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I know over the years there's been a fair share of these sorts of threads. Really this post is more just a bit of therapeutic outlet from someone who's getting a bit cranky in the lockdown, but still, it's something that down get me down from time to time.

I'll admit it, I'm a sucker for the Guard FW models, mostly for design over actual practicality, especially the ridiculousness of them (I'm looking at you Malcador tank.) So far, I have a handful of Cyclops demo vehicles built and have a Valdor tank hunter waiting in the wings for when I feel my painting skills have advanced enough to do it justice.

So, having started to wean myself out of the beginner sessions I've started playing matches at my local GW store (which shall go unnamed) against a more seasoned crowd. Losing consistently, but that's all in the learning. The last time I was in-store, I was talking to a member of staff about a potential list which included my Cyclops, and he explained in no uncertain terms that the shop did not approve of the use of FW models, on the dual grounds of:

1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky.

Now I have been told not to play FW before there, though specifically that was in the context of beginner games, and I had assumed that it would be okay once I was playing outside of that, but apparently that's not the case. To be honest, it doesn't make me angry, but it's disheartening. I'm not inclined to build what I have paid good money for as I can't use it, and on the other end it's making me consider finding somewhere else where using my models would be fine. The issue with the latter is that I've put my roots down at the GW store and have met a bunch of really great people, and the staff also are generally really decent folk.

Rant over.

Are GW stores actually allowed (relatively speaking) to ban FW? Since it's a GW product? I mean if they were to do it, would that be something that you could phone corporate about and let them know the store is doing it? Otherwise, there's not much you can do, as stupid as it is nowadays.

Wayniac wrote:
Are GW stores actually allowed (relatively speaking) to ban FW?

Yes - it's up to the manager if they allow FW (or Specialist Games) in-store. IIRC if it's on the shelves they have to allow it (so AoS & 40k, Kill Team & LOTR after a major release, etc.), but everything else is manager's discretion.

That's really dumb. Honestly, I'd contact GW customer support and tell them about it, I dont think theyd be happy with managers discouraging FW.

You can order FW for store pickup, so by the logic of this manager they should also ban all direct order kits (half the Tyranid range for example!) because they "can't buy them in store". What a moron!

Wayniac wrote:
Are GW stores actually allowed (relatively speaking) to ban FW? Since it's a GW product? I mean if they were to do it, would that be something that you could phone corporate about and let them know the store is doing it? Otherwise, there's not much you can do, as stupid as it is nowadays.

I've got no idea about the intricacies about what the FW-GW relationship is exactly, as it seems to me that GW are deliberately obscure about it. The people at the store word it that they are 'sister companies', but if the money is going into the same account at the end of the day, what does it matter?

As far as I have looked around, there was somebody who did manage to get a response out of GW, the results of which are here but that doesn't really give any information that we don't already know.

How the stores run, is in part dictated by the manager.

The main store I play at is a Warhammer store, and no one bats an eye at forgeworld. One of the local players has a Death Korps of Krieg army (converted from Age of Sigmar Ghouls), and the manager himself is working on a 30k army.

Perhaps the manager is hesitant with folks bringing in models you can't get at the shop, as that could be hard for beginners, due to how FW rules and models have a more 'exclusive' feel to them. But, if your opponent has no issue with it, I don't see why it'd be a problem.

Based on my experience, I think your stores FW policy is in the minority.

jaredb wrote:


Perhaps the manager is hesitant with folks bringing in models you can't get at the shop, as that could be hard for beginners, due to how FW rules and models have a more 'exclusive' feel to them. But, if your opponent has no issue with it, I don't see why it'd be a problem.

As I say though, half the plastic GW range isnt available in store either so that logic makes zero sense.

 Stux wrote:

jaredb wrote:


Perhaps the manager is hesitant with folks bringing in models you can't get at the shop, as that could be hard for beginners, due to how FW rules and models have a more 'exclusive' feel to them. But, if your opponent has no issue with it, I don't see why it'd be a problem.

As I say though, half the plastic GW range isnt available in store either so that logic makes zero sense.

Forge world units are not in the codex, and webstore kits can be ordered to the store quickly for free shipping. I understand you point, but there is a difference between the accessibility of the units/rules.

When able, try to find another place to play that welcomes FW and split your time between each place as you desire. You should be able to play with your favorite models, but not throw away your relationships with people at the store.

Or you could always try the bridge burning approach and sit in store, on your phone and order your next FW model (having it delivered to the store for pickup)

Uk store managers are normally more open to things.

I can appreciate that pick-up games with random people at the store might well have a "no FW policy". However if you and a friend are playing at the store then surely if you both agree to it you should be allowed to use a FW model in your game.


The only downside for the GW store manager is that FW models can't be ordered in sort so the FW models, even if delivered to the store, don't count toward his/her sales targets (at least far as I'm aware).



FW is generally far more accepted today than in the past and FW is releasing new rules at some point very soon (likely held up only by the lockdown).



I'd say it might be worth sitting down and having an honest discussion with the store manager about relaxing some aspects of the policy. If that fails consider contacting GW central with a polite email expressing your concern and considerations and asking if they might perchance step in. You can even raise the issue of FW models counting toward managers sales when products are shipped to their store - thus showing that you understand and appreciate that the manager also has sales targets to meet and that if gamers are buying FW they aren't helping the manger even though its the same company.

 jaredb wrote:

 Stux wrote:

jaredb wrote:


Perhaps the manager is hesitant with folks bringing in models you can't get at the shop, as that could be hard for beginners, due to how FW rules and models have a more 'exclusive' feel to them. But, if your opponent has no issue with it, I don't see why it'd be a problem.

As I say though, half the plastic GW range isnt available in store either so that logic makes zero sense.

Forge world units are not in the codex, and webstore kits can be ordered to the store quickly for free shipping. I understand you point, but there is a difference between the accessibility of the units/rules.

Forgeworld kits can be ordered for store pickup too (at least in the UK where the OP is based), exactly the same as the direct order GW kits. There's no accessibility difference for the models compared to direct order GW kits.

Rules arent available in store yes, but they can be ordered for store pickup.

 Stux wrote:

Forgeworld kits can be ordered for store pickup too (at least in the UK where the OP is based), exactly the same as the direct order GW kits. There's no accessibility difference for the models compared to direct order GW kits.

Rules arent available in store yes, but they can be ordered for store pickup.

You can order for store pick-up but you can't order them from inside the store itself using the store computer nor have the staff member place an order. So any FW purchases don't go toward the stores sales targets nor any promotions etc... (eg say the store birthday purchase quotas for freebies)

So you have to order it yourself from the FW website on your own connection (eg phone or home computer). I believe its due to laws which mean if the store officially sold them in some capacity, GW would be required to make that feature open for all their 3rd party supplied stores as well and FW hasn't got the manufacturing capacity to support that kind of sales approach for their reisn models. At least that's the argument I recall reading a while back.

While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

 Stux wrote:
While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

Why?

If they standardise it that FW isn't allowed, it just create bad feels in stores where store managers did previously allow it.

Seems like GW is a lot more lenient with this than .... say .... Taco Bell disallowing you to order a Pizza Hut pizza to their restaurant or whatever.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:
While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

Why?

If they standardise it that FW isn't allowed, it just create bad feels in stores where store managers did previously allow it.

Seems like GW is a lot more lenient with this than .... say .... Taco Bell disallowing you to order a Pizza Hut pizza to their restaurant or whatever.

Massive false equivalence there! FW is made by GW. It's literally the same company.

Also, I'm very much of the view that all stores should allow it - and that this should be mandated by head office. The idea that you can buy an official, premium priced product for a game made by the same company and then be told you arent allowed to use it in the stores operated by that same company that are setup specifically to allow the playing of that self same game is so ridiculous I'm struggling not to use expletives.

The fact that the head office structures how it reviews the performance of its stores in such a way that disincentivises their managers from helping them sell FW is absolutely no excuse, it just makes the company look that much worse.

 Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:
While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

Why?

If they standardise it that FW isn't allowed, it just create bad feels in stores where store managers did previously allow it.

Seems like GW is a lot more lenient with this than .... say .... Taco Bell disallowing you to order a Pizza Hut pizza to their restaurant or whatever.

Massive false equivalence there! FW is made by GW. It's literally the same company.

Also, I'm very much of the view that all stores should allow it - and that this should be mandated by head office. The idea that you can by an official, premium priced product for a game made by the same company and then be told you arent allowed to use it in the stores operated by that same company that are setup specifically to allow the playing of that self same game is so ridiculous I'm struggling not to use expletives.

Taco Bell and Pizza Hut are also the same company.

Doesn't mean that in "modern" retail (and restaurant, etc..) managers are still working their own baseline and sales targets, etc.., etc.. (which they can only do if they're allowed to manage it, to the best of their knowledge, to what works for them in their locality).

And there can be no blanket permission for that across all stores in all countries across the world. There is not even a blanket permission to even play anything at all in GW stores. There are some hole-in-the-wall stores that will not allow you to play 40K or AoS, period. Perhaps demo some Shadespire or so.

The only thing that "might", in theory, be considered is a blanket ban on FW in GW stores (unless the miniature moves to plastic manufacturing, at which point it's rarely sold under the FW brand anymore, even if it comes from the FW department at GW (e.g. Blood Bowl, Necromunda) because that particular brand isn't targeted at the kind of consumers "most" stores try to get.

Restaurants are a false equivalence though. It's a ridiculous comparison. A meal is a set thing that you fully use there and then. A war game army is something you build up and work on over a long time. It just doesnt work at all as a comparison.

Of course there can be a blanket permission, dont be silly. If they dont have tables to play 40k that's fine. But the rule needs to be that all official models for a game that IS being played must be allowed in the store. Especially, doubly so, if they are CURRENT models the company sells.

If it’s a GW store, then you have to realize that you’re playing in a catalog show room. You are, in other words, getting to play in the store in exchange for volunteering to help advertise product. So if GW has a dusfunctional sales system, that’s how it’s going to be.

On the other hand, Forge World has the problems that:
* They models and rules are less accessible to new players.
* Forge World rule’s development has a bad history of obscurity, neglect, and people bringing up the obscure over powered items after going to the effort of getting there.

So if the manager wants to discourage Forge World at the store, and you want to show off your Forge World toys, what you need to do is be able to convince the manager that you’ll do your part to help sales. How much experience do you have with “Help the new player win, without being obvious about it” demo games?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stux wrote:
While that might explain the policy, it certainly doesnt excuse it.

This really needs to be standardised by GW's central office.

Why?

If they standardise it that FW isn't allowed, it just create bad feels in stores where store managers did previously allow it.

Seems like GW is a lot more lenient with this than .... say .... Taco Bell disallowing you to order a Pizza Hut pizza to their restaurant or whatever.

Yeah except we are talking about a trsding arm of the same company legally FW doesn't exisist as a company.

Also I have long suspected that that story is actually not about capacity it's about their inability to do quality control.

As Forgeworld is currently sold people who are going their are committed hobbyist who usually have knowledgeable about the kits or know were to find out how to fix things. Could you really imagine how frustrating it would be for new players to have such a sucky experience, I remember the introduction of fail cast and people being told to avoid entire armies as their line was 90% failcast. You could go through 20 blisters to get a fixable not even clean cast

As nice as most staff are their is no way enough of them could help with some of the issues you find in FW kits.

 Stux wrote:
Restaurants are a false equivalence though. It's a ridiculous comparison. A meal is a set thing that you fully use there and then. A war game army is something you build up and work on over a long time. It just doesnt work at all as a comparison.

It's separate brands targeting separate customers. For that purpose it's the same. Take any other company that manages multiple brands, more up-market and more mundane, Buick vs. Cadillac, 20 different Proctor & Gamble shower gels or shaving creams, whatever.

Merging them too much takes away the entire point of having FW as a separate brand which charges an extra buck of the crafted illusion of being the more mature, exclusive stuff, books with more muted colours, higher prices, etc.., etc..

Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky.

OP - I may have missed this in the thread, but have you talked to the actual manager about the policy? What you're saying seems to be coming from another customer. To your first point, there are also a TON of actual GW models you can't get at a GW store. Would you also not be allowed to use those? My local GW store (and every other GW store I've ever been to, which is admittedly a small number) is fine with FW models. That's why they have the in-store iPad. When someone wants something, the manager leads them over to it and they place an order that ships to the store (I've seen this done for GW AND FW models).

To your second point - I wouldn't say the rules are any more "janky" at this point than most of the GW rules, and, honestly, most of the FW stuff is under-powered at this point. That said. there IS a legitimate problem with accessibility as not everyone has FW books just laying around. This is pretty easily solved at my store by simply bringing said book to the store just like you would a regular codex. My local GW does make exceptions from time to time (for example most of the in-store tournaments do specify no Forge World), but in most of the pick-up games, FW is totally fine as long as you have the rules and as long as they aren't recasts or anything crazy like that.

It's possible you're just facing a "Gate-Keeper" type situation that the manager doesn't even know about. At which point, you have to ask yourself - if the manager says FW IS allowed, that group probably won't want to play against it, so you risk losing that group, but it may be worth it in the long run if they really are that up-tight.

 Brutallica wrote:
Defently call Games Workshop and tell them about that.

I second this.

So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

"1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky."

These are both valid reasons, I think.

Martel732 wrote:
So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

Yes. Because one is an official outlet for the game you bought your model from, and the other is an independent event.

I happen to think its dumb for an event to ban FW too, but at the end of the day it's up to the TO. Unless it's an official GW run event of course, in which case they absolutely need to allow FW.

 Stux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

Yes. Because one is an official outlet for the game you bought your model from, and the other is an independent event.

I happen to think its dumb for an event to ban FW too, but at the end of the day it's up to the TO. Unless it's an official GW run event of course, in which case they absolutely need to allow FW.

If GW would just move FW to legends, this would all be solved.

Tournaments are also one time specialist events, whilst a game store is a continual game playing spot where you could potentially play several times a week.

The two are very different environments. A tournament that bans something or has specific rules only affects that event for at most two days of a tournament; perhaps once a year. A game store on the other hand, is the main place of play for many where they will play their game for the majority of their time.

Martel732 wrote:
So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

"1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky."

These are both valid reasons, I think.

Think you're possibly bringing a little personal bias in on this Martel?

Fw can be a bit of a sore point for gw stores. The manager of my "local" (is an hour and a half drive local?) gw says she'd love to be able to sell fw at the store, as it would add to sales and prevent the whole having to tell someone "sorry, we can't get that here " scenario. I can understand why they might be a little reticent to allow the models.

Really it's all silly, gw stores should get credit for ordering fw items at the store. Gw not doing so is a bad policy.

As other posters have mentioned, there are GW models you can get through mail order only.

The last time I bought something at a GW store, it was FW and the manager helped me order it on an in-store computer. I didn't have to pay for shipping.

So is it technically true you can't order FW from GW stores? I don't think so.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So TOs can ban FW, but not GW store managers?

"1) If somebody saw a FW model being played and wanted to buy it, they couldn't get it from the shop, and
2) FW rules are janky."

These are both valid reasons, I think.

Think you're possibly bringing a little personal bias in on this Martel?

Fw can be a bit of a sore point for gw stores. The manager of my "local" (is an hour and a half drive local?) gw says she'd love to be able to sell fw at the store, as it would add to sales and prevent the whole having to tell someone "sorry, we can't get that here " scenario. I can understand why they might be a little reticent to allow the models.

Really it's all silly, gw stores should get credit for ordering fw items at the store. Gw not doing so is a bad policy.

Of course. But I think those reasons are perfectly valid. #2 is a big reason why I want them sent to legends.

FW is a sore point for more than just GW stores. ETC anyone?