I don't think those things make w40k cheap. Maybe cheaper, and even those not that much. Even if an army costs half what it costs at a store it is still a lot in some countries. Some people consider the squad based GW games like kill team to cost too much.
Karol wrote: I don't think those things make w40k cheap. Maybe cheaper, and even those not that much. Even if an army costs half what it costs at a store it is still a lot in some countries. Some people consider the squad based GW games like kill team to cost too much.
Cheap is a relative term. If we compare 40k to hobbies like fishing or cars its incredibly cheap. If you think that it isn't cheap maybe you dont put very much value on it. I might spend a few hundrend dollars on an army (In Australia which is almost the most expensive in the world) but play countless games and spend many hours painting it up. For the amount of value i get from that its seriously cheap if you look at cost per hour.
#1, #2, #3 and #6 are actually helpful ideas. #4 and #5 are just "feel good" perks, and actually aren't that helpful.
The only drawback to #3 - "buy only what you use" is that a unit's worth often doesn't really become obvious until it hits the tabletop in the real world, against real opponents (and meta). And a lot of times, what's good or bad changes with the winds of GW's rules writers. That makes getting and more importantly keeping useful units difficult - unless your willing to trade/buy/sell models as the meta shifts.
Also, minis don't depreciate nearly as fast as car parts or exotic pets. The old Calgar models still go for about $20 on ebay, slightly more than the $15 or so USD they would have cost when they were new. Sure, you could do better in the stock market (in fact the rate of return was below inflation), but you can't even resell video games these days. 40k doesn't look so bad compared to a GeForce 6800 ($300 when new, $30 today).
I think the only hobbies with better resell values are firearms and antiques. Even numismatics are usually a poor investment unless you find a particularly eager buyer, and that hobby literally deals in money.
40k isn't particularly expensive. Compared to other adult hobbies, it's downright cheap. It's like $1k max for an army with lots of options and fully flexible to be good on the tabletop, and like $500 in minis to start a new army, so it's not particularly expensive at all. Even versus video gaming, if I wanted to have a nice computer that could run the games coming out last and this year I would be setting myself back the cost of an army.
That said, as fairly inexpensive in the grand scheme of things as it is, it's also more expensive than it should be, because the people it needs to get to buy things aren't adults with incomes, but high school students with their parents money/summer job money. If we don't get new blood in the hobby, the hobby will slowly diminish, and we're already having a hard time competing with video gaming and the college application process for time.
40k is much cheaper if you don't care about winning. You can get cheap secondhand models, or find armies where you don't need a lot of models to play, but you'll find yourself with subpar lists getting steamrollered by the people who are prepared to go out and spend $500 on the last thing GW accidentally buffed into the stratosphere on a regular basis.
40k isn't particularly expensive. Compared to other adult hobbies, it's downright cheap. It's like $1k max for an army with lots of options and fully flexible to be good on the tabletop, and like $500 in minis to start a new army, so it's not particularly expensive at all. Even versus video gaming, if I wanted to have a nice computer that could run the games coming out last and this year I would be setting myself back the cost of an army.
That said, as fairly inexpensive in the grand scheme of things as it is, it's also more expensive than it should be, because the people it needs to get to buy things aren't adults with incomes, but high school students with their parents money/summer job money. If we don't get new blood in the hobby, the hobby will slowly diminish, and we're already having a hard time competing with video gaming and the college application process for time.
Karol wrote: I don't think those things make w40k cheap. Maybe cheaper, and even those not that much. Even if an army costs half what it costs at a store it is still a lot in some countries. Some people consider the squad based GW games like kill team to cost too much.
Cheap is a relative term. If we compare 40k to hobbies like fishing or cars its incredibly cheap. If you think that it isn't cheap maybe you dont put very much value on it. I might spend a few hundrend dollars on an army (In Australia which is almost the most expensive in the world) but play countless games and spend many hours painting it up. For the amount of value i get from that its seriously cheap if you look at cost per hour.
Well then you are going to be not suprised that deep sea fishing and collecting cars, is not a hobby spread wide in my country.
It is not a question of fun per hour, but just plain raw cost. When your parents, on avarge, are making 450-550$ per hour, you are never going to consider a 600-700$ army cheap, and you can even get it for half the money, and it is still going to be a huge investment. And this is still income considered from the view point of big rich cities, not smaller ones or towns.
Karol I'm guessing you didn't mean per hour, regarding parents income...
Unfortunately at some point there is a cutoff where you just have to say 'I can't afford to do this', and that's just part of life I'm afraid.
I mean, I'd love to have a sports car again and get into doing track days, but I can't afford it. And, being unable to afford it, I don't spend my time complaining about how expensive it is on sports car forums - I do something else that I like instead.
Stormonu wrote: #1, #2, #3 and #6 are actually helpful ideas. #4 and #5 are just "feel good" perks, and actually aren't that helpful.
The only drawback to #3 - "buy only what you use" is that a unit's worth often doesn't really become obvious until it hits the tabletop in the real world, against real opponents (and meta). And a lot of times, what's good or bad changes with the winds of GW's rules writers. That makes getting and more importantly keeping useful units difficult - unless your willing to trade/buy/sell models as the meta shifts.
It also isn't just units tho. It also works for the paints, glue, hobby tools, etc... also many MANY players will buy something just to buy and not actually play/build/paint it.
Karol wrote: When your parents, on avarge, are making 450-550$ per hour,
I'm sure this is a typo, because if I earned the equivalent of 450-550$ per hour, I'd never go hungry again, every one of my financial worries would be taken care of, and raising a family would actually be viable, let alone worrying about buying another non-essential plastic model.
Crispy78 wrote: Karol I'm guessing you didn't mean per hour, regarding parents income...
Unfortunately at some point there is a cutoff where you just have to say 'I can't afford to do this', and that's just part of life I'm afraid.
I mean, I'd love to have a sports car again and get into doing track days, but I can't afford it. And, being unable to afford it, I don't spend my time complaining about how expensive it is on sports car forums - I do something else that I like instead.
Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
OfcGW is not the only culprit in that regard, LEGO prices have gone through the roof for the past 3 decades as well.
Karol wrote: When your parents, on avarge, are making 450-550$ per hour,
I'm sure this is a typo, because if I earned the equivalent of 450-550$ per hour, I'd never go hungry again, every one of my financial worries would be taken care of, and raising a family would actually be viable, let alone worrying about buying another non-essential plastic model.
that is monthly income, you are right. no idea why auto correct change it per hour.
Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
well the models don't have to just pay for production, they have to pay salaries, bonuses, dividends, generate money to replace broken machines, molds, new buildings, pay for the adds and the storage space. Not saying that GW isn't making good money, they seem to be doing real good, but the X cents per sprue that turns in to 35$ at the store is probably a bid miss leading.
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Crispy78 wrote: Karol I'm guessing you didn't mean per hour, regarding parents income...
Unfortunately at some point there is a cutoff where you just have to say 'I can't afford to do this', and that's just part of life I'm afraid.
I mean, I'd love to have a sports car again and get into doing track days, but I can't afford it. And, being unable to afford it, I don't spend my time complaining about how expensive it is on sports car forums - I do something else that I like instead.
I do not claim that GW should be forced to make stuff cheaper or that somehow people that make less are entitled to get stuff for less. I am just saying that there are parts of the world where people already use all the techniques and the market for recasting is huge and booming, and still most people playing with a full army are in their late 20s. me and people from my school were the new players in 8th ed, now most of them don't play, but in general we were at best half younger then the next players at the store. At to them the hobby was also a big investment, and they have jobs, no wifes or kids.
On army cost basis inifnity and historicals with those really small models seemed to be the cheaper options. No idea if more or less fun, but I know that for how much my second hand army cost, I could have had 3 infinity ones and 6 XVI century historical ones or 5 medival ones.
I possess a 3,264pt Daemon/R&H army that has cost me exactly $1,151.56 CAD (including H.S.T.) since October, 2017. I mostly use paints from dollar-stores or Michaels, so add maybe $100 for paint, glue and brushes.
So far, that's 30 months of building, painting and playing, for $1,250 CAD.
Over the same timeframe I've spent ca. $5,800 CAD on cigarettes and a further ca. $6,000 on take-out/eating out. Close to $13,000 on recreational substances.
So... context. It matters.
EDIT - Uncomfortably revealing stat, so far the Daemon portion is averaging 3.26pts per dollar spent; the Renegades and Heretics 2.29.
Karol wrote: When your parents, on avarge, are making 450-550$ per hour,
I'm sure this is a typo, because if I earned the equivalent of 450-550$ per hour, I'd never go hungry again, every one of my financial worries would be taken care of, and raising a family would actually be viable, let alone worrying about buying another non-essential plastic model.
Karol wrote: When your parents, on avarge, are making 450-550$ per hour,
I'm sure this is a typo, because if I earned the equivalent of 450-550$ per hour, I'd never go hungry again, every one of my financial worries would be taken care of, and raising a family would actually be viable, let alone worrying about buying another non-essential plastic model.
that is monthly income, you are right. no idea why auto correct change it per hour.
Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
well the models don't have to just pay for production, they have to pay salaries, bonuses, dividends, generate money to replace broken machines, molds, new buildings, pay for the adds and the storage space. Not saying that GW isn't making good money, they seem to be doing real good, but the X cents per sprue that turns in to 35$ at the store is probably a bid miss leading.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 wrote: Karol I'm guessing you didn't mean per hour, regarding parents income...
Unfortunately at some point there is a cutoff where you just have to say 'I can't afford to do this', and that's just part of life I'm afraid.
I mean, I'd love to have a sports car again and get into doing track days, but I can't afford it. And, being unable to afford it, I don't spend my time complaining about how expensive it is on sports car forums - I do something else that I like instead.
I do not claim that GW should be forced to make stuff cheaper or that somehow people that make less are entitled to get stuff for less. I am just saying that there are parts of the world where people already use all the techniques and the market for recasting is huge and booming, and still most people playing with a full army are in their late 20s. me and people from my school were the new players in 8th ed, now most of them don't play, but in general we were at best half younger then the next players at the store. At to them the hobby was also a big investment, and they have jobs, no wifes or kids.
On army cost basis inifnity and historicals with those really small models seemed to be the cheaper options. No idea if more or less fun, but I know that for how much my second hand army cost, I could have had 3 infinity ones and 6 XVI century historical ones or 5 medival ones.
Well, I can tell you that in terms of Flames of War (the most common historical) a full army costs maybe a little less than a full 40k army, but not much. The biggest saving grace there is that the competition for other similar-scaled WW2 miniatures is HUGE so you can get an army of similarly scaled tanks or whatever at a much lower price.
Any skirmish game, whether Infinity, Malifaux, whatever, is going to be a good deal cheaper for an army, but more expensive per miniature usually. I have a full Infinity army, and it cost around 300$, for 26 miniatures (one of which is a big robot).
If I spent the same money on WH figures, I'd probably end up with more figures (and much bigger vehicles, the biggest infinity models are about the size of classic marine dreadnoughts) but I'd probably only have about 500-1k points depending on which army I bought into.
I agree that spending a LOT of time on and with models enhances the value, and brings down the cost per hour's fun.
It does nothing to reduce the absolute cost, however.
As for 3D printing, a) ignore the cost of the printer itself and then b) ignore the printing TIME, and that's before he shows off a model that, in his words "looks suspiciously like this forgeworld model".. not a recast, but what actual difference?
stroller wrote: I agree that spending a LOT of time on and with models enhances the value, and brings down the cost per hour's fun.
It does nothing to reduce the absolute cost, however.
As for 3D printing, a) ignore the cost of the printer itself and then b) ignore the printing TIME, and that's before he shows off a model that, in his words "looks suspiciously like this forgeworld model".. not a recast, but what actual difference?
Well, legally speaking making something for your own use breaks a looooooooot fewer laws in many places than participating in a financial transaction for something that is someone else's IP.
After all, nothing is stopping you from sculpting an identical model to some Forgeworld sculpt out of clay or greenstuff or something...it's just a vastly more technologically advanced method of doing that.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
well the models don't have to just pay for production, they have to pay salaries, bonuses, dividends, generate money to replace broken machines, molds, new buildings, pay for the adds and the storage space. Not saying that GW isn't making good money, they seem to be doing real good, but the X cents per sprue that turns in to 35$ at the store is probably a bid miss leading.
Not to get off topic, but the thing that bothers me is the arbitrary nature of GW pricing. I get that more detailed kits are going to be more expensive relative to their plastic. The price is correlated somewhat to game point values. They seem to price things based on how many the players are expected to use. You can see this in any faction's Troops vs Elites kits.
I also understand bundles cost less than the sum of their parts. However, when the Start Collecting boxes offer 30-40% discounts, you have to wonder about the individual prices. As an AdMech player, why would I ever buy a Dunecrawler at $75 over a Start Collecting at $95?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
well the models don't have to just pay for production, they have to pay salaries, bonuses, dividends, generate money to replace broken machines, molds, new buildings, pay for the adds and the storage space. Not saying that GW isn't making good money, they seem to be doing real good, but the X cents per sprue that turns in to 35$ at the store is probably a bid miss leading.
Not to get off topic, but the thing that bothers me is the arbitrary nature of GW pricing. I get that more detailed kits are going to be more expensive relative to their plastic. The price is correlated somewhat to game point values. They seem to price things based on how many the players are expected to use. You can see this in any faction's Troops vs Elites kits.
I also understand bundles cost less than the sum of their parts. However, when the Start Collecting boxes offer 30-40% discounts, you have to wonder about the individual prices. As an AdMech player, why would I ever buy a Dunecrawler at $75 over a Start Collecting at $95?
Basically, because you don't pay for the component parts for an injection-molded plastic kit, you pay for two things.
1) the buy in to create the mold
2) the overhead cost of shipping it to your distributor and keeping it on the shelf.
The reason why older kits, that cost less money, are kept at the same price is because the molds are already paid off and they don't usually stock those anywhere, they're online order only. wheras a kit like a dunecrawler they're going to actually stock on their store shelves and is more recent.
It really doens't have much at all to do with level of detail. Number of sprues = number of molds = initial cost to GW.
And yeah, sales volume is a big part of it as well. The entire reason character clampacks are so crazy expensive is that they're so low sales volume. It's why they used to make them out of metal, because the molds were way cheaper but the material much more expensive, but it allowed them to support a lower price point even with the lower sales volume. Sadly when the composite materials of the white metal they used to use went nuts, almost the whole games industry had to drop it.
SC boxes are great for GW, even when they include 75$ models in a 95$ box like the crisis suits in Tau or Dunecrawlers in Admech, because they get to shift what would otherwise be very very low sales volume character kits. They usually do that on purpose - package a couple of highly re-buyable units like leman russes and guard kits or fire warriors and crisis suits with one predicted low sales volume character pack like the plastic commissar.
For some of them, like the various daemons boxes, they're basically the only thing GW will ever have to stock for the faction in the store, because they're by FAR the most efficient way to collect the faction. You get flamers, horrors, screamers, a chariot kit, and a herald out of the tzeentch daemons SC - stock that, brims and blues, and lords of change and you don't need to devote any more shelf space to tzeentch. It is well worth the discount for GW to be able to do that, and to have all those kits sell at exactly the same rate.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
well the models don't have to just pay for production, they have to pay salaries, bonuses, dividends, generate money to replace broken machines, molds, new buildings, pay for the adds and the storage space. Not saying that GW isn't making good money, they seem to be doing real good, but the X cents per sprue that turns in to 35$ at the store is probably a bid miss leading.
Not to get off topic, but the thing that bothers me is the arbitrary nature of GW pricing. I get that more detailed kits are going to be more expensive relative to their plastic. The price is correlated somewhat to game point values. They seem to price things based on how many the players are expected to use. You can see this in any faction's Troops vs Elites kits.
I also understand bundles cost less than the sum of their parts. However, when the Start Collecting boxes offer 30-40% discounts, you have to wonder about the individual prices. As an AdMech player, why would I ever buy a Dunecrawler at $75 over a Start Collecting at $95?
The "elites are more expensive" thing actually makes a lot of sense when you understand that the cost to set up an injection mold machine to produce the Intercessors sprue and the cost to produce the new Kayvaan Shrike sprue are about the same, but you can reasonably expect to sell 30 times as many Intercessor sprues.
Karol wrote: I don't think those things make w40k cheap. Maybe cheaper, and even those not that much. Even if an army costs half what it costs at a store it is still a lot in some countries. Some people consider the squad based GW games like kill team to cost too much.
Cheap is a relative term. If we compare 40k to hobbies like fishing or cars its incredibly cheap. If you think that it isn't cheap maybe you dont put very much value on it. I might spend a few hundrend dollars on an army (In Australia which is almost the most expensive in the world) but play countless games and spend many hours painting it up. For the amount of value i get from that its seriously cheap if you look at cost per hour.
Well then you are going to be not suprised that deep sea fishing and collecting cars, is not a hobby spread wide in my country.
It is not a question of fun per hour, but just plain raw cost. When your parents, on avarge, are making 450-550$ per hour, you are never going to consider a 600-700$ army cheap, and you can even get it for half the money, and it is still going to be a huge investment. And this is still income considered from the view point of big rich cities, not smaller ones or towns.
Assuming you stick with 40k & only your GK going forward, you'll find that your hobby is considerably cheaper here on out.
(assuming no piracy/access to free rules) You'll be investing in new books on occasion - a new rule book every 4 years or so, a new codex every 4-5 years, possibly the annual CA books &/or things like PA. Eventually as $ permits, some additional models. And some paint + supplies - or paying someone to paint.
AnomanderRake wrote:40k is much cheaper if you don't care about winning. You can get cheap secondhand models, or find armies where you don't need a lot of models to play, but you'll find yourself with subpar lists getting steamrollered by the people who are prepared to go out and spend $500 on the last thing GW accidentally buffed into the stratosphere on a regular basis.
This is really the key. If you want to stay competitive, or have a large selection of units from which to build competitive, your cost will be a lot higher than building a 2000pt list and sticking with it.
Siegfriedfr wrote:Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
But surely you know that the material cost for these products is a tiny percentage of the overall cost of production? I'm not saying there isn't a healthy profit margin built in to the retail price (GW is a successful and very profitable company), but don't discount the cost of the moulds, the salaries of the designers and factory workers, packaging, storage costs, and the fact that a lot of their stock is sold at wholesale prices rather than retail. When you consider that many independent or third-party sellers offer 25% discount, you can surmise that they're probably paying around 50% retail price on these products (this is an estimate - feel free to correct me if anyone knows the actual figure).
Ultimately, GW could reduce the retail price by producing kits with fewer optional parts, lower quality detail, and less premium packaging and instructions, but that's not their brand.
DarkHound wrote:Not to get off topic, but the thing that bothers me is the arbitrary nature of GW pricing. I get that more detailed kits are going to be more expensive relative to their plastic. The price is correlated somewhat to game point values. They seem to price things based on how many the players are expected to use. You can see this in any faction's Troops vs Elites kits.
I also understand bundles cost less than the sum of their parts. However, when the Start Collecting boxes offer 30-40% discounts, you have to wonder about the individual prices. As an AdMech player, why would I ever buy a Dunecrawler at $75 over a Start Collecting at $95?
It can seem like price is correlated to points value, but this is really a byproduct of the actual approach to pricing. Acceptable margin is driven heavily by expected sales volume. If you make a plastic character kit, it costs a similar amount to create the tool and packaging as an infantry squad (design costs are probably lower), but you'll probably sell one or two to someone who collects that army, compared to maybe 5-10 of a standard infantry squad. So, the margin (and therefore retail price) must be higher on the character so that it pays for its own development costs.
Regarding the SC boxes, again it's a question of scale. GW are happy to make less on the box overall, because they're selling more product in one go. Volume is the key to good value for you here.
AnomanderRake wrote:40k is much cheaper if you don't care about winning. You can get cheap secondhand models, or find armies where you don't need a lot of models to play, but you'll find yourself with subpar lists getting steamrollered by the people who are prepared to go out and spend $500 on the last thing GW accidentally buffed into the stratosphere on a regular basis.
This is really the key. If you want to stay competitive, or have a large selection of units from which to build competitive, your cost will be a lot higher than building a 2000pt list and sticking with it.
Siegfriedfr wrote:Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
But surely you know that the material cost for these products is a tiny percentage of the overall cost of production? I'm not saying there isn't a healthy profit margin built in to the retail price (GW is a successful and very profitable company), but don't discount the cost of the moulds, the salaries of the designers and factory workers, packaging, storage costs, and the fact that a lot of their stock is sold at wholesale prices rather than retail. When you consider that many independent or third-party sellers offer 25% discount, you can surmise that they're probably paying around 50% retail price on these products (this is an estimate - feel free to correct me if anyone knows the actual figure).
Ultimately, GW could reduce the retail price by producing kits with fewer optional parts, lower quality detail, and less premium packaging and instructions, but that's not their brand.
DarkHound wrote:Not to get off topic, but the thing that bothers me is the arbitrary nature of GW pricing. I get that more detailed kits are going to be more expensive relative to their plastic. The price is correlated somewhat to game point values. They seem to price things based on how many the players are expected to use. You can see this in any faction's Troops vs Elites kits.
I also understand bundles cost less than the sum of their parts. However, when the Start Collecting boxes offer 30-40% discounts, you have to wonder about the individual prices. As an AdMech player, why would I ever buy a Dunecrawler at $75 over a Start Collecting at $95?
It can seem like price is correlated to points value, but this is really a byproduct of the actual approach to pricing. Acceptable margin is driven heavily by expected sales volume. If you make a plastic character kit, it costs a similar amount to create the tool and packaging as an infantry squad (design costs are probably lower), but you'll probably sell one or two to someone who collects that army, compared to maybe 5-10 of a standard infantry squad. So, the margin (and therefore retail price) must be higher on the character so that it pays for its own development costs.
Regarding the SC boxes, again it's a question of scale. GW are happy to make less on the box overall, because they're selling more product in one go. Volume is the key to good value for you here.
"They're paying 50%" is really just kind of...not the way to look at it. They're probably AIMING for about 50%, but really what it is is a much higher margin than 50% but with a large capital investment at the beginning with all the design work plus the molds, and then they try to project expected sales as accurately as possible when they create their price point.
Honestly, 40k has it pretty good when it comes to that stuff, it's obvious to me that GW feels new AOS projects are much riskier/lower volume. When I got my AOS stuff I was frankly amazed at the going retail rates for some of this stuff. There's a biggish character, about C'tan sized, in the AOS army I play and it's a hundred goddamn dollars retail. Literally for something that's about the size of a C'tan or venomthrope, smaller than a dreadnought.
Honestly, 40k has it pretty good when it comes to that stuff, it's obvious to me that GW feels new AOS projects are much riskier/lower volume. When I got my AOS stuff I was frankly amazed at the going retail rates for some of this stuff. There's a biggish character, about C'tan sized, in the AOS army I play and it's a hundred goddamn dollars retail. Literally for something that's about the size of a C'tan or venomthrope, smaller than a dreadnought.
Honestly, 40k has it pretty good when it comes to that stuff, it's obvious to me that GW feels new AOS projects are much riskier/lower volume. When I got my AOS stuff I was frankly amazed at the going retail rates for some of this stuff. There's a biggish character, about C'tan sized, in the AOS army I play and it's a hundred goddamn dollars retail. Literally for something that's about the size of a C'tan or venomthrope, smaller than a dreadnought.
Which model?
The yodeleheehoo of math camp, aka Wave Man.https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Eidolon-Of-Mathlann-2018 sorry, 110$.
Assuming you stick with 40k & only your GK going forward, you'll find that your hobby is considerably cheaper here on out.
(assuming no piracy/access to free rules) You'll be investing in new books on occasion - a new rule book every 4 years or so, a new codex every 4-5 years, possibly the annual CA books &/or things like PA. Eventually as $ permits, some additional models. And some paint + supplies - or paying someone to paint.
Oh the store in my area went bankrupt, so without a place to play my hobbby may as well not exist. I just wish I could have played more with PA4. I got it mid Feb, just after winter break. and on 2ed of march goverment locked everything up. Played total of 3 games with the new rules.
Paint wise I am also done, because the army was fully painted asided for 2 rhinos. that are just silver.
Honestly, 40k has it pretty good when it comes to that stuff, it's obvious to me that GW feels new AOS projects are much riskier/lower volume. When I got my AOS stuff I was frankly amazed at the going retail rates for some of this stuff. There's a biggish character, about C'tan sized, in the AOS army I play and it's a hundred goddamn dollars retail. Literally for something that's about the size of a C'tan or venomthrope, smaller than a dreadnought.
Which model?
The yodeleheehoo of math camp, aka Wave Man.https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Eidolon-Of-Mathlann-2018 sorry, 110$.
Well IDK and FS are the "costly armies" and no one knows why. But you can easily make a 2k army for $200, and a "viable and fun" 2k army for $300-400. Honestly there are many armies that can do that, BCR, FeC, BoC, Goblins, any death army with Nagash can be cheap, SCE, NH.
How many 40k armies (I haven't looked) can make a army worth playing (not GT level that is) for less than $400? Heck even my Quins with 18 bikes alone are $360 and thats only 800pts.
One big difference is that AoS currently uses fewer models on average than 40K. You can see this when comparing demon armies (which work in both games). I think that GW has made AoS a bit more expensive in points so that army sizes are smaller since the game is "new" and has a lot of newer customers. Whilst 40K hasa greater legacy and a lot of older customers with bigger forces and more desire to put down more models.
I fully expect AoS armies to creep up in size over time. Either by the points values lowering and/or the "base point level" rising.
Overread wrote: One big difference is that AoS currently uses fewer models on average than 40K. You can see this when comparing demon armies (which work in both games). I think that GW has made AoS a bit more expensive in points so that army sizes are smaller since the game is "new" and has a lot of newer customers. Whilst 40K hasa greater legacy and a lot of older customers with bigger forces and more desire to put down more models.
I fully expect AoS armies to creep up in size over time. Either by the points values lowering and/or the "base point level" rising.
Nah this heavily depends on the army just like in 40k. Clanrats, Ungors, and many others are 4ppm, some armies has 3ppm guys too. One of my armies that i play for events has 164 models, but another one i play only has 69 models. BUT funny enough, the army with 69 models costs more than the one with 164 models, i have 15 chariots each costing $45 ($675) and those 15 chariots is only 750pts, lol.
Also if you play Horror spam, you can have 9 units of Pink Horrors on the table turn 1 if you get first turn (good chance of it too), 90 pink horrors turns into another 180 models that also can turn into another 180 models. But no one plays that b.c its stupidly boring and long turns. Also a chance you get screwed over and can't summon them all.
Honestly, 40k has it pretty good when it comes to that stuff, it's obvious to me that GW feels new AOS projects are much riskier/lower volume. When I got my AOS stuff I was frankly amazed at the going retail rates for some of this stuff. There's a biggish character, about C'tan sized, in the AOS army I play and it's a hundred goddamn dollars retail. Literally for something that's about the size of a C'tan or venomthrope, smaller than a dreadnought.
Which model?
The yodeleheehoo of math camp, aka Wave Man.https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Eidolon-Of-Mathlann-2018 sorry, 110$.
Well IDK and FS are the "costly armies" and no one knows why. But you can easily make a 2k army for $200, and a "viable and fun" 2k army for $300-400. Honestly there are many armies that can do that, BCR, FeC, BoC, Goblins, any death army with Nagash can be cheap, SCE, NH.
How many 40k armies (I haven't looked) can make a army worth playing (not GT level that is) for less than $400? Heck even my Quins with 18 bikes alone are $360 and thats only 800pts.
wait...what?
How? How could you possibly make a 2k idoneth army for 200$? USD? The cheapest thing they've got is the SC box, which is 350 points for 90USD. The best I can figure here is 980 points for 120USD, and that's assuming you don't get the tome.
I didn't say IDK was 200, i said you can make AoS armies for 200, i said IDK is one of the costly armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can literally get SCE/NH units for pennies per point. You have to get odd sets but its easily doable. And Nagash being 880pts you only need another 1k worth of models as you'll take a battalion, bonus CP, etc.. its easy to get 1k in NH for less than $100.
PS, then you have armies like FeC and BCR. Their SC boxes are 700pts, 2 of those is 1400pts. 3 of them is easily 2k. Sure its a bit over 200, but i also said many armies can be 300-400. I said you "can" make a $200 new playable army.
If you want ot get into AoS for cheap you can. But at the same time an army could cost you $1500 as well as some AoS units/Armies are EXTREMELY costly. Like my chariots (Scourgerunners) 50pts for $45....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: The way you worded it made it sound very much like you were saying you could build an IDK 2K army for $200.
Sorry, no i meant IDK and FS are costly armies but at least in AoS there are some cheap ones. PS LoA is also another costly army, but its FW so....
Amishprn86 wrote: I didn't say IDK was 200, i said you can make AoS armies for 200, i said IDK is one of the costly armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can literally get SCE/NH units for pennies per point. You have to get odd sets but its easily doable. And Nagash being 880pts you only need another 1k worth of models as you'll take a battalion, bonus CP, etc.. its easy to get 1k in NH for less than $100.
"Well IDK and FS are the "costly armies" and no one knows why. But you can easily make a 2k army for $200, and a "viable and fun" 2k army for $300-400."
Apologies if I misinterpreted there, that just VERY much seemed like you claiming that you could make an idk 2k army for 200$.
and if you're talking about getting the older, ported from fantasy models secondhand for penies per point...that's been a thing you can do with 40k for an extremely long time. I could probably make a fairly competitive guard army for an extremely low price buying super-cheap painted secondhand ebay crap, especially considering how good the barebones battlecannon russ is right now. I remember getting the third-ed era sculpt of the russ for like 10-20 bucks off ebay - that's a 140pt model.
Space Marines, Eldar, Guard, pretty much any long-existing army where you can get old sculpts that are good in the current meta, you can easily make a cheap secondhand 2k army for 40k. Even the newer competitive stuff can be real cheap - starter box intercessors are a tournament winning unit right now, after all.
Amishprn86 wrote: I didn't say IDK was 200, i said you can make AoS armies for 200, i said IDK is one of the costly armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can literally get SCE/NH units for pennies per point. You have to get odd sets but its easily doable. And Nagash being 880pts you only need another 1k worth of models as you'll take a battalion, bonus CP, etc.. its easy to get 1k in NH for less than $100.
"Well IDK and FS are the "costly armies" and no one knows why. But you can easily make a 2k army for $200, and a "viable and fun" 2k army for $300-400."
Apologies if I misinterpreted there, that just VERY much seemed like you claiming that you could make an idk 2k army for 200$.
and if you're talking about getting the older, ported from fantasy models secondhand for penies per point...that's been a thing you can do with 40k for an extremely long time. I could probably make a fairly competitive guard army for an extremely low price buying super-cheap painted secondhand ebay crap, especially considering how good the barebones battlecannon russ is right now. I remember getting the third-ed era sculpt of the russ for like 10-20 bucks off ebay - that's a 140pt model.
Space Marines, Eldar, Guard, pretty much any long-existing army where you can get old sculpts that are good in the current meta, you can easily make a cheap secondhand 2k army for 40k. Even the newer competitive stuff can be real cheap - starter box intercessors are a tournament winning unit right now, after all.
Its NP at all. But man I wish lol. I had a LARGE IDK army... when i mean large i mean larger than the normal IDK player, i've spent way to much on them for sure.
Also i mean new models still in the package. GW has put many smaller 4-10 man units in a lot of odd box sets, in magazines, and just small push fit sets in general over the years. Some of the kits oddly tho are not released in all countries, so the $200 claim might only work for some countries. Some shops even limited some of those released to 1 per customer b.c everyone is looking for them as they are great deals (basically free models). They are using NH and SCE to get new players into AoS for cheap.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
well the models don't have to just pay for production, they have to pay salaries, bonuses, dividends, generate money to replace broken machines, molds, new buildings, pay for the adds and the storage space. Not saying that GW isn't making good money, they seem to be doing real good, but the X cents per sprue that turns in to 35$ at the store is probably a bid miss leading.
Not to get off topic, but the thing that bothers me is the arbitrary nature of GW pricing. I get that more detailed kits are going to be more expensive relative to their plastic. The price is correlated somewhat to game point values. They seem to price things based on how many the players are expected to use. You can see this in any faction's Troops vs Elites kits.
I also understand bundles cost less than the sum of their parts. However, when the Start Collecting boxes offer 30-40% discounts, you have to wonder about the individual prices. As an AdMech player, why would I ever buy a Dunecrawler at $75 over a Start Collecting at $95?
Price doesn't seem that correlated to points values, but you're absolutely right that they set the price based on how many they expect to sell. Most of the cost is in product development and tooling the dies, and after that there's the opportunity cost of time on the machines. A unit that everybody will buy 10 of, like Guardsmen, will make back it's cost far better than say a unique commissar, which will only sell 1 per person.
I have no citation, but I once heard that the price is set partially based on how many they expect to sell on launch day to cover the cost of the tooling and die. I'm not totally sure I believe it, but it is logically sound.
I've heard that too, also have no idea if it is true. But there has been AMA's from e GW workers that has said they will work on armies and then add something to that army that did sell well. Let me see if i can't find that.
Theres only 2 ways to MAKE something cheap and 1 of those ways is damn near impossible to achieve cuz humanity sucks.
1. Get more people into the hobby - this means more money for GW and this only helps warhammer grow MORE. If this game had 50 million people playing it we'd be seeing a lot of different things.
2. Set the price. How? Mass stop buying. Get a good portion like 70% of the people that play this game and just STOP buying until GW is forced to lower their prices to a lower point. This has huge side effects on everything and will likely NEVER happen. But supply meets demand and if theres no demand?
So the two ways to make the game cheaper involve either expanding the market in a massive way or reducing it in a massive way. Remembering that both directions have to be maintained for the long term.
If you go on a huge "no one buys" campaign for a weekend that's fine. In fact GW just had a whole month of not a single person buying a single product from them and they are still functional. You'd have to maintain lower sales for a very very long period of time to affect prices. In addition the most likely early result wouldn't be lower prices, it would be attempts at investment to reinvigorate the market and if that failed - axing products. Cutting the production down to the most profitable lines. So chances are all those wonderful specialist games we like would steadily vanish; all those side games gone.
Expanding the market is far more likely to happen and far more beneficial for all involved. Everyone basically wins.
don't buy anything from GW or OVP (minis, colours, terrain), it does not matter if you go with second hand or 3rd party, it will save you a lot
get a generic army and don't use an original theme
specially Marines are cheap if you are generic and use the models for different factions (so no need to buy new models if you want to start a new army, just need a new codex)
Rahdok wrote: Theres only 2 ways to MAKE something cheap and 1 of those ways is damn near impossible to achieve cuz humanity sucks.
1. Get more people into the hobby - this means more money for GW and this only helps warhammer grow MORE. If this game had 50 million people playing it we'd be seeing a lot of different things.
2. Set the price. How? Mass stop buying. Get a good portion like 70% of the people that play this game and just STOP buying until GW is forced to lower their prices to a lower point. This has huge side effects on everything and will likely NEVER happen. But supply meets demand and if theres no demand?
Both won't make the game cheaper but just more expensive
if GW does not sell it, they make it cost more so that the lower sales will give them the same amount of profit (and those left will pay any price)
If the game gets bigger, it won't get cheaper as there is no reason to sell for less if more people are willing to pay the current price or more
and both points work against each other anyway as more people playing but less people buying will only result in GW replacing that game with something else and start from scratch (been there, done that)
Well, legally speaking making something for your own use breaks a looooooooot fewer laws in many places than participating in a financial transaction for something that is someone else's IP.
After all, nothing is stopping you from sculpting an identical model to some Forgeworld sculpt out of clay or greenstuff or something...it's just a vastly more technologically advanced method of doing that.
Technically, sculpting an identical copy of a Forgeworld sculpt is copyright infringement, regardless of whether you do it with putty or on a PC. The difference is that GW have generally not minded one-offs (and used to say as much on their legal page) as an expression of the hobby, only stomping on people casting their reproductions.
Rahdok wrote: 2. Set the price. How? Mass stop buying. Get a good portion like 70% of the people that play this game and just STOP buying until GW is forced to lower their prices to a lower point. This has huge side effects on everything and will likely NEVER happen. But supply meets demand and if theres no demand?
Assuming you stick with 40k & only your GK going forward, you'll find that your hobby is considerably cheaper here on out.
(assuming no piracy/access to free rules) You'll be investing in new books on occasion - a new rule book every 4 years or so, a new codex every 4-5 years, possibly the annual CA books &/or things like PA. Eventually as $ permits, some additional models. And some paint + supplies - or paying someone to paint.
Oh the store in my area went bankrupt, so without a place to play my hobbby may as well not exist. I just wish I could have played more with PA4. I got it mid Feb, just after winter break. and on 2ed of march goverment locked everything up. Played total of 3 games with the new rules.
Paint wise I am also done, because the army was fully painted asided for 2 rhinos. that are just silver.
Two "just silver rhinos" eh? Well, now's the time to fix that. Watch a few paint tutorials, get a few brushes and some paints & add some details. Doesn't have to be crazy stuff. Start by painting the tracks. Add a bit of Nuln Oil shade to the exhausts, paint the vision slits & the weapons. Add unit markings.
You can also scratch build them various turrets to turn them into razorbacks, predators, etc.
As for gaming? Have you heard of Table Top Simulator on Steam? I hear you can play 40k on it. Might be something to look into.
I threw them out, after I was told termintors can get inside.
besides I would not have a place to buy paints anymore. The store is gone, and painting just for painting is not fun for me. I never like art stuff at school, to no small part to the fact that I was bad at it.
I think that buying in to w40k, and more specific in to my army was worse mistake I made ever, and I did a fair amount of stupid gak, before going to a sports school. My sister is 3 months younger then me, with her confirmation money, she bought herself a tablet and a bike. She used both almost every day for the last 2+ years. I don't think I have seen her being unhappy about either ever.
I was happy about the stuff I bought till game 5-7, and it only got worse the more I got to know about w40k, GW and how they update stuff. I was super hyped for PA4, but got to use it 3 times in total. All in all w40k, I think, taught me a lot about life in general
Well, legally speaking making something for your own use breaks a looooooooot fewer laws in many places than participating in a financial transaction for something that is someone else's IP.
After all, nothing is stopping you from sculpting an identical model to some Forgeworld sculpt out of clay or greenstuff or something...it's just a vastly more technologically advanced method of doing that.
Technically, sculpting an identical copy of a Forgeworld sculpt is copyright infringement, regardless of whether you do it with putty or on a PC. The difference is that GW have generally not minded one-offs (and used to say as much on their legal page) as an expression of the hobby, only stomping on people casting their reproductions
No, as long as you don't sell a 1:1 copy there is no copyright infringement and GW can do nothing about.
they don't accept those because they are nice but because they can do nothing about it as long as people don't start selling it
Karol wrote: I threw them out, after I was told termintors can get inside.
All in all w40k, I think, taught me a lot about life in general
I'm not sure how much it taught you about life compared to perhaps how much it helped teach you about yourself. Perhaps also your perceptions of others - although if your perceptions are accurate then you seem to live with the worst local gaming group ever heard of.
Hmmmm....yeah, I think it was that stupid vacuum cleaner a couple of months ago that fell apart and the company got me on some stupid warranty technicality. That was the last time I wasted 300$ on something completely stupid.
Of course, I'm making sure to spend 2 to 3 years complaining about it on a vacuum forum, as you do.
You can also stretch the value of your plastic by making strategic decisions about your collection/blundering into happy accidents (in my case).
My Slaanesh Daemons work for 40K, AoS and Kill Team. My Renegades work for 40K, Kill Team and Necromunda.
In 40K, they can be run as any one of R&H, GSC or AM.
----------------------------
It is still an infringement of IP rights and is still actionable at law. However, if you haven't suffered any damages, or have suffered only very slight damages, then your case will be dismissed as 'de minimis non curat lex'.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
well the models don't have to just pay for production, they have to pay salaries, bonuses, dividends, generate money to replace broken machines, molds, new buildings, pay for the adds and the storage space. Not saying that GW isn't making good money, they seem to be doing real good, but the X cents per sprue that turns in to 35$ at the store is probably a bid miss leading.
Not to get off topic, but the thing that bothers me is the arbitrary nature of GW pricing. I get that more detailed kits are going to be more expensive relative to their plastic. The price is correlated somewhat to game point values. They seem to price things based on how many the players are expected to use. You can see this in any faction's Troops vs Elites kits.
I also understand bundles cost less than the sum of their parts. However, when the Start Collecting boxes offer 30-40% discounts, you have to wonder about the individual prices. As an AdMech player, why would I ever buy a Dunecrawler at $75 over a Start Collecting at $95?
Look at the cost of the models which come with the Warhammer: Conquest magazine.
2 Chaos Spawn are £25 direct from GW, but with Hachette taking a cut, GW can still make a profit on selling them for £8.
I get that GW have additional overheads - rent, staff costs, printing the instructions and cardboard box, possibly distribution - but come on now...
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Altho you are right , it feels wrong for those tiny bits of plastic to be sold probably X4 what they cost to make.
well the models don't have to just pay for production, they have to pay salaries, bonuses, dividends, generate money to replace broken machines, molds, new buildings, pay for the adds and the storage space. Not saying that GW isn't making good money, they seem to be doing real good, but the X cents per sprue that turns in to 35$ at the store is probably a bid miss leading.
Not to get off topic, but the thing that bothers me is the arbitrary nature of GW pricing. I get that more detailed kits are going to be more expensive relative to their plastic. The price is correlated somewhat to game point values. They seem to price things based on how many the players are expected to use. You can see this in any faction's Troops vs Elites kits.
I also understand bundles cost less than the sum of their parts. However, when the Start Collecting boxes offer 30-40% discounts, you have to wonder about the individual prices. As an AdMech player, why would I ever buy a Dunecrawler at $75 over a Start Collecting at $95?
Look at the cost of the models which come with the Warhammer: Conquest magazine.
2 Chaos Spawn are £25 direct from GW, but with Hachette taking a cut, GW can still make a profit on selling them for £8.
I get that GW have additional overheads - rent, staff costs, printing the instructions and cardboard box, possibly distribution - but come on now...
...Come on now, what? Have you ever managed overheads for a commercial product? Do you know how many things based on cents' worth of chinese plastic end up having a perfectly reasonable end retail price of 50+ USD?
I get that GW have additional overheads - rent, staff costs, printing the instructions and cardboard box, possibly distribution - but come on now...
What do you mean 'possibly' distribution? Yes, distribution. The cost of their staff, buildings, machinery, uniforms, fitting out retail stores, IT equipment and services, phone bills, office furniture, stationery... Every single thing that GW as a company pays for, it pays for out of money raised by selling miniatures, paints, licenced video games, etc.
Karol wrote: I threw them out, after I was told termintors can get inside.
All in all w40k, I think, taught me a lot about life in general
I'm not sure how much it taught you about life compared to perhaps how much it helped teach you about yourself. Perhaps also your perceptions of others - although if your perceptions are accurate then you seem to live with the worst local gaming group ever heard of.
read thew news about what is happening in my country. the people at my store were neither, better nor worse then avarge people in my country.
And the main lesson I learned from all of this is, which is always a problem for me, is that the stuff people say or tell, is almost never what they mean. Am not sure there is anything new for me to learn about myself, besides the fact that what people tell me about me seems to be right.
Hmmmm....yeah, I think it was that stupid vacuum cleaner a couple of months ago that fell apart and the company got me on some stupid warranty technicality. That was the last time I wasted 300$ on something completely stupid.
Of course, I'm making sure to spend 2 to 3 years complaining about it on a vacuum forum, as you do.
I don't think I am following you. what do Vacuums have to do with w40k? 300$ was my comfirmation money, I am never going to get money like that till I go to work, and even then 300$ is a lot in my country. As for why I am still here, I think I said it before. I wanted to first learn how to play my army the right way. And it took me a long time to understand that the army was both bad, and the unit selection I had was even worse. Then it took me even longer to understand that GW is not just going to fix it, just because it is bad. And now I am here, because the schools are closed in my country. I have no trainings, and nothing to do at home. So I am bored.
What do you mean 'possibly' distribution? Yes, distribution. The cost of their staff, buildings, machinery, uniforms, fitting out retail stores, IT equipment and services, phone bills, office furniture, stationery... Every single thing that GW as a company pays for, it pays for out of money raised by selling miniatures, paints, licenced video games, etc.
and all of this does not matter because as long as GW makes a high yearly profit
all those costs are covered with the stuff they are selling and there is still enough left, which means there is room to decrease the prices (instead of increase) and still cover all the costs
it is not that GW needs those high prices to keep the company running, they need those high prices to make more profit every year and keep the shareholders satisfied
No, as long as you don't sell a 1:1 copy there is no copyright infringement and GW can do nothing about.
If you copy something that is protected by copyright, you have infringed on that copyright. That's literally what copyright does.
If it's for personal use only, then the chances of that actually leading to any sort of action are remote to none, since the 'damages' in that case are miniscule... but it is still technically an infringement.
I get that GW have additional overheads - rent, staff costs, printing the instructions and cardboard box, possibly distribution - but come on now...
What do you mean 'possibly' distribution?
Presumably the spawn kits which GW sell directly through their webstore don't incur as much in the way of distribution as those which are sold through their stores or independent retailers.
Crispy78 wrote: Yes, distribution. The cost of their staff, buildings, machinery, uniforms, fitting out retail stores, IT equipment and services, phone bills, office furniture, stationery... Every single thing that GW as a company pays for, it pays for out of money raised by selling miniatures, paints, licenced video games, etc.
Those costs are all still baked in to the £8 spawn just as much as they are the £25 spawn.
No, as long as you don't sell a 1:1 copy there is no copyright infringement and GW can do nothing about.
If you copy something that is protected by copyright, you have infringed on that copyright. That's literally what copyright does.
If it's for personal use only, then the chances of that actually leading to any sort of action are remote to none, since the 'damages' in that case are miniscule... but it is still technically an infringement.
This.
It doesn’t have to be even close to exact.
Anything that shares any key details or ideas can actually breach copyright.
Selling such is massively a no go zone.
Personal use still breaches it but it’s much more relaxed.
My local GW had no issues that I was moulding skaven engineer heads for my globadiers as I wasn’t buying 60 doom wheel kits for heads.
If I were to sell those though it would be a different story entirely.
To a degree, selling parts advertised as compatible with warhammer can cause issues, as with displaying your own parts on models.
That’s why most companies that do so do not display their minis side by side or on GW models.
No, as long as you don't sell a 1:1 copy there is no copyright infringement and GW can do nothing about.
If you copy something that is protected by copyright, you have infringed on that copyright. That's literally what copyright does.
If it's for personal use only, then the chances of that actually leading to any sort of action are remote to none, since the 'damages' in that case are miniscule... but it is still technically an infringement.
This.
It doesn’t have to be even close to exact.
Anything that shares any key details or ideas can actually breach copyright.
might be a UK thing than, but with our copyright law, making a Rhino out of MDF, Paper, Plasticcard or 3D print one (if I make my own STL design/file) is totally legal as long as I don't sell them
if I start selling it, it will depend on how close it is to the original if it is legal or not (as inspired by or copied makes a difference, not even close to exact in mdf will be enough to legally sell it)
To a degree, selling parts advertised as compatible with warhammer can cause issues, as with displaying your own parts on models.
That’s why most companies that do so do not display their minis side by side or on GW models.
this is totally fine and as long as the GW models are clearly marked as being GW IP etc
most companies just don't do it because a 2 man garage unit does not have the money to go to court if GW sends a letter (even with a high chance to win)
there is a difference what GW wanted international Copyright law to be and what it really is (a reason why to shut down all those community and fan projects around 2008 was that GW learned from a German 40k movie project that German CP law is very different and they got into panic mode)
No, as long as you don't sell a 1:1 copy there is no copyright infringement and GW can do nothing about.
If you copy something that is protected by copyright, you have infringed on that copyright. That's literally what copyright does.
If it's for personal use only, then the chances of that actually leading to any sort of action are remote to none, since the 'damages' in that case are miniscule... but it is still technically an infringement.
This.
It doesn’t have to be even close to exact.
Anything that shares any key details or ideas can actually breach copyright.
might be a UK thing than, but with our copyright law, making a Rhino out of MDF, Paper, Plasticcard or 3D print one (if I make my own STL design/file) is totally legal as long as I don't sell them
if I start selling it, it will depend on how close it is to the original if it is legal or not (as inspired by or copied makes a difference, not even close to exact in mdf will be enough to legally sell it)
To a degree, selling parts advertised as compatible with warhammer can cause issues, as with displaying your own parts on models.
That’s why most companies that do so do not display their minis side by side or on GW models.
this is totally fine and as long as the GW models are clearly marked as being GW IP etc
most companies just don't do it because a 2 man garage unit does not have the money to go to court if GW sends a letter (even with a high chance to win)
The main issue is that it’s not legal, being UK based it follows their laws.
Copyright does not distinguish massively between making them and doing so to sell, breaching their IP does that instantly regardless of the reason or intent.
They just take a less hard stance on personal use.
Displaying warhammer models with your own or with parts made by yourself/company breaches it too.
You are using their IP to display your products.
That’s caught out several companies despite stating its for display purposes and that IPs are owned by GW.
Edit: your example shows a model that looks nothing similar.
It shares a door size and that is all.
It’s advertised as an alternative, not as that product or compatible with that product.
Crispy78 wrote: Yes, distribution. The cost of their staff, buildings, machinery, uniforms, fitting out retail stores, IT equipment and services, phone bills, office furniture, stationery... Every single thing that GW as a company pays for, it pays for out of money raised by selling miniatures, paints, licenced video games, etc.
Those costs are all still baked in to the £8 spawn just as much as they are the £25 spawn.
That's assuming they make a profit on that particular transaction. It probably evens out when other issues still cost £8 and you only get a pot of paint bundled. It's also a reasonable assumption that the Conquest series as a whole is a loss-leader to get more people into the hobby and buying full-priced kits.
I get that GW have additional overheads - rent, staff costs, printing the instructions and cardboard box, possibly distribution - but come on now...
What do you mean 'possibly' distribution?
Presumably the spawn kits which GW sell directly through their webstore don't incur as much in the way of distribution as those which are sold through their stores or independent retailers.
Crispy78 wrote: Yes, distribution. The cost of their staff, buildings, machinery, uniforms, fitting out retail stores, IT equipment and services, phone bills, office furniture, stationery... Every single thing that GW as a company pays for, it pays for out of money raised by selling miniatures, paints, licenced video games, etc.
Those costs are all still baked in to the £8 spawn just as much as they are the £25 spawn.
The reason so many older kits with the comparatively lower prices get moved to webstore-only is literally because GW would be selling them at a loss if they redesigned the packaging to mesh with newer product and put them on the shelf.
Martel732 wrote: Span your collecting over 20 years. Don't buy an entire army all at once. Don't buy the gak units for a given army.
Generally agree on spacing out purchasing. Sure, buy a nice core of units (or just start with Kill Team!), but you don't need everything all at once.
However, I will disagree on not buying bad units generally speaking. The bad units of one edition can become the stellar units of others, and the inverse is true too (Guard Veterans, for example). Pick the units that you think look good from a playstyle or aesthetic perspective, if you're interested in getting involved beyond the immediate rules. But, if all you care for is winning in the current edition, sure, get the meta units.
Martel732 wrote: Span your collecting over 20 years. Don't buy an entire army all at once. Don't buy the gak units for a given army.
Generally agree on spacing out purchasing. Sure, buy a nice core of units (or just start with Kill Team!), but you don't need everything all at once.
However, I will disagree on not buying bad units generally speaking. The bad units of one edition can become the stellar units of others, and the inverse is true too (Guard Veterans, for example). Pick the units that you think look good from a playstyle or aesthetic perspective, if you're interested in getting involved beyond the immediate rules. But, if all you care for is winning in the current edition, sure, get the meta units.
But you spaced out. So get them only when they are decent. I know GW will randomly dumpster them in the future. I own six predators. Trust me. I know.
Martel732 wrote: Span your collecting over 20 years. Don't buy an entire army all at once. Don't buy the gak units for a given army.
Generally agree on spacing out purchasing. Sure, buy a nice core of units (or just start with Kill Team!), but you don't need everything all at once.
However, I will disagree on not buying bad units generally speaking. The bad units of one edition can become the stellar units of others, and the inverse is true too (Guard Veterans, for example). Pick the units that you think look good from a playstyle or aesthetic perspective, if you're interested in getting involved beyond the immediate rules. But, if all you care for is winning in the current edition, sure, get the meta units.
You don't even need meta to win tho. Just don't take the terrible units. Like TH/SS terminators in a Land Raider.
Asking what units to avoid" is better than asking "what units to get?"
I want to know what kind of galaxy brain level you have to be operating at to space your collection out over 20 years and not buy any crappy units in that time, that's amazing. we've had what, six out of eight editions in the past 20 years?
Martel732 wrote: Crappy at the time. 90% of it is garbage now. Still beats buying a unit that is bad at the time.
Maybe. But in my experience, the best way to leave the hobby after investing a large sum of money in it is to buy a currently competitive army while you're still figuring the game out. The player who owns 12 kits and 9 different units is going to be able to weather balance changes far better than the player who owns 12 kits and 4 different units. Just in the cross-over from 7th to 8th we had a player who outright purchased a guard summoning spam army (whoops) a player who purchased a WK/Scatbike army, and a player who purchased a drop pod army based on that crazy LE formation who then all got utterly hosed by the edition changing and all their builds being terrible/now illegal. Even in the least extreme cases, I had a competitively minded player start, complain each game that he had to field like 50 tzaangors and 0 rubrics to be at all competitive, and as soon as he got done painting the tzaangors the deep strike changes dropped making the whole strategy ineffective, then rubrics got like 4 buffs in a row. If he'd just been buying and painting what he wanted to in the first place, he'd have started with a less competitive army but at least one he enjoyed while he was building and painting it, and then he would have had something solidly upper-mid tier later on when he got everything built and painted.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe there is no good answer. Most of the units I like have been garbage for over a decade now.
I've been playing Nids and DE from start of 5th. I feel you very much. At least DE has good units finally and i just sold off my nids b.c i was tired of them. Its the same 4 units that are good for over 10yrs Tyrant, Genestealers, Rippers, Hive guard. Anything else that was good is gone or changed to be bad (Pod, Doom, Tervigon, etc..)
But at least for DE venoms, raiders, warriors, a core of units has almost been a "must" each army has a "must" from 1 edition to another for the most part unless the reset the army (Primaris marines). So there is at least a good core to get players into.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe there is no good answer. Most of the units I like have been garbage for over a decade now.
Can you maybe see how enforcing a level of non-competitiveness by all players involved purchasing a wide variety of units can help to insulate a play group from all but the wildest of balance changes and lead to everyone feeling less pressured overall to continuously buy new models to stay competitive? The most common cause of a "Casual at all Costs" attitude within a gaming group that I've seen has been literal, monetary cost associated with keeping up with the competitive joneses.
The whole entire castellan meta completely bypassed our 50+ person gaming group because nobody, not one person, bought a castellan. The one guy who bought the kit built a valiant. Same with the tau drone spam meta, same with the loyal 32/soup meta in general.
It isn't perfect, obviously, current meta is an ideal case in point example of how Games Workshop continually finds ways to outdo itself in creating bonkers imbalanced crap. But the costs of not being able to push the game to its competitive limit have never seemed to outweigh the actual cost in dollars of not buying 3 of whatever the new OP thing is whenever the meta shifts in its favor.
I suppose, but it only takes a couple people to bring that arrangement down. It is way easier to be bleeding edge in Starcraft or League of Legends lol.
Starting warhammer is expensive, but continuing to play it afterwards can be much, much cheaper.
For the last years, I have been spending exactly 20€ per month on 40k, including paints, books(PA, CA, vigilus), measuring tapes and dice. I started doing this because I was pretty short on money after my daughter was born, but I still wanted to be able to buy hobby stuff despite that. It's working pretty well, so I simply never stopped doing it that way.
the_scotsman 788009 10791322 wrote:
Can you maybe see how enforcing a level of non-competitiveness by all players involved purchasing a wide variety of units can help to insulate a play group from all but the wildest of balance changes and lead to everyone feeling less pressured overall to continuously buy new models to stay competitive? The most common cause of a "Casual at all Costs" attitude within a gaming group that I've seen has been literal, monetary cost associated with keeping up with the competitive joneses.
The whole entire castellan meta completely bypassed our 50+ person gaming group because nobody, not one person, bought a castellan. The one guy who bought the kit built a valiant. Same with the tau drone spam meta, same with the loyal 32/soup meta in general.
It isn't perfect, obviously, current meta is an ideal case in point example of how Games Workshop continually finds ways to outdo itself in creating bonkers imbalanced crap. But the costs of not being able to push the game to its competitive limit have never seemed to outweigh the actual cost in dollars of not buying 3 of whatever the new OP thing is whenever the meta shifts in its favor.
Only that requires people to be really rich. If people have, on avarge, problem with aquiring a 2000pts army, then they are not going to buy 5000pts of stuff, and even if they do, the chance of them starting with the bad stuff is really small. They would have to be tricked in to buying bad stuff, or the stuff they bought had to suffer some drastic nerfs. Plus if someone does buy 2000pts of an army, and it is bad, and by bad I mean it feels worse then what people localy play, it is really hard to convince someone to buy more stuff. specialy as buying more stuff doesnt asure a better quality of gaming.
Also I have the question, how the 20 year thing work, when your under 20 years? I mean in 20 years there maybe no GW or models. How many people that started 20 years ago still play? I mean the majority of people at my store were people that were 20 or 30 plus, but am not sure how their number compare to the number of people that started, but left. I have my doubts, and no data, that my area always had the same 20 something people playing. specialy as out of the 7 people that started with me only 2 were still playing after two years.
Overall been doing this GW thing 31 years now, starting with WHFB 3rd ed.
Been playing 40k since '92. (so 28 years & 8 editions)
In the circles I play miniatures games (not just Gw stuff) in we count several in the 20yr+ bracket, several in the 5-15yr or so range, and several more at 5yrs or less.
None of these are people I started with.
As for the "What If...." concerning 20 yrs in the future? You don't really worry about it. You play games in the here & now.
Sometimes - like at present with this pandemic, when work/family makes it all but impossible, or when you find an edition that just doesn't satisfy you - it works out that you don't play much/at all. So you play some other game/catch up on the painting etc/or you put the {40k} into storage & do something else completely for awhile.
The one thing you shouldn't do if you quit? (unless you're dead certain you won't be back) Get rid of your models. You think they're expensive now? Check back in 20 yrs..... There'll have been so many price hikes.... So you put them & the books into watertight containers & store them safely away.
On GW not existing in 20 yrs: Doesn't matter. The books they've published & models they've made will still exist.
I started with 40K in 1996. I had been playing 1:285 Microarmour. The box art on some Space Marine/Titanicus product caught my eye. I picked up some Space Marines and went with Dark Angels. I probably spent $400 in 1996 Canadian dollars on my force. I still roll the Predators from time to time, and Azrael still strides the tabletop some 24 years later. The Tacticals, Devastators and Assault Squad got repainted by my son as Flesh Tearers when 8th dropped.
I am still playing Dark Angels 24 years later. The metal Scouts that I bought circa 97/98 are still staples in my lists today. I spent around $300 CAD on Primaris in the first six months or so of 8th Edition. I estimate I've played 100 or so Matched Games at the FLGS' with that core force. The Intercessors and Hellblasters have been a great gaming investment. I spent $150 on Black Knights who have also had many, many games on the tabletop - no regrets. The $110 Stormraven? More of a display piece. The $90 Dark Shroud? Worth every penny!
The $300 I spent on WHFB Dwarves in 2001? Money not well spent since I didn't play them. The $400 on LOTR models? Also not well spent since I didn't play. The $500 on Epic? The collecting was fun, but nobody played so sad face. The money I've ****ed away on beer over the last 30 years? Who knows...The $120 on the 40K 2nd Ed Box Set? Money well spent! All those models are still in play, even the buildings and the cardboard Ork Dread is proudly on my shelf!
Jidmah wrote: Starting warhammer is expensive, but continuing to play it afterwards can be much, much cheaper.
For the last years, I have been spending exactly 20€ per month on 40k, including paints, books(PA, CA, vigilus), measuring tapes and dice.
I started doing this because I was pretty short on money after my daughter was born, but I still wanted to be able to buy hobby stuff despite that. It's working pretty well, so I simply never stopped doing it that way.
That is about the wisest way to follow the hobby. Slow, measured and planned. I commend you and that way does also make it not too expensive to continue. Though I agree the start up for the game these days is intense. Pricing out only doing a battalion of moderate size for sisters is looking to end up around 4 to 5 hundred US dollars. That is crazy.
That is still awful expensive and not taking into account the other items such as time, paint, storage which further bloat the cost out.
Point is, back when I started you spent like 200 maybe a bit more and you'd be set for a good long time. Now, that barely gets a toe in with an actual army. As for killteam not everyone enjoys killteam, I know I don't enjoy it much.
It's an expensive hobby to start up in a number of ways really can't make it cheap. Maintaining it can be cheap if you follow moderation but even that is hard with the level of burn and churn GW do which has gone up intensely high. When I started, you got a codex, rule book, it would be a good 3 years or more before you'd need either of those again.
Now ? It's a codex maybe every year or two along with multiple splat books you may need lets say 2, at minimum every year and perhaps a new, revised rulebook every couple years. Manageable if you only run one army, run a few though ? That'll cost ya with releases like every week.
The only good thing from this current pandemic is a slow down in new stuff for a bit. I'm actually kinda grateful for that. In the longer term with how long it may be before players can really mingle again, this could be a rough time for the hobby but maybe a time we may see actual deals or lowered prices.
Moriarty wrote: So, 10 dollars a week over a year? A month to get into Kill Team?
That is a lot of money. I think a lot of people would struggle to pull that in a month. But kill team seems like a good option, or any skirmish game . Much cheaper, and still is a game, easier to paint and control what ever the local meta is. Only problem is finding people to play skirmish systems. w40k seems to make up the majority of everything table top.
By the way was there ever any attempt from GW or someone private to check what the player retention in w40k is? Like out of a 100 people starting how many still play the game after a 1, 5 and 10 years.
Moriarty wrote: So, 10 dollars a week over a year? A month to get into Kill Team?
That is a lot of money. I think a lot of people would struggle to pull that in a month. But kill team seems like a good option, or any skirmish game . Much cheaper, and still is a game, easier to paint and control what ever the local meta is. Only problem is finding people to play skirmish systems. w40k seems to make up the majority of everything table top.
$10 a week is variable depending on a persons income and situation - for some it will be a fortune, for others they could just stop going out to eat once a week at a restaurant and save that much and for others they regularly lose that much down the back of the couch and don't notice it at all.
Fact is any hobby has a base-line cost and whilst you can work around getting in cheaper (eg secondhand), the new product will have a generally fixed price of entry. You can argue about it as much as you like, but so long as the parent company is earning a healthy income and generating profit, they wil continue to charge that much.
As for GW being the only name, that's often true. It's big and because its big it remains big. However with effort you can start up any game locally if you want. You might need to buy two starter forces for the game; the rules and materials and make a show with a half decent game board and do some introduction games. Ergo you have to be a passionate salesman to help sell the game to your local area. To learn the rules and provide demos and entice people in. Nicely painted models of your own help
That would be $520 over a year, that should be plenty to start you pretty much any army you want.
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AngryAngel80 wrote: Now ? It's a codex maybe every year or two along with multiple splat books you may need lets say 2, at minimum every year and perhaps a new, revised rulebook every couple years. Manageable if you only run one army, run a few though ? That'll cost ya with releases like every week.
The only good thing from this current pandemic is a slow down in new stuff for a bit. I'm actually kinda grateful for that. In the longer term with how long it may be before players can really mingle again, this could be a rough time for the hobby but maybe a time we may see actual deals or lowered prices.
Does it really feel that fast for you? I guess it might feel that way if you are running some variant of space marines, but even for orks I had no trouble just getting all the new stuff and more using my method. The only thing released during 8th I don't own (yet) is the squig trukk, but not for the lack of money.
Also just a point for thought - smoking is typically considered affordable by many and yet many who smoke will easily spend more than $10 a week on smokes without it impoverishing them.
Sometimes its not cost its priorities and what you choose to spend your money on.
Or, you could, you know, play smaller games and not rush people,e to play at 2,000 when they're just learning.
I played A Lot of 500-1,000 games. It took a while before we had enough folks that could play at 1,000 or higher. It wasn't until I came back for 8th that everyone and their dog played 2,000, which was basically my entire collection.
Yeah $520 a year is fairly modest. I have a monthly budget that I either save or spend for hobby expenses. I hit 20 years in the hobby in December and I still have the armies I started with. I've bought and sold different armies throughout the years but that was a personal decision.
Overread wrote: Also just a point for thought - smoking is typically considered affordable by many and yet many who smoke will easily spend more than $10 a week on smokes without it impoverishing them.
Sometimes its not cost its priorities and what you choose to spend your money on.
that is 33 packs of cigarates in 7 days. One would have to be a hard smoker to go through that many. Technicly possible.
to me 520$ is a huge amount of money. people make around 460-470$ per month. That is more then a month of salary of an adult person.
$10 a week is variable depending on a persons income and situation - for some it will be a fortune, for others they could just stop going out to eat once a week at a restaurant and save that much and for others they regularly lose that much down the back of the couch and don't notice it at all.
Fact is any hobby has a base-line cost and whilst you can work around getting in cheaper (eg secondhand), the new product will have a generally fixed price of entry. You can argue about it as much as you like, but so long as the parent company is earning a healthy income and generating profit, they wil continue to charge that much.
I understand that. I just hope that GW warned people that an army is going to cost 600-700$ or more. Because right now to a new person that never played table top games, it is shown to people as if a start collecting was a full army, and a box of troops and an character was enough to start playing. which is not true, because basic size games are 2k pts.
We're getting a bit of a disconnect here because a Polish $ isn't equal to a USA $.
That said 3seconds of googling suggests that a typical pack of 20 Cigarettes is $3.92 so $10 would get you two and a bit packs, which if we round it up a bit would let you get 3 packs a week. That's a long way from 33 packs.
That said there are likely cheaper brands and options on the market. Of course if your country has exceptionally cheap brands then, yes, you can argue that you wouldn't spend $10 a week on smoking. However that's sort of missing the point in that I was more identifying how there are things we do in life (smoking, drinking, gambling, eating out) which are "not essential" parts of life. If one wishes to take up a new hobby (like wargaming) then sometimes one has to sacrifice another luxury in order to entertain the new one.
Of course if you're earning only enough to just cover your monthly expenses to live then, as Amisphrn says, you are simply not in a position to take up a hobby which has higher costs. Even though long term wargaming is cheap, it still has a cost.
AT that point you either have to wait; go for secondhand; be content with a very slow growth of your collection or try something else until such time as you can earn more and thus be able to afford the hobby.
Cigarettes are cheap as sin in Poland, it's not uncommon for Germans to drive to Poland and return with a trunk full of cigarettes. Mind you, those are usually none of the big brands but ones that look very similar, so using Malboro which tend to be one of the most expensive brands to compare might not reflect the real numbers.
That said, 33 Packs for $10 would mean .33 cents per pack and there is no way for that to be true.
Also note that Poland has law defining a minimum wage of ~$620, which roughly corresponds to what people around Karol seem to be earning. I don't think anyone living of minimum wage is able to afford 40k anywhere. You can't have a hobby that costs money if you have no expendable income.
Karol wrote: I understand that. I just hope that GW warned people that an army is going to cost 600-700$ or more. Because right now to a new person that never played table top games, it is shown to people as if a start collecting was a full army, and a box of troops and an character was enough to start playing. which is not true, because basic size games are 2k pts.
2k points basic? Not where I am. 2k points for competition, perhaps. But to play the game you really can do it with a box set & a character. Or either if you don’t want to play CP. It really is that flexible.
That said, 33 Packs for $10 would mean .33 cents per pack and there is no way for that to be true.
Maybe if you try to buy cigarates at store. If you buy them on the market from belarusians, like more or less everyone does, then it is 0,50$ per pack around 1$ if you want to buy mentol. But cheapest is buying tabaco in bulk.
That said, 33 Packs for $10 would mean .33 cents per pack and there is no way for that to be true.
Maybe if you try to buy cigarates at store. If you buy them on the market from belarusians, like more or less everyone does, then it is 0,50$ per pack around 1$ if you want to buy mentol. But cheapest is buying tabaco in bulk.
You would have to compare prices for bootlegged cigarettes to prices of illegally re-casted 40k miniatures though.
And I'm very sure that large parts of those cigarettes are not tobacco and would make a regular Malboro look as healthy as salad in comparison. Source: multiple polish friends funding their vacations back home through cigarettes.
the_scotsman 788009 10791322 wrote:
Can you maybe see how enforcing a level of non-competitiveness by all players involved purchasing a wide variety of units can help to insulate a play group from all but the wildest of balance changes and lead to everyone feeling less pressured overall to continuously buy new models to stay competitive? The most common cause of a "Casual at all Costs" attitude within a gaming group that I've seen has been literal, monetary cost associated with keeping up with the competitive joneses.
The whole entire castellan meta completely bypassed our 50+ person gaming group because nobody, not one person, bought a castellan. The one guy who bought the kit built a valiant. Same with the tau drone spam meta, same with the loyal 32/soup meta in general.
It isn't perfect, obviously, current meta is an ideal case in point example of how Games Workshop continually finds ways to outdo itself in creating bonkers imbalanced crap. But the costs of not being able to push the game to its competitive limit have never seemed to outweigh the actual cost in dollars of not buying 3 of whatever the new OP thing is whenever the meta shifts in its favor.
Only that requires people to be really rich. If people have, on avarge, problem with aquiring a 2000pts army, then they are not going to buy 5000pts of stuff, and even if they do, the chance of them starting with the bad stuff is really small. They would have to be tricked in to buying bad stuff, or the stuff they bought had to suffer some drastic nerfs. Plus if someone does buy 2000pts of an army, and it is bad, and by bad I mean it feels worse then what people localy play, it is really hard to convince someone to buy more stuff. specialy as buying more stuff doesnt asure a better quality of gaming.
Also I have the question, how the 20 year thing work, when your under 20 years? I mean in 20 years there maybe no GW or models. How many people that started 20 years ago still play? I mean the majority of people at my store were people that were 20 or 30 plus, but am not sure how their number compare to the number of people that started, but left. I have my doubts, and no data, that my area always had the same 20 something people playing. specialy as out of the 7 people that started with me only 2 were still playing after two years.
I mean it's objectively just the opposite. I fully understand the sentiments of some folks who gripe about how annoying it is to have a clique of people enforcing a casual meta (And boy howdy believe me I have experienced that in its most extreme form. In 7th ed I played one game with a group that told me to not come back because my imperial guard army, one of the weakest at the time, had 3 identical Leman Russ tanks in it and I was seen to be "spamming"....I had an all-metal vostroyan army with 3rd edition leman russ tanks, which only had one gun at the time which is why they were identical lol) but where I disagree with them is in the motive.
Almost all the time, a whole group keeping a meta casual is not because "they can't handle losing", it's because keeping it means people don't have to spend money. The only balance swing of the competitive meta that affected our group at all this entire edition was the crazy space marine bs that's been happening the last few months. INDIVIDUALS who try to impose casual restrictions on INDIVIDUAL opponents often do it because of scrub mentality.
Guard meta? We have three guard players: one plays a tank company, one plays scions in valkyries, and one plays catachan veterans in chimeras. Throughout the whole entire "guard are so OP waaaah too many guardsmen conscripts OP no wait infantry squads OP" meta, all three of those guys held perfectly steady in terms of winrate, and nobody had any problems playing against them with armies like necrons or dark angels, which were bottom tier at the time.
Same story with Eldar - our two eldar players had an all-wraith list and an all aspect warriors list, so the whole Eldar being super strong competitive meta thing...just didn't touch us at all. And knights - very few people use em, the ones that do either use 2 armigers or 1 regular knight. Nobody's got a knight army, nobody had a castellan.
The marine meta torpedoed our group hard because even the super casual iron hands player with all tactical marines in rhinos, vindicators, predators and dreadnoughts suddenly had a far stronger army to the point where people couldn't compete with him.
Part of this is a degree of privilege - there are two game stores fairly close by, so one of them is able to cater to competitive play while the other is more of a hobby store where most of the customers are old war veteran grandpas. So we get a lot of our players with old people coming over and going "Warhammer? I used to play warhammer 15 years ago - I still got my old space marines in the attic! Can I still use them?"
The end result is that people have to buy far, far, far fewer kits to keep up. Most people I play with own 2,000 points exactly or less than 2,000, and an even greater fraction play with existing collections and haven't bought anything at all for the current edition.
Okey but this means you more or less need 20+ people and a store to play the way you want, in an odd way which isn't the norm for your countries income or way of playing. May as well say that someone need to have a personal jet to play in location all around the world.
What you are telling me sounds like stories. When castellans were the thing, everyone here could could afford and get hand on one had one. when loyal 32 was run by everyone as fuel, everyone that could afford it or could run something similar run it. Sure maybe not every eldar player run a 11 flyer mege tournament list, but 5 flyers were in every eldar list I have seen at the store. I have never seen or heard about someone not using rules that were creating an adventage for them. the only different thing was probably the no FW stuff, because the store owner didn't want people to play with models that were 100% recasted.
And people here own 2000pts armies, mostly too, some quit the game before they have an optimised 2000pts.
And stuff like letting someone play with illegal stuff is a no go. The store was full WYSIWYG. A guy at my school made a primaris librarian with a force staff, and was not allowed to use him, because the load out was illegal for a primaris model.
You would have to compare prices for bootlegged cigarettes to prices of illegally re-casted 40k miniatures though.
not bootleged, those are normal cigarates made in a normal factory. they just don't pay the 260% tax rate there is on cigarates. Everyone who lives in smaller towns like me or in rural areas does it, same with gas , earth gas, imported cooking oil which is actually gas . only people that buy cigarates at stores are truck drivers , real hardcore addicts and belgians. But belgians are just strange.
Karol wrote: Okey but this means you more or less need 20+ people and a store to play the way you want, in an odd way which isn't the norm for your countries income or way of playing. May as well say that someone need to have a personal jet to play in location all around the world.
What you are telling me sounds like stories. When castellans were the thing, everyone here could could afford and get hand on one had one. when loyal 32 was run by everyone as fuel, everyone that could afford it or could run something similar run it. Sure maybe not every eldar player run a 11 flyer mege tournament list, but 5 flyers were in every eldar list I have seen at the store. I have never seen or heard about someone not using rules that were creating an adventage for them. the only different thing was probably the no FW stuff, because the store owner didn't want people to play with models that were 100% recasted.
And people here own 2000pts armies, mostly too, some quit the game before they have an optimised 2000pts.
And stuff like letting someone play with illegal stuff is a no go. The store was full WYSIWYG. A guy at my school made a primaris librarian with a force staff, and was not allowed to use him, because the load out was illegal for a primaris model.
You would have to compare prices for bootlegged cigarettes to prices of illegally re-casted 40k miniatures though.
not bootleged, those are normal cigarates made in a normal factory. they just don't pay the 260% tax rate there is on cigarates. Everyone who lives in smaller towns like me or in rural areas does it, same with gas , earth gas, imported cooking oil which is actually gas . only people that buy cigarates at stores are truck drivers , real hardcore addicts and belgians. But belgians are just strange.
The only thing I know of that's unusual with my group is the size of it. Most casual gaming groups tend to be just like 5-6 people who don't pay much attention to the competitive scene.
I guess to me, it's crazy that you DONT believe it's possible that for 3 months, a group of people decided not to drop 200$ on a single big crazy OP model to win a game
Don't you always say that 200$ is like, the lifetime earnings of the richest private jet-owning mogul in poland, and that mothers tell their children stories about that time that someone in town had 200$? How is it so wild and crazy that a group could exist that just doesn't feel like burning cash to win at plastic toys?
You would have to compare prices for bootlegged cigarettes to prices of illegally re-casted 40k miniatures though.
not bootleged, those are normal cigarates made in a normal factory. they just don't pay the 260% tax rate there is on cigarates. Everyone who lives in smaller towns like me or in rural areas does it, same with gas , earth gas, imported cooking oil which is actually gas .
Jidmah wrote: That would be $520 over a year, that should be plenty to start you pretty much any army you want.
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AngryAngel80 wrote: Now ? It's a codex maybe every year or two along with multiple splat books you may need lets say 2, at minimum every year and perhaps a new, revised rulebook every couple years. Manageable if you only run one army, run a few though ? That'll cost ya with releases like every week.
The only good thing from this current pandemic is a slow down in new stuff for a bit. I'm actually kinda grateful for that. In the longer term with how long it may be before players can really mingle again, this could be a rough time for the hobby but maybe a time we may see actual deals or lowered prices.
Does it really feel that fast for you? I guess it might feel that way if you are running some variant of space marines, but even for orks I had no trouble just getting all the new stuff and more using my method. The only thing released during 8th I don't own (yet) is the squig trukk, but not for the lack of money.
I have played for a long time so I had picked up a number of armies during the pacing of older editions. Like for instance I have Space wolves, Dark Angels, Deathwatch, some Vanilla marines, Tau, Dark Eldar, Deathguard, Mechanicus, Imperial Guard and just starting a small force for Sisters of battle.
So yeah, it feels like a fast pace for me and if you get and don't pirate the books you are easily spending a good amount every month. The month nothing is dropping that pertains is rare. Like I haven't even picked up the recent DA codex, Tau Codex and unsure on keeping up with the mechanicus PA book, didn't get the space wolf PA book, or the DE one ( which was pretty meh for them anyways ).
If I just played Orks, I'd imagine that would feel fine as they don't tend to get new stuff all the time. Like with my Guard, they haven't gotten new models for awhile and I've got everything you can imagine for them already so all they get is books pretty much unless i want to add a new tank, or buff some units.
Yeah, I guess if you have that many armies and you try to stay on top of all of them, that's a lot.
It also "helps" that my DG have gotten absolutely nothing after their initial release.
Jidmah wrote: Yeah, I guess if you have that many armies and you try to stay on top of all of them, that's a lot.
It also "helps" that my DG have gotten absolutely nothing after their initial release.
Thanks for the answer
The marines are really the killers to the wallet. Like DE don't get much new, ever. DG haven't gotten much, by much I mean anything since the first drops. IG haven't gotten new stuff aside from rules since the edition drop ( and no I don't consider yet another commissar to be something new as not only do I have a million of them but they are awful now ). Even Tau are relatively stagnant.
I may however be one of the only marine players who wish other armies got more attention just so they'd stop releasing things for marines for awhile. As back when I started a few of these armies you'd go like 3-4 months minimum between releases related to an army.
