots of miniatures from cheaper alternatives like Mantic (and, in fact, I have), but my chances of actually playing those games is pretty low, so their 'value' is far lower, especially when I have to deal with inferior materials (like Mantic's restic, bleurgh).
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of instances where GW has priced me out of stuff - especially single plastic HQ models - with their wonky pricing, but with Start Collecting and Battleforce Boxes I've managed to build armies at reasonable prices so that the odd big kit doesn't really bother me, and I'm not making big bucks, I'm well below average household income in my region.
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
It's easily affordable by anyone making a living wage. You can talk about nebulous 'value' all you want, but people pay hundreds of dollars to go to sports venues for a couple hours of entertainment. Same with a music concert. A single night at the bar can go through a hundred bucks pretty easily. People throw their money away on tobacco all the time. I do none of these things because they don't represent 'value' to me either. I do get a lot of enjoyment from building and painting miniatures that I like. Games Workshop is the elephant in the room - it's the easiest to get in a game of 40k or AoS than anything else, and that's how they get away with the increased price compared to the rest of the market. I could buy lots of miniatures from cheaper alternatives like Mantic (and, in fact, I have), but my chances of actually playing those games is pretty low, so their 'value' is far lower, especially when I have to deal with inferior materials (like Mantic's restic, bleurgh).
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of instances where GW has priced me out of stuff - especially single plastic HQ models - with their wonky pricing, but with Start Collecting and Battleforce Boxes I've managed to build armies at reasonable prices so that the odd big kit doesn't really bother me, and I'm not making big bucks, I'm well below average household income in my region.
I have been priced out, but even if that was not the case, GW prices would still be rip-offs. Regardless of budget. I can get more minis for far less from other, smaller companies. Sporting events and concerts are innately more expensive to put on (cost of production absolutely matters when discussing the value of goods and services) and are experiences, which are inherently more valuable. GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
They are building factories. I'm sure they can afford some shack in a middle of nowhere to store their stuff. Heck, even bigger companies have massive buildings with spacious rooms of dubious purposes. We have an entire swimming pool with everything which company had abandoned in our basement. We could fill it with thousands of stacked boxes. We are talking about supporting the hobby here, but when it comes to smallest of sacrifices, it is suddenly too expensive.
I do not know what is this pricing problem you are talking about. Do you know how much I earn by your standards? No more than 15,000 euros annually. I live in developing country and my wage is quite huge by comparison. Yet, I still pay same price as you who could get some worthless job at supermarket and within a day earn more than I do! Any cents that you have left over as disposable income will buy a lot more of GW products. I think it is more of a mentality problem. People hate to calculate how much they had spent on GW miniatures, but they do not try to count how much they spent on poisoning themselves via smoking.
Blastaar wrote: GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
Measuring the value of a sculpture (even a mass-produced one) by the cost of the plastic makes about as much sense as measuring the value of a painting by the cost of the paint and canvas.
greyknight12 wrote: Two thoughts:
#1: GW should absolutely close most (if not all) of their brick and mortar stores, I understand in the UK it might make sense but in the US it is not only a waste of money but a direct competition with the FLGS that also sells the product AND in many cases does more to support the hobby through tournaments, etc and is way better advertising...only GW customers ever walk into a GW store, but a local store is going to have everything from die-hard Magic players to board gamers and model airplane builders visiting, walking right by a wall of prime GW advertising. And online sales work just fine for most people.
#2: GW hasn't yet bought onto the idea that lower prices increase sales volume and in turn, profits. They sell their product like a luxury item, which limits it's broader appeal. There is a price point at which a given customer suddenly is more likely to buy your product, and other companies do a fair bit of research to figure out exactly where that is.But even within the current customer base there are examples, like the Caladius Grav-Tank. You could buy them from FW for $138, or from a recaster for $50, and that was low enough that tons of people said "screw it I'll spend $150 on a winning 630 pt bolt-on to my army" and that was with BETA RULES, not even the finalized version. So if the price is low enough, you enable meta-chasing and can profit from changing rules.
I don't know how profitable or good GW stores are. There aren't any here and our local hobby shops are fundamental in building and maintaining communities around all games. It is right, in these shops they have to compete with other games, but Warhammer is a big boy now. Nearly everyone knows it. It has huge player base. It could compete with other games in other games, but would it be more effective. GW stores are form of marketing and marketing is inherently expensive, but important. Nobody can show any numbers here, but if GW stores are losing money, the first thing which happens during recession is trimming of fat. There is high chance that less popular stores would be closed and GW would shift towards more digital form of business.
I have been priced out, but even if that was not the case, GW prices would still be rip-offs. Regardless of budget. I can get more minis for far less from other, smaller companies. Sporting events and concerts are innately more expensive to put on (cost of production absolutely matters when discussing the value of goods and services) and are experiences, which are inherently more valuable. GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
But I'll definitely 'experience' more wargames having 40k and AoS armies than I would owning cheaper games that nobody in my area plays. Yes, it's a self fulfilling prophecy, but for most GW really is the only game in town. Even in more prolific gaming environments I'll have an easier time finding a game with GW product. I've bought into plenty of other, cheaper games because I liked the miniatures and/or rules. Very few of them did I ever find many opponents outside of conventions. A game I can't play is a bigger waste of money/time than a game with 'overpriced' miniatures.
referring to GW as not expensive and then comparing it to things like sporting venues i think is not the cleanest way to point out the cost. everything has a value, though said value is on some level subjective.
I'm someone who tries to draw as much value per dollar as i possibly can out of anything. when I say GW is expensive, it is compared to anything id otherwise purchase, which is withi modeling, but also cheaper hobbies on the side, including to some gaming. inside it's own industry type, it absorbs that due to it's fanbase size and it's age despite how the larger games have a much bigger scale then most of the market. it has it's reasons, but it still asks money to high for my liking compared to where id spend the cash. when you can and often do squeeze a lot more potential enjoyment out of a lot less than a box of troops, it sours that exchange. for example, for a number of reasons, i do not think riptides or stormsurges are worth the expense. i would sooner use a bandai models to replicate them if i ever bothered, because of the differences stylistically provided along with the cost.
thing is, GW is well at the point where I know they will remain a bit to much for me to like based on how i value things. and when I see a new model coming and can call exactly the price, I know it'll stay that way. they've lined up their situation and for the majority of the base, they have the pricing that is going well for them. doesn't change the fact that I know folks who just won't look at it due to the way they value things, despite liking the setting, citing GW asks to much.
at this point i just wish GW would actually sell more of the models they make into these box sets. like the cultist sculpts they had, and not keep up with things that turn me away modeling wise.
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
It's easily affordable by anyone making a living wage. You can talk about nebulous 'value' all you want, but people pay hundreds of dollars to go to sports venues for a couple hours of entertainment. Same with a music concert. A single night at the bar can go through a hundred bucks pretty easily. People throw their money away on tobacco all the time. I do none of these things because they don't represent 'value' to me either. I do get a lot of enjoyment from building and painting miniatures that I like. Games Workshop is the elephant in the room - it's the easiest to get in a game of 40k or AoS than anything else, and that's how they get away with the increased price compared to the rest of the market. I could buy lots of miniatures from cheaper alternatives like Mantic (and, in fact, I have), but my chances of actually playing those games is pretty low, so their 'value' is far lower, especially when I have to deal with inferior materials (like Mantic's restic, bleurgh).
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of instances where GW has priced me out of stuff - especially single plastic HQ models - with their wonky pricing, but with Start Collecting and Battleforce Boxes I've managed to build armies at reasonable prices so that the odd big kit doesn't really bother me, and I'm not making big bucks, I'm well below average household income in my region.
This. It is my opinion that miniatures wargaming is actually a pretty inexpensive hobby on the scale of adult hobbies, and is really good value for your dollar.
My Imperial Guard army has a total cost of about $1000. My Sisters army costs more, but it's also Sisters of Battle, and my Space Wolves, Custodes, and Grey Knight armies costs appreciably less. I would average a competitive 40k army to be around $1k, that's like $5000 total for me on 40k and maybe another $300 on DZC and Flames of War.
For comparison with other things that one might do as an adult:
Ski as a hobby: The Ikon season ski pass is $800, the Epic season ski pass is $935. Then there's food and lodging on top of that, and ski resorts have very expensive food. Equipment isn't cheap either, but you can ski on it year after year so it's not so bad.
Go on a vacation: a round-trip airfare to HNL from the mainland costs between $500 and $800. If you can't stay with your family like I, a hotel will cost you like $200 a night. Then you've got to eat, and unless you eat L&L and McDonalds for every meal, that's going to add up a lot too.
Play Video Games: A gaming computer costs between like $500 and $1200. A big-name video game cost like $40-$60 up front, with more down the line as DLC's.
Drink: My friend spent an average of $50 a week being lonely at the bar. In the same vein as coffee, by the time you've spent $50 at a bar, are you really enjoying it any more just to pee it out in an hour? And I wonder why I avoid the bars.
Eat out: The average price of a starbucks coffee is $2.75. Lunch at a restaurant is like ~$10-$15. If you drink a coffee every morning [which you will proceed to pee back out in an hour], you could buy a box of miniatures every month. If you eat lunch out regularly [multiple times a week], you could buy a box of miniatures every week. I probably can't build and paint a box a week; I don't finish a box a month.
And miniatures will last you for years. I've been playing for 9 years now, and I know people who've been playing since RT days. Most of the costs above won't cover that activity for one year, much less the 9 I've got out of my IG army.
Basically, if you can afford to have a hobby at all as an adult, you can probably afford to play miniatures wargames. On the other hand, I agree the prices are too high, because it's not really adults who need to be able to afford the hobby IMO, it's high school and younger kids. If we want the hobby to survive, we need to have an influx of young people into the hobby, and the cost of a toy that is much harder to play with than LEGOs and doesn't have the instant gratification of a video game is definitely harder to stomach for people who don't get paid.
I have been priced out, but even if that was not the case, GW prices would still be rip-offs. Regardless of budget. I can get more minis for far less from other, smaller companies. Sporting events and concerts are innately more expensive to put on (cost of production absolutely matters when discussing the value of goods and services) and are experiences, which are inherently more valuable. GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
If you play video games, you're paying $60 for literally nothing. By that metric, getting literally anything physical is a good deal!
The cost of a miniature is in the development cost, the staffing for the factory and company, the dies, the floor space, machines, and operating costs of the factory, paying the "tail", the operating of stores, the staffing of stores, shipping product to stores, expanding the company, and absorbing the cost of products that aren't sold or don't sell as well.
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
It's easily affordable by anyone making a living wage. You can talk about nebulous 'value' all you want, but people pay hundreds of dollars to go to sports venues for a couple hours of entertainment. Same with a music concert. A single night at the bar can go through a hundred bucks pretty easily. People throw their money away on tobacco all the time. I do none of these things because they don't represent 'value' to me either. I do get a lot of enjoyment from building and painting miniatures that I like. Games Workshop is the elephant in the room - it's the easiest to get in a game of 40k or AoS than anything else, and that's how they get away with the increased price compared to the rest of the market. I could buy lots of miniatures from cheaper alternatives like Mantic (and, in fact, I have), but my chances of actually playing those games is pretty low, so their 'value' is far lower, especially when I have to deal with inferior materials (like Mantic's restic, bleurgh).
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of instances where GW has priced me out of stuff - especially single plastic HQ models - with their wonky pricing, but with Start Collecting and Battleforce Boxes I've managed to build armies at reasonable prices so that the odd big kit doesn't really bother me, and I'm not making big bucks, I'm well below average household income in my region.
This. It is my opinion that miniatures wargaming is actually a pretty inexpensive hobby on the scale of adult hobbies, and is really good value for your dollar.
My Imperial Guard army has a total cost of about $1000. My Sisters army costs more, but it's also Sisters of Battle, and my Space Wolves, Custodes, and Grey Knight armies costs appreciably less. I would average a competitive 40k army to be around $1k, that's like $5000 total for me on 40k and maybe another $300 on DZC and Flames of War.
For comparison with other things that one might do as an adult:
Ski as a hobby: The Ikon season ski pass is $800, the Epic season ski pass is $935. Then there's food and lodging on top of that, and ski resorts have very expensive food. Equipment isn't cheap either, but you can ski on it year after year so it's not so bad.
Go on a vacation: a round-trip airfare to HNL from the mainland costs between $500 and $800. If you can't stay with your family like I, a hotel will cost you like $200 a night. Then you've got to eat, and unless you eat L&L and McDonalds for every meal, that's going to add up a lot too.
Play Video Games: A gaming computer costs between like $500 and $1200. A big-name video game cost like $40-$60 up front, with more down the line as DLC's.
Drink: My friend spent an average of $50 a week being lonely at the bar. In the same vein as coffee, by the time you've spent $50 at a bar, are you really enjoying it any more just to pee it out in an hour? And I wonder why I avoid the bars.
Eat out: The average price of a starbucks coffee is $2.75. Lunch at a restaurant is like ~$10-$15. If you drink a coffee every morning [which you will proceed to pee back out in an hour], you could buy a box of miniatures every month. If you eat lunch out regularly [multiple times a week], you could buy a box of miniatures every week. I probably can't build and paint a box a week; I don't finish a box a month.
And miniatures will last you for years. I've been playing for 9 years now, and I know people who've been playing since RT days. Most of the costs above won't cover that activity for one year, much less the 9 I've got out of my IG army.
Basically, if you can afford to have a hobby at all as an adult, you can probably afford to play miniatures wargames. On the other hand, I agree the prices are too high, because it's not really adults who need to be able to afford the hobby IMO, it's high school and younger kids. If we want the hobby to survive, we need to have an influx of young people into the hobby, and the cost of a toy that is much harder to play with than LEGOs and doesn't have the instant gratification of a video game is definitely harder to stomach for people who don't get paid.
I have been priced out, but even if that was not the case, GW prices would still be rip-offs. Regardless of budget. I can get more minis for far less from other, smaller companies. Sporting events and concerts are innately more expensive to put on (cost of production absolutely matters when discussing the value of goods and services) and are experiences, which are inherently more valuable. GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
If you play video games, you're paying $60 for literally nothing. By that metric, getting literally anything physical is a good deal!
The cost of a miniature is in the development cost, the staffing for the factory and company, the dies, the floor space, machines, and operating costs of the factory, paying the "tail", the operating of stores, the staffing of stores, shipping product to stores, expanding the company, and absorbing the cost of products that aren't sold or don't sell as well.
Blastaar wrote: GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
Measuring the value of a sculpture (even a mass-produced one) by the cost of the plastic makes about as much sense as measuring the value of a painting by the cost of the paint and canvas.
That painting is unique, made by hand over many hours. A box of space marines is one of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of boxes, shot out of a mold that was cut to match a design made on a computer. The fact that our minis are mass-produced is the point. Mass-production was invented to be cheap. The cost of design, production, logistics, and staff is widely distributed across the many years and many, many sprues made by that single mold.
Blastaar wrote: GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
Measuring the value of a sculpture (even a mass-produced one) by the cost of the plastic makes about as much sense as measuring the value of a painting by the cost of the paint and canvas.
That painting is unique, made by hand over many hours. A box of space marines is one of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of boxes, shot out of a mold that was cut to match a design made on a computer. The fact that our minis are mass-produced is the point. Mass-production was invented to be cheap. The cost of design, production, logistics, and staff is widely distributed across the many years and many, many sprues made by that single mold.
Whilst GW could lower their prices and still profit, its not as if they are buying islands at head office.
Plus don't forget GW doesn't take out loans - every step of their expansion has been through profits generated by the company and re-invested into the company. This likely puts their costs up because instead of taking out a low repayment loan over 20 years that trickles along; they have to build up their own capital and pay out in one go (or at least in payment stages themselves). Of course the benefit for them is that the economy having a downturn doesn't hurt them as much as other firms since GW doesn't have any loans to keep paying off; the flipside is expansion is somewhat slower than some other major highstreet brands have done over the years. Of course many of those brands are now having to abandon shops and are suffering quite a bit as sales/profits might be down but they still have all the huge loans they took out to repay.
Also you're forgetting that logistics, staff, shop, rent, tax etc... are all ongoing costs not one-off. They are shared by every product; but GW isn't 5 guys in a basement. It's not even 20 guys in a small out of town single building warehouse factory.
Mass production makes things cheaper, up to a point. It's not a simple "everything gets cheaper now". Heck for GW they've some risks with characters and big models like kinghts when making them in injection mould plastic because of the super high cost of the moulds for models that are high price and/or limited in potential sales per customer (characters might sell once per customer of that army).
You can get some rough idea of how much profit GW makes on plastic kits by looking at things like Conquest.
Ordinarily GW sell Chaos Spawn for £25. In Conquest they're £7.99, with hachette taking a cut, and GW still making a presumably healthy profit.
Now, in that case GW is saving on store overheads, and possibly some distribution costs, but still...
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
It's easily affordable by anyone making a living wage. You can talk about nebulous 'value' all you want, but people pay hundreds of dollars to go to sports venues for a couple hours of entertainment. Same with a music concert. A single night at the bar can go through a hundred bucks pretty easily. People throw their money away on tobacco all the time. I do none of these things because they don't represent 'value' to me either. I do get a lot of enjoyment from building and painting miniatures that I like. Games Workshop is the elephant in the room - it's the easiest to get in a game of 40k or AoS than anything else, and that's how they get away with the increased price compared to the rest of the market. I could buy lots of miniatures from cheaper alternatives like Mantic (and, in fact, I have), but my chances of actually playing those games is pretty low, so their 'value' is far lower, especially when I have to deal with inferior materials (like Mantic's restic, bleurgh).
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of instances where GW has priced me out of stuff - especially single plastic HQ models - with their wonky pricing, but with Start Collecting and Battleforce Boxes I've managed to build armies at reasonable prices so that the odd big kit doesn't really bother me, and I'm not making big bucks, I'm well below average household income in my region.
This. It is my opinion that miniatures wargaming is actually a pretty inexpensive hobby on the scale of adult hobbies, and is really good value for your dollar.
My Imperial Guard army has a total cost of about $1000. My Sisters army costs more, but it's also Sisters of Battle, and my Space Wolves, Custodes, and Grey Knight armies costs appreciably less. I would average a competitive 40k army to be around $1k, that's like $5000 total for me on 40k and maybe another $300 on DZC and Flames of War.
For comparison with other things that one might do as an adult:
Ski as a hobby: The Ikon season ski pass is $800, the Epic season ski pass is $935. Then there's food and lodging on top of that, and ski resorts have very expensive food. Equipment isn't cheap either, but you can ski on it year after year so it's not so bad.
Go on a vacation: a round-trip airfare to HNL from the mainland costs between $500 and $800. If you can't stay with your family like I, a hotel will cost you like $200 a night. Then you've got to eat, and unless you eat L&L and McDonalds for every meal, that's going to add up a lot too.
Play Video Games: A gaming computer costs between like $500 and $1200. A big-name video game cost like $40-$60 up front, with more down the line as DLC's.
Drink: My friend spent an average of $50 a week being lonely at the bar. In the same vein as coffee, by the time you've spent $50 at a bar, are you really enjoying it any more just to pee it out in an hour? And I wonder why I avoid the bars.
Eat out: The average price of a starbucks coffee is $2.75. Lunch at a restaurant is like ~$10-$15. If you drink a coffee every morning [which you will proceed to pee back out in an hour], you could buy a box of miniatures every month. If you eat lunch out regularly [multiple times a week], you could buy a box of miniatures every week. I probably can't build and paint a box a week; I don't finish a box a month.
Apples and oranges. Skiing is expensive because the resort can only accommodate so many people at once, and to pay for maintenance, machinery and so forth. Video games cost what they do partly because the software and computers used to make them are also expensive, and partly because they sell at $60. Casting is cheaper by the day, plastic is cheap, design is done by salaried staff using a library of assets to copy/paste as much as sculpt, and that mold will be in service for a very long time.
And miniatures will last you for years. I've been playing for 9 years now, and I know people who've been playing since RT days. Most of the costs above won't cover that activity for one year, much less the 9 I've got out of my IG army.
So do my Magic cards- they even keep some value on the secondary market, too! Although the cost to play Magic is exploding, as well. But I can play Commander for little money, I can play pauper competitively with $20-$30 decks- with far deeper gameplay than a GW game to boot!
Instead of piddling my money away on KT and GW minis, I can play Zone Raiders with whatever minis I fancy, and have a far richer experience.
My books last forever, too. Should novels be $70 a pop because they are physical goods?
I can play PS1 games, GameCube games, watch movies over and over.........
Basically, if you can afford to have a hobby at all as an adult, you can probably afford to play miniatures wargames. On the other hand, I agree the prices are too high, because it's not really adults who need to be able to afford the hobby IMO, it's high school and younger kids. If we want the hobby to survive, we need to have an influx of young people into the hobby, and the cost of a toy that is much harder to play with than LEGOs and doesn't have the instant gratification of a video game is definitely harder to stomach for people who don't get paid.
It isn't just that prices are high, it's that they're roughly twice what they could be while remaining profitable, especially if GW would stop pretending their minis are on the same level as a Bugatti.
A GW box of 10 Tactical Marines is $45. I can get 12 Karist Troopers for MEDGe, for $28. That's 4 3-man squads, 2 full 6-man squads, or anything in between. Yes, their plastics are made in china, but GW's customer base is how large? GW has far more resources than Spiral Arm Studios, yet they sell great kits for much less and have written a superb ruleset. What is GW's excuse?
The biggest issue with GW and their pricing is that their kits are such poor gameplay value for your dollar. I don't mean only points-dollar ratio, or raw power, but what one kit adds to the experience of playing. Which isn't very much, on average. Much of this is GW's shallow rules. But 40k, AOS, Necro, BB, etc. are games aren't they? And the minis game pieces?
If you play video games, you're paying $60 for literally nothing. By that metric, getting literally anything physical is a good deal!
Literally incorrect. A video game is a complex sequence of code that was programmed, and rendered, with audio written and recorded, to provide an experience to the player.
The cost of a miniature is in the development cost, the staffing for the factory and company, the dies, the floor space, machines, and operating costs of the factory, paying the "tail", the operating of stores, the staffing of stores, shipping product to stores, expanding the company, and absorbing the cost of products that aren't sold or don't sell as well.
Yes. And that cost is more than paid back across the many years and many sprues made. Most of the cost is design and making the mold, which is recouped severalfold the weekend the new kit is on sale. Then it remains in production for 5, 10, or more years.
Blastaar wrote: GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
Measuring the value of a sculpture (even a mass-produced one) by the cost of the plastic makes about as much sense as measuring the value of a painting by the cost of the paint and canvas.
That painting is unique, made by hand over many hours. A box of space marines is one of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of boxes, shot out of a mold that was cut to match a design made on a computer. The fact that our minis are mass-produced is the point. Mass-production was invented to be cheap. The cost of design, production, logistics, and staff is widely distributed across the many years and many, many sprues made by that single mold.
Whilst GW could lower their prices and still profit, its not as if they are buying islands at head office.
Plus don't forget GW doesn't take out loans - every step of their expansion has been through profits generated by the company and re-invested into the company. This likely puts their costs up because instead of taking out a low repayment loan over 20 years that trickles along; they have to build up their own capital and pay out in one go (or at least in payment stages themselves). Of course the benefit for them is that the economy having a downturn doesn't hurt them as much as other firms since GW doesn't have any loans to keep paying off; the flipside is expansion is somewhat slower than some other major highstreet brands have done over the years. Of course many of those brands are now having to abandon shops and are suffering quite a bit as sales/profits might be down but they still have all the huge loans they took out to repay.
Also you're forgetting that logistics, staff, shop, rent, tax etc... are all ongoing costs not one-off. They are shared by every product; but GW isn't 5 guys in a basement. It's not even 20 guys in a small out of town single building warehouse factory.
Mass production makes things cheaper, up to a point. It's not a simple "everything gets cheaper now". Heck for GW they've some risks with characters and big models like kinghts when making them in injection mould plastic because of the super high cost of the moulds for models that are high price and/or limited in potential sales per customer (characters might sell once per customer of that army).
Right, GW doesn't take out loans because they make so much money that they can pay for everything, including a new factory, out of pocket.
If you play video games, you're paying $60 for literally nothing. By that metric, getting literally anything physical is a good deal!
The cost of a miniature is in the development cost, the staffing for the factory and company, the dies, the floor space, machines, and operating costs of the factory, paying the "tail", the operating of stores, the staffing of stores, shipping product to stores, expanding the company, and absorbing the cost of products that aren't sold or don't sell as well.
The issue i have with comparing this stuff to "adult" hobbies like vacations or skiiing is directly because GW is trying to also compete with the Games market, thus i feel the better comparison is to look at it in light of movies, various gaming things, and so on. long term value, if you like what you get the system doesn't die off somehow (speaking more of miniatures there, not just GW), it does add up, ill grant you that. but it's also more open to the whims of the local area, part of why video games get so much attention due to being usable much more often. some times you get a bustling wargame area, other times it falls off fast and your left holding the remnants.
but on video games in specific, I feel i need to point out that there's a lot in gaming at the "free" to 30 dollar range. some folks can mine a games for hundreds of hours of enjoyable content out whenever they wish for it, folk like me included. the intro to gaming isn't always even 500 dollars anymore, often dipping lower and lower dependent on whether or not the person is mobile gaming or otherwise as an absorbed cost. that said, the cost of a game is also development, staffing and so on as you've listed, albeit not in exactly the same way, and it is something prospective players GW wants to court likely compare to.
but at least miniatures are better than a fair few other options. personally id definitely get some over a comic or a movie ticket, given the choice.
Lord Damocles wrote: You can get some rough idea of how much profit GW makes on plastic kits by looking at things like Conquest.
Ordinarily GW sell Chaos Spawn for £25. In Conquest they're £7.99, with hachette taking a cut, and GW still making a presumably healthy profit.
Now, in that case GW is saving on store overheads, and possibly some distribution costs, but still...
This. Now, perhaps Conquest is a loss leader. But what about the Christmas Red Gobbo? The yearly White Dwarf mini? The anniversary/store birthday minis? If the molds, design, distribution, etc. are as expensive as people claim, how does GW make a profit on minis that they sell in small quantities for such a brief period of time?
If you play video games, you're paying $60 for literally nothing. By that metric, getting literally anything physical is a good deal!
Literally incorrect. A video game is a complex sequence of code that was programmed, and rendered, with audio written and recorded, to provide an experience to the player.
The cost of a miniature is in the development cost, the staffing for the factory and company, the dies, the floor space, machines, and operating costs of the factory, paying the "tail", the operating of stores, the staffing of stores, shipping product to stores, expanding the company, and absorbing the cost of products that aren't sold or don't sell as well.
Yes. And that cost is more than paid back across the many years and many sprues made. Most of the cost is design nd making the mold, which is recouped severalfold the weekend the new kit is on sale. Then it remains in production for 5, 10, or more years.
And the development cost of a video game isn't paid made across the years it's sold for in exactly the same manner?
If you play video games, you're paying $60 for literally nothing. By that metric, getting literally anything physical is a good deal!
Literally incorrect. A video game is a complex sequence of code that was programmed, and rendered, with audio written and recorded, to provide an experience to the player.
The cost of a miniature is in the development cost, the staffing for the factory and company, the dies, the floor space, machines, and operating costs of the factory, paying the "tail", the operating of stores, the staffing of stores, shipping product to stores, expanding the company, and absorbing the cost of products that aren't sold or don't sell as well.
Yes. And that cost is more than paid back across the many years and many sprues made. Most of the cost is design nd making the mold, which is recouped severalfold the weekend the new kit is on sale. Then it remains in production for 5, 10, or more years.
And the development cost of a video game isn't paid made across the years it's sold for in exactly the same manner?
Of course it is. The big difference? A video game is a more-or-less complete experience, (yes yes, EA dllc blah blah blah) a box of Boyz is not. Cuphead, on the computer I already owned out of necessity for modern life, cost me around thirty bucks. A full game.
Wyrd can get away with selling 3-5 minis for ~$30 because you only ever need to buy one of those boxes. A full crew is much cheaper than a 1500 point 40k army. And using those minis is much more interesting than move-roll to hit-roll to wound- roll saves.
Why it is not? I had paid around 150 euros for my Warmachine 25 point army. It is complete list which is completely playable without any further additions for many years. I also have some variety with two heroes and slightly different army composition for those heroes. Same is and for Warhammer. Not everyone plays with 2000 point lists. Nor collecting everything is the point of this hobby. It is like needing to collect every video game for a sake of completeness. Playing Mtg competitively costs several hundred euros + all the stuff you have to buy in general. That is also only if you play one deck and are conservative with your money. Person who plays Mtg on competitive level had confessed to me that over 2 years he had spent 2500 euros on a game! As for more casual play, each play of draft costs you money. You also will buy boosters, decks, card binders. That also costs a lot of money. MtG is not cheap and it has potential in getting to ridiculous heights of tens of thousands of dollars. Playing Commander is not cheap. For a starter deck I paid 35 euros and that price stung.
Apples to oranges. You are comparing Bugatti models who costs hundreds of euros and only provide a single kit. Model lines are not directly comparable to miniatures. They have more parts, detail by comparison, but they also a lot bigger models and they look worse when finished. You have to purchase really expensive kits for them to look any good. This is where you could complain that Forge World needs to bring its prices to actually reasonable level. We all know that they use highly detailed resin. That they are a brand and thus you expect things from them, but still, a lot of their models are ridiculously priced. They got partial price cut recently, but that is far from enough.
Ultimately the value of GW games is, like anything else, in the eye of the beholder. you eaither play it, and buy in, or you don't. I think the people who'd spend 50-100 bucks on a single MTG card are nuts, but apparently some people are willing to do so.
BrianDavion wrote: Ultimately the value of GW games is, like anything else, in the eye of the beholder. you eaither play it, and buy in, or you don't. I think the people who'd spend 50-100 bucks on a single MTG card are nuts, but apparently some people are willing to do so.
Very true. I try to assess my entertainment expenses on a dollar per hour basis. Miniature wargaming compares pretty well to a lot of hobbies or pastimes out there on that basis. Games Workshop being more expensive doesn't shift the calculation that much. I balk at the $45 CAD character models when I could convert a $7 CAD model to work just fine, but that 7 dollar model still takes me a couple hours to build and paint, and the more games I play with it, the better MY tail end on the investment in the hobby. A $2 model I never game with was definitely cheaper, but I'll get far less enjoyment from it in the long term. A lot of the cheaper alternatives aren't real alternatives, at least on the wargaming side. If I just wanted to paint cool minis, I could very well say bye-bye to Games Workshop. But I do rather enjoy actually playing games, and the price of admission isn't breaking my back, though it does color my choices (you won't see 3 Riptides in my Tau army, for example).
It isn't just that prices are high, it's that they're roughly twice what they could be while remaining profitable, especially if GW would stop pretending their minis are on the same level as a Bugatti.
A GW box of 10 Tactical Marines is $45. I can get 12 Karist Troopers for MEDGe, for $28. That's 4 3-man squads, 2 full 6-man squads, or anything in between. Yes, their plastics are made in china, but GW's customer base is how large? GW has far more resources than Spiral Arm Studios, yet they sell great kits for much less and have written a superb ruleset. What is GW's excuse?
It's not twice as much. Their profit margin is about 25% (and it was only about 12% 4 years ago). That's of course incredibly healthy, but not at the point where they could halve the costs of their sets.
I don't know what it's like in the US but here in the UK I can get 20% off online, so it's less $45 and more $36. Looking at the sprues for them them and the maelstromes edge models, and then taking into the fact that they are made in the UK, I'd rather pay the extra $8
I do think some things are too much (i.e. new character models) but most of the squads seem a fair price to me. Biggest annoyance by far though is the cost of rules that are constantly errated and updated, if you collected a specific space marine chapter, in the last 2.5 years you would have had to buy (in order to stay up todate) Imperium Index 1, the first 8th ed Codex Space Marines, the second 8th Codex Space Marines, and the book for your individual chapter. That's an awful lot on rules.
It isn't just that prices are high, it's that they're roughly twice what they could be while remaining profitable, especially if GW would stop pretending their minis are on the same level as a Bugatti.
A GW box of 10 Tactical Marines is $45. I can get 12 Karist Troopers for MEDGe, for $28. That's 4 3-man squads, 2 full 6-man squads, or anything in between. Yes, their plastics are made in china, but GW's customer base is how large? GW has far more resources than Spiral Arm Studios, yet they sell great kits for much less and have written a superb ruleset. What is GW's excuse?
It's not twice as much. Their profit margin is about 25% (and it was only about 12% 4 years ago). That's of course incredibly healthy, but not at the point where they could halve the costs of their sets.
I don't know what it's like in the US but here in the UK I can get 20% off online, so it's less $45 and more $36. Looking at the sprues for them them and the maelstromes edge models, and then taking into the fact that they are made in the UK, I'd rather pay the extra $8
I do think some things are too much (i.e. new character models) but most of the squads seem a fair price to me. Biggest annoyance by far though is the cost of rules that are constantly errated and updated, if you collected a specific space marine chapter, in the last 2.5 years you would have had to buy (in order to stay up todate) Imperium Index 1, the first 8th ed Codex Space Marines, the second 8th Codex Space Marines, and the book for your individual chapter. That's an awful lot on rules.
You missed the Vigilus book and Faith and Fury to get the other rules you might need for your chapter especially if you play IF with centurions and librarians/techmarines/apo/chaplains.
What I find weird about people making the argument that "if [Company X] can sell figures for less than GW and write better rules and come round my house and give me a handy then why don't GW do it?" is why those people don't just go out and buy the other company's stuff instead, rather than incessantly complaining about GW on the internet.
Nazrak wrote: What I find weird about people making the argument that "if [Company X] can sell figures for less than GW and write better rules and come round my house and give me a handy then why don't GW do it?" is why those people don't just go out and buy the other company's stuff instead, rather than incessantly complaining about GW on the internet.
What I find weird about people is that they tend to assume that a person doesn't buy minis and rules from [Company X] but only complains about [Company Z] on the internet.
I mean, there's not anything being said in this thread that doesn't get said literally every time the GW pricing question comes up, but one thing that came up in that Big Painting Argument thread that hadn't occurred to me (sorry, can't remember who said it) is that maybe the perception of value ties to how much hobby time you get out of the figures, and time spent on painting can certainly add to that time.
To me, thirty-odd quid (disregarding the sunk cost of paints, brushes etc) on a new box of models will easily keep me amused for like a month of hobby time building and painting them. I could easily spend that on an afternoon out in the pub watching the footy (something I do a lot less now the bulk of my pals have kids), so yeah, it's an extravagance, but it's a pretty small extravagance in the grand scheme of things.
I think the "cost as barrier to entry for new/younger hobbyists" point is a decent one, but I think GW are actually doing pretty well with that these days, with the various levels of starter set, the partworks, and the Start Collecting boxes etc
Nazrak wrote: What I find weird about people making the argument that "if [Company X] can sell figures for less than GW and write better rules and come round my house and give me a handy then why don't GW do it?" is why those people don't just go out and buy the other company's stuff instead, rather than incessantly complaining about GW on the internet.
What I find weird about people is that they tend to assume that a person doesn't buy minis and rules from [Company X] but only complains about [Company Z] on the internet.
i mean, my exact point is "why do the latter bit at all?"
Nazrak wrote: What I find weird about people making the argument that "if [Company X] can sell figures for less than GW and write better rules and come round my house and give me a handy then why don't GW do it?" is why those people don't just go out and buy the other company's stuff instead, rather than incessantly complaining about GW on the internet.
I'm not one of those people, but I'm sure there are companies whose figures are cheaper and rules are better - but I like the warhammer universe, I'm not interested in playing War Machine for instance because I have no attachment to it. The only non-GW miniatures game I'm interested in is the star wars one and I've no idea how good the rules are or what cost the minis are, I just want to play it because it's star wars. I don't think there is anything inherently bad about comparing GW with other companies - the issue is whether those criticisms have genuine merit, and often people are so eager to hit out at GW that they make arguments that don't or ignore fundamental differences (quality of minis etc)
Nazrak wrote: I mean, there's not anything being said in this thread that doesn't get said literally every time the GW pricing question comes up, but one thing that came up in that Big Painting Argument thread that hadn't occurred to me (sorry, can't remember who said it) is that maybe the perception of value ties to how much hobby time you get out of the figures, and time spent on painting can certainly add to that time.
To me, thirty-odd quid (disregarding the sunk cost of paints, brushes etc) on a new box of models will easily keep me amused for like a month of hobby time building and painting them. I could easily spend that on an afternoon out in the pub watching the footy (something I do a lot less now the bulk of my pals have kids), so yeah, it's an extravagance, but it's a pretty small extravagance in the grand scheme of things.
I think the "cost as barrier to entry for new/younger hobbyists" point is a decent one, but I think GW are actually doing pretty well with that these days, with the various levels of starter set, the partworks, and the Start Collecting boxes etc
Nazrak wrote: What I find weird about people making the argument that "if [Company X] can sell figures for less than GW and write better rules and come round my house and give me a handy then why don't GW do it?" is why those people don't just go out and buy the other company's stuff instead, rather than incessantly complaining about GW on the internet.
What I find weird about people is that they tend to assume that a person doesn't buy minis and rules from [Company X] but only complains about [Company Z] on the internet.
i mean, my exact point is "why do the latter bit at all?"
Because I still care about 40k. I want to play, I want to buy the minis, but there many things I dislike at present. I still want to talk about the game and minis.
Many people in my hobby store like warhammer universe and consider their miniatures to be really sweet. That is more of an anecdotal evidence, but this is how I feel when I talk about warhammer there. Quite few people use this as an excuse of why they are not playing W40k. They love a lot of stuff about it, but dislike base game. I played one demo for w40k and AoS and I was naturally more drawn to Warmachine. While Warmachine is not cheaper than GW production and has lower quality minis and their models are more hit and miss, factions lacking inspiration and lore, I simply love their gameplay far more. It feels a lot more skewed towards personal skill than dice rolls. It feels more balanced and fair. I think that W40k needs AoS 2.0 treatment and game needs to be remade. It gets pretty bloated up with endless special rules who does not do anything. Every unit has long list of minor buffs which doesn't really make or break them and it leaves me thinking, what is the point?
If we are comparing costs, I got starter pack for one faction from Warmachine. It costs around 32 euros. In order to make this starter pack into minimum playable force of 25 points with an theme army (75 points is equal to 2000 points warhammer game), I'm looking now at the online shop 132,56 + 32 € = 162,56 euros price tag. It is all also with 20% discount which you find with online retailers. It of course depends on what army you are building, some are cheaper, others more expensive. Also, high points game have more costly, bigger and powerful units who are equivalent to Lords of Wars. A single unit like this costs around 100 euros and is worth 33 ish points, so it is very comparable to a price which GW asks for their own Lord of War units. I'm also shocked that there isn't second hand market, one guy have silly ebay business and is hoarding all the offerings and while they are cheaper, it is not much. Half broken, unpainted collection of random models cost from 90 to 200 euros (with shipping).
I play X,Y,Z games and I have strong tendency to play almost every game. My logic is that getting in is quite cheap with starter packs and you won't know what you like or not without actually playing game. Tabletop had completely replaced my gaming as a hobby and I do not see it as an expensive hobby. All those starter packs will keep me busy for many months until I will be done with them. Just assembling a single box takes me an entire evening after work, never mind painting them! I love that you have something to show off when you are done. You have all those cool looking miniatures and know more about various games even if you did not liked playing them.
Because I still care about 40k. I want to play, I want to buy the minis, but there many things I dislike at present. I still want to talk about the game and minis.
I'd look heavily into eBay/Kijiji/swap meets for warhammer on the cheap(er). Unless you want to chase the new hawtness there are always bargains to be found. An ultrasound cleaner could pay for itself in no time. It's not much extra work, often less given the assembly is generally already done.
I guess the problem I have with people who like the GW designs, background etc, then draw comparisons with others offering cheaper models, is that they seem to be kinda ignoring the fact that *you're also paying for those designs/background etc* – the people creating those things aren't working for free, y'know.
Ultimately, sure, it'd be nice if *everything* was cheaper, but then I think we're getting into a situation where people's underlying beef is with capitalism, and I'm pretty sure this forum is not the place for that discussion.
In the end, you have to decide if what you get out of buying into the hobby is worth it *to you*, and spend your money, or not, accordingly. All the arguing/complaining on forums in the world isn't gonna make GW drop their prices when they're going absolutely gangbusters as a business with the current pricing structure.
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
It's easily affordable by anyone making a living wage. You can talk about nebulous 'value' all you want, but people pay hundreds of dollars to go to sports venues for a couple hours of entertainment. Same with a music concert. A single night at the bar can go through a hundred bucks pretty easily. People throw their money away on tobacco all the time. I do none of these things because they don't represent 'value' to me either. I do get a lot of enjoyment from building and painting miniatures that I like. Games Workshop is the elephant in the room - it's the easiest to get in a game of 40k or AoS than anything else, and that's how they get away with the increased price compared to the rest of the market. I could buy lots of miniatures from cheaper alternatives like Mantic (and, in fact, I have), but my chances of actually playing those games is pretty low, so their 'value' is far lower, especially when I have to deal with inferior materials (like Mantic's restic, bleurgh).
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of instances where GW has priced me out of stuff - especially single plastic HQ models - with their wonky pricing, but with Start Collecting and Battleforce Boxes I've managed to build armies at reasonable prices so that the odd big kit doesn't really bother me, and I'm not making big bucks, I'm well below average household income in my region.
I have been priced out, but even if that was not the case, GW prices would still be rip-offs. Regardless of budget. I can get more minis for far less from other, smaller companies. Sporting events and concerts are innately more expensive to put on (cost of production absolutely matters when discussing the value of goods and services) and are experiences, which are inherently more valuable. GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
Ah yes. Another one who thinks only thing that costs GW is the actual plastic spent
Well, depends on what he means by getting plastic cheaper elsewhere. I made many comparisons recently and GW aren't really expensive when you consider everything. I'm paying around 60 euros per full squad of infantry (12 models) in Warmachine.You pay as much in Infinity. People need to start being more precise, though I do think it is rather issue with disposable income rather than company itself.
Ernestas wrote: Well, depends on what he means by getting plastic cheaper elsewhere. I made many comparisons recently and GW aren't really expensive when you consider everything. I'm paying around 60 euros per full squad of infantry (12 models) in Warmachine.You pay as much in Infinity. People need to start being more precise, though I do think it is rather issue with disposable income rather than company itself.
I do often note that people say you can get models cheaper; then when you compare it its more like other games just use less models on the table, which results in cheaper armies. Of course regional prices do affect this, sometimes the way exchange rates work out between the companies one can end up a lot cheaper than another in a specific country.
I also think a good few people forget that GW models often come with optional parts; variable weapons and sometimes a modular design. Many other companies you get 1 pose and 1 weapon per model. Warmachine is very like that and it was only with some warjacks (and some beasts) that you do get a multipart model with multiple options. But by and large (esp for infantry) its one model one weapon.
When people talk of their bits box its often chock full of GW stuff and very few other lines of models (and what is in there from other lines is often unbuilt rather than properly spare parts)
Ernestas wrote: Well, depends on what he means by getting plastic cheaper elsewhere. I made many comparisons recently and GW aren't really expensive when you consider everything. I'm paying around 60 euros per full squad of infantry (12 models) in Warmachine.You pay as much in Infinity. People need to start being more precise, though I do think it is rather issue with disposable income rather than company itself.
I do often note that people say you can get models cheaper; then when you compare it its more like other games just use less models on the table, which results in cheaper armies. Of course regional prices do affect this, sometimes the way exchange rates work out between the companies one can end up a lot cheaper than another in a specific country.
I also think a good few people forget that GW models often come with optional parts; variable weapons and sometimes a modular design. Many other companies you get 1 pose and 1 weapon per model. Warmachine is very like that and it was only with some warjacks (and some beasts) that you do get a multipart model with multiple options. But by and large (esp for infantry) its one model one weapon.
When people talk of their bits box its often chock full of GW stuff and very few other lines of models (and what is in there from other lines is often unbuilt rather than properly spare parts)
Absolutely this. And I think this largely ties in with the whole thing about perceived value. If all you want from your models is something with the exact optimal loadout for competitive gaming, that you're not even going to paint and just chuck straight on the table, then yeah, what GW are offering is surplus to your requirements, so you're paying extra for a bunch of stuff you don't want. Whereas if you're looking at it as a modelling project, a painting project, *and* and something you can play games with, then extraneous aspects for which you're paying are reduced, I guess.
Ernestas wrote: Well, depends on what he means by getting plastic cheaper elsewhere. I made many comparisons recently and GW aren't really expensive when you consider everything. I'm paying around 60 euros per full squad of infantry (12 models) in Warmachine.You pay as much in Infinity. People need to start being more precise, though I do think it is rather issue with disposable income rather than company itself.
I do often note that people say you can get models cheaper; then when you compare it its more like other games just use less models on the table, which results in cheaper armies. Of course regional prices do affect this, sometimes the way exchange rates work out between the companies one can end up a lot cheaper than another in a specific country.
I also think a good few people forget that GW models often come with optional parts; variable weapons and sometimes a modular design. Many other companies you get 1 pose and 1 weapon per model. Warmachine is very like that and it was only with some warjacks (and some beasts) that you do get a multipart model with multiple options. But by and large (esp for infantry) its one model one weapon.
When people talk of their bits box its often chock full of GW stuff and very few other lines of models (and what is in there from other lines is often unbuilt rather than properly spare parts)
Les Grognards from Wargames Atlantic are a box of 24 infantry for $35. That kit includes a whole ton of weapon options and eight different head varieties for a total of 192 (!!!) heads in the box.
Perry Miniatures sells American Civil War figures at 36 models for 20 pounds. They don't have much in the way of options, but that's incredibly cheap.
There are companies like Anvil, Mad Robot, and Victoria Miniatures that sell models comparable to GW in pricing, but for the latter two I would argue have significantly better sculpts than the GW ranges they are equivalent to.
So basically when people say you can get models cheaper than GW they're right; that doesn't mean everything else is cheaper. I definitely wouldn't use Privateer Press as an example of a cheaper alternative to GW.
Yes, but it is like apple stuff. All their stuff costs 3xtimes as much as Huaweis or Samsungs. You are praying for the brand.
w40k stuff is probably the same way. They could sell it for less, but if majority of buyers are willing to buy 10 models at 60$, why shouldn't they keep such a price.
And for places where 60$ per squad is not as acceptable, there are recasters.
More important question, do they support any worthwhile game? You can't exactly buy just miniatures if you want to play tabletop. You need to buy into models of some company or otherwise you will spend a lot more in trying to convert those. So, I think it is only fair to compare those models to a tabletop game which is not dead. Also, while those are the cheapest miniatures I had ever seen, I do not think that quality of them compares to Primaris marines for example. I have one next to me and even unpainted it looks awesome. Those often look like small toys by comparison and even when they are painted, they are not much to look at. Different companies which you had pointed to have a lot more pricey stuff like 30 euros for 10 dudes which are equivalent to GW prices.
Those are great models at least in preview, but they hardly are cheaper than buying from GW.
Edit: I had checked that those are made out of resin. Resin is more expensive material and is valued more highly so they are cheaper for what they are than GW products, though an average consumer would not be able to tell a difference. Most small companies are making their products out of resin, but it is only because they are not really selling them at worthwhile volumes and I bet that most people in those companies have second jobs. I don't think that they offer nearly as much new inventory as others. It seems that they are just stuck at producing however small or big their inventory is and rarely expanding their range. Which is another advantage/disadvantage of third party suppliers.
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
It's easily affordable by anyone making a living wage. You can talk about nebulous 'value' all you want, but people pay hundreds of dollars to go to sports venues for a couple hours of entertainment. Same with a music concert. A single night at the bar can go through a hundred bucks pretty easily. People throw their money away on tobacco all the time. I do none of these things because they don't represent 'value' to me either. I do get a lot of enjoyment from building and painting miniatures that I like. Games Workshop is the elephant in the room - it's the easiest to get in a game of 40k or AoS than anything else, and that's how they get away with the increased price compared to the rest of the market. I could buy lots of miniatures from cheaper alternatives like Mantic (and, in fact, I have), but my chances of actually playing those games is pretty low, so their 'value' is far lower, especially when I have to deal with inferior materials (like Mantic's restic, bleurgh).
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of instances where GW has priced me out of stuff - especially single plastic HQ models - with their wonky pricing, but with Start Collecting and Battleforce Boxes I've managed to build armies at reasonable prices so that the odd big kit doesn't really bother me, and I'm not making big bucks, I'm well below average household income in my region.
I have been priced out, but even if that was not the case, GW prices would still be rip-offs. Regardless of budget. I can get more minis for far less from other, smaller companies. Sporting events and concerts are innately more expensive to put on (cost of production absolutely matters when discussing the value of goods and services) and are experiences, which are inherently more valuable. GW sells a few pennies' worth of plastic for $50+. You are overpaying. You may not mind that, but you are overpaying.
Ah yes. Another one who thinks only thing that costs GW is the actual plastic spent
If you had bothered to read some of my other posts, you would know this is not the case.
Ernestas wrote: Well, depends on what he means by getting plastic cheaper elsewhere. I made many comparisons recently and GW aren't really expensive when you consider everything. I'm paying around 60 euros per full squad of infantry (12 models) in Warmachine.You pay as much in Infinity. People need to start being more precise, though I do think it is rather issue with disposable income rather than company itself.
I do often note that people say you can get models cheaper; then when you compare it its more like other games just use less models on the table, which results in cheaper armies. Of course regional prices do affect this, sometimes the way exchange rates work out between the companies one can end up a lot cheaper than another in a specific country.
I also think a good few people forget that GW models often come with optional parts; variable weapons and sometimes a modular design. Many other companies you get 1 pose and 1 weapon per model. Warmachine is very like that and it was only with some warjacks (and some beasts) that you do get a multipart model with multiple options. But by and large (esp for infantry) its one model one weapon.
When people talk of their bits box its often chock full of GW stuff and very few other lines of models (and what is in there from other lines is often unbuilt rather than properly spare parts)
Skirmish games are naturally cheaper, yes. What about KOW? $90 gets you around 50 minis, for 4+ units. One may or may not like the sculpts (I really only care for the Empire of Dust stuff) but that's still better value per-dollar for gaming purposes than a Start Collecting box of 1 HQ 1 squad and 1 thing.
The extra bits in GW kits are nice to have. However- leftover bits are only useful if you have other minis for them. Bodies are always in short supply, as are weapons, IE tac squads with ML only, Devs with 1 Lascannon, or whatever. The dual kits are even worse. You pay extra for the "choice" between 2 data sheets, and cutting costs for GW.
If the rules were better, to the point a single kit is impactful in the game, maybe I would think differently.
A few weeks ago I bought 220+ EoD models to kings of war for about 180euro or 200dollar. Besides the 200 infantry models I got 4 characters, 4 warmachines, 3 large infantry/monsters and 3 swarms.
Their mega army or mega force deals are amazing value. I got 3 Invictor Warsuits, 3 eliminators and 2 characters to my BA army for the same cost as a complete KoW army. Both the KoW and 40k stuff bought at online stores with the best discounts I could find in europe. Quite a lot of extra bits as well for me since 164 of my models are base plastic and come with extra metal upper bodies,shields and heads so I could if I wanted build a whole undead army rising from the ground since I got like 200 extra upper bodies/heads/weapons.
about 60euro for all the rules for my armies and my friends armies in 2 books compared to the 25 euro a month we would have to pay for each new 40k book to keep up to date with the rules.
The only thing I really liked from GW lately are the big boxes like Shadowspear and the contrast paints. Shadowspear and Dark Imperium are at the price point things should be at and the contrast paints help me paint my KoW/9th age armies faster. I can paint a good looking wood elf archer or a mummy in less than 20min now without much effort and only 4-5 contrast paints. Rest of the paint range is a bit expensive. It costs about 20% more than Vallejo and you get 30% less paint and in bottles that dries up compared to vallejo or armypainter. Only reason I even buy paint there is that I go pass the local GW store about 6 times a week and the stores that sells other paints are further away so cant be bothered to go further if I just need 1 new paint bottle.
Well, I checked Kings of War on Wayland and you get similarly priced deals for mega collection and GW starter bundles like Dark Imperium. When I had checked for individual deals, models are around 5-15 euro range. Not exactly outright better deal, but this game seems cheaper. And common, overexegarration doesn't help anyone here. Codexes might be annoying to buy, but it takes reeaaallly long time before you need to buy another one. People are making fuss over nothing.
To me, the quality is what makes it cost more.
Not saying it’s a reasonable price as quite a few GW kits have a questionable price tag.
It’s alright dropping links to packs of 20+ infantry for half the price of GW, but even at a distance you can see a huge lack of detail and depth to the models.
KoW started out as average models at a good price.
Over time the quality has gone up, but the price has also followed on the newer stuff.
While it’s just my opinion, I don’t really see any companies on par for model quality.
Yes, the prices are higher, but a lot of the draw to GW is the models.
That’s why so many people refuse to hop over to other games, despite them being much cheaper.
Ernestas wrote: Well, I checked Kings of War on Wayland and you get similarly priced deals for mega collection and GW starter bundles like Dark Imperium. When I had checked for individual deals, models are around 5-15 euro range. Not exactly outright better deal, but this game seems cheaper. And common, overexegarration doesn't help anyone here. Codexes might be annoying to buy, but it takes reeaaallly long time before you need to buy another one. People are making fuss over nothing.
They sell many of the core units for about 1£ or less than 1,5€ a model. You get 20 skeletons for the same price as 10 cadians or you get 40 for the same price as 15 if you buy the large skeleton box. The skeletons arent worse sculpts than the cadians and you get extra weapons and other bits on the sprues as well. For KoW each army has multiples of deals at the same level or above the Dark Imperium box. Which is only good for 2 factions the other factions only have their start collecting boxes that are much inferior to the KoW deals. You save up to 50% on some of the KoW deals(the 100-120 euro boxes) and not just a free character thrown in that costs 15 euro, which is a lot for a small single model, to make the box look like a good deal. KoW have some more expensive monsters and such that look quite close to GW in price but their core units you need lots of are cheap and unlike GW they sell larger boxes for cheaper for those units and dont repack the models with half the amount and keep/increase the price.
In a group of friends you would probably need a book a month to cover everyones needs. CA and books like vigilus and PA exists outside of the codex cycle too. It isnt much spread out on multiple people but its a huge amount of books that feel quite unneccesary compared to gathering the rules in just one or two books for all 20 factions. Why should we pay the price for rules every month or every second month that equals the cost of what other games cost every few years for their rules.
You know in Lovecraftian/cthulu settings where there is a puzzle that slowly drives a person insane when they try to solve it? GW pricing is like that.
As others have pointed out, GW prices account for many different factors, from raw materials, production, development, and transportation. In the year ending June 2, 2019, GW had sales of £256.5 million with pre-tax profit of £81.2 million. In the most simplistic terms, they spent £175.1 achieve their sales.
So if GW made 31% profit off it's sales, just how much additional sales do they have to any specific price reduction make more profit? If they reduce prices 20%, that reduces profits down to 11% of sales, which means they need to nearly triple sales just to make the same profit on pounds. Not a good business decision since I double they will get that much more sales off that little of a price reduction.
So I guess GW prices are that insane. Or maybe we want a cheaper product that the quality and quantity of games and models we get from GW now?
alextroy wrote: As others have pointed out, GW prices account for many different factors, from raw materials, production, development, and transportation. In the year ending June 2, 2019, GW had sales of £256.5 million with pre-tax profit of £81.2 million. In the most simplistic terms, they spent £175.1 achieve their sales.
So if GW made 31% profit off it's sales, just how much additional sales do they have to any specific price reduction make more profit? If they reduce prices 20%, that reduces profits down to 11% of sales, which means they need to nearly triple sales just to make the same profit on pounds. Not a good business decision since I double they will get that much more sales off that little of a price reduction.
So I guess GW prices are that insane. Or maybe we want a cheaper product that the quality and quantity of games and models we get from GW now?
Even more than that. Reducing prices won't increase sales that much, but they will sell more models, which means more material, inventory, production, and other costs.
Also, pre-tax profits can be deceiving as those taxes can be as high as 40% though usually it is over 20%. So, profits would be more close to £60 million if we take 25% income tax and ignore any other expenses. This makes 23% profit. GW is not screwing its customers with monopoly, but it does have a healthy profit margin from what it seems. How efficient or how wasteful company is another matter, but I would rather have GW which prospers and can ever improve quality and quantity of their production rather GW which is struggling. I apply same attitude to my local hobby shop. I know how hard is to do business and I take prefer to take small loss and order from them anyways.
Ernestas wrote: Well, I checked Kings of War on Wayland and you get similarly priced deals for mega collection and GW starter bundles like Dark Imperium. When I had checked for individual deals, models are around 5-15 euro range. Not exactly outright better deal, but this game seems cheaper. And common, overexegarration doesn't help anyone here. Codexes might be annoying to buy, but it takes reeaaallly long time before you need to buy another one. People are making fuss over nothing.
They sell many of the core units for about 1£ or less than 1,5€ a model. You get 20 skeletons for the same price as 10 cadians or you get 40 for the same price as 15 if you buy the large skeleton box. The skeletons arent worse sculpts than the cadians and you get extra weapons and other bits on the sprues as well. For KoW each army has multiples of deals at the same level or above the Dark Imperium box. Which is only good for 2 factions the other factions only have their start collecting boxes that are much inferior to the KoW deals. You save up to 50% on some of the KoW deals(the 100-120 euro boxes) and not just a free character thrown in that costs 15 euro, which is a lot for a small single model, to make the box look like a good deal. KoW have some more expensive monsters and such that look quite close to GW in price but their core units you need lots of are cheap and unlike GW they sell larger boxes for cheaper for those units and dont repack the models with half the amount and keep/increase the price.
In a group of friends you would probably need a book a month to cover everyones needs. CA and books like vigilus and PA exists outside of the codex cycle too. It isnt much spread out on multiple people but its a huge amount of books that feel quite unneccesary compared to gathering the rules in just one or two books for all 20 factions. Why should we pay the price for rules every month or every second month that equals the cost of what other games cost every few years for their rules.
It seems that they are twice as cheap than GW production. It is good to know the lower limit at how cheap those miniatures can be. Though, even this company has some egregious examples of expensive products.
They want 40 euros for this one model! That is same that GW generally asks for their own vehicles. It seems that more complex miniatures does possess far higher price without possessing same level of quality which GW has.
I'm not sure if it is true in regards to books. Codexes and rulebooks seem to come pretty seldomly and you need to wait a while until army gets updated. GW prefers to update point changes and Codexes are built with that in mind (they have no points over unit data page) and any changes you can alter with a simple pencil. Neither you need technically a rulebook or codex, you can just acquire pdf, but you are paying for convenience which you want. Though honestly, I'm not sure how you can have balance updates and factions without this system. In Warmachine we have to bother printing unit cards ourselves or buying them. It is a lot of bother, annoying and looks bad. It also means that meta is very stagnant due to low amount of support by comparison and your cards gets invalidated every revision. To make matters worse, company doesn't bother printing cards anymore so, feth you. In order for entire army ruleset to be fitted on a single card, game needs to be remade. Also, even other systems are not much better, because they omit information. What Pathfinder or Tough means? You have to know rules in advance in order to be able to read cards properly. Paper is only replaced by wikis which I bet you could just as easily with Warhammer.
alextroy wrote: As others have pointed out, GW prices account for many different factors, from raw materials, production, development, and transportation. In the year ending June 2, 2019, GW had sales of £256.5 million with pre-tax profit of £81.2 million. In the most simplistic terms, they spent £175.1 achieve their sales.
So if GW made 31% profit off it's sales, just how much additional sales do they have to any specific price reduction make more profit? If they reduce prices 20%, that reduces profits down to 11% of sales, which means they need to nearly triple sales just to make the same profit on pounds. Not a good business decision since I double they will get that much more sales off that little of a price reduction.
So I guess GW prices are that insane. Or maybe we want a cheaper product that the quality and quantity of games and models we get from GW now?
Lets not forget that GW have eventually expanded their production facilities to maturity/saturation at their current site and the factory runs almost continuously. The only ways they could increase production to facilitate extra sales is to buy and develop a new plot and / or reduce the variety in the range of miniatures (I heard it takes a non-insignificant amount of time to swap moulds around etc for plastic which cuts into production time).
Nazrak wrote: I guess the problem I have with people who like the GW designs, background etc, then draw comparisons with others offering cheaper models, is that they seem to be kinda ignoring the fact that *you're also paying for those designs/background etc* – the people creating those things aren't working for free, y'know.
Ultimately, sure, it'd be nice if *everything* was cheaper, but then I think we're getting into a situation where people's underlying beef is with capitalism, and I'm pretty sure this forum is not the place for that discussion.
In the end, you have to decide if what you get out of buying into the hobby is worth it *to you*, and spend your money, or not, accordingly. All the arguing/complaining on forums in the world isn't gonna make GW drop their prices when they're going absolutely gangbusters as a business with the current pricing structure.
I feel it's also worth noting that it seems every month or two on the rumors and news thread is news about one mini manafacturer or another going out of busniess. GW is stable and steady by and large they're unlikely to go anywhere soon. this is a good place for a busniess to be in. Also regarding prices, GW is the "big fish" in the industry, so their prices are going to be known quantities, all the compeition is going to try to charge less specificly to wrest away what they can of the pie. It's the same reason why disney + is cheaper then netflix.
To be honest, a lot of manufactures simply suck. Their miniatures aren't pretty and they have small variety with next to none development of new miniatures. Here is a hint why they are failing:
On the other hand, I'm not seeing RagingHeroes doing poorly. They seem to have constant sales and shortage of products. I wonder what is the difference between the two.
Miniature market tends to be high quality business. So many things might go wrong and all of them need to be right. How miniature are made, defects are not tolerated. How designer creates a miniature, it must be attractive to their audience. It must have its own niche. Quality must be maintained. Level of detail must be maintained from a digital model to physical miniature. In a lot of cases, something, somewhere fails. In addition, miniature market is not same as wargamming market where low quality materials and lack of details is acceptable. A lot of more traditional wargamming miniatures get free pass due to historical reasons and no competition, but when it comes to miniatures, bar is set a lot higher.
Of which the lion's share is operating costs for their useless wannabe IKEA storefront 80% of players don't get to ever set foot in.
People living out of range of GW stores are subsidizing them and their variety of evil managers sniffing your miniatures to catch you committing the crime of using a cloak from a 3rd party so everyone can be miserable together at the world's shittiest game tables.
Of which the lion's share is operating costs for their useless wannabe IKEA storefront 80% of players don't get to ever set foot in.
People living out of range of GW stores are subsidizing them and their variety of evil managers sniffing your miniatures to catch you committing the crime of using a cloak from a 3rd party so everyone can be miserable together at the world's shittiest game tables.
Can you show me on the Space Marine where the bad man touched you?
Trade Sales (Non-GW Stores) are 47% of sales and generate 52% of profit
Retail Sales (GW Stores) are 34% of sales and generate 11% of profit
Online Sales (GW Online) are 19% of sales and generate 35% of profit
What does this tell you? GW generates over half of their sales directly to customers at nearly the same profit level as their sales via the non-GW channel. The GW Stores profit is subsidized by GW Online Sales, which is actually the most profitable part of the business margin-wise.
And so dies the GW Stores inflate prices argument.
Trade Sales (Non-GW Stores) are 47% of sales and generate 52% of profit
Retail Sales (GW Stores) are 34% of sales and generate 11% of profit
Online Sales (GW Online) are 19% of sales and generate 35% of profit
What does this tell you? GW generates over half of their sales directly to customers at nearly the same profit level as their sales via the non-GW channel. The GW Stores profit is subsidized by GW Online Sales, which is actually the most profitable part of the business margin-wise.
And so dies the GW Stores inflate prices argument.
I'm not sure how you can come to any conclusions from that...
To me it looks like sales from non gw physical stores subsidize gw stores. Sure GW direct sales have the biggest profit margin but other retailer sales still have over 3x the profit than GWs own stores and many of those sales have a 10-20% discount on them and 1-2 extra middlemen taking share of the profits.
The actual cost to make a box for GW is almost nothing even when including factory, personel, packaging, storage and shipping for that box compared to what they sell them in their own non discounted stores be it physical or online. The stores cost them a lot of money and its hard to see if the marketing is worth it today. Before the internet made it easier to both market and sell stuff they were probably crucial to GWs success and they probably still help in spreading their name/hobby in some places but in most cities now though?
The largest seller of GW product and the store with the largest GW inventory in my city isnt the Warhammer store but the fantasy book store a few hundred meters away. And its not because of discounts since they only have about 0-3% off on GW stuff. They usually just round the numbers down to the closest 0 or 5 and since the SEK is worth 1/10 of the euro its usually only 0,1€-0,5€ off in total. The GW store have downsized twice in the last 15 years both in store area, location, personel and opening times while the book/nerd store have more than doubled in size twice in the same timeframe and still looking to continue expanding. It used to be much smaller than the GW store but are now at least 6x the size if not counting the cafe and gaming/reading area. Wouldnt be surprised if its the case in many more locations as well.
Ernestas wrote: Well, depends on what he means by getting plastic cheaper elsewhere. I made many comparisons recently and GW aren't really expensive when you consider everything. I'm paying around 60 euros per full squad of infantry (12 models) in Warmachine.You pay as much in Infinity. People need to start being more precise, though I do think it is rather issue with disposable income rather than company itself.
I do often note that people say you can get models cheaper; then when you compare it its more like other games just use less models on the table, which results in cheaper armies. Of course regional prices do affect this, sometimes the way exchange rates work out between the companies one can end up a lot cheaper than another in a specific country.
I also think a good few people forget that GW models often come with optional parts; variable weapons and sometimes a modular design. Many other companies you get 1 pose and 1 weapon per model. Warmachine is very like that and it was only with some warjacks (and some beasts) that you do get a multipart model with multiple options. But by and large (esp for infantry) its one model one weapon.
When people talk of their bits box its often chock full of GW stuff and very few other lines of models (and what is in there from other lines is often unbuilt rather than properly spare parts)
There is a lot of varibles, It even can depend on what army you have.
But for me, its the rules and the game bringing down and lowering the value.
But also that you can get a 40k army and have it made redundant since the studio creating the game is rather daft at times.
It does not help that in aus, new kits for 40k are going up super fast in price D:
Bits i do not even keep anymore, so i find effectively worthless now. The only reason they are useful at the time is not even the devs know which ones will be useful
Of which the lion's share is operating costs for their useless wannabe IKEA storefront 80% of players don't get to ever set foot in.
People living out of range of GW stores are subsidizing them and their variety of evil managers sniffing your miniatures to catch you committing the crime of using a cloak from a 3rd party so everyone can be miserable together at the world's shittiest game tables.
You know what? I don't give a crap what problems those who choose to play in a GW store experience. It doesn't matter to me at all how GW chooses to split up the $ they make from my most recent purchase. What I care about is A) Did they make a model I want? B) Am I willing to pay the price they're asking?
Trade Sales (Non-GW Stores) are 47% of sales and generate 52% of profit
Retail Sales (GW Stores) are 34% of sales and generate 11% of profit
Online Sales (GW Online) are 19% of sales and generate 35% of profit
What does this tell you? GW generates over half of their sales directly to customers at nearly the same profit level as their sales via the non-GW channel. The GW Stores profit is subsidized by GW Online Sales, which is actually the most profitable part of the business margin-wise.
And so dies the GW Stores inflate prices argument.
I don't follow anyone's logic on this. Sure, it shows very low profitability of GW stores, but they are still quite profitable. Thus argument that we have to subsidize GW stores is inherently false, because they do not lose money, they make money for GW. Furthermore, I'm not sure that majority of people here understand what marketing truly is. How costly it is and how often crucial it is for long-term success of a product or a brand. GW stores to me seems as extremely good way to promote GW production to public. It is a self-sustaining and self-promoting form of marketing where instead of spending money, you are getting paid for marketing your product and that is truly insane!
Also, it confirms what I was saying. Nobody who knows what they are doing buys from GW directly. I know for sure that retailers are getting their production more than 15% off and GW eats up shipping costs. I can acquire any GW product at 15% discount, this means that real price of their products are a lot lower, probably 30% or more.
Of which the lion's share is operating costs for their useless wannabe IKEA storefront 80% of players don't get to ever set foot in.
People living out of range of GW stores are subsidizing them and their variety of evil managers sniffing your miniatures to catch you committing the crime of using a cloak from a 3rd party so everyone can be miserable together at the world's shittiest game tables.
Aren’t you just a bundle of joy.
I’m sure your local GW reciprocates the same feelings towards you.
Literally almost every thread you make or post on is negative.
If you dislike the game this badly, why get involved in discussions about it?
I’m sure I’ll come across as a GW apologist with this, but…
I can get a box of models from Company X for so much cheaper than GW, so surely GW can do the same. GW has a dominant position in the market, so they can afford to charge what their fans are willing to pay. So many smaller companies who don’t have a hardcore fanbase are competing against each other to for customers, so they have to price their product as attractively as they can manage in order to generate sales. GW don’t need to do that – they’ve got a huge number of people who just want to buy GW models. It’s a great position for the company to be in, even though it’s not so good for us hobbyists in terms of what we have to pay. A lot of small companies are probably run by dedicated hobbyists who are doing it for peanuts because they love doing it. I’d think their setup costs for each kit will be higher given they don’t have GW’s expertise and volume, but their running costs could well be less – it makes it hard to compare.
You can get a no-brand t-shirt much cheaper than a branded one or a good spec Android phone for much cheaper than an Apple one. Their offerings may be a bit more slick and polished, but the value for money is certainly less. Yet people still buy the more expensive option and those companies feel correct and justified in the prices they charge. And I’d argue that they’ve got even less of a captive audience than GW do. Fundamentally a shirt is a shirt and a phone is a phone, even if they’ve got minor differences. But GW have their settings, which are by far the most popular sci-fi/fantasy wargaming settings. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’ve been a big fan of GW’s settings for about 20 years now, I’m deep into the lore, love the aesthetic etc. No other fantasy/sci-fi setting I’ve seen from a wargames company has come close to tempting me, and licensed properties aren’t nearly as well set up for use in wargames (too few factions, too restricted in models/paintjob if you want to stick to the lore, game could die if the company loses the license, etc.) I think their settings are their biggest selling point, but GW also have some of the best, most detailed plastic models in the industry that are a joy to work with; a lot of their competitors’ models just don’t look as crisp or detailed, never mind what you think of the design aesthetic. They also have a huge range and a breakneck release pace. If you don’t like a model, there’s another release next week that you probably will. I’m not into branded shirts, and I’m baffled by people who fork out for Apple gadgets – but GW have got me captured pretty firmly. If there’s a cheaper kit from another company, but I don’t want to buy it and would rather buy the more expensive GW one, then why would GW try to match the cheaper company’s pricing? I’m not going to buy the cheaper kit just because it’s cheaper, if I don’t actually want the models.
Hobby X is so much cheaper than GW. Hobby Y is so much more expensive. Comparing one hobby to another is utterly pointless. Of course writing poetry is cheaper than buying models. Of course restoring classic cars is more expensive.
Yes, but it’s expensive for a few pence/cents worth of plastic, and I can’t afford it. That sucks. But there are plenty of people that can and do afford it – and the GW corporate machine isn’t about to lower prices to help the poorer hobbyist if it means reducing their profit. And the costs that the prices need to cover are so much more than just the cost of the plastic. They’re covering materials, time on the casting machine, packaging, warehouse space and GW corporate running cots, including the costs of developing new kits. They’re high enough that all of their sales channels – retail stores, trade and online can cover their associated costs and are in profit, thus keeping the company healthy.
GW could make a larger profit by lowering prices because sales would rise. Looking at the 2018-19 report, GW generated revenue of approx.. 255 million GBP, and profit (including royalties) of approx. 81 million GBP. If we were to ignore the fact that royalties are in there and assume this is all model/book sales, that puts an average 31% profit margin on their sales. Obviously the financials and calculations are a lot more complicated than this, but just on headline figures, drop prices by 15%, and you cut profits in half. Would a 15% drop in price double sales? I doubt it. It would also disproportionately impact the retail stores – we’ll get into those later.
On top of that, their production has been maxed out. I’m not sure where their new factory is in the process of being brought online, but until that’s open they can’t handle higher demand anyway. It’s worth mentioning that this is a FTSE250 company. I’m sure they’ve got marketing experts, sales analysts, and all sorts of number crunching to figure out where their best sales volume/profit margin point lies. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’re going to get it right, but I’m sure they put a lot more thought into these things than the average internet hobbyist thinks.
Hold on – if that’s the case then why can they offer Start Collecting and Battle Boxes for a discount? The cost of production of the sprues is fairly low, so it’s not like they’re making a loss on those boxes. The Start Collecting kits are what it says on the tin – they’re there to attract you into starting a new army, and then buying a whole bunch of the regular kits and making loads of money off you that way. They’re usually full of models that have long “paid-off their moulds”. They’ve made their big chunk of profit from pre-order and release day sales, and have settled into that comfortable ongoing sales period. They’re happy to offer them in a discount set if it can entice you to start a new army.
Battle boxes are very much a known quantity for them, at least the ones that sell out. We often ask why they don’t produce more of them when they know that they’ll sell. I suspect that they like the known quantity. If they make X copies of a box, know that they’ll sell, then they know in advance exactly how much profit they’ll make on that run. If you know you’ll make a certain amount of profit, it makes it easier to commit to that print run in the first place. Also don’t forget that a lot of people impulse buy battle boxes on pre order because they expect them to sell out, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy. I bet GW loves that – especially if said person doesn’t really need the contents of the box and just leaves some or all of them on the shelf. I’m guilty of that in a few cases myself. Cases where I wanted one faction, and while the other wasn’t models I really needed right now, I might do something with them eventually. So they’re on the shelf and haven’t been touched. I’m sure GW would be quite happy with that turn of events, because I bought those sprues, left them untouched, and kept buying other kits.
But if a kit has paid off it’s mould, surely the price can be lowered, right? A kit paying off it’s own mould is more of an accounting thing that anything else. It’s a measure of how well a kit has sold that tells the company if it was worth making that kit in the first place. It’s not actually the sales of that kit that are used to pay for it. GW makes money from sales. Some of it goes into operating costs, the rest is profit. I’d expect moulds are considered an operating cost rather than a capital investment out of profits, if only because producing new kits is a major part of GW’s sales model. Each new mould is paid for out of the sales from existing kits, then “has it paid off it’s own mould” is used as a measure of whether a kit was successful or not.
Not to mention that if they operated a model of making a kit cheaper once it had paid off its setup costs, how many people would wait to buy it, knowing it would get cheaper in future? Early sales would drop, meaning it would take longer to pay off its setup costs, and if enough people were waiting for the price drop it might not even get there.
But what about GW stores? Are online / FLGS sales subsidising those? No, other sales channels aren’t subsidising GW retail sales, because retail sales still made a profit. It was a much lower profit margin than trade and online sales certainly, but still a profit.
Trade Sales (Non-GW Stores) are 47% of sales and generate 52% of profit
Retail Sales (GW Stores) are 34% of sales and generate 11% of profit
Online Sales (GW Online) are 19% of sales and generate 35% of profit
What does this tell you? GW generates over half of their sales directly to customers at nearly the same profit level as their sales via the non-GW channel. The GW Stores profit is subsidized by GW Online Sales, which is actually the most profitable part of the business margin-wise.
And so dies the GW Stores inflate prices argument.
Retail stores are the lowest profit margin because they need to cover the costs of the high street location and store staffing. Trade profits are better, because GW doesn’t have to eat any store cost, even though the sales price is lower. I think trade sales are normally at something like 50-60% of RRP. Online is the best profit margin because the full 100% of the purchase price goes to GW, but their only costs associated with that sales channel are the warehouse/postage.
Yes, but doesn’t that mean prices need to be as high as they are in order for GW retail to make a profit? If we got rid of them they could lower prices. That’s correct, retail and online sales could handle a lower RRP far better than GW retail stores could. However would they do it? GW wants to make money after all, and this all falls back into the previous points. If people are willing to buy kits at their current prices, what incentive does GW have for lowering them? Even if there was increased demand at a lower price point, could they service the demand? If they cut retail stores – and 34% of their sales – would those sales switch to FLGS and online, or would they leave the GW ecosystem entirely?
How would the influx of new hobbyists be affected? After all, new hobbyists are the future of the company, and making a short term decision to improve margins that negatively impacts future growth is a sure way to crash a business. Yes, with the internet nowadays a physical presence is less necessary, but GW stores are still a visible part of the high street that makes Warhammer a household name, in the UK at least. I suspect the brand awareness would be much lower if they didn’t operate the retail chain, and that a lot of young hobbyists’ first steps are still taken with a painting lesson on a free space marine in a GW retail store. Even if that person eventually ends up buying exclusively online and FLGS.
Then the next argument would be – could they lower prices even further by cutting out FLGS and going to direct online sales only? After all, that’s their highest profit margin. But I couldn’t imagine their retail and trade sales all migrating to direct online sales if those channels were removed – could you?
It’s not like that in my country/region. Fair enough. I probably don’t know about your region – but GW clearly thinks it’s worth operating stores there. Again, they’ve almost certainly got a bunch of number crunchers saying it’s a good idea.
Yeah, but even with all that, this stuff is pretty expensive, right? It certainly feels that way, and I would love it if it were cheaper. But if the current pricing structure leads to a healthy, profitable company, I’ll accept it.
While I understand where you're coming from with this, I still think there's almost no logic with how GW prices their stuff, and the nearly unrelenting price creep is just going to alienate customers.
To address some of your points:
"Hobby X is so much cheaper than GW." This one really hit home for me today, at my local games shop. The new Exorcist is over ￥10,000. Slap that bad boy into your currency converter of choice, if you dare. I double dare ya to go to the Japanese GW site and actually get the legit price.
I went to a nearby hobby shop today, to pick up a few brushes. (shoutout to tamiya, their brushes are great and cheap!) Out of masochistic curiosity, I decided to see what gundam kits could match that kind of price range.
The MIGHTY 1/100 MG Sazabi Ver. Ka - knocked out of the park. A model kit I own, and can happily attest to - massive in size, sprue count, mind bending detail, mechanical complexity on a whole other planet compared to GW, with some SINGLE parts molded to be articulated once removed from the sprue. Less than a measly rhino variant.
I even saw a PERFECT GRADE Unicorn Gundam - a new model kit, one that transforms, and, a rarity for a gundam, does it WELL, a model that is recent and at the very cutting edge of model kit design. Also less than said rhino variant.
Now, there's a community out here. When I've gone to my nearest GW, in Osaka, there are clearly enthusiastic locals. All I had to do was mention the Horus Heresy, and suddenly everyone wanted to chat to me about it, dead keen to glean whatever they could from me about the mysterious, far-off forgeworld line. GW are actively buying out space in one of the country's leading - and arguably, one of the world's leading - hobby publications - Hobby Japan. Every single month.
But for the life of me, I really can't figure out how the everloving feth they plan to actually break into the market here, beyond a handful of ultrageeks and then foreign expats like me. I've seen the Gashapon machines they did with bandai out here. I've seen them in prominent places, in major cities. I've seen literally no-one except myself not pass them by. Even with those, they're charging close to double what the toy is worth, and are UTTERLY put to shame by ANY machine on either flank. The molds are cruddy and unattractive, there are slip lines all over the place, the designs are made without any consideration that they'll be crammed into a ball, the paint application is sub-par, there's no articulation. They feel like a con job. "It’s not like that in my country/region. Fair enough. I probably don’t know about your region" I honestly feel like this might be GWs approach, too. They really don't seem to care about doing proper market research here at all. GW prices back home are off-putting. Out here? Like, perplexing? And heartbreaking, too. I wish there was a community, I wish there was a scene, because, as much as I'm ranting - I love this hobby, so much, and I love sharing it with other people, and it feels like nottingham really couldn't give to gaks.
"Hold on – if that’s the case then why can they offer Start Collecting and Battle Boxes for a discount?" They barely even do that here. Most Start Collecting boxes clock in at over ￥10,000. Start a hobby for the price of the pinnacle, once-in-a-lifetime hardcore-collectors-only model? Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that bandai has much, MUCH more financial clout than GW, but really. Both companies are at the top of their respective games, both have domination over their particular niche, with a nice mix of devout followers and curious newbies. If anything, lower prices might help GW eat into some of the modeling fandom out here, because there's clearly hype about it - the ripples of excitement about contrast easily made it out here, even among very serious historical modelers. Despite their differences, the two are painfully alike. And yet GW just jacks up the price, damn the community, damn the fans, damn the potential, damn the poor dude working the GW store in Namba trying his hardest to keep that scene going.
GW doesn't owe anyone affordable kits. But I don't owe them anything right back, if they're going to keep turning the screws. There are enough recasters in east Asia. There are enough models in Japan that I can keep scratching the hobby itch without giving them another penny.
In theory you can say that about any company operating a system that isn't the cheapest possible and making the least or any profit at all.
In the end it doesn't really matter, GW could charge £100 a model or £.50p a model and it wouldn't matter. What matters is that the parent company is in a healthy financial position to sustain itself long term and that the customer is willing to pay. There will always be those who can't afford or who get priced out or who can buy 10 armies in an afternoon and it won't even have a meaningful effect on their money. Just as there will be those who can afford but not justify the cost. In the end if you can't or won't then you won't and GW won't worry about you as you're not a customer. Even if you were a former customer.
GW will only worry about "you" if you are representative of a meaningful portion of the market that GW wants to retain or recapture. If that's the case then GW can only "care" about you within their means and provided that your viewpoints are united and that this data makes it to GW. If there's a billion varying viewpoints and outrageous demands (I want Space Marines at £5 a box and 20 marines in a box all with multipose and 10 weapon options) then chances are it won't get heard.
Similarly GW isn't reading these forums, so viewpoints aired here are not likely to result in any change. Plus, as noted, GW is less likely to listen to people who are not their customers when GW already has enough customers to put their production to its limit.
I'm not arguing that GW have a right to gouge anybody - the analogy used there was equivalent to saying that they're forcing hobbyists to pay their prices. They're not. They're a company that has a right to charge whatever they want for their products. If that's a price that the market will bear, they will succeed as a company. If it's a price that their customers won't pay, they'll fail. It's as simple as that. Nobody's compelled to buy their products. They're a luxury hobby, and there are other alternatives. Anybody who thinks their prices are terrible is free to not buy their products. You're free to buy miniatures from other companies, or to pursue other hobbies entirely. They will only care about people with this "GW is screwing me" attitude if it becomes a large enough group to significantly negatively impact their sales.
Nor are those of us who are willing to pay their prices "mugs". We're well aware of how much we're paying and what we're getting in return. Everybody's different, in a different life and financial situation, and there are enough people out there willing to pay what GW charge to sustain them as a company, and even propel them to record profits. It's disingenuous to claim that anybody willing to pay GW prices is somehow willingly allowing themselves to be exploited.
In theory you can say that about any company operating a system that isn't the cheapest possible and making the least or any profit at all.
I don't know samsung or huawei phones are cheap, but apple stuff is mind blowing. Comperable or weaker machines costs two or three times as much, if they are apple. And your paying for a name and futures you can't really used outside of western europe or the US.
A skirmish GW game, costs a lot more then a skirmish game for similar fantasy or sci fi systems. And it is not like models produced by french, spanish or russian companies are butt ugly, and GW is some god like pinacle of model design. At best GW models for w40k can be considered good, as an aquired taste. Same way I know I like hagis soup, because I am polish, but for anyone east of my country it is considered hell food.
posermcbogus, it is sad to see that local pricing had screwed Japanese. Though, it is not as bad as it looks like, because it means that you are living in a lot better country than other countries. For example, in relationship you are paying an exact same price as I do, because my income is certainly less than twice of yours and thus every scrap of disposable income you have is a lot higher. Though, couldn't you just import this stuff from elsewhere? We get free shipping on these miniatures and they are tax free at least here.
I also want to add that those things around model sides are mould lines. Due to how these miniatures are manufactured there is little plastic left at the edges. You have to prepare GW miniatures before assembly. As for those giant robots, yes they look impressive, but I would like to remind you that they lack depth. They are a lot cheaper to make by comparison and while I appreciate their mechanical complexity, they are just plain surfaces over plain surfaces. It is like comparing detail of a airliner vs detail or space marine.
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I don't know samsung or huawei phones are cheap, but apple stuff is mind blowing. Comperable or weaker machines costs two or three times as much, if they are apple. And your paying for a name and futures you can't really used outside of western europe or the US.
A skirmish GW game, costs a lot more then a skirmish game for similar fantasy or sci fi systems. And it is not like models produc
But that is the case. GW simply produces way better stuff than most its competitors. People in this thread could only show cheaper stuff which looks like toys and has no real game behind them and even if they show one for a game, it is some cheap ass nonsense which nobody had heard of it. In addition, prices are comparable with other producers.
This thread originally was about some packages being badly priced by comparison to their other products. Like Flesh Hounds while being more simplistic unit, being a horde unit and benefiting in game from a lot of them and at the same time not being a niche unit, they have price point above that you would expect for such unit to have. It is not unique to one specific unit, most of the stuff GW sells are well priced in my eyes and I'm happy to buy it, but some are such obvious outliers that they stick out. Perhaps you have something to share and about this too?
But that is the case. GW simply produces way better stuff than most its competitors.
If think this is a politcians version of good or way better. One has to identify better as something very specific. GW produce models for the game that is more popular, one can not give them that. But better then competitors? GW is unable to make a normal sculpt of a human face.
I play all popular tabletop games in my local game community and competition simply does not compare. Getting faces right is most difficult part of miniature and I did not had this issue with GW figurines, but I did had this issue with Warmachine miniatures. I'm assembling Slaanesh and Khorne demons right now and their faces are right, so it is probably some of their other miniatures are worse in quality than ones which I have at my hand.
Nor are those of us who are willing to pay their prices "mugs". We're well aware of how much we're paying and what we're getting in return. Everybody's different, in a different life and financial situation, and there are enough people out there willing to pay what GW charge to sustain them as a company, and even propel them to record profits. It's disingenuous to claim that anybody willing to pay GW prices is somehow willingly allowing themselves to be exploited.
You are paying massively inflated prices for model kits that depending on there age, range from dire to caught up to modern standards more or less and that's not taking the aesthetics into account.
That are used in a game with rules that can be described at best as an afterthought or at worst as dire/a handy way to flog 2-4 overpriced hardbacks a month.
You potentially paint and build them with rebaged tools and brushes witha 70% mark up over the originals and using paints that are twice the price for half the product to almost all the competitors brands.
Finally personal value is certainly subjective however actual value is not and being willingly exploited is still being exploited, while businesses do aim to make a profit most are not quite as dismissive of there customers intentionally as GW a company who specifically set out to ape Apple.
Finally personal value is certainly subjective however actual value is not and being willingly exploited is still being exploited
Exploited? I can see calling it overcharged, though how one determines overcharged in a completely non-essential product is difficult at best. GW is definitely overcharging on brushes/glue and some of their paint range, though some of their paints are very good. Their unique products (miniatures), they are free to set their own MSRP and let the market decide.
Yes, GW could charge less than they do, but they are obviously charging the market rate because they are producing and selling at capacity and working to build more capacity.
Most of the non-GW companies that offer plastic miniatures used Kickstarter to get their production up and running. The results have generally been 20 years behind GW's plastics. That's great for historicals but GW has been pushing what can be cast in plastic for quite some time now. IMO some of the stuff is overwrought with detail and especially breakage prone flourishes, but there have also been some absolutely amazing stuff I never would have believed could be done in anything but (garage kit priced) resin 10 years ago.
anyone wanting to compare GW minis to the compeition shou;ldn't be using and old space marine kit to compare. tac marine kits are kinda old and where held back from letting GW do their best by needing to be cpmpatable with older kits. if you compare the latest and greatest GW kits though I doubt there's much that compared. the sisters of battle kit for example is beautifuly detailed
Yes, GW could charge less than they do, but they are obviously charging the market rate because they are producing and selling at capacity and working to build more capacity..
Honestly this is an argument that GW charge under what the market value could be, which is supported by the fact people will bulk buy limited runs to immediately flip at profit.
Nor are those of us who are willing to pay their prices "mugs". We're well aware of how much we're paying and what we're getting in return. Everybody's different, in a different life and financial situation, and there are enough people out there willing to pay what GW charge to sustain them as a company, and even propel them to record profits. It's disingenuous to claim that anybody willing to pay GW prices is somehow willingly allowing themselves to be exploited.
You are paying massively inflated prices for model kits that depending on there age, range from dire to caught up to modern standards more or less and that's not taking the aesthetics into account.
That are used in a game with rules that can be described at best as an afterthought or at worst as dire/a handy way to flog 2-4 overpriced hardbacks a month.
You potentially paint and build them with rebaged tools and brushes witha 70% mark up over the originals and using paints that are twice the price for half the product to almost all the competitors brands.
Finally personal value is certainly subjective however actual value is not and being willingly exploited is still being exploited, while businesses do aim to make a profit most are not quite as dismissive of there customers intentionally as GW a company who specifically set out to ape Apple.
I'm not getting what books you need to replace several times per month?
Finally personal value is certainly subjective however actual value is not and being willingly exploited is still being exploited
Exploited? I can see calling it overcharged, though how one determines overcharged in a completely non-essential product is difficult at best. GW is definitely overcharging on brushes/glue and some of their paint range, though some of their paints are very good. Their unique products (miniatures), they are free to set their own MSRP and let the market decide.
Yes, GW could charge less than they do, but they are obviously charging the market rate because they are producing and selling at capacity and working to build more capacity.
Most of the non-GW companies that offer plastic miniatures used Kickstarter to get their production up and running. The results have generally been 20 years behind GW's plastics. That's great for historicals but GW has been pushing what can be cast in plastic for quite some time now. IMO some of the stuff is overwrought with detail and especially breakage prone flourishes, but there have also been some absolutely amazing stuff I never would have believed could be done in anything but (garage kit priced) resin 10 years ago.
I had read about brushes, they cost like 13% more than a market alternative. It is more of a question if it is worth that money to have company's logo on it.
In the end it seems that most people can't act as rational adults here. They are buying stuff they do not need and then blame company. They don't need expensive brushes, but are too lazy to go and buy 1 dollar brush from their supermarket. They want quality, but do not want to pay for it. They want to get miniatures and get playing as quickly as possible, but are too lazy to purchase entire armies at considerable discount from second hand providers. Then they blame GW for their own stupidity.
Ernestas wrote: posermcbogus, it is sad to see that local pricing had screwed Japanese. Though, it is not as bad as it looks like, because it means that you are living in a lot better country than other countries. For example, in relationship you are paying an exact same price as I do, because my income is certainly less than twice of yours and thus every scrap of disposable income you have is a lot higher. Though, couldn't you just import this stuff from elsewhere? We get free shipping on these miniatures and they are tax free at least here.
I also want to add that those things around model sides are mould lines. Due to how these miniatures are manufactured there is little plastic left at the edges. You have to prepare GW miniatures before assembly. As for those giant robots, yes they look impressive, but I would like to remind you that they lack depth. They are a lot cheaper to make by comparison and while I appreciate their mechanical complexity, they are just plain surfaces over plain surfaces. It is like comparing detail of a airliner vs detail or space marine.
Gundam kits have plenty of detail- just not as much as you would like.
CAD sculpting a mini is time consuming, but designing the mechanics of a highly-posable model kit is not?
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I don't know samsung or huawei phones are cheap, but apple stuff is mind blowing. Comperable or weaker machines costs two or three times as much, if they are apple. And your paying for a name and futures you can't really used outside of western europe or the US.
A skirmish GW game, costs a lot more then a skirmish game for similar fantasy or sci fi systems. And it is not like models produc
But that is the case. GW simply produces way better stuff than most its competitors. People in this thread could only show cheaper stuff which looks like toys and has no real game behind them and even if they show one for a game, it is some cheap ass nonsense which nobody had heard of it. In addition, prices are comparable with other producers.
GW does not produce the "best" models. They have released many questionable sculpts in the last 4-5 years. Models covered in smoke/skulls/superfluous stuff copy-pasted from the asset library, dynamic-but-not poses, designs that simply make zero sense (Deepkin seahorse mount with its gills......... on its belly?????) and make patently obvious that the sculptors don't do any fething research, but run blindly with what they think looks "cool" or add detail as an afterthought.
Plenty of companies also make nice-looking models, without mold slippage or mold lines everywhere. "Some cheap nonsense which nobody had heard of it" is snobbery. And a Genetic Fallacy.
and make patently obvious that the sculptors don't do any fething research, but run blindly with what they think looks "cool" or add detail as an afterthought.
dude GW practially INVETED "rule of cool" seriously you're criticizing GW for that? LOL dude where have you been the last 30 years?!
and make patently obvious that the sculptors don't do any fething research, but run blindly with what they think looks "cool" or add detail as an afterthought.
dude GW practially INVETED "rule of cool" seriously you're criticizing GW for that? LOL dude where have you been the last 30 years?!
This is like complaining about critiques of a film, by citing willful suspension of disbelief as though that magically fixes everything, when a movie world still needs to have verisimilitude to be believable. As does a game.
and make patently obvious that the sculptors don't do any fething research, but run blindly with what they think looks "cool" or add detail as an afterthought.
dude GW practially INVETED "rule of cool" seriously you're criticizing GW for that? LOL dude where have you been the last 30 years?!
This is like complaining about critiques of a film, by citing willful suspension of disbelief as though that magically fixes everything, when a movie world still needs to have verisimilitude to be believable. As does a game.
no it's like going into a fantasy movie and claiming that "that movie was lame, magic doesn't exist"40k has never tried to be realistic and "sup[er grounded in reality" that's not their art style. so criticism it's not like that is basicly like complaining a humburger isn't a pizza.
Gundam kits have plenty of detail- just not as much as you would like.
CAD sculpting a mini is time consuming, but designing the mechanics of a highly-posable model kit is not?
I'm not sure why you are saying that.
GW does not produce the "best" models. They have released many questionable sculpts in the last 4-5 years. Models covered in smoke/skulls/superfluous stuff copy-pasted from the asset library, dynamic-but-not poses, designs that simply make zero sense (Deepkin seahorse mount with its gills......... on its belly?????) and make patently obvious that the sculptors don't do any fething research, but run blindly with what they think looks "cool" or add detail as an afterthought.
Plenty of companies also make nice-looking models, without mold slippage or mold lines everywhere. "Some cheap nonsense which nobody had heard of it" is snobbery. And a Genetic Fallacy.
I did not said that. Though, I do say that it is best in a market in terms of quality and variety it produces. Sure, they had duds here and there, mostly in a past now as new releases all were stellar in my eyes. If you wish to disagree, I want to see other company which competes with GW. I only see small, independent producers making far more expensive resin miniatures without fraction of variety and having just loose collection of miniatures, often mimicking something already. As for quality of miniatures, like I had said, you have to prepare GW miniatures for assembly. What you are referring to is called "mold scraping". Hobbyist have to scrape it with mold remover tool. There are other ways to prepare them too.
Ernestas wrote: posermcbogus, it is sad to see that local pricing had screwed Japanese. Though, it is not as bad as it looks like, because it means that you are living in a lot better country than other countries. For example, in relationship you are paying an exact same price as I do, because my income is certainly less than twice of yours and thus every scrap of disposable income you have is a lot higher. Though, couldn't you just import this stuff from elsewhere? We get free shipping on these miniatures and they are tax free at least here.
I also want to add that those things around model sides are mould lines. Due to how these miniatures are manufactured there is little plastic left at the edges. You have to prepare GW miniatures before assembly. As for those giant robots, yes they look impressive, but I would like to remind you that they lack depth. They are a lot cheaper to make by comparison and while I appreciate their mechanical complexity, they are just plain surfaces over plain surfaces. It is like comparing detail of a airliner vs detail or space marine.
Are you sure we're paying the exact same price? Surely if someone living in "a lot better country", making, by your estimations double your income, thinks GW pricing is insane, then...
...it's insane?
Regardless of your meandering points about Japan vs your own country, GW is ludicrously priced. Like, yeah man, I may well make more money than you. But I'm still not going to blow what fun money I do have on an awful deal like 10 Sisters of battle for over ￥8000.
Yeah, I could import it from elsewhere. Perversely, despite there not being a single GW in all of South Korea, it would be cheaper to buy the models on GWs international store, then have them sent to Korea, than it is to buy them from GW in Japan. I have friends there who could post them (kinda) cheaply to me out here, or wait until my next visit. But again, just because it's so insanely inconvenient, and my savings would work out at probably... less than $10? No thanks. I'm not so desperate for these minis that I'll jump through that many hoops to get them, just for that itty bit cheaper. I shouldn't have to make up the gaps because GW have decided to half-ass it out here, and make buying their products the least attractive option for Japanese modelers.
Jumping back to your comment about mould lines - this was more me going off about these https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2019-10-23.jpg Another instance of GW charging silly money for something in an already-crowded market. It doesn't make sense to me. Are they trying to break into the Japanese market? That they consistently buy out space every month in Hobby Japan suggests yes, but their prices for the products they are selling speak otherwise.
As for your comment about Gundam being cheaper to make? You almost would be right. In that your average bandai sprue is a lot thinner than it's GW rival. But as for detail? No. You simply aren't correct. Even 1/144 gundam are designed to within fractions of milimeters. The aesthetic is less crowded, but the precision is razor-sharp. GW parts are chunkier, and thicker, true, but Gundams are designed to both articulate, and support continued stress is certain spots. That PG unicorn I mentioned is designed to be filled with LEDs, and still be completely poseable AND transformable. Look at the inner frame parts for the RG line. Tell me, afterwords that anyGW piece even comes close in terms of complex manufacturing, or even design. Sure, Bandai has a bigger financial cushion, their customer service isn't a patch on GW, and here, at least, they aren't imports. But that doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, for a basic, 10-man troop kit, GW charges what other companies only dare charge for bespoke, top-of-the-range, VERY LARGE models.
frankly, gw's prices are absurd, regardless if it is it's subline FW or mainline GW.
Infact FW you see it even more, considering the Resin used for FW models is abismmal comparatively to companies like Anvil , etc, which also charge a lot less with a lot more customizability on the custommer end sadly.
Karol wrote: Yes, but it is like apple stuff. All their stuff costs 3xtimes as much as Huaweis or Samsungs. You are praying for the brand.
w40k stuff is probably the same way. They could sell it for less, but if majority of buyers are willing to buy 10 models at 60$, why shouldn't they keep such a price.
And for places where 60$ per squad is not as acceptable, there are recasters.
Good God, no! I got scammed by a recaster and I’m STILL fighting to get my money back (it’s been almost a month since I received the crap). Short of it is I bought on a site that had the unit’s name and no product description with an American address, but I received from China. PayPal keeps finding in favor of them despite an official letter from GW that the models are recast (after PayPal agent even promised a refund due to fraud). The models are very bad quality, and one steed/mount isn’t even fully formed. Do not suggest supporting recasters! They’re a blight upon the hobby. Every freaking recaster should be shut down with extreme prejudice.
Karol wrote: Yes, but it is like apple stuff. All their stuff costs 3xtimes as much as Huaweis or Samsungs. You are praying for the brand.
w40k stuff is probably the same way. They could sell it for less, but if majority of buyers are willing to buy 10 models at 60$, why shouldn't they keep such a price.
And for places where 60$ per squad is not as acceptable, there are recasters.
Good God, no! I got scammed by a recaster and I’m STILL fighting to get my money back (it’s been almost a month since I received the crap). Short of it is I bought on a site that had the unit’s name and no product description with an American address, but I received from China. PayPal keeps finding in favor of them despite an official letter from GW that the models are recast (after PayPal agent even promised a refund due to fraud). The models are very bad quality, and one steed/mount isn’t even fully formed. Do not suggest supporting recasters! They’re a blight upon the hobby. Every freaking recaster should be shut down with extreme prejudice.
Get down off your high horse.
YOU are also to blame for your own problems. You've admitted, that based on the price, you suspected that these were recasts from the get go. And you ordered them anyways.
The only reason you're complaining is that what you got was crap. If it had looked good to great? You wouldn't have a single problem. You'd have saved a good chunk of change and walked away smiling knowing full well what you have.
I was talking about ordering from a simple international online store and being shipped to you. Is that a possibility in Japan?
As for cost. Here is reality in Lithuania and all developing world. A minimum wage is 400 euros. I fall into bracket of top 10% earners in my country. I do have quite considerable personal income, but where in other nations you would pay 10 bucks for a meal, I pay 3 euros for it. Where you pay 700 pounds for a room, I pay 180 euros. This means that if you manage to get same amount of your income as disposable income percentage wise, it will be a lot more in your country than in my own. An average person here can expect to earn 800 euros net. 500 euros will go in mandatory expenses like debt, rent, food, bills, etc. In Lithuania, a person has around 300 euros of disposable income per month. This is for working adult with no considerable financial burdens. For everyone else like students and other poorer people, they have to pay a lot more to get into hobby. This is why I always smile when people from first world can't afford their own hobbies. It is so cheap and easy for you to get into them with only some financial discipline and not screwing your life up in such a way that you are not stuck in dead-end, low paying job.
As for Gundam models, I had checked them out. They cost around 30-60 euros and I think we have different interpretation of details. These robots look smooth with sharp curvatures. The difference is that surface of a model looks like plain plastic, it is a often a smooth surface with rarely any details on it. Where are battle scars? Where are wires, weapons and their ammo belts? Where are insignias and faction symbols? You see, with GW models you get small plastic piece with a lot of small details on them. While Gundam might be more mechanically complex, these models lack in detail depth. A single bit is just a smooth surface while GW model's detail depth makes it to have a lot of extra nuance to it. For example, my Bloodletter head has Khorne symbol imprinted into it. It also have rough surface with countless small rumps. This is essential difference between Gundam and GW miniatures. Though, I can't speak about miniatures you had shown me. Those literally do not exist in our region as I never saw them being sold.
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I don't think that those two compare with level of detail. To me Gundam looks like plastic toys by comparison.
See what I mean? This Great Unclean One has some detail no matter where you look. Its skin looks like a hide, it has subtle curvature, pox marks. Its belly is insanely detailed. Its weapons, head is full of detail. There is simply no comparison in quality when compared to Gundam model.
Comparing GW models to Gundam is disheartening. I actually got back into GW from Gunpla. Hadn't touched a miniature in years. Was very surprised that the construction guide hadn't improved in around 20 years. Maybe a little surprised to see a lot of the models that were old and in need of updating when I'd last played were still being sold too. But hey. there's a lot of near-antique Gundam kits still being sold too.
The awkward construction on newer kits and CAD-enabled cutting of parts at weird angles took some getting used to, but the bounty of models I'd not seen in my years away was nice. Too many instruction booklets with unclear pictures, and mislabelled parts didn't help. I think Bandai send someone round your house with a fruit basket if you get a kit from them where the parts are numbered wrong, but I think someone in GW is maybe just taking a shot of absinthe every time it happens...and they've been dead for a year.
Then you look at the pricing...
Oh my. Imperial Knights are nice, big, chunky kits with a few options. Right? Um...no. They're not. They're a little bigger, and less complicated than a couple of basic HG Gundams, that cost maybe 1000yen each. I was actually amazed when I saw a Knight in person for the first time. They're so small! SO small. I've love some because the design of them is very nice, but I've yet to be able to justify the price, in part because I can get 2 big Master Grade kits for the price if I want. It's a significant step down in size and engineering. Options too, depending on the kit. I'd love GW's partnership with Bandai see them license out some of the larger designs and see us get Knights or Flyers or Superheavy tanks for half the price, with loads of easily swappable options, opening panel gimmicks and in-built space for pre-existing LED kits. Won't happen though.
Gundams, and mecha kits in general, go for the same style of detail as actual scale models. You won't find a kit of F-14 or Su-27 with the same...thick blobs of detail that GW does. There's a reason why a scale model looks like a scale model, and GW's super-heavy stuff looks like a toy.
Ahh, yes, no surface detail. Because you refuse to do even a basic google search, here is the model that is cheaper here than a single troop choice for SoB. And it's LARGE.
No surface detail, huh? Beyond a varnish, and some waterslide transfers, that's the build out of the box.
Those pictures that you posted are mostly 1/144 HGs - a kids toy - with missing parts, and going off the hands, pretty old, while the larger ones in the back are very early 1/100 MGs - also quite old. Stop moving the goalposts. I never mentioned old kits. I specifically mentioned newer ones, that price wise came close to what GW decides to charge their fans, but those kits were cheaper than much, much smaller GW kits.
And I never said GW sculpts were bad to begin with??? Those bloodletters are fine. But you're being pretty obstinate when it comes to recognizing that just because something is designed differently, doesn't mean it lacks detail. Precision is still precision, weather it be a bajillion skulls and pock-marks, or some delicious crisp lines and vents. To re-state, I am a fan. A frustrated fan, because I'm increasingly alienated by a company I otherwise really like, seemingly drunk on their own profits, continually jacking prices up. If you're fine with it, cool man, you enjoy paying $80 for a box of 10 ordinary space men in 3 years time, but I think it's unreasonable, and I'm bummed about it.
I'm comparing the newest SoB troops with a single kit from a few years ago. I've mentioned it in a few posts, but as you seem very eager to get on the high horse about being able to pay - baring in mind I said nothing about "I can't afford" and more "There are other fun things that are more cost-efficient, and these prices are just getting silly" - it's a bad deal. Just straight up. Specifically for me, and my region, but still. I can't help but imagine that there aren't similar cases across the board.
Karol wrote: Yes, but it is like apple stuff. All their stuff costs 3xtimes as much as Huaweis or Samsungs. You are praying for the brand.
w40k stuff is probably the same way. They could sell it for less, but if majority of buyers are willing to buy 10 models at 60$, why shouldn't they keep such a price.
And for places where 60$ per squad is not as acceptable, there are recasters.
Good God, no! I got scammed by a recaster and I’m STILL fighting to get my money back (it’s been almost a month since I received the crap). Short of it is I bought on a site that had the unit’s name and no product description with an American address, but I received from China. PayPal keeps finding in favor of them despite an official letter from GW that the models are recast (after PayPal agent even promised a refund due to fraud). The models are very bad quality, and one steed/mount isn’t even fully formed. Do not suggest supporting recasters! They’re a blight upon the hobby. Every freaking recaster should be shut down with extreme prejudice.
Get down off your high horse.
YOU are also to blame for your own problems. You've admitted, that based on the price, you suspected that these were recasts from the get go. And you ordered them anyways.
The only reason you're complaining is that what you got was crap. If it had looked good to great? You wouldn't have a single problem. You'd have saved a good chunk of change and walked away smiling knowing full well what you have.
Have we met? No? Then don’t assume you know how I’d react. Originally, when I made the purchase I thought I found an awesome cyber Monday deal. After I made the purchase I saw stuff that didn’t look on the level, but decided to give them the benefit of the doubt and took a chance, knowing it was possible the items were recast (for what it’s worth, I know of one legit online store I can get models 30% off, and this was just a couple dollars below on cyber Monday). I called GW the day the stuff arrived, and even though I could technically even fix some of the stuff for at least one fully serviceable unit, I’ve offered to send the models to GW to dispose of, asked what they wanted done with the stuff, and even asked PayPal. Don’t act like you know me. I made the purchase in good faith before I started having doubts. So yes, I’ve been fighting them since. I’m not on a high horse; I made a mistake and I’m trying to get it rectified while working with GW to shut down a recaster’s store. I contacted GW the second I saw they were resin, before I even fully started inspecting the stuff.
GW does not produce the "best" models. They have released many questionable sculpts in the last 4-5 years. Models covered in smoke/skulls/superfluous stuff copy-pasted from the asset library, dynamic-but-not poses, designs that simply make zero sense (Deepkin seahorse mount with its gills......... on its belly?????) and make patently obvious that the sculptors don't do any fething research, but run blindly with what they think looks "cool" or add detail as an afterthought.
Plenty of companies also make nice-looking models, without mold slippage or mold lines everywhere. "Some cheap nonsense which nobody had heard of it" is snobbery. And a Genetic Fallacy.
I've never encountered a kit with slippage or lines.
And why does it matter where the gills are? It's clearly not a traditional sea horse. I find people who get upset by the most inane gak have the least convincing position. There are plenty of eh models, but there are few companies that can produce kits like GW's top level and when they do you're going to find the pricing in the same bracket.
I've never encountered a kit with slippage or lines.
And why does it matter where the gills are? It's clearly not a traditional sea horse. I find people who get upset by the most inane gak have the least convincing position. There are plenty of eh models, but there are few companies that can produce kits like GW's top level and when they do you're going to find the pricing in the same bracket.
yes, but the size and resources of a company matter, as is the expiriance of the people working for them. It is one thing to sit me down and sculpt a model, and it ending up looking beyond bad. It is another if a company with huge resources and expiriance, is unable to sculpt humanoid faces. In fact they seem to be regresing a well bit. Because really ancient models like for example azrael look better then the new stuff they do.
As the gills examples goes. If you make something look like something, then it has to be true to the patern. If someone makes a tank and informs that the long pipe at the end of the turret is the tanks exhaust, and the actual weapon is under the track guards, people will call foul. No matter how fantasy the tank is suppose to be. Don't have to be a sea creature nut to see a problem with GW details anyway. They often slap them on to cover up the fact that their models look like cheap toys, a lot of marine and specially the DG stuff looks like that. Which against is strange, because at the same time the company can make realy good looking 1ksons or Space Dwarfs for AoS.
I've never encountered a kit with slippage or lines.
And why does it matter where the gills are? It's clearly not a traditional sea horse. I find people who get upset by the most inane gak have the least convincing position. There are plenty of eh models, but there are few companies that can produce kits like GW's top level and when they do you're going to find the pricing in the same bracket.
yes, but the size and resources of a company matter, as is the expiriance of the people working for them. It is one thing to sit me down and sculpt a model, and it ending up looking beyond bad. It is another if a company with huge resources and expiriance, is unable to sculpt humanoid faces. In fact they seem to be regresing a well bit. Because really ancient models like for example azrael look better then the new stuff they do.
As the gills examples goes. If you make something look like something, then it has to be true to the patern. If someone makes a tank and informs that the long pipe at the end of the turret is the tanks exhaust, and the actual weapon is under the track guards, people will call foul. No matter how fantasy the tank is suppose to be. Don't have to be a sea creature nut to see a problem with GW details anyway. They often slap them on to cover up the fact that their models look like cheap toys, a lot of marine and specially the DG stuff looks like that. Which against is strange, because at the same time the company can make realy good looking 1ksons or Space Dwarfs for AoS.
eh, how "good" something looks is very subjective.
I like the Fish Elves, and even having had it explained to me, can't think of the gills in question standing out as "wrong", and definitely not "bad". I've certainly seen my share of models that weren't for me, but often I can still accept the do look detailed or are technically impressive. Amalia Novalia (?) (their first plastic Sister) has an okay design, one I'm glad carried over to the new army, but I don't get why people like her model so much. It's so squint. It really looks like she's on a slope trying to stand sideways, like a boat rocking or something. I'm not keen on that model for that reason, but I'd never say it's a bad quality model.
There seems to be a bit of weird goalpost-moving going on here. If GW's figures are so terrible and unrealistic, why do you want to buy them anyway, regardless of how expensive they are?
Yes but the "seahorse" doesn't have an anal phin, it doesn't even have a single tail (it has three); it hasn't got any gill cover on its head. Its got a unicorn horn on its head.
It's clearly only VERY loosely based on a real world seahorse. In fact I'd say the only thing that gives it any similarity its its overall upper body pose and the fact it has a crest - I mean freaking heck its got jaws and teeth rather than a snoot face.
It's not trying to be a real world sea-horse, its a fantasy world one so its gills being in a different place isn't abnormal.
Other times I've heard people complain at odd poses such as on some of the modern four legged mounts. When in reality they are actually pretty darn good faithful reproductions of animals in running/walking motion. Just paused with a camera at specific steps that you might otherwise not "see" with the human eye (unless you already know the body motions to watch for).
Also I agree it is odd when people clearly collect and play and yet trash talk the product really hard. If you're trash talking a big part of your hobby that hard, perhaps its not the models nor the company but you. Perhaps its time to move on or re-evaluate things. Because if you really hate something that much is it really worth it for you to continue without re-evaluation?
GW does not produce the "best" models. They have released many questionable sculpts in the last 4-5 years. Models covered in smoke/skulls/superfluous stuff copy-pasted from the asset library, dynamic-but-not poses, designs that simply make zero sense (Deepkin seahorse mount with its gills......... on its belly?????) and make patently obvious that the sculptors don't do any fething research, but run blindly with what they think looks "cool" or add detail as an afterthought.
Plenty of companies also make nice-looking models, without mold slippage or mold lines everywhere. "Some cheap nonsense which nobody had heard of it" is snobbery. And a Genetic Fallacy.
I've never encountered a kit with slippage or lines.
And why does it matter where the gills are? It's clearly not a traditional sea horse. I find people who get upset by the most inane gak have the least convincing position. There are plenty of eh models, but there are few companies that can produce kits like GW's top level and when they do you're going to find the pricing in the same bracket.
Because it destroys my suspension of disbelief. The belly is the softest, most vulnerable spot on a critter, and now the thing is breathing from there? Nature doesn't work this stupidly, fantasy or no. As I said, a world, any world, needs verisimilitude.
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Nazrak wrote: There seems to be a bit of weird goalpost-moving going on here. If GW's figures are so terrible and unrealistic, why do you want to buy them anyway, regardless of how expensive they are?
Maybe because I'm capable of looking at each individual kit/model on its own, and don't make blanket judgments about a company's many, many, many, offerings? Because I can dislike different models for different reasons, or like others within the same range?
Most of the 40k stuff is decent, at least the ones I'm actually interested in. I do find that since they've adopted CAD sculpting that organic features like hair and cloth look "off." Some of the Primaris look good, Admech is a great line, DW are sweet (especially for skirmish games like Zone Raiders) but overpriced per usual, etc., etc., etc.
AOS, on the other hand............ Don't get me wrong, I especially like the Sky Dwarves, but the model designers/sculptors clearly don't stop and think much when they're working.
A world needs a consistent set of rules to work with to be believable. Otherwise you end up with a fighter jet squadron appearing during the Battle of Helm's Deep.
Because it destroys my suspension of disbelief. The belly is the softest, most vulnerable spot on a critter, and now the thing is breathing from there? Nature doesn't work this stupidly, fantasy or no. As I said, a world, any world, needs verisimilitude.
You're assigning some sort of prescience to evolution and it just doesn't work that way.
What do you think of this guy?
Spoiler:
Have you also ever seen the underside of a Manta?
Spoiler:
Or wondered at the sillyness of the laryngeal nerve?
GW does not produce the "best" models. They have released many questionable sculpts in the last 4-5 years. Models covered in smoke/skulls/superfluous stuff copy-pasted from the asset library, dynamic-but-not poses, designs that simply make zero sense (Deepkin seahorse mount with its gills......... on its belly?????) and make patently obvious that the sculptors don't do any fething research, but run blindly with what they think looks "cool" or add detail as an afterthought.
Plenty of companies also make nice-looking models, without mold slippage or mold lines everywhere. "Some cheap nonsense which nobody had heard of it" is snobbery. And a Genetic Fallacy.
I've never encountered a kit with slippage or lines.
And why does it matter where the gills are? It's clearly not a traditional sea horse. I find people who get upset by the most inane gak have the least convincing position. There are plenty of eh models, but there are few companies that can produce kits like GW's top level and when they do you're going to find the pricing in the same bracket.
Because it destroys my suspension of disbelief. The belly is the softest, most vulnerable spot on a critter, and now the thing is breathing from there? Nature doesn't work this stupidly, fantasy or no. As I said, a world, any world, needs verisimilitude.
I'd remind you that at one time the duck billed platypus was considered a made up creature because of how many rules of nature it broke.
I get your point, but at the same time the belly gets used for loads of things, heck if we go back to the original sea-horse animal they have a pouch on their bellies where they keep their babies. It's soft and vulnerable, but also an area many animals will protect- we don't breath through our backs.
This critter just breaths through gills on its belly; it might even be that its lungs are built differently and its whole filtration system happens within the lung structure. This might mean that its capable of breathing water direct. Also I think we need a fish expert because it wouldn't surprise me if there are fish with gills in odd places and not always behind the cheek area
I mean, if you're genuinely concerned about real-world plausibility, I think it's pretty safe to say Warhammer, of whatever stripe, is perhaps not for you.
Nazrak wrote: I mean, if you're genuinely concerned about real-world plausibility, I think it's pretty safe to say Warhammer, of whatever stripe, is perhaps not for you.
Did I say anything about "real-world plausibility?" No. AOS-worlds plausibility? 40k plausibility? Yes. Spongebob is not remotely realistic, but the world of Bikini Bottom is consistent enough and authentic enough to be believable.
Nazrak wrote: I mean, if you're genuinely concerned about real-world plausibility, I think it's pretty safe to say Warhammer, of whatever stripe, is perhaps not for you.
Did I say anything about "real-world plausibility?" No. AOS-worlds plausibility? 40k plausibility? Yes. Spongebob is not remotely realistic, but the world of Bikini Bottom is consistent enough and authentic enough to be believable.
Nazrak wrote: I mean, if you're genuinely concerned about real-world plausibility, I think it's pretty safe to say Warhammer, of whatever stripe, is perhaps not for you.
Did I say anything about "real-world plausibility?" No. AOS-worlds plausibility? 40k plausibility? Yes. Spongebob is not remotely realistic, but the world of Bikini Bottom is consistent enough and authentic enough to be believable.
...but Patrick's mouth should be where his stomach is...
I'm keen to compare Gundam and GW miniatures side by side in order to see if we are behind or ahead. If we really are getting best stuff we can. I'm interested to see GW pricing to see if we are getting ripped off due to their monopoly. So far I'm pleased by what I had seen. I acknowledge that GW regional pricing is gak and I still did not seen anything which could excuse a fact that GW has erratic pricing which causes them to suddenly raise prices of some deals and to price others far higher than other deals they are offering. I still can remember when I saw Adeptus Titanicus bundle a lot cheaper on GW store and then it just went up in price for no reason. Eldar bundle is also stupidly priced. You can often see price changes when inspecting original prices at third party retailers. They usually mark identical original price of GW produce and when GW sneak price rise, those third party retailers rarely if ever update their own pricing.
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posermcbogus wrote: Ahh, yes, no surface detail. Because you refuse to do even a basic google search, here is the model that is cheaper here than a single troop choice for SoB. And it's LARGE.
No surface detail, huh? Beyond a varnish, and some waterslide transfers, that's the build out of the box.
Those pictures that you posted are mostly 1/144 HGs - a kids toy - with missing parts, and going off the hands, pretty old, while the larger ones in the back are very early 1/100 MGs - also quite old. Stop moving the goalposts. I never mentioned old kits. I specifically mentioned newer ones, that price wise came close to what GW decides to charge their fans, but those kits were cheaper than much, much smaller GW kits. And I never said GW sculpts were bad to begin with??? Those bloodletters are fine. But you're being pretty obstinate when it comes to recognizing that just because something is designed differently, doesn't mean it lacks detail. Precision is still precision, weather it be a bajillion skulls and pock-marks, or some delicious crisp lines and vents. To re-state, I am a fan. A frustrated fan, because I'm increasingly alienated by a company I otherwise really like, seemingly drunk on their own profits, continually jacking prices up. If you're fine with it, cool man, you enjoy paying $80 for a box of 10 ordinary space men in 3 years time, but I think it's unreasonable, and I'm bummed about it.
I'm comparing the newest SoB troops with a single kit from a few years ago. I've mentioned it in a few posts, but as you seem very eager to get on the high horse about being able to pay - baring in mind I said nothing about "I can't afford" and more "There are other fun things that are more cost-efficient, and these prices are just getting silly" - it's a bad deal. Just straight up. Specifically for me, and my region, but still. I can't help but imagine that there aren't similar cases across the board.
You yourself had referred to that scale, so I was using what you had given me. In addition, bigger scale models cost like 50 euros each at very least. You get an entire box of SoB for that price and it is pushing into price range of Lords of War. Model which you are referring specifically costs 90 dollars and some retailers have it over 120 dollars, you can get a greater demon or pretty much any single unit from GW at that price. As for comparison, this is the only picture which I could found and some of GW models also were very old. Quality of those did not mattered as much, because you were talking about how big those things were. Your entire point is quite convoluted due to hyperbole. You claim that 1/144 models for 20 bucks are better than GW models, but when I compare them, you suddenly start comparing far more expensive kits which makes your point about price quite moot. I do understand your frustration that GW had messed up pricing in your region. I wanted to show you that it is not unique to your region and at the other end, they screw up us in same manner for asking identical prices for regions who earn a lot less. We are lucky to experience massive inflation in everything which in recent decade closed gap considerably, but prior to that it was just as bad here as you are experiencing in your region.
I do not know, I still do not like pristine look on this mech. I also still not convinced that it has more details than GW model. GW usually cram more details per square cm than Gundam seems to bother with. While this look might look better to you, I believe this is due to cultural difference. There is a good reason why all this Japanese nonsense does not get popular in west mainstream and vise versa, western stuff doesn't hold mainstream appeal in Japan. I'm simply not attracted to Gundam models even if there would be a huge variety of them in my local hobby shop. I would rather build something more expensive from GW solely just for assembly and painting rather than do Gundam project. Sure, I'm curious about those giant robots, but they do not attract me enough to pick it over Warhammer miniatures. I'm more interested in assembling Tiger, Ting Tiger then it would be between massive Star Wars Millenium Falcon and some massive Gundam mech.
I do not know, I still do not like pristine look on this mech. I also still not convinced that it has more details than GW model. GW usually cram more details per square cm than Gundam seems to bother with. While this look might look better to you, I believe this is due to cultural difference. There is a good reason why all this Japanese nonsense does not get popular in west mainstream and vise versa, western stuff doesn't hold mainstream appeal in Japan. I'm simply not attracted to Gundam models even if there would be a huge variety of them in my local hobby shop. I would rather build something more expensive from GW solely just for assembly and painting rather than do Gundam project. Sure, I'm curious about those giant robots, but they do not attract me enough to pick it over Warhammer miniatures. I'm more interested in assembling Tiger, Ting Tiger then it would be between massive Star Wars Millenium Falcon and some massive Gundam mech.
More detail is not always better. GW has gone overboard with detail since around the start of 7th ed.
I would rather spend $80-$100 on a Gundam than an Exorcist...........
Could you elaborate more on the "cultural difference?" And what precisely do you mean by "Japanese nonsense?"
Ernestas wrote: I'm interested to see GW pricing to see if we are getting ripped off due to their monopoly.
GW do not have a monopoly.
indeed, GW is not the only miniture game maker on the market. they don;'t have a monopoly just ebcause their IP is the most popular.
GW has monopoly over Warhammer stuff. For fans of Warhammer lore there is no other alternative than to buy their crack from sole GW dealer. For example, I do not even consider other miniatures to be nearly as valuable as of GW, because it has such rich setting behind it. It makes collecting your Thousand Sons all that more pleasurable then there are several books and audio dramas about Thousand Sons doing stuff in lore. Also, having matured and popular tabletop game is just icing on a cake. Miniature gains more value if you can use it which that makes their product better than some random miniature from random producer.
The issue is that Asian culture was as unsuccessful penetrating western markets as vice vera. I don't see much influence of it in our everyday life. In fact, seeing something uniquely eastern is still a novelty. Our movies remain heavily western. Our games rarely has any eastern elements. Music, entertainment. It is rare to see Eastern produce doing well in our markets. As for my local hobby shop, it is exclusively western. There aren't any silly robots. Board games, tabletop, miniatures, card games (with possible exception of Yu-Gi-Oh which is not too popular here) are of western manufactures. In order to get something truly eastern we have special shops which import your ordinary stuff as complete novelty to our culture.
This happens because we value different things in life. This reflects in what we like to see. A great example is Dark Souls. It is gritty, realistic combat. In order for Japanese publisher to get successful in our market, they had to specifically engineer their game to us. Why? If we like Asian stuff, why they had to consciously make product for western market? Vice versa is also true, why companies like Blizzard produce nonsense to Asian market at the scorn of their fans? Do you remember that fiasco with having no phones? Why product which is specifically tailored to Asian market is an instant flop in western market even before it was released? These differences in culture makes certain things to be more appreciated while others disliked. Further arguing and trying to convince other people that no really, those mechs look really cool is inherently inhelpful. There is good reason why those Gundam robots are complete rarity in Europe.
Ernestas wrote: I'm interested to see GW pricing to see if we are getting ripped off due to their monopoly.
GW do not have a monopoly.
indeed, GW is not the only miniture game maker on the market. they don;'t have a monopoly just ebcause their IP is the most popular.
GW has monopoly over Warhammer stuff. For fans of Warhammer lore there is no other alternative than to buy their crack from sole GW dealer.
well yeah thats because warhammer is their IP. that's not a monopoly. a Monopoly would be if GW was the only company that made plastic mini's for gaming. the IP is a feature of GW's brand. and as it is 40k has FAAR more 3rd party compeition then any other IP out there. there are 3rd party sites where you can buy almost an entire "not space marines" army
Ernestas wrote: I'm interested to see GW pricing to see if we are getting ripped off due to their monopoly.
GW do not have a monopoly.
indeed, GW is not the only miniture game maker on the market. they don;'t have a monopoly just ebcause their IP is the most popular.
GW has monopoly over Warhammer stuff. For fans of Warhammer lore there is no other alternative than to buy their crack from sole GW dealer. For example, I do not even consider other miniatures to be nearly as valuable as of GW, because it has such rich setting behind it. It makes collecting your Thousand Sons all that more pleasurable then there are several books and audio dramas about Thousand Sons doing stuff in lore. Also, having matured and popular tabletop game is just icing on a cake. Miniature gains more value if you can use it which that makes their product better than some random miniature from random producer.
Monopoly: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service." That applies to Warhammer universe and thus they have a monopoly for such goods. It is not like I can just go to other supplier and get an alternative. Warhammer is fairly unique IP and until recently, alternative models for their produce were sparse. For example, RagingHeroes are only major provider of miniatures which I know who started competing with GW for same stuff. It remains to be seen if they can provide new produce. I know one or two others who produces similar stuff, but from first impression, they seem pretty dead in term of new releases and competition. Only recently 3D printing is getting good enough to start competing with GW for miniatures. If they start producing duds, then we have an option to invest our time and money into setting up 3D printing and simply purchasing or designing miniatures ourselves.
Ernestas wrote: Monopoly: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service." That applies to Warhammer universe and thus they have a monopoly for such goods. It is not like I can just go to other supplier and get an alternative.
Er, yeah. It is like that. There are other miniature games. Many others. Whether or not you think they're as good as GW games is irrelevant.
What you're saying is the equivalent of "Ford have a monopoly on selling Ford cars".
Ernestas wrote: Monopoly: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service." That applies to Warhammer universe and thus they have a monopoly for such goods.
No. They have rights to their intellectual property, just like any other company. The fact you prefer their IP to that of other wargames or miniatures manufacturers is not GW's problem, and does not constitute a monopoly.
GW has monopoly over Warhammer stuff. For fans of Warhammer lore there is no other alternative than to buy their crack from sole GW dealer. For example, I do not even consider other miniatures to be nearly as valuable as of GW, because it has such rich setting behind it. It makes collecting your Thousand Sons all that more pleasurable then there are several books and audio dramas about Thousand Sons doing stuff in lore. Also, having matured and popular tabletop game is just icing on a cake. Miniature gains more value if you can use it which that makes their product better than some random miniature from random producer.
As for Japanese and cultural difference, I will look into providing an example after lunch.
Plenty of non-GW sculpts for warhammer. I have even seen thousand son ones.
Ernestas wrote: Monopoly: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service." That applies to Warhammer universe and thus they have a monopoly for such goods. It is not like I can just go to other supplier and get an alternative.
Er, yeah. It is like that. There are other miniature games. Many others. Whether or not you think they're as good as GW games is irrelevant.
What you're saying is the equivalent of "Ford have a monopoly on selling Ford cars".
That does not follow same logic. In this case Ford can produce Ford cars, but also all cars who look like Ford cars are exclusive to Ford cars. While it is often grey area in trademarking, it effectively monopolizes market for people who want something which look like Ford car, but doesn't like Ford offering for one reason or another. This is what GW does. It had a monopoly on Warhammer universe. I'm not talking that a third party could produce same or near same version of miniature which GW produces. I'm talking about third party produces something which would not look out of place in Warhammer world and you could pass it as part of universe. This is what we were lacking and only recently we got more producers who make Warhammer stuff. I'm curious that others remark as "always having". Other competitors have sparse offerings and seem pretty dead by comparison.
Ernestas wrote: Monopoly: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service." That applies to Warhammer universe and thus they have a monopoly for such goods. It is not like I can just go to other supplier and get an alternative.
Er, yeah. It is like that. There are other miniature games. Many others. Whether or not you think they're as good as GW games is irrelevant.
What you're saying is the equivalent of "Ford have a monopoly on selling Ford cars".
That does not follow same logic. In this case Ford can produce Ford cars, but also all cars who look like Ford cars are exclusive to Ford cars. While it is often grey area in trademarking, it effectively monopolizes market for people who want something which look like Ford car, but doesn't like Ford offering for one reason or another. This is what GW does. It had a monopoly on Warhammer universe. I'm not talking that a third party could produce same or near same version of miniature which GW produces. I'm talking about third party produces something which would not look out of place in Warhammer world and you could pass it as part of universe. This is what we were lacking and only recently we got more producers who make Warhammer stuff. I'm curious that others remark as "always having". Other competitors have sparse offerings and seem pretty dead by comparison.
and thats how things work, aestetic apperances can be copy righted, thats not a monopoly. there is compeition for GW. the compeition might not be exactly what you want and perhaps a lower quality grade, apperance etc but every market is like that. and yeah sometimes it means due to your finances you end up settling for a ford when you really wanted a Porsche
Ernestas wrote: Monopoly: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service." That applies to Warhammer universe and thus they have a monopoly for such goods. It is not like I can just go to other supplier and get an alternative.
Er, yeah. It is like that. There are other miniature games. Many others. Whether or not you think they're as good as GW games is irrelevant.
What you're saying is the equivalent of "Ford have a monopoly on selling Ford cars".
That does not follow same logic. In this case Ford can produce Ford cars, but also all cars who look like Ford cars are exclusive to Ford cars. While it is often grey area in trademarking, it effectively monopolizes market for people who want something which look like Ford car, but doesn't like Ford offering for one reason or another. This is what GW does. It had a monopoly on Warhammer universe. I'm not talking that a third party could produce same or near same version of miniature which GW produces. I'm talking about third party produces something which would not look out of place in Warhammer world and you could pass it as part of universe. This is what we were lacking and only recently we got more producers who make Warhammer stuff. I'm curious that others remark as "always having". Other competitors have sparse offerings and seem pretty dead by comparison.
and thats how things work, aestetic apperances can be copy righted, thats not a monopoly. there is compeition for GW. the compeition might not be exactly what you want and perhaps a lower quality grade, apperance etc but every market is like that. and yeah sometimes it means due to your finances you end up settling for a ford when you really wanted a Porsche
Copy right law, is preciscly a monopoly, in theory on time........ it also serves to monopolize stuff and is especially in the case of the US prolonged and artificially lobbied for at the expense of the end user. which is also why free use on plattforms like youtube is dying out.
It is meaningless rhetoric. What other competition there was to GW until relatively recently who could produce quality miniatures and keep updating their offerings? I'm genuinely interested to discover similar miniatures to what GW offers and to order miniatures which I like more over what GW offers me. In my experience, it is rather an exception that any producer can manufacture something which could be replaced for Great Unclean One as an example and be argued that it is different looking greater demon of Nurgle. There is one producer who produces infantry units which could be converted, but that is not the same. I'm talking something like RagingHeroes where you could buy Sisters of Battle from them (or however they are called there) and could pass them for a Sister of Battle without modifications.
Though, from time to time I see killer miniatures from obscure third party suppliers which I would want to purchase. Other times they provide me with support miniatures for my GW projects. For example, I had purchased two pairs of maggots for my Nurgle miniatures.
Edit: I had found out a nice video about GW pricing.
Though, his explanation doesn't hold true. I need a lot of demons in order to get access to their most powerful abilities, but they are often priced as an elite unit choices.
Eh, No hobby story offers more than a 10% discount and all in my area only offer a 5%, so even if your spending £100 thats only £5 off, which is basically nothing, so i tend to usually buy my stuff from the local offical warhammer shop since its a 6 minute walk fro me compared to a 10 minture drive to go to a hobby shop with a 5% discount. They also tend to have more stock and more variety in store which is nice, and if they dont have something i can just order it straight away from the touch screen device on the wall, have it shipped for free to the shop with next day delivery. Great for me as it doesnt matter if no one is home to get the package, and the offical shops get their deliveries as a priority [by 10am everyday]
Hmm, my own offers 10% + free shipping (though as a member) to me from anything they sell while another few kilometers away offers 15% off on any GW production + free shipping for anyone wanting to order through their hobby shop. So I alternate between one and another shop depending on how big purchase is. I prefer to support local hobby shops and avoid buying 20% off from online retailers. Online retailers often have old prices which makes them super competitive, but sometimes they are selling stuff for some reason at higher prices. Though with them you can't order too little due to prohibitive shipping costs and you can't order bigger boxes, because of huge shipping costs incurred. I have healthy mix of ordering through hobby shops, retailers and I'm always watching ebay. I have another guy who wants to sell his massive Eldar collection for 1 grand, but that would defeat whole purpose of a hobby in my eyes.
I buy from Uk shops that offer a 15-20% discount (Element games, Wayland games) and with the exchange rates favouring the euro vs how GW does their exchange rates, the total discount in € ends up being something like 30-35%.
I also buy from my local shop because you should buy where you play ,of course.
I have a local shop that has a 10% discount, but it's selection is very poor so the only thing I've bought from there is the latest space marine codex. they seem to have a long time between orders and only ever get in a box or two of anything, i couldn't even get some intercessors from there when i wanted some.
there is another shop somewhat nearby that doesn't do any discount, but does have a private chat group to sell some stuff at a discount and occasionally hat crazy levels just to get rid of excess stock (basically paying what they paid GW for something)
other than that it's online for me. Wayland games and giftsforgeeks are the main two i've used.
FEARtheMoose wrote: Eh, No hobby story offers more than a 10% discount and all in my area only offer a 5%, so even if your spending £100 thats only £5 off, which is basically nothing, so i tend to usually buy my stuff from the local offical warhammer shop since its a 6 minute walk fro me compared to a 10 minture drive to go to a hobby shop with a 5% discount. They also tend to have more stock and more variety in store which is nice, and if they dont have something i can just order it straight away from the touch screen device on the wall, have it shipped for free to the shop with next day delivery. Great for me as it doesnt matter if no one is home to get the package, and the offical shops get their deliveries as a priority [by 10am everyday]
My local store does 15% on everything and 20% on stuff that's up for pre-order. They've also just bumped up their standard GW stock to carry basically everything that isn't web store only.
Even if they are out of stock, as long as you order by Monday, it'll arrive in store for the Thursday (GW stock permitting).
I thought this was standard, but maybe I have just dropped lucky.
In regards to Bandai v GW the quality of the Gundam kits blows GW stuff out of the water on a technical level and then when you add the price that becomes an even worse comparison for GW.
I only recently got my first Gundam kit onba whim after reading a thread on here, there a genuine pleasure to put together, are great value for money and lend themselves well to weathering techniques if you don't like the pristine factory finish. The kits are designed to clip together with out glue so they tend to have a fit and finish that GW can only dream of and a lot are designed with gimmicks like being able to transform or having hidden weapons or other cook stuff.
There top of the line Perfect Grade kits retail from about £117+ but there big kits with normally a large transfer sheet and in some cases lighting kits. I don't have one of these yet but I do plan on getting one. I have never watched an episode of Gundam but I do love some mech action and have no regrets on the kits.
SeanDrake wrote: In regards to Bandai v GW the quality of the Gundam kits blows GW stuff out of the water on a technical level and then when you add the price that becomes an even worse comparison for GW.
I only recently got my first Gundam kit onba whim after reading a thread on here, there a genuine pleasure to put together, are great value for money and lend themselves well to weathering techniques if you don't like the pristine factory finish. The kits are designed to clip together with out glue so they tend to have a fit and finish that GW can only dream of and a lot are designed with gimmicks like being able to transform or having hidden weapons or other cook stuff.
There top of the line Perfect Grade kits retail from about £117+ but there big kits with normally a large transfer sheet and in some cases lighting kits. I don't have one of these yet but I do plan on getting one. I have never watched an episode of Gundam but I do love some mech action and have no regrets on the kits.
A Gundam is about a foot tall. So is a knight. The knight is $150. The Gundam is $220+. I think I know what I'd choose pretty easily.
If it's just about the model, for sure, if you're into Gundams (I'm not, but they are pretty). The Knight is a game piece, while the Gundam is a display piece.
SeanDrake wrote: In regards to Bandai v GW the quality of the Gundam kits blows GW stuff out of the water on a technical level and then when you add the price that becomes an even worse comparison for GW.
I only recently got my first Gundam kit onba whim after reading a thread on here, there a genuine pleasure to put together, are great value for money and lend themselves well to weathering techniques if you don't like the pristine factory finish. The kits are designed to clip together with out glue so they tend to have a fit and finish that GW can only dream of and a lot are designed with gimmicks like being able to transform or having hidden weapons or other cook stuff.
There top of the line Perfect Grade kits retail from about £117+ but there big kits with normally a large transfer sheet and in some cases lighting kits. I don't have one of these yet but I do plan on getting one. I have never watched an episode of Gundam but I do love some mech action and have no regrets on the kits.
A Gundam is about a foot tall. So is a knight. The knight is $150. The Gundam is $220+. I think I know what I'd choose pretty easily.
Knights are nowhere near 12" tall. A bloody Warhound is 12" tall and Knights are smaller than that.
Nurglitch wrote: If it's just about the model, for sure, if you're into Gundams (I'm not, but they are pretty). The Knight is a game piece, while the Gundam is a display piece.
SeanDrake wrote: In regards to Bandai v GW the quality of the Gundam kits blows GW stuff out of the water on a technical level and then when you add the price that becomes an even worse comparison for GW.
I only recently got my first Gundam kit onba whim after reading a thread on here, there a genuine pleasure to put together, are great value for money and lend themselves well to weathering techniques if you don't like the pristine factory finish. The kits are designed to clip together with out glue so they tend to have a fit and finish that GW can only dream of and a lot are designed with gimmicks like being able to transform or having hidden weapons or other cook stuff.
There top of the line Perfect Grade kits retail from about £117+ but there big kits with normally a large transfer sheet and in some cases lighting kits. I don't have one of these yet but I do plan on getting one. I have never watched an episode of Gundam but I do love some mech action and have no regrets on the kits.
A Gundam is about a foot tall. So is a knight. The knight is $150. The Gundam is $220+. I think I know what I'd choose pretty easily.
Spoiler:
Lmao, I'm glad you took the Knight with the most pixel and compared it to the Gundam with the least. This analysis just fails at every single level.
Keep in mind that Gundams are designed to be low poly for animation purposes. They stay low poly once translated to plastic form. I imagine that, by now, Gundams stay low poly because it's easier to make them in plastic, because anime is often just fodder to sell merchandise, but Gundams are plain by design, while GW's stuff is gribbly by design. GW miniatures aren't better for being more gribbly. Gundams spend the effort on articulation.
But it's also true that they are different markets. Gundams are display/modelling projects, while wargaming products are for wargaming (duh) and painting. This puts them in different categories of pricing with different sizes of audience. People on wargaming forums tend to forget how small the wargaming industry is compared to even corner hobbies like Gundam collectors in Japan. I'm sure GW wishes it could shift as many Knight models as Gundam kits. Bandai's factory can produce 24 MILLION kits annually. The Gundam franchise makes 600-700 million dollars annually - it's several times larger than GW, is only a part of Bandai as a total, and Bandai isn't the only player in its market.
GW has no significant competition - it is far and away the biggest wargame producer by probably an order of magnitude, and so it can dictate its price more easily than Bandai can, the anime market is fierce, it's a 19 billion dollar a year industry.
Nah you've been drinking the koolaid if you think some of the new high grade bandai kits are on par with GW offering. They build with articulating joints FFS... Meanwhile my wraithlords shoulder plates don't fit flush/smoothly so it looks like it has a canyon running through it.
Gunpla is certainly ahead advanced in terms of its kit engineering. Its setting doesn't make for skulls on top of skulls to go with the skulls and "floaty bits" to float on is all. Its just a different aesthetic.
I like the simplicity of GW and its product line.. But certainly think companies/system like Mierce have its number when it comes to creative output.
They are both minatures so I guess so? Possibly?
I dunno really. Someone made the comparison so I just sort of went with it.
You could in theory buy expensive centre piece models from GW and never play, and just focus on the modelling/panting from a hobby side. Which would be the same territory as gunpla. However gunpla kits are far more into the modelling/engineering side than asthetics it seems..
But yea I think you could say they are not competing. But both sell model kits.. So maybe its like comparing motorbikes to cars, both run on internal combustion engines I guess.
Argive wrote: Nah you've been drinking the koolaid if you think some of the new high grade bandai kits are on par with GW offering. They build with articulating joints FFS...
Meanwhile my wraithlords shoulder plates don't fit flush/smoothly so it looks like it has a canyon running through it.
Gunpla is certainly ahead advanced in terms of its kit engineering.
Its setting doesn't make for skulls on top of skulls to go with the skulls and "floaty bits" to float on is all.
Its just a different aesthetic.
I like the simplicity of GW and its product line..
But certainly think companies/system like Mierce have its number when it comes to creative output.
But resin though..
never had issues with resin from other producers, except for GW/ FW.
Frankly the quality of FW resin is for the price demand unaceptable and i have seen alot of alternativee sources for FW stuff that had better quality resin then FW
Sure, but they're competing on value as well as price. There's a ton of cheap plastic Russian toys out there that you could use instead of your Space Marines. There's gorgeous Gundam models out there. There's lego, there's pre-primed D&D models, there's boardgames, kits, books, video games, tv, and drugs.
never had issues with resin from other producers, except for GW/ FW.
Frankly the quality of FW resin is for the price demand unaceptable and i have seen alot of alternativee sources for FW stuff that had better quality resin then FW
I agree, FW has no excuses to have this kind of quality for a price they are asking. Though, I do not see anyone trying to prove that Gundam looks better anymore. I admit that they are far more mechanically complex, but aesthetic is simply not appealing and they lack same level of detail which makes w40k miniatures look so distinct.
Recently I had assembled GW kit from 2013 Wrath and Rapture kit and immediately had started working on Grim Imperium set. Former was made in 2013 from markings on sprues while latter was made in 2017. Level of quality between two boxes is noticeable, but it is also prone to same mistakes even if GW seems to make them less often. Miss marked plastic sprues, assembly instruction manual illogically laid out and with plenty of errors, huge mold lines and difficult to cut model out of its sprue without leaving a lot to scrape off. All those issues had plagued GW production, but I can see significant improvement over the years in terms of it and how pretty models are. I sadly can't compare how Gundam, historical or other models compare. They all are competing for same time and money which I'm willing to spend and if I feel that GW is screwing me over like I felt by starting this thread, I will simply go to spend my money elsewhere.
never had issues with resin from other producers, except for GW/ FW.
Frankly the quality of FW resin is for the price demand unaceptable and i have seen alot of alternativee sources for FW stuff that had better quality resin then FW
I agree, FW has no excuses to have this kind of quality for a price they are asking. Though, I do not see anyone trying to prove that Gundam looks better anymore. I admit that they are far more mechanically complex, but aesthetic is simply not appealing and they lack same level of detail which makes w40k miniatures look so distinct.
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I think the Gundam style is great, and they're plenty detailed. Just not over detailed. Don't state your tastes as objective fact.
Jackal90 wrote: I’m sure your local GW reciprocates the same feelings towards you.
My "local" GW is 1560 kilometers away. Which is the bloody point. I'm paying the same for miniatures as Joe in LA who has GW across the street. Yet 70% of the price of this plastic is keeping those useless stores in business. To hell with that gak. I'm not giving them money directly anymore.
As some others have said, GW will charge the price that the market will bear. To the consumer it doesn't really matter why prices are what they are. If you feel that the value is there you will buy it. If you don't think that the value is there you won't buy it. Arguing about it is rather pointless. While I respect the franchise, a Gundam kit has almost no value to me. That does not take away from the tremendous value that somebody else might place on it!
An economist might be able to tell us about the elasticity of GW products. My gut is that they are somewhat inelastic despite being luxury goods, perhaps due to their addictive nature and the lack of bone-fide substitutions once you commit to the game?
