So with the release of the Seraphon, I think that’s all the surviving original fantasy lines now covered? Which makes me ask, what’s next? We have the new ‘High Elves’ on the horizon. What else would you like to see?

There’s two armies mentioned in the fluff that have yet to appear; the ‘Dark Elves’ of Malerion and the Grotbag Scuttlers who harass the Overlords shipping lanes. I definitely hope they both make an appearance soon.

What else could they do? The Death and Destruction factions are looking pretty slim in comparison to Order and Chaos. They definitely could do with some love.

Sons of Behamat are all but confirmed- a giant themed race.

After that, I expect some sort or Stormcast release! Been a couple of years.

Dark Elves are the ones I'd like to see.

They were an army I was seriously considering getting into late into 8th edition. But then AoS happened and they ended up just being a mess of tiny subfactions.

I know they've had something of a resurgence in Cities of Sigmar, but the complete absence of key units is pretty noticeable. e.g. the fact that Dreadlords apparently grow on their dragons like fungus, as they simply don't exist on foot.

Halflings!

A destruction race that's like Idoneth for Order, not just up or downsized orc archetype. So maybe something industrial-themed but still anarchic/anti Order?

Cronch wrote:
A destruction race that's like Idoneth for Order, not just up or downsized orc archetype. So maybe something industrial-themed but still anarchic/anti Order?

I could see a faction of industrialists so obsessed with power and profiteering they literally dont care about the conflict between and order and chaos.

It does risk stepping on sky dwarf toes a bit though. Needs a different aesthetic gimmick.

Well there's currently two confirmed near enough

Light Aelves which we've seen the photos of some miniatures already

Sons of Behamat which we've seen a few hints here and there, a shipping manifesto, a confirmation in a GW video that they exist (sorry are a myth) and rumour that they are giants.


After that there's a few that I think are almost certain to appear.

1) The Shadow Aelves - Malarion's army which are said to rule most of the Shadow Realm (Daughter's of Khain only inhabit a small corner). With draconic style leader and slaanesh saved warped aelves.

2) Soulblight/Vampire army for Death. Almost a certain thing considering how popular vampires were before and how often they appear in the stories. GW is most likely going to do the same for them that they've done for other Death armies; which is to take out the parts that are needed from the Legion of Nagash and add to them to make a new army.

3) Based on how GW does the soulbight army they might also do a Skeleton army. Now this is hard to predict because Skeletons could remain the Legion of Nagash and rise as its unique core feature; or they could be absorbed into the Vampire army or they could go it alone.
Ossiarchs are an undead construct army, but they are the "elite" of the bone constructs. I'd wager a regular skeleton themed army would be more akin to a swarm of undead units.



After those its very hard to predict anything;

a) I'd like to see Destruction get one or two more armies. By its very nature its one of the more fragmented Grand Alliances and thus could easily take on a few more armies of different and wildly varied kinds.

b) Grottbag scuttlers might appear. It's hard to say since GW generally has most races (esp grots and skaven) stealing KO airships and refitting them. It could be something GW keeps in the lore alone as a conversion idea for gamers; or one or two might make it as actual armies; its very hard to say

c) Dragons - I mean just look at how epic the setting is and how few dragons there are!! It's criminal!



Honestly I hope there aren't too many more armies. It's not that I don't think GW can't do it, but that there's a good few smaller forces right now. I'd love to see armies like Flesh-eaters and Daughters of Khaine etc... get a "second wave" of models to really start making them into armies rather than small force we have now. There's loads of room to add more ranged, monstrous, infantry, cavalry and other things ilke artillery and other war-engines.


I'd hate to see GW make AoS into such a huge setting that they can never find time to replace/update/add to existing forces. Since fans will eventually reach limit points on how wide (how many) armies they want and start to want to dig into those armies they collect and diversify and increase their collections of them.

 Overread wrote:

2) Soulblight/Vampire army for Death. Almost a certain thing considering how popular vampires were before and how often they appear in the stories. GW is most likely going to do the same for them that they've done for other Death armies; which is to take out the parts that are needed from the Legion of Nagash and add to them to make a new army.

As a former VC player, I'd be more excited about this if they hadn't already gimped Vampire Lords to hell. "Hey, remember how Vampire Lords used to be amongst the powerful and customisable heroes in the game? Yeah, now they're just regular wizards with a bit of melee ability. Vampire Powers? Never heard of them. Bloodlines? They don't exist either. Incredible magical power? Lol, you'll have your 1 cast per turn and like it. Incredible melee? Sorry, can't have them outshining all our special characters."

That aside, the more prominent issue I see is that Vampires were just the leaders - the actual troops still consisted of hordes of skeletons, zombies, ghouls etc.

So either they'll still be like that, in which case you're basically just playing Hosts of Nagash, or else it'll be Soulblight units only... in which case you might as well just play Soulblight.

Bloodlines do exsists, its part of the soulblight alligance ability.

As for what happens now, there are still tons of models that needs an update badly within the AoS line up. Both seraphon and skaven have a lot of finecast

terry wrote:
Bloodlines do exsists, its part of the soulblight alligance ability.

As for what happens now, there are still tons of models that needs an update badly within the AoS line up. Both seraphon and skaven have a lot of finecast

Soulblight allegiance is an under boiled mess though. No bloodline is worth what you give up compared to Legion of Blood.

A mad max style destruction subfaction would be extremely cool. Industrialised but in the bad way. It could be a little too much 40k's ork, they could go more into the industrialisation and heavy soviet machinery.

terry wrote:
Bloodlines do exsists, its part of the soulblight alligance ability.

No, you're right Bloodlines do technically exist.

I just forgot about them because they're so anaemic. Aside from being pretty insignificant in general, there are no Vampire Powers anymore so naturally none of them are locked to specific Bloodlines; nor are any of the Command Abilities or Artefacts tied to specific Bloodlines. Also, it's hard to really appreciate the lore when in place of 'Von Carsten', 'Lahmian', 'Strigoi' etc. we instead have 'Necromatic' and 'Swift Death'.

Its my personal little wish-list and has received nary a rumor or mention, but Vampire Pirates. Always loved the old White Dwarf list that required heavy kitbashing, but it was never supported after that, aside from a few miniatures that seemed like proof of concept.

The Vampire Coast DLC from Total War Warhams 2 was awesome and I loved the unit diversity. Seemed to have been well received too.

I think it would be a certified hit in miniature form.

Old school Orcs & Goblins. I know Greenskinz still have point values in the GHB'19 book. But I really wish they would have a new book, a man can only dream..

There is a greenskinz-shaped hole in the fluff too.

Honestly I can see why Greenskins got dropped. At the time GW had 3 Orruk armies which were broadly speaking the same army concept. Boar riding/charioting greenskinned apes with choppas, spears, arrows and such.

Even now the two orruk forces are mostly different based on if they wear armour or not. What they need are some new units added that really start to play to their themes without copy-catting each other.


If Greenskins were to come back they'd need a total overhaul so that they weren't just copy-catting the other orruks again .

Vampires are inevitable and will sorely test my no new army resolve.

New Destruction.concepts would be welcome.

I'd really like a High Fantasy Bretonnian revamp. Keep the Arthurian elements but dial up the AoS side through more fantastical mounts

Agreed with regard to a new Bretonnia! Especially with the sculpts they are now doing it could look utterly fantastic!

When I read Bretonnia revamp my eyes saw Bretonnian Vampires. Or would that step too much on the current Ghoul fluff?

Out side of the new high elves being awesome, I want a new vampire army too... and I want abhorash to come back to lead it, possibly as a new mortarch or possibly as a new challenger to nagash. I know i’m Digging down into the deep lore for him, but I want to see what the original blood dragon can do.

They could reposition hashut as a destruction God and bring back chaos dwarfs... destruction Dwarfs?

They were only ever notionally connected to chaos, the name notwithstanding.

They'd be your industrialization gone mad concept.

Destruction really needs a new faction. Gitz Ogors and Orruks just doesn't really cut the mustard for me. An Elf or Human or Dwarf faction would be a good addition. Ideally it would be all 3.

I would love a "Separatist" regime that despises Sigmar for abandoning the Mortal Realms in its time of greatest need but also hates Chaos for the devastation wrought on the realms. Something that isn't barbarians but has some ramshackle technology somewhere between the extremes of the Sigmarite cities, Kharadron dwarves, and Skaven "tech".

Could potentially be "just pirates" but I think a more organized, developed society whose end goal isn't just destruction for the sake of destruction, but tearing down the order, laws and edifices of Sigmar's cities in the name of freedom, justice, self-reliance, yada yada yada.

The coolest thing they could probably do for such a faction model wise would be "cavalry" type units that are a cohort of freelance knights that have stepped up to the plate, rather than Noble born or reforged or chosen by chaos or whatever, that ride on mechanical steeds ala the new Mechanicus rough riders in 40k. Or wheeled bikes. Or flying pegasi machines. Or a Lord or Lady on a big mechanical dragon. It could be like neo-brettonia. That would be amazing.

The Realm of Chamon would seem like a good place to put them. Something different from Ghur that is also a place of Sigmar's triumph, but not for the people he abandoned, but to get his stupid hammer back and then give it to some shiny boi to wack non-believers with. That kind of stuff should really chafe with the mortal inhabitants of those places. It would also help explain how they keep finding all this scrap and alchemical materials to power their machines.

But this is all just silly fan fiction. I'd probably settle for like vampires. Some dark elves. Expanding some of the other factions. Like mortal Slaanesh cultists (please GW) and more Flesh-Eaters stuff and more Cities of Sigmar/Slaves to Darkness stuff that isn't just repackaged old stuff.

Grotbag Scuttlers are almost certainly the next destruction faction afters Sons of Behemat. I expect it will be some time beyond that before Destruction gets a new army.

There is still a part of me that hopes the grotbag scuttlers will come out and include the scuttlers from silver tower in their ranks.

A vain hope? Almost definitely.

They would be great for rigging with those webs...

Some great ideas here.

Personally I'm really hoping for the Scuttlers. They're the perfect opposition for the Overlords, and they can fit the industrial aesthetic for Destruction. Love the idea of them being multi-limbed too. I'm suddenly reminded of the Fallen from Destiny; insectoid multi-limbed technology worshiping space pirates. I'm actually starting to think that Destruction needs more species under its banner. Order has Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Mutant Elves, Tree People and Lizardmen. Destruction has Orcs, Ogres, Goblins, Trolls, another kind of Goblin and Giants. There's room for more in there imo,

And in the past, I wasn't sure that humans would fit into Destruction, but then I remembered that they do make up the bulk of Chaos forces so...maybe? Maybe 'mutant' humans? Ones changed by the energies of the realms themselves rather than Chaos? I know that they're 'grandfathered in', but if I was designing this game from the ground up...the Flesheater Courts would be Destruction. With the Kings being something other than vampires and the Dragons and Bats being alive...but I digress...

Speaking of Vampires, I always hoped that GW could have built entire factions around the old fantasy bloodlines. The Flesheaters are a great example of this, built around the old Strigori bloodline. They could try the same for the Nectarchs (zombies of all sizes), Lamhmians (new Tomb Kings), Blood Dragons (small elite pure vampire army), and Von Carsteins (the 'mortal' Death units). I'm no expert on them but I'm sure something like this is doable.

Hellebore wrote:
They could reposition hashut as a destruction God and bring back chaos dwarfs... destruction Dwarfs?

They were only ever notionally connected to chaos, the name notwithstanding.

They'd be your industrialization gone mad concept.

Forge World's Legion of Azgorh is the Age of Sigmar incarnation of the old Chaos Dwarfs. I don't see them going away or changing their Grand Alliance from Chaos to Destruction.

Fimir on the other hand are already a part of the Destruction Grand Alliance...

NinthMusketeer wrote:There is a greenskinz-shaped hole in the fluff too.

Exactly. In the Orruk Warclans battle tome under "Ardboys" it does say that there are bands of ardboys that don't seek to gain approval from Ironjawz and go off on their own (i.e. Ironskullz Boy's). The lore is very lacking and they need to include Greenskinz because there never is just Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz, there's always an in-between.

Overread wrote:Honestly I can see why Greenskins got dropped. At the time GW had 3 Orruk armies which were broadly speaking the same army concept. Boar riding/charioting greenskinned apes with choppas, spears, arrows and such.

Even now the two orruk forces are mostly different based on if they wear armour or not. What they need are some new units added that really start to play to their themes without copy-catting each other.


If Greenskins were to come back they'd need a total overhaul so that they weren't just copy-catting the other orruks again .

NinthMusketeer wrote:There is a greenskinz-shaped hole in the fluff too.

I agree, but with the release of Cities of Sigmar and the revamped Slaves to Darkness. It gave me hope that Greenskinz would get the same treatment but nothing happened. A part of me is bitter about it, but another part is accepting that they could be moved to Warhammer Legends.

What I would like to see in Greenskinz (if they come back, please by Gork's tusks GW, just do it.) I would want to see a more utilitarian Orc army. Heavy use of war engines like rock lobbers and doom diver catapults. Maybe an "alliance" of Orc and Goblin. Less infantry, more calvary and war engines.

There are Skaven and Grot sky fleets in the lore - seems like fun

The more Soulblight the better in my view

Having Lahmian vampires have both living and dead troops would be wonderful

 Grensche wrote:

NinthMusketeer wrote:There is a greenskinz-shaped hole in the fluff too.

Exactly. In the Orruk Warclans battle tome under "Ardboys" it does say that there are bands of ardboys that don't seek to gain approval from Ironjawz and go off on their own (i.e. Ironskullz Boy's). The lore is very lacking and they need to include Greenskinz because there never is just Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz, there's always an in-between.

Overread wrote:Honestly I can see why Greenskins got dropped. At the time GW had 3 Orruk armies which were broadly speaking the same army concept. Boar riding/charioting greenskinned apes with choppas, spears, arrows and such.

Even now the two orruk forces are mostly different based on if they wear armour or not. What they need are some new units added that really start to play to their themes without copy-catting each other.


If Greenskins were to come back they'd need a total overhaul so that they weren't just copy-catting the other orruks again .

NinthMusketeer wrote:There is a greenskinz-shaped hole in the fluff too.

I agree, but with the release of Cities of Sigmar and the revamped Slaves to Darkness. It gave me hope that Greenskinz would get the same treatment but nothing happened. A part of me is bitter about it, but another part is accepting that they could be moved to Warhammer Legends.

What I would like to see in Greenskinz (if they come back, please by Gork's tusks GW, just do it.) I would want to see a more utilitarian Orc army. Heavy use of war engines like rock lobbers and doom diver catapults. Maybe an "alliance" of Orc and Goblin. Less infantry, more calvary and war engines.

Definitely agree about the big greenskin sized hole in the line up. I firmly believe that it's important to have a 'standard' force for every faction, so that the wackier elements have something to be compared against. Yes absolutely, the 'regular' Orcs need a reimagining but they need to be there period.

The argument about Greenskins being too similar to each other should be applied to Space Marines.

I am lucky, Orcs and Goblins are my biggest painted Warhammer army. I have a bunch of all of the units that went out of production already except the characters, and there are lots of alternatives from other companies.

But it is sad to think of the Warhammer World without my Boyz.

Da Boss - very true but Space Marines are an exception rather than the normal. Plus even within the space Marines once GW focuses on them for individual models we get some unique concepts like the Space Wolves.

I think it might be too late for that. GW seems intent on making ironjawz the default orruks.

GW will product what people buy. People definitely buy Space Marines.

 Overread wrote:
Well there's currently two confirmed near enough

Light Aelves which we've seen the photos of some miniatures already

Sons of Behamat which we've seen a few hints here and there, a shipping manifesto, a confirmation in a GW video that they exist (sorry are a myth) and rumour that they are giants.


After that there's a few that I think are almost certain to appear.

1) The Shadow Aelves - Malarion's army which are said to rule most of the Shadow Realm (Daughter's of Khain only inhabit a small corner). With draconic style leader and slaanesh saved warped aelves.

2) Soulblight/Vampire army for Death. Almost a certain thing considering how popular vampires were before and how often they appear in the stories. GW is most likely going to do the same for them that they've done for other Death armies; which is to take out the parts that are needed from the Legion of Nagash and add to them to make a new army.

3) Based on how GW does the soulbight army they might also do a Skeleton army. Now this is hard to predict because Skeletons could remain the Legion of Nagash and rise as its unique core feature; or they could be absorbed into the Vampire army or they could go it alone.
Ossiarchs are an undead construct army, but they are the "elite" of the bone constructs. I'd wager a regular skeleton themed army would be more akin to a swarm of undead units.



After those its very hard to predict anything;

a) I'd like to see Destruction get one or two more armies. By its very nature its one of the more fragmented Grand Alliances and thus could easily take on a few more armies of different and wildly varied kinds.

b) Grottbag scuttlers might appear. It's hard to say since GW generally has most races (esp grots and skaven) stealing KO airships and refitting them. It could be something GW keeps in the lore alone as a conversion idea for gamers; or one or two might make it as actual armies; its very hard to say

c) Dragons - I mean just look at how epic the setting is and how few dragons there are!! It's criminal!



Honestly I hope there aren't too many more armies. It's not that I don't think GW can't do it, but that there's a good few smaller forces right now. I'd love to see armies like Flesh-eaters and Daughters of Khaine etc... get a "second wave" of models to really start making them into armies rather than small force we have now. There's loads of room to add more ranged, monstrous, infantry, cavalry and other things ilke artillery and other war-engines.


I'd hate to see GW make AoS into such a huge setting that they can never find time to replace/update/add to existing forces. Since fans will eventually reach limit points on how wide (how many) armies they want and start to want to dig into those armies they collect and diversify and increase their collections of them.

They could choose to revamp Tomb Kings. Having an Egyptian undead aesthetic that isn't connected to Nagash could be really interesting.

They come from a hidden corner of the realms that even Nagash hasn't heard of and they could have their own Gods of undead who seek to butt in on Nagash's power. Rename them, do some up designing to AoSify them and boom, Egyptian Undead are back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
The argument about Greenskins being too similar to each other should be applied to Space Marines.

I am lucky, Orcs and Goblins are my biggest painted Warhammer army. I have a bunch of all of the units that went out of production already except the characters, and there are lots of alternatives from other companies.

But it is sad to think of the Warhammer World without my Boyz.

But the Old World is comming back, so at least you'll have that.

I'm still waiting for GW to give me Biggus Space Marines on Motorcycles, or a true dedicated melee option.

In other semi-related news, Lumineth are shaping up to be another divisive faction like Ossiarchs, where some people love them and some people hate them, due to a... unique aesthetic. Makes me curious what the plan is for Malerion Elves design.

I think any unique aesthetic will have some people who dislike it, and that is OK. Every army does not have to appeal to every player, or even look good to every player. What I do see is that there is definitely a strong market of people who like it, and that is what's important.

Oh yeah, for sure. I think that's when the artists shine best, making something with a strong design that doesn't need to make everyone happy. I know myself, I love the Lumineth and Ossiarchs look, and only have a few misgivings with the Lumienth Heros they've shown, asides from Elthariel. Though, it could also be an issue with the paint job on them. Just gotta' keep saving up for their eventual release and see how I feel with them in hand.

They could choose to revamp Tomb Kings. Having an Egyptian undead aesthetic that isn't connected to Nagash could be really interesting.

They come from a hidden corner of the realms that even Nagash hasn't heard of and they could have their own Gods of undead who seek to butt in on Nagash's power. Rename them, do some up designing to AoSify them and boom, Egyptian Undead are back.

They are still part of the lore of the Realm of Shyish

Sometimes I wonder if it was a mistake to merge the ironjawz and bone splittas. Although they’re both orcs, they are quite different. You don’t see fyrsslayers and overlords sharing a book...although then again, the differences between them are far greater. I don’t know, the lack of ‘regular’ orcs leaves a huge gap in the line up imo.

I was thinking to myself, if you had a clean slate with regards to the orcs, what would you have done? My answer is three factions; the ironjawz (leaders, super orcs, smallish army of elite armoured infantry and cavalry), the bonesplittas (horde infantry army, because not even boars are safe from their bone hunting), and the ‘lootas’ (need better name, horde cavalry army, all boar/bigger beast mounted. Lightly armoured, live to fight and steal everything not nailed down). But this is all ‘coulda woulda shoulda’ and so utterly useless in reality.

A better and more realistic idea might be to make boar mounted versions of ardboyz (‘orcy knights’) and have some sort of ardboy boss and call the ardboyz the regular orcs.

Cities of Sigmar did a lot for finding homes for many of the lost armies. It is a very well done consept.

There are some armies stil missing, or could use better support. Bretonians are no where to be seen. (They would have to be rewamped into a horse rider knight army.) Vampiers could need more support. (Mind you the Ghoul Kings are vampiers, are they not?)

Tomb Kings while teqnically in the game do need a remake. Do something to them that makes them distinct enough that GW can trademark them. Some of the kits are really good, especially everything from that last generation of models. I would love to see sphinxes on the battlefield again. It would be funn if they where a Death faction that was somehow independent from Nagash. (That might make them order? Perhaps they could be order and death, that could be funn.)

As stated destruction and death both feel light. I do think that is OK. Chaos and order are much easier to make army consepts for. It is hard to come up with destruction and undead consepts. The bone reapers where a good idea! (Well done GW.) Beastmen would have been destruction if they are not tied to chaos in the lore. Having an own giant army is cool. (Perhaps we get giants with skycannons like the ogors have?)

Controversial opinion, I think we do not need lots of new factions in the game. There are loads already. Flesh out and balance the factions that are currently in play, would be my preference.

 Da Boss wrote:
Controversial opinion, I think we do not need lots of new factions in the game. There are loads already. Flesh out and balance the factions that are currently in play, would be my preference.

I don't think that's controversial in the least. At least not for fans.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if it was a mistake to merge the ironjawz and bone splittas. Although they’re both orcs, they are quite different. You don’t see fyrsslayers and overlords sharing a book...although then again, the differences between them are far greater. I don’t know, the lack of ‘regular’ orcs leaves a huge gap in the line up imo.

I was thinking to myself, if you had a clean slate with regards to the orcs, what would you have done? My answer is three factions; the ironjawz (leaders, super orcs, smallish army of elite armoured infantry and cavalry), the bonesplittas (horde infantry army, because not even boars are safe from their bone hunting), and the ‘lootas’ (need better name, horde cavalry army, all boar/bigger beast mounted. Lightly armoured, live to fight and steal everything not nailed down). But this is all ‘coulda woulda shoulda’ and so utterly useless in reality.

A better and more realistic idea might be to make boar mounted versions of ardboyz (‘orcy knights’) and have some sort of ardboy boss and call the ardboyz the regular orcs.

They aren't merged; Bonesplittaz and Ironjawz have their own allegiances. What's merged is Great Waaagh! Which goes off the ORRUK keyword and is a mixed allegiance for all of them, Greenskinz models included. Where they to release a new faction of Orruks they could also be taken in it.

I think that idea is one that could be replicated with other factions to create new army options without sweeping new releases. An allegiance based on Duardin keyword could be very interesting with some grudge-based mechanics, for example.

I would personnaly see one last death army: a purely soulblight vampire force with Neferata as their flagship leader largely inspired and functionning like the Bretonnians so various types of vampiric knights for nice little elite army with a dark arthurian medieval feel (the Blood Grail?).

I would add an "industrial" goblin/redcap destruction faction; the Scuttlers would fit nicely the theme.

A giant themed Destruction Army would also round things up nicely for the forces of Destruction and could fit the same niche as the Imperial Knights in 40K.

I would add the shadow elves to the upcomming light elves and tighten up the Cities of Sigmar to have a proper multicultural vibe and stop looking for a depo of old, but still good miniatures.

The rest is just a question of expanding current forces and get rid of the old remains of Fantasy. There is no need for each of these models to be fully integrated with the existence of Legend.

I love the idea of the industrial goblins but that may be sailing a bit close to World Of Warcraft

I’d like a revamp of Skaven, the sculpts are so old

While I agree that most of the heroes and special units for Skaven are in need of a new plastic kit instead of metal or resin, it's not really a NEW faction

epronovost wrote:
I would personnaly see one last death army: a purely soulblight vampire force with Neferata as their flagship leader largely inspired and functionning like the Bretonnians so various types of vampiric knights for nice little elite army with a dark arthurian medieval feel (the Blood Grail?).

To be honest, I'd like to see more factions that don't have any special characters at all.

 vipoid wrote:

epronovost wrote:
I would personnaly see one last death army: a purely soulblight vampire force with Neferata as their flagship leader largely inspired and functionning like the Bretonnians so various types of vampiric knights for nice little elite army with a dark arthurian medieval feel (the Blood Grail?).

To be honest, I'd like to see more factions that don't have any special characters at all.

Is there any beside Cities of Sigmar (which are at the moment just a depo for old minis that have yet to be replaced not a proper army)? What makes you say special character are bad for an army?

epronovost wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

epronovost wrote:
I would personnaly see one last death army: a purely soulblight vampire force with Neferata as their flagship leader largely inspired and functionning like the Bretonnians so various types of vampiric knights for nice little elite army with a dark arthurian medieval feel (the Blood Grail?).

To be honest, I'd like to see more factions that don't have any special characters at all.

Is there any beside Cities of Sigmar (which are at the moment just a depo for old minis that have yet to be replaced not a proper army)? What makes you say special character are bad for an army?

Off the top of my head, Flesh Eater Courts don't have any special characters. I don't think Beasts of Chaos have any either.

In terms of why I don't like them, there are a few reasons:

1) I find many of them to be completely overdone. In WHFB, the vast majority of special characters were just regular models. Now they have to invent a contrived reason for virtually every single character to be on a massive base, usually riding some over-elaborate mount. In fact, they've come to embody two of the trends I really despise in AoS:
- Massive scale-creep.
- Bigger is better (whereas previously a Vampire Lord on a 20mm could be one of the most powerful models in the game, now a lot of abilities might as well read 'models with bases less than 50mm need not apply'.)

2) I just don't like special characters at the best of times. I want to make up my own characters, not use GW's ones. You might say 'well don't use them then', and that would be fine were it not for:

3) More importantly, a lot of them seem to have become black holes that hoover up all the good rules. As above, it used to be that special characters were just that - characters. Let me give you an example: Vlad and Mannfred were mostly just Vampire Lords built a certain way. They excelled at a couple of things (Vlad could resurrect 1/game and Mannfred had some bonus casting abilities), but other than that they really weren't all that amazing. They were fun to field in a themed-list but they didn't just outclass the regular Vampire Lords (especially since they could be tailored with gear and Vampire Powers).

But now the special characters are just outright better. It used to be that Vampire Lords could be up to Lv4 wizards, and not even Mannfred (the most casting-focussed special character) could exceed this. But now all but one special character can cast 2+ spells per turn, whilst the regular Vampire Lords are stuck at 1 with no option to upgrade that. A more minor point but Arkhan isn't even a vampire and yet he's still better at drinking blood than the actual Vampire Lords.

What I'm getting at is that in the past special characters didn't outshine generic characters of the same type, outside of maybe one specific area (and even then usually not by much). But now it seems like abilities are actually stripped away from generic characters and given to special characters to make them feel extra-super-special.

I'm sure a lot of people like that sort of thing, along with the endless scale-creep, but for me it just puts me off the game entirely.

 Da Boss wrote:
Controversial opinion, I think we do not need lots of new factions in the game. There are loads already. Flesh out and balance the factions that are currently in play, would be my preference.

If they ever balance out the factions so that there are no more meh books compared to competitive books and players aren't punished for liking a faction that has no way of really playing against the competitive books short of asking their opponent to take it easy, I'll definitely return.

 vipoid wrote:


Off the top of my head, Flesh Eater Courts don't have any special characters. I don't think Beasts of Chaos have any either.

I checked an it seems that you are correct, these two armies have no special character and neither do the Fyreslayers (though I would personnaly count Gotrek as one of theirs)

In terms of why I don't like them, there are a few reasons:

1) I find many of them to be completely overdone. In WHFB, the vast majority of special characters were just regular models. Now they have to invent a contrived reason for virtually every single character to be on a massive base, usually riding some over-elaborate mount. In fact, they've come to embody two of the trends I really despise in AoS:
- Massive scale-creep.
- Bigger is better (whereas previously a Vampire Lord on a 20mm could be one of the most powerful models in the game, now a lot of abilities might as well read 'models with bases less than 50mm need not apply'.)

I fairly certain many share this opinion though I will have to disagee. I always "disliked" the idea of special character as "just like regular army leader, but with "a fancier sword and helmet". If they are supposed to be exceptionnaly important and powerful you might as well make them look important and powerful so that even an idiot could understand what they are. Of course, this is mostly true for what I would call "faction leader" the "face" of a faction in the cosmic struggle that is supposed to be Age of Sigmar while other special character with a much more classic and subdued appearence might represent a slightly improved or different version of a normal heroic unit. I like the idea of each faction having some sort of "faction leader" that is relevent at the level of gods, demigods and cosmic monsters.

2) I just don't like special characters at the best of times. I want to make up my own characters, not use GW's ones. You might say 'well don't use them then', and that would be fine were it not for:

I agree with you on that. I never used special character in 40K or Fantasy (the fact that I played Beastmen also makes difficult since our special character models were antique and really bad looking; we need new beaslord models) though I enjoyed the presence of good special character if only to help make my own fluff and define a faction.

3) More importantly, a lot of them seem to have become black holes that hoover up all the good rules. As above, it used to be that special characters were just that - characters. Let me give you an example: Vlad and Mannfred were mostly just Vampire Lords built a certain way. They excelled at a couple of things (Vlad could resurrect 1/game and Mannfred had some bonus casting abilities), but other than that they really weren't all that amazing. They were fun to field in a themed-list but they didn't just outclass the regular Vampire Lords (especially since they could be tailored with gear and Vampire Powers).

But now the special characters are just outright better. It used to be that Vampire Lords could be up to Lv4 wizards, and not even Mannfred (the most casting-focussed special character) could exceed this. But now all but one special character can cast 2+ spells per turn, whilst the regular Vampire Lords are stuck at 1 with no option to upgrade that. A more minor point but Arkhan isn't even a vampire and yet he's still better at drinking blood than the actual Vampire Lords.

What I'm getting at is that in the past special characters didn't outshine generic characters of the same type, outside of maybe one specific area (and even then usually not by much). But now it seems like abilities are actually stripped away from generic characters and given to special characters to make them feel extra-super-special.

That I think is the result of expanding the Fantasy universe from a "world size conflict" to Age of Sigmar where the size of the conflict is cosmic between planet's worth of people and countries. The leaders and special heroes of such gigantic theatre of operation are closer to gods than anything else so it should show in their abilities. We went from Tolkien/Weiss style of heroes to Homeric ones. Just take Neferata, she used to be an ancient thing in the world of Fantasy, but since she's still alive in the Age of Sigmar, she is immeasurably older now than she was. She used to be a few thousand years old (and this was a lot), now she is virtually millions of years old. That's a lot of time to acquire an extra-fancy hat.

I'm sure a lot of people like that sort of thing, along with the endless scale-creep, but for me it just puts me off the game entirely.

To a certain point, yeah, I'm that sort of people, but like everything "scale-creep" and hornate base is better use with care and moderation. Placing every idiot of a random piece of cobblestone is very stupid too.

So, for the case of brainstorming, what are potensial new order and death armies?

So far people have mentioned:

Tomb Kings (anti nagash, egyptian or construct subtheme)

Steampunk Goblins, The Giant monster army (witch we know will be comming, but people will restate it)

What else could there be?

Frankenstein monsters
Zombies
Were wolves
Mummies (never mind, TK)
Troll Sub Faction
Fimir (one eyed orks with club tails from hero quest)
Creature from the black lagoon (or shark mutants?)
Elemental monsters (flame elementals sound very destrctive)
Haunted animated dead forests
Dragon themed army.

Don't forget Skaven and Goblin flyer based armies (both in the lore)
Vampire led mortals

I'd be interested to see a new flavor of Chaos Army with all sorts of nasty deep-sea monster mutants, unabashedly inspired by lovecraft. From what I can tell, thats one of the few major archetypes that GW hasn't done for fantasy. Only question being which God it would fall under.

 Thadin wrote:
I'd be interested to see a new flavor of Chaos Army with all sorts of nasty deep-sea monster mutants, unabashedly inspired by lovecraft. From what I can tell, thats one of the few major archetypes that GW hasn't done for fantasy. Only question being which God it would fall under.

Wouldn't such a concept step a little bit on the toes of the Idoneth Deepkin (though not necessarily all that much)?

I also see a problem with a Lovecraft inspired army in a Fantasy setting. Lovecraft works is only a thing in a universe like ours where the importance of humanity and life itself is basically null in the grand scheme of things. Lovecraft "gods" were a reflection on existential dread; the idea that being so tiny in a cosmos so huge and uncarring was the most terror gripping thing imaginable; the absolute and unavoidable realisation that all you are, love, hope, dream or could possibly do or imagine is competely and utterly pointless and useless. A Fantasy universe in which the cosmos itself revolves around human (and other mortals) conflict, hopes, dreams, loves and hatred completely undermines any Lovecraftian horrors. The monsters might be cool looking, but the Lovecraft sense of dread and horror cannot be achieved in my opinion in the Age of Sigmar universe.

Extremely well said sir.

That, and Lovecraftian horror doesn't translate well into model form. There is nothing, absolutely nothing scary about a squid with wings and humanoid body in 28mm scale. Or the mi-go.

Comsic horror in 40K is sorta splitted 3 ways.

Chaos gods that will innevedebly kill all, alongside magic tomes, cursed items and cultist.

Ctan who are star monsters we do nor understand.

Tyranids who will innevedebly kill all, do not care about humans and who we do not understand. Also tentacles. Theit cultists are just crazy and are most certanly doomed.

Out of these only Chaos exists in AoS. But Ibdp not get the cosmic horror wibe of them. They are more swords and sandal fantasy, with barberians and evil knights. Beasts of chaos might be a bit more, with evil tribes in the woods.

epronovost wrote:

I fairly certain many share this opinion though I will have to disagee. I always "disliked" the idea of special character as "just like regular army leader, but with "a fancier sword and helmet". If they are supposed to be exceptionnaly important and powerful you might as well make them look important and powerful so that even an idiot could understand what they are. Of course, this is mostly true for what I would call "faction leader" the "face" of a faction in the cosmic struggle that is supposed to be Age of Sigmar while other special character with a much more classic and subdued appearence might represent a slightly improved or different version of a normal heroic unit. I like the idea of each faction having some sort of "faction leader" that is relevent at the level of gods, demigods and cosmic monsters.

Each to their own.

Though I should say that I don't mind some special characters getting this treatment. What makes me sigh is when *every* special character in a given faction is either massive or if there's some contrived excuse to put them on big monsters.

epronovost wrote:

That I think is the result of expanding the Fantasy universe from a "world size conflict" to Age of Sigmar where the size of the conflict is cosmic between planet's worth of people and countries. The leaders and special heroes of such gigantic theatre of operation are closer to gods than anything else so it should show in their abilities. We went from Tolkien/Weiss style of heroes to Homeric ones. Just take Neferata, she used to be an ancient thing in the world of Fantasy, but since she's still alive in the Age of Sigmar, she is immeasurably older now than she was. She used to be a few thousand years old (and this was a lot), now she is virtually millions of years old. That's a lot of time to acquire an extra-fancy hat.

To be honest, I think this is one of the things that just turns me off the setting. It seems like moving into the whole Dragonball Z thing where half the characters can casually destroy entire planets - and at that point you have to wonder what they even need armies for.

 Niiai wrote:
So, for the case of brainstorming, what are potensial new order and death armies?

...

Were wolves

I'd certainly love to see some nice, infantry-sized werewolf models. As it stands, all the ones I've seen are either 'nicely detailed but massive' or 'small but atrociously detailed/proportioned'.

Though this is GW we're talking about so I imagine the 'were' aspect would be lost on them and we'd instead get werewolves the size and shape of Mountain Giants.


Anyway, much as I'd like to see werewolves, I do have to wonder whether they'd actually have a niche. From a gameplay perspective, it seems like they wouldn't really be much different from Ghoul Kings - regenerating models with lots of claw attacks. I get that the flavour is different and that you could probably mix up the rules a little, but I'm still wondering whether there would be enough difference to actually warrant making a whole new faction.

The other aspect is that, much as I like werewolves, I'm not sure I'd want an army of them. Back in WHFB I'd have loved to see werewolves added to the Vampire Counts book - but as a small part of a big whole. This is something I think GW has missed by trying to split most of the old factions based on keywords (so Ghouls are now separate from Vampires who are separate from Spirits etc.). I'd have loved to have had an army led by a Werewolf Lord and his pack of werewolves but I wouldn't have wanted the entire army to be nothing but werewolves. I'd still have wanted to include other stuff - whether other infantry skeletons/zombies/ghouls or larger stuff like Terrorgheists.

I mean, I'd love werewolves army. It's one classic monster that has been woefully underserved by GW.

Cronch wrote:
I mean, I'd love werewolves army. It's one classic monster that has been woefully underserved by GW.

Out of interest, would you want a fully-werewolf army or would you want to see other stuff like werebears as well?

I wouldn't mind werebears etc, as long as they're not just another brand of chaos. An army of werebears would be just as fine (though I feel werebears are a bit too close to just bears standing on hindlegs in terms of looks?)

Cronch wrote:
I wouldn't mind werebears etc, as long as they're not just another brand of chaos.

I'd certainly hope not.

Cronch wrote:
An army of werebears would be just as fine (though I feel werebears are a bit too close to just bears standing on hindlegs in terms of looks?)

I was more thinking of a were-army, with werewolves, werebears, wererats, werebats etc. filling different roles (and to make it a little less monotone).

However, your point about werebears being difficult to visually differentiate from bears on their hind legs is fair. And now that I think about it, wererats would probably be too close to Skaven and werebats too close to vargheists (or whatever they're called now).

Yeah, maybe just stick with the werewolves.

Or why not a druid/shaman style army? Units that are Ursans (werebears) and all the different types, wolves, bats, birds, etc... WOuld fit as a destruction army (they are all about nature and having nature reclaim the land and fix the magic, etc..)

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or why not a druid/shaman style army? Units that are Ursans (werebears) and all the different types, wolves, bats, birds, etc... WOuld fit as a destruction army (they are all about nature and having nature reclaim the land and fix the magic, etc..)

Personally l prefer the more gothic/horror werewolf theme (so I'd much prefer to see them under the same banner as vampires, zombies etc.), but a druid theme could certainly work.

That said, wouldn't a druid/shaman army be more suited to Order - alongside Sylvaneth and whatever is left of Wood Elves?

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or why not a druid/shaman style army? Units that are Ursans (werebears) and all the different types, wolves, bats, birds, etc... WOuld fit as a destruction army (they are all about nature and having nature reclaim the land and fix the magic, etc..)

Personally l prefer the more gothic/horror werewolf theme (so I'd much prefer to see them under the same banner as vampires, zombies etc.), but a druid theme could certainly work.

That said, wouldn't a druid/shaman army be more suited to Order - alongside Sylvaneth and whatever is left of Wood Elves?

Honestly it could go anyway, as there are lots of lore for shamans with cult like groups, even some that are cannibals, with blood sacrifices, etc..

I would LOVE a vampire army back for AoS (A true vampire army) as well, so if we need to we could just make them part of vampires. Tho with the new goblin models, and Deepkin, etc.. (their new art styles) i think a destruction style shaman esk sstyle army would be right up GW's ally.

I would rather see them in Destruction, we need something, anything to make it not ork-only club (with ogres kinda duct-taped on) and an army all about hunting packs, like fantasy tyranids (but with personality) would be a good starting point.

Cronch wrote:
I would rather see them in Destruction, we need something, anything to make it not ork-only club (with ogres kinda duct-taped on) and an army all about hunting packs, like fantasy tyranids (but with personality) would be a good starting point.

The upcoming Sons of Behemat should be in the Destruction Grand Alliance.

I'd love a were-army in destruction with a focus on humanoids, were creatures and creatures of the forests. I was always sad that Wood Elves never really used anything but eagles and the odd stag and you had to way WAY back to find the wild-cats (as in rouge trader back).

Kurnothi might take that pathway, but then again I'm still of the opinion that Warcry Warbands are NOT predictors for armies.

vipoid wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I mean, I'd love werewolves army. It's one classic monster that has been woefully underserved by GW.

Out of interest, would you want a fully-werewolf army or would you want to see other stuff like werebears as well?

Speaking of werebears...

 Overread wrote:
I'd love a were-army in destruction with a focus on humanoids, were creatures and creatures of the forests. I was always sad that Wood Elves never really used anything but eagles and the odd stag and you had to way WAY back to find the wild-cats (as in rouge trader back).

It wasn't until Araloth that we even saw hunting hawks again, and that was a herald of the fact that they were cutting the "forest spirits" element out of the Wood Elves into Sylvaneth.

Kurnothi might take that pathway, but then again I'm still of the opinion that Warcry Warbands are NOT predictors for armies.

I wouldn't look for anything too 'natural' in Kurnothi(who aren't available in Warcry, btw, but are in Underworlds) when they finally do hit. The intention seems to be adding a non-treant element to the Sylvaneth down the road.

If there is to be were-wolves, why not put them as a new unit in Beast of Chaos. They would fit nicely in company of other beastmen. I wouldn't do the others (except perhapse were-bear or were-tiger) if only because were-rats are basically Skaven, were-crocodile are Seraphon, were-eagle are harpies.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or why not a druid/shaman style army? Units that are Ursans (werebears) and all the different types, wolves, bats, birds, etc... WOuld fit as a destruction army (they are all about nature and having nature reclaim the land and fix the magic, etc..)

I'd put them into Sylvaneth. No need to have multiple nature armies.

 Ghaz wrote:

vipoid wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I mean, I'd love werewolves army. It's one classic monster that has been woefully underserved by GW.

Out of interest, would you want a fully-werewolf army or would you want to see other stuff like werebears as well?

Speaking of werebears...

GW should totally look back to the old dogs of war for inspiration these days. Personally I think the Greco-Roman or Spanish Conquistador style pikemen suit aos better than the empire range.

Also correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t there a ‘beast elves’ faction in Underworlds?

You're thinking of Saketh's Wild Hunt? They're Kurnothi - fae folk, but not specifically elven. It's a lion, a few satyrs and a centaur.

Werewolves in Warhammer are a Chaos thing--Skin Wolves. They actually had FW minis, and a number of unit options in Total War. Doubt that will change.

pm713 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or why not a druid/shaman style army? Units that are Ursans (werebears) and all the different types, wolves, bats, birds, etc... WOuld fit as a destruction army (they are all about nature and having nature reclaim the land and fix the magic, etc..)

I'd put them into Sylvaneth. No need to have multiple nature armies.

But thats not the same thing at all....

 joewarhost wrote:
You're thinking of Saketh's Wild Hunt? They're Kurnothi - fae folk, but not specifically elven. It's a lion, a few satyrs and a centaur.

Skaeth's Wild Hunt is an unknown quantity. All we know at this point is that they're called the Kurnothi and they're aligned with the Sylvaneth, since Alarielle has Kurnoth's spear.

 joewarhost wrote:
You're thinking of Saketh's Wild Hunt? They're Kurnothi - fae folk, but not specifically elven. It's a lion, a few satyrs and a centaur.

That’s the one, yes. I know very little of them but I like the look of them. Even if they couldn’t be fleshed out into a stand alone faction they would make an interesting way to expand the Sylvaneth. I think there’s enough order factions atm anyway...

1) Greco-Roman style.order humans from Azyr, to.give the stormcast cultural context.

2)Destruction humans

3)Fimir!

4)Serpentmen of slaanesh (along with Slaanesh humans)

5)If no serpent men ofbslaanesh proper, I would still love to see a take on chaos lizardmen. The don't necessarily have to be fallen members of the seraphon, though it.would be pretty.cool if they were.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or why not a druid/shaman style army? Units that are Ursans (werebears) and all the different types, wolves, bats, birds, etc... WOuld fit as a destruction army (they are all about nature and having nature reclaim the land and fix the magic, etc..)

I'd put them into Sylvaneth. No need to have multiple nature armies.

But thats not the same thing at all....

An army of people who turn into beasts of various kinds and an army of elf trees aren't similar? I know Sylvaneth aren't meant to be elves any more but that doesn't fly when they're lead by someone who is mainly elven.

Problem is that Alarielle isn't an elf.

She's a goddess. The Sylvaneth are made in the image she chose to make them, with only the Tree-Revenants taking a form similar to the "guardians of old"(read: Elves).

 Kanluwen wrote:
Problem is that Alarielle isn't an elf.

She's a goddess. The Sylvaneth are made in the image she chose to make them, with only the Tree-Revenants taking a form similar to the "guardians of old"(read: Elves).

She's an ELF goddess though. Look at her, she's very clearly more elf than tree person. You could tell me she's an elf with a magic prosthetic and magic flying and I wouldn't question it for a second. Tree people are ruled by an elf for some reason.

Read the lore and find out.

It's explained fairly well.

pm713 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Or why not a druid/shaman style army? Units that are Ursans (werebears) and all the different types, wolves, bats, birds, etc... WOuld fit as a destruction army (they are all about nature and having nature reclaim the land and fix the magic, etc..)

I'd put them into Sylvaneth. No need to have multiple nature armies.

But thats not the same thing at all....

An army of people who turn into beasts of various kinds and an army of elf trees aren't similar? I know Sylvaneth aren't meant to be elves any more but that doesn't fly when they're lead by someone who is mainly elven.

But they are not tree's tho..... do you know shaman/were lore at all? A shaman is not a tree at all, but a someone that can control spirits and channel their essence into them to use their power and turning into that spirit. The mostly control animals, but also demons, other people, etc... There is no ents or elves.

pm713 wrote:
Tree people are ruled by an elf for some reason.

Because most tree people used to be elves or were a product of elven magic? It makes sense to me.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the lore and find out.

It's explained fairly well.

Yeah, they flesh things out and fully explain that whole bit in the fluff.

epronovost wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Tree people are ruled by an elf for some reason.

Because most tree people used to be elves or were a product of elven magic? It makes sense to me.

Ehhh...not really.

The Tree Revenants are literally the only ones where that might be the case, with some wiggle room thanks to Alarielle having used potential "soulstuff" from Slaanesh.
Dryads("the Forest Folk"), Treelords, and the like are sentient entities that existed independent of Alarielle.

They are not at all independent; the first Sylvaneth grew from seeds Alarriele saved from the Old World, and were specifically tended by her. The battletome explicitly states as such.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
They are not at all independent; the first Sylvaneth grew from seeds Alarriele saved from the Old World, and were specifically tended by her. The battletome explicitly states as such.

Yeah, and the seeds are from Athel Loren where the forest folk existed long before the Elves.

Admittedly, some of this requires you to know the lore of the Wood Elves and the stuff out of the Orion trilogy from Darius Hinks but the long and short of it is that the forest spirits were there before the Elves and didn't require the Elves to exist. It was a big plot hook for Drycha when she first got introduced that her and her master are so vindictive towards the Wood Elves.

Alarielle saved the seeds, planted them, cared for them. They are not independent. This is not Athel Loren.

There's Grungi's Dwarfs (Dispossessed), there's Grimnir's Dwarfs (Fyreslayers) so that just leaves Valaya - Light Dwarfs? Point is, more Dawi is never a bad thing. It figures that Legion of Azgorath will go the way of the dodo eventually, so seeing plastic Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't go amiss.

Soulblight has already been mentioned. They could tick the boxes of a Bretonnian-esq army, focusing on heavy cavalry/armoured knights supported by weak throngs of peasants/blood-thralls.

I hope that going forward Cities of Sigmar becomes the foundation for merely updating Free Guilds rather than trying to spin them off in new, weird, OTT ways that would go against the theme of the Free Guilds in particular being normal, moderately equipped guys, but that seems unlikely.

Never said it was Athel Loren. Simply stated that the Forest Folk(Dryads) and Treelords are independent of Alarielle and existed before the Elves did. That Alarielle brought them back via seeds does not change the initial conditions of things, given that the seeds are specifically called out as relics of the World that Was. It wasn't "elf magic" that brought them into being or suddenly made the trees start acting like they think they are people.

Maybe we're just talking past each other right now, or maybe we're viewing the lore through two different lenses.

The soul amphorae are not really described in much detail. Just because Alarielle took spirits of the old-world treefolk doesn't mean they didn't get turned into something else in the meantime while under her direct power. Just like all those elf souls gutpumped from Slaanesh aren't what they started out being. AoS lore describes all the tree spirits as being almost extension of Alariell's will, incredibly attuned to her whims and moods. What they were prior is irrelevant, just like we don't know if idoneth souls used by Teclis were initially high elf, dark elf, or sea elf , or wood elf.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Never said it was Athel Loren. Simply stated that the Forest Folk(Dryads) and Treelords are independent of Alarielle and existed before the Elves did. That Alarielle brought them back via seeds does not change the initial conditions of things, given that the seeds are specifically called out as relics of the World that Was. It wasn't "elf magic" that brought them into being or suddenly made the trees start acting like they think they are people.

Maybe we're just talking past each other right now, or maybe we're viewing the lore through two different lenses.

You don't need to have created something to be it's deity. You technically live under the dominion of Zeus, but he sure as gak didn't create humans; he actually tried to kill us all at first. To be a God you only need to rule those things. Alarielle is the caretaker and protector of the "tree folks"; without her they would have never been reborn. Without her, they would all be destroyed by the forces of Chaos, thus she's their goddess.

It is like saying if a farmer plants a field that crop is independent of the farmer just because that plant species existed before he did. That does not make any sense to me.

Reread what I initially replied to and it might make more sense.

I specifically called out Tree-Revenants(which Alarielle actually created) as being an iffy category here, and went on to say that things like Dryads and Treelords existed before.

To use your example, it would be like saying that the farmer was responsible for creating the strain of whatever he grew even though it was a naturally occurring plant with no modifications or anything of that nature. The farmer seeded the field and the crop grew--but the plants could potentially have grown without the farmer if the seeds had been dropped by birds or the like.

Nowhere am I saying that "Sylvaneth wouldn't exist now if Alarielle wasn't involved" because that's what happened. I'm saying that it was not "elf magic" that created the Forest Folk and Treelords in the first place.

Edit note:
Sorry if it seems like I'm being aggressive or the like. Read this in a conversational tone rather than the "SHOUTY ANGRYFACE!" that people always seem to think I post in!

Did not seem aggressive to me but I appreciate the clarification regardless.

Anyways, they may have existed in the Old World but this is Age of Sigmar. The original question was in regards to why Alarielle is their God without being a tree-person herself. The fact is in AoS if Alarielle did not exist neither would Sylvaneth. In AoS their existence is very much dependent on her. If the question was Sylvaneth existing in Warhammer the answer would be different as you have detailed quite well.

But to steer things back to new factions; Kurnoth seems to be dead-ish at the moment but it would be interesting to see him come back and be like 'nah I don't care about any of y'all I'm gunna fist-bump my new bud Gork (or possibly Mork) and destroy all dis cuz the 'Realms'd be betta off without civilization!'

I feel like the different factions and the way GW have set them out are very limiting in new factions. I'd love a Death army that doesn't follow Nagash but is still sane. Ruled by Settra. Or just Settra. Basically I just want Settra.

Worth mentioning that Kurnoth isn't about "tearing down civilization" or stuff like that. He's about the joy of the hunt and wild spaces and the preservation of the natural order.

Guy had a 'hunting preserve' as well in the form of Kurnotheal.

pm713 wrote:
I feel like the different factions and the way GW have set them out are very limiting in new factions. I'd love a Death army that doesn't follow Nagash but is still sane. Ruled by Settra. Or just Settra. Basically I just want Settra.

That would be pretty dam sweet TBH. I'd love the inevitable meetup with Stormcast too:

"Hey nu-Settra, you hate Nagash, we're at war with Nagash, would you like to team up as part of Sigmar's pantheo-"

"NUSETTRA DOES NOT SERVE!" *stab*

pm713 wrote:
I feel like the different factions and the way GW have set them out are very limiting in new factions. I'd love a Death army that doesn't follow Nagash but is still sane. Ruled by Settra. Or just Settra. Basically I just want Settra.

I much preferred the old format, tbh. The current one is far too keyword-oriented for my tastes.

pm713 wrote:
I feel like the different factions and the way GW have set them out are very limiting in new factions. I'd love a Death army that doesn't follow Nagash but is still sane. Ruled by Settra. Or just Settra. Basically I just want Settra.

Technically Flesh Eaters don't follow Nagash - they are utterly insane. He mostly just uses some tricks to point them roughly in the direction he wants and crosses his fingers that they go that way.
Meanwhile many of the vampires would happily break free and away from Nagash if they could.
Even the Ossiarchs - his perfectly custom crafted army - retain individuality. His control over them is greater than some other armies, but he can't be all places at once.


That said I do get your meaning and there are many Inferno stories and even Ghoul Slayer (Gotrek) which show whole races in the Underworld who are not following Nagash. That said, at present, the only underworld that doesn't seem to have any chance of losing to him is the Skaven one - all the others appear to have either fallen already or are well versed in their own inevitable loss to his vast legions.

Would it be possible for Tomb Kings to be both a Death and and Order army? Or would that be far to weard regarding the rules?

 Niiai wrote:
Would it be possible for Tomb Kings to be both a Death and and Order army? Or would that be far to weard regarding the rules?

We are extremely unlikely to ever see anything like Tomb Kings again. They were, if memory serves me right, the least popular army of Warhammer Fantasy. With some luck, Khalida and Settra will make a return in some way, but it's unlikely both from a commercial and storytelling perspective. Nagash wouldn't have saved undeads opposed to him and Sigmar was unlikely to rescue undeads himself, especially not one like Settra whose "do-goodness" credential are atrocious.

 Niiai wrote:
Would it be possible for Tomb Kings to be both a Death and and Order army? Or would that be far to weird regarding the rules?

Quite the opposite; units with more than one Grand Alliance keyword would not generate any mechanical issues. This is because the only allegiances they could make it into by default wound be the Grand Alliance ones, which are deliberately low-potency to compensate for being able to mix & match from a massive roster. It would really just be a matter of fluff.


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 vipoid wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I feel like the different factions and the way GW have set them out are very limiting in new factions. I'd love a Death army that doesn't follow Nagash but is still sane. Ruled by Settra. Or just Settra. Basically I just want Settra.

I much preferred the old format, tbh. The current one is far too keyword-oriented for my tastes.

I have found Everchosen shows that GW is willing to give us more wiggle room with demi-allegiances that may not have their own battletome but are still usable as armies. For example an army of mixed Chaos Daemons (like the old Army Book from WHFB) is viable now, if not strong*.

*Technically it can be min-maxed to produce an overpowered list, but that is because Pink Horrors are currently broken rather than the allegiance.

I fully expect to see, at some stage, armies that either cross two Grand Alliances or those which are outside of the GA structure.


It should be noted that lore wise we already have orruks, goblins and ogors living side by side within various Order settlements. Just like they also live alongside the Undead.

Plus whilst chaos stands alone for the most part; all those "wild peoples" who aren't quite chaos but are - they can all intermingle with the other factions.


So story wise GW doesn't need to create bridge factions, the factions already bridge between each other really well in the stories.



As noted, armies already have limits on what allies they can have; so having an army in two Grand Alliances might not be all that broken as within each of the Grand Alliances it might only be possible for it to ally to one or two factions.

Sons of Behemat are potentially the first 'cross alliance' setups. The Oakenbrow Glade welcomed them after Behemat was slain, and they live in their area.

 Overread wrote:
I fully expect to see, at some stage, armies that either cross two Grand Alliances or those which are outside of the GA structure.


It should be noted that lore wise we already have orruks, goblins and ogors living side by side within various Order settlements. Just like they also live alongside the Undead.

They do? Where is that mentioned, I need to go read it.

epronovost wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Would it be possible for Tomb Kings to be both a Death and and Order army? Or would that be far to weard regarding the rules?

We are extremely unlikely to ever see anything like Tomb Kings again. They were, if memory serves me right, the least popular army of Warhammer Fantasy. With some luck, Khalida and Settra will make a return in some way, but it's unlikely both from a commercial and storytelling perspective. Nagash wouldn't have saved undeads opposed to him and Sigmar was unlikely to rescue undeads himself, especially not one like Settra whose "do-goodness" credential are atrocious.

Yeah I know. A lot of their fluff has been cut and put in other armies. Ghoul Kings do not know they are undead. TK used to have the same thing (in some cases.) Carving out huge stone statues or bone statues and enclose souls into it, Bone Reapers have that. (Also, bone reapers look a lot like TK. They even have the sould screaming catapult.)

What I have not seen copied though is the TK playstyle. They waried a bit through the editions. In one TK could have several combat phases. (Witch some units can do now I belive in some armies.) Also they had a lot of units that where good on a charge (chariots.) Minor resurection, and deepstrikes in ambushes from the sand. If you wanted to, you could make something like TK it is possible. They are in the fluff of the realm of light I think, but they are not entioned a lot after that.

If GW wants to make TK come back they would have to do it with a nice bow and make them be distink. Like you see how fire dwarfs and flying dwarfs are different then generic dwarfs. You would need something different then egyptian undead. Settra was stil around by the end times, so you have a figurehead for the faction. Having them be anti nagash is a nice tagline as well. I could see New TK could be written into the fluff. Perhaps Sigmar made a secret pact with Settra in case Nagash betrayed him? Perhaps Settra could be a minor deuty. I do not know what happened with the Egyptian gods by the endtimes. It would be a very funn senario. But as stated GW would need to find a good theme for them. Turn that sand button to eleven.

But all of this has been said before. I think the fact that tomb kings had horrible saves, could not charge, had a ton of exstra rules that where bad (hieorphant, need to spend magic poits to be abel to march etc.) often had bad attacks and all in all where a hard army to play was what made them unpopular. A lot of people liked seeing them on the table, just not play them.

 Niiai wrote:
I do not know what happened with the Egyptian gods by the endtimes.

I believed they were consummed to fuel Nagash rise to godhood. In other words, Nagash is "the Egyptian god" and he does still rock and Egyptian-ish look so to the Ossiarch up to a certain point.

In the end times one of the first things Nagash did after coming back was hit up the TK underworld to nom those gods; morghasts were originally from there.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I fully expect to see, at some stage, armies that either cross two Grand Alliances or those which are outside of the GA structure.


It should be noted that lore wise we already have orruks, goblins and ogors living side by side within various Order settlements. Just like they also live alongside the Undead.

They do? Where is that mentioned, I need to go read it.

In most stories that involve the land of the dead its oft said that its a realm where the living and the dead live side by side. Of course major settlements like Sigmar's Cities its mostly the living and you won't get a Flesh Eater walking down the street to pop into the local shops. But the dead are everywhere. In Realmslayer Gotrek and co visit a small settlement where the living and the dead co-habit - though that story focuses a touch more on the dead side of it.

Meanwhile for Orruks and the like living within settlements its in one of the Inferno stories - I forget which one, but its a deepkin story and I think its the most recent Inferno.
Don't forget Orruks and the like (ergo Destruction, or at least the bulk of it) was part of the Pantheon. It was part of the Grand Alliance of nations and peoples that rose up during the Age of Myth. It only fragmented off because their gods and peoples clash culturally with Sigmar's vision of neat ordered cities and civilisation. Orruks don't want to settle down with the cheese trolley, a good book and a fine wine next to a roaring fire on an evening. Their cultures are nomadic by nature at large and many might even feel uncomfortable not roaming; raiding; fighting and more.

I believe the idoneth story is the Sea Taketh. It has orruk and ogor mercs and an ogor businesswoman/mobster if i recall.

The stories make a much better job characterizing the factions than the one-note battletomes do tbh.

Cronch wrote:
I believe the idoneth story is the Sea Taketh. It has orruk and ogor mercs and an ogor businesswoman/mobster if i recall.

The stories make a much better job characterizing the factions than the one-note battletomes do tbh.

Is it worth reading just for the Idoneth part? I'm interested in Idoneth but most factions in AoS aren't interesting to me at all.

The idoneth are the opponents in this one, there's like...two pages of them in it. It's all about a kharadron diver.

Cronch wrote:
The idoneth are the opponents in this one, there's like...two pages of them in it. It's all about a kharadron diver.

That's a shame. But I do like Kharadrons so I might get it if it's cheap somewhere.

pm713 wrote:

Cronch wrote:
The idoneth are the opponents in this one, there's like...two pages of them in it. It's all about a kharadron diver.

That's a shame. But I do like Kharadrons so I might get it if it's cheap somewhere.

It's in the "Myths and Revenants" collection.

There are two short stories featuring the Idoneth in one form or another there. The aforementioned "The Sea Taketh" and the fantastic novella called "The Learning". Both are by David Guymer.

Ahh I mixed up Myths and Revenants with Inferno.

Honestly the short story collections are well worth getting. Whilst you don't get as epic a novel, you do get a lot of varied stories which can often give you some really nice flavours and unique views on a lot of different factions. Great for getting a general feel of the lore - esp once you're familiar with the base setting and can dart a glance at the GW store to tell you what some named things look like.

Regarding the werewolves Forge World did have some wherewolfs. They grew out of their human skinn and then they change back the day after and then the cycles continued. While hard to see, there are pieces of streched skin on these models.

The idea was that it was a Tzeentch curse.

They were called "Skinwolves", and they were more mutant than 'werewolf'.

 Overread wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I fully expect to see, at some stage, armies that either cross two Grand Alliances or those which are outside of the GA structure.


It should be noted that lore wise we already have orruks, goblins and ogors living side by side within various Order settlements. Just like they also live alongside the Undead.

They do? Where is that mentioned, I need to go read it.

In most stories that involve the land of the dead its oft said that its a realm where the living and the dead live side by side. Of course major settlements like Sigmar's Cities its mostly the living and you won't get a Flesh Eater walking down the street to pop into the local shops. But the dead are everywhere. In Realmslayer Gotrek and co visit a small settlement where the living and the dead co-habit - though that story focuses a touch more on the dead side of it.

Meanwhile for Orruks and the like living within settlements its in one of the Inferno stories - I forget which one, but its a deepkin story and I think its the most recent Inferno.
Don't forget Orruks and the like (ergo Destruction, or at least the bulk of it) was part of the Pantheon. It was part of the Grand Alliance of nations and peoples that rose up during the Age of Myth. It only fragmented off because their gods and peoples clash culturally with Sigmar's vision of neat ordered cities and civilisation. Orruks don't want to settle down with the cheese trolley, a good book and a fine wine next to a roaring fire on an evening. Their cultures are nomadic by nature at large and many might even feel uncomfortable not roaming; raiding; fighting and more.

Oh that one, I misinterpreted your initial comment. Thank you though.


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 Kanluwen wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Cronch wrote:
The idoneth are the opponents in this one, there's like...two pages of them in it. It's all about a kharadron diver.

That's a shame. But I do like Kharadrons so I might get it if it's cheap somewhere.

It's in the "Myths and Revenants" collection.

There are two short stories featuring the Idoneth in one form or another there. The aforementioned "The Sea Taketh" and the fantastic novella called "The Learning". Both are by David Guymer.

Yeah both really good.