Canon defilement, idiot plots, Gary Stu protagonists, cringeworthy dialogue, try-hard edginess, author fetishes... What are the Black Library novels that should be consigned to the fires of the Inquisition?
Doesn't have to be a recent novel, or to be about 40k specifically. If it's a novel based on GW intellectual property, it fits.
I did not enjoy the HH Dark Angels novels at all - found them dull, lacking interesting characters and completly divorced from the rest of the series plus too much Emo D.Angels - especially when I enjoy the HH Space Wolves much more than the 40k travesties. Gave them away
In a similar vein Furious Abyss is not a good story. Gave it away
The Inquisition Wars by Ian Watson were the first 40k books and I love them to death but many people hate them with great hate.
Sons of Dorn strikes me as a book I read and then tossed in the Goodwill bin.
My old review:
Spoiler:
In the Warhammer 40k universe Space Marines are superhuman warriors fanatically loyal to the Emperor. This makes them great for wargames but hard to write in novels since there's little to tell them apart. Sons of Dorn tries to breath some life into marines by following three initiates as they are grabbed off their primitive world and molded into Space Marines. The result is a strong start but then a very predictable story.
It starts strong introducing 3 mortal enemies from 3 different cultures. The Imperial Fist Space Marine chapter descends upon their world and literally pulls them off the battlefield as potential recruits. In the trials that follow the recruits are whittled down from thousands to just a few dozen. The marines are cruel and unfeeling, unworthy recruits are disposable.
But once our 3 heroes become marine scouts (the lowest rank) things become dull and predictable. There's a desperate battle against hopeless odds where despite foolish tactics the marines prevail. The potentially interesting subplot of their continuing hatred towards one another is referred to but never amounts to anything.
As for the climactic battle, Chris Roberson simply fails to create a compelling scene. After spending most of the book praising the Imperial Fists for their skill at siege warfare he has them make several foolish choices. They send away most of their force and all of their air support. They defend a vital gate with only 3 men armed with short ranged flamers rather than heavy bolters. They miss obvious hints that some of their charges cannot be trusted.
So this book is readable but what should be the climax is very disappointing.
To the point about the Dark Angels books, I would agree that they were not the strongest of the HH series, but I do give them credit for making me appreciate the Dark Angels more. I had previously dismissed them as Nothing But Angst (which, in retrospect, I think comes from them being the popular choice among my friends when we all started playing around 13 years ~ "Space Marines are cool, feelings are confusing!"). The novels made me appreciate the conflicting layers of loyalty to the Chapter, to the Imperium, to the Inner Circle, etc. - but I was frustrated that the lore was presented in such an (in my opinion) unsatisfying series of books. I think the first one is probably the weakest of the series.
I enjoyed Dark Imperium, and found it to be basically well-written, but it felt more than any other 40k book I've read like sponsored content. It showcased the different Primaris units available for purchase and the specialties of each in a way that felt very forced. Also was not happy with the anti-Chaos slandering - promises of "false-immortality" are hardly false when they are in fact, immortal, no? And some people find tentacles to be very becoming, by the way. I don't think I'm in the minority in saying that I am interested in how the plot for 40k has progressed (especially given that it happened while I was taking my 7-year hobby sabbatical), but am not entirely satisfied with how that plot progression has been depicted in the literature so far.
I'm trying hard to think of any books that I did not enjoy - I still got something out of the three books above. I remember thinking that Battle for the Abyss was pretty good, but I felt kind of gotten that it ended up being completely unconnected to any other story happening during the Horus Heresy.
It took me a long time to get into the Outcast Dead - up until I was three-quarters of the way through I was pretty certain I wasn't going to finish it - but it is absolutely one of my favorites now. I think it was a risky choice to focus the action so far away from the the frontline of the Heresy and it really paid off.
I liked the first Soul Drinkers book, but I never finished the Omnibus.
iGuy91 wrote: The Salamander's Omnibus by Nick Kyme is a travesty against the lore.
Details please!
One of the Salamanders librarians basically goes super-saiyan and solos a lord of change running amok through the whole blasted chapter. Including all kinds of nonsensical feats of psychic nonsense.
I particularly liked the bit in Dark Creed where the maguffin just doesn't work according to its previously established rules of operation when the protagonists want to have a big climactic fight.
Also how the spelling of the tower in Dark Apostle changes from one page to the next. Didn't feel like adding it to the spell check dictionary I guess...
Honestly, pretty much the entire HH series is horrible.
Particular low points for me are the way the Space Wolves are portrayed, changing Ollanius Pious from a simple guardsman to an immortal something-or-other -seriously, that was the whole point of the character- and the Alpha Legion book, which just makes no sense whatsoever.
You'll see a lot of people going 'eurgh, I didn't like X because it didn't fit with my view of Y' (be it the Inquisition War, Horus Heresy, or whatever); but that's usually a matter of personal taste. You have to look at it more on the basis of the individual authors and their collective work.
Speaking from a lore perspective, Goto is generally considered the worst. He read nothing about the background, and just went to town with gross exaggerations and poor writing for a paycheck.
Stylistically speaking, Nick Kyme is one of the worse authors. His work has shown gradual improvement over the years (I've read them all), but he just struggles ona technical level to write a good character or an interesting plot. It isn't for lack of a desire to 'be' a good author as it were, and you can very much see the metaphorical sweat on his writer's brow. But his work is just rather bland and sub-par. He also apparently doesn't tend to have his own stuff edited (I've no idea if that's true or not), but would explain a lot.
Gav Thorpe probably gets the most unjustified hatred. His writing can vary from 'plot riddled and bland' to 'Pretty decent'. And that inconsistency earns him a lot of ire. But the guy really churns out so much stuff and had such a sketchy background in terms of actual training as a writer that it's not surprising. He's the very definition of a self-made man in a literary sense, and whilst he'll never be Abnett? I can still enjoy most of his stuff.
Interesting to see what people don't like. On some of those mentioned:
I've only read the first book in the Salamanders trilogy, and other than the 10k year old space marine, I thought that was pretty good. It sounds like it's later books where it descends though.
Again with Bastion Wars, I've only read Blood Gorgons, which while it wasn't great, I didn't think it was terrible.
I'm on book 6 of the HH. I'm actually doing them on audiobook so far as I got a bunch in various bundles. I found False Gods pretty tough, although necessary. I'm currently 6 chapters into Descent of Angels, and it's absolutely dire. I couldn't care less about the characters and I'm seriously considering abandoning it.
Onto my personal gaklist:
Malodrax by Ben Counter - Ben Counter is an author who I thought I hated all works by, then I listened to Galaxy in Flames and realised it's only when he gets into details within the warp it all goes to gak. This is the story of Imperial Fists Captain Lysander, and it's one of the worst books I've ever read (not just Black Library books, all books)! I struggle to follow some of the things the author is talking about when inside the warp. I feel like it makes sense in his head, but when he pens it, he gets carried away and the descriptions go to gak. Aside from all of the 'in the warp' shenanigans, the story is just stone cold boring.
The House of Night and Chains by David Annandale - This is one that started well, but just dragged on and was utterly predictable. The last third of the book was just an utter slog. The story barely leaves the house in the setting, and while it's big, it's not described well, and most of the 'spooky' things that happen have little consequence other than the main character devolving further into madness.
There's more as well, I'll edit as I think of them.
Re. the HH series, I think Rick Priestley best articulated why a lot of it is so bad:
"The trouble with the Heresy as envisaged by GW is it just feels like 40K - it doesn't have the feel of a genuinely different society that ten thousand years separation would give you. Whenever I wrote anything that referenced back to those times I always wrote in a legendary, non-literal style. It's as if you were dealing with something like the Iliad rather than literal history - and there you're only talking three thousand years - ten thousand years - that takes us back to the end of the last ice-age... and I don't get any sense of understanding about 'deep time' when I look at anything GW have set in the 40K 'past'."
Even the best HH books feel like they're set a few centuries at most prior to the 40K 'present', not in an unfathomably distant past. And authors being too keen on filling in all the interesting gaps has led to things like the Emperor looking like a moron with a stupid plan that could never have worked; and the Primarchs feeling like ridiculous man-babies (and being literal physical giants rather than that being a result of ten millennia of ignorance and myth-making).
I like the horus heresy novels in general. I tend to orient myself the other way round though, seeing the heresy as the anchor and 40k as being off kilter, even though i got into 40k as a kid, being introduced to the heresy as an adult, I just found the setting much cooler, and the models better.
I'm halfway through Titandeath right now. Its been ok so far, but I find the relentless 'machine spirit' guff very tiring. the novel strays very close to political issues too which I find strange for black library, with the story touching on issues like feminism and abortion. I'm not trying to get into those here, It just took me by surprise a little bit.
phillv85 wrote: Again with Bastion Wars, I've only read Blood Gorgons, which while it wasn't great, I didn't think it was terrible.
It's been a while since I read them, but from memory they played fast & loose with existing fluff (Guard power fists are a glove with a battery pack in it, self-severing Sisters of Battle) and the whole "the Imperium is evil and Chaos are the good guys" plot was badly done.
Duskweaver wrote: Re. the HH series, I think Rick Priestley best articulated why a lot of it is so bad:
"The trouble with the Heresy as envisaged by GW is it just feels like 40K - it doesn't have the feel of a genuinely different society that ten thousand years separation would give you. Whenever I wrote anything that referenced back to those times I always wrote in a legendary, non-literal style. It's as if you were dealing with something like the Iliad rather than literal history - and there you're only talking three thousand years - ten thousand years - that takes us back to the end of the last ice-age... and I don't get any sense of understanding about 'deep time' when I look at anything GW have set in the 40K 'past'."
Even the best HH books feel like they're set a few centuries at most prior to the 40K 'present', not in an unfathomably distant past. And authors being too keen on filling in all the interesting gaps has led to things like the Emperor looking like a moron with a stupid plan that could never have worked; and the Primarchs feeling like ridiculous man-babies (and being literal physical giants rather than that being a result of ten millennia of ignorance and myth-making).
I take back my previous comment. Priestley is correct. The HH books should not exist.
They should have never been written. But apparently one of the godfather’s of GW is wrong too.
I think Flesh and Iron, A Thousand Sons, and Fist Heretic are the worst BL books I’ve read. Even Farseer was better, even Deady Sky Black Sun, even soul drinkers book II. And those are pretty neutral books.
pelicaniforce wrote: I think Flesh and Iron, A Thousand Sons, and Fist Heretic are the worst BL books I’ve read. Even Farseer was better, even Deady Sky Black Sun, even soul drinkers book II. And those are pretty neutral books.
Interesting, I've not read The First Heretic yet, but I've heard lots of good things about it. What was it you didn't like?
I don't think I've ever heard someone say they don't like Thousand Sons either.
I'm seconding the Salamanders novels being bad. A Librarian soloing a Chaos Fleet and also being an ancient weapon is most of what I remember. Hopefully I'm misrembering...
first heretic was decent. offered a lot of depth to the word bearers and how they became the way they are. it shows their conflicted nature. I guess its a matter of opinion though, if youre more interested in big fights and action scenes its probably not for you.
on that note though, one novel that didnt have enough action in it was tallarn. I had high hopes for it, a meagre force of humans putting paid to the iron warriors with tank warfare. it started off pretty well, but then it seemed to get mired down in unnecessary intricacies and sneaky alpha legion assassin stuff, and lost focus on the tank warfare that it seemed to promise.
I absolutely loved First Heretic. Aaron Dembski-Bowden is so good at what I'll call transhumanizing - not quite humanizing these post/transhuman super warriors, but exploring how they experience the conflicts between their stillborn emotions and sense of self, and the rigorous training and demands of eternal war that are expected of them. I think that is well on display in the First Heretic, and exceptionally so in the Night Lords series.
That said, I think he's not super strong at large combat scenes - that was one of my problems with Betrayer, where the second half of the book is basically one long combat. For that I'll just read Gaunt's Ghosts.
I really enjoyed A Thousand Sons, because again we get a sense of what the needs and desires of these fundamentally emotionally-stunted warriors are, and what kind of society they could build if given the chance, and explore how they conflict with what the Emperor's vision for the Astartes actually is. I did think they spent way too long on the first planet - but that sets up a lot of lore and character stuff that comes back to play later. I thought the Council of Nikea was really well done. It justified by distaste for Space Wolves. I do wish they had more clearly established why the Space Wolves (and the Emperor, no less) don't consider Rune Priests to by psykers. That's one thing I wanted from Prospero Burns, which ended up being another civilian-driven book (and a really interesting one, at that).
It's kind of why I like the Green Arrow - a lot of bad writing decisions accidentally produced a really interesting, flawed character. I think the inconsistencies between books helps produce a tapestry of flawed posthumans trying to be human and transhuman at the same time. That said, when there are straight up contradictions or radical lore changes (the Rune Priest thing, Ollanius Pius, etc.) I do get frustrated.
I think Priestly's on point, there. The first three Horus Heresy novels feel really consistent, and the world they create is quite distinct from 40k. Same with all of the books that focus mostly on civilians (Legion, Prospero Burns, Outcast Dead). But as the series goes on, I agree that it feels more and more like 40k. The way that people casually mention Machine Spirits as if they all believed in them despite the age of rationality and skepticism.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: first heretic was decent. offered a lot of depth to the word bearers and how they became the way they are. it shows their conflicted nature. I guess its a matter of opinion though, if youre more interested in big fights and action scenes its probably not for you.
on that note though, one novel that didnt have enough action in it was tallarn. I had high hopes for it, a meagre force of humans putting paid to the iron warriors with tank warfare. it started off pretty well, but then it seemed to get mired down in unnecessary intricacies and sneaky alpha legion assassin stuff, and lost focus on the tank warfare that it seemed to promise.
Yep. Takes down a whole bloody fleet, as well as a Lord of Change by himself. It was absolutely, eye-rollingly Deus-Ex Machina.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I could be wrong but I think GW put out a detailed explanation of why they did the HH books which I think answers Rick Priestly's objections.
Spoiler:
We like money. Fanboys will pay us money for Horus Heresy Books. Therefore we will make them.
PS We're bringing back the Primachs too.
Spoiler:
I knew the joke was coming. I even knew what it was. And I still laughed, you have such a great way of wording things to make them funny.
To me, the first time I noticed the "30k = 40k" feels, and I remember being quite annoyed by it, was with "Fulgrim".
You had alien civilizations with ancient temples dedicated to Slaanesh, when the dude had basically been born like yesterday in galactic time.
An Eldar army that looked like it directly came over from a M40 battlefield, with Wraithguards and an Avatar, when the Eldar too should still have been in the process of getting their act together directly after the Fall.
And finally, Emperor's Children directly turning into Noise Marines complete with sonic weaponry upon their corruption. Here too, you'd think this would have been a longer process.
I think I’ve been the most disappointed with the whole horror line. There have been some decent stories in the anthologies, but mostly everything has been super predictable and not at all scary. Having said that, I keep reading them.
It's a book that tells you that baneblades and shadowswords are great. The Characters are boring, the Story is boring, the ending is boring. Nothing really happens throughout the book except that the main Character gets promoted from shooting up stuff in a baneblade to shooting bigger stuff up in a shadowsword. The Story is incredibly bland. Never before has a book felt so much like a model Advertisement like this one did.
It's a book that tells you that baneblades and shadowswords are great. The Characters are boring, the Story is boring, the ending is boring. Nothing really happens throughout the book except that the main Character gets promoted from shooting up stuff in a baneblade to shooting bigger stuff up in a shadowsword. The Story is incredibly bland. Never before has a book felt so much like a model Advertisement like this one did.
I liked it a lot better than his Konrad Curze novel.
Esmer wrote: To me, the first time I noticed the "30k = 40k" feels, and I remember being quite annoyed by it, was with "Fulgrim".
You had alien civilizations with ancient temples dedicated to Slaanesh, when the dude had basically been born like yesterday in galactic time.
An Eldar army that looked like it directly came over from a M40 battlefield, with Wraithguards and an Avatar, when the Eldar too should still have been in the process of getting their act together directly after the Fall.
And finally, Emperor's Children directly turning into Noise Marines complete with sonic weaponry upon their corruption. Here too, you'd think this would have been a longer process.
Mmm, that eldar thing isn't so backwards as you might imagine. Old lore has the fall of the Eldar literally millions of years ago, with what's left of their culture pretty much stagnant since then. That particular retcon doesn't quite gall me as much as the SW re-imagining or the change to what the Edict of Nikaea actually said though - those are far more fundamental.
Plus, of course, I agree with earlier mentioned comments that the HH should never have been delved into in detail - it's supposed to be a time of mystery, a legendary past that no one knows exactly what happened and only bits and pieces of facts survive from then.
I always wanted to read about Dark Angels fighting Tau. All of a sudden War of Secrets was announce and holy crap was I hyped... till I noticed who the author was.
That book wasnt bad actually, until near the end where the non-canon Firewarrior's protagonist goes on a rampage inside an SM fortress monestary. That was just pathetic.
It's a book that tells you that baneblades and shadowswords are great. The Characters are boring, the Story is boring, the ending is boring. Nothing really happens throughout the book except that the main Character gets promoted from shooting up stuff in a baneblade to shooting bigger stuff up in a shadowsword. The Story is incredibly bland. Never before has a book felt so much like a model Advertisement like this one did.
I liked it a lot better than his Konrad Curze novel.
That is hilarious because I thought Baneblade was super boring too. Havemt read Shadowsword, but man, I couldnt bother paying attention so I had no idea what was happening throughout the whole novel until the last action scene, which I thought was pretty good.
Funny enough, Pandorax had a better portrayal of the Baneblade family (A Hellhammer in this case) than Baneblade did.
I never really saw the problem with the multilasers. Sure, they are not a current Codex option. However, it is hardly beyond imagining that a SM chapter could field some man-portable multilasers, they wouldn't be much different to marines carrying lascannons.
I think one of the worst I have read was Flesh and Iron. I actually rather liked the book. It made me love the idea of a single flyer supporting a mobile army, which is something I have emulated with my Vulture gunship. It also shows ideas of wet naval units in 40k, something that is rarely seen. However, there is the whole plagarism thing, which is a rather serious negative point when it comes to fiction.
1.0 out of 5 stars
Profoundly disappointing, August 23, 2009
By Kid Kyoto (Beijing) - See all my reviews
In Games Workshop's Warhammer 40k universe the Adeptus Mechanicus is a mysterious organization of tech priests who worship knowledge and consider technology the divine creations of the Machine God. Mechanicum is supposed to give the history of this organization and reveal its secrets.
It's not worth reading.
The book has two main plots, the first is a young Adept named Dalia's quest for the Dragon of Mars, the second is the brewing civil war among the various forge cities and warrior orders of Mars.
The first two hundred pages of this book are spent trying to bore the reader to death as mysterious tech priest and mighty Titan pilots argue the finer points of Machine God theology and parliamentary procedure. Meanwhile Dalia quickly becomes an irritating Mary Sue character with ill-defined magical powers and a great destiny. Somewhere around page 200 forbidden vaults are opened, the forces of Chaos are unleashed and the action picks up. For a couple of pages. Then we're back to hearing about Dalia's romantic crushes, the proper way to wire a psychic chair and the difficulties of securing a wireless network from demonic computer viruses. It's not until page 300 or so that Dalia gets around to starting her quest, an epic struggle that involves not only a long boring train ride, but also a long boring car ride. There's also a giant robot attack but Dalia's magic powers deal with that before anyone can get too interested.
The civil war, when it finally does come is a confusing mess of Latin names and obscure references to long out of print GW games. If you don't know the difference between a Reaver Titan and a Warlord don't even bother trying to follow it.
Some of GW's writers like Ian Watson, Dan Abnett and Kim (Jack Yeovil) Newman have tremendous skills in using the English language to make the mundane seem mysterious, McNeill does the opposite. His references to maglev trains, wireless networks and fiber optics makes the ancient tech priests of Mars seem about as exciting as my cable company.
Even for fans of the Horus Heresy series there just isn't much here. Mars falls to chaos is about all you need to know if you're following the larger story.
It may be because I'm an old time gamer but a prefer the old pre-Black Library era books of Drachenfels and Inquisitor and the like, when it was a bit more 'expanded universe' rather than cast-iron canon.
Out of the HH series I've only read Betrayer which only confirmed my feeling that the series should be avoided at all costs. YMMV or course.
MarkNorfolk wrote: It may be because I'm an old time gamer but a prefer the old pre-Black Library era books of Drachenfels and Inquisitor and the like, when it was a bit more 'expanded universe' rather than cast-iron canon.
Out of the HH series I've only read Betrayer which only confirmed my feeling that the series should be avoided at all costs. YMMV or course.
Drakenfels is one the best damn fantasy novels I've read. I reread it every few years and have like 3 versions of it. Kim "Jack Yeovil" Newman is awesome even his Dark Future books are worth rereading.
His long-running Anno Dracula series is tons of fun too.
MarkNorfolk wrote: ...when it was a bit more 'expanded universe' rather than cast-iron canon.
I would argue that there is no such thing. For all we know, the Horus Heresy novels are just the 40k equivalent of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, offering a highly dramatic version of real events. One reason I like 40k so much is because of how loose the concept of canon is.
Oh sure. GW can 'do a Disney' and say the HH (or any novel) is just 'legends' at any time. But they seem to have the feel of officaldom and the HH fans treat it as 'The Truth'. It seems to me, anyway.
My point is that the concept of "officialdom" is way less than for other IPs. Sure, HH may be "the Truth" but because of the way 40k is writtem, there is a valid viewpoint that it is not. It is something that is not seen much in other canons, the ability to choose your own interpretation of events.
Of course there are limits, some things would be harder to justify.
MarkNorfolk wrote: Oh sure. GW can 'do a Disney' and say the HH (or any novel) is just 'legends' at any time. But they seem to have the feel of officaldom and the HH fans treat it as 'The Truth'. It seems to me, anyway.
So what you're saying is...
Horus Heresy Book 65-Horus Falling
Page 493
"The Emperor is not dead, he lives on in the Golden Throne! He is no longer a man, he has become a god! Long live the Emperor!" Rogal Dorn ejaculated loudly.
"Long live the Emperor!" The assembled Legions replied.
Epiloge
T...H...E... E...N...D...
And with those words Scribe-Historian Danyel D'Abelnet laid down his quill and massaged his aching fingers. These fictional, romanticized tales of the Horus Heresy has been an interesting diversion for him and his coherts in the Scriptum. It was a shame no one else would read them, no one else could even know they existed. To put words in the mouths of the sacred primarchs? The Emperor himself? And to even speak of the Fallen Ones? That was three death sentences right there. Alas.
Still it had been fun. He couldn't wait to show the final manuscript to his fellow Scribe Benjamin The Counter. Danyel truly believed it was his best work yet.
Suddenly, the doorway exploded inwards in a flash of light. D'Abelnet barely had time to turn before he felt the cold touch of a bolt pistol against his temple. Though his ears were ringing, he could still make out the intruder's words.
"I am Inquisitor Maledrex of the Ordo Scriptum. You have been found guilty of Historo-Heresy. The sentence is death. Eventually."
Skitarius by Rob Sanders. This book was the highlight of the GW releasing a book to sell models phase. Skitarii just came out and so there needed to be a book to highlight how Skitarii worked in combat.
We got a small amount of cool characters. But it felt like an extended version of a Codex Supplement. Not an actual novel.
I like the idea of adding character to the new models that get released but the novel did nothing for Skitarii. The one saving grace is a Ruststalker who follows the letter, but not the spirit of his orders. So being told to secure a drop site was interpreted by him as slaughter all non-combatants within a kilometer of the drop site.
The book should have been a highlight of how different Skitarii characters interact with one another. But ended up being corridors of bolter porn as a Skitarii unit showed up to kill something and then disappear so we could get more Chaos Dark Mechanicum story.
Esmer wrote: To me, the first time I noticed the "30k = 40k" feels, and I remember being quite annoyed by it, was with "Fulgrim".
You had alien civilizations with ancient temples dedicated to Slaanesh, when the dude had basically been born like yesterday in galactic time.
An Eldar army that looked like it directly came over from a M40 battlefield, with Wraithguards and an Avatar, when the Eldar too should still have been in the process of getting their act together directly after the Fall.
And finally, Emperor's Children directly turning into Noise Marines complete with sonic weaponry upon their corruption. Here too, you'd think this would have been a longer process.
Mmm, that eldar thing isn't so backwards as you might imagine. Old lore has the fall of the Eldar literally millions of years ago, with what's left of their culture pretty much stagnant since then.
Pretty sure the Fall of the Eldar and the birth of Slaanesh have been described as taking place around M30 since at least Slaves to Darkness/Lost and Damned.
123ply wrote: Anything by Phil Kelly that touches the Tau.
I always wanted to read about Dark Angels fighting Tau. All of a sudden War of Secrets was announce and holy crap was I hyped... till I noticed who the author was.
That book wasnt bad actually, until near the end where the non-canon Firewarrior's protagonist goes on a rampage inside an SM fortress monestary. That was just pathetic.
It's a book that tells you that baneblades and shadowswords are great. The Characters are boring, the Story is boring, the ending is boring. Nothing really happens throughout the book except that the main Character gets promoted from shooting up stuff in a baneblade to shooting bigger stuff up in a shadowsword. The Story is incredibly bland. Never before has a book felt so much like a model Advertisement like this one did.
I liked it a lot better than his Konrad Curze novel.
That is hilarious because I thought Baneblade was super boring too. Havemt read Shadowsword, but man, I couldnt bother paying attention so I had no idea what was happening throughout the whole novel until the last action scene, which I thought was pretty good.
Funny enough, Pandorax had a better portrayal of the Baneblade family (A Hellhammer in this case) than Baneblade did.
I felt similarly about the Dark Angel side. It wasn't bad until the end where it was just bone headed and I had to put the book down to try and understand how or why that was permitted.
Duskweaver wrote: Re. the HH series, I think Rick Priestley best articulated why a lot of it is so bad:
"The trouble with the Heresy as envisaged by GW is it just feels like 40K - it doesn't have the feel of a genuinely different society that ten thousand years separation would give you. Whenever I wrote anything that referenced back to those times I always wrote in a legendary, non-literal style. It's as if you were dealing with something like the Iliad rather than literal history - and there you're only talking three thousand years - ten thousand years - that takes us back to the end of the last ice-age... and I don't get any sense of understanding about 'deep time' when I look at anything GW have set in the 40K 'past'."
Even the best HH books feel like they're set a few centuries at most prior to the 40K 'present', not in an unfathomably distant past. And authors being too keen on filling in all the interesting gaps has led to things like the Emperor looking like a moron with a stupid plan that could never have worked; and the Primarchs feeling like ridiculous man-babies (and being literal physical giants rather than that being a result of ten millennia of ignorance and myth-making).
I agree with much of what you say/quote. But I actually think the first alpha legion book ticks the “deep time” box pretty well. The description of the imperial guard regiments and the fact that people aren’t in awe of the SMs paints a much different picture.
The Inquisition Wars by Ian Watson were the first 40k books and I love them to death but many people hate them with great hate.
Sons of Dorn strikes me as a book I read and then tossed in the Goodwill bin.
My old review:
Spoiler:
In the Warhammer 40k universe Space Marines are superhuman warriors fanatically loyal to the Emperor. This makes them great for wargames but hard to write in novels since there's little to tell them apart. Sons of Dorn tries to breath some life into marines by following three initiates as they are grabbed off their primitive world and molded into Space Marines. The result is a strong start but then a very predictable story.
It starts strong introducing 3 mortal enemies from 3 different cultures. The Imperial Fist Space Marine chapter descends upon their world and literally pulls them off the battlefield as potential recruits. In the trials that follow the recruits are whittled down from thousands to just a few dozen. The marines are cruel and unfeeling, unworthy recruits are disposable.
But once our 3 heroes become marine scouts (the lowest rank) things become dull and predictable. There's a desperate battle against hopeless odds where despite foolish tactics the marines prevail. The potentially interesting subplot of their continuing hatred towards one another is referred to but never amounts to anything.
As for the climactic battle, Chris Roberson simply fails to create a compelling scene. After spending most of the book praising the Imperial Fists for their skill at siege warfare he has them make several foolish choices. They send away most of their force and all of their air support. They defend a vital gate with only 3 men armed with short ranged flamers rather than heavy bolters. They miss obvious hints that some of their charges cannot be trusted.
So this book is readable but what should be the climax is very disappointing.
Wait, is Sons of Dorn a rewrite of Ian Watsons Space Marine but with the third act changed?
The Inquisition Wars by Ian Watson were the first 40k books and I love them to death but many people hate them with great hate.
Sons of Dorn strikes me as a book I read and then tossed in the Goodwill bin.
My old review:
Spoiler:
In the Warhammer 40k universe Space Marines are superhuman warriors fanatically loyal to the Emperor. This makes them great for wargames but hard to write in novels since there's little to tell them apart. Sons of Dorn tries to breath some life into marines by following three initiates as they are grabbed off their primitive world and molded into Space Marines. The result is a strong start but then a very predictable story.
It starts strong introducing 3 mortal enemies from 3 different cultures. The Imperial Fist Space Marine chapter descends upon their world and literally pulls them off the battlefield as potential recruits. In the trials that follow the recruits are whittled down from thousands to just a few dozen. The marines are cruel and unfeeling, unworthy recruits are disposable.
But once our 3 heroes become marine scouts (the lowest rank) things become dull and predictable. There's a desperate battle against hopeless odds where despite foolish tactics the marines prevail. The potentially interesting subplot of their continuing hatred towards one another is referred to but never amounts to anything.
As for the climactic battle, Chris Roberson simply fails to create a compelling scene. After spending most of the book praising the Imperial Fists for their skill at siege warfare he has them make several foolish choices. They send away most of their force and all of their air support. They defend a vital gate with only 3 men armed with short ranged flamers rather than heavy bolters. They miss obvious hints that some of their charges cannot be trusted.
So this book is readable but what should be the climax is very disappointing.
Wait, is Sons of Dorn a rewrite of Ian Watsons Space Marine but with the third act changed?
What? No. No, no, no.
Well but yes.
Except take everything good from Watson and now make it really suck.
Watsons draco was a tough read, but I think that's because I was reading it through modern eyes, and the book comes from a time where, to quote 1d4chan, 'No one had a f-g clue what they where doing, so we get Squats, Zoats and lasgun-wielding Space Marines. We also get Space Marines out-farting each other with their specially engineered a-holes.'
I just remember it seeming to me like he was trying to shoehorn every faction in there somehow. And the bit on the Chaos planet with the sentient moon was just weird.
OK so in Rogue Trader there was like a 2 page sample adventure set on Rynn's World pitting the Crimson Fists against the Orks called the Battle of the Farm.
As we entered the age where GW strip mines their past someone got the idea of blowing the 2 pages of background into a 500 page book.
It does not go well...
Spoiler:
When Warhammer 40k debuted in 1987 it came with a simple scenario for the first battle. Battle at the Farm was a 4 page set up pitting Space Marine commander Pedro Cantor against a group of ferocious Ork warriors.
Now, almost 25 years later Steve Parker turns it into a 530 page novel. When I saw it I figured it would be neat to see how the very first 40k battle scaled up to a full novel.
It doesn't.
Parker keeps the basic scenario (Ork invasion, Marine fortress destroyed) but brings nothing original or interesting to the delivery. The plot unfolds like he's checking off a list. Things get bad, then worse, then horrible, then there's hope, a desperate plan, and finally the main hero and villain have to settle things with a fist fight.
Unlike Ian Watson or Dan Abnett's books Parker does not make use of Warhammer's trademark archaic vocabulary, everything is mundane and dulled down, almost as if this were Warhammer for Young Readers. The editing is sloppy, at one point flogging is called 'capital punishment' rather than 'corporal punishment', a simple error that should never have seen print. Parker also does not do enough to differentiate his main characters. Granted Space Marines are mostly one-dimensional killing machines but the only differences Parker is able to give them is one is slightly more aggressive than another. The descriptions of the battles are cliched and unimaginative, the battles themselves lack any clever twists, and the secondary characters never manage to come into their own.
There is some potential early on, we have a female governor with a schoolgirl crush on Pedro Cantor, we have a group of refugees where the marines must rescue, forcing them to choose between protecting the weak and fulfilling their mission. But neither of these subplots go anywhere.
The finale makes no sense. The Marines must retake the spaceport so that Imperial reinforcements can arrive. But it was already established that Space Marines (including the ones reinforcing them) have dropships and drop pods, they don't need a spaceport and could easily take it themselves if they need it for larger ships. When they retake the port the Marines find the communications, landing pads and even the weapons intact, but it was already established the orks loot and destroy anything they can get their hands on. The final battle literally comes out of the bright blue sky and accomplishes nothing.
It's a handsome book with an over-sized trim and some color plates in the center but the color maps are wasted. They show areas of the planet where nothing in the book happens and don't even detail New Rynn City where most of the action takes place. They would have been better used for more detailed battle maps or maybe arms and equipment guides.
Avoid this book, if you're looking for good 40k action look for Dan Abnett's Guant's Ghosts books.
Almost certainly not the worst, but I used to think that ADB could do no wrong...and then I read The Talon of Horus. If Iskander Khayon had been some thirteen year old's fan fic, it would have been understandable. But from ADB?....shocking
The “—— of Mars” series might be my least favorite. I’ve read other stuff by Graham McNeill that was good, this wasn’t it. The story wasn’t bad per se, but the whole thing felt really sloppy. Like it was describing one character talking about his shaved head, and then two sentences later it’s talking about his hair. Or the one black Templar who gets his hand cut off, but five pages later he’s got his hand again.
Plus as a really nerdy point: there was a scene where a bunch of characters are standing around basking in the “glittering nitrogen rain”. The boiling point of nitrogen is -320 degrees F.
The Inquisition Wars by Ian Watson were the first 40k books and I love them to death but many people hate them with great hate.
Sons of Dorn strikes me as a book I read and then tossed in the Goodwill bin.
My old review:
Spoiler:
In the Warhammer 40k universe Space Marines are superhuman warriors fanatically loyal to the Emperor. This makes them great for wargames but hard to write in novels since there's little to tell them apart. Sons of Dorn tries to breath some life into marines by following three initiates as they are grabbed off their primitive world and molded into Space Marines. The result is a strong start but then a very predictable story.
It starts strong introducing 3 mortal enemies from 3 different cultures. The Imperial Fist Space Marine chapter descends upon their world and literally pulls them off the battlefield as potential recruits. In the trials that follow the recruits are whittled down from thousands to just a few dozen. The marines are cruel and unfeeling, unworthy recruits are disposable.
But once our 3 heroes become marine scouts (the lowest rank) things become dull and predictable. There's a desperate battle against hopeless odds where despite foolish tactics the marines prevail. The potentially interesting subplot of their continuing hatred towards one another is referred to but never amounts to anything.
As for the climactic battle, Chris Roberson simply fails to create a compelling scene. After spending most of the book praising the Imperial Fists for their skill at siege warfare he has them make several foolish choices. They send away most of their force and all of their air support. They defend a vital gate with only 3 men armed with short ranged flamers rather than heavy bolters. They miss obvious hints that some of their charges cannot be trusted.
So this book is readable but what should be the climax is very disappointing.
Wait, is Sons of Dorn a rewrite of Ian Watsons Space Marine but with the third act changed?
What? No. No, no, no.
Well but yes.
Except take everything good from Watson and now make it really suck.
But. . . Why?
I blame BL for a number of wrong turns in 40k, giant primarchs, even more focus on marines, etc.
Warzone Fenris.
Dark Angels - Punishment before penance.
Bombards Fenris.
Wrath of Magnus.
Dark Angels - Oh sorry - it wasn’t Fenris, just a mining operation on some random other planet in the Fenris system and totally the Changeling’s fault.
Ragnar - No problem, brofist for old time’s sake and do you want some help chasing the Changeling into the Rock?
Grey Knight Captain Stern - Sounds like a blast, I’m keen.
Dark Angels - Ummm...
It's a book that tells you that baneblades and shadowswords are great. The Characters are boring, the Story is boring, the ending is boring. Nothing really happens throughout the book except that the main Character gets promoted from shooting up stuff in a baneblade to shooting bigger stuff up in a shadowsword. The Story is incredibly bland. Never before has a book felt so much like a model Advertisement like this one did.
I'd say all the short stories that are blatantly written to sell a new model are awful. I stumbled across the one for the tau riptide in an anthology a while back, and found it particularly bad. I think it was 'The Patient Hunter', by Joe Parrino.
It's only a few pages long, and is just about a bland riptide pilot musing obnoxiously to himself as he blows up around 60 leman russ tanks, followed by a baneblade (That's not an exaggeration. At one point it says 48 tanks were left, after a good number had already been destroyed).
Crackedgear wrote: The “—— of Mars” series might be my least favorite. I’ve read other stuff by Graham McNeill that was good, this wasn’t it. The story wasn’t bad per se, but the whole thing felt really sloppy. Like it was describing one character talking about his shaved head, and then two sentences later it’s talking about his hair. Or the one black Templar who gets his hand cut off, but five pages later he’s got his hand again.
Plus as a really nerdy point: there was a scene where a bunch of characters are standing around basking in the “glittering nitrogen rain”. The boiling point of nitrogen is -320 degrees F.
Or 300 pages of "Then the Marines smashed the green glass robot, then the marines smashed the other green glass robot, then the green glass robots fused into another green glass robots and the marines smashed that..."
I REALLY wanted to like the Of Mars books. I really did...
Crackedgear wrote: The “—— of Mars” series might be my least favorite. I’ve read other stuff by Graham McNeill that was good, this wasn’t it. The story wasn’t bad per se, but the whole thing felt really sloppy. Like it was describing one character talking about his shaved head, and then two sentences later it’s talking about his hair. Or the one black Templar who gets his hand cut off, but five pages later he’s got his hand again.
Plus as a really nerdy point: there was a scene where a bunch of characters are standing around basking in the “glittering nitrogen rain”. The boiling point of nitrogen is -320 degrees F.
Or 300 pages of "Then the Marines smashed the green glass robot, then the marines smashed the other green glass robot, then the green glass robots fused into another green glass robots and the marines smashed that..."
I REALLY wanted to like the Of Mars books. I really did...
Thanks, I had forgotten about the stupid glass robot monsters.
Crackedgear wrote: The “—— of Mars” series might be my least favorite. I’ve read other stuff by Graham McNeill that was good, this wasn’t it. The story wasn’t bad per se, but the whole thing felt really sloppy. Like it was describing one character talking about his shaved head, and then two sentences later it’s talking about his hair. Or the one black Templar who gets his hand cut off, but five pages later he’s got his hand again.
Plus as a really nerdy point: there was a scene where a bunch of characters are standing around basking in the “glittering nitrogen rain”. The boiling point of nitrogen is -320 degrees F.
Or 300 pages of "Then the Marines smashed the green glass robot, then the marines smashed the other green glass robot, then the green glass robots fused into another green glass robots and the marines smashed that..."
I REALLY wanted to like the Of Mars books. I really did...
Or how everybody in the third book is suddenly either related to a major character, or is connected to
Background events from other sources - the Cadian officer who is Creed's neice, the techpriest who studied under Corteswain, two characters talk about events on Caris Cephalon, the training deck city is a copy of Vogen, villain guy stole tech from Cthelmax, etc - do you get the reference?! The lore is so deep and connected!
And of course I can never forgive what McNeill did to the Cardinal Boras in book one...
I'm just going to say it: the ending of Xenos is rubbish, and I don't like the Eisenhorn books.
'I called on the largest gathering of Deathwatch ever described to this point and we launched a planetary assault to destroy the knock-off pylon; but we're short on page count here so I won't give any detail about any of that. I had a duel with the baddie. The end'.
I hated Fist of the Imperium. The Space Marines were terrible at the one thing they should be good at... fighting. They made mistakes at every turn, could only win fights that took place "off screen", and still managed to accidentally win in the end. Barely. I mean, it has a Space marine chasing a cultist on a bike, and the Space Marine forgets his bike has guns on it.
I generally really enjoyed the Eisenhorn books, but here are some things I didn't like:
Spoiler:
Who calls in the Deathwatch when engaging Emperor's Children and Chaos shenaningans? This looks like a job for THE GREY KNIGHTS.
PDF soldiers running circles around Deathwatch Marines at killing enemies and the Deathwatch being all ragey about it, I mean come on
Jetbikes are absolutely everywhere, when pre-Primaris fluff had stated that the Master of the Ravenwing had the last functioning imperial Jetbike
Eisenhorn being comically clueless about aliens for an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos, not even knowing what an Eldar Farseer is
Was it ever explained why the Techpriest felt the need to turn the incorporeal psycho into an indestructible murderbot? Can probably be explained by typical Mechanicus lack of reason though
I haven't read a lot of bad BL books. I even read the first book in C.S Goto's Dawn of War series when I was young and I thought it was a solid read then, not sure it would hold up to nostalgia now though. I have read books that are just disappointing though.
Fastest BL book I've ever put down is Angel Exterminatus, though partly because I was borrowing it. I'm sorry but if your book starts with something like 20 pages describing a character climbing a cliff, you're not taking the medium to a higher literary level, you're just being dull and pretentious.
Aaron Dembski Bowden has never let me down, but Dan Abnett's latest 2 offerings to finish off the Gaunts Ghosts series I just think are a bit limp and unsatisfying. The content just isn't that engaging, the set pieces feel regurgitated from earlier books but in a worse way. The character writing is still solid and its the only thing that kept me reading. Still better than Honour Guard. Only GG book I found painful to finish.
phillv85 wrote: I think Inquisitor was either 89 or 90. It’s real early stuff.
Yeah that's about right, RT times to be sure with most BL books kicking off around late 90s /3rd edition.
Basically it's:
Deathwing (short stories)
Space Marine
Inquisition Wars (Inquisitor/Draco, Harlequin, Chaos Child)
Eye of Terror (actually BL but feels like RT era fiction)
And I'd add Jack Yeovil/Kim Newman's Dark Future books, they're not 40k but they are really post apoc sci fi and very funny. Every so often I see words he coined in them used for 40k like Recaf/coffee.
I haven't read a lot of bad BL books. I even read the first book in C.S Goto's Dawn of War series when I was young and I thought it was a solid read then, not sure it would hold up to nostalgia now though. I have read books that are just disappointing though.
Fastest BL book I've ever put down is Angel Exterminatus, though partly because I was borrowing it. I'm sorry but if your book starts with something like 20 pages describing a character climbing a cliff, you're not taking the medium to a higher literary level, you're just being dull and pretentious.
Aaron Dembski Bowden has never let me down, but Dan Abnett's latest 2 offerings to finish off the Gaunts Ghosts series I just think are a bit limp and unsatisfying. The content just isn't that engaging, the set pieces feel regurgitated from earlier books but in a worse way. The character writing is still solid and its the only thing that kept me reading. Still better than Honour Guard. Only GG book I found painful to finish.
Agreed! i liked angel exterminatus, but I read it before i really knew the gist of the heresy, so I couldnt say if I'd like it as much now, but yeah..the cliff climbing scene was just unnecessary. I think I skipped it on a reread of it.
Graham McNeil really let me down with the Mechanicus series. I hate it because it's humans and Eldar teaming up to stop some ancient and unspeakable horror that you will not see on the tabletop. The plot with the Eldar is extremely contrived also.
Path of the Eldar by Gav Thorpe made me stopped giving a gak on the Eldar. The whole series is full of bad pacing and unlikable characters. And the Eldar culture is something I reject with a passion.
Any book made to sell an upcoming video game (Fire Warrior) or new model (Shadowsword, Skitarii) is probably going to be a quickie and poorly done.
.
not gonna lie, Dark Imperium was a pleasent suprise to read because it's quality greatly exceeded my (admittingly low) expectations. perhaps Guy Haley is just better at writing Marines given his weakest books are all about the Guard?
Any book made to sell an upcoming video game (Fire Warrior) or new model (Shadowsword, Skitarii) is probably going to be a quickie and poorly done.
.
not gonna lie, Dark Imperium was a pleasent suprise to read because it's quality greatly exceeded my (admittingly low) expectations. perhaps Guy Haley is just better at writing Marines given his weakest books are all about the Guard?
I like Baneblade. It was quite a cool read. But Shadow Sword is exceedingly dry and the ending is a repetition of Baneblade in which (SPOILER ALERT!) the Space Marines come to save the poor little defenseless Imperial Guards. Very disappointed with Shadowsword. Could not even finish after looking at the ending.
I find in general for writing for a shared universe, I find I respect those writers that can "color within the lines" so to speak, by not outright conflicting with or overwriting existing background, rather than those writers that run roughshod over existing background either because they didn't know the background (and didn't care to learn) and/or because they are trying to make their personal mark on the background. I think there is enough wiggle room, loose ends, and mysteries that a writer can still have room to do something creative without necessarily having to trample over existing stuff or introduce something that has setting breaking implications.
Iracundus wrote: I find in general for writing for a shared universe, I find I respect those writers that can "color within the lines" so to speak, by not outright conflicting with or overwriting existing background, rather than those writers that run roughshod over existing background either because they didn't know the background (and didn't care to learn) and/or because they are trying to make their personal mark on the background. I think there is enough wiggle room, loose ends, and mysteries that a writer can still have room to do something creative without necessarily having to trample over existing stuff or introduce something that has setting breaking implications.
ADB is good for that, his novels have occasionally included referances to other 40k novels.
Any book made to sell an upcoming video game (Fire Warrior) or new model (Shadowsword, Skitarii) is probably going to be a quickie and poorly done.
.
not gonna lie, Dark Imperium was a pleasent suprise to read because it's quality greatly exceeded my (admittingly low) expectations. perhaps Guy Haley is just better at writing Marines given his weakest books are all about the Guard?
Iracundus wrote: I find in general for writing for a shared universe, I find I respect those writers that can "color within the lines" so to speak, by not outright conflicting with or overwriting existing background, rather than those writers that run roughshod over existing background either because they didn't know the background (and didn't care to learn) and/or because they are trying to make their personal mark on the background. I think there is enough wiggle room, loose ends, and mysteries that a writer can still have room to do something creative without necessarily having to trample over existing stuff or introduce something that has setting breaking implications.
ADB is good for that, his novels have occasionally included referances to other 40k novels.
If only we could get Guy Haley to read ADB's books....
pm713 wrote: I enjoyed the Path of the Eldar books myself.
Though I found the last one to be a little weak, I do think they were amongst the better book of BL. The Dark Eldar version is more disappointing despite a stronger first act.
pm713 wrote: I enjoyed the Path of the Eldar books myself.
Though I found the last one to be a little weak, I do think they were amongst the better book of BL. The Dark Eldar version is more disappointing despite a stronger first act.
The conclusion of Path of the Eldar is....strange. I think they got caught up in the idea of Eldar having strange methods to win and forgot to check for sense.
Path of the Dark Eldar is odd. I loved Path of the Incubus and parts of Path of the Archon with Motley but the overall story is...not as good. I wouldn't say bad though.
pm713 wrote: I enjoyed the Path of the Eldar books myself.
Though I found the last one to be a little weak, I do think they were amongst the better book of BL. The Dark Eldar version is more disappointing despite a stronger first act.
The conclusion of Path of the Eldar is....strange. I think they got caught up in the idea of Eldar having strange methods to win and forgot to check for sense.
Path of the Dark Eldar is odd. I loved Path of the Incubus and parts of Path of the Archon with Motley but the overall story is...not as good. I wouldn't say bad though.
What I liked about Path of the Eldar was that it was a nice little incursion into Craftworld culture and the Path of the Eldar; how it mold their lives and change them; how it plays on their inner nature. I wanted something similar for Path the Dard Eldar and the similar titles made me believe it would be the case, but it turned out mostly into your fairly standard "battle novels".
Shadowsun: Last os Kirus Line
A story that ignores all established tau lore and is about if Shadowsun should have a baby.
IF SHADOWSUN SHOULD HAVE A BABY
and throughout all of it she is haunted by the ghost of her unborn son she might have.
Anyone else here is wrong.
For the first time in my black library history I’ve stopped a book partway through. That honour goes to Descent of Angels. After 6 of the most boring chapters I’ve ever been through I couldn’t take anymore, and I’ve been through some gak books in my time.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I liked Firewarrior. You get to spend so much time meeting interesting, three-dimensional characters. And then Kais shoots their heads off.
The funniest one was the Chaos Dreadnought, where we get to read a pages-long recount about his millenia-long life, starting with serving the Emperor in the Great Crusade, fighting in the Horus Heresy, participating in the Siege of Terra, descending further and further into Chaos damnation, getting entombed into a Cybot sargophagus, raging for eternal slaughter...
and then he accidently falls into a hole and dies.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I liked Firewarrior. You get to spend so much time meeting interesting, three-dimensional characters. And then Kais shoots their heads off.
The funniest one was the Chaos Dreadnought, where we get to read a pages-long recount about his millenia-long life, starting with serving the Emperor in the Great Crusade, fighting in the Horus Heresy, participating in the Siege of Terra, descending further and further into Chaos damnation, getting entombed into a Cybot sargophagus, raging for eternal slaughter...
and then he accidently falls into a hole and dies.
At least, that's how I remember it.
Reminds me of that Gaunt's Ghost story where a single guardsman takes out a Chaos Dreadnought by overloading his lasgun and the Chaos Dread being too stupid to realize that it shouldn't pick up something that is growing hotter and hotter and hissing.
DontEatRawHagis wrote: Reminds me of that Gaunt's Ghost story where a single guardsman takes out a Chaos Dreadnought by overloading his lasgun and the Chaos Dread being too stupid to realize that it shouldn't pick up something that is growing hotter and hotter and hissing.
Isn't it literally blind though? And also probably more than a little insane?
I don't even think it picks up the lasgun, and it's not even really the lasgun that kills it properly. Mkoll throws his overloaded lasgun at the Dreadnought's feet, the explosion cracks open the front of it's sarcophagus, and the noise-sensitive flora around it fire meter-long spines at the source of the noise (the lasgun exploding), which kill the now-exposed pilot.
Space Marines being overpowered by things weaker than common humans. Space Marines being so dumb that they forgot their mission briefings. Space Marines doing backflips in terminator armor.
Honestly it is easier for me to list the stuff I like.
I like most of what Dan Abnett and ADB have done, though I do not like the Heresy series overall and some of the plot decisions taken.
Abnett can also write some turds, and for example the Gaunts Ghost series should have been put to bed a long time ago.
I also like what was it, Commisar Ciaphas Cain? Was that Sandy Mitchell?
The rest of the books I have read have really turgid prose that is hard to get through, or boring as hell plots, poor characterisation or some other critical flaw that really turns me off them.
Bill King does ALRIGHT with Gortrek and Felix, but I also tired of that pretty quickly. Most BL stuff is very much third rate even for tie in fiction. They are lucky to have a few talented people who like the setting writing for them.
The full Eisenhorn series. It's such a mess you could give to someone not telling him it's 40k related he would not notice it.
Where to begin ? Null girl and psy inquisitor touching / in a close relationship ? Civilian jetbikes ? The most lucky human being in the universe (if you can't think of proper way for your heroes to escape a scene, don't put them in this scene...) ? Psy hunter inquisitor that blows a psyker with plasma to cover his traces but mysteriously forgets psykers are tattooed on theirs ankles (that, ofc, remains untouched by plasma) ? Eisenhorn being the ONLY guy in the universe to have a fighter aircraft even if he is still noone of importance while others inquisitors are in unarmed speeders ? It's just... It's never ending.
But I really liked the scene in the train, though.
godardc wrote: The full Eisenhorn series. It's such a mess you could give to someone not telling him it's 40k related he would not notice it.
Where to begin ? Null girl and psy inquisitor touching / in a close relationship ? Civilian jetbikes ? The most lucky human being in the universe (if you can't think of proper way for your heroes to escape a scene, don't put them in this scene...) ? Psy hunter inquisitor that blows a psyker with plasma to cover his traces but mysteriously forgets psykers are tattooed on theirs ankles (that, ofc, remains untouched by plasma) ? Eisenhorn being the ONLY guy in the universe to have a fighter aircraft even if he is still noone of importance while others inquisitors are in unarmed speeders ? It's just... It's never ending.
But I really liked the scene in the train, though.
I was totally not expecting a scene in a 40k book where someone would describe the herb omelette they were having for breakfast on the veranda. More than once.
Sometimes I think Black Library should go back to doing comics, like the old Warhammer Monthly days. A lot of their high-action, low-plot storytelling would be better served by that format, and at least bolterporn is quicker to read in pictorial form.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Sometimes I think Black Library should go back to doing comics, like the old Warhammer Monthly days. A lot of their high-action, low-plot storytelling would be better served by that format, and at least bolterporn is quicker to read in pictorial form.
What, you mean like Deff Skwadron, one of the best things GW has ever produced?
I was totally not expecting a scene in a 40k book where someone would describe the herb omelette they were having for breakfast on the veranda. More than once.
The Black Library's central theme has always been MAXIMUM VIOLENCE NOW! and the Eisenhorn books were no exception. I think you forget that before he had the omelet he was cracking eggs, WITH HIS BARE HANDS.
DalekCheese wrote: Don’t forget the Eldar stealing Leman Russes en masse, and being dragged out of them by children who then do unpleasant things to the Tank Commander.
Is this an actually scene that happens in the book? I read elsewhere that it is just a 1d4chan meme.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Sometimes I think Black Library should go back to doing comics, like the old Warhammer Monthly days. A lot of their high-action, low-plot storytelling would be better served by that format, and at least bolterporn is quicker to read in pictorial form.
What, you mean like Deff Skwadron, one of the best things GW has ever produced?
I was always partial to the old Necromunda stuff, myself. IIRC some of the Mordheim ones were pretty good as well. I've been meaning to pick up back issues of Inferno and Warhammer Monthly off of ebay sometime.
I have to say, the best Warhammer Monthly I saw was when they flipped characters/stories from the 40k world to the fantasy world and vice versa.
Kal Jerico the swashbuckling high seas pirate was fantastic. Malus Darkblade on a Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbike. Ephrael Stern as a Sister of Sigmar in Mordheim... oh yeah.
Still have that issue kicking around from when I bought it.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I have to say, the best Warhammer Monthly I saw was when they flipped characters/stories from the 40k world to the fantasy world and vice versa.
Kal Jerico the swashbuckling high seas pirate was fantastic. Malus Darkblade on a Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbike. Ephrael Stern as a Sister of Sigmar in Mordheim... oh yeah.
Still have that issue kicking around from when I bought it.
The Inquisition Wars by Ian Watson were the first 40k books and I love them to death but many people hate them with great hate.
[/spoiler]
Me too. These were the books that got me into 40k, 25 years ago. Whats the source of folks hate for these? I assume not fitting 'the lore' or 'the fluff'? There wasn't much 'lore' or 'fluff' back then anyway. It was playing a table top game with cool little miniatures and filling in the blanks yourself, or just not caring. I bought a large pile of modern space marine authored books recently at a garage sale. Cant remember the titles but a few I think has chaos marines with 'butchers nails'. Worst tripe I have read for a while. It was written like as if you put a teenage kid in chaos marine armour and got him to describe his experiences. In other words goofy and gushy.
godardc wrote: The full Eisenhorn series. It's such a mess you could give to someone not telling him it's 40k related he would not notice it.
Where to begin ? Null girl and psy inquisitor touching / in a close relationship ? Civilian jetbikes ? The most lucky human being in the universe (if you can't think of proper way for your heroes to escape a scene, don't put them in this scene...) ? Psy hunter inquisitor that blows a psyker with plasma to cover his traces but mysteriously forgets psykers are tattooed on theirs ankles (that, ofc, remains untouched by plasma) ? Eisenhorn being the ONLY guy in the universe to have a fighter aircraft even if he is still noone of importance while others inquisitors are in unarmed speeders ? It's just... It's never ending.
But I really liked the scene in the train, though.
Man, we must have totally different tastes, I love Eisenhorn, especially the Xenos book. I even liked him and Bequin's storyline! I think part of the reason is that I really love when authors scale it down in the 40k universe and not just galaxy shattering events constantly. But there are even marines and lots of chaos in Eisenhorn? It's clearly a 40k book
Goto's crimes against the source material and literature as a whole aside, I've only had one real "I actively disliked reading this" experience with BL so far: Battle for the Abyss.
It's absolutely a book I'd recommend skipping, helped by the fact that the entire story is pointless in the grand scheme of things. It adds absolutely nothing, with a negative payoff that made me wonder why the hell I'd just bothered reading the damn thing.
The entire plot could easily have been condensed to a subplot of a larger book, or even just mentioned off-hand as a footnote to drive something else.
Any value gained from characterisation is absolutely wasted on a few hundred pages of objective nothing.
godardc wrote: The full Eisenhorn series. It's such a mess you could give to someone not telling him it's 40k related he would not notice it.
Where to begin ? Null girl and psy inquisitor touching / in a close relationship ? Civilian jetbikes ? The most lucky human being in the universe (if you can't think of proper way for your heroes to escape a scene, don't put them in this scene...) ? Psy hunter inquisitor that blows a psyker with plasma to cover his traces but mysteriously forgets psykers are tattooed on theirs ankles (that, ofc, remains untouched by plasma) ? Eisenhorn being the ONLY guy in the universe to have a fighter aircraft even if he is still noone of importance while others inquisitors are in unarmed speeders ? It's just... It's never ending.
But I really liked the scene in the train, though.
Man, we must have totally different tastes, I love Eisenhorn, especially the Xenos book. I even liked him and Bequin's storyline! I think part of the reason is that I really love when authors scale it down in the 40k universe and not just galaxy shattering events constantly. But there are even marines and lots of chaos in Eisenhorn? It's clearly a 40k book
I agree with you. I recently reread them, and Eisenhorn is physically repulsed by her in Xenos. It's a testament to his empathy that he can overcome his innate loathing for untouchables and feel sorry for her. The second book is almost a full century later and it took him that long to learn to tolerate her presence. They both feel keenly for each other, and I think Abnett did a good job of emphasizing the tragic irony about their feelings (although I do think introducing the medical doctor as an alternative love interest was a misstep - for the most part I don't think romance is Abnett's strong suit, which fair enough, that's why you write for Black Library).
I tried to read Deliverance Lost a few weeks ago and did not enjoy it. Is it worth finishing? I felt that the characterizations were too on the nose - people are angsty after Istvaan V, and there's an inner cabal of people who were there vs people who weren't, and in general the prose was not very strong.
DalekCheese wrote: Don’t forget the Eldar stealing Leman Russes en masse, and being dragged out of them by children who then do unpleasant things to the Tank Commander.
Is this an actually scene that happens in the book? I read elsewhere that it is just a 1d4chan meme.
It’s both. Eldar did steal IG tanks, (thanks CS Goto!) but it’s definitely been exaggerated.
DalekCheese wrote: Don’t forget the Eldar stealing Leman Russes en masse, and being dragged out of them by children who then do unpleasant things to the Tank Commander.
Is this an actually scene that happens in the book? I read elsewhere that it is just a 1d4chan meme.
It’s both. Eldar did steal IG tanks, (thanks CS Goto!) but it’s definitely been exaggerated.
So what actually happened then? Even the basic idea is a bit silly, it's a bit like if a modern army nicked WW1 tanks to use. They're just worse in almost every way and the ways they aren't worse aren't worth being better in.
Me too. These were the books that got me into 40k, 25 years ago. Whats the source of folks hate for these? I assume not fitting 'the lore' or 'the fluff'? There wasn't much 'lore' or 'fluff' back then anyway. It was playing a table top game with cool little miniatures and filling in the blanks yourself, or just not caring.
Watson's prose style is a matter of taste, personally I can't stand it when he starts to really waffle on. His stuff has of course acquired meme status as well, thanks to being roundly mocked by TTS and the like. Still, he did have it coming in some respects. Like the whole "millions are dead, and here I munch" and "sugar on the porridge of death" stuff.
The fate of that Magos is one of the worst I have seen in 40k.
That's a brilliant story. A quick read, but it gives you just enough meat on the bone as to be intriguing. It makes me wish I could sculpt, so I could realize a force of Men of Iron
DalekCheese wrote: Don’t forget the Eldar stealing Leman Russes en masse, and being dragged out of them by children who then do unpleasant things to the Tank Commander.
Is this an actually scene that happens in the book? I read elsewhere that it is just a 1d4chan meme.
It’s both. Eldar did steal IG tanks, (thanks CS Goto!) but it’s definitely been exaggerated.
So what actually happened then? Even the basic idea is a bit silly, it's a bit like if a modern army nicked WW1 tanks to use. They're just worse in almost every way and the ways they aren't worse aren't worth being better in.
Remember in the Battleship movie how they had to steal a WW2 Battleship because "worse technology is the secret trick!"? Yeah, it didn't make sense in that, either.
Platuan4th wrote: Remember in the Battleship movie how they had to steal a WW2 Battleship because "worse technology is the secret trick!"? Yeah, it didn't make sense in that, either.
It did make sense. An Iowa class is built like a fortress compared to a modern missile destroyer.
Platuan4th wrote: Remember in the Battleship movie how they had to steal a WW2 Battleship because "worse technology is the secret trick!"? Yeah, it didn't make sense in that, either.
It did make sense. An Iowa class is built like a fortress compared to a modern missile destroyer.
So the US just keeps battleships lying around that are fully functional? Or does the Iowa Class come with a magic water repellent hull?
pm713 wrote: So the US just keeps battleships lying around that are fully functional? Or does the Iowa Class come with a magic water repellent hull?
Oh don't get me wrong, the movie isn't exactly realistic. Whilst the USS Missouri can theoretically be used, it would need a lot more work than it gets in the film. I do love that film though, mainly because I love massive ships.
pm713 wrote: So the US just keeps battleships lying around that are fully functional? Or does the Iowa Class come with a magic water repellent hull?
Oh don't get me wrong, the movie isn't exactly realistic. Whilst the USS Missouri can theoretically be used, it would need a lot more work than it gets in the film. I do love that film though, mainly because I love massive ships.
Platuan4th wrote: Remember in the Battleship movie how they had to steal a WW2 Battleship because "worse technology is the secret trick!"? Yeah, it didn't make sense in that, either.
It did make sense. An Iowa class is built like a fortress compared to a modern missile destroyer.
So the US just keeps battleships lying around that are fully functional? Or does the Iowa Class come with a magic water repellent hull?
Montage!
As for Ian Watson... he gave the world the image of ejaculating bolters and for that he should get a knighthood at the very least.
Da Boss wrote: Inferno was great. Dan Abnett had some great short fiction in there. The first one I got was the one with the Escher ganger on the cover.
Think I had issue one that had the Lone surviving terminator on a planet who loses his memory and is taken in by the local people who are getting picked off by this monster. Turns out it’s a Carnifex that killed the rest of the Terminator’s squad and then he sees his armour and remembers who is and goes off to fight the Carnifex to save his new “family”
pm713 wrote: So the US just keeps battleships lying around that are fully functional? Or does the Iowa Class come with a magic water repellent hull?
Oh don't get me wrong, the movie isn't exactly realistic. Whilst the USS Missouri can theoretically be used, it would need a lot more work than it gets in the film. I do love that film though, mainly because I love massive ships.
I love how all the old salt crew members are just milling around on the ship too... shouldnt they be retired in an armchair somewhere?
Da Boss wrote: Inferno was great. Dan Abnett had some great short fiction in there. The first one I got was the one with the Escher ganger on the cover.
Think I had issue one that had the Lone surviving terminator on a planet who loses his memory and is taken in by the local people who are getting picked off by this monster. Turns out it’s a Carnifex that killed the rest of the Terminator’s squad and then he sees his armour and remembers who is and goes off to fight the Carnifex to save his new “family”
I remember one where an inquisitor tries to both stop a demonic incursion and save the child psyker who's (inadvertently) responsible for it.
I've just read Mike Brooks necromunda story from the BL celebration book.. Going to put him down as one to avoid, the story wasn't particularly bad, but the whole thing was very hard to read purely from an English language perspective, due to the use of certain words. I won't go into it here but if you read the story you'll probably figure out what I mean.
Duskweaver wrote: "The trouble with the Heresy as envisaged by GW is it just feels like 40K - it doesn't have the feel of a genuinely different society that ten thousand years separation would give you. Whenever I wrote anything that referenced back to those times I always wrote in a legendary, non-literal style. It's as if you were dealing with something like the Iliad rather than literal history - and there you're only talking three thousand years - ten thousand years - that takes us back to the end of the last ice-age... and I don't get any sense of understanding about 'deep time' when I look at anything GW have set in the 40K 'past'."
Even the best HH books feel like they're set a few centuries at most prior to the 40K 'present', not in an unfathomably distant past. And authors being too keen on filling in all the interesting gaps has led to things like the Emperor looking like a moron with a stupid plan that could never have worked; and the Primarchs feeling like ridiculous man-babies (and being literal physical giants rather than that being a result of ten millennia of ignorance and myth-making).
To add some late two cents;
I feel like the issue with HH as a series (and I generally like it) is that so much of it works as "distant legend" but just doesn't work when treated as something that literally happened.
The series makes numerous characters look like absolute morons, the Emperor actually being one of the worst. Master of Mankind only made this worse in a lot of ways. The whole series, with it's blatantly damaged characters and so obviously wrong you have to be a complete idiot not to see the problem relationships makes the Heresy come off as something that should have doomed the Impirium from the start, not something that any corrupting gods needed to come along and conspire for. How the feth was telling Magnus off decades after the fact remotely close to a good way of handling the psyker problem? Why the hell is the Emperor saying "no religion" while ignoring Lorgar's preaching for centuries? What was he literally thinking putting Angron in charge of anything, let alone letting him stay in charge of anything after the first few years? It goes beyond a simple lack of empathy or compassion, or misplaced trust. Its mind boggling, something that could only result from true idiocy.
It works just fine in a 10,000 years ago kind of way, when propaganda, myth, and legend has colored everything and misrepresented the truth. As actual literal events it just does not work and trying to make it work makes every character come off as a moron to dumb to live. Early in the series, my biggest beef was that we never got to see much of the brotherhood of the Primachs, the good times between them that would make the war to come really heart shattering. By the end of the series, I just didn't care anymore because everything about their characters is so dysfunctional from a narrative perspective. They should have been one of the coolest parts of the series and instead became the biggest drags as the rampant stupidity that surrounds their behaviors and actions piles up.
HH desperately needed GW to go outside their comfort zone and say "we need to adapt these legends that have been in the canon for eons and present them as real stories about real people." HH is not that, and it really only gets worse as the series enters its massive drag after the first dozen books.
Our money and more importantly time are limited and should not be spent on crap
