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2020/02/21 03:43:31
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
It's a book that tells you that baneblades and shadowswords are great. The Characters are boring, the Story is boring, the ending is boring. Nothing really happens throughout the book except that the main Character gets promoted from shooting up stuff in a baneblade to shooting bigger stuff up in a shadowsword. The Story is incredibly bland. Never before has a book felt so much like a model Advertisement like this one did.
I liked it a lot better than his Konrad Curze novel.
2020/02/21 03:46:34
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
Esmer wrote: To me, the first time I noticed the "30k = 40k" feels, and I remember being quite annoyed by it, was with "Fulgrim".
You had alien civilizations with ancient temples dedicated to Slaanesh, when the dude had basically been born like yesterday in galactic time.
An Eldar army that looked like it directly came over from a M40 battlefield, with Wraithguards and an Avatar, when the Eldar too should still have been in the process of getting their act together directly after the Fall.
And finally, Emperor's Children directly turning into Noise Marines complete with sonic weaponry upon their corruption. Here too, you'd think this would have been a longer process.
Mmm, that eldar thing isn't so backwards as you might imagine. Old lore has the fall of the Eldar literally millions of years ago, with what's left of their culture pretty much stagnant since then. That particular retcon doesn't quite gall me as much as the SW re-imagining or the change to what the Edict of Nikaea actually said though - those are far more fundamental.
Plus, of course, I agree with earlier mentioned comments that the HH should never have been delved into in detail - it's supposed to be a time of mystery, a legendary past that no one knows exactly what happened and only bits and pieces of facts survive from then.
2020/02/21 08:06:08
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
I always wanted to read about Dark Angels fighting Tau. All of a sudden War of Secrets was announce and holy crap was I hyped... till I noticed who the author was.
That book wasnt bad actually, until near the end where the non-canon Firewarrior's protagonist goes on a rampage inside an SM fortress monestary. That was just pathetic.
It's a book that tells you that baneblades and shadowswords are great. The Characters are boring, the Story is boring, the ending is boring. Nothing really happens throughout the book except that the main Character gets promoted from shooting up stuff in a baneblade to shooting bigger stuff up in a shadowsword. The Story is incredibly bland. Never before has a book felt so much like a model Advertisement like this one did.
I liked it a lot better than his Konrad Curze novel.
That is hilarious because I thought Baneblade was super boring too. Havemt read Shadowsword, but man, I couldnt bother paying attention so I had no idea what was happening throughout the whole novel until the last action scene, which I thought was pretty good.
Funny enough, Pandorax had a better portrayal of the Baneblade family (A Hellhammer in this case) than Baneblade did.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/21 08:11:09
123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.
I never really saw the problem with the multilasers. Sure, they are not a current Codex option. However, it is hardly beyond imagining that a SM chapter could field some man-portable multilasers, they wouldn't be much different to marines carrying lascannons.
I think one of the worst I have read was Flesh and Iron. I actually rather liked the book. It made me love the idea of a single flyer supporting a mobile army, which is something I have emulated with my Vulture gunship. It also shows ideas of wet naval units in 40k, something that is rarely seen. However, there is the whole plagarism thing, which is a rather serious negative point when it comes to fiction.
1.0 out of 5 stars
Profoundly disappointing, August 23, 2009
By Kid Kyoto (Beijing) - See all my reviews
In Games Workshop's Warhammer 40k universe the Adeptus Mechanicus is a mysterious organization of tech priests who worship knowledge and consider technology the divine creations of the Machine God. Mechanicum is supposed to give the history of this organization and reveal its secrets.
It's not worth reading.
The book has two main plots, the first is a young Adept named Dalia's quest for the Dragon of Mars, the second is the brewing civil war among the various forge cities and warrior orders of Mars.
The first two hundred pages of this book are spent trying to bore the reader to death as mysterious tech priest and mighty Titan pilots argue the finer points of Machine God theology and parliamentary procedure. Meanwhile Dalia quickly becomes an irritating Mary Sue character with ill-defined magical powers and a great destiny. Somewhere around page 200 forbidden vaults are opened, the forces of Chaos are unleashed and the action picks up. For a couple of pages. Then we're back to hearing about Dalia's romantic crushes, the proper way to wire a psychic chair and the difficulties of securing a wireless network from demonic computer viruses. It's not until page 300 or so that Dalia gets around to starting her quest, an epic struggle that involves not only a long boring train ride, but also a long boring car ride. There's also a giant robot attack but Dalia's magic powers deal with that before anyone can get too interested.
The civil war, when it finally does come is a confusing mess of Latin names and obscure references to long out of print GW games. If you don't know the difference between a Reaver Titan and a Warlord don't even bother trying to follow it.
Some of GW's writers like Ian Watson, Dan Abnett and Kim (Jack Yeovil) Newman have tremendous skills in using the English language to make the mundane seem mysterious, McNeill does the opposite. His references to maglev trains, wireless networks and fiber optics makes the ancient tech priests of Mars seem about as exciting as my cable company.
Even for fans of the Horus Heresy series there just isn't much here. Mars falls to chaos is about all you need to know if you're following the larger story.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/21 10:10:23
2020/02/21 10:10:10
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
It may be because I'm an old time gamer but a prefer the old pre-Black Library era books of Drachenfels and Inquisitor and the like, when it was a bit more 'expanded universe' rather than cast-iron canon.
Out of the HH series I've only read Betrayer which only confirmed my feeling that the series should be avoided at all costs. YMMV or course.
2020/02/21 10:11:59
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
MarkNorfolk wrote: It may be because I'm an old time gamer but a prefer the old pre-Black Library era books of Drachenfels and Inquisitor and the like, when it was a bit more 'expanded universe' rather than cast-iron canon.
Out of the HH series I've only read Betrayer which only confirmed my feeling that the series should be avoided at all costs. YMMV or course.
Drakenfels is one the best damn fantasy novels I've read. I reread it every few years and have like 3 versions of it. Kim "Jack Yeovil" Newman is awesome even his Dark Future books are worth rereading.
His long-running Anno Dracula series is tons of fun too.
2020/02/21 10:16:15
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
MarkNorfolk wrote: ...when it was a bit more 'expanded universe' rather than cast-iron canon.
I would argue that there is no such thing. For all we know, the Horus Heresy novels are just the 40k equivalent of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, offering a highly dramatic version of real events. One reason I like 40k so much is because of how loose the concept of canon is.
Oh sure. GW can 'do a Disney' and say the HH (or any novel) is just 'legends' at any time. But they seem to have the feel of officaldom and the HH fans treat it as 'The Truth'. It seems to me, anyway.
2020/02/21 10:39:44
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
My point is that the concept of "officialdom" is way less than for other IPs. Sure, HH may be "the Truth" but because of the way 40k is writtem, there is a valid viewpoint that it is not. It is something that is not seen much in other canons, the ability to choose your own interpretation of events.
Of course there are limits, some things would be harder to justify.
MarkNorfolk wrote: Oh sure. GW can 'do a Disney' and say the HH (or any novel) is just 'legends' at any time. But they seem to have the feel of officaldom and the HH fans treat it as 'The Truth'. It seems to me, anyway.
So what you're saying is...
Horus Heresy Book 65-Horus Falling
Page 493
"The Emperor is not dead, he lives on in the Golden Throne! He is no longer a man, he has become a god! Long live the Emperor!" Rogal Dorn ejaculated loudly.
"Long live the Emperor!" The assembled Legions replied.
Epiloge
T...H...E... E...N...D...
And with those words Scribe-Historian Danyel D'Abelnet laid down his quill and massaged his aching fingers. These fictional, romanticized tales of the Horus Heresy has been an interesting diversion for him and his coherts in the Scriptum. It was a shame no one else would read them, no one else could even know they existed. To put words in the mouths of the sacred primarchs? The Emperor himself? And to even speak of the Fallen Ones? That was three death sentences right there. Alas.
Still it had been fun. He couldn't wait to show the final manuscript to his fellow Scribe Benjamin The Counter. Danyel truly believed it was his best work yet.
Call it the St Elsewhere ending.
2020/02/21 14:38:37
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
Suddenly, the doorway exploded inwards in a flash of light. D'Abelnet barely had time to turn before he felt the cold touch of a bolt pistol against his temple. Though his ears were ringing, he could still make out the intruder's words.
"I am Inquisitor Maledrex of the Ordo Scriptum. You have been found guilty of Historo-Heresy. The sentence is death. Eventually."
D'Abelnet screamed as he was dragged away.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/21 14:39:38
Skitarius by Rob Sanders. This book was the highlight of the GW releasing a book to sell models phase. Skitarii just came out and so there needed to be a book to highlight how Skitarii worked in combat.
We got a small amount of cool characters. But it felt like an extended version of a Codex Supplement. Not an actual novel.
I like the idea of adding character to the new models that get released but the novel did nothing for Skitarii. The one saving grace is a Ruststalker who follows the letter, but not the spirit of his orders. So being told to secure a drop site was interpreted by him as slaughter all non-combatants within a kilometer of the drop site.
The book should have been a highlight of how different Skitarii characters interact with one another. But ended up being corridors of bolter porn as a Skitarii unit showed up to kill something and then disappear so we could get more Chaos Dark Mechanicum story.
2020/02/21 14:50:42
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
Esmer wrote: To me, the first time I noticed the "30k = 40k" feels, and I remember being quite annoyed by it, was with "Fulgrim".
You had alien civilizations with ancient temples dedicated to Slaanesh, when the dude had basically been born like yesterday in galactic time.
An Eldar army that looked like it directly came over from a M40 battlefield, with Wraithguards and an Avatar, when the Eldar too should still have been in the process of getting their act together directly after the Fall.
And finally, Emperor's Children directly turning into Noise Marines complete with sonic weaponry upon their corruption. Here too, you'd think this would have been a longer process.
Mmm, that eldar thing isn't so backwards as you might imagine. Old lore has the fall of the Eldar literally millions of years ago, with what's left of their culture pretty much stagnant since then.
Pretty sure the Fall of the Eldar and the birth of Slaanesh have been described as taking place around M30 since at least Slaves to Darkness/Lost and Damned.
2020/02/21 15:37:26
Subject: Re:What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
123ply wrote: Anything by Phil Kelly that touches the Tau.
I always wanted to read about Dark Angels fighting Tau. All of a sudden War of Secrets was announce and holy crap was I hyped... till I noticed who the author was.
That book wasnt bad actually, until near the end where the non-canon Firewarrior's protagonist goes on a rampage inside an SM fortress monestary. That was just pathetic.
It's a book that tells you that baneblades and shadowswords are great. The Characters are boring, the Story is boring, the ending is boring. Nothing really happens throughout the book except that the main Character gets promoted from shooting up stuff in a baneblade to shooting bigger stuff up in a shadowsword. The Story is incredibly bland. Never before has a book felt so much like a model Advertisement like this one did.
I liked it a lot better than his Konrad Curze novel.
That is hilarious because I thought Baneblade was super boring too. Havemt read Shadowsword, but man, I couldnt bother paying attention so I had no idea what was happening throughout the whole novel until the last action scene, which I thought was pretty good.
Funny enough, Pandorax had a better portrayal of the Baneblade family (A Hellhammer in this case) than Baneblade did.
I felt similarly about the Dark Angel side. It wasn't bad until the end where it was just bone headed and I had to put the book down to try and understand how or why that was permitted.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2020/02/21 20:25:12
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
Duskweaver wrote: Re. the HH series, I think Rick Priestley best articulated why a lot of it is so bad:
"The trouble with the Heresy as envisaged by GW is it just feels like 40K - it doesn't have the feel of a genuinely different society that ten thousand years separation would give you. Whenever I wrote anything that referenced back to those times I always wrote in a legendary, non-literal style. It's as if you were dealing with something like the Iliad rather than literal history - and there you're only talking three thousand years - ten thousand years - that takes us back to the end of the last ice-age... and I don't get any sense of understanding about 'deep time' when I look at anything GW have set in the 40K 'past'."
Even the best HH books feel like they're set a few centuries at most prior to the 40K 'present', not in an unfathomably distant past. And authors being too keen on filling in all the interesting gaps has led to things like the Emperor looking like a moron with a stupid plan that could never have worked; and the Primarchs feeling like ridiculous man-babies (and being literal physical giants rather than that being a result of ten millennia of ignorance and myth-making).
I agree with much of what you say/quote. But I actually think the first alpha legion book ticks the “deep time” box pretty well. The description of the imperial guard regiments and the fact that people aren’t in awe of the SMs paints a much different picture.
2020/02/21 21:27:15
Subject: Re:What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
The Inquisition Wars by Ian Watson were the first 40k books and I love them to death but many people hate them with great hate.
Sons of Dorn strikes me as a book I read and then tossed in the Goodwill bin.
My old review:
Spoiler:
In the Warhammer 40k universe Space Marines are superhuman warriors fanatically loyal to the Emperor. This makes them great for wargames but hard to write in novels since there's little to tell them apart. Sons of Dorn tries to breath some life into marines by following three initiates as they are grabbed off their primitive world and molded into Space Marines. The result is a strong start but then a very predictable story.
It starts strong introducing 3 mortal enemies from 3 different cultures. The Imperial Fist Space Marine chapter descends upon their world and literally pulls them off the battlefield as potential recruits. In the trials that follow the recruits are whittled down from thousands to just a few dozen. The marines are cruel and unfeeling, unworthy recruits are disposable.
But once our 3 heroes become marine scouts (the lowest rank) things become dull and predictable. There's a desperate battle against hopeless odds where despite foolish tactics the marines prevail. The potentially interesting subplot of their continuing hatred towards one another is referred to but never amounts to anything.
As for the climactic battle, Chris Roberson simply fails to create a compelling scene. After spending most of the book praising the Imperial Fists for their skill at siege warfare he has them make several foolish choices. They send away most of their force and all of their air support. They defend a vital gate with only 3 men armed with short ranged flamers rather than heavy bolters. They miss obvious hints that some of their charges cannot be trusted.
So this book is readable but what should be the climax is very disappointing.
Wait, is Sons of Dorn a rewrite of Ian Watsons Space Marine but with the third act changed?
The Inquisition Wars by Ian Watson were the first 40k books and I love them to death but many people hate them with great hate.
Sons of Dorn strikes me as a book I read and then tossed in the Goodwill bin.
My old review:
Spoiler:
In the Warhammer 40k universe Space Marines are superhuman warriors fanatically loyal to the Emperor. This makes them great for wargames but hard to write in novels since there's little to tell them apart. Sons of Dorn tries to breath some life into marines by following three initiates as they are grabbed off their primitive world and molded into Space Marines. The result is a strong start but then a very predictable story.
It starts strong introducing 3 mortal enemies from 3 different cultures. The Imperial Fist Space Marine chapter descends upon their world and literally pulls them off the battlefield as potential recruits. In the trials that follow the recruits are whittled down from thousands to just a few dozen. The marines are cruel and unfeeling, unworthy recruits are disposable.
But once our 3 heroes become marine scouts (the lowest rank) things become dull and predictable. There's a desperate battle against hopeless odds where despite foolish tactics the marines prevail. The potentially interesting subplot of their continuing hatred towards one another is referred to but never amounts to anything.
As for the climactic battle, Chris Roberson simply fails to create a compelling scene. After spending most of the book praising the Imperial Fists for their skill at siege warfare he has them make several foolish choices. They send away most of their force and all of their air support. They defend a vital gate with only 3 men armed with short ranged flamers rather than heavy bolters. They miss obvious hints that some of their charges cannot be trusted.
So this book is readable but what should be the climax is very disappointing.
Wait, is Sons of Dorn a rewrite of Ian Watsons Space Marine but with the third act changed?
What? No. No, no, no.
Well but yes.
Except take everything good from Watson and now make it really suck.
2020/02/21 22:01:54
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
Watsons draco was a tough read, but I think that's because I was reading it through modern eyes, and the book comes from a time where, to quote 1d4chan, 'No one had a f-g clue what they where doing, so we get Squats, Zoats and lasgun-wielding Space Marines. We also get Space Marines out-farting each other with their specially engineered a-holes.'
I just remember it seeming to me like he was trying to shoehorn every faction in there somehow. And the bit on the Chaos planet with the sentient moon was just weird.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2020/02/21 22:41:57
Subject: Re:What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
OK so in Rogue Trader there was like a 2 page sample adventure set on Rynn's World pitting the Crimson Fists against the Orks called the Battle of the Farm.
As we entered the age where GW strip mines their past someone got the idea of blowing the 2 pages of background into a 500 page book.
It does not go well...
Spoiler:
When Warhammer 40k debuted in 1987 it came with a simple scenario for the first battle. Battle at the Farm was a 4 page set up pitting Space Marine commander Pedro Cantor against a group of ferocious Ork warriors.
Now, almost 25 years later Steve Parker turns it into a 530 page novel. When I saw it I figured it would be neat to see how the very first 40k battle scaled up to a full novel.
It doesn't.
Parker keeps the basic scenario (Ork invasion, Marine fortress destroyed) but brings nothing original or interesting to the delivery. The plot unfolds like he's checking off a list. Things get bad, then worse, then horrible, then there's hope, a desperate plan, and finally the main hero and villain have to settle things with a fist fight.
Unlike Ian Watson or Dan Abnett's books Parker does not make use of Warhammer's trademark archaic vocabulary, everything is mundane and dulled down, almost as if this were Warhammer for Young Readers. The editing is sloppy, at one point flogging is called 'capital punishment' rather than 'corporal punishment', a simple error that should never have seen print. Parker also does not do enough to differentiate his main characters. Granted Space Marines are mostly one-dimensional killing machines but the only differences Parker is able to give them is one is slightly more aggressive than another. The descriptions of the battles are cliched and unimaginative, the battles themselves lack any clever twists, and the secondary characters never manage to come into their own.
There is some potential early on, we have a female governor with a schoolgirl crush on Pedro Cantor, we have a group of refugees where the marines must rescue, forcing them to choose between protecting the weak and fulfilling their mission. But neither of these subplots go anywhere.
The finale makes no sense. The Marines must retake the spaceport so that Imperial reinforcements can arrive. But it was already established that Space Marines (including the ones reinforcing them) have dropships and drop pods, they don't need a spaceport and could easily take it themselves if they need it for larger ships. When they retake the port the Marines find the communications, landing pads and even the weapons intact, but it was already established the orks loot and destroy anything they can get their hands on. The final battle literally comes out of the bright blue sky and accomplishes nothing.
It's a handsome book with an over-sized trim and some color plates in the center but the color maps are wasted. They show areas of the planet where nothing in the book happens and don't even detail New Rynn City where most of the action takes place. They would have been better used for more detailed battle maps or maybe arms and equipment guides.
Avoid this book, if you're looking for good 40k action look for Dan Abnett's Guant's Ghosts books.
2020/02/21 23:16:35
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
Almost certainly not the worst, but I used to think that ADB could do no wrong...and then I read The Talon of Horus. If Iskander Khayon had been some thirteen year old's fan fic, it would have been understandable. But from ADB?....shocking
VAIROSEAN LIVES!
2020/02/22 00:35:02
Subject: What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
The “—— of Mars” series might be my least favorite. I’ve read other stuff by Graham McNeill that was good, this wasn’t it. The story wasn’t bad per se, but the whole thing felt really sloppy. Like it was describing one character talking about his shaved head, and then two sentences later it’s talking about his hair. Or the one black Templar who gets his hand cut off, but five pages later he’s got his hand again.
Plus as a really nerdy point: there was a scene where a bunch of characters are standing around basking in the “glittering nitrogen rain”. The boiling point of nitrogen is -320 degrees F.
2020/02/22 01:29:41
Subject: Re:What are widely considered the WORST Black Library novels, and why?
The Inquisition Wars by Ian Watson were the first 40k books and I love them to death but many people hate them with great hate.
Sons of Dorn strikes me as a book I read and then tossed in the Goodwill bin.
My old review:
Spoiler:
In the Warhammer 40k universe Space Marines are superhuman warriors fanatically loyal to the Emperor. This makes them great for wargames but hard to write in novels since there's little to tell them apart. Sons of Dorn tries to breath some life into marines by following three initiates as they are grabbed off their primitive world and molded into Space Marines. The result is a strong start but then a very predictable story.
It starts strong introducing 3 mortal enemies from 3 different cultures. The Imperial Fist Space Marine chapter descends upon their world and literally pulls them off the battlefield as potential recruits. In the trials that follow the recruits are whittled down from thousands to just a few dozen. The marines are cruel and unfeeling, unworthy recruits are disposable.
But once our 3 heroes become marine scouts (the lowest rank) things become dull and predictable. There's a desperate battle against hopeless odds where despite foolish tactics the marines prevail. The potentially interesting subplot of their continuing hatred towards one another is referred to but never amounts to anything.
As for the climactic battle, Chris Roberson simply fails to create a compelling scene. After spending most of the book praising the Imperial Fists for their skill at siege warfare he has them make several foolish choices. They send away most of their force and all of their air support. They defend a vital gate with only 3 men armed with short ranged flamers rather than heavy bolters. They miss obvious hints that some of their charges cannot be trusted.
So this book is readable but what should be the climax is very disappointing.
Wait, is Sons of Dorn a rewrite of Ian Watsons Space Marine but with the third act changed?
What? No. No, no, no.
Well but yes.
Except take everything good from Watson and now make it really suck.
But. . . Why?
I blame BL for a number of wrong turns in 40k, giant primarchs, even more focus on marines, etc.
Warzone Fenris.
Dark Angels - Punishment before penance.
Bombards Fenris.
Wrath of Magnus.
Dark Angels - Oh sorry - it wasn’t Fenris, just a mining operation on some random other planet in the Fenris system and totally the Changeling’s fault.
Ragnar - No problem, brofist for old time’s sake and do you want some help chasing the Changeling into the Rock?
Grey Knight Captain Stern - Sounds like a blast, I’m keen.
Dark Angels - Ummm...
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
2200pts/1750 painted
2800pts/1200 painted
2200pts/650 painted
217pts/151 painted 
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
