I know over the years there's been a fair share of these sorts of threads. Really this post is more just a bit of therapeutic outlet from someone who's getting a bit cranky in the lockdown, but still, it's something that down get me down from time to time.

I'll admit it, I'm a sucker for the Guard FW models, mostly for design over actual practicality, especially the ridiculousness of them (I'm looking at you Malcador tank.) So far, I have a handful of Cyclops demo vehicles built and have a Valdor tank hunter waiting in the wings for when I feel my painting skills have advanced enough to do it justice.

So, having started to wean myself out of the beginner sessions I've started playing matches at my local GW store (which shall go unnamed) against a more seasoned crowd. Losing consistently, but that's all in the learning. The last time I was in-store, I was talking to a member of staff about a potential list which included my Cyclops, and he explained in no uncertain terms that the shop did not approve of the use of FW models, on the dual grounds of:

1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky.

Now I have been told not to play FW before there, though specifically that was in the context of beginner games, and I had assumed that it would be okay once I was playing outside of that, but apparently that's not the case. To be honest, it doesn't make me angry, but it's disheartening. I'm not inclined to build what I have paid good money for as I can't use it, and on the other end it's making me consider finding somewhere else where using my models would be fine. The issue with the latter is that I've put my roots down at the GW store and have met a bunch of really great people, and the staff also are generally really decent folk.

Rant over.

Are GW stores actually allowed (relatively speaking) to ban FW? Since it's a GW product? I mean if they were to do it, would that be something that you could phone corporate about and let them know the store is doing it? Otherwise, there's not much you can do, as stupid as it is nowadays.

Wayniac wrote:
Are GW stores actually allowed (relatively speaking) to ban FW?

Yes - it's up to the manager if they allow FW (or Specialist Games) in-store. IIRC if it's on the shelves they have to allow it (so AoS & 40k, Kill Team & LOTR after a major release, etc.), but everything else is manager's discretion.

That's really dumb. Honestly, I'd contact GW customer support and tell them about it, I dont think theyd be happy with managers discouraging FW.

You can order FW for store pickup, so by the logic of this manager they should also ban all direct order kits (half the Tyranid range for example!) because they "can't buy them in store". What a moron!

Wayniac wrote:
Are GW stores actually allowed (relatively speaking) to ban FW? Since it's a GW product? I mean if they were to do it, would that be something that you could phone corporate about and let them know the store is doing it? Otherwise, there's not much you can do, as stupid as it is nowadays.

I've got no idea about the intricacies about what the FW-GW relationship is exactly, as it seems to me that GW are deliberately obscure about it. The people at the store word it that they are 'sister companies', but if the money is going into the same account at the end of the day, what does it matter?

As far as I have looked around, there was somebody who did manage to get a response out of GW, the results of which are here but that doesn't really give any information that we don't already know.

How the stores run, is in part dictated by the manager.

The main store I play at is a Warhammer store, and no one bats an eye at forgeworld. One of the local players has a Death Korps of Krieg army (converted from Age of Sigmar Ghouls), and the manager himself is working on a 30k army.

Perhaps the manager is hesitant with folks bringing in models you can't get at the shop, as that could be hard for beginners, due to how FW rules and models have a more 'exclusive' feel to them. But, if your opponent has no issue with it, I don't see why it'd be a problem.

Based on my experience, I think your stores FW policy is in the minority.

jaredb wrote:


Perhaps the manager is hesitant with folks bringing in models you can't get at the shop, as that could be hard for beginners, due to how FW rules and models have a more 'exclusive' feel to them. But, if your opponent has no issue with it, I don't see why it'd be a problem.

As I say though, half the plastic GW range isnt available in store either so that logic makes zero sense.

 Stux wrote:

jaredb wrote:


Perhaps the manager is hesitant with folks bringing in models you can't get at the shop, as that could be hard for beginners, due to how FW rules and models have a more 'exclusive' feel to them. But, if your opponent has no issue with it, I don't see why it'd be a problem.

As I say though, half the plastic GW range isnt available in store either so that logic makes zero sense.

Forge world units are not in the codex, and webstore kits can be ordered to the store quickly for free shipping. I understand you point, but there is a difference between the accessibility of the units/rules.

When able, try to find another place to play that welcomes FW and split your time between each place as you desire. You should be able to play with your favorite models, but not throw away your relationships with people at the store.

Or you could always try the bridge burning approach and sit in store, on your phone and order your next FW model (having it delivered to the store for pickup)

Uk store managers are normally more open to things.

I can appreciate that pick-up games with random people at the store might well have a "no FW policy". However if you and a friend are playing at the store then surely if you both agree to it you should be allowed to use a FW model in your game.


The only downside for the GW store manager is that FW models can't be ordered in sort so the FW models, even if delivered to the store, don't count toward his/her sales targets (at least far as I'm aware).



FW is generally far more accepted today than in the past and FW is releasing new rules at some point very soon (likely held up only by the lockdown).



I'd say it might be worth sitting down and having an honest discussion with the store manager about relaxing some aspects of the policy. If that fails consider contacting GW central with a polite email expressing your concern and considerations and asking if they might perchance step in. You can even raise the issue of FW models counting toward managers sales when products are shipped to their store - thus showing that you understand and appreciate that the manager also has sales targets to meet and that if gamers are buying FW they aren't helping the manger even though its the same company.

 jaredb wrote:

 Stux wrote:

jaredb wrote:


Perhaps the manager is hesitant with folks bringing in models you can't get at the shop, as that could be hard for beginners, due to how FW rules and models have a more 'exclusive' feel to them. But, if your opponent has no issue with it, I don't see why it'd be a problem.

As I say though, half the plastic GW range isnt available in store either so that logic makes zero sense.

Forge world units are not in the codex, and webstore kits can be ordered to the store quickly for free shipping. I understand you point, but there is a difference between the accessibility of the units/rules.

Forgeworld kits can be ordered for store pickup too (at least in the UK where the OP is based), exactly the same as the direct order GW kits. There's no accessibility difference for the models compared to direct order GW kits.

Rules arent available in store yes, but they can be ordered for store pickup.

 Stux wrote:

Forgeworld kits can be ordered for store pickup too (at least in the UK where the OP is based), exactly the same as the direct order GW kits. There's no accessibility difference for the models compared to direct order GW kits.

Rules arent available in store yes, but they can be ordered for store pickup.

You can order for store pick-up but you can't order them from inside the store itself using the store computer nor have the staff member place an order. So any FW purchases don't go toward the stores sales targets nor any promotions etc... (eg say the store birthday purchase quotas for freebies)

So you have to order it yourself from the FW website on your own connection (eg phone or home computer). I believe its due to laws which mean if the store officially sold them in some capacity, GW would be required to make that feature open for all their 3rd party supplied stores as well and FW hasn't got the manufacturing capacity to support that kind of sales approach for their reisn models. At least that's the argument I recall reading a while back.

While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

 Stux wrote:
While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

Why?

If they standardise it that FW isn't allowed, it just create bad feels in stores where store managers did previously allow it.

Seems like GW is a lot more lenient with this than .... say .... Taco Bell disallowing you to order a Pizza Hut pizza to their restaurant or whatever.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:
While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

Why?

If they standardise it that FW isn't allowed, it just create bad feels in stores where store managers did previously allow it.

Seems like GW is a lot more lenient with this than .... say .... Taco Bell disallowing you to order a Pizza Hut pizza to their restaurant or whatever.

Massive false equivalence there! FW is made by GW. It's literally the same company.

Also, I'm very much of the view that all stores should allow it - and that this should be mandated by head office. The idea that you can buy an official, premium priced product for a game made by the same company and then be told you arent allowed to use it in the stores operated by that same company that are setup specifically to allow the playing of that self same game is so ridiculous I'm struggling not to use expletives.

The fact that the head office structures how it reviews the performance of its stores in such a way that disincentivises their managers from helping them sell FW is absolutely no excuse, it just makes the company look that much worse.

 Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:
While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

Why?

If they standardise it that FW isn't allowed, it just create bad feels in stores where store managers did previously allow it.

Seems like GW is a lot more lenient with this than .... say .... Taco Bell disallowing you to order a Pizza Hut pizza to their restaurant or whatever.

Massive false equivalence there! FW is made by GW. It's literally the same company.

Also, I'm very much of the view that all stores should allow it - and that this should be mandated by head office. The idea that you can by an official, premium priced product for a game made by the same company and then be told you arent allowed to use it in the stores operated by that same company that are setup specifically to allow the playing of that self same game is so ridiculous I'm struggling not to use expletives.

Taco Bell and Pizza Hut are also the same company.

Doesn't mean that in "modern" retail (and restaurant, etc..) managers are still working their own baseline and sales targets, etc.., etc.. (which they can only do if they're allowed to manage it, to the best of their knowledge, to what works for them in their locality).

And there can be no blanket permission for that across all stores in all countries across the world. There is not even a blanket permission to even play anything at all in GW stores. There are some hole-in-the-wall stores that will not allow you to play 40K or AoS, period. Perhaps demo some Shadespire or so.

The only thing that "might", in theory, be considered is a blanket ban on FW in GW stores (unless the miniature moves to plastic manufacturing, at which point it's rarely sold under the FW brand anymore, even if it comes from the FW department at GW (e.g. Blood Bowl, Necromunda) because that particular brand isn't targeted at the kind of consumers "most" stores try to get.

Restaurants are a false equivalence though. It's a ridiculous comparison. A meal is a set thing that you fully use there and then. A war game army is something you build up and work on over a long time. It just doesnt work at all as a comparison.

Of course there can be a blanket permission, dont be silly. If they dont have tables to play 40k that's fine. But the rule needs to be that all official models for a game that IS being played must be allowed in the store. Especially, doubly so, if they are CURRENT models the company sells.

If it’s a GW store, then you have to realize that you’re playing in a catalog show room. You are, in other words, getting to play in the store in exchange for volunteering to help advertise product. So if GW has a dusfunctional sales system, that’s how it’s going to be.

On the other hand, Forge World has the problems that:
* They models and rules are less accessible to new players.
* Forge World rule’s development has a bad history of obscurity, neglect, and people bringing up the obscure over powered items after going to the effort of getting there.

So if the manager wants to discourage Forge World at the store, and you want to show off your Forge World toys, what you need to do is be able to convince the manager that you’ll do your part to help sales. How much experience do you have with “Help the new player win, without being obvious about it” demo games?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:
While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

Why?

If they standardise it that FW isn't allowed, it just create bad feels in stores where store managers did previously allow it.

Seems like GW is a lot more lenient with this than .... say .... Taco Bell disallowing you to order a Pizza Hut pizza to their restaurant or whatever.

Yeah except we are talking about a trsding arm of the same company legally FW doesn't exisist as a company.

Also I have long suspected that that story is actually not about capacity it's about their inability to do quality control.

As Forgeworld is currently sold people who are going their are committed hobbyist who usually have knowledgeable about the kits or know were to find out how to fix things. Could you really imagine how frustrating it would be for new players to have such a sucky experience, I remember the introduction of fail cast and people being told to avoid entire armies as their line was 90% failcast. You could go through 20 blisters to get a fixable not even clean cast

As nice as most staff are their is no way enough of them could help with some of the issues you find in FW kits.

 Stux wrote:
Restaurants are a false equivalence though. It's a ridiculous comparison. A meal is a set thing that you fully use there and then. A war game army is something you build up and work on over a long time. It just doesnt work at all as a comparison.

It's separate brands targeting separate customers. For that purpose it's the same. Take any other company that manages multiple brands, more up-market and more mundane, Buick vs. Cadillac, 20 different Proctor & Gamble shower gels or shaving creams, whatever.

Merging them too much takes away the entire point of having FW as a separate brand which charges an extra buck of the crafted illusion of being the more mature, exclusive stuff, books with more muted colours, higher prices, etc.., etc..

Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky.

OP - I may have missed this in the thread, but have you talked to the actual manager about the policy? What you're saying seems to be coming from another customer. To your first point, there are also a TON of actual GW models you can't get at a GW store. Would you also not be allowed to use those? My local GW store (and every other GW store I've ever been to, which is admittedly a small number) is fine with FW models. That's why they have the in-store iPad. When someone wants something, the manager leads them over to it and they place an order that ships to the store (I've seen this done for GW AND FW models).

To your second point - I wouldn't say the rules are any more "janky" at this point than most of the GW rules, and, honestly, most of the FW stuff is under-powered at this point. That said. there IS a legitimate problem with accessibility as not everyone has FW books just laying around. This is pretty easily solved at my store by simply bringing said book to the store just like you would a regular codex. My local GW does make exceptions from time to time (for example most of the in-store tournaments do specify no Forge World), but in most of the pick-up games, FW is totally fine as long as you have the rules and as long as they aren't recasts or anything crazy like that.

It's possible you're just facing a "Gate-Keeper" type situation that the manager doesn't even know about. At which point, you have to ask yourself - if the manager says FW IS allowed, that group probably won't want to play against it, so you risk losing that group, but it may be worth it in the long run if they really are that up-tight.

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

"1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky."

These are both valid reasons, I think.

Martel732 wrote:
So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

Yes. Because one is an official outlet for the game you bought your model from, and the other is an independent event.

I happen to think its dumb for an event to ban FW too, but at the end of the day it's up to the TO. Unless it's an official GW run event of course, in which case they absolutely need to allow FW.

 Stux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

Yes. Because one is an official outlet for the game you bought your model from, and the other is an independent event.

I happen to think its dumb for an event to ban FW too, but at the end of the day it's up to the TO. Unless it's an official GW run event of course, in which case they absolutely need to allow FW.

If GW would just move FW to legends, this would all be solved.

Tournaments are also one time specialist events, whilst a game store is a continual game playing spot where you could potentially play several times a week.

The two are very different environments. A tournament that bans something or has specific rules only affects that event for at most two days of a tournament; perhaps once a year. A game store on the other hand, is the main place of play for many where they will play their game for the majority of their time.

Martel732 wrote:
So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

"1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky."

These are both valid reasons, I think.

Think you're possibly bringing a little personal bias in on this Martel?

Fw can be a bit of a sore point for gw stores. The manager of my "local" (is an hour and a half drive local?) gw says she'd love to be able to sell fw at the store, as it would add to sales and prevent the whole having to tell someone "sorry, we can't get that here " scenario. I can understand why they might be a little reticent to allow the models.

Really it's all silly, gw stores should get credit for ordering fw items at the store. Gw not doing so is a bad policy.

As other posters have mentioned, there are GW models you can get through mail order only.

The last time I bought something at a GW store, it was FW and the manager helped me order it on an in-store computer. I didn't have to pay for shipping.

So is it technically true you can't order FW from GW stores? I don't think so.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

"1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky."

These are both valid reasons, I think.

Think you're possibly bringing a little personal bias in on this Martel?

Fw can be a bit of a sore point for gw stores. The manager of my "local" (is an hour and a half drive local?) gw says she'd love to be able to sell fw at the store, as it would add to sales and prevent the whole having to tell someone "sorry, we can't get that here " scenario. I can understand why they might be a little reticent to allow the models.

Really it's all silly, gw stores should get credit for ordering fw items at the store. Gw not doing so is a bad policy.

Of course. But I think those reasons are perfectly valid. #2 is a big reason why I want them sent to legends.

FW is a sore point for more than just GW stores. ETC anyone?

 techsoldaten wrote:
As other posters have mentioned, there are GW models you can get through mail order only.

The last time I bought something at a GW store, it was FW and the manager helped me order it on an in-store computer. I didn't have to pay for shipping.

So is it technically true you can't order FW from GW stores? I don't think so.

Yes, they can order it, but it doesn't count towards their sales. Making it so that it does would go a long way to fix this issue.

The bias there is about as blatant as it can get.

So, janky rules?
Last “big” issue was leviathan dreads.
The funny part? It was regular 40k rules that broke them (iron hands) and not FW rules.

If anything, FW rules these days are on the weak side of things.
Almost every broken thing in 40k has been GW products lately.

The old myth of broken FW rules ended a long time ago and sadly, some people are too salty to move on with life.





In regards to the store manager, it’s down to him sadly.
Most stores I’ve been to don’t care if it’s GW or FW, but some do.
FW sales don’t have any bearing on the store, so they try not to promote it (despite FW being part of GW) as it’s of no benefit to them.

Yes, they can order it, but it doesn't count towards their sales. Making it so that it does would go a long way to fix this issue.

Not entirely accurate. The manager at my store explained that, while buying something off the shelf is better for him, he gets a special kind of credit for everything that gets delivered to the store. So it actually does help.

Absolutely agree there. Any sale that is designated for store pickup, GW or FW, should have a portion allocated towards that store. Because there's a pretty fair chance that a decent number of those sales wouldnt have happened without the store being there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

Yes, they can order it, but it doesn't count towards their sales. Making it so that it does would go a long way to fix this issue.

Not entirely accurate. The manager at my store explained that, while buying something off the shelf is better for him, he gets a special kind of credit for everything that gets delivered to the store. So it actually does help.

If that is true, and I hope it is, it makes the OP's store manager's behaviour all the more baffling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jackal90 wrote:


The old myth of broken FW rules ended a long time ago and sadly, some people are too salty to move on with life.

In defense of this position, a tiny bit, there are a handful of FW units whose rules are literally broken. I dont mean overpowered, I mean they dont work at all as written.

One example is the Renegades and Heretics units who's LD is not determined until they make a morale test. Except some things other than morale tests require a LD score.

GW stuff is not immune to this, it's just more likely to eventually get FAQd.

Of course, we've been told new FW indexes are on the way! So fingers crossed.

Tycho wrote:

Yes, they can order it, but it doesn't count towards their sales. Making it so that it does would go a long way to fix this issue.

Not entirely accurate. The manager at my store explained that, while buying something off the shelf is better for him, he gets a special kind of credit for everything that gets delivered to the store. So it actually does help.

Didn't know that. Is it possible that some store managers are also unaware? Or the policy isn't promoted well by the company to them?

As to fw being OP, no, it isn't. As others have stated, any recent problems with fw units have been caused by gw rules, not fw. New rules are on the way, as Stux has pointed out, so maybe the few offending units will be addressed.

Thanks for the responses everyone, it gives me some good food for thought and will probably bring it up soon in some form. I may also start to split my time like Lammia suggested between the store and a gaming club I know exists locally but haven't tried out yet. (Funnily enough, said club was suggested by a manager at a different GW store.)

Tycho wrote:
OP - I may have missed this in the thread, but have you talked to the actual manager about the policy? What you're saying seems to be coming from another customer.

This was from a staff member who wasn't the manager, but I gather the manager himself shares similar views.

The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

Didn't know that. Is it possible that some store managers are also unaware? Or the policy isn't promoted well by the company to them?

I'm sure that's possible. I think the other potential thing happening is that (as my store manager explained it), it's not quite the same as what they get for selling an item right off the shelf (which is why I said it's not entirely accurate vs saying it was wrong). We all know the sales quotas required of the managers are, at times, borderline criminal, so if someone is at a store that's not comfortably hitting quotas, I could see them just trying as hard as possible to push the off-the-shelf stuff and just not mentioning the ordering thing. Could also be that it's not an evenly applied policy across all regions? I just know the stores I've been to, and in particular, my local GW, do get some sort of credit for having items ordered online and shipped to them. My manager falls all over himself to walk someone to the store iPad display if a customer wants something he doesn't have or sell, and has mentioned this multiple times.

This was from a staff member who wasn't the manager, but I gather the manager himself shares similar views.

Ah. Thank you. Reading is fundamental. lol Could have sworn it was another customer. Still, I'd make sure the manager really is down with that. When my GW store first opened, the manager was great, but his back-up staffer was a tool. Everything that's wrong with "gaming" today. It wasn't until someone brought this to the attention of the actual manger that we all discovered the back-up was making up his own "rules".

Tycho wrote:

Yes, they can order it, but it doesn't count towards their sales. Making it so that it does would go a long way to fix this issue.

Not entirely accurate. The manager at my store explained that, while buying something off the shelf is better for him, he gets a special kind of credit for everything that gets delivered to the store. So it actually does help.

I've never heard that - perhaps it's a US-only thing?

Janky =/= broken. Leviathans were busted before IH, but the rest of the army sucked. The BS 2+ dreads wallpaper most marine vehicles, which is why I hate them in general.

And yes, I'm biased. I've never liked FW. I don't like resin. I don't like marines having 15 dreadnoughts. I don't like having to reference MOAR books.

Tycho wrote:

Yes, they can order it, but it doesn't count towards their sales. Making it so that it does would go a long way to fix this issue.

Not entirely accurate. The manager at my store explained that, while buying something off the shelf is better for him, he gets a special kind of credit for everything that gets delivered to the store. So it actually does help.

My local GW actively encourages people to pre-order online for delivery to the store for pick-up on release day, so they must get some benefit (or least not harmed).

(The store employees also have plenty of FW projects on the go and a few big pieces like a Thunderhawk in/on the display cabinets.)

Martel732 wrote:
Janky =/= broken. Leviathans were busted before IH, but the rest of the army sucked. The BS 2+ dreads wallpaper most marine vehicles, which is why I hate them in general.

And yes, I'm biased. I've never liked FW. I don't like resin. I don't like marines having 15 dreadnoughts. I don't like having to reference MOAR books.

So you're complaining that a vehicle that is perfectly legal for your army is good against other vehicles in your army? So why not use it? And if you don't like MOAR books be glad you don't play csm.

It's nice that you finally admit to not liking resin at least.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Janky =/= broken. Leviathans were busted before IH, but the rest of the army sucked. The BS 2+ dreads wallpaper most marine vehicles, which is why I hate them in general.

And yes, I'm biased. I've never liked FW. I don't like resin. I don't like marines having 15 dreadnoughts. I don't like having to reference MOAR books.

So you're complaining that a vehicle that is perfectly legal for your army is good against other vehicles in your army? So why not use it? And if you don't like MOAR books be glad you don't play csm.

It's nice that you finally admit to not liking resin at least.

Not good AGAINST them, good in place of them.

Martel732 wrote:
Janky =/= broken. Leviathans were busted before IH, but the rest of the army sucked. The BS 2+ dreads wallpaper most marine vehicles, which is why I hate them in general.

And yes, I'm biased. I've never liked FW. I don't like resin. I don't like marines having 15 dreadnoughts. I don't like having to reference MOAR books.

Yeah how about you dial your personal bias down a notch before you ban half of peoples armies just because it's made from a different material by the same company.

It's this kind of attitude that sucks, so no-one should be allowed to use 30k models in 40k ever or use any of the rediculously over pointed models because you don't like resin. So your going to ban all failcast aswell as it's still resin?

You know what's even funnier is GW rules team are writing the new rules post index's for FW now, I actually expect more dumb rules decissions and interactions from this as GW main have such a great hit rate for requiring day 1 faq's

How dare armies have more options and more variety!
Who ever wanted that!? ....... wait.

Times change, people either need to move with them or accept that they will be eternally bitter.

But I think the game needs fewer choices, not more. GW can barely balance two units, much less hundreds. When FW is ACTUALLY written by the same team, I'll reconsider. The BS 2+ dreads are almost unforgivable, though. Marines in particular need 2/3 of their models axed. They have WAY too many.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Janky =/= broken. Leviathans were busted before IH, but the rest of the army sucked. The BS 2+ dreads wallpaper most marine vehicles, which is why I hate them in general.

And yes, I'm biased. I've never liked FW. I don't like resin. I don't like marines having 15 dreadnoughts. I don't like having to reference MOAR books.

Yeah how about you dial your personal bias down a notch before you ban half of peoples armies just because it's made from a different material by the same company.

It's this kind of attitude that sucks, so no-one should be allowed to use 30k models in 40k ever or use any of the rediculously over pointed models because you don't like resin. So your going to ban all failcast aswell as it's still resin?

You know what's even funnier is GW rules team are writing the new rules post index's for FW now, I actually expect more dumb rules decissions and interactions from this as GW main have such a great hit rate for requiring day 1 faq's

You can use them as Legends, ideally. Someone in ETC apparently agrees with me, so don't try to paint my position as some nutjob outlier.

Martel732 wrote:
But I think the game needs fewer choices, not more. GW can barely balance two units, much less hundreds. When FW is ACTUALLY written by the same team, I'll reconsider. The BS 2+ dreads are almost unforgivable, though. Marines in particular need 2/3 of their models axed. They have WAY too many.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Janky =/= broken. Leviathans were busted before IH, but the rest of the army sucked. The BS 2+ dreads wallpaper most marine vehicles, which is why I hate them in general.

And yes, I'm biased. I've never liked FW. I don't like resin. I don't like marines having 15 dreadnoughts. I don't like having to reference MOAR books.

Yeah how about you dial your personal bias down a notch before you ban half of peoples armies just because it's made from a different material by the same company.

It's this kind of attitude that sucks, so no-one should be allowed to use 30k models in 40k ever or use any of the rediculously over pointed models because you don't like resin. So your going to ban all failcast aswell as it's still resin?

You know what's even funnier is GW rules team are writing the new rules post index's for FW now, I actually expect more dumb rules decissions and interactions from this as GW main have such a great hit rate for requiring day 1 faq's

You can use them as Legends, ideally.

You are so far behind that you Make yourself Look Like a clown.

Since the first ca all fw rules are weiteren by the Same Team as mainline due to the death of bleigh.

Martel732 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Janky =/= broken. Leviathans were busted before IH, but the rest of the army sucked. The BS 2+ dreads wallpaper most marine vehicles, which is why I hate them in general.

And yes, I'm biased. I've never liked FW. I don't like resin. I don't like marines having 15 dreadnoughts. I don't like having to reference MOAR books.

So you're complaining that a vehicle that is perfectly legal for your army is good against other vehicles in your army? So why not use it? And if you don't like MOAR books be glad you don't play csm.

It's nice that you finally admit to not liking resin at least.

Not good AGAINST them, good in place of them.

Like I said before, then why not use it? Just because you don't like resin? Why? Too much work? The cost?

And as others have said, just because you don't like fw, why should it be removed as an option for everyone?

Martel732 wrote:
But I think the game needs fewer choices, not more. GW can barely balance two units, much less hundreds. When FW is ACTUALLY written by the same team, I'll reconsider. The BS 2+ dreads are almost unforgivable, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Janky =/= broken. Leviathans were busted before IH, but the rest of the army sucked. The BS 2+ dreads wallpaper most marine vehicles, which is why I hate them in general.

And yes, I'm biased. I've never liked FW. I don't like resin. I don't like marines having 15 dreadnoughts. I don't like having to reference MOAR books.

Yeah how about you dial your personal bias down a notch before you ban half of peoples armies just because it's made from a different material by the same company.

It's this kind of attitude that sucks, so no-one should be allowed to use 30k models in 40k ever or use any of the rediculously over pointed models because you don't like resin. So your going to ban all failcast aswell as it's still resin?

You know what's even funnier is GW rules team are writing the new rules post index's for FW now, I actually expect more dumb rules decissions and interactions from this as GW main have such a great hit rate for requiring day 1 faq's

You can use them as Legends, ideally.

So basically nowhere yeah hard pass.

You also complete dodged the point of are you going to ban failcast models too?

It removes books from the pool and trims out a bunch of marine models. I think those interests are more beneficial than giving marines MOAR choices.

Martel732 wrote:
It removes books from the pool and trims out a bunch of marine models. I think those interests are more beneficial than giving marines MOAR choices.

Ah so just SPACEMARINE FW you want to ban then, fine go ahead, just don't drag every other army down because of marines.

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It removes books from the pool and trims out a bunch of marine models. I think those interests are more beneficial than giving marines MOAR choices.

Ah so just SPACEMARINE FW you want to ban then, fine go ahead, just don't drag every other army down because of marines.

Depends on the marines we're talking about. Removing fw options from csm would pretty much gut them. Our codex options are pretty gak in a lot of roles, or just non existent.

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It removes books from the pool and trims out a bunch of marine models. I think those interests are more beneficial than giving marines MOAR choices.

Ah so just SPACEMARINE FW you want to ban then, fine go ahead, just don't drag every other army down because of marines.

Does ETC limit it to space marines?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It removes books from the pool and trims out a bunch of marine models. I think those interests are more beneficial than giving marines MOAR choices.

Ah so just SPACEMARINE FW you want to ban then, fine go ahead, just don't drag every other army down because of marines.

Depends on the marines we're talking about. Removing fw options from csm would pretty much gut them. Our codex options are pretty gak in a lot of roles, or just non existent.

Rather I'd just prefer people get past this FW has rules issues. Nonsence and leave them be, most of their options are over pointed like crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It removes books from the pool and trims out a bunch of marine models. I think those interests are more beneficial than giving marines MOAR choices.

Ah so just SPACEMARINE FW you want to ban then, fine go ahead, just don't drag every other army down because of marines.

Does ETC limit it to space marines?

Well as ETC nolonger play 40k and don't have a 40k event I really don't care. Your really showing how out of touch you are.

WTC are open to reviewing FW limitation once they have themselves sorted and the updated FW rules are released.

Fine. USED to ban it. It doesn't matter that they don't play it anymore. It's not a fringe idea.

Ice_can wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It removes books from the pool and trims out a bunch of marine models. I think those interests are more beneficial than giving marines MOAR choices.

Ah so just SPACEMARINE FW you want to ban then, fine go ahead, just don't drag every other army down because of marines.

Depends on the marines we're talking about. Removing fw options from csm would pretty much gut them. Our codex options are pretty gak in a lot of roles, or just non existent.

Rather I'd just prefer people get past this FW has rules issues. Nonsence and leave them be, most of their options are over pointed like crazy.

Hopefully the new books will address the points issue, which is issue number one as far as I'm concerned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Fine. USED to ban it. It doesn't matter that they don't play it anymore. It's not a fringe idea.

You've still not addressed NotOnline!!'s point, the current Indexes were written by the gw rules team, and the upcoming books will be as well. Will that settle this for you?

If that happens, that would help a lot. I'm still not a fan of those BS 2+ dreads. I'll believe it when I see it. Of course, these are the same idiots who brought us IH supplement.

Martel732 wrote:
If that happens, that would help a lot. I'm still not a fan of those BS 2+ dreads. I'll believe it when I see it. Of course, these are the same idiots who brought us IH supplement.

Tbf most Stuff gw throws out isn't peachy and most dexes can be summarized by Bad to brokenly Bad Units with the extreme overly good performing outlier.

Much Same can be said about fw done by gw.
Most Stuff got even worse then the pitifull stopgap. And for every sm/csm dread or other that actually is good (just good , a Levi is just good without the supplement Bolt on stupidity and that makes other sm Stuff even worse.) Theres about 4 things worse then it by miles.

Martel732 wrote:If that happens, that would help a lot. I'm still not a fan of those BS 2+ dreads. I'll believe it when I see it. Of course, these are the same idiots who brought us IH supplement.

Lots of things have BS 2+, why do dreadnoughts bother you so much? Want to see Custodes go to Legends too?

Not Online!!! wrote:Tbf most Stuff gw throws out isn't peachy and most dexes can be summarized by Bad to brokenly Bad Units with the extreme overly good performing outlier.

Much Same can be said about fw done by gw.
Most Stuff got even worse then the pitifull stopgap. And for every sm/csm dread or other that actually is good (just good , a Levi is just good without the supplement Bolt on stupidity and that makes other sm Stuff even worse.) Theres about 4 things worse then it by miles.

No they've always been OP! that's why no one complained about them until the ih supplement dropped and many players forget csm can even take them, or that they have different rules.

Marine dreads have BS 3+. There's no reason for there to be marine dreads with BS 2+ other than oneupmanship Marines don't need ten different dreads anyway. The other units like Custodes are fine.

Martel732 wrote:
Marine dreads have BS 3+. There's no reason for there to be marine dreads with BS 2+ other than oneupmanship Marines don't need ten different dreads anyway. The other units like Custodes are fine.

Csm have four, counting fw. See why csm players get cranky when people start talking about removing fw? Fw is also our only option for drop pods, nlos shooting, and flyers that don't look like they belong in AoS and super heavys that don't look like they came off the cover of some lame garage thrash band's latest album.

As somebody who has been using FW models sin 2002 ish

1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky.

1. this is normal for GW stores they don't want you to play anything they can't sell this includes all GW specialist games like BFG/epic etc...

2. historical FW has had a handful of minis that had bad rules (that were quickly fixed). but by comparison they have been very balanced if not over-priced for what they do compared to the main line rules for units.

So much so that many FW kits have been imported into plastics for the main line parts of 40k

Trygons, all the baneblade varients, valkyries, weapon options like dreadnought plasma cannons etc.. all started out life as FW only models.


I am of course also talking about alternate weapons loadouts and units, not FW cool looking components like Ryza pattern turret for your leman russ, or sealed turrets on the basilisk or hydra etc.. that have no real in game rules difference


As a rule for FW in my local area-if you bought it, GW makes it, and you have a copy of the rules by all means play with your toys. it is fun to see different things on the table instead of the same cookie cutter power lists.

Hardcore non-casual players might be a problem for you though.

Not sure I'd consider the leviathan dread remotely balanced.

Which sure explains why you always see Chaos fielding them!

Wait...

It's almost as if the hellforged leviathan has an inferior invul than the loyalist version, thus making it more vulnerable to anti tank weapons. Or perhaps the loyalists have some sort of "supplemental" rules making supposedly equal and equally priced units used by both factions unequal.

I must investigate!

Butcher cannons are disgustingly good.

Martel732 wrote:
Butcher cannons are disgustingly good.

Really? They're auto cannons with less range, str8 instead of str7, and an anti-leadership mechanic, for more points. Is there anything you don't think is too good besides Blood Angels?

Martel732 wrote:
Butcher cannons are disgustingly good.

Butcher cannons are actually overpriced by 25% .
Cue hades autocannon.

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Karol wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Well if we're going anecdotally, the group in my local shop (non GW, can bring whatever you like) is generally pretty against recasts. As in few if any of them would ever consider using them, and would be unlikely to even buy FW on ebay due to the risk of it not being real.

Karol wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Karol... this might be hard to belive but the entire world aren't complete and absolute dicks. in fact I sometimes wonder if your local player base is really as bad as yu think or if you just imagine it all

I personally don't care, but 80% of the fw i play against is chinaforge. Most openly talk about what a great deal it was and the rest i ask.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Butcher cannons are disgustingly good.

Butcher cannons are actually overpriced by 25% .
Cue hades autocannon.

How so?

Because the butcher Autocannon is a worse Hades autocannon with less range.
And how often do you see hades AC's

As stated above, Forge World orders are not counted in the sales number for a GW store. Ironically selecting in store pick up from your home computer also does not count for a stores sales numbers. GW would have to completely redesign how they track sales to account for that and to corporate, it’s not worth the effort.

The manager takes an extreme approach. A lot of managers tend to disuade forge world but it does cut into their bottom line. The manager at my old local store was cool with it being used but just asked that you didn’t try to sell it. The only time he banned a guy was a DKoK player who never bought anything and even then he only got banned when he tried to disused a customer from buying a vanilla guard kit.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Taco Bell and Pizza Hut are also the same company.

Doesn't mean that in "modern" retail (and restaurant, etc..) managers are still working their own baseline and sales targets, etc.., etc.. (which they can only do if they're allowed to manage it, to the best of their knowledge, to what works for them in their locality).

The difference is that those are franchises, where the manager actually owns the business and is paying the parent company (Taco Bell/Pizza Hut) for licensing rights. Taco Bell is not going to order Pizza Hut for you because that would mean selling another store's products.

GW store managers are direct employees of GW. Commissions based on individual store sales are a policy set up by GW corporate; the managers don't actually own the stores. If you go into a GW and order a FW model through their system, the money is going to the same place and the product is coming from the same place.

A better comparison would be an Apple store. They're all owned by Apple corporate, not individual franchises. If you walk into one and want to special-order a $5,000 iMac Pro, do you think the store manager is going to steer you towards buying a $1300 laptop that they have in-stock at the store instead? Of course not; Apple doesn't make an arbitrary distinction between the mass-market products they stock in their stores and the more boutique ones that they sell directly from their distribution centers.

With how downright ridiculous the profit margins are on FW (I've been told by someone who ought to know that they sell to their employees at 50% off and still make a profit), GW's policy of actively discouraging their stores from selling FW product seems absurd.

 catbarf wrote:

With how downright ridiculous the profit margins are on FW (I've been told by someone who ought to know that they sell to their employees at 50% off and still make a profit), GW's policy of actively discouraging their stores from selling FW product seems absurd.

GW staff only get 25% off FW. They get 50% off regular GW.

Problem is that you cannot buy Forge World through GW stores. You can have stuff sent to certain locations(Warhammer Citadel, Warhammer World, and I believe in the UK certain shops?), but even then you're not ordering it "through their system". You're just using the shop as a collection point.

Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.


Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

As i said, my primary store for 8 years was 80%+ recast. No one is paying full price for resin.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Problem is that you cannot buy Forge World through GW stores. You can have stuff sent to certain locations(Warhammer Citadel, Warhammer World, and I believe in the UK certain shops?), but even then you're not ordering it "through their system". You're just using the shop as a collection point.

I believe you can pick up FW from all UK stores.

And my position on this point is very much that this is GW's problem to fix. It's not reasonable for it to be the consumer's problem not being able to use their product in some of their own store (inconsistently) just because their system is stupid.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

Seems to me like you're using a bazooka to swat a fly and frankly I'm glad I'd never have the displeasure of dealing with you.

You understand that I'm not the person who put down the rules for my local stuff, yeah? I'm sitting on 3 units of Secutarii Peltasts and 2 of Secutarii Hoplites for my AdMech, then a fairly wide spread of stuff for my Guard(Vulture, Tarantulas, a Crassus) that I like to use from FW.

It went from "use whatever you want, whenever you want as long as you have the physical rules or a printout handy for your opponent to consult" to "max of 2 units, printouts for both you and your opponent and clear it with your opponent ahead of time".

And it was all because one person whose stuff was fairly nicely painted, kept plugging a Russian recaster in the shop whenever new people would ask where he got some of his centerpiece items.

Don't play in GW stores. Local stores don't care nearly as much.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And it was all because one person whose stuff was fairly nicely painted, kept plugging a Russian recaster in the shop whenever new people would ask where he got some of his centerpiece items.

So, if that is the attitude you have to tar everyone with the same brush because of a single bad apple then I don't know what to say...

You ban the guy as he is the problem, not FW.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And it was all because one person whose stuff was fairly nicely painted, kept plugging a Russian recaster in the shop whenever new people would ask where he got some of his centerpiece items.

So, if that is the attitude you have to tar everyone with the same brush because of a single bad apple then I don't know what to say...

You ban the guy as he is the problem, not FW.

Dude, read his full post instead of cherry picking.
You wouldn’t have needed to even post that if you had read it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And it was all because one person whose stuff was fairly nicely painted, kept plugging a Russian recaster in the shop whenever new people would ask where he got some of his centerpiece items.

So, if that is the attitude you have to tar everyone with the same brush because of a single bad apple then I don't know what to say...

I kind of feel like you're arguing against a position I haven't taken here or that I might have appeared to be taking. This is one of the issues that comes up, no matter who is involved, regarding 'The Rules' at local shops that none of us are privy to. Hell, the OP himself might not necessarily be aware of situations.

You ban the guy as he is the problem, not FW.

Problem is that, as someone so helpfully pointed out, GW managers aren't the official owners. My understanding is that they can't just "ban" someone but it requires corporate to get involved, and it involves law enforcement as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Problem is that you cannot buy Forge World through GW stores. You can have stuff sent to certain locations(Warhammer Citadel, Warhammer World, and I believe in the UK certain shops?), but even then you're not ordering it "through their system". You're just using the shop as a collection point.

Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.

Not sure if things have changed, but you used to be able to order FW through a GW store and it would be delivered there.

But all those limitations you mention are imposed by GW. Forge World isn't a separate company and never has been. If GW doesn't want it to be easy to order FW through their stores, doesn't want to integrate them into the same logistical chain, and doesn't want to reward their employees for selling customers expensive Forge World models- that's all on GW.

I can't imagine Apple ever coming out and saying 'hey, we've decided to put all our products over $1k into a separate brand- they're still Apple, but you won't be able to buy them in stores, they won't be part of our normal logistical chain so everything will have to be special-ordered, and our employees will encourage you not to buy them, but you can get them through our website if you really want.'

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

Kanluwen wrote:Problem is that you cannot buy Forge World through GW stores. You can have stuff sent to certain locations(Warhammer Citadel, Warhammer World, and I believe in the UK certain shops?), but even then you're not ordering it "through their system". You're just using the shop as a collection point.

In my experience, I can order FW stuff just fine through my local GW. Not that I have any reason to now, given that in the same amount of time it would take me to do that, I could just go straight to FW directly and pick up what I'm after in person.

I have never been able to order FW stuff through my local shop here in the US. That's why my statement was phrased as such.
I do know that the Battle Bunkers were able to order things, but never went to any of them.

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.
Quite a lot off us would be willing to pay the prices allbeit begrudingly if it weren't for the often somewhat questionable resin quality delivered.

BrianDavion 787527 10776345 wrote:
Karol... this might be hard to belive but the entire world aren't complete and absolute dicks. in fact I sometimes wonder if your local player base is really as bad as yu think or if you just imagine it all

When I talk about something like this, I am not talking about my store. My store closed, so technicly I have no people to play anymore. I am talking about the whole country, and a few other countries too. Belarus and Russia is full of recasters. they make so much stuff, not just for themselfs, but they sell it to other countries. Some get so big, that they set up legit store fronts online.

If people can buy armies cheaper they will. No wonder the stores aren't okey with people being dead against stuff like FW. They don't even like, if people try to play games they don't run. Such people just take up tables for people that actualy do buy the stuff stores sell. And making people that buy stuff unhappy ends bad for stores. Now I have not seen this. But heard stories about how we had 2 stores, and how the mtg store decided to stop running drafts and disallowed trading at the store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.

Polish and Russian recast models look better then FW originals, more crisp, no holes, no gummy barrels. Plus the dude that makes them can live 30 min away from you. Getting anything out of UK requires doing crazy stuff, and they always assume your trying to cheat them and when you finaly get the stuff it often has the same damage the first pice had. A guy at my store has 6 pairs of dreadnought arms, and not a single pair was good.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

Snitches get stitches.

But jokes aside, you guys seriously feel the need to complain over some poor dude head to his boss while he is probably not even working ATM over something so trivial? I mean, you could also try starting a discussion with the guy first like real adults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Ding ding sing. Give this man a cookie. I's wager anyone most of the community buys FW from china. Nobody admits it online, but it's basically an open secret. I even over hear fluffy players discussing putting in group orders to "there guy" that they use.

This probably also explains the lack of updates for rules. Why on earth would GW want to polish a product for recasters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Karol... this might be hard to belive but the entire world aren't complete and absolute dicks. in fact I sometimes wonder if your local player base is really as bad as yu think or if you just imagine it all

Hey look at the summer child.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

Snitches get stitches.

But jokes aside, you guys seriously feel the need to complain over some poor dude head to his boss while he is probably not even working ATM over something so trivial? I mean, you could also try starting a discussion with the guy first like real adults.

Honestly... The 'poor dude' and other people who are like "FW BAD! FW BROKEN!" are usually completely stuck in their ways, and besides real adults should not need to discus or debate basic stuff like that. Its about promoteing the hobby and enjoy it, and the store seems pretty stuck in its "janky" ways of handling things like FW. I dont think paying customers should EVER need to defend their selection of miniatures that is from the same company with completely legal rules. What they do in tournaments and beginner events however is totally up to them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.
Quite a lot off us would be willing to pay the prices allbeit begrudingly if it weren't for the often somewhat questionable resin quality delivered.

I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

 Brutallica wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

Snitches get stitches.

But jokes aside, you guys seriously feel the need to complain over some poor dude head to his boss while he is probably not even working ATM over something so trivial? I mean, you could also try starting a discussion with the guy first like real adults.

Honestly... The 'poor dude' and other people who are like "FW BAD! FW BROKEN!" are usually completely stuck in their ways, and besides real adults should not need to discus or debate basic stuff like that. Its about promoteing the hobby and enjoy it, and the store seems pretty stuck in its "janky" ways of handling things like FW. I dont think paying customers should EVER need to defend their selection of miniatures that is from the same company with completely legal rules. What they do in tournaments and beginner events however is totally up to them.

That's the exact type of thing grown mature people should be expected to do. Discuss basic stuff, not rat on a guy behind his back with limited information. It seems the real problem as usual is GW, who treats their store managers like garbage and puts them in an awkward spot through sales quotas and what does or doesn't count based on availability they set. Which is probably why they left it in the sotre managers hands, because it's easier for them to pass the buck.

BTW your still not really addressing the elephant in the room that's recasts.

My guess is FW resin is going to disappear in the near future anyway. It's just too easy to copy. Which is why nobody should be surprised the rules get minimal attention. Why through money and time at a terrible investment?

 harlokin wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.
Quite a lot off us would be willing to pay the prices allbeit begrudingly if it weren't for the often somewhat questionable resin quality delivered.

I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

The dreads are better but GOD forbid you ordered anything infantry from them. Also i wasted 3 hours fixing up decimator shoulderpads with heat.

Altough they do have topnotch custommer service.
However for the asking price and compared to other producers of resin fw is indeed sloppy.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.
Quite a lot off us would be willing to pay the prices allbeit begrudingly if it weren't for the often somewhat questionable resin quality delivered.

I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

The dreads are better but GOD forbid you ordered anything infantry from them. Also i wasted 3 hours fixing up decimator shoulderpads with heat.

Altough they do have topnotch custommer service.
However for the asking price and compared to other producers of resin fw is indeed sloppy.

Well to be honest, I keep thinking about ordering a Tantalus, but I'm terrified about the prospect of having to bend the sails in hot water.

 harlokin wrote:
I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

Chunky, boxy designs like most Imperial vehicles are usually pretty safe. That said, in addition to cast issues on thinner/more spindly sculpts, FW has done some weird things in the past. I once got a Vulture through an eBay auction that I suspected was recast, as it had big blobby lumps of resin in the wing roots preventing the wings from fitting. I ordered a Vulture straight from FW, and... same blobs of resin in the wing roots. I had to use a Dremel with a grinder attachment to actually fit the wings.

As a Drukhari player, if you want to see just how bad things can get, order a Tantalus or Reaper. I've yet to meet anybody who's received one with all the hull pieces intact, let alone ready to assemble without a few hours of correcting warpage.

 catbarf wrote:

As a Drukhari player, if you want to see just how bad things can get, order a Tantalus or Reaper. I've yet to meet anybody who's received one with all the hull pieces intact, let alone ready to assemble without a few hours of correcting warpage.

Same. I really want a Tantalus, but I dread having to heat-bend the sail into shape....

 catbarf wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

Chunky, boxy designs like most Imperial vehicles are usually pretty safe. That said, in addition to cast issues on thinner/more spindly sculpts, FW has done some weird things in the past. I once got a Vulture through an eBay auction that I suspected was recast, as it had big blobby lumps of resin in the wing roots preventing the wings from fitting. I ordered a Vulture straight from FW, and... same blobs of resin in the wing roots. I had to use a Dremel with a grinder attachment to actually fit the wings.

As a Drukhari player, if you want to see just how bad things can get, order a Tantalus or Reaper. I've yet to meet anybody who's received one with all the hull pieces intact, let alone ready to assemble without a few hours of correcting warpage.

Can rule out any hybrid kit as “safe” lol.
They are nothing of the sort.
The storm eagle and falchion remain my top nightmares to build.

Entire chaos dwarf army and never an issue.
Those 2, just no.

Well to be honest, I keep thinking about ordering a Tantalus, but I'm terrified about the prospect of having to bend the sails in hot water

I have to say, out of all the FW kits I've bought (which is a lot) the Tantalus is the WORST. Nothing lines up properly, you have to sand down and green stuff all the parts for it to fit together properly, and there are still gaps. Bad casting on my sail too, I cut off the little nubs at the end of the sail and replaced them with plastic ones from the Raider kit.

It also doesn't stand on its spindly little flight stand. I've had to cut a Voidraven flight stand in half and glue it to the bottom of the Tantalus to hold it up.

Definitely call GW and complain.

If it was me, I honestly wouldn't leave the store if they told me FW wasn't allowed. I'd continue playing and tell them to call the fething police because its my money, and my hobby and nobody tells me what to do with my fething time. It's their company and they should support it. All of it. It's not my fault others purchase second hand models.

I haven't seen a Tantalus in person, but I have seen Uraka the Warfiend and he looked pretty good (though I'm not sure if the owners had to do any fixing). I do want to buy Zhufor and some of the FW greater daemons and princes, but some of this talk has me doubting whether I should.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I haven't seen a Tantalus in person, but I have seen Uraka the Warfiend and he looked pretty good (though I'm not sure if the owners had to do any fixing). I do want to buy Zhufor and some of the FW greater daemons and princes, but some of this talk has me doubting whether I should.

Zhufor looks really great, I'm not sure if I prefer the bare headed version, or the terminator helm with teeth. I've always been tempted by the idea of a WE rhino rush army, but I'm put off by the old berserker sculpts.

 harlokin wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I haven't seen a Tantalus in person, but I have seen Uraka the Warfiend and he looked pretty good (though I'm not sure if the owners had to do any fixing). I do want to buy Zhufor and some of the FW greater daemons and princes, but some of this talk has me doubting whether I should.

Zhufor looks really great, I'm not sure if I prefer the bare headed version, or the terminator helm with teeth. I've always been tempted by the idea of a WE rhino rush army, but I'm put off by the old berserker sculpts.

You could Substitute with aos blood warriors.
Are the right size and have axes. Need some work potentially though on the foots and backpacks are needed.

I'd say it depends on age of the kit... And luck possibly. I own a Plague Hulk, Blight Drone, Necrosius, Plague Marine Upgrades and the old Nurgle Dreadnoughts and they are all outstanding kits, one of the Dreadnoughts had a little misscast and they needed some cleaning, but nothing overly complicated. Yes, their Resin is brittle and you have to be very careful with some things. But overall it's on a totally different Level than the finecrap GW sells you. Better quality resin I have from Wargame exklusive and maybe Anvil industry, other producers are worse than FW imo (Kromlech, Hitech, Puppets war). But overall Fw has decent quality in my experience. What I'm reading from their Lotr kits they're also very good. The prices are often extreme even for GW, but you pay what you're ready to pay.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

Snitches get stitches.

But jokes aside, you guys seriously feel the need to complain over some poor dude head to his boss while he is probably not even working ATM over something so trivial? I mean, you could also try starting a discussion with the guy first like real adults.

Honestly... The 'poor dude' and other people who are like "FW BAD! FW BROKEN!" are usually completely stuck in their ways, and besides real adults should not need to discus or debate basic stuff like that. Its about promoteing the hobby and enjoy it, and the store seems pretty stuck in its "janky" ways of handling things like FW. I dont think paying customers should EVER need to defend their selection of miniatures that is from the same company with completely legal rules. What they do in tournaments and beginner events however is totally up to them.

That's the exact type of thing grown mature people should be expected to do. Discuss basic stuff, not rat on a guy behind his back with limited information. It seems the real problem as usual is GW, who treats their store managers like garbage and puts them in an awkward spot through sales quotas and what does or doesn't count based on availability they set. Which is probably why they left it in the sotre managers hands, because it's easier for them to pass the buck.

BTW your still not really addressing the elephant in the room that's recasts.

My guess is FW resin is going to disappear in the near future anyway. It's just too easy to copy. Which is why nobody should be surprised the rules get minimal attention. Why through money and time at a terrible investment?

No, most grown mature people dont spend their time debateing if the sun is yellow, orange or blue, or if the moon is made out of cheese or not. He spend money on FW resin, he damn well should be able to use it in GW run stores/franchices end of story, its very simple. And if GW applauds this behaviour (id be surprised even with GW's quotas and restrictions) they should still hear the complaints and face the music. No reason to go undercover with things like this and debateing and spending your time convinceing an anti FW guy instead of having fun and playing the game with your GW/FW models.

BTW Still alot of people are paying for genuine FW models (atleast in my neck of the woods), regardless of your estimations, guesswork and fortunetelling, FW is still here, and people are still paying, i dont have the numbers, neither do you.

 catbarf wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

Chunky, boxy designs like most Imperial vehicles are usually pretty safe. That said, in addition to cast issues on thinner/more spindly sculpts, FW has done some weird things in the past. I once got a Vulture through an eBay auction that I suspected was recast, as it had big blobby lumps of resin in the wing roots preventing the wings from fitting. I ordered a Vulture straight from FW, and... same blobs of resin in the wing roots. I had to use a Dremel with a grinder attachment to actually fit the wings.

As a Drukhari player, if you want to see just how bad things can get, order a Tantalus or Reaper. I've yet to meet anybody who's received one with all the hull pieces intact, let alone ready to assemble without a few hours of correcting warpage.

Yes

all of my land raider upgrade kits (prometheus, helios, achillies), were fine as were my dreadnoughts, and tau crisis suits. the macharius had a bit of warping but it was easy to fix. i ordered a bunch of MK IV maximus suits and bolters for my 30K force and they seemed fine as well.

The storm eagle on the otherhand..................one of the worst abominations of a kit i have ever seen. definately not worth the cost. it was so warped that hot water didn't work. i had to use a heat gun to get it manageable enough to assemble and there were still huge gaps. not to mention the side panels were so thin i was afraid i was going to break them.

I still think GW has a lot of the blame to this, Poor support of the line over the years. And poor quality.

For a lot of factions its not even worth looking at the website Which i think causes more issues when something OP pops up, since players are asking why should all that effort just to let something like that in. Loosely tieing it into other 40k issues going on right now.

The last time we allow forgeworld in a tournament ended up with lots of complaints. Simply for the fact players felt they had no access to the rules in a reasonable way.

These things GW has the most power to fix.

I always wondered if they where selling crap resin as a way to make there big fans think of resin as a bad product so they stay within the GW brand.
Conspiracy and all that, But i not sure i hold enough of a high opinion on the company to think they really trying to do that.

Considering the rules are available online and in CA atleast points wise, accessability never has been better?
I remember a time where you had to order FW books in order to get the rules.


As for the Interbranch rivalries, i guess they are common in many bigger companies.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering the rules are available online and in CA atleast points wise, accessability never has been better?
I remember a time where you had to order FW books in order to get the rules.


As for the Interbranch rivalries, i guess they are common in many bigger companies.

This was before then, no one really cares here now. 40k is just not something people really care about passed very small group. Kill team is keeping it alive i think.

But even with the free rules, Its a huge pile to go though. In a bloated up time as well, Accessibility way better. But the Issues are still similar.
Poorly handled and in need of management to get its act together and work it out.

Apple fox wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering the rules are available online and in CA atleast points wise, accessability never has been better?
I remember a time where you had to order FW books in order to get the rules.


As for the Interbranch rivalries, i guess they are common in many bigger companies.

This was before then, no one really cares here now. 40k is just not something people really care about passed very small group. Kill team is keeping it alive i think.

But even with the free rules, Its a huge pile to go though. In a bloated up time as well, Accessibility way better. But the Issues are still similar.
Poorly handled and in need of management to get its act together and work it out.

The managemant doesn't need nor want to though, because booksales are the easiest and most recuring gians they can make.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering the rules are available online and in CA atleast points wise, accessability never has been better?
I remember a time where you had to order FW books in order to get the rules.


As for the Interbranch rivalries, i guess they are common in many bigger companies.

This was before then, no one really cares here now. 40k is just not something people really care about passed very small group. Kill team is keeping it alive i think.

But even with the free rules, Its a huge pile to go though. In a bloated up time as well, Accessibility way better. But the Issues are still similar.
Poorly handled and in need of management to get its act together and work it out.

The managemant doesn't need nor want to though, because booksales are the easiest and most recuring gians they can make.

Yup People keep buying.

TLDR; IMHO, don't play at a GW store. If you don't have a FLGS available, find someone's basement.

It's been a few years since I've set foot in a GW store. It was during WHFB End Times. I would go there at times to buy what I needed, since they have basically everything I could want as far as paints and minis. Everywhere else was a roll of the dice in the hopes they had the box or airbrush paint I wanted, or needed to wait on an order. I did, however, hate playing there, and I would take the time here to steer everyone away from it. I had to put up my guard every time I set foot in there.

I resent being pressured into sales, and that's what the store managers do. Unless their MO has changed, they operate understaffed and with intense pressure to sell in order to keep their job. It's incongruous with the relaxed atmosphere required to get the most fun out of moving plastic toy soldiers and rolling dice with some pals. Additionally, the floor space is usually too anemic to have more than a few players at a time, so in many cases, tournaments are right out.

The store went through managers seemingly every couple of months. It did not help build confidence for the way GW ran their business or treated their employees. It also didn't help keep customers returning, when GW representatives I built rapport with would disappear unannounced after every couple of visits. Perhaps I spent too much time thinking about why this was going on. I guess because they either hated the intense pressure from corporate to harass their customers for sales, or trying run a hobby store entirely by themselves for poor wages, or maybe they were pushed out by regional for not meeting a quota. Regardless, I didn't get the FLGS vibe from my GW store, ever.

I'm not going to spend any more time than I must, being crammed in a fart locker with some sweaty guy desperate to not let us leave without buying something. It feels greasy. I'd like to have fun with my hobby without wasting an ounce of anxiety on figuring out how to politely tell the store manager that I'm here to play, and not to buy. GW isn't know for making consumer-friendly policies, so I wouldn't hold your breath. If you want to play with FW models, you're probably going to have to do so at a friend's house.

Gotta agree with Joe. If you can't run your models at the store...don't play at the store. You can even politely tell them as much. A policy will continue to be a policy until it impacts their business or success.

I've never found a GW store a particularly good place to play (crap tables, crap terrain, etc.). If it's your only method of gaming I can understand the issues though.

There's no logical reason to ban FW beyond being petty. A decent GW employee would realize that growing the game/armies/enthusiasm is the main goal, not just "buy something in my store". As mentioned, he could even guide a player on how to order FW product direct to his store, etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.

Actually, it DOES come from the Memphis distribution center now. Pre-lockdown I ordered several FW orders at the beginning of the year and every single one was from the Memphis address regular GW orders come from.

There's plenty of reasons to 'ban' FW, you just don't happen to agree with them.

There's a difference.

 Elbows wrote:
Gotta agree with Joe. If you can't run your models at the store...don't play at the store. You can even politely tell them as much. A policy will continue to be a policy until it impacts their business or success.

I've never found a GW store a particularly good place to play (crap tables, crap terrain, etc.). If it's your only method of gaming I can understand the issues though.

There's no logical reason to ban FW beyond being petty. A decent GW employee would realize that growing the game/armies/enthusiasm is the main goal, not just "buy something in my store". As mentioned, he could even guide a player on how to order FW product direct to his store, etc.

My local GW is actually an awesome place to play. Top-notch terrain and tables, friendly employees, and all-around a good time.

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you-I fully believe there are crap GWs out there. Just that it's not a universal truth.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's plenty of reasons to 'ban' FW, you just don't happen to agree with them.

There's a difference.

No, actually there are not.

Picky picky here ...

"Some get so big, that they set up legit store fronts online."

If they're recasters, their store fronts ain't legit.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.

Actually, it DOES come from the Memphis distribution center now. Pre-lockdown I ordered several FW orders at the beginning of the year and every single one was from the Memphis address regular GW orders come from.

I'm going to go ahead and say that it looks like they are maintaining some items in Memphis then. The Realm of Battle tiles I've been doing on commission for someone had the UK FW address, not Memphis. The Thanatar that I got as part of my payment had Memphis.

Thanks for bringing that up though! It makes for an interesting thing to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's plenty of reasons to 'ban' FW, you just don't happen to agree with them.

There's a difference.

No, actually there are not.

People not having physical/legitimate/up to date copies of the rules for the items in question and people consistently trying to play recasts of top tier items or people trying to continually utilize tournament level 'stomp' lists are pretty reasonable to me.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.

Actually, it DOES come from the Memphis distribution center now. Pre-lockdown I ordered several FW orders at the beginning of the year and every single one was from the Memphis address regular GW orders come from.

I'm going to go ahead and say that it looks like they are maintaining some items in Memphis then. The Realm of Battle tiles I've been doing on commission for someone had the UK FW address, not Memphis. The Thanatar that I got as part of my payment had Memphis.

Thanks for bringing that up though! It makes for an interesting thing to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's plenty of reasons to 'ban' FW, you just don't happen to agree with them.

There's a difference.

No, actually there are not.

People not having physical/legitimate/up to date copies of the rules for the items in question and people consistently trying to play recasts of top tier items or people trying to continually utilize tournament level 'stomp' lists are pretty reasonable to me.

That's a problem regardless of Forgeworld-if I use 7 point Plaguebearers because I don't use CA, that's pretty much cheating.

And there are plenty of tournament lists (or just seal-clubbing lists) that won't feature a single FW item-again, the issue is not FW, it's people being jerks.

You're absolutely right that it can be a problem without FW, but it doesn't change that if you have one or two people consistently doing it and you're not able to just outright ban them from your shop?

Changing it to a "No FW" rule can be a way to ditch them.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You're absolutely right that it can be a problem without FW, but it doesn't change that if you have one or two people consistently doing it and you're not able to just outright ban them from your shop?

Changing it to a "No FW" rule can be a way to ditch them.

Not really as they can still go seal clubbing with another list, your problem has not been solved and now a number of other players will never even consider playing in such an environment.

Also this can't ban people must be something specific to America as I've seen UK GW stores ban people quite easily and quickly and have GW corporate actually stand by the decision.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You're absolutely right that it can be a problem without FW, but it doesn't change that if you have one or two people consistently doing it and you're not able to just outright ban them from your shop?

Changing it to a "No FW" rule can be a way to ditch them.

You don't use a frag nade to swat a fly or two no?
Why not boycott them.

Their store, their rules? Unless they are discriminating on prohibited grounds (race, religion etc) I don't see the issue. Go play somewhere else?

I play in two cities (live in one on weekends, work in another during the week.) I see plenty of FW models on the tabletop, but none are actually made in FW. Its mostly Leviathan and Deredo recasts. I think that GW has to be aware of the level of recasting and that somebody is eating their lunch.

Hopefully they bring those two models into the main fold and do them in plastic with an entry in the relevant Codexes. They would make good money, I imagine, from plastic kits of those two models and reduce the demand for the recasters. They would also become more accessible to the masses and the datasheets would be in the Codex and not somebody's phone.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Their store, their rules? Unless they are discriminating on prohibited grounds (race, religion etc) I don't see the issue. Go play somewhere else?

I play in two cities (live in one on weekends, work in another during the week.) I see plenty of FW models on the tabletop, but none are actually made in FW. Its mostly Leviathan and Deredo recasts. I think that GW has to be aware of the level of recasting and that somebody is eating their lunch.

Hopefully they bring those two models into the main fold and do them in plastic with an entry in the relevant Codexes. They would make good money, I imagine, from plastic kits of those two models and reduce the demand for the recasters. They would also become more accessible to the masses and the datasheets would be in the Codex and not somebody's phone.

But... but... That'd make more bloat! (said with as much sarcasm as typing will allow)

On the recast point:

FW are pricing themselves out of the model market. This has nothing to do with their rules.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
On the recast point:

FW are pricing themselves out of the model market. This has nothing to do with their rules.

It literally does. People view certain models as "must haves", but then think they are obliged to get them for cheap.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
On the recast point:

FW are pricing themselves out of the model market. This has nothing to do with their rules.

It literally does. People view certain models as "must haves", but then think they are obliged to get them for cheap.

Not really, you don't need leviathans or contemptors, often beeing more of a sidegrade, unless you are IH; but i don't blame a unit that was pretty much meta irrelevant until the IH supplement showed up.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
On the recast point:

FW are pricing themselves out of the model market. This has nothing to do with their rules.

It literally does. People view certain models as "must haves", but then think they are obliged to get them for cheap.

I don't know anyone in my area who views them as a must-have. I know people who would like to have them, but again, FW has priced themselves out of their own market.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
On the recast point:

FW are pricing themselves out of the model market. This has nothing to do with their rules.

It literally does. People view certain models as "must haves", but then think they are obliged to get them for cheap.

I don't know anyone in my area who views them as a must-have. I know people who would like to have them, but again, FW has priced themselves out of their own market.

I should clarify a bit more, but the reason some people view those models as must-haves are because they netlist and/or chase the meta despite having literally nothing to do with playing tournaments.

And frankly, those people? They wouldn't be buying FW anyways. They whine about everything GW pricewise and how they need every book, yadda yadda yadda.

Tbf the books are a valid concern imo.
Not least because it feels Like the ruleswriters themselves don't See the forrest anymore for the trees in the Way.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
On the recast point:

FW are pricing themselves out of the model market. This has nothing to do with their rules.

It literally does. People view certain models as "must haves", but then think they are obliged to get them for cheap.

Not really, you don't need leviathans or contemptors, often beeing more of a sidegrade, unless you are IH; but i don't blame a unit that was pretty much meta irrelevant until the IH supplement showed up.

Oh no, you are quite wrong about what I NEED & the why.

When I returned to the game in mid/late '18 one of the first things I did was scroll through FW to see what was new. When I got to the Leviathan? I stopped scrolling & ordered it + all arm options without ever wondering about the rules. Though i did add all the FW Index books to that order.
Why? Because I simply love dreadnoughts & that's a damned cool model.
Leviathan = need.

Deredos & Telemons (more needs) soon followed as the hobby budget permitted.

Iron Hands? Pfft. 99% of those players are just Flavor of the Month types (they don't even have an army painted up as IH). They'll be gone & ditch all their re-cast Leviathans when the rules don't favor them.
Me? My Leviathan is painted up as DA (3rd Co.) It'll be used as long as there's rules - great/OK/or bad - for it.