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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

Snitches get stitches.

But jokes aside, you guys seriously feel the need to complain over some poor dude head to his boss while he is probably not even working ATM over something so trivial? I mean, you could also try starting a discussion with the guy first like real adults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Ding ding sing. Give this man a cookie. I's wager anyone most of the community buys FW from china. Nobody admits it online, but it's basically an open secret. I even over hear fluffy players discussing putting in group orders to "there guy" that they use.

This probably also explains the lack of updates for rules. Why on earth would GW want to polish a product for recasters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Karol... this might be hard to belive but the entire world aren't complete and absolute dicks. in fact I sometimes wonder if your local player base is really as bad as yu think or if you just imagine it all

Hey look at the summer child.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

Snitches get stitches.

But jokes aside, you guys seriously feel the need to complain over some poor dude head to his boss while he is probably not even working ATM over something so trivial? I mean, you could also try starting a discussion with the guy first like real adults.

Honestly... The 'poor dude' and other people who are like "FW BAD! FW BROKEN!" are usually completely stuck in their ways, and besides real adults should not need to discus or debate basic stuff like that. Its about promoteing the hobby and enjoy it, and the store seems pretty stuck in its "janky" ways of handling things like FW. I dont think paying customers should EVER need to defend their selection of miniatures that is from the same company with completely legal rules. What they do in tournaments and beginner events however is totally up to them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.
Quite a lot off us would be willing to pay the prices allbeit begrudingly if it weren't for the often somewhat questionable resin quality delivered.

I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

 Brutallica wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

Snitches get stitches.

But jokes aside, you guys seriously feel the need to complain over some poor dude head to his boss while he is probably not even working ATM over something so trivial? I mean, you could also try starting a discussion with the guy first like real adults.

Honestly... The 'poor dude' and other people who are like "FW BAD! FW BROKEN!" are usually completely stuck in their ways, and besides real adults should not need to discus or debate basic stuff like that. Its about promoteing the hobby and enjoy it, and the store seems pretty stuck in its "janky" ways of handling things like FW. I dont think paying customers should EVER need to defend their selection of miniatures that is from the same company with completely legal rules. What they do in tournaments and beginner events however is totally up to them.

That's the exact type of thing grown mature people should be expected to do. Discuss basic stuff, not rat on a guy behind his back with limited information. It seems the real problem as usual is GW, who treats their store managers like garbage and puts them in an awkward spot through sales quotas and what does or doesn't count based on availability they set. Which is probably why they left it in the sotre managers hands, because it's easier for them to pass the buck.

BTW your still not really addressing the elephant in the room that's recasts.

My guess is FW resin is going to disappear in the near future anyway. It's just too easy to copy. Which is why nobody should be surprised the rules get minimal attention. Why through money and time at a terrible investment?

 harlokin wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.
Quite a lot off us would be willing to pay the prices allbeit begrudingly if it weren't for the often somewhat questionable resin quality delivered.

I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

The dreads are better but GOD forbid you ordered anything infantry from them. Also i wasted 3 hours fixing up decimator shoulderpads with heat.

Altough they do have topnotch custommer service.
However for the asking price and compared to other producers of resin fw is indeed sloppy.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.
Quite a lot off us would be willing to pay the prices allbeit begrudingly if it weren't for the often somewhat questionable resin quality delivered.

I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

The dreads are better but GOD forbid you ordered anything infantry from them. Also i wasted 3 hours fixing up decimator shoulderpads with heat.

Altough they do have topnotch custommer service.
However for the asking price and compared to other producers of resin fw is indeed sloppy.

Well to be honest, I keep thinking about ordering a Tantalus, but I'm terrified about the prospect of having to bend the sails in hot water.

 harlokin wrote:
I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

Chunky, boxy designs like most Imperial vehicles are usually pretty safe. That said, in addition to cast issues on thinner/more spindly sculpts, FW has done some weird things in the past. I once got a Vulture through an eBay auction that I suspected was recast, as it had big blobby lumps of resin in the wing roots preventing the wings from fitting. I ordered a Vulture straight from FW, and... same blobs of resin in the wing roots. I had to use a Dremel with a grinder attachment to actually fit the wings.

As a Drukhari player, if you want to see just how bad things can get, order a Tantalus or Reaper. I've yet to meet anybody who's received one with all the hull pieces intact, let alone ready to assemble without a few hours of correcting warpage.

 catbarf wrote:

As a Drukhari player, if you want to see just how bad things can get, order a Tantalus or Reaper. I've yet to meet anybody who's received one with all the hull pieces intact, let alone ready to assemble without a few hours of correcting warpage.

Same. I really want a Tantalus, but I dread having to heat-bend the sail into shape....

 catbarf wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

Chunky, boxy designs like most Imperial vehicles are usually pretty safe. That said, in addition to cast issues on thinner/more spindly sculpts, FW has done some weird things in the past. I once got a Vulture through an eBay auction that I suspected was recast, as it had big blobby lumps of resin in the wing roots preventing the wings from fitting. I ordered a Vulture straight from FW, and... same blobs of resin in the wing roots. I had to use a Dremel with a grinder attachment to actually fit the wings.

As a Drukhari player, if you want to see just how bad things can get, order a Tantalus or Reaper. I've yet to meet anybody who's received one with all the hull pieces intact, let alone ready to assemble without a few hours of correcting warpage.

Can rule out any hybrid kit as “safe” lol.
They are nothing of the sort.
The storm eagle and falchion remain my top nightmares to build.

Entire chaos dwarf army and never an issue.
Those 2, just no.

Well to be honest, I keep thinking about ordering a Tantalus, but I'm terrified about the prospect of having to bend the sails in hot water

I have to say, out of all the FW kits I've bought (which is a lot) the Tantalus is the WORST. Nothing lines up properly, you have to sand down and green stuff all the parts for it to fit together properly, and there are still gaps. Bad casting on my sail too, I cut off the little nubs at the end of the sail and replaced them with plastic ones from the Raider kit.

It also doesn't stand on its spindly little flight stand. I've had to cut a Voidraven flight stand in half and glue it to the bottom of the Tantalus to hold it up.

Definitely call GW and complain.

If it was me, I honestly wouldn't leave the store if they told me FW wasn't allowed. I'd continue playing and tell them to call the fething police because its my money, and my hobby and nobody tells me what to do with my fething time. It's their company and they should support it. All of it. It's not my fault others purchase second hand models.

I haven't seen a Tantalus in person, but I have seen Uraka the Warfiend and he looked pretty good (though I'm not sure if the owners had to do any fixing). I do want to buy Zhufor and some of the FW greater daemons and princes, but some of this talk has me doubting whether I should.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I haven't seen a Tantalus in person, but I have seen Uraka the Warfiend and he looked pretty good (though I'm not sure if the owners had to do any fixing). I do want to buy Zhufor and some of the FW greater daemons and princes, but some of this talk has me doubting whether I should.

Zhufor looks really great, I'm not sure if I prefer the bare headed version, or the terminator helm with teeth. I've always been tempted by the idea of a WE rhino rush army, but I'm put off by the old berserker sculpts.

 harlokin wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I haven't seen a Tantalus in person, but I have seen Uraka the Warfiend and he looked pretty good (though I'm not sure if the owners had to do any fixing). I do want to buy Zhufor and some of the FW greater daemons and princes, but some of this talk has me doubting whether I should.

Zhufor looks really great, I'm not sure if I prefer the bare headed version, or the terminator helm with teeth. I've always been tempted by the idea of a WE rhino rush army, but I'm put off by the old berserker sculpts.

You could Substitute with aos blood warriors.
Are the right size and have axes. Need some work potentially though on the foots and backpacks are needed.

I'd say it depends on age of the kit... And luck possibly. I own a Plague Hulk, Blight Drone, Necrosius, Plague Marine Upgrades and the old Nurgle Dreadnoughts and they are all outstanding kits, one of the Dreadnoughts had a little misscast and they needed some cleaning, but nothing overly complicated. Yes, their Resin is brittle and you have to be very careful with some things. But overall it's on a totally different Level than the finecrap GW sells you. Better quality resin I have from Wargame exklusive and maybe Anvil industry, other producers are worse than FW imo (Kromlech, Hitech, Puppets war). But overall Fw has decent quality in my experience. What I'm reading from their Lotr kits they're also very good. The prices are often extreme even for GW, but you pay what you're ready to pay.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

Snitches get stitches.

But jokes aside, you guys seriously feel the need to complain over some poor dude head to his boss while he is probably not even working ATM over something so trivial? I mean, you could also try starting a discussion with the guy first like real adults.

Honestly... The 'poor dude' and other people who are like "FW BAD! FW BROKEN!" are usually completely stuck in their ways, and besides real adults should not need to discus or debate basic stuff like that. Its about promoteing the hobby and enjoy it, and the store seems pretty stuck in its "janky" ways of handling things like FW. I dont think paying customers should EVER need to defend their selection of miniatures that is from the same company with completely legal rules. What they do in tournaments and beginner events however is totally up to them.

That's the exact type of thing grown mature people should be expected to do. Discuss basic stuff, not rat on a guy behind his back with limited information. It seems the real problem as usual is GW, who treats their store managers like garbage and puts them in an awkward spot through sales quotas and what does or doesn't count based on availability they set. Which is probably why they left it in the sotre managers hands, because it's easier for them to pass the buck.

BTW your still not really addressing the elephant in the room that's recasts.

My guess is FW resin is going to disappear in the near future anyway. It's just too easy to copy. Which is why nobody should be surprised the rules get minimal attention. Why through money and time at a terrible investment?

No, most grown mature people dont spend their time debateing if the sun is yellow, orange or blue, or if the moon is made out of cheese or not. He spend money on FW resin, he damn well should be able to use it in GW run stores/franchices end of story, its very simple. And if GW applauds this behaviour (id be surprised even with GW's quotas and restrictions) they should still hear the complaints and face the music. No reason to go undercover with things like this and debateing and spending your time convinceing an anti FW guy instead of having fun and playing the game with your GW/FW models.

BTW Still alot of people are paying for genuine FW models (atleast in my neck of the woods), regardless of your estimations, guesswork and fortunetelling, FW is still here, and people are still paying, i dont have the numbers, neither do you.

 catbarf wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I've not much experience of FW stuff, but the Leviathan I bought was one of the most straightforward and satisfying kits I've ever put together.

Chunky, boxy designs like most Imperial vehicles are usually pretty safe. That said, in addition to cast issues on thinner/more spindly sculpts, FW has done some weird things in the past. I once got a Vulture through an eBay auction that I suspected was recast, as it had big blobby lumps of resin in the wing roots preventing the wings from fitting. I ordered a Vulture straight from FW, and... same blobs of resin in the wing roots. I had to use a Dremel with a grinder attachment to actually fit the wings.

As a Drukhari player, if you want to see just how bad things can get, order a Tantalus or Reaper. I've yet to meet anybody who's received one with all the hull pieces intact, let alone ready to assemble without a few hours of correcting warpage.

Yes

all of my land raider upgrade kits (prometheus, helios, achillies), were fine as were my dreadnoughts, and tau crisis suits. the macharius had a bit of warping but it was easy to fix. i ordered a bunch of MK IV maximus suits and bolters for my 30K force and they seemed fine as well.

The storm eagle on the otherhand..................one of the worst abominations of a kit i have ever seen. definately not worth the cost. it was so warped that hot water didn't work. i had to use a heat gun to get it manageable enough to assemble and there were still huge gaps. not to mention the side panels were so thin i was afraid i was going to break them.

I still think GW has a lot of the blame to this, Poor support of the line over the years. And poor quality.

For a lot of factions its not even worth looking at the website Which i think causes more issues when something OP pops up, since players are asking why should all that effort just to let something like that in. Loosely tieing it into other 40k issues going on right now.

The last time we allow forgeworld in a tournament ended up with lots of complaints. Simply for the fact players felt they had no access to the rules in a reasonable way.

These things GW has the most power to fix.

I always wondered if they where selling crap resin as a way to make there big fans think of resin as a bad product so they stay within the GW brand.
Conspiracy and all that, But i not sure i hold enough of a high opinion on the company to think they really trying to do that.

Considering the rules are available online and in CA atleast points wise, accessability never has been better?
I remember a time where you had to order FW books in order to get the rules.


As for the Interbranch rivalries, i guess they are common in many bigger companies.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering the rules are available online and in CA atleast points wise, accessability never has been better?
I remember a time where you had to order FW books in order to get the rules.


As for the Interbranch rivalries, i guess they are common in many bigger companies.

This was before then, no one really cares here now. 40k is just not something people really care about passed very small group. Kill team is keeping it alive i think.

But even with the free rules, Its a huge pile to go though. In a bloated up time as well, Accessibility way better. But the Issues are still similar.
Poorly handled and in need of management to get its act together and work it out.

Apple fox wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering the rules are available online and in CA atleast points wise, accessability never has been better?
I remember a time where you had to order FW books in order to get the rules.


As for the Interbranch rivalries, i guess they are common in many bigger companies.

This was before then, no one really cares here now. 40k is just not something people really care about passed very small group. Kill team is keeping it alive i think.

But even with the free rules, Its a huge pile to go though. In a bloated up time as well, Accessibility way better. But the Issues are still similar.
Poorly handled and in need of management to get its act together and work it out.

The managemant doesn't need nor want to though, because booksales are the easiest and most recuring gians they can make.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering the rules are available online and in CA atleast points wise, accessability never has been better?
I remember a time where you had to order FW books in order to get the rules.


As for the Interbranch rivalries, i guess they are common in many bigger companies.

This was before then, no one really cares here now. 40k is just not something people really care about passed very small group. Kill team is keeping it alive i think.

But even with the free rules, Its a huge pile to go though. In a bloated up time as well, Accessibility way better. But the Issues are still similar.
Poorly handled and in need of management to get its act together and work it out.

The managemant doesn't need nor want to though, because booksales are the easiest and most recuring gians they can make.

Yup People keep buying.

TLDR; IMHO, don't play at a GW store. If you don't have a FLGS available, find someone's basement.

It's been a few years since I've set foot in a GW store. It was during WHFB End Times. I would go there at times to buy what I needed, since they have basically everything I could want as far as paints and minis. Everywhere else was a roll of the dice in the hopes they had the box or airbrush paint I wanted, or needed to wait on an order. I did, however, hate playing there, and I would take the time here to steer everyone away from it. I had to put up my guard every time I set foot in there.

I resent being pressured into sales, and that's what the store managers do. Unless their MO has changed, they operate understaffed and with intense pressure to sell in order to keep their job. It's incongruous with the relaxed atmosphere required to get the most fun out of moving plastic toy soldiers and rolling dice with some pals. Additionally, the floor space is usually too anemic to have more than a few players at a time, so in many cases, tournaments are right out.

The store went through managers seemingly every couple of months. It did not help build confidence for the way GW ran their business or treated their employees. It also didn't help keep customers returning, when GW representatives I built rapport with would disappear unannounced after every couple of visits. Perhaps I spent too much time thinking about why this was going on. I guess because they either hated the intense pressure from corporate to harass their customers for sales, or trying run a hobby store entirely by themselves for poor wages, or maybe they were pushed out by regional for not meeting a quota. Regardless, I didn't get the FLGS vibe from my GW store, ever.

I'm not going to spend any more time than I must, being crammed in a fart locker with some sweaty guy desperate to not let us leave without buying something. It feels greasy. I'd like to have fun with my hobby without wasting an ounce of anxiety on figuring out how to politely tell the store manager that I'm here to play, and not to buy. GW isn't know for making consumer-friendly policies, so I wouldn't hold your breath. If you want to play with FW models, you're probably going to have to do so at a friend's house.

Gotta agree with Joe. If you can't run your models at the store...don't play at the store. You can even politely tell them as much. A policy will continue to be a policy until it impacts their business or success.

I've never found a GW store a particularly good place to play (crap tables, crap terrain, etc.). If it's your only method of gaming I can understand the issues though.

There's no logical reason to ban FW beyond being petty. A decent GW employee would realize that growing the game/armies/enthusiasm is the main goal, not just "buy something in my store". As mentioned, he could even guide a player on how to order FW product direct to his store, etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.

Actually, it DOES come from the Memphis distribution center now. Pre-lockdown I ordered several FW orders at the beginning of the year and every single one was from the Memphis address regular GW orders come from.

There's plenty of reasons to 'ban' FW, you just don't happen to agree with them.

There's a difference.

 Elbows wrote:
Gotta agree with Joe. If you can't run your models at the store...don't play at the store. You can even politely tell them as much. A policy will continue to be a policy until it impacts their business or success.

I've never found a GW store a particularly good place to play (crap tables, crap terrain, etc.). If it's your only method of gaming I can understand the issues though.

There's no logical reason to ban FW beyond being petty. A decent GW employee would realize that growing the game/armies/enthusiasm is the main goal, not just "buy something in my store". As mentioned, he could even guide a player on how to order FW product direct to his store, etc.

My local GW is actually an awesome place to play. Top-notch terrain and tables, friendly employees, and all-around a good time.

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you-I fully believe there are crap GWs out there. Just that it's not a universal truth.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's plenty of reasons to 'ban' FW, you just don't happen to agree with them.

There's a difference.

No, actually there are not.

Picky picky here ...

"Some get so big, that they set up legit store fronts online."

If they're recasters, their store fronts ain't legit.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.

Actually, it DOES come from the Memphis distribution center now. Pre-lockdown I ordered several FW orders at the beginning of the year and every single one was from the Memphis address regular GW orders come from.

I'm going to go ahead and say that it looks like they are maintaining some items in Memphis then. The Realm of Battle tiles I've been doing on commission for someone had the UK FW address, not Memphis. The Thanatar that I got as part of my payment had Memphis.

Thanks for bringing that up though! It makes for an interesting thing to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's plenty of reasons to 'ban' FW, you just don't happen to agree with them.

There's a difference.

No, actually there are not.

People not having physical/legitimate/up to date copies of the rules for the items in question and people consistently trying to play recasts of top tier items or people trying to continually utilize tournament level 'stomp' lists are pretty reasonable to me.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.

Actually, it DOES come from the Memphis distribution center now. Pre-lockdown I ordered several FW orders at the beginning of the year and every single one was from the Memphis address regular GW orders come from.

I'm going to go ahead and say that it looks like they are maintaining some items in Memphis then. The Realm of Battle tiles I've been doing on commission for someone had the UK FW address, not Memphis. The Thanatar that I got as part of my payment had Memphis.

Thanks for bringing that up though! It makes for an interesting thing to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's plenty of reasons to 'ban' FW, you just don't happen to agree with them.

There's a difference.

No, actually there are not.

People not having physical/legitimate/up to date copies of the rules for the items in question and people consistently trying to play recasts of top tier items or people trying to continually utilize tournament level 'stomp' lists are pretty reasonable to me.

That's a problem regardless of Forgeworld-if I use 7 point Plaguebearers because I don't use CA, that's pretty much cheating.

And there are plenty of tournament lists (or just seal-clubbing lists) that won't feature a single FW item-again, the issue is not FW, it's people being jerks.