What the title says: you're sitting at your hobby table and you knock over your pot of nuln oil. A tiny genie emerges from the bottle, and in a very high pitched voice, he says
"Freed, freed at last!!! Thank you mortal. I have very little magical powers, but I grant thee wishes three: you may redesign the rules for three 40k units you feel have unsatisfying, boring rules that don't match their fluff. Which do you choose?"
My wishes personally:
1) Hellions. How can you make a model that looks like THIS and give them rules that are like THAT? They have absolutely zero abilities that represent any kind of defensive agility making them die like flies, a wonky-ass melee weapon that is S4 AP- D2, making them good at fighting precisely no unit, and they have the exact same bog standard splinter weaponry basically everything else has, so why would you take them? And their rules have been garbage and boring for fething ever, give them something cool!
2) Death Jester. Please just make him fun to play again! Of course, this would require a basic morale mechanic more interesting than squads roll a "D6-LD+casualties and take some mortal wounds" probably.
3) Exalted Sorceror. The kit for them is AMAZING and has a billion different bits and bobs and custom thingies in it, and absolutely none of it does anything in game.
I only really know Imperial Guard and first three things that come to mind:
1. Vanquisher cannons (on the LR and the Macharius): make them better at tank hunting than the other options. If they must stay at Heavy 1, give them 2+ to wound a vehicle and flat 6 damage OR make their damage Mortal wounds against vehicles.
2. Malcador tank: give him some gimmick to make sense between the Leman Russ and Baneblade. My proposition: if it stays at less firepower than a LR for more points, let him at least fire those weapons even if enemy models are within 1'' and give him some Kind of ramming ability (maybe a permanent "Crush them" without CP, so WS2+ in a turn in which it has charged) => it could be a braketrough tank.
3. Conscripts: either make them cheaper than Infantry squads (but they are already pretty cheap) OR allow for Laspistol + Chainsword as weapons option (4x 30 S4 attacks from Catachan Conscripts with Straken and a priest Sound mean) OR allow the rest of the Guard units to fire on enemies within 1' of a conscript like the Valhallans (makes them mean tarpits) OR let them cost only 1/2 reinforcement points when brought back by the Valhallan Stratagem (or completely free for true human wave detachments).
1. Mutilators - They're an ugly kit and have been generally useless since their creation. On top of that, they are also too expensive in terms of points. I don't really like anything about them, but we've seen so many attempts to make them useful over the years (that have all failed), that I'm convinced only a magic genie could make them work.
2. Basic Dreads - They were such a core unit in the very early days, and they haven't aged well, but I have a ton of them and try to squeeze one or two into every list
3. Dark Apostle - With the latest update, these guys are at least playable, but IMO, there's no comparison to what they are in the rules vs what they are in the fluff. Reading the Word Bearers trilogy set my expectations pretty high for Dark Apostles. Towering infernos of psychic fury, wreathed in demons and covered in coruscating warp energy. It would be hilarious to see a cartoon where a Dark Apostle from the fluff meets a Dark Apostle from the game and they compare notes ...
terminators armour can't get lower in its normal save then +3.
banners, swords, antenas, cloaks etc are not something one can shot with or at.
Each model has a 180 degree frontal and back facing. you don't see what is in your back facing unless you are infantry.
1) (Chaos) Land Raider
It's just... boring? I mean, partly it's because the concept itself is a bit silly, you have that long range lasercannons on your transport that wants to get close... but at least it would be cool to have rules that make the Land Raider do both of the things it wants to do.
2) Plague Hulk
Outstanding model. Its rules are a worse soulgrinder for I think 60 points more. A sword that huge should hurt a bit when it hits.
3) Blight Drone
Same as above. Right now it's a worse Bloat Drone with an 80 point price increase.
Karol wrote: terminators armour can't get lower in its normal save then +3.
banners, swords, antenas, cloaks etc are not something one can shot with or at.
Each model has a 180 degree frontal and back facing. you don't see what is in your back facing unless you are infantry.
That's not three units, you might as well wish for GW's management and rules writing teams to simultaneously realize that the models would sell better if the game rules were clearly written and well though out and the inter- and intra-faction balance wasn't so janky.
If I had to choose just three units I'd probably do something about the ridiculous mess that is the DE character roster, and I don't even play DE. There's a few turds in my Marines, but that roster is big enough to be able to afford a few turds.
1: Fellblade accelerator cannon AE shells: Do you see the size of this gun? And it's basically a railgun? And you're telling me your force field can stop it? Nope. Everything the same but gains: ignores invulnerable saves. Dead knights coming up....
2: Dreadnought close combat weapons (or chainfists, chainclaws, you get it): Sweep attack: make 2 hit rolls for each attack, streangth: user, ap-2, d1. Try to bog my contemptor down will you?
3: Hellforged Dreadclaw: this unit and any units embarked on it ignores the matched play tactical reserves rules, ie it can arrive turn 1, with that contemptor. Why? Because we were doing this 10,000 years before you thin blooded loyalist dogs and we know how to do it better.
the_scotsman wrote: What the title says: you're sitting at your hobby table and you knock over your pot of nuln oil. A tiny genie emerges from the bottle, and in a very high pitched voice, he says
"Freed, freed at last!!! Thank you mortal. I have very little magical powers, but I grant thee wishes three: you may redesign the rules for three 40k units you feel have unsatisfying, boring rules that don't match their fluff. Which do you choose?"
My wishes personally:
1) Hellions. How can you make a model that looks like THIS and give them rules that are like THAT? They have absolutely zero abilities that represent any kind of defensive agility making them die like flies, a wonky-ass melee weapon that is S4 AP- D2, making them good at fighting precisely no unit, and they have the exact same bog standard splinter weaponry basically everything else has, so why would you take them? And their rules have been garbage and boring for fething ever, give them something cool!
2) Death Jester. Please just make him fun to play again! Of course, this would require a basic morale mechanic more interesting than squads roll a "D6-LD+casualties and take some mortal wounds" probably.
3) Exalted Sorceror. The kit for them is AMAZING and has a billion different bits and bobs and custom thingies in it, and absolutely none of it does anything in game.
Vanquisher Tank Gun: It should, on a hit, do reliably better than weapons that aren't antitank weapons against heavy vehicle. GW is afraid of something doing more than 1d6 damage per shot, while it's also completely fine to do 2 [or even 3!] damage on 2d6 shots from a weapon the same price. [or a 125 point Vindicator, which gets 1d6 shots of the Vanquisher for 1d6 damage at higher strength and way cheaper.]
Railcannon: Same thing as the Vanquisher. Tank guns should be tank guns.
Macharius Tank: So, it's basically two Leman Russes stuck together in all things, but thanks to Grinding Advance, it only shoots as well as one. Actually, it shoots worse since it doesn't have 2 Lacannons. This is actually more a problem with Grinding Advance and the basic premise that "tank guns were universally unworthy of being tank guns on debut, so rather than fixing the weapon profiles we're going to patch each faction's one main battle tank and ignore the rest" than the Macharius, but still...
Any beastie that isnt a tank. Immune to tank shock.
A 60 tonne tank might get squished by a 60 tonne beastie.
Papapffft. Elephant noises vs volvo horn.
+6 move when it can get to spam that can.
Deff Orks
Deff from above. Deep strike. May shoot on landing and get a assault move. And if they skull a beer or ask if its them grots, thez suposta be bashing, they get anuver free go.
Just to buck the trend...I think the very last thing 8th edition needs (in any way) is to buff more units. If anything, heaps of units/combinations need to be removed/reduced. The game and units function reasonably well outside of special rules and stratagems. Introducing the combinations is what broke the game for me and stopped me playing.
Give Allarus terminators a 3+ invuln and thunder hammers
Take BATTLESUIT keyword away from Ta'unar Supremacy Armor
Give Fire Warriors some decent anti-vehicle
Elbows wrote: Just to buck the trend...I think the very last thing 8th edition needs (in any way) is to buff more units. If anything, heaps of units/combinations need to be removed/reduced. The game and units function reasonably well outside of special rules and stratagems. Introducing the combinations is what broke the game for me and stopped me playing.
We're talking about a magical genie granting wishes here, not some unrealistic nonsense about GW removing SKU bloat.
Unsatisfying, boring units? Sadly we're limited to 3 or I'd delete the whole Primaris line.
If we're allowed to count all flavours of Terminator Squad as a single choice, I'd give them an extra wound and +1 to their non-invulnerable save rolls (the roll, not the characteristic).
I'd make Imperial Guard Veterans Troop Choices and 6ppm, while normal guardsmen become 5ppm.
And as a bonus 4th I'd delete the MMM order and make FRFSRF only 1 extra shot.
This list right here , Though minus the Mauler Fiends and switch in Blight Drones. Forge Fiends imo are just an amazing looking model with a lack luster 4+ BS that only gets worse with a 28 inch range? wtf? They shouldn't have a Stratagem required to make them an "okey" unit. It should be integrated. Then they might be worth the stupid amount of points they cost. Blight Drones cuz it's an expensive forgeworld kit that looks amazing, but compared to a Bloat Drone lacks in all respects for 50 points more. Mutilators just need a new everything.
#1 - Lictors. Having recently played with them, I see just how deeply flawed they are. They need to be the Tyranid version of snipers, but using close combat to get there. Perhaps being able to attack models within 6". Something like this NEEDS to be done for them.
#2 - Chaos Space Marines. What did it take for Primaris to see action? An extra wound, extra attack, better range, and AP -1/-2/-3 on three weapon options, all for a very reasonable points amount. Something of similar boost is needed for Chaos Space Marines. Let the Marks of Chaos do something, even if just for these basic troopers (and, obviously, their Chosen compatriots). Feel no Pain for Mark of Nurgle - absolutely free. Shoot on death for Mark of Slaanesh, absolutely free. Fights twice in close combat for Mark of Khorne, absolutely free. 5+ Inv for Mark of Tzeentch, absolutely free.
#3 - Carnifex. I'm going to date myself here, but there was an era when Carnifex were not just shooting units. They were close combat battering rams. They were THE "distraction Carnifex"! I just don't know what to do with them now. They have too few inaccurate attacks to kill infantry, and are too low a strength to deal significant damage to tanks. Either make their attacks x2 Strength, or up their accuracy and number of attacks, or even both!
Knosso Prond gets the Ministorum key word so she can be fielded with Taddius, Pious and Gotfret.
I'd give Espern Locarno the Astra Telepathica Keyword.
I'd fix Aleya, but that will depend in part upon what they do in PA, because she's only worth upgrading if they give SoS another unit or two. For example, if you used Aleya without Valerian, she could make all SoS in her detachment count as troops, but that only matters if there's a generic SoSHQ to finish off the Battalion, and even then, without strats, relics and WL Traits to support them there's really no point. My fear is that PA will augment SoS only when they are Talons; having no interest in Custodes, that wouldn't cut it for me.
In which case my third choice might be slight changes to Inquisitors; all it would take is clarification that they don't break docrines/ sacred rites etc. even when they are in an army as part of an Inquisition detachment.
I'd like it even better if they granted their Ordo Keyword as an additional trait to chamber militant units in their detachment. This would mean that Deathwatch and Grey Knights keep their doctrines and chapter tactics still count as Ordo units. This allows Inquisitors to buff chamber militant units as if they were acolytes without minimizing their effectiveness as Marines/ Sisters. Some might argue that this could be abused, and it's possible there's some validity to that.
Yarium wrote: #1 - Lictors. Having recently played with them, I see just how deeply flawed they are. They need to be the Tyranid version of snipers, but using close combat to get there. Perhaps being able to attack models within 6". Something like this NEEDS to be done for them.
#2 - Chaos Space Marines. What did it take for Primaris to see action? An extra wound, extra attack, better range, and AP -1/-2/-3 on three weapon options, all for a very reasonable points amount. Something of similar boost is needed for Chaos Space Marines. Let the Marks of Chaos do something, even if just for these basic troopers (and, obviously, their Chosen compatriots). Feel no Pain for Mark of Nurgle - absolutely free. Shoot on death for Mark of Slaanesh, absolutely free. Fights twice in close combat for Mark of Khorne, absolutely free. 5+ Inv for Mark of Tzeentch, absolutely free.
#3 - Carnifex. I'm going to date myself here, but there was an era when Carnifex were not just shooting units. They were close combat battering rams. They were THE "distraction Carnifex"! I just don't know what to do with them now. They have too few inaccurate attacks to kill infantry, and are too low a strength to deal significant damage to tanks. Either make their attacks x2 Strength, or up their accuracy and number of attacks, or even both!
I think the intention of GW to make chaos marines attractive is two fold.
a) Gut cultists until they are inferior guardsmen at 4ppm. This was achieved through making cultists not eligible for chapter tactics and NUKING the stratagem that made them a semi threat.
And after this was done they proceeded to......
b) Lower CSM to 11 ppm and making you run Red Corsairs in your list. Then give you back the cultist strat they destroyed but apply it to CSM models. Also, lets also give Red Corsairs a chapter tactic that is so good you can not take CSM models.
Excellent balance work by GW. Another chaos/xenos level band aid fix. But I agree on 1 and 3.
1. Make Terminators worth fielding without having to pile stratagems on them. They are Marine's most iconic elite unit and should be scary on both attack and defense, shooting and melee.
2. Land Raiders, same as above. It's not like they don't cost enough points to justify some sort of boost.
3. Eldar Guardians, give them back Shurican Catapults with a 24" range! I have never forgiven Gav Thorpe for crippling shuricats at the start of 3rd edition. No wonder the Eldar are a dying race if they insist on giving their citizen militia tin-foil armour and a 12" range gun. Give them 24" so they can skirt around the edges of the firefight plinking away. Or dig into cover with their heavy weapons and still accomplish something beyond being ablative wounds for then gun.
1) Ghazhgkull Thrakka - Greater Waaagh! affects ORK units instead of ORK INFANTRY. - "Goffs is da Best" changed to re-rolls ones to hit for melee and shooting weapons. - If you have both Makari and him, they deploy as one unit and then split.
2) Burna boyz - Burna(Melee) is up to 2 damage - Pyromaniaks changed to give +1 attack in addition to moral immunity - Point costs changed to body and weapon costing 5 each to make spanners less of a joke.
3) Mekboy Workshop - Models getting kustom jobs can shoot, move and charge as normal, kustom jobs are applied at the start of the next battle round. - More rivets adds d3 to the wounds repaired with the mek or big mekaniak rule if a mek is overseeing the repairs instead of downgrading it to 3. - For every model with the Mekaniak or Big Mekaniak rule, add 1 to the roll for getting an extra speshul
the_scotsman wrote: What the title says: you're sitting at your hobby table and you knock over your pot of nuln oil. A tiny genie emerges from the bottle, and in a very high pitched voice, he says
"Freed, freed at last!!! Thank you mortal. I have very little magical powers, but I grant thee wishes three: you may redesign the rules for three 40k units you feel have unsatisfying, boring rules that don't match their fluff. Which do you choose?"
My wishes personally:
1) Hellions. How can you make a model that looks like THIS and give them rules that are like THAT? They have absolutely zero abilities that represent any kind of defensive agility making them die like flies, a wonky-ass melee weapon that is S4 AP- D2, making them good at fighting precisely no unit, and they have the exact same bog standard splinter weaponry basically everything else has, so why would you take them? And their rules have been garbage and boring for fething ever, give them something cool!
2) Death Jester. Please just make him fun to play again! Of course, this would require a basic morale mechanic more interesting than squads roll a "D6-LD+casualties and take some mortal wounds" probably.
3) Exalted Sorceror. The kit for them is AMAZING and has a billion different bits and bobs and custom thingies in it, and absolutely none of it does anything in game.
I ask the genie to kndly got back into the bottle, and bring all the nuln oil with him. I NEED my nuln oil.
1. Mutilators - They're an ugly kit and have been generally useless since their creation. On top of that, they are also too expensive in terms of points. I don't really like anything about them, but we've seen so many attempts to make them useful over the years (that have all failed), that I'm convinced only a magic genie could make them work.
1) fix the tank guns. Only a few of them actually see use while there are so many great ideas that just need something to make them worth it.
2) Give heavy weapon squads some sort of ability to hide behind other squads. As of now, only mortar squads work because any other squad just gets removed without a second thought. The same goes for command squads and special weapon squads. They just get destroyed without ever really doing anything. At most, they can be used for tricks but not as line units. This however affects multiple units, and the only way I know to get around that is to bring them all back together into a traditional platoon. If it would be a platoon again, I would also give sergeants their lasguns back (mine are modelled with them and it's a pain to remember) and perhaps, for the whole CP thing, let each platoon give a few.
3) This is difficult as there are several other units that need some help. But I think I would be going for sentinels and give them the ability to move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty. That's an ability that all such light vehicles should have in general, but they're the Guard version!
Maybe I'm just gatekeeping here but it feels like some missed the point of this thread. It's not about making bad (or even outclassed) units good (though "good" is in the title) but at least based on Scotsman's examples, it's making boring units not boring (and also good). I think if points drops fix the unit, it's not really eligible here. So anyway, I will add:
1. Harlequin Shadowseers. Everybody knows DJs suck and Troupes have really boring weapons, but have you guys looked at the Harlequin powers?! Outside of Twilight Passageways, they're pretty bad/at odds with the strengths of the army/hard to cast! Going back to 7th you had cool, fluffy, powerful powers and WLTs. Honestly, that codex is the lamest miss of them all in 8th (outside of the very first ones). Just very one-note and boring. And I'd be hopeful that PA fixes it with strats but I just know GW's going to phone it in (I don't know how yet, but they will...)
2. Hive Crones. Huh? T6, 4+ save? HUH!? Another lazy C+P from 7th that JUST. DOESN'T. WORK. Plus, rather than think about how to translate the special vector strike ability, they just dropped it off. Fix the datasheet; you're charging $80 for the plastic, you owe us at least that much. And btw, honorable mention to Lictors, Forgefiends, and Carnifexes, but other folks already posted good points on those guys. Also, Dimachaerons are even worse than Hive Crones but picking FW for this exercise is cheating.
3. Stompa. Okay, I don't play Orks, so maybe I'm out of my element here. But imagine paying $100+/800 points or whatever and getting *that*. Sure, you can pump some of your limited Kustom Jobz into it! Sure, you can hamstring your army with a detachment and spend 4CP to DS it (LMAO GWWTF). If you do those things, it becomes bad, rather than utter crap! Yeah, you were gimping yourself to begin with and you had to divert resources from the rest of your army, but that giant piece of plastic you bought/converted/painted is now in the same daylight as passable! Imagine! There are no words.
Yeah, I'm sad about the Wraithknights and Heirodules that I own that suffer from the same ignominy, but a) they cost half the points and b) they were stupid OP for the rest of their lifespan (okay obviously not the Heirodules). I didn't play them in 7th but I'm okay with the cosmic justice there. I don't think the Stompa has ever really been anything more than okay (maybe some of the FW variants were OP, I don't really know). I just think it's funny that the concept of the Stompa is basically "imagine if Knights were really bad and part of an unsupported army". I wonder how many GW has sold this edition?
Yeah, I can't help but feel the Stompa is kept purposefully bad because it's a little embarrassing that it costs exactly the same in $ as the much smaller/cheaper 'nauts...
1.Terminators: relentless, and AP-1 and 2 is ignored. So either you're getting your 2+ save, or you are getting hit by something that needs to default to your 5+ invuln (unless in cover of course) Been said before, but I really don't understand GW's thought process with what gets to ignore the heavy weapon movement penalty. Vehicles....nope, flyers (looking at you Corvus Blackstar)...nope, dreadnoughts...nope. Now, infantry lugging heavy weapons I get.....yet, Havocs and Sisters get rules to ignore the penalty. What? Just dumb really. "Heavy" needs a complete revision.
2. (Speaking of...) Corvus Blackstar: Elite hi tech flyer, coolest Imperial flyer, sucks butt on the table. POTMS for starters, Blackstar rocket launcher Corvid warhead S6 -2AP D1, Dracos warhead, S4 Ap-1, D1 Ignores cover.
3. Hellions: -1 to hit, -1AP on hellglaive, Eviscerating Flyby becomes a rule, not a strat.
And one bonus not really related to topic, since Guilleman, razorback spam and storm raven spam is not a thing anymore.....drop cost of Assault cannon to 20pts or 40pts for twin. Cheers.
1. Mutilators - They're an ugly kit and have been generally useless since their creation. On top of that, they are also too expensive in terms of points. I don't really like anything about them, but we've seen so many attempts to make them useful over the years (that have all failed), that I'm convinced only a magic genie could make them work.
I know I'm double-dipping on the thread a bit but I'm genuinely baffled that GW didn't change Boots on the Ground to target AIRCRAFT instead of models with the FLYER battlefield role when they added that keyword. BotG was added to reign in Eldar Flyer spam, gunships that can go into hover mode and act like a tank ought to be able to cover objectives and not get you counted as tabled if they're the last thing you have, so long as they stay in hover mode so they don't pick the AIRCRAFT keyword back up. None of the Eldar FLYERs can do that.
...and edit, because FLYERS with Hover Jets explicitly don't lose AIRCRAFT when in hover mode. Not that it's any less stupid that a flyer designed to be able to hover and loiter over the battlefield supplying close fire support that is also functionally identical to any other hover-tank while doing so and loses all the advantages of being a FLYER doesn't lose all the disadvantages of being a flyer at the same time.
Also, the obligatory rant that SM transport segregation is dumb.
So, for units that I'm particularly subjectively interested in seeing be better (not necessarily the most dire awful in the game)...
Chimera: Drop the price another 10/15pts, these are just not worth running at their current cost, especially given their paltry firepower. Either that or make the Multilaser fearsome and able to be shot freely on the move and allow Orders interaction from within the vehicles.
Leman Russ Vanquisher: Honestly, given how outclassed the current Vanquisher cannon is we could make the gun S16 AP-4 and it wouldn't make most people bat an eye in the current metagame, and it'd still only be marginally more effective than a generalist battlecannon against the typical T6/7 Sv3+ vehicles in the game. The fact that the dedicated tank hunter is worse at tank killing than literally every other option, including the dedicated anti-infantry version, is appalling.
This thread is inherently selfish, so I will of course focus on Tyranids:
Carnifex - Make it tougher than a fething Rhino. Firstly, give it a natural 2+ save. The only one in the Codex. Next, WS3+. The idea that it hits as often as a Guardsmen is patently ridiculous. And as many wounds as a Rhino.
Hormagaunts - 4 points each. I'd also make ScyTals worth a damn (+1 A per pair, not just for having 4+ of them), but that's an army wide thing rather than being specific to H-Gaunts.
Tyranid Monsters in general - Bump anyone lower than T8 by +1 across the board (Barbed/Scythed Hierodule would be T9 minimum). And minimum 3+ hit in Close Combat for things like Carnifexes, Tervigons, Trygons, Mawlocs, etc. (ie. anything that doesn't already hit on a 3+). Again, the very notion of them being as "good" at hitting in close combat as Guardsmen is just mind-boggling (this applies to Daemon Engines as well BTW).
Vaktathi wrote: Either that or make the Multilaser fearsome and able to be shot freely on the move and allow Orders interaction from within the vehicles.
The Multi-Laser has been sadly left behind, keeping the rules it originally had in 3rd, and not being updated to reflect the edition it exists in. Heavy 3? It should be Heavy 6.
And then there are other structural issues for... well... all of 8th's rules. I don't mind there being a penalty for moving and firing with vehicles, but if there were actual vehicle rules (rather than just keywords), you could allow for things like "Turret weapons are stabilised and do not suffer penalties for move and fire" as you'd be able to define what a "turret", "sponson" and so on were.
The current rules read like GW had a competition for who could design the most mind-numbingly boring HQ with the fewest relevant options and the least synergy with his own faction.
In terms of the improvements I'd like to make:
- Replace his useless aura with an ability that's actually worth a damn. Preferably something that affects the entire army.
Change the Shadowfield into something along the lines of 5++ with a -1 to hit.
- Bring back option for Clone Field in some form.
- Bring back options in general. e.g. Ghostplate Armour (4+/6++), Soul Trap (Each time the Archon kills a Character or Monster, he heals 1 wound and gains +1S and +1A for the remainder of the game), Combat Drugs, etc.
- Bring back option for a Blaster (without having to go into Legends)
- Add options for Wings, Skyboard and Jetbike.
- Make weapons - particularly melee weapons - actually worth a damn. e.g.:
- Blast Pistol: Increase range to 12"
- Venom Blade: S- AP-1 D2, Poison 2+
- Agoniser: S- AP-4 D1, Poison 3+
- Huskblade: S: User AP-2 Dd3, Wither: wound rolls of 5+ inflict d3 Mortal Wounds in place of normal damage.
The above are just possibilities but the overall idea is to both improve the DE melee weapons (they're supposed to be glass cannons, not wet socks), but also to differentiate them a bit. Above, I made the Agoniser more effective against multi-wound units, whilst the Huskblade is something of a wild-card, lacking the advantage of Poison but having the potential to deal a chunk of Mortal Wounds. Also, given that the Huskblade is unique to the Archon (implying that it's a good deal rarer), it seemed reasonable that it should have a more noteworthy effect.
2) Haemonculus
Whilst not quite as bad as the Archon the Haemonculus is still a very boring unit with abysmal weapon options.
- I'd like to see his aura adjusted somewhat. I'm not even sure he should have a conventional aura. Maybe instead something like "At the start of the game, if your army contains one or more Haemonculi, choose d3+1 non-Vehicle units and then 2 additional (non-Vehicle) unit for each Haemonculus after the first. The chosen units receive +1 to their Inured to Suffering rolls for the duration of the game.
Again, the details can be tweaked but the idea is that the units have been modified prior to the battle, so they don't need the Haemonculus to sit next to them the entire time.
- I'd give Haemonculi a heal ability similar to that of Apothecary-type units.
- As with Archons, I'd make various changes to their weapons:
- Hexrifle: Assault 1 S- AP-3 D2 Sniper, always wounds on a 2+
- Liquifier Gun: +1S
- Venom Blade: S- AP-1 D2, Poison 2+
- Agoniser: S- AP-4 D1, Poison 3+
(same as above)
- Electrocorrosive Whip: S+1 AP-1 D2, Haywire
- Mindphase Gauntlet: S8 AP-3 Dd3, Mental Onslaught: This weapon wounds against Ld instead of Toughness.
- Scissorhand: S+1, AP-3, D1 The user can make 2 additional attacks with this weapon. Reroll failed wound rolls with this weapon.
Again, just rough ideas but overall trying to make the weapons more useful and have them serve some different rolls, rather than all of them doing near enough the same thing but with different levels of aptitude.
Again, the very notion of them being as "good" at hitting in close combat as Guardsmen is just mind-boggling (this applies to Daemon Engines as well BTW).
I'd love to hear from Cruddace (or better yet, Phil Kelly since he actually plays Nids) what the reason was to make Nid monsters evolved to excel at CQC WS 3. I'm pretty sure in the Chambers days, the Carnifex (the only monster back then besides the HT, really) was not a bumbling oaf and actually had good WS. Obviously, this issue with monsters is a legacy holdover because I'm pretty sure even the biggest Tyranid hater, when faced with a blank slate, would sit down and say "yeah, this big guy? It makes sense that he's got middling attacks, accuracy and strength." And then of course the kicker is giving a Fex crushing claws and all of a sudden he's hitting on 5s outside of the charge -- 2 pips worse than a dread, it's laughable.
I get I'm supposed to be happy with where Nids are right now and I am in a macro sense. And everybody has micro-issues with codexes. But Nids have SO. FETHING. MANY. of those stupid little needling issues and I get frustrated just thinking about them.
The current rules read like GW had a competition for who could design the most mind-numbingly boring HQ with the fewest relevant options and the least synergy with his own faction.
In terms of the improvements I'd like to make:
- Replace his useless aura with an ability that's actually worth a damn. Preferably something that affects the entire army.
Change the Shadowfield into something along the lines of 5++ with a -1 to hit.
- Bring back option for Clone Field in some form.
- Bring back options in general. e.g. Ghostplate Armour (4+/6++), Soul Trap (Each time the Archon kills a Character or Monster, he heals 1 wound and gains +1S and +1A for the remainder of the game), Combat Drugs, etc.
- Bring back option for a Blaster (without having to go into Legends)
- Add options for Wings, Skyboard and Jetbike.
- Make weapons - particularly melee weapons - actually worth a damn. e.g.:
- Blast Pistol: Increase range to 12"
- Venom Blade: S- AP-1 D2, Poison 2+
- Agoniser: S- AP-4 D1, Poison 3+
- Huskblade: S: User AP-2 Dd3, Wither: wound rolls of 5+ inflict d3 Mortal Wounds in place of normal damage.
The above are just possibilities but the overall idea is to both improve the DE melee weapons (they're supposed to be glass cannons, not wet socks), but also to differentiate them a bit. Above, I made the Agoniser more effective against multi-wound units, whilst the Huskblade is something of a wild-card, lacking the advantage of Poison but having the potential to deal a chunk of Mortal Wounds. Also, given that the Huskblade is unique to the Archon (implying that it's a good deal rarer), it seemed reasonable that it should have a more noteworthy effect.
2) Haemonculus
Whilst not quite as bad as the Archon the Haemonculus is still a very boring unit with abysmal weapon options.
- I'd like to see his aura adjusted somewhat. I'm not even sure he should have a conventional aura. Maybe instead something like "At the start of the game, if your army contains one or more Haemonculi, choose d3+1 non-Vehicle units and then 2 additional (non-Vehicle) unit for each Haemonculus after the first. The chosen units receive +1 to their Inured to Suffering rolls for the duration of the game.
Again, the details can be tweaked but the idea is that the units have been modified prior to the battle, so they don't need the Haemonculus to sit next to them the entire time.
- I'd give Haemonculi a heal ability similar to that of Apothecary-type units.
- As with Archons, I'd make various changes to their weapons:
- Hexrifle: Assault 1 S- AP-3 D2 Sniper, always wounds on a 2+
- Liquifier Gun: +1S
- Venom Blade: S- AP-1 D2, Poison 2+
- Agoniser: S- AP-4 D1, Poison 3+
(same as above)
- Electrocorrosive Whip: S+1 AP-1 D2, Haywire
- Mindphase Gauntlet: S8 AP-3 Dd3, Mental Onslaught: This weapon wounds against Ld instead of Toughness.
- Scissorhand: S+1, AP-3, D1 The user can make 2 additional attacks with this weapon. Reroll failed wound rolls with this weapon.
Again, just rough ideas but overall trying to make the weapons more useful and have them serve some different rolls, rather than all of them doing near enough the same thing but with different levels of aptitude.
Will think about unit #3.
These are really fun and make me think of some of the more interesting implementations of rules in 7th (i.e. like wounding against leadership). It really gives me a "what could have been" feeling about if DE had had a later-7th book rather than an earlier-7th and GW had put a bit more thought into it. Oh, and I guess you'd have to pretend that GW would give DE options rather than take them away...
3 Units I'd make rules for and make them useful?
I'll start with the low hanging fruit:
1: Rough Riders would actually continue to HAVE rules and therefore be a cool fast attack option for IG. I'm not sure I'd even change their current rules but lose the strange cavalry keyword that basically excludes them from all traits, orders, etc. One of the best units for conversions and variety in the game.
2: I second the whole list of terminator suggestions. Mine mirror: +1 wound, +1 to the save roll, etc.
3: Snipers (of any type): The sniper rifle needs to be ap-3.
Dark Eldar you'd think would have some sort of specialized sniper unit or characters, that sounds like something they'd be into, with character assassinating poison or something to terrorize squads of troops from unseen vantage points or paralyzer rounds for capturing prisoners or the like. I'm suprised they don't have anything in that vein now that I think about it.
From playing against it - mediocre shooting with low, degrading BS, heavy weapons with your choice low range and number of shots or low AP and it dies to a stiff breeze. Basically a worse helbrute for more points.
Jidmah wrote: From playing against it - mediocre shooting with low, degrading BS, heavy weapons with your choice low range and number of shots or low AP and it dies to a stiff breeze. Basically a worse helbrute for more points.
It's especially sad when you consider a double butcher cannon contemptor is only 10 points more.
Just be sure to remember that that 'genie' is undoubtedly a lord of change that will whisper into the ears of GW writers to make other rules that will render the ones you asked for useless a week later.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Just be sure to remember that that 'genie' is undoubtedly a lord of change that will whisper into the ears of GW writers to make other rules that will render the ones you asked for useless a week later.
So basically like the time between when a new codex/ supplement drops and the FAQ is released.
Jidmah wrote: From playing against it - mediocre shooting with low, degrading BS, heavy weapons with your choice low range and number of shots or low AP and it dies to a stiff breeze. Basically a worse helbrute for more points.
er yesn't. the issue lies not just with it but also with the units supposedly making it work, because god forbid a daemonengine is worth something without support.
Spoiler:
For a starter, it is better then a hellbrute until you factor in price.
It has access to some of the best weapons chaos has to offer aka the Hades AC however is also terrible plattform.
The units that would make it dangerous , aka lord discordant is a failure in design, as in, his +1 to hit aura should've been on warpsmiths, making a daemonengine gunline actually work.
It's also indeed not much more survivable without support then a hellbrute, requireing either a sorcerer or MoP to get buffed.
It further does not get traits so unlike Alpha legion hellbrutes it get's hindered in durability baseline aswell.
Vice versa it is also the only source of a Hades AC plattform, that kinda works, the Helldrake would need to be able to ignore modifyers to have it's hades AC work which is a shame for a gun that shoots phosphorshells rinsed with hellfire.
It's also annoying because the medicore CSM predator doesn't get access to it and the access to it is severly restricted overall-
then look wise, whilest i like the Dinobot it's not for everyone.
In other words it's holding hostage some of the coolest equipment, is neither durable nor accurate enough to use said equipment and requires like all daemonenegines massive stacking of suppot to be worht it's salt.
This is also, if you indeed want to run daemoneengines that you'd field butcher cannon decimators OVER the forgefiend despite the Butcher cannon beeing overpriced comparatively to the Hades AC and the decimator beeing even more flimsy then the forgefiend.
Bloodcrushers: Should be heavily armored things that crash in and pulverize. GW has never done them right.
Flamers of Tzeentch: perfect in 5th, flame template does wounds on a 4+ w/no save, cheap, deepstrike. They won me so many games. Now...meh profile and far less than they were.
Greater Daemons: as a whole, they fall too quickly. They just need a survival boost.
alextroy wrote: 1) Celestine and the Gemina Superia: Back to being one unit. Make the Fly Girls Good Again!
2) Chaos Space Marines: The unit needs to be good so that there will be actual Chaos Space Marines in a Chaos Space Marines army!
3) Tactical Marines: I know Primaris are the new hot thing, but the stalwart of the OG Marines needs to be good too!
in fairness tac marines ARE in a pretty good place right now.
Intercessors get double the wounds, triple the attacks, 25% more range and additional AP for just +5 ppm. With ABR they even get triple the ranged attacks for +1 point. Tacticals are worse than useless.
Hmm, I'm a little stuck on what to pick for my third unit. I'm currently torn between:
a) The Destroyer Lord: Not the worst but fails to live up to his potential due to some really baffling design decisions - like giving a melee HQ an aura that can only buff a long-range shooting unit. .
or
b)The DE Succubus. I've done the other two DEHQs so I'm tempted to round it off and do the last one. Though tragically it isn't in the purview of this thread to fix the problem that DE only have 3 generic HQs to begin with. Anyway, my first fix would be to give her weapons that are actually worth a damn (I've already covered Agonisers but I'd basically take the rules for the Blood Glaive artefact and give them to the standard Glaive.). Then, I'd remove her aura entirely and instead change her focus to fighting enemies - especially characters - one-on-one. Put simply, I'd have her be a dedicated gladiator, rather than a leader (under my rules, we'll already have the Archon and Haemonculus for that).
or
c) The Harlequin Troupe Master. Mainly because it would be an opportunity to revise the godawful Harlequin weapons so that they're not just different flavours of boring. (What is it with xenos having the least interesting weapon rules? )
The current rules read like GW had a competition for who could design the most mind-numbingly boring HQ with the fewest relevant options and the least synergy with his own faction.
In terms of the improvements I'd like to make:
- Replace his useless aura with an ability that's actually worth a damn. Preferably something that affects the entire army.
Change the Shadowfield into something along the lines of 5++ with a -1 to hit.
- Bring back option for Clone Field in some form.
- Bring back options in general. e.g. Ghostplate Armour (4+/6++), Soul Trap (Each time the Archon kills a Character or Monster, he heals 1 wound and gains +1S and +1A for the remainder of the game), Combat Drugs, etc.
- Bring back option for a Blaster (without having to go into Legends)
- Add options for Wings, Skyboard and Jetbike.
- Make weapons - particularly melee weapons - actually worth a damn. e.g.:
- Blast Pistol: Increase range to 12"
- Venom Blade: S- AP-1 D2, Poison 2+
- Agoniser: S- AP-4 D1, Poison 3+
- Huskblade: S: User AP-2 Dd3, Wither: wound rolls of 5+ inflict d3 Mortal Wounds in place of normal damage.
The above are just possibilities but the overall idea is to both improve the DE melee weapons (they're supposed to be glass cannons, not wet socks), but also to differentiate them a bit. Above, I made the Agoniser more effective against multi-wound units, whilst the Huskblade is something of a wild-card, lacking the advantage of Poison but having the potential to deal a chunk of Mortal Wounds. Also, given that the Huskblade is unique to the Archon (implying that it's a good deal rarer), it seemed reasonable that it should have a more noteworthy effect.
2) Haemonculus
Whilst not quite as bad as the Archon the Haemonculus is still a very boring unit with abysmal weapon options.
- I'd like to see his aura adjusted somewhat. I'm not even sure he should have a conventional aura. Maybe instead something like "At the start of the game, if your army contains one or more Haemonculi, choose d3+1 non-Vehicle units and then 2 additional (non-Vehicle) unit for each Haemonculus after the first. The chosen units receive +1 to their Inured to Suffering rolls for the duration of the game.
Again, the details can be tweaked but the idea is that the units have been modified prior to the battle, so they don't need the Haemonculus to sit next to them the entire time.
- I'd give Haemonculi a heal ability similar to that of Apothecary-type units.
- As with Archons, I'd make various changes to their weapons:
- Hexrifle: Assault 1 S- AP-3 D2 Sniper, always wounds on a 2+
- Liquifier Gun: +1S
- Venom Blade: S- AP-1 D2, Poison 2+
- Agoniser: S- AP-4 D1, Poison 3+
(same as above)
- Electrocorrosive Whip: S+1 AP-1 D2, Haywire
- Mindphase Gauntlet: S8 AP-3 Dd3, Mental Onslaught: This weapon wounds against Ld instead of Toughness.
- Scissorhand: S+1, AP-3, D1 The user can make 2 additional attacks with this weapon. Reroll failed wound rolls with this weapon.
Again, just rough ideas but overall trying to make the weapons more useful and have them serve some different rolls, rather than all of them doing near enough the same thing but with different levels of aptitude.
Will think about unit #3.
These are really fun and make me think of some of the more interesting implementations of rules in 7th (i.e. like wounding against leadership). It really gives me a "what could have been" feeling about if DE had had a later-7th book rather than an earlier-7th and GW had put a bit more thought into it. Oh, and I guess you'd have to pretend that GW would give DE options rather than take them away...
Thanks. And yeah, it's really rather sad how little it would take to inject some fun and flavour into the DEHQs (and the book in general). Same with Corsairs - you could copy and paste their 7th edition entries and you'd already be about 90% done, yet it's now been, what, 3 years and they still haven't got a single HQ choice of their own. You'd think with 8th doing so well they could afford to hire a writer who actually gives a damn about xenos.
Vaktathi wrote: Dark Eldar you'd think would have some sort of specialized sniper unit or characters, that sounds like something they'd be into, with character assassinating poison or something to terrorize squads of troops from unseen vantage points or paralyzer rounds for capturing prisoners or the like. I'm suprised they don't have anything in that vein now that I think about it.
Unfortunately, a lot of the DE assassination options don't really work properly.
Spoiler:
- Hexrifles are currently just basic Sniper Rifles, but whilst other races can take whole units of them DE can only take them on on HQ choice and one squad sergeant - both of which are melee models.
- Poison Tongue Archons can take the Soul-Seeker, which is a sniper pistol artefact. Unfortunately, Poison Tongue is the worst Kabal to begin with, and the Soul-Seeker has too few shots to be a credible threat. It also doesn't get to benefit from the ability of its own Kabal (Poison Tongue lets you reroll 1s to wound with Poison Weapons . . . except in the case of its own artefact ). If it was Pistol 3 instead of Pistol 2 and got the rerolls to wound, it might actually be able to properly threaten characters.
- Mandrakes seem like they should fill this role but they get no benefits against characters and the actual Mandrake assassin character was removed entirely.
- Lhamaeans also seem like good candidates for assassins but are hampered by a pitiful number of attacks combined with wonky rules (they have guardsman-character statlines . . . but no Character protection) and the Rule of Three. Plus, as above, the Kabal that could make best use of them (Poison Tongue) is also by far the weakest and least useful in every other area.
Make Burna Boyz actually worth taking again. Make their base save 5+ (all Ork elite units should have this at minimum, if not better tbh), and make burnas a flat D6 shots rather than D3. Make it so that the melee profile mode of the burna gives them +1 to wound and +1 damage against vehicles. Bam, now they have the actual jack of all trades unit right here.
Assuming Warbikerz stay at the same cost, give them an inherent -1 to hit against shooting attacks thanks to their exhaust clouds and allow them to gain an additional D3 attacks when they successfully charge. These rules would also cross over to the Nob Biker variant.
Trukks should be able to let units that disembark to charge even after the Trukk has moved.
Honorable Mention: The Stompa. This thing needs to have a baseline invuln. of 4+ at its price and to change its damage table entirely. Make it so it doesn't start degrading until after it goes down to 10 wounds and allow it to have the same disembark rule as the trukk. Reduce its points to 500-600 points range and allow it get Klan traits even in a SH Auxiliary detachment.
Pretty much everybody has said land raiders... so I will also say land raiders. Honestly just giving them a 5++ to match terminator saves would work, along with dropping their points a bit. Chaos ones could stand to get some weapon choices (would be nice to get reaper/butcher cannons...) but otherwise durability and points are the biggest fixes needed.
To go with that, the also popular CSM/Tactical picks. I'll just count them as one since they're mostly identical. I would say... maybe treat them like veteran squads. As in getting extra special weapons, melee weapons, etc. Maybe not quite so many as a veteran squad, but enough that all the special weapons in a base box can be used. Really hammer into that difference between primaris and tactical squads. And as for how to differentiate chaos marines...
Make cult marines 2W. It solves a whole bunch of problems all at once (plague marines being useless, berzerkers and noise marines being glass cannons) and basically lets them be the chaos equivalent of intercessors.
Jidmah wrote: It's a transport for delivering assault troops first and a gunboat second. It would be nice if it could actually do its primary role.
I feel that the inability to disembark from transports - even Assault or open-topped transports - after they've moved is a big misstep from 8th.
Would it really break the game if the rule was something like "if an Assault Transport or Open-Topped transport moves, its passengers may still disembark. However, if they do so, then they must be placed within 3" of the vehicle and cannot otherwise Move or Advance in the movement phase."?
(Land Raiders would have an Assault Transport rule or keyword.)
Cynically everything can be fixed by sufficient points reductions - I think however some units have some more fundamental problems.
I agree the predator is bad - but thats just because 175 points for (theoretically) 6 buffed up autocannon shots and 2 lascannons with a 11 wounds (so degrading), T7/3+ defensive statline is a joke. Knock it down towards 130-140 points and it would still be boring (because new stuff gets loads of special rules baked in) but it would be respectable enough.
Same with the forgefiend - which at least gets a 5++. But the reality is a relatively small number of shots on base BS 4+ has a high probability of disappointment (in a world of many modifiers). GW made the decision long ago that the 5++ was a good trade for having lower WS/BS. But then they started throwing out 5++ saves as if they are nothing. So the daemon engine platform is just overcosted for what it is.
Similar story with Hellions. Right now, incredibly fragile, don't do much beyond die. Knock them down a couple of points though, and you potentially have great movement, shooting, melee. Just spam them everywhere.
Jidmah wrote: It's a transport for delivering assault troops first and a gunboat second. It would be nice if it could actually do its primary role.
I feel that the inability to disembark from transports - even Assault or open-topped transports - after they've moved is a big misstep from 8th.
Would it really break the game if the rule was something like "if an Assault Transport or Open-Topped transport moves, its passengers may still disembark. However, if they do so, then they must be placed within 3" of the vehicle and cannot otherwise Move or Advance in the movement phase."?
(Land Raiders would have an Assault Transport rule or keyword.)
Many armies can deep strike units with 80+% chances of making their charge and there are multiple instances of units which charge turn one by just moving/advancing across the board. If you'd just change all open topped/former assault vehicles to allow disembarking as part of their charge move I'm fairly sure nothing would break - especially considering the high cost of transports have in general.
1) Bloodthirster: Make this unit the TRUE close combat monster god it deserves to be! No degradeable statline, 4++ invul, 2+ armor and demon stratagem works so you can give him 3++. And a anti fallback rula akin to skarbrand.
2) Terminators: Give em atleast 1 wound more.
3) Maulerfiend: He needs alot of help, i suggest siegecrawler rule that makes him move in ruins and WS 3+ for starters.
Tyel wrote: Cynically everything can be fixed by sufficient points reductions - I think however some units have some more fundamental problems.
I agree the predator is bad - but thats just because 175 points for (theoretically) 6 buffed up autocannon shots and 2 lascannons with a 11 wounds (so degrading), T7/3+ defensive statline is a joke. Knock it down towards 130-140 points and it would still be boring (because new stuff gets loads of special rules baked in) but it would be respectable enough.
Same with the forgefiend - which at least gets a 5++. But the reality is a relatively small number of shots on base BS 4+ has a high probability of disappointment (in a world of many modifiers). GW made the decision long ago that the 5++ was a good trade for having lower WS/BS. But then they started throwing out 5++ saves as if they are nothing. So the daemon engine platform is just overcosted for what it is.
Similar story with Hellions. Right now, incredibly fragile, don't do much beyond die. Knock them down a couple of points though, and you potentially have great movement, shooting, melee. Just spam them everywhere.
To be fair most tanks are bad
Predators
Hammerheads
Part of it is T7 flat sucks
GW was way too conservative on wound counts and Damage values
Not to mention the additional mess of the stucking plaster fixes applied to IG and Repulsives, here have free shots because we are GW and can't see that this will screw the balance of these weapons across vehicals to
Like a battle cannons has exactly the same stats as a Rapid fire battle cannon, it just costs 68 points less for same BS skill. Not to mention can get reroll number of shots for free.
Vanquisher cannons vrs Railguns vrs Heavy Laser Destroyer
15 points vrs 30pts vrs 40pts
Number of shots is stationary or half distance
2 vrs 1 vrs 4
3+or 4+ vrs 4+ or 5+ Vrs 3+ to hit
Like seriously WTAF how is it a shock nobody takes such rediculous over costed trash?
Part of it is T7 flat sucks
GW was way too conservative on wound counts and Damage values
Imo just changing the wound chart back to pre-8th, so S4 and 5 aren't wounding T7 on 5+. It's also little weird that the Predator only has 11 wounds to the Rhinos 10, considering it previously had a frontal armor of 13 to the Rhinos 11.
I'm not as much concerned about the wounds as the lack of T8 on the Predator. The Exorcist was also 13/11/10 pre-8th edition, but it translated to T8 and W12 in the 8th Edition Index at the same time the Predator got T7 W11.
alextroy wrote: I'm not as much concerned about the wounds as the lack of T8 on the Predator. The Exorcist was also 13/11/10 pre-8th edition, but it translated to T8 and W12 in the 8th Edition Index at the same time the Predator got T7 W11.
Exorcists have always been slightly tougher than the standard rhino chassis because all the ornamentation on the front and sides is extra armour.
alextroy wrote: I'm not as much concerned about the wounds as the lack of T8 on the Predator. The Exorcist was also 13/11/10 pre-8th edition, but it translated to T8 and W12 in the 8th Edition Index at the same time the Predator got T7 W11.
Exorcists have always been slightly tougher than the standard rhino chassis because all the ornamentation on the front and sides is extra armour.
I'm pretty sure the Predator was also 13/11/10 exactly like the Exorcist.
Tyel wrote: Cynically everything can be fixed by sufficient points reductions - I think however some units have some more fundamental problems.
I agree the predator is bad - but thats just because 175 points for (theoretically) 6 buffed up autocannon shots and 2 lascannons with a 11 wounds (so degrading), T7/3+ defensive statline is a joke. Knock it down towards 130-140 points and it would still be boring (because new stuff gets loads of special rules baked in) but it would be respectable enough.
To get it down to 135 points with two Lascannon sponsons you'd have to get the base price with just the turret gun down to 85. ...actually, considering where the Hunter and Stalker are sitting that sounds about right. You'd need to knock another 10 points or so off the Vindicator though.
#3 - Carnifex. I'm going to date myself here, but there was an era when Carnifex were not just shooting units. They were close combat battering rams. They were THE "distraction Carnifex"! I just don't know what to do with them now. They have too few inaccurate attacks to kill infantry, and are too low a strength to deal significant damage to tanks. Either make their attacks x2 Strength, or up their accuracy and number of attacks, or even both!
This is purely about melee fexes right? cause shooting ones are great
for sure. I was just checking if he thinks Dakkafex are too inaccurate with too few dice to deal with infantry or something like the description gave, because they actually have the best BS in the dex and the cheapest source of S6 dakka, they chew infantry up. So I'm guessing he was just talking about melee ones but wanted to be sure he knows that you can still get good mileage from the old Carnifex.
Dakkafex has been the optimal for like a decade now tho
grouchoben wrote: Transports of nearly all varieties desperately need a look. Chief among them Landraiders, Devilfish & Corvus Blackstars.
Is there atm one Transport that is actually worth it ?
Raiders and Venoms because they don't generally give up action economy.
The core problem with transports is that they're intended to make units FASTER and as they currently exist they make units SLOWER 9 times out of 10. You either move up the board and give up a shooting action, or you jump out immediately and...why did you buy a transport?
Transports as their rules currently work just don't operate in "three-turn 40k" which is what 8th has become. A unit that waits 1 turn to be able to do its thing just ends up getting killed after accomplishing nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Giving predators POTMS would be an improvement. Marines should want to move, including their tanks.
Honestly, there are few enough situations where I look at a vehicle and think "that should be penalized for moving and shooting" that I feel like vehicles should just have an "Artillery" keyword that conveys additional restrictions in the same manner as FLYER, FLY, CHARACTER, Etc.
By default, vehicles and monsters should be able to move and fire their weapons. Then, you segregate out stuff like Basilisks, Broadsides, Whirlwinds, Wyverns, Doomdsay Arks etc and say "you guys are the stationary vehicles"
Nitro Zeus wrote: for sure. I was just checking if he thinks Dakkafex are too inaccurate with too few dice to deal with infantry or something like the description gave, because they actually have the best BS in the dex and the cheapest source of S6 dakka, they chew infantry up. So I'm guessing he was just talking about melee ones but wanted to be sure he knows that you can still get good mileage from the old Carnifex.
Dakkafex has been the optimal for like a decade now tho
Shame the hades autocannon still Stuck on the dakkafiend, would Love a twin hades autocannon turret, atleast that one would be worth the 40- 60 pts.
#1 Purestrains. Not complete gak by any means, just completely redundant and pointless. The dex is literally named after the unit. Make it a desirable choice because they are so iconic and this annoys the hell out of me. They were 110% nerfed to push new model sales and it's so unbelievably blatant that this one actually disgusts me.
#2 Berzerkers. The rules are fine. They just need a points drop. World Eaters are so fuckin iconic to 40k and they aren't being seen because of a couple of Points of baggage on their datasheet.
#3 Tactical Marines. Goes hand in hand with Rhinos and Drop pods. These units are the absolutely core of the aesthetic and feel of 40k to me. It's depressing that they have been made so redundant, apparently consciously so. A points rebalance to themselves and their transports oughta do it. (Or maybe one in the opposite direction for their wildly OP superduper big brothers would be better).
#1 Purestrains. Not complete gak by any means, just completely redundant and pointless. The dex is literally named after the unit. Make it a desirable choice because they are so iconic and this annoys the hell out of me. They were 110% nerfed to push new model sales and it's so unbelievably blatant that this one actually disgusts me.
Yeah uh, this one. Whoever decided that regular, bog-standard ass deep strike was worth the loss of subfaction traits AND a points hike from 12ppm to 15ppm AND a swap from Troops with Obsec to Elites AND a loss of every stratagem and unit interaction in Codex Nids that might make genestealers good was a moron.
They're so utterly redundant when acolytes and metamorphs exist it's not funny. And I have 2 full Space Hulk sets worth of genestealers
Actually you see Berzerkers, if they get access to mobility, hence AL beeing atm the secondary pick beyond the possessed.
The reason you atm don't see berzerkers is also folded into the reason why you don't see most Transports, which has to do with the 3 turn syndrom scotsman has pointed out.
Nitro Zeus wrote: for sure. I was just checking if he thinks Dakkafex are too inaccurate with too few dice to deal with infantry or something like the description gave, because they actually have the best BS in the dex and the cheapest source of S6 dakka, they chew infantry up. So I'm guessing he was just talking about melee ones but wanted to be sure he knows that you can still get good mileage from the old Carnifex.
Dakkafex has been the optimal for like a decade now tho
I know the Dakkafex is good. I have two of them. I'd like my other 12 'Fexes to be useful though.
Nitro Zeus wrote: This is purely about melee fexes right? cause shooting ones are great
You mean one particular config of a Carnifex is great.
Yep just like most units that have a pretty optimal loadout
in an ideal world there wouldn't be an "optimal" allways use loadout.
Cue slaanesh mark for CSm... or such nonsense.
That's been an inherent problem in the system for as long as it has existed. Even in 2nd when weapons had one profile against Vehicles and a different profile against infantry there was still generally only one or two "good" configurations because you couldn't split fire. Which is really strange in a system where most squads are closer to Tac Marines with their 10,000+ potential configurations* than to Incursors with their eight.
I'm not sure that's a problem with a good solution. Warmachine had much more varied stats unit-to-unit and evaluating a list still generally came down to "can I handle DEF 18 ARM 12 and DEF 12 ARM 22?" because if you could handle those two extremes then anything the wasn't that good died if you looked at it funny and it strongly encouraged skew lists. There's something to be said for a game where the answer to "How do I handle 500 Imperial Guardsmen?" isn't wildly different from the answer to "How do I handle four Imperial Knights?"
* That's actually not an exaggeration. 9 choices for heavy/special weapon X 16 sergeant options of pistols, combi-bolters, and melee weapons X 8 more options for the Sergeant's off-hand X squad sizes from 5-9 is 8000+ options, plus another 3000 for the special case for squad size 10 where it's 6 choices for heavy weapon X 3 choices for special weapon X all the serg options. In practice 90% of those loads are meaningless right out of the gate because any squad size over MSU is ruled out by Morale, but 1600+ potential configurations on the MSU is still mental.
the_scotsman wrote: By default, vehicles and monsters should be able to move and fire their weapons. Then, you segregate out stuff like Basilisks, Broadsides, Whirlwinds, Wyverns, Doomdsay Arks etc and say "you guys are the stationary vehicles"
This is probably my number 1 general want from 9th edition/8.5th edition.
I'm possibly even willing to just remove the heavy rule full stop. There isn't any obvious reason why say Havocs and Retributors should ignore it beyond the recognition they would be rubbish without it.
But with GW having made that recognition, surely the same applies to just about every comparable unit in everyone else's codex?
You could then as you say have Artillery rules or something for weapons/platforms that are clearly meant to be stationary. Or such weapons could have a Doomsday Ark style profile.
Otherwise you end up with the rather incongruous (but accurate) reality that dark lances have to be cheaper than blasters (and still suck), because -1 to hit when you move is *worse* than having 18" longer range.
And anything heavy with a 4+ BS basically never moves, because heavy would hurt enough even without the absurd number of units on the table can have a -1 to hit, if not more.
I think Purestrains are just screwed. They, metamorphs and acolytes all essentially fill the same slot (charge stuff, tear up with massed rending claws) - and there isn't the design space to be meaningfully different.
I've not done the maths, but I'm not really sure Abbs occupy a meaningfully different design spot - or at least when armed with picks and roadsigns. I guess if they all had hammers - but its going to be niche, and the current points don't have it make sense.
the_scotsman wrote: By default, vehicles and monsters should be able to move and fire their weapons. Then, you segregate out stuff like Basilisks, Broadsides, Whirlwinds, Wyverns, Doomdsay Arks etc and say "you guys are the stationary vehicles"
This is probably my number 1 general want from 9th edition/8.5th edition.
I'm possibly even willing to just remove the heavy rule full stop. There isn't any obvious reason why say Havocs and Retributors should ignore it beyond the recognition they would be rubbish without it.
But with GW having made that recognition, surely the same applies to just about every comparable unit in everyone else's codex?
You could then as you say have Artillery rules or something for weapons/platforms that are clearly meant to be stationary. Or such weapons could have a Doomsday Ark style profile.
Otherwise you end up with the rather incongruous (but accurate) reality that dark lances have to be cheaper than blasters (and still suck), because -1 to hit when you move is *worse* than having 18" longer range.
And anything heavy with a 4+ BS basically never moves, because heavy would hurt enough even without the absurd number of units on the table can have a -1 to hit, if not more.
I think Purestrains are just screwed. They, metamorphs and acolytes all essentially fill the same slot (charge stuff, tear up with massed rending claws) - and there isn't the design space to be meaningfully different.
I've not done the maths, but I'm not really sure Abbs occupy a meaningfully different design spot - or at least when armed with picks and roadsigns. I guess if they all had hammers - but its going to be niche, and the current points don't have it make sense.
I mean...they occupy the same design space as metas and acos but only because the difference between T4 5++ and T3 5+ has become essentially meaningless in Tablehammer 40 Minutes. I'd honestly be fine with them not getting cult ambush and operating as they do in codex tyranids, as "rush across the board" units.
"EVERYTHING DEEP STRIKES" is kind of a weird thing that I wish GSC could leave behind. I'm sick of having to design only deep strike alpha armies. I want the mad max vehicle elements to actually work.
alextroy wrote: I'm not as much concerned about the wounds as the lack of T8 on the Predator. The Exorcist was also 13/11/10 pre-8th edition, but it translated to T8 and W12 in the 8th Edition Index at the same time the Predator got T7 W11.
GW tends to be extremely inconsistent about vehicle toughness over time. The Exorcist is actually particularly weird, as in a relative sense it's gotten uparmored to Russ status whereas before both the Exorcist and Predator, being up-armored APC's, were always weaker than a Russ hull, and GW seems to have otherwise mushed most other AV12/13 (and some 11) vehicles into T7. This isn't the only case, in 2E, a Land Raider wasn't any better armored than a Russ tank, and a Demolisher was better armored than either. 3E rolls around, the Russ gets AV14/12/10, the Demolisher gets 14/13/11, and the Land Raider gets 14/14/14, 5E the normal Russ gets side AV13, and with 8E all the Russ tanks just get made T8 W12 3+ while the Land Raider becomes T8 W16 2+, and lets not talk about Wave Serpents
Tyel wrote: I think Purestrains are just screwed. They, metamorphs and acolytes all essentially fill the same slot (charge stuff, tear up with massed rending claws) - and there isn't the design space to be meaningfully different.
I've not done the maths, but I'm not really sure Abbs occupy a meaningfully different design spot - or at least when armed with picks and roadsigns. I guess if they all had hammers - but its going to be niche, and the current points don't have it make sense.
They don't have to be the standout best choice to be balanced somewhat decently. gw KNOWS how to balance Purestrains - they've already done it once. Codex Tyranid Stealers are not OP, but are a desirable choice, that might not fit into every build but is a playable unit.
Purestrains were also the most popular unit in the first wave GSC release (for being the best "bomb" unit), and also a unit plenty players already had the model for, since it's datasheet is basically identical in every way to Codex Tyranids, except for a loss of upgrades. They are iconic to the dex which is literally NAMED and designed after the lore of the unit.
Yet, with the release of a new range of models, Purestrains are left inexplicably at 15 ppm as opposed to 12ppm, and completely cut out of benefiting from any sort of chapter tactic. Why? We KNOW what sort of points cost this datesheet is considerable at. The GSC strats to buff/apply them are not significantly stronger than the Tyranid ones (in fact I think most would agree they are significantly worse). They don't fill some role that the army is meant to be slim on like melee for Tau or something, they have a borderline identical role to other units in the dex and the "GSC bomb" is basically iconic to the faction. So why were they so blatantly designed to be a deliberately weaker option? I'm usually not one for the "GW makes things weak on purpose to sell models!", but in this case, the unit literally exists in another dex and is balanced perfectly. There was no attempt made to fix Purestrains, and a deliberate attempt to make them WORSE going into the new dex. No, I do not believe that it's a coincidence that it is the oldest model in the entire GSC range, that it is a model that is shared with another faction, and that a new range of models dropped at the same time. GW wanted to push people buy a new range of units to play GSC. One of the pricier ranges to collet at that.
1. Tidewall Shieldline - Give it a 4+ Shield without points increase.
2. Tidewall Gunrig - Give it a 4+ Shield without points increase.
3. Tidewall Droneport - Alter it's Drone Control Systems to be useable with any four friendly <DRONE> models on the battlefield. No points increase.
I had fun using Shieldline and Gunrig before 8th edition got codices, now damage potential of all armies got so extremely much higher that these "Fortifications" get destroyed by an amused look of any faction one might play against.
Nitro Zeus wrote: They don't have to be the standout best choice to be balanced somewhat decently. gw KNOWS how to balance Purestrains - they've already done it once. Codex Tyranid Stealers are not OP, but are a desirable choice, that might not fit into every build but is a playable unit.
Well yeah. I think some GW pricing theories are conspiracy - but this is a fairly clear view they didn't want to have "Codex Purestrain Genestealer" - where genestealers were clearly better than acolytes/metamorphs/abbs so very few bothered to buy the new models, and the optimal list was just 100+ genestealers deep striking in and hoping on charge rolls and invul saves.
Lets say purestrain genestealers were troops with cult ambush. Should they be 12 points? I'm not sure. Probably wouldn't break the game - although I think its a list which would eat newer/weaker players. Arguably though massed acolytes do that now. You have the bar between "balance" and "obnoxiousness". Obnoxiousness doesn't matter for competitive players - they will just live and adapt. But it puts off more casual players, and GW tends to quickly intervene when they think thats a problem.
Really I think there needs to be a bigger design differential between these units. I don't think its just a function of 3 turn 40k reducing T3/5+ and T4/5++. That's always going to be a fairly marginal differentiation - and tbh, always has been when the offensive output is essentially the same. Which is really the problem with assault. Across almost the whole of 40k you basically have lots of lowish strength/none or -1 AP attacks, or a smaller number of S8/10~ loads of AP, 3/D6 damage attacks. But at some point - especially with rending claws - lots of attacks do everything you need and there isn't a significant enough distinction between wiping hordes, killing Primaris and cracking knights.
But I agree not having a chapter tactic is stupid and not having any synergy with anything the Patriarch is really stupid. It isn't fun or interesting.
As the_scotsman says, the fact GSC are just deepstrike all the time is bad - but really, its a bad codex. It was a cool concept on release - with lots of rules to stick together (aside from Genestealers), when compared with some relatively non-synergistic books. But compared with say the Sisters of Battle, you realise the synergy is all contrived and forced. As a result there are not multiple interesting concepts (even if some things are better than others), but rather a jigsaw made of a few quickly identified plug and play options with a lot of obviously inferior combinations you unsurprisingly don't see taken.
Yeah I usually think most of them are a conspiracy theory too - this one is blatantly an attempt at driving sales though.
If Purestrains were 12ppm troops? Everyone would still take Acolytes. But at least Purestrains would be a fun option if not the most optimal.
It’s as you say - they designed 3 units nearly identical in role and overall stats. They need more interesting special rules or war gear or strats or something. You articulated very well the problems with the dex.
They are in the same club as primaris reavers, a unit that makes no sense to exist, when intercessors exist with weapon options. Better guns, no beneficial point cost, intercessors are troops, better melee because of the thunder hammers on sergants.
Or GK termintors and GK strikes or GK paladins. Same thing.
Karol wrote: They are in the same club as primaris reavers, a unit that makes no sense to exist, when intercessors exist with weapon options. Better guns, no beneficial point cost, intercessors are troops, better melee because of the thunder hammers on sergants.
Or GK termintors and GK strikes or GK paladins. Same thing.
I think Reivers actually do make a certain amount of sense as a cheap unit with native Deep Strike and pseudo-fly for Primaris-only collectors. They're a whole lot better than Assault Marines for drop-in-and-charge operations (althought that's not saying much) and they're about as good per-point as Termies at dropping in and plastering something with bolt rounds (although that isn't saying much either).
They'd make a whole lot more sense if they got the Bolt Carbide and Combat Knife instead of having to choose between them though. Even as-is they'd probably see a lot more play if they were a Troop choice instead of an Elite.
Man, I'd have to carefully engineer those wishes because I need a lot of little things done.
For instance, for the Orks? #1 is that all Ork infantry with a 6+ save gets the following set of changes:
-1 Attack
Improve to a 5+ Save.
Reduced in cost by 1 point.
This results in a reduction in hitting power for an increase in staying power... normally a dubious tradeoff, and a 5+ save isn't much in a world filled with AP -2 all over the place, but it, combined with the cost reduction, means that basic troopers will stick around for a round or two, which is what troops are supposed to do, pushing more of the killing jobs to other units. I mean, a basic boy can still wind up dishing out 4 attacks on a 2+, with Strength 5, in masses of up to thirty taking whacks, so it's not a HUGE reduction in fighting ability, but it's needed to make the point cost fair. This has a side effect of making Lootas a teensy bit tougher, STormboyz and Kommandos not quite as glass cannon, and, in general, pulls Troops back to being Da Boyz instead of just Grots.
On top of this, the Warboss needs a massive makeover to have an inherent 4++ save (taken care of to an extent in current Strategeums, but) and better auras … a morale boost for an army that's largely immune to morale is wasted, and Waaaagh would be better served as, say, reroll 1's in the fight phase. Along with this is a return of the Big Boss, akin to a Marine Lt, with the stats of a Nob Banner, a cost of 32, access to all the weapon options (Shooty and Nob), and 1-3 per HQ slot used to grab one, all topped off with a reroll 1's to wound in the fight phase.
There's more, but I think I've made the genie dizzy already.
Wakshaani wrote: Man, I'd have to carefully engineer those wishes because I need a lot of little things done.
For instance, for the Orks? #1 is that all Ork infantry with a 6+ save gets the following set of changes:
-1 Attack Improve to a 5+ Save. Reduced in cost by 1 point.
This results in a reduction in hitting power for an increase in staying power... normally a dubious tradeoff, and a 5+ save isn't much in a world filled with AP -2 all over the place, but it, combined with the cost reduction, means that basic troopers will stick around for a round or two, which is what troops are supposed to do, pushing more of the killing jobs to other units. I mean, a basic boy can still wind up dishing out 4 attacks on a 2+, with Strength 5, in masses of up to thirty taking whacks, so it's not a HUGE reduction in fighting ability, but it's needed to make the point cost fair. This has a side effect of making Lootas a teensy bit tougher, STormboyz and Kommandos not quite as glass cannon, and, in general, pulls Troops back to being Da Boyz instead of just Grots.
Why on earth the -1 attack? There is a reason why people are using slugga boyz instead of shoota boyz to do the fighting. That *is* a huge reduction in fighting ability, S5 is goff only and banners tend to be not near boyz. Boyz have some problems, but your suggestions aren't solving them. The 7ppm is kind of necessary to prevent green tides from outshining every other thing in the codex, but enabling to able to field mobs of 12 or 20 which fit into transports could make gretchin less mandatory. There have been multiple ideas how to do this, like making nobz hit harder again, a separate datasheet for trukk boyz or a stratagem related to boyz disembarking from transports. Going in detail would derail this thread though. As for more durability, changing the 'ard boyz stratagem to provide a 4+ save for 1 CP would already help a lot.
On top of this, the Warboss needs a massive makeover to have an inherent 4++ save (taken care of to an extent in current Strategeums, but) and better auras … a morale boost for an army that's largely immune to morale is wasted, and Waaaagh would be better served as, say, reroll 1's in the fight phase. Along with this is a return of the Big Boss, akin to a Marine Lt, with the stats of a Nob Banner, a cost of 32, access to all the weapon options (Shooty and Nob), and 1-3 per HQ slot used to grab one, all topped off with a reroll 1's to wound in the fight phase.
There's more, but I think I've made the genie dizzy already.
To be honest, all this sounds like you want to be playing a melee-oriented marines chapter instead of orks.
Yeah, lowering the cost of 'ard boys is on the wider agenda, but the big one is the core uplifting of a 5+ save and 6 PPM.
Lowering the cost and improving the model at the same time's not a good approach tho and something had to go, and attack was the most obvious one. It means that the larger number won't be absolutely overwhelming and Orks can still rack up 3 attacks each just by existing, plus more with a support unit.
It fits the fluff better, since they're these nigh-indestructible gorillas that get limbs lopped off, shrug, and keep fighting, and makes for a force that's more durable and fun on the tabletop than just sighing and picking up another 20+ models all the time.
So, the punchier units look better in comparison, the boyz do what troops do and hang around better, and you get more VOLUME on the table, which looks better.
Everybody wins.
Even the guys going from 150 attacks to 120 aren't exactly *hurting*, you know?
Wakshaani wrote: Yeah, lowering the cost of 'ard boys is on the wider agenda, but the big one is the core uplifting of a 5+ save and 6 PPM.
Lowering the cost and improving the model at the same time's not a good approach tho and something had to go, and attack was the most obvious one. It means that the larger number won't be absolutely overwhelming and Orks can still rack up 3 attacks each just by existing, plus more with a support unit.
It fits the fluff better, since they're these nigh-indestructible gorillas that get limbs lopped off, shrug, and keep fighting, and makes for a force that's more durable and fun on the tabletop than just sighing and picking up another 20+ models all the time.
So, the punchier units look better in comparison, the boyz do what troops do and hang around better, and you get more VOLUME on the table, which looks better.
Everybody wins.
Even the guys going from 150 attacks to 120 aren't exactly *hurting*, you know?
Sorry, but it really sounds to me like you are just theorizing about an army that you have never played. Orks get two attacks base, a slugga adds another one, green tide adds another for boyz only. 150 is only possible if you are running Thrakka, who was an overcosted paperweight even before SotB and got worse. So 120, assuming you get all 30 orks in combat - which never actually happens. Experience across multiple players in multiple different environment has shown that getting around 20 into combat is what you can expect. The difference between 60 and 80 S4 AP 0 attacks is quite massive - especially when you consider that this unit costs at least 210 points plus additional costs for da jump or tellyporta. In addition, if you take away the second attack, units like storm boyz, kommandoz, burna boyz and shoota boyz become even more worthless in combat, as does any choppa boyz mob that has dropped below 20. The whole idea is terrible. Orks don't need guardsmen.
Most of my thoughts with this, Although chaos oriented, would also apply to the marine equivalents:
1. Chaos Marine Raptors go up to 2 attacks basic and gain the option to take alternate chain and power weapons instead of just chainswords.
2. Warp talons gain 2 attacks basic, Deal mortal wounds on a 5+ when charging in the same turn when they deepstrike (They tear out of the warp itself wreathed in warpflame, a really under-represented and under-imagined ability) and can re-enter reserves in the movement phase if they are not engaged in combat. They must return to the table next turn or are automatically destroyed. They also increase slightly in points to represent their new rules (maybe 4-5 points each)
3. Exalted chaimpions gain access to a Jump-pack and gains a 5+ invulnerbale save.
Its may be less fun, but warp talons need some inbuilt way to increase their likelihood of making a charge out of deepstrike (whether that's rerolls, using three dice, extra range whatever) - and 2 wounds.
The problem now is that you have a huge probability of them coming down, failing to charge anything, and then being swatted off the table by a relatively tiny amount of firepower (or a counter charge).
Deep down though, any unit depending on DS->charge will always be unreliable in three turn 40k. Whether your chance of making that charge is 28%, 50% or 70%+, you are having a lot of games where the unit does nothing before the game is effectively decided.
Raptors and Assault Marines probably just need points drops and, as I think someone suggested, possibly some form of "bully Obsec" so getting these fast units around the board means something. Could argue the same for lots of similar units - Hellions and Stormboyz come to mind. You could tool them up with special weapons - but if these are at regular cost, all you are doing is making an even more fragile all or nothing unit.
harlokin wrote: Don't Night Lord Warp Talons pretty much auto-succeed on charges from deepstrike now?
True. I guess if you don't mind using a couple of CP and a warlord trait (and going Night Lords) you can have one unit do a 3d6 charge with +2". Which gives you about a 90% chance to get something in 7". Higher again I guess if you were to reroll a dice with another CP.
But that seems like a lot of set up to facilitate one unit - which still has a chance to fail, or, if you roll low just run into the first target.
I guess its special pleading - but what if I wanted to run more than one unit of Warp Talons?
I guess in a world of highlander TAC, having stratagems "fix" units is fine - but it feels like bad design.
harlokin wrote: Don't Night Lord Warp Talons pretty much auto-succeed on charges from deepstrike now?
True. I guess if you don't mind using a couple of CP and a warlord trait (and going Night Lords) you can have one unit do a 3d6 charge with +2". Which gives you about a 90% chance to get something in 7". Higher again I guess if you were to reroll a dice with another CP.
But that seems like a lot of set up to facilitate one unit - which still has a chance to fail, or, if you roll low just run into the first target.
I guess its special pleading - but what if I wanted to run more than one unit of Warp Talons?
I guess in a world of highlander TAC, having stratagems "fix" units is fine - but it feels like bad design.
Want to make warp talons better? First give jump units back the ability to reroll charges, then give them back Hammer of Wrath. Next make warp talons and raptors one unit. Drop the daemon save and raptor's anti-leadership mechanic. Keep the no overwatch when arriving from deep strike rule but make it "cannot be targeted by shooting attacks in a turn this unit arrived from deep strike " so they can't be targeted by things like Auspex Scan. Give them full selection of power weapons including lightning claws. Finally give them the HH Night Raptor's onslaught rule (+d3 attacks on a successful charge). Point them accordingly.
And yes, "fixing" units with strategems is bad design.
Plus I think that's probably all three wishes on one unit.
Kommandos: can swap CC weapons for shoota, upgrade 2 models per unit to have special weapons, swap all weapons for sniper rifles and +1 BS.
Burnas: d6 attacks, 8 inch range like all other flamers, -2 ap in mele with CC attacks.
Khorne
Berserkers: get extra attacks on a hit roll of 6. Hero's - parry and counter attack save roll of 6+ causes single damage roll equal to models current CC weapon in mortal wounds.
datasheet; you're charging $80 for the plastic, you owe us at least that much. And 
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