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Martel732 wrote:
Marine dreads have BS 3+. There's no reason for there to be marine dreads with BS 2+ other than oneupmanship Marines don't need ten different dreads anyway. The other units like Custodes are fine.

Csm have four, counting fw. See why csm players get cranky when people start talking about removing fw? Fw is also our only option for drop pods, nlos shooting, and flyers that don't look like they belong in AoS and super heavys that don't look like they came off the cover of some lame garage thrash band's latest album.

As somebody who has been using FW models sin 2002 ish

1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky.

1. this is normal for GW stores they don't want you to play anything they can't sell this includes all GW specialist games like BFG/epic etc...

2. historical FW has had a handful of minis that had bad rules (that were quickly fixed). but by comparison they have been very balanced if not over-priced for what they do compared to the main line rules for units.

So much so that many FW kits have been imported into plastics for the main line parts of 40k

Trygons, all the baneblade varients, valkyries, weapon options like dreadnought plasma cannons etc.. all started out life as FW only models.


I am of course also talking about alternate weapons loadouts and units, not FW cool looking components like Ryza pattern turret for your leman russ, or sealed turrets on the basilisk or hydra etc.. that have no real in game rules difference


As a rule for FW in my local area-if you bought it, GW makes it, and you have a copy of the rules by all means play with your toys. it is fun to see different things on the table instead of the same cookie cutter power lists.

Hardcore non-casual players might be a problem for you though.

Not sure I'd consider the leviathan dread remotely balanced.

Which sure explains why you always see Chaos fielding them!

Wait...

It's almost as if the hellforged leviathan has an inferior invul than the loyalist version, thus making it more vulnerable to anti tank weapons. Or perhaps the loyalists have some sort of "supplemental" rules making supposedly equal and equally priced units used by both factions unequal.

I must investigate!

Butcher cannons are disgustingly good.

Martel732 wrote:
Butcher cannons are disgustingly good.

Really? They're auto cannons with less range, str8 instead of str7, and an anti-leadership mechanic, for more points. Is there anything you don't think is too good besides Blood Angels?

Martel732 wrote:
Butcher cannons are disgustingly good.

Butcher cannons are actually overpriced by 25% .
Cue hades autocannon.

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Karol wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Well if we're going anecdotally, the group in my local shop (non GW, can bring whatever you like) is generally pretty against recasts. As in few if any of them would ever consider using them, and would be unlikely to even buy FW on ebay due to the risk of it not being real.

Karol wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
The "You can't use it because you can't buy it in stores" is such a false analogy...

So, hypothetical manager of this GW- can I not use my conversions? How about OOP minis? Both fall under the same logic they are using to ban FW.

Also-"FW rules are janky". Yeah, no. Someone needs to tell this store it's not 2002 any more...

You must have no recasters in your area then if in my store the manged said that FW models are okey, people woul waltz up and rarely, if ever bought any stuff from him. Specialy now that you can make some armies work without big kits.

Karol... this might be hard to belive but the entire world aren't complete and absolute dicks. in fact I sometimes wonder if your local player base is really as bad as yu think or if you just imagine it all

I personally don't care, but 80% of the fw i play against is chinaforge. Most openly talk about what a great deal it was and the rest i ask.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Butcher cannons are disgustingly good.

Butcher cannons are actually overpriced by 25% .
Cue hades autocannon.

How so?

Because the butcher Autocannon is a worse Hades autocannon with less range.
And how often do you see hades AC's

As stated above, Forge World orders are not counted in the sales number for a GW store. Ironically selecting in store pick up from your home computer also does not count for a stores sales numbers. GW would have to completely redesign how they track sales to account for that and to corporate, it’s not worth the effort.

The manager takes an extreme approach. A lot of managers tend to disuade forge world but it does cut into their bottom line. The manager at my old local store was cool with it being used but just asked that you didn’t try to sell it. The only time he banned a guy was a DKoK player who never bought anything and even then he only got banned when he tried to disused a customer from buying a vanilla guard kit.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Taco Bell and Pizza Hut are also the same company.

Doesn't mean that in "modern" retail (and restaurant, etc..) managers are still working their own baseline and sales targets, etc.., etc.. (which they can only do if they're allowed to manage it, to the best of their knowledge, to what works for them in their locality).

The difference is that those are franchises, where the manager actually owns the business and is paying the parent company (Taco Bell/Pizza Hut) for licensing rights. Taco Bell is not going to order Pizza Hut for you because that would mean selling another store's products.

GW store managers are direct employees of GW. Commissions based on individual store sales are a policy set up by GW corporate; the managers don't actually own the stores. If you go into a GW and order a FW model through their system, the money is going to the same place and the product is coming from the same place.

A better comparison would be an Apple store. They're all owned by Apple corporate, not individual franchises. If you walk into one and want to special-order a $5,000 iMac Pro, do you think the store manager is going to steer you towards buying a $1300 laptop that they have in-stock at the store instead? Of course not; Apple doesn't make an arbitrary distinction between the mass-market products they stock in their stores and the more boutique ones that they sell directly from their distribution centers.

With how downright ridiculous the profit margins are on FW (I've been told by someone who ought to know that they sell to their employees at 50% off and still make a profit), GW's policy of actively discouraging their stores from selling FW product seems absurd.

 catbarf wrote:

With how downright ridiculous the profit margins are on FW (I've been told by someone who ought to know that they sell to their employees at 50% off and still make a profit), GW's policy of actively discouraging their stores from selling FW product seems absurd.

GW staff only get 25% off FW. They get 50% off regular GW.

Problem is that you cannot buy Forge World through GW stores. You can have stuff sent to certain locations(Warhammer Citadel, Warhammer World, and I believe in the UK certain shops?), but even then you're not ordering it "through their system". You're just using the shop as a collection point.

Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.


Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

As i said, my primary store for 8 years was 80%+ recast. No one is paying full price for resin.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Problem is that you cannot buy Forge World through GW stores. You can have stuff sent to certain locations(Warhammer Citadel, Warhammer World, and I believe in the UK certain shops?), but even then you're not ordering it "through their system". You're just using the shop as a collection point.

I believe you can pick up FW from all UK stores.

And my position on this point is very much that this is GW's problem to fix. It's not reasonable for it to be the consumer's problem not being able to use their product in some of their own store (inconsistently) just because their system is stupid.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

Seems to me like you're using a bazooka to swat a fly and frankly I'm glad I'd never have the displeasure of dealing with you.

You understand that I'm not the person who put down the rules for my local stuff, yeah? I'm sitting on 3 units of Secutarii Peltasts and 2 of Secutarii Hoplites for my AdMech, then a fairly wide spread of stuff for my Guard(Vulture, Tarantulas, a Crassus) that I like to use from FW.

It went from "use whatever you want, whenever you want as long as you have the physical rules or a printout handy for your opponent to consult" to "max of 2 units, printouts for both you and your opponent and clear it with your opponent ahead of time".

And it was all because one person whose stuff was fairly nicely painted, kept plugging a Russian recaster in the shop whenever new people would ask where he got some of his centerpiece items.

Don't play in GW stores. Local stores don't care nearly as much.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And it was all because one person whose stuff was fairly nicely painted, kept plugging a Russian recaster in the shop whenever new people would ask where he got some of his centerpiece items.

So, if that is the attitude you have to tar everyone with the same brush because of a single bad apple then I don't know what to say...

You ban the guy as he is the problem, not FW.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And it was all because one person whose stuff was fairly nicely painted, kept plugging a Russian recaster in the shop whenever new people would ask where he got some of his centerpiece items.

So, if that is the attitude you have to tar everyone with the same brush because of a single bad apple then I don't know what to say...

You ban the guy as he is the problem, not FW.

Dude, read his full post instead of cherry picking.
You wouldn’t have needed to even post that if you had read it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And it was all because one person whose stuff was fairly nicely painted, kept plugging a Russian recaster in the shop whenever new people would ask where he got some of his centerpiece items.

So, if that is the attitude you have to tar everyone with the same brush because of a single bad apple then I don't know what to say...

I kind of feel like you're arguing against a position I haven't taken here or that I might have appeared to be taking. This is one of the issues that comes up, no matter who is involved, regarding 'The Rules' at local shops that none of us are privy to. Hell, the OP himself might not necessarily be aware of situations.

You ban the guy as he is the problem, not FW.

Problem is that, as someone so helpfully pointed out, GW managers aren't the official owners. My understanding is that they can't just "ban" someone but it requires corporate to get involved, and it involves law enforcement as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Problem is that you cannot buy Forge World through GW stores. You can have stuff sent to certain locations(Warhammer Citadel, Warhammer World, and I believe in the UK certain shops?), but even then you're not ordering it "through their system". You're just using the shop as a collection point.

Additionally, if you do that here in the US? Product isn't coming from the same place. It comes from the FW warehouses, not the Memphis distribution center.

Not sure if things have changed, but you used to be able to order FW through a GW store and it would be delivered there.

But all those limitations you mention are imposed by GW. Forge World isn't a separate company and never has been. If GW doesn't want it to be easy to order FW through their stores, doesn't want to integrate them into the same logistical chain, and doesn't want to reward their employees for selling customers expensive Forge World models- that's all on GW.

I can't imagine Apple ever coming out and saying 'hey, we've decided to put all our products over $1k into a separate brand- they're still Apple, but you won't be able to buy them in stores, they won't be part of our normal logistical chain so everything will have to be special-ordered, and our employees will encourage you not to buy them, but you can get them through our website if you really want.'

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

Kanluwen wrote:Problem is that you cannot buy Forge World through GW stores. You can have stuff sent to certain locations(Warhammer Citadel, Warhammer World, and I believe in the UK certain shops?), but even then you're not ordering it "through their system". You're just using the shop as a collection point.

In my experience, I can order FW stuff just fine through my local GW. Not that I have any reason to now, given that in the same amount of time it would take me to do that, I could just go straight to FW directly and pick up what I'm after in person.

I have never been able to order FW stuff through my local shop here in the US. That's why my statement was phrased as such.
I do know that the Battle Bunkers were able to order things, but never went to any of them.

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, there's another angle that really needs to get focused upon and it's the legitimacy of the models in question and the rise of recasting. We had a pretty draconian set of FW rules put down locally after someone kept steering others towards recasters at every opportunity.

I should think that if FW models were more readily available in-person, getting them legitimately might be more popular, although the prices are still a significant turn-off. At the very least the shops would know if models were being bought in-store and used in-store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.
Quite a lot off us would be willing to pay the prices allbeit begrudingly if it weren't for the often somewhat questionable resin quality delivered.

BrianDavion 787527 10776345 wrote:
Karol... this might be hard to belive but the entire world aren't complete and absolute dicks. in fact I sometimes wonder if your local player base is really as bad as yu think or if you just imagine it all

When I talk about something like this, I am not talking about my store. My store closed, so technicly I have no people to play anymore. I am talking about the whole country, and a few other countries too. Belarus and Russia is full of recasters. they make so much stuff, not just for themselfs, but they sell it to other countries. Some get so big, that they set up legit store fronts online.

If people can buy armies cheaper they will. No wonder the stores aren't okey with people being dead against stuff like FW. They don't even like, if people try to play games they don't run. Such people just take up tables for people that actualy do buy the stuff stores sell. And making people that buy stuff unhappy ends bad for stores. Now I have not seen this. But heard stories about how we had 2 stores, and how the mtg store decided to stop running drafts and disallowed trading at the store.

I mean the prices are just half the picture, the other half is the quality.

Polish and Russian recast models look better then FW originals, more crisp, no holes, no gummy barrels. Plus the dude that makes them can live 30 min away from you. Getting anything out of UK requires doing crazy stuff, and they always assume your trying to cheat them and when you finaly get the stuff it often has the same damage the first pice had. A guy at my store has 6 pairs of dreadnought arms, and not a single pair was good.