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GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 06:05:01


Post by: amrogers3


Sometimes when I am on GW's site I have to scroll up to the country flag at the top of the page to see if I am in the right country because that's got to be AUD, no way that number is USD.

Disappointed every time.

It's a free market and GW sets prices at what people will pay but hot damn, $70 ($75 with tax) for 3 plastic figures (at $25/figure) just doesn't make any sense. Even when these were metal and more expensive to make they were no where near what the prices are now. Back in the day, I could get a single mini for about what lunch would cost. A really good lunch. Now, prices are just laughable.

At least their shareholders are happy I guess.










GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 06:37:15


Post by: hotsauceman1


Umm, ok?
Kinda confused what this is meant to be?
Also, metal minis are cheaper to cast than plastic.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 07:33:50


Post by: techsoldaten


Yeah, sticker shock is a thing.

EBay is a good way to get discounts. A bottle of paint stripper costs less than the difference.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 10:36:27


Post by: Nevelon


Another thing to keep in mind is inflation. Yes, GW price hikes outstrip them, but that does not mean they aren’t there. I remember buying a box of 30 marines for $20. But that was back in the ‘80s. Last I checked, $20 then is more like $45 in today’s money. So about the same cost as a box of tac marines now. Sure, I’m only getting 10 in the box, but there is just a bit more detail and options on a modern mini then the classic RTB01 (as much as I love their retro-charm).


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 11:28:27


Post by: Overread


Metal as a material is more expensive than plastic. It's also more labour intensive to produce from the moulds compared to injection moulding plastic where, once the machine is setup; it can simply churn out castings.


That said the moulds for metal are vastly cheaper than those for injection moulded plastic. This is why you see resin and metal used by so many smaller firms and start up model companies. Even companies like Privateer Press don't use in-house plastics because the setup costs for the machines and moulds is so extremely expensive. Those that do are often using companies in China who already have the factories, however that comes with a rafter of their own issues from odd building designs (parting is a skill and I'm led to understand that those with the skill in models in China are more used to airfix type kits than miniature wargame models and certainly no where near the skill of some of the staff GW has); through to poor plastic compositions and quality control issues (even GW has had those with some of their overseas products such as terrain features).


GW can do plastics because they are big enough that the mass sale of models, even now for leaders (which were once all metal) can recoup the costs for investment in the moulds and allow for reinvestment and profit and shareholder payouts.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 11:58:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Let’s go back to 1997, when I was at college (small C, secondary education, not University).

At that time, the old multipart Chaos Warriors were available. £10 for a box of 12.

I remember, because I was in the pub, won a tenner on the fruit machine and bought a box.

But hey, my ciggies were also £2.50 for 20 Sovereign. And my Beer? Can’t remember exactly, but probs in the region of £1.60 a pint.

Now?

Chaos Warriors - £30 for 16.

Pint? £4.10

Ciggies? £11.15

Rent is also way above inflation. As is my commute. And my food, gas, electric etc.

It’s almost as if rate of inflation is kinda misleading, and not used to peg any price increase for anything. Hell, even my Council Tax goes up by several times the rate of inflation.

In short? Over time, prices rise. Shocker.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 12:18:36


Post by: boyd


It's like that commencement speech - Always Wear Sunscreen. Prices will rise and you will look back and remember that when you were young, prices were fair.

Peg the price to another hobby/ vice - cigarettes were $2.50 when I was in HS. Now that same brand/pack is about $9.00 and change. Heck looking back just 10 years ago, my 2 BR/2BA flat was $825/ month. The same unit is listing for $1,485/ month now. I wouldn't say it's inflation, just the purchasing power parity you learned about in Econ 101.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 12:25:12


Post by: the_scotsman


I think for me it varies a lot. The big sticker shock item for me are vehicles these days - it just doesn't feel like once you've built a vehicle, that's an item that's worth that price.

For example, I play Dark Eldar in 40k and I play Idoneth Deepkin.

So I traded for my deepkin army, so it actually cost me ultimately an incredibly small amount of money. A while back I got the deal of a lifetime on some Vostroyans, ebayed some super old beat up 3rd ed era vehicles to support them, and wound up with nearly a 2k guard army for a total of like 200$. Then I swapped that for over 2k of Idoneth, which included 2 Akhelion Leviadons.

The leviadons are...i mean they're bigger than a Raider for sure. 1 more sprue on them. Same number of riders, but the turtle is bigger than the raider chassis - still believeable as a Raider, and I sometimes run my Idoneth as Exodites alongside my DE/harlequins.

The raider is 35 USD. The Leviadon is ONE HUNDRED FIFTEEN.

That's what I feel any time I look at the dinky little transport for admech - EIGHTY dollars? Or the new Lord of change who I kind of wa - ONE HUNDRED FORTY DOLLARS???

Basic infantry boxes have inflated from about 30$-35$ when I started, to 50$ now. That, I can basically ignore. 5$ a figure for a 10-man box, eh, it's a solid 30 hours of enjoyment painting them for me, I can deal.

Vehicles seem to have inflated from 35-50$ when I started to 80-100$ now, and I just can not fathom starting a heavy armored force today. Some factions characters, too, hoo boy are those marine players paying for being the company's cash cows. 40$ for a single power armored model, you poor slobs, at least I play the weeny factions where I still get to pay only 20-25 for a plastic character up from 15$ when I started for a metal one.

Now, the big distinction is, they do have more ways to get you in nowadays. When I started, there was the starter box, and that was it. Start collecting boxes let you buy figures for "The old days" prices and often, they're pretty much what you need to start building your army. If you want to start Daemons right now, for example, like 80% of the units in the codex are available in SC boxes, since all the mini hq characters are buildable from those kits you get in the SC's.

Many 40k factions have a similar deal, where you can get two SC boxes with some kind of online discount for about 150 bucks and generally get yourself in the vicinity of a 750-1k list just off that. Many horde armies are trickier, of course, but still you've got SC boxes like Genestealer cults that are just..never a bad thing to be buying. Ever. Just get more of those and you won't be sad.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 13:48:37


Post by: NobleGunner


It’s daylight robbery


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 13:56:48


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Nah. Just Capitalism.

GW are a large company, with lots of rent, taxes, bills and that to pay.

Let’s look at their actual profit margin, shall we? https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019-20-half-year-report.pdf

In 6 months, before licensing revenue? Income was £148.4m. Actual profit £48.5m.

So their actual profit margin is around 33%. And that’s with pretty stellar sales volumes. Why do sales volumes matter? Because your base operating costs tend to be relatively fixed, and you only see profit once those costs are met.

Here, we can reasonably infer that GW’s operating costs are around the £100,000,000 mark. Yes, lower sales would mean lesser stock production which would help reduce that figure, but not by a huge percentage.

So if there sales lowered, so would their overall profit margin. Is that daylight robbery? Or is just, y’know, how business and capitalism work in general?


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 13:56:59


Post by: Overread


NobleGunner wrote:
It’s daylight robbery let’s be honest... the fanboys are afraid to admit it. Instead they put lipstick on and bend over for GW




Considering you're waiting on GW customer service and are clearly still buying GW products where do you peg yourself? Fanboy or Masochist?


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 16:00:22


Post by: Grimtuff


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Umm, ok?
Kinda confused what this is meant to be?
Also, metal minis are cheaper to cast than plastic.


Must've missed the part where GW is a small garage company...


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 16:09:45


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


There are lots of companies I prefer to support over GW these days. Most of them are orders of magnitude smaller...yet their prices are also a third of GW’s prices. Sure, I can justify that markup for a really nice squad with a ton of bits once or twice a year, but it hardly seems worth it in comparison to what I could be getting.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 16:28:36


Post by: Pacific


I haven't been on the forum for some time.. I was just thinking I hadn't seen one of these threads since I had returned!

What I will say is that there is a lot less of them.. used to be every week or so at least.

GW is bloody expensive. They are (for the most part) more expensive than their peers, which I think exacerbates the cost. It's possible to play many other games for a great deal less.

What I think has changed (and why I think you get less posts complaining about cost) is that the Games Workshop catalogue has expanded a great deal compared to 5-6 years ago. You're no longer restricted to 40k/WFB, and there is a great deal of fun to be had with the re-launched specialist games (BB, Necromunda etc.), the new boardgames too. So you can get involved in GW's universes without having to spend £300-400, with just a small box of minis being enough in some cases. Even AoS allows smaller forces than were practicable (at least as a playable game) with WHFB.

Of course White Dwarf and the format 40k rules (there have never been more miniatures on the tabletop with many of them big, expensive centre-pieces) push the 'top end' of cost (they are, after all, trying to get you to buy miniatures) - but look away from this, at most of the gaming community, forum blogs and the like, and you'll find much cheaper ways to play and actually realise that most people don't spend inordinate amount of money on this hobby - with some notable exceptions on this forum I am sure!


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 16:46:55


Post by: Doctor-boom


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah. Just Capitalism.

GW are a large company, with lots of rent, taxes, bills and that to pay.

Let’s look at their actual profit margin, shall we? https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019-20-half-year-report.pdf

In 6 months, before licensing revenue? Income was £148.4m. Actual profit £48.5m.

So their actual profit margin is around 33%. And that’s with pretty stellar sales volumes. Why do sales volumes matter? Because your base operating costs tend to be relatively fixed, and you only see profit once those costs are met.

Here, we can reasonably infer that GW’s operating costs are around the £100,000,000 mark. Yes, lower sales would mean lesser stock production which would help reduce that figure, but not by a huge percentage.

So if there sales lowered, so would their overall profit margin. Is that daylight robbery? Or is just, y’know, how business and capitalism work in general?
Thanks!
Finally someone that understand how costing works.
33% profit margin is good and is about what most would say is the target one should have in manufacturing, at least according to the classes I took on the subject.
The molds that gw use to make the plastic figures cost more and more (and they were already 250k each when the rhino was introduced): the more complex the parts are, the more expensive the mold.
Also they invested heavily in injection system to increase production and that's many many millions of dollars of cost that need to be amortized.
Contrary to popular thinking making stuff in high quality plastic is EXPENSIVE!


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 16:53:51


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Yeah! (quietly hides cheap-ass Mantic horde of plastic, WGF army of plastic, Grognard legion of plastic, entire plastic Dropzone combine arms mechanized battalion that cost less than Kharn , Medge plastics that cost a third of their agW equivalent even including shipping, Dropfleet Battlefleet full of plastic cruisers cheaper than space marines) Plastic is expensive! There is absolutely no way GW could sell it for a reasonable price.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 16:57:04


Post by: Overread


I'll also say this, whilst we pay for it, I love that with GW we get:

battletomes/codex
artwork
lore
hobby videos and content most days of the week

All in heavy abundance. Many smaller companies might have some of those elements, but they are often far more marginal in their ability to support them.



I'll also point out that one thing greatly in GW's favour is that their expansions and investments are done without loans. This means there's huge repayments that HAVE to be made each year. Sure they have shareholders to repay ,but those can go up and down. Loans don't so easily go down in repayments and many a firm has come unstuck during economic downturns or tricky times. Not because they can't cover operating costs, but because they can't cover loans and operating costs. A lot of the big highstreet names we hear being killed off are often because they've huge debts over their heads. Those loans let them expand fast and become a highstreet name, but they can be a ticking time bomb.

GW has always reinvested into itself and the hobby really well. Even during the darkest Kirby days GW was still investing into itself (perhaps not as much as they are now and perhaps not always in the right direction). That's something to be grateful for - GW isn't being run like a gravy train into the ground. Nor are the loading the company up with huge debts to provide more for us


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 17:11:40


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


For what it's worth GW has great customer service, good rules support, and a ton of information on the kits on their site.

And they are made in the UK with what I assume are higher labor and wage standards than the majority of toys made in China.

They being said I never touch their $35 special characters. That's what the closet of bits is for!


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 17:11:41


Post by: meatybtz


Doctor-boom wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah. Just Capitalism.

GW are a large company, with lots of rent, taxes, bills and that to pay.

Let’s look at their actual profit margin, shall we? https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019-20-half-year-report.pdf

In 6 months, before licensing revenue? Income was £148.4m. Actual profit £48.5m.

So their actual profit margin is around 33%. And that’s with pretty stellar sales volumes. Why do sales volumes matter? Because your base operating costs tend to be relatively fixed, and you only see profit once those costs are met.

Here, we can reasonably infer that GW’s operating costs are around the £100,000,000 mark. Yes, lower sales would mean lesser stock production which would help reduce that figure, but not by a huge percentage.

So if there sales lowered, so would their overall profit margin. Is that daylight robbery? Or is just, y’know, how business and capitalism work in general?
Thanks!
Finally someone that understand how costing works.
33% profit margin is good and is about what most would say is the target one should have in manufacturing, at least according to the classes I took on the subject.
The molds that gw use to make the plastic figures cost more and more (and they were already 250k each when the rhino was introduced): the more complex the parts are, the more expensive the mold.
Also they invested heavily in injection system to increase production and that's many many millions of dollars of cost that need to be amortized.
Contrary to popular thinking making stuff in high quality plastic is EXPENSIVE!


The above is spot on..

Is GW overpiced? Yes, to an extent, but the market supports it so.... yes.. and no.

However, I love it when people with no experience in business or manufacturing try to call GW too expensive when they don't understand that a single injection plate is 150-300K USD (sometimes even more! depending on complexity and GW products are COMPLEX as injection plastic comes). Engineering the plates is not cheap. It is not just something you throw in software and a computer auto-fits it for you. Vents, plastic flow, etc needs a skilled engineer who knows how it will work or you will blow 250K on a mold that fails to fill out properly. And, no, you cannot just cut additional channels into them like you do with resin to solve mold issues.. you make an ENTIRE NEW ONE.. for another 250K. Each sprue plate is a separate mold. Even to this day I still see most molds are operating in quads (4 plates-sprues) per machine.

On average, a new boxed set with all new models will be a several million dollar investment (labor, sculpting, prototype, layout, plates, additional machines if needed, art design, box design and printing, etc). Where does that money come from? Profit. It does not come from operating costs, it represents "reinvestment". New SoB? All told that army probably cost 5-10M USD to put into production, start to finish over several years.

For smaller companies like Privateer Press, a plastic model box represents a significant reinvestment of their profit and then they will need to sell X kits to break even. None of the plastic kits mentioned by Author are of the same detail level or complexity as the GW models. Yes, that makes an enormous difference in the costs. ENORMOUS. Also they are all non-inhouse injection. They are all using Chinese Companies and thus it costs them a lot less than GW.

Chinese prices are kept low because they love to use Slave Labor. Arbeit Macht Frei is above every entrance. Concentration Camps are used for labor for Apple and other overseas corps. Any time any company does in house and reduces Chineseium is applauded by me. But that is going to come with a premium price. Chinese sourced costs savings have enabled the Western World to hide the severe loss of Buy Power their currencies have suffered.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 17:16:23


Post by: DV8


the_scotsman wrote:
*snip*
The raider is 35 USD. The Leviadon is ONE HUNDRED FIFTEEN.
*snip*


Something you have to account for is not price of materials. It's expected sales. GW can expect to sell many more Raiders than they do Leviadons, so they can afford to drop the price of that item. Volume of sales x per box cost will allow them to easily recoup costs spent on design, production, marketing, etc.

Leviadons not so much, especially considering not every IDK player buys one.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 17:30:41


Post by: Jjohnso11


I also think their models are worth it. Buying the cheaper miniatures from other companies (looking at you Privateer Press) gets you cheaper looking models and barely a smidgen of the support that GW provides. I am pleasantly surprised when another company makes models nearly as well as GW.

PP/Mantic/FFG miniatures assemble poorly, the websites have 5 or fewer pictures of their models, no videos, and hardly any lore for the armies. I'm not even going to talk about regular updates, short stories, novels, a monthly publication...

If I get a bad cast of a model from any of those other companies they want you to return to the retailer and have the seller refund/replace/etc. I received a box from GW with a missing sprue and GW mailed me an entire new box no questions asked.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 18:16:52


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


GW’s prices also allow smaller companies to exist.

Let’s take Mantic as a solid example. Setup by former GW Studio staff. And they make no apologies for undercutting GW’s prices. That was their plan from the get go. Trust me, I’ve had a personal tour of their premises, courtesy of a friend who is their main Resin Caster (one of just two people, if you can believe that!).

Now. There’s bugger all wrong with that plan, like, at all. Again, welcome to Capitalism. And many competitors are often lauded precisely because they’re cheaper than GW.

Now, if GW cut their prices by 25%? Right now, looking at their finances, they’d still be profitable - and they’ve enough meat on their bone to reduce their overheads if they so wished.

Where might that leave the like of Mantic? Their main selling point of being a source of cheaper models compatible with GW games. If it’s a matter of a couple of quid, the overall difference in quality matters far more. Could they have grown and survived in that environment?

What of the tiny wee ‘bloke is his shed’ types? They’re the point of origin for GW and indeed the whole wargames industry.

This post should not be taken as praise or justification of GW’s prices. I can afford them comfortably enough, and have a big enough gaming group to not really care either way. It’s just a statement of fact. GW’s pricing policy is such that it allows competitors a chance to get established.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 18:35:43


Post by: Lorek


Good timing!

As always, it's hard to be upset about pricing on goods that are quite certainly luxury goods.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 19:48:13


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I mean, bread and circuses only work if the ringmasters don’t price out the hoi polloi.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 19:51:21


Post by: Overread


That's a depressingly large list!

That said considering there's Bone-reaper models on there I've feeling that its bigger than GW might have done without Corona. I've a feeling Corona losses are perhaps pushing them to raise some more than they might otherwise have left alone.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 20:05:39


Post by: Deadnight


 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I also think their models are worth it. Buying the cheaper miniatures from other companies (looking at you Privateer Press) gets you cheaper looking models and barely a smidgen of the support that GW provides. I am pleasantly surprised when another company makes models nearly as well as GW.

PP/Mantic/FFG miniatures assemble poorly, the websites have 5 or fewer pictures of their models, no videos, and hardly any lore for the armies. I'm not even going to talk about regular updates, short stories, novels, a monthly publication...

If I get a bad cast of a model from any of those other companies they want you to return to the retailer and have the seller refund/replace/etc. I received a box from GW with a missing sprue and GW mailed me an entire new box no questions asked.


With respect, and this is off topic, but the pp lore actually has (or rather, had - I miss No Quarter - excellent magazine!) all that - is actually pretty deep and quite excellent, especially, if,you look at the RPG material the iron kingdoms have thousands of years of very intricate history. It's a very interesting setting. Plenty of their casters, like Caine or Magnus are extremely well developed with some very engaging story arcs over the time of the game. (On the other hand, there are the likes of sturm & drang who have never had a story!)The lore is a hidden gem, and I've often thought it's a shame that it is seemingly invisible to people.

Now, on topic, in terms of sculpts, I tend to agree with you. While I've never had an issue with pp, they've always fallen into the range of 'mostly adequate to decent, with some very good sculpts'. That said, I've seen very little from them over the last, say, three years or so that has made me go 'wow'. I think the last model from them that I loved was the minicrate totem huntress.it is a shame. I used to love their games. I've had worse experiences of models from other companies. I have little time for mantic, but have no grudges. I've been disappointed with most of my test of honour stuff from warlord.

I've not been disappointed with the quality of gw's models, or support. Especially over the last few years. Only company that has consistently matched model quality and support is Corvus belli and their infinity game. Got an order mucked up one time, let them know, and they basically replaced the whole,thing, and was able to get the original stuff they was mis sent as well.

On topic - gw are pricy. But this is a luxury hobby... so yeah... honestly, it's worth it to me. Love the modelling, love the painting, enjoy the lore etc. I understand the reasons why some stuff costs loads for one model etc., but yeah, since I enjoy it I'm happy to part with my moneys.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 20:49:35


Post by: Genoside07


I have collected GW for a few decades now and no price shocks me... If I can not afford it I don't buy it.
One funny thing is, I randomly collect Heroclix to rebase to use in a Superhero RPG. I can not get myself to buy any single prepainted figure
for more than $15, but will turn around and buy a single GW figure for $30 without blinking an eye.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 23:04:38


Post by: alphaecho


 Overread wrote:
That's a depressingly large list!

That said considering there's Bone-reaper models on there I've feeling that its bigger than GW might have done without Corona. I've a feeling Corona losses are perhaps pushing them to raise some more than they might otherwise have left alone.



Fortunately Mortarion isn't on the list.

Mortarion is being bought from my local brick and mortar store to provide some support when they reopen.


Or maybe the Rogue Trader box. Mortarion can be the present to my preferred online retailer.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 23:46:00


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I do so enjoy how instantly relevant this topic became. Let's see how the White Knights defend this...

 Lorek wrote:
As always, it's hard to be upset about pricing on goods that are quite certainly luxury goods.
No, it's pretty damned easy. I think you know that.



GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 23:55:31


Post by: Azreal13


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I do so enjoy how instantly relevant this topic became. Let's see how the White Knights defend this...


The bingo card is already pretty full

- comparison to a product that's taxed to oblivion
- they're doing it to protect all the other mini producers
- making plastic models is expensive (and anyone else who does it cheaper isn't a Space Marine, or something.)
- reasons!


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/21 23:56:36


Post by: Overread


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I do so enjoy how instantly relevant this topic became. Let's see how the White Knights defend this...

 Lorek wrote:
As always, it's hard to be upset about pricing on goods that are quite certainly luxury goods.
No, it's pretty damned easy. I think you know that.



See I rarely see "defending" or white knighting. I do see people looking for logical justifications and I do see a lot of personal justifications of tolerance of the prices. Tolerance doesn't mean people like it; I don't think anyone enjoys paying more for things. But in the end if you are into the hobby and into Warhammer then you either have to leave or justify the prices. So I think some move on from the rises quicker than others, whilst some find its the tipping point in breaking them back.


I also notice a fair few often say things like. "well that's stopping me buying everything I want" even when in other threads they admit they've piles to rooms full of unbuilt stuff. So sometimes I think it is only curbing spending habits rather than actually impacting their hobby -at least for those fortunate few.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 09:25:29


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Im at that critical mass with my eldar armies that i dont really need anything 'new' so price jumps besides paint etc have minimum impact

yeah i dont gw at the mo but if 9th emerges ill give it a look, and maybe sub out the last of my metal bikes if it looks worthwhile

but i suspect a whole new army wont be happening for me especially with other games nibbling my hobby funds


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 10:54:17


Post by: Kayback


The price changes are random. I know I have to factor in many other things besides simple inflation, we have cost of transport, import duties and the loss of value of our own currency vs world currencies.

But some things have increased 100% in almost 20 years, which IMHO isn't too bad, while others have increased near 1000%, which is ludicrous.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 11:08:40


Post by: tneva82


NobleGunner wrote:
It’s daylight robbery


Prices rising is capital. Now is rate fair or not is another but if prices wouldn't rise whole western economic system would collapse. It DEPENDS on rising everything. More everything. Higher prices, higher wages(yes those have grown as well), more stuff bought, more spent, more people born.

Of course that can't continue forever so sooner or later system is going to collapse and reworked which is going to be very painfull years but until that happens either prices keep rising or that rework happens now rather than in future.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 11:09:21


Post by: Overread


Typically we only see GW's aggregate financial details at the shareholders meeting*. I think Chapterhouse showed more broken down finances - however what can appear random to us might have a strategy behind it depending on how GW breaks up money made from sales behind the scenes. They've got the aggregate data on what does and doesn't actually sell (remember online a rubbish unit might be looked down on, but might actually sell ok in the retail market); they also know how they break up the money and how its distributed through the company. This is before we even touch on things like breaking it down to specific army popularity; internal politics and departments vying for budgets etc....


* and its super odd that we even pay attention to that. Almost every other interest I've got the communities around them never worry or bother with actually looking at the financial reports to shareholders nor even are aware when the meetings are or care about them. Considering most of us do not own GW shares or are only very small holders the amount of interest is quite surprising


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 11:52:38


Post by: Nevelon


 Overread wrote:

* and its super odd that we even pay attention to that. Almost every other interest I've got the communities around them never worry or bother with actually looking at the financial reports to shareholders nor even are aware when the meetings are or care about them. Considering most of us do not own GW shares or are only very small holders the amount of interest is quite surprising


I think a lot of out interest stems from historic lack of information. For a large chunk of the time the only “state of the union” type information was from the shareholder review. Everything else was conjecture and scraps of rumors. But once a year we got solid information straight from the source.

With other companies we don’t need to dig into corporate financials for information; the people running them will just tell us what’s up and what’s happening.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 13:20:35


Post by: Shooter


Doctor-boom wrote:

Finally someone that understand how costing works.
33% profit margin is good and is about what most would say is the target one should have in manufacturing, at least according to the classes I took on the subject.
The molds that gw use to make the plastic figures cost more and more (and they were already 250k each when the rhino was introduced): the more complex the parts are, the more expensive the mold.
Also they invested heavily in injection system to increase production and that's many many millions of dollars of cost that need to be amortized.
Contrary to popular thinking making stuff in high quality plastic is EXPENSIVE!

Can you explain why profit margins need to be so high? I mean a third of that profit went to shareholders (i might be mixing up years here?). And mould costs are obviously counted in costs, they don't come from the profit. the investment in inhection systems that cost millions of dollars is amortized in costs too.

I guess manufacturing needs high margins for reinvestment, but then isnt it normal to borrow to do that? and obviously if you use reserves then then just hits profit in another year, so if a company has ~33% long term, while building/investing, then that amount is after that investment, no?





GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 13:32:41


Post by: dadamowsky


 Shooter wrote:

I guess manufacturing needs high margins for reinvestment, but then isnt it normal to borrow to do that? and obviously if you use reserves then then just hits profit in another year, so if a company has ~33% long term, while building/investing, then that amount is after that investment, no?



I recall one of the reports or GW official stating that they don't borrow money and do their best to invest with their own reserves. I don't remember why, but the reason might be anywhere from a currency fluctuations safety, brexit, interest rate stability or whatever other reason.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 13:54:14


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Nevelon wrote:
 Overread wrote:

* and its super odd that we even pay attention to that. Almost every other interest I've got the communities around them never worry or bother with actually looking at the financial reports to shareholders nor even are aware when the meetings are or care about them. Considering most of us do not own GW shares or are only very small holders the amount of interest is quite surprising


I think a lot of out interest stems from historic lack of information. For a large chunk of the time the only “state of the union” type information was from the shareholder review. Everything else was conjecture and scraps of rumors. But once a year we got solid information straight from the source.

With other companies we don’t need to dig into corporate financials for information; the people running them will just tell us what’s up and what’s happening.


Also, they were a goldmine of insanity with the Kirby preambles.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 20:41:13


Post by: Nevelon


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
 Overread wrote:

* and its super odd that we even pay attention to that. Almost every other interest I've got the communities around them never worry or bother with actually looking at the financial reports to shareholders nor even are aware when the meetings are or care about them. Considering most of us do not own GW shares or are only very small holders the amount of interest is quite surprising


I think a lot of out interest stems from historic lack of information. For a large chunk of the time the only “state of the union” type information was from the shareholder review. Everything else was conjecture and scraps of rumors. But once a year we got solid information straight from the source.

With other companies we don’t need to dig into corporate financials for information; the people running them will just tell us what’s up and what’s happening.


Also, they were a goldmine of insanity with the Kirby preambles.


Worth breaking out the popcorn before reading.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 20:59:16


Post by: Captain Brown


A number of folks in my gaming group noted they made purchases during the lock down with the $10 gift cards being a reward for loyalty (as much of what they ordered has only started to ship now). Now many of the items they had identified for future purchases will be rising in price to make their gift cards only worth covering the increases.

CB


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 21:02:46


Post by: Grimtuff


 Nevelon wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
 Overread wrote:

* and its super odd that we even pay attention to that. Almost every other interest I've got the communities around them never worry or bother with actually looking at the financial reports to shareholders nor even are aware when the meetings are or care about them. Considering most of us do not own GW shares or are only very small holders the amount of interest is quite surprising


I think a lot of out interest stems from historic lack of information. For a large chunk of the time the only “state of the union” type information was from the shareholder review. Everything else was conjecture and scraps of rumors. But once a year we got solid information straight from the source.

With other companies we don’t need to dig into corporate financials for information; the people running them will just tell us what’s up and what’s happening.


Also, they were a goldmine of insanity with the Kirby preambles.


Worth breaking out the popcorn before reading.


I believe such things are otiose.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/22 23:56:22


Post by: Matt Swain


Well, I see that corporate apologists, people who think big business can do no wrong because the free market is perfect in every way, are at it again with their talk of "economic reality" and how people's views and beliefs don't matter in the face of economic reality and the Almighty invisible hand of the free market.

Well, here's some other realities.

A lot of people have invested a lot of time, effort and money into GW, gw in turn takes this as an invitation to raise their prices and raise their prices. even in economic downturns and
when inflation is at a low rate.

People used to not have a lot of choice in how to respond. Either pay and pay and pay and pay or be driven out of something you enjoy by greed.

Now they do have choices, assuming they dont care about official tournaments and like to play for fun. Proxies, recasts and 3d prints.

Those are part of reality now, no matter how loud the corporate apologists squeal "BUTDUHLAWSEZ!" or "GWINTELLECTUALPROPERTY!"

Some people just don't feel like being bled dry or pushed out of a hobby they like, now they have choices.

GW has a choice. It can try flattening the curve on its hikes or see more and more people coming in with printed, proxy or recast armies, thereby forcing it to raise prices to keep up with lowering sales, drive more people away, raise prices, lose more sales, etc until it goes broke or sees the light and starts lowering prices to increase sales.

It's very likely if gw reversed it's price policies and lowered them it would result in more people coming back after being driven away, more people starting the hobby and more people buying more stuff.

And maybe make cheaper minis.Would a lot of gamers mind if there were boxed sets of basic troops that were one or two piece casts and sold a lot cheaper, along with some more expensive miultipiece sets to add a little character to an army while keeping it affordable?

You could have most troops in squad more or less identical, with maybe an officer and heavy/special weapons that were more individual.

Yes super characters could still be overpriced kits like guilleman, thrakka, abbadon, etc. People could get those if they wanted.

I believe gw would do fine with this thru lowered costs and increased sales. As to plastic costs, maybe encourage gamers to save up and mail in empty sprues so gw could recycle them, collect them at gw stores to ship back to gw.

But obviously gw won't do this until it's forced to, So hopefully gw will be forced to change policies by more people using alternatives to gw figures.

And if GW goes under? Well, someone else may buy the rights and start making games and minis in a way more respectful to gamers and less based on "how hard can we the game nerds?".





GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 04:51:08


Post by: amrogers3


Does anyone know what it costs for GW to cast a average kit?

There are a lot of people guessing on here but no one knows for sure. I have no idea, I assume after the mold is made, they would get several hundred casts from it?

I would then say it costs what, maybe a couple dollars per kit? Couple more for transportation? Again, I have no idea, just guessing here. 85-90% profit per kit? plastic is cheap. Probably one of the lowest margins in existence for a company and their cost to produce keeps getting lower as they become more efficient at producing plastic models. Bottom line, what it cost to produce minis now is much less than it was 20 years ago, yet prices keep propelling up.

Probably most of their operating budget is going into social media and promoting GW in different mediums. They are supporting many more conventions now and are promoting all over the webs and in countries they are trying to sell in. Take Japan for example.

Anyone notice the price increases are occurring more often? Take the recent news with the increase in prices on some kits.

What other companies out there have you heard of doing a price increase during these of all times? I can't name one. World economy is gak. U.S. is looking at a loss of over 40M jobs as of yesterday. GW didn't even wait until the pandemic was over to show their greed.



GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 06:43:08


Post by: Grimtuff


It's pennies on the pound. The production costs of minis, which includes everything from design, distribution, moulding etc. is about 15% of their annual revenue. It's all in their annual reports.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 08:32:05


Post by: Elbows


I've not bought a new MSRP priced kit from GW in....years. The only things I've picked up were a couple of HH boxes on discount during eBay sales, and I'll buy some parted out kits from the occasional Christmas Bundles or starter boxes - and even those were 18 months ago at the earliest.

I play a bunch of games, all of which are less than half the cost of typical GW fare. My entire, rather large, Eldar army is built from eBay rescues and auctions, etc.

What is unfortunate though, is that GW has lost the youth market comprehensively. My 13 year old nephew wants to get into 40K. I've "sold" him a few squads of old Space Marines I had laying around ($5 for five guys, etc.). Basically I had set up a little "shop" for him to spend some of his money, etc. You can imagine his disappointment when we visited the local GW and nothing under $35-45 was available in the entire shop for him to purchase/use. A $60 Primaris squad? Forget about it.

I can, of course, source some stuff at a slight discount on eBay for him - but there's zero way for him to actively buy and build a 40K army as a young teenager. Short of the occasional large birthday or Christmas gift, etc. I know it's not a large spending market (which is probably 50% older "Whales", and 50% "Young, post-college IT workers"...but they're killing the future gamers who might have bought into the game like we did when I was in high school.

I've had to more or less talk him out of 40K, an IP that he likes because of the visuals and some old codices I had laying around that I let him have/read for fun. While I recognize that adults can afford GW products if they so desire, the reality is that the game is obnoxiously expensive for anyone not in that situation. I can afford to buy GW stuff but I elect not to because of the prices. I don't find their value is justified in the price. I get more use/enjoyment out of many other companies miniatures for a variety of other games...and thus spend my money there now.

I probably spend $200-400 a month on random hobby stuff, models, etc. None of that goes to GW any longer.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 11:16:01


Post by: Deadnight


 Elbows wrote:

I play a bunch of games, all of which are less than half the cost of typical GW fare. My entire, rather large, Eldar army is built from eBay rescues and auctions, etc.


A lot of it depends on how you approach it. Ebay -This is an approach that can work. I'm no stranger to ebay - for me, it's for old metal scouts (I hate the plastics) and oop kasrkin. Regarding the costs of games - again, I played Warmachine for years and can attest the prices there are... quite high. Currently, a mate of mine who still plays the competitive scene was telling me a top level infernal army can cost nearly a grande (bear in mind, uk here...) which is ridiculous.

I think gw have done a few in roads into the price issue - better value starter sets, smaller scale games like kill team, warcry or necromunda. And be played on a far lower budget.

 Elbows wrote:

What is unfortunate though, is that GW has lost the youth market comprehensively. My 13 year old nephew wants to get into 40K. I've "sold" him a few squads of old Space Marines I had laying around ($5 for five guys, etc.). Basically I had set up a little "shop" for him to spend some of his money, etc. You can imagine his disappointment when we visited the local GW and nothing under $35-45 was available in the entire shop for him to purchase/use. A $60 Primaris squad? Forget about it.

I can, of course, source some stuff at a slight discount on eBay for him - but there's zero way for him to actively buy and build a 40K army as a young teenager. Short of the occasional large birthday or Christmas gift, etc. I know it's not a large spending market (which is probably 50% older "Whales", and 50% "Young, post-college IT workers"...but they're killing the future gamers who might have bought into the game like we did when I was in high school.


With respect, I disagree.

don't see this as too far out of order. Theyre not killing any future gamers. It's just how things are.

You are talking about a thirteen year old kid. I don't think this was ever a market gw 'had'. I don't think it actually really exists. I've been buying and painting gw stuff since third ed and even then, the idea of a thirteen year old being able to afford a full army on their own purchasing power wasn't a thing. Buying a metal blister with your pocket money - ok, maybe, but even back then this was a stretch. I remember being thirteen, and my weekly pocket money budget didn't go beyond a few sweets and maybe a chippy on my school lunch break (once a week, mind!), never mind anything even a little bit fancy like computer games, clothes or actually important things like a push bike (country boy here... no bike, no getting anywhere). 40k, like most things for me at that age was always an unobtainable dream under my own steam until I was older. Aside from birthdays and Xmas, most kids here that didn't come from a 'quality' background got 2 cash injections growing up - first communion and confirmation. And if they were lucky, a memento when they turn twelve. With respwct, my upbringing was pretty normal and I can see my story being pretty similar to most folks. Any cool stuff we got at that age was presents from mom and dad for birthdays and Xmas - with respect, expecting a thirteen year old to be able to buy a 40k army, or to purchase anything on that price scale so easily speaks of privilege. For most people, it's only when you are a late teenager and get a part time job and have your first disposable income that you can consider properly getting into things.

 Elbows wrote:

I've had to more or less talk him out of 40K, an IP that he likes because of the visuals and some old codices I had laying around that I let him have/read for fun. While I recognize that adults can afford GW products if they so desire, the reality is that the game is obnoxiously expensive for anyone not in that situation. I can afford to buy GW stuff but I elect not to because of the prices. I don't find their value is justified in the price. I get more use/enjoyment out of many other companies miniatures for a variety of other games...and thus spend my money there now.


I can respect that you don't kind value in gw's prices - it's totally fair. There's a lot of this game/hobby where I simply refuse to chase the dragon (chasing the ever shifting competitive scene etc) and focus on the models I like, prefer smaller games or the specialist games etc. For me, it's been the opposite - I've really enjoyed a lot of gw's more recent releases, and love primaris, but I don't necessarily see my approach as 'right' or 'better'. They're simply making what I am happy to buy into.

That said, it's a shame you talked your nephew out of 40k. I liked your approach where you supported him with bits and pieces - I think it's really cool and on point. I'd say to folks to do what you do, and keep doing that instead until he's a bit older, not that it's my place to give advice here (I'm pretty sure it's not being asked). At that age, kids do need our help and guidance more than they need loads of money. If that was my parents, and I was that age they'd just tell me 'when you're older, if you're still into it, you can get it yourself'.



GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 14:59:34


Post by: Tamereth


GW have announced price rises and an edition change in one week. All at a time when the world is crashing into the largest recession for 100 years when huge numbers of people are out of work.

They really must think a small number of "whale" customers are going to carry them.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 15:03:21


Post by: Overread


 Tamereth wrote:
GW have announced price rises and an edition change in one week. All at a time when the world is crashing into the largest recession for 100 years when huge numbers of people are out of work.

They really must think a small number of "whale" customers are going to carry them.


GW has already invested in all the releases for the next year - many are already sitting there with millions invested into moulds. GW can't NOT release 9th edition. They can't just put it on hold. Even if it sells less they can't just wait it out.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 16:57:14


Post by: Elbows


Deadknight,

With respect - I disagree with your disagreement, lol. I grew up buying GW stuff as a teenager. This was in the 90's when they had blisters and even then boxed sets were reasonable. Most importantly, having blisters meant I could spend my $15-20 on a couple of blisters and have something to build and paint. My 40K "army" wasn't huge, but it was playable in 2nd edition. Having been roommates with a GW store manager later in college, I can tell you there is a large market of young kids who were constantly in the stores. Were they a huge source of revenue? No, probably not. But they were the enthusiasm and excitement which kept the store abuzz.

Regarding dissuading my nephew from 40K, that's because I do find their prices borderline offensive, and I know how teenagers' minds work. I will not be encouraging him to spend all of his earthly possessions to buy a box or two of Space Marines. He can, of course, if he wants, but I won't be part of it - not with GW's current prices.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 17:04:03


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Elbows, how would he feel about using unofficial minis? Wargames Atlantic make passable IG minis, Shieldwolf makes close-enough Sisters, etc.. Reaper has a few Bones plastic knights that look suspiciously like Space Marines in need of guns and backpacks. Would he be interested in any of that?


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 17:54:38


Post by: Deadnight


 Elbows wrote:
Deadknight,

With respect - I disagree with your disagreement, lol.


I disagree with your disagreement of of my disagreement!

But seriousoh, this is Fair - we both are coming from different perspectives. For what it's worth, I do not wish to devalue your POV.

 Elbows wrote:
Deadknight,
I grew up buying GW stuff as a teenager. This was in the 90's when they had blisters and even then boxed sets were reasonable. Most importantly, having blisters meant I could spend my $15-20 on a couple of blisters and have something to build and paint. My 40K "army" wasn't huge, but it was playable in 2nd edition. Having been roommates with a GW store manager later in college, I can tell you there is a large market of young kids who were constantly in the stores. Were they a huge source of revenue? No, probably not. But they were the enthusiasm and excitement which kept the store abuzz.


Here's the thing though. That's the mid nineties. That's twenty five years ago. That's a long time ago, and frankly, a different time. Lots of things were different. I was buying a bit later than you - in the very early noughties (first stuff was around the time of the eye of terror campaign, or thereabouts).

That said, I wasnt wrong in what I said. the equivelant of your $15 or $20 dollars back then, twenty five years ago is how much now? Back home in Ireland or the uk, that's a not insignificant chunk of cash back then, especially for a thirteen year old. Like I said, at that age, I didn't have that kind of money 'casually'. And I'm not unique in that.

Thing is, your army back then wasn't huge. You can still buy a 'not huge' army now, and it's just as playable- just play smaller games. Gw have enough approaches to the game or have smaller versions of the game that can also account for this too. I love necromunda and warcry for that very reason (I blame it on Infinity, as I quite enjoy skirmish games).

I fully appreciate lots of kids in a gw store. Nothing much has changed between then and now. You still get the jokes of gw crèche centres. Last time I was through in Glasgow, I had to step over quite a few of the ankle biters. It's not a bad thing - it's good to see the enthusiasm and excitement, as you put it. Thing is, that market of kids exists, but it's paid for by mom and dad. They're not priced out. Personally, I see it as a great platform for father/son or cool uncle/nephew bonding to share the hobby.

Now whether you feel the value is there in the sets is a totally different matter. I can appreciate you don't - I've been there myself with gw stuff.

 Elbows wrote:
Deadknight,
Regarding dissuading my nephew from 40K, that's because I do find their prices borderline offensive, and I know how teenagers' minds work. I will not be encouraging him to spend all of his earthly possessions to buy a box or two of Space Marines. He can, of course, if he wants, but I won't be part of it - not with GW's current prices.


This is fair - I respect your position on this.

Cheers!


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 18:02:39


Post by: alphaecho


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Elbows, how would he feel about using unofficial minis? Wargames Atlantic make passable IG minis, Shieldwolf makes close-enough Sisters, etc.. Reaper has a few Bones plastic knights that look suspiciously like Space Marines in need of guns and backpacks. Would he be interested in any of that?


I can second the recommend for Wargames Atlantic.

70GBP for 72 models.




From the two Death Fields sets so far, you can push together Steel legion or Vostroyan proxies. Mix and match their WWI Germans with Les Grognards will give you Death Korps of Krieg.


Even better, especially for Les Grognards, there are 6 x 24 sets of heads per box. I'm partially financing my purchase of the upcoming Space Brits by flogging off conversion bits.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 18:32:37


Post by: Elbows


My nephew will do as he pleases, I simply am not coaching or guiding him into 40K. He painted a handful of tactical marines and now wants to buy a Knight. He doesn't yet actually play the game, so I suggested he wait until he does so (we've only played "Kiddiehammer" in the past, a simplified version I wrote for him when he was maybe 10).

He's been saving all of his birthday money, etc...and I'd rather not see him waste it on a $140+ model...but it's his money. He likes 40K aesthetics, but I have considered suggesting something like Mantic's Warpath(?) etc.

Since he doesn't actually play the game, I've also considered finding a suitably cool VOTOMS or Gundam style kit, etc. We'll see.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 18:45:37


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


How does he feel about the 15mm Dreamforge Leviathan? Is that close enough in aesthetics?


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 18:53:11


Post by: Elbows


I've suggested that to him, so we'll see. Shame Dreamforge is more or less done with the plastics, he could have scooped up a 28mm Leviathan during their sale six months back.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 20:52:03


Post by: Irkjoe


I am thankful for the price raise because at least I don't live in Australia.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 21:43:14


Post by: Tamereth


 Overread wrote:
 Tamereth wrote:
GW have announced price rises and an edition change in one week. All at a time when the world is crashing into the largest recession for 100 years when huge numbers of people are out of work.

They really must think a small number of "whale" customers are going to carry them.


GW has already invested in all the releases for the next year - many are already sitting there with millions invested into moulds. GW can't NOT release 9th edition. They can't just put it on hold. Even if it sells less they can't just wait it out.


But did we need a new edition yet anyway. Changing rule sets every three years is ridiculous.

And how do you explain away the price rise of 400+ items this week. Given the situation how do they think their customer base is going to react to that.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 22:15:57


Post by: Overread


 Tamereth wrote:


And how do you explain away the price rise of 400+ items this week. Given the situation how do they think their customer base is going to react to that.


Honestly from what I can see the customerbase online has reacted exactly the same way its reacted before. It's actually basically normal reactions.

I've not seen anyone making big sudden shifts in their attitude on the whole. Those who are on the out were those generally on the out before the price rise - those on the in are still on the in if perhaps complaining that they can't collect 10 armies and are cutting down or planning on cutting down to a few. It's the same thing we've seen with other price rise discussions.

Now the current climate might create more pressure, but it will be hard to tell from sales alone who has reduced because of the price rise and who is reducing simply because of the current financial climate irrespective of prices rises.

It's also important to note that these rises dn't really move the costs of an army very far from what they were before. Sure things have gone up, but we are talking small numbers (comparatively speaking).



As a comparison I've watched camera gear that I've desired creep up from prices like £3K to £6K and more for a single lens. Those are BIG shifts in value that make a huge impact on who can and cannot afford. It's not just a small price rise, its a full shift several bands higher for the vast majority.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 22:40:12


Post by: Strombones


I caught wind of this news from a group text this morning, so popped over to GW to look at pricing. It would be $180 for two tactical squads and two rhinos. Plus a codex and an HQ
just to get started.

That's just unfathomable to me. I have entire armies and terrain for huge convention games I run that cost less than that altogether.


Looking back, I really wonder how I ever afforded it in the first place.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 23:10:15


Post by: DarkBlack


What GW charge for their products is up to them. People buy everything they put out, even with what I think is a ridiculous price for miniatures. I works and they make money.
Even though you own something that they made and invested emotionally in their product, it is still their IP to do with as they please. They do not produce essential items, so have no obligation to make it affordable.

If you don't like how they do business then don't support them. I don't play GW games anymore and there is still more hobby and games than I have time for.

That said, the way GW treat their games has more to do with why I stopped than their prices.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/23 23:21:47


Post by: Mr Morden


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I mean, bread and circuses only work if the ringmasters don’t price out the hoi polloi.


Bread and Circuses were free for the Plebs - that was the point


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/27 23:41:44


Post by: Albertorius


 meatybtz wrote:
However, I love it when people with no experience in business or manufacturing try to call GW too expensive when they don't understand that a single injection plate is 150-300K USD (sometimes even more! depending on complexity and GW products are COMPLEX as injection plastic comes). Engineering the plates is not cheap. It is not just something you throw in software and a computer auto-fits it for you. Vents, plastic flow, etc needs a skilled engineer who knows how it will work or you will blow 250K on a mold that fails to fill out properly. And, no, you cannot just cut additional channels into them like you do with resin to solve mold issues.. you make an ENTIRE NEW ONE.. for another 250K. Each sprue plate is a separate mold. Even to this day I still see most molds are operating in quads (4 plates-sprues) per machine.

The sources I have (non-GW miniature companies and KS) put current prices for steel inyection moulds at a much, much, muuuuch lower mark than that. You can get a small mould for as little as $2k-$5k, and the "regular size" sprues would need mould that might cost up to $25k... which means that you're about one order of magnitude too high on your estimates. And that's outsourcing the manufacturing, something GW doesn't need to do.

From what sources are you getting that 150-300k estimates?


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 00:14:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Albertorius wrote:
From what sources are you getting that 150-300k estimates?
If I had to guess, the early 2000's?


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 07:14:33


Post by: Pacific


I had read that it was in the region of £10-20k for injection moulds (although I'm sure it is more complicated than that and there are lots of factors).

If it was that expensive you wouldn't have the absolutely massive range of plastic kits for model kit building, there is no way the market would be able to support something like a 1:72 scale of something like the kit in spoilers below.

Spoiler:


Or, in the miniature world, you imagine relatively tiny companies like Wargames Factory or some of the other ones that crop up in N&R having anything like the resources to make even a single sprue and hope to make any money from it.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 08:43:52


Post by: Crispy78


https://rexplastics.com/plastic-injection-molds/how-much-do-plastic-injection-molds-cost

There's a good amount of info here.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 17:44:48


Post by: stratigo



boyd wrote:
It's like that commencement speech - Always Wear Sunscreen. Prices will rise and you will look back and remember that when you were young, prices were fair.

Peg the price to another hobby/ vice - cigarettes were $2.50 when I was in HS. Now that same brand/pack is about $9.00 and change. Heck looking back just 10 years ago, my 2 BR/2BA flat was $825/ month. The same unit is listing for $1,485/ month now. I wouldn't say it's inflation, just the purchasing power parity you learned about in Econ 101.


Cigarettes are a poison that get taxed higher because eventually the rest of us are gonna have to pay for your habit of slowly killing yourself (yes, even in America with private insurance, the rest of us end up helping pay your bills provided you can afford them). Cigarettes have a social cost that increased taxes help reflect. Their raise in cost is a reflection in realizing just how expensive cigarettes are for the economy. And, like, not even nearly as much as their overall cost. Governments have long struggled to force companies to factor in the cost of their externalities and companies spend a lot of money lobbying governments to not force them to pay those costs.

Models, uh, aren't the same comparison.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


So if there sales lowered, so would their overall profit margin. Is that daylight robbery? Or is just, y’know, how business and capitalism work in general?


I mean, the answer is yes to both.

Companies will charge what they can get away with, and that's pretty much never to the benefit of the consumer.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
For what it's worth GW has great customer service, good rules support, and a ton of information on the kits on their site.

And they are made in the UK with what I assume are higher labor and wage standards than the majority of toys made in China.

They being said I never touch their $35 special characters. That's what the closet of bits is for!


GW is probably in trouble when the chinese casting factories figure out how to make models of a quality remotely near them.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I also think their models are worth it. Buying the cheaper miniatures from other companies (looking at you Privateer Press) gets you cheaper looking models and barely a smidgen of the support that GW provides. I am pleasantly surprised when another company makes models nearly as well as GW.

PP/Mantic/FFG miniatures assemble poorly, the websites have 5 or fewer pictures of their models, no videos, and hardly any lore for the armies. I'm not even going to talk about regular updates, short stories, novels, a monthly publication...

If I get a bad cast of a model from any of those other companies they want you to return to the retailer and have the seller refund/replace/etc. I received a box from GW with a missing sprue and GW mailed me an entire new box no questions asked.


I haven't found the price and quality to be particularly related. GW produces a lot of very pretty models, and some duds, but, uh, doesn't really price them differently.

 Lorek wrote:
Good timing!

As always, it's hard to be upset about pricing on goods that are quite certainly luxury goods.


Only if you assume the affluent are the only ones worthy of luxury.
 Overread wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I do so enjoy how instantly relevant this topic became. Let's see how the White Knights defend this...
 Lorek wrote:
As always, it's hard to be upset about pricing on goods that are quite certainly luxury goods.
No, it's pretty damned easy. I think you know that.



See I rarely see "defending" or white knighting. I do see people looking for logical justifications and I do see a lot of personal justifications of tolerance of the prices. Tolerance doesn't mean people like it; I don't think anyone enjoys paying more for things. But in the end if you are into the hobby and into Warhammer then you either have to leave or justify the prices. So I think some move on from the rises quicker than others, whilst some find its the tipping point in breaking them back.


I also notice a fair few often say things like. "well that's stopping me buying everything I want" even when in other threads they admit they've piles to rooms full of unbuilt stuff. So sometimes I think it is only curbing spending habits rather than actually impacting their hobby -at least for those fortunate few.


A lot of justifications are "It's just capitalism and thus is good" as if capitalism justifies anything and everything.

 Shooter wrote:
Doctor-boom wrote:

Finally someone that understand how costing works.
33% profit margin is good and is about what most would say is the target one should have in manufacturing, at least according to the classes I took on the subject.
The molds that gw use to make the plastic figures cost more and more (and they were already 250k each when the rhino was introduced): the more complex the parts are, the more expensive the mold.
Also they invested heavily in injection system to increase production and that's many many millions of dollars of cost that need to be amortized.
Contrary to popular thinking making stuff in high quality plastic is EXPENSIVE!

Can you explain why profit margins need to be so high? I mean a third of that profit went to shareholders (i might be mixing up years here?). And mould costs are obviously counted in costs, they don't come from the profit. the investment in inhection systems that cost millions of dollars is amortized in costs too.

I guess manufacturing needs high margins for reinvestment, but then isnt it normal to borrow to do that? and obviously if you use reserves then then just hits profit in another year, so if a company has ~33% long term, while building/investing, then that amount is after that investment, no?





Ultimately companies exist for the benefit of shareholders. They are the only people that matter. All decisions are made for their profit and peace of mind, which is very often not the same thing. Every cent of profit not spent on dividends has to be defended as garnering more profit at a later date.
 Tamereth wrote:
GW have announced price rises and an edition change in one week. All at a time when the world is crashing into the largest recession for 100 years when huge numbers of people are out of work.

They really must think a small number of "whale" customers are going to carry them.


Falling profits have often led to price raising, even when counter productive.

Note that THESE price rises are more likely to do with brexit than they are with CV, but when the economic effects of CV are better understood, expect more prices rising. If the assumption is that the average consumer isn't able to afford models because of economic instability, then there's little reason to have anything but prices targeting the fattest whales. With an issue being, of course, that GW is so very reticent to LOWER prices. A glorious, brief, period where the effective cost of GW miniatures dropped in bundles and deals is being returned to the normalcy of GW price structures.
 DarkBlack wrote:
What GW charge for their products is up to them. People buy everything they put out, even with what I think is a ridiculous price for miniatures. I works and they make money.
Even though you own something that they made and invested emotionally in their product, it is still their IP to do with as they please. They do not produce essential items, so have no obligation to make it affordable.

If you don't like how they do business then don't support them. I don't play GW games anymore and there is still more hobby and games than I have time for.

That said, the way GW treat their games has more to do with why I stopped than their prices.


I do not think it is a coincidence that GW's profits being the best they had ever been coincided with multiple ways to save money on their products.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 20:24:05


Post by: Cruentus


Crispy78 wrote:
https://rexplastics.com/plastic-injection-molds/how-much-do-plastic-injection-molds-cost

There's a good amount of info here.


I had seen that site before, but forgot about it. Thanks for the link. From the site:

"A plastic injection mold costs between $1,000 and $80,000. The mold’s size, complexity, material, and type affect its price. However, a typical mold costs $12,000."

"At least to some degree, asking what plastic injection molds cost is a lot like asking, “How much is a car?” Will your mold be a Pinto or a Porsche? And don’t forget that the price of a mold is just the beginning. To determine overall plastic injection molding costs for any project, you have to consider raw material, operation, and repair costs later down the road too."

And we know what kind of cars GW likes!

I also seem to remember that there were steel molds for plastic injection, which were talked about 10-20 years ago, as being very expensive, but lasting forever. Then I seem to remember talk about aluminum or some other type of metal, that were cheaper for molds, but wore out.

It wouldn't surprise me if GW uses the cheapest molds possible, hence the small production runs, and then decides whether to re-cut the mold or re-run the models based upon some opaque metric.

Of course, its all conjecture on my part. Because otherwise, they could just roll out old steel molds and make anything they're ever had in inventory (in plastic). It would also perhaps explain the small batch character models in plastic. No way you're running those out of a steel mold, I would think.



GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 21:08:02


Post by: Elbows


Even in this thread, we have the usual massive disinformation by people who are desperate to defend the cost of a product.

Plastic injection molds have never been anywhere near the $250K mark. This is blatant lying to try to support an argument.

GW has likely never lost money on a mold since...maybe Dread Fleet - which was widely avoided and put a huge dent in GW's enthusiasm for specialist games for quite some time. In the past 10-15 years? No money lost unless they intentionally did that by releasing a super tiny run of a special character (which is their choice and their right).

Plastic molds are expensive and it's a serious financial consideration for SMALL companies. A company of GW's size doesn't bat an eye over mold prices. That's an argument from the late 90's when GW was smaller and plastic sprues for stuff like gaming miniatures were more or less in their infancy. There is a reason that mom and pop shops, or people who sell games/miniatures as a hobby do not have plastic sprue kits. The cost is actually higher for renting the workforce to produce the materials and the shipping costs of having it delivered to your market, etc. The sprue cost is essentially a non-factor for a company of GW's size.



GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 21:19:21


Post by: Azreal13


One only has to look at cost of sales listed on the financial reports, understand that includes not only machining of HIPS molds but every other thing that they spend money on to take a product from inception to being physically sat in a box ready for sale, including design, raw materials, packaging etc to make a reasonable assumption as to how small a part of their expenditure making molds must be.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 22:43:51


Post by: Kanluwen


The 250k mark is a bit misleading--but it likely is factoring in that GW owns their own machines. There is no "renting the workforce" or anything of that nature--outside of terrain kits and Endless Spells(and purportedly they're tooling things up to be able to do those too).


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 22:59:22


Post by: Azreal13


That doesn't really make sense, a business doesn't invest in capital purchases unless they're going to make money, not cost more.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 23:16:38


Post by: Overread


 Azreal13 wrote:
That doesn't really make sense, a business doesn't invest in capital purchases unless they're going to make money, not cost more.


Unless that investment might result in:

1) A stronger position against future cost inflation from using an external company.

2) A more stable company because now a core component of production is in-house rather than external. This means you're not worrying about other demands on outside firms; concerned about having to re-negotiate deals when the contracts come up, knowing full well that the outside firm is essential (they have a stronger leg to stand on).

3) A higher quality of product because a key part is now internal and thus specialist can be sought/trained exactly for the role(s) required and is working purely for GW's interests without other projects. Rather than using external specialists which might have a broader range of skills, but lack specialist understanding for the company's requirements. Plus any external firm might well have time constraints, with fast increasing costs if a mould prove challenging and starts to impact on their other projects/clients.

4) Stable and known production quality of machines. Even if GW loses key staff; they at least have a known quality with their machines. External firms could be a problem if GW had to use different companies at different times and could result in variation in quality of production of moulds from those different firms. Even if some might be superior to what GW can achieve in-house - sometimes having a known value in-house is better than variable external.


There are aspects which likely might cost GW more. Bringing it in house means paying staff wages related to mould casting directly out of their own pocket, as opposed to staff who are hired by a firm which produces GW products as only one of many. With the latter the costs are shared over multiple firms; with the former its only GW hiring them and using them (unless they hire out the machines as well during periods when GW isn't making new moulds). Of course GW might have those staff trained in other processes or might even have sufficient mould casting requirements that warrants full time single task dedicated employees.


Of course one would expect that bringing it in-house would result in a financial gain, however when you consider that GW only expands with profits and not loans, they can actually afford to invest in expansions which might yield less return on investment, but could yield higher product qualities or simply be pet-projects/ideas of management. Yes the latter would be a disaster if those projects resulted in long term debilitating running costs or if they invest in so many that they burn their profits away to nothing.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 23:24:48


Post by: Azreal13


Of course one would expect that bringing it in-house would result in a financial gain


Yes, so, like I said, to make money.

If someone else can do the thing cheaper than you can, you pay them do it and reap the same advantages, should those advantages be "non financial" (not that that's really a thing.)


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 23:53:27


Post by: Ghaz


 Overread wrote:
2) A more stable company because now a core component of production is in-house rather than external. This means you're not worrying about other demands on outside firms; concerned about having to re-negotiate deals when the contracts come up, knowing full well that the outside firm is essential (they have a stronger leg to stand on).

That would have prevented the delay GW had with the Sylvaneth release last year or am I misremembering something?


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/28 23:59:21


Post by: Overread


 Ghaz wrote:
 Overread wrote:
2) A more stable company because now a core component of production is in-house rather than external. This means you're not worrying about other demands on outside firms; concerned about having to re-negotiate deals when the contracts come up, knowing full well that the outside firm is essential (they have a stronger leg to stand on).

That would have prevented the delay GW had with the Sylvaneth release last year or am I misremembering something?


It might have yes. Because GW gets their endless spells and terrain from overseas as well as hardback printing and I believe all their cardstock (which I assume would include both things like warscroll cards and also boxes to put models into). I believe I recall reading that GW were looking at getting some card printing machines of their own to bring that in-house as well; a surprising move considering that right now a lot of printing is done overseas because its cheaper and its unlikely GW could beat the quality (or that the current quality is lacking).

That said the bonus for them is reducing their reliance on firms half a world away and long shipping times. Letting them react quicker to needs; to have quality control in-house; to not be reliant on international trade agreements which can change or cause problems etc... Again we're looking at benefits where cost is only one aspect. Again because GW would pay for this out of profits, whilst it is money they could invest elsewhere, it also means that they don't pay for it long term as they would with a loan or investor. So if it all turned out a disaster they aren't left paying for it for decades to come.

It's the kind of big costs ideally spent during affluent times. Of course one hopes that GW also puts into savings and investments of its own to give themselves some safety nets for the future as well. It would be a huge mistake to invest all their profits into expansion and pet projects and securing fancy machines- esp since all expansion options mean more staff and that means increasing their actual running costs. So I guess that is one trap - raising their operating costs through expansion of bringing more aspects in-house.




**Edit - I'm not actually sure why GW gets terrain and spells cast overseas. I can only assume its because they hit their production capacity - in theory the new factory - brought online and up to full speed (assuming no more power shortage at their HQ and no more covid restrictions/slowdown) should let them make up for that. In theory meaning that spells and terrain should be back in house again.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 00:27:35


Post by: Firstwetakedc


If GW's models were of the same quality as average plastic model kits, and were priced accordingly, they would still look fine, be much cheaper, and bring in a huge customer base, I think. It would almost get too popular.

The problem with Ebay is that if everyone starts going there, then the supply will dry up. Ebay is actually one of the factors that made it possible for me to get back in to playing 40k. Others include Guardsmen from Bolt Action, Guardswomen from Victoria Miniatures (though that might not be any cheaper), SIsters and a Priest from Fox Box, another Priest and two Death Cult Assassins from Reaper Bones, and, last but not least, numerous Papercraft vehicles.

(I made the mistake of using fairly heavy paper, figuring that the models ought to have some weight to them, but actually they're harder to fold, and didn't come out so well. I might re-do some of them.)

I know that this next opinion might be uncommon, but it dawned on me when I was assembling the new GW Sisters and Arco-Flagellants that I found the process very tedious. It's much easier to just glue the metal figure into the base, and then put on the plastic arm(s) equipped the way you want.

I also don't like the designs of some of the new stuff. I think that the old Exorcist was silly, and the new one is Rigoddamndiculous. I use the Forge World-style (not actually bought from FW) that actually look military. I like the old Immolators (not the original), but the new ones look goofy. The new Rhinos are nifty, however.

GW really bothers me. Maybe they'll be forced back to their senses by overseas competition and/or third-party proxies, worries about a next generation of players, etc.

They definitely need to commit to their board games. Those are a fine way in, and the minis are usable in 40k.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 03:46:49


Post by: Bdrone


ive been annoyed with GW pricing for years, and the climbing of price has resulted in all of my friends i know who had any interest in GW walking away.

the local gaming groups dropped off the mark, and im siting here with plenty in mini's i never got to play with, but looking at what Gw makes lately, along with the pricing, it doesn't fit my general mentality.

The sisters stuff is a solid example- FirstwetakedC Im in agreement with the new sisters vehicles, but also im tired of Gw's new focus on "dynamic" modeling for characters as well.

with sisters the closest thing to what i wanted was something akin to the imagifier's posture. i wanted serenity in war, not all the extra bobbles, and the cost for the new sisters sealed the deal of me not caring to go to plastic with what i had if i could find a match.

At this point id much rather go to alternative, but the closest place i could still theoretically find a game at is a GW store a town over. even then id still rather buy Wargames atlantic mini's instead when i get an IG related Idea over GW (the raumjager look really good to me), from both an aesthetics level and a cost level.

currently im trying to figure out if alternatives exist for imperial knights, just to see what i could compare that range to outside of GW. i heard some scale mech models might?


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 07:44:24


Post by: Kayback


 Firstwetakedc wrote:



I know that this next opinion might be uncommon, but it dawned on me when I was assembling the new GW Sisters and Arco-Flagellants that I found the process very tedious. It's much easier to just glue the metal figure into the base, and then put on the plastic arm(s) equipped the way you want.

The multi part plastics are way easier to paint properly though. Maybe I'm just not dexterous enough but there are plenty of places in monopose singlepart metals that I can't reach.



I also don't like the designs of some of the new stuff. I think that the old Exorcist was silly, and the new one is Rigoddamndiculous. I use the Forge World-style (not actually bought from FW) that actually look military. I like the old Immolators (not the original), but the new ones look goofy. The new Rhinos are nifty, however.

I've always thought the SoB were a little theatrical for my liking, as much as I like their infantry. The previous Immolator was a good design, the current one is a bullet magnet. Talk about modelling for a DISadvantage. I don't mind a small embellishment to make it look more Church-y and less Military-y but like you said, Riggoddamndiculous.

I've only got one non GW GW miniature that I bought on a whim from China. A resin SoB Heavy Bolter. I have no use for her, I only have other SoB Seraphim. It was the cheapest model available to check quality. While GW are keeping China under strict lawyership currently, they are going to lose this if they don't kill WH40K off first. The quality was decent, although it was a copy, not an innovation. But China will get there if the market is big enough.

I am not actively playing outside of Necromunda (and maybe a pickup game of Kill Team) so I'm not running the latest and greatest release but looking at the prices of current models I'm unlikely to simply replace my entire Marine army with Primaris. The models are cool but the money can be used elsewhere.

I'm a firm believer in the "penny from the masses vs pound from the few" mentality and I am cognizant of the fact model design and molds are not cheap, but neither a 3d Printers. Is the pound from the zero better than the penny from the many?


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 09:18:57


Post by: Albertorius


 Kanluwen wrote:
The 250k mark is a bit misleading--but it likely is factoring in that GW owns their own machines. There is no "renting the workforce" or anything of that nature--outside of terrain kits and Endless Spells(and purportedly they're tooling things up to be able to do those too).


...yeah, owning the machines usually reduces the costs, not increases it, as long as the expense of having the machines is justified. Amortization such and such, I think it's called.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Firstwetakedc wrote:
I know that this next opinion might be uncommon, but it dawned on me when I was assembling the new GW Sisters and Arco-Flagellants that I found the process very tedious. It's much easier to just glue the metal figure into the base, and then put on the plastic arm(s) equipped the way you want.

Oh, it's not just you... the amount of parts to make what amounts to monopose figures is kinda ridiculous.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 10:10:24


Post by: ValentineGames


Don't buy them then...

There are plenty of companies who sell high quality plastic kits for half of what GW costs.

And no I don't care about "BuT tHeY dOn'T sElL SPESH MAUREENS!!!"


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 10:37:39


Post by: stonehorse


Back when I was staff, we had access to 'Lead Weight' discount. The sprue was weighed against lead and that is the price we paid. I bought the old Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes for 6p a sprue. GW still made profit on that sprue. This is back when Dark Eldar were not a great selling line, so the sprues had still to cover the cost of the molds, design, etc.

GW have high prices, so high in fact that it has killed off one of their games (WFB). It didn't sell well enough to justify keeping, as people were not too eager to buy multiples of 10 plastic figures for £25 to have just one unit.

Also comparing GW's prices to the price of fags and booze is utterly ridiculous! Tobacco and alcohol are heavily taxed. That is some high calibre white knighting there!

I rarely buy GW, not because I can't afford it, bit because I don't think it is good value, my Yorkshire background prohibits me from throwing money away needlessly.


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 10:46:02


Post by: ValentineGames


 stonehorse wrote:

Also comparing GW's prices to the price of fags and booze is utterly ridiculous! Tobacco and alcohol are heavily taxed. That is some high calibre white knighting there!

At least it's not as bad as when they start comparing it to restoring classic cars.
Collecting a museum worth of jets.
Buying a yacht etc etc.

Heaven forbid to some people you compare plastic soldiers to plastic soldiers


GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 10:58:28


Post by: Jack Flask


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah. Just Capitalism.

GW are a large company, with lots of rent, taxes, bills and that to pay.

Let’s look at their actual profit margin, shall we? https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019-20-half-year-report.pdf

In 6 months, before licensing revenue? Income was £148.4m. Actual profit £48.5m.

So their actual profit margin is around 33%. And that’s with pretty stellar sales volumes. Why do sales volumes matter? Because your base operating costs tend to be relatively fixed, and you only see profit once those costs are met.

Here, we can reasonably infer that GW’s operating costs are around the £100,000,000 mark. Yes, lower sales would mean lesser stock production which would help reduce that figure, but not by a huge percentage.

So if there sales lowered, so would their overall profit margin. Is that daylight robbery? Or is just, y’know, how business and capitalism work in general?


Someone probably already said this in the News & Rumors thread but, with regards to the recent price rises, I do think there's a pretty likely explanation for it.
  • Slow moving stock.

  • A lot of the listed kits are either old (as GW said), non-essential (official terrain kits), one time purchases (army rule cards), or specialist games.

    And the current size of GWs product line, customer resistance to product discontinuation, and rate of catalog growth is leading them to an unreasonable situation for both warehousing and production.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 11:49:56


    Post by: Albertorius


     stonehorse wrote:
    Back when I was staff, we had access to 'Lead Weight' discount. The sprue was weighed against lead and that is the price we paid. I bought the old Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes for 6p a sprue. GW still made profit on that sprue. This is back when Dark Eldar were not a great selling line, so the sprues had still to cover the cost of the molds, design, etc.

    Yeah, I was working there by that time, too. It was glorious, because they also had the full parts catalogue. I got some kilos of lead that way back then, and the prices of the sprues were ridiculous ^^. Back when they closed the localized mail stores (Spain, in my case), I got a box chock full of Rhinos (they were almost brand new at the time), Preds, Chimeras and Russes, like... 10 of each, IIRC. I think I paid something like the equivalent of 70 euros for the whole box.

    I could fit inside that box.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 12:40:45


    Post by: Grimtuff


     stonehorse wrote:
    Back when I was staff, we had access to 'Lead Weight' discount. The sprue was weighed against lead and that is the price we paid. I bought the old Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes for 6p a sprue. GW still made profit on that sprue. This is back when Dark Eldar were not a great selling line, so the sprues had still to cover the cost of the molds, design, etc.


    That's how I got my Farsight army done. One day, GW took this away and staff started panic buying product on weight before it went forever. I had a few friends that worked there and ones of them stockpiled Crisis suits as they were 30 or 50p each (I forget which). A few years later and he's still sitting on this hoard and I buy 10 off of him for £5 each, which was still a reasonable price compared to the at least twice as much GW were charging at the time.

    My favourite story from the "pay by weight" era was regarding Epic 40k models. Some of them were so small they didn't even register on the scales so staff had to be charged 20p for them I believe as quote, "We had to charge you something!" as the manager that told my this story said.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 21:09:15


    Post by: Firstwetakedc


    Bdrone, I also agree about the characters. I'm so glad that I got the metal Canoness, plus other characters that I don't have a use for right now, but wanted anyway: the Imagifier, the Dialogus, and two Hospitalers (I thought that I lost one!).

    Regarding mecha kits, that's a good idea. A gaming group could buy inexpensive mechs, and play using the GW rules, out of spite, or simple practicality.

    I'm not replacing my Fox Box Sisters; I spent good time, money, and paint on those!


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 21:14:13


    Post by: Bdrone


    I get you, FirstwetakedC.

    My sisters are in metal, but I am no longer interested in them. but there was effort in the collection of them, just like your fox box sisters. im in no mood to update.

    i wish i knew what would be the most effective mecha models to make this concept i have work. im unsure about scaling for example. maybe the 1/100 scale, like some Zaku?


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/29 21:34:09


    Post by: BobtheInquisitor


    The 1/100 Destroid Monster kit from Macross (Robotech) is really cool and really affordable. Gribble it up with some Ravenwing Accessory Sprue bits, and you’ve got a titan.


    Edit: looks like it’s back ordered at hobbylink Japan. They seem to produce more every couple years because it was back ordered when I bought it, and ai got it a few months later, then back out of stock, then back in again...

    Meanwhile, there are other Destroid kits in the 1/100 or even 1/72 range that mostly look the part for an affordable price.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/30 00:51:46


    Post by: lord marcus


     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Elbows, how would he feel about using unofficial minis? Wargames Atlantic make passable IG minis, Shieldwolf makes close-enough Sisters, etc.. Reaper has a few Bones plastic knights that look suspiciously like Space Marines in need of guns and backpacks. Would he be interested in any of that?


    in the same vein, some people have an interest in 3d printer farms and would happily help out. i'm not saying thats me, and i don't mean to get into the 3d printing argument here, but it is a viable way to build an army for relatively little expense.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/30 01:06:23


    Post by: BobtheInquisitor


    That’s a good point. I’m in one of the BFG groups on Facebook, and 90% of posts are people showing 3D files and printed models similar to the official models. By the time GW decides to rerelease BFG (with a ridiculous price tag per model), 3D printing ships will be an inseparable part of the BFG experience.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/30 01:29:16


    Post by: Bdrone


     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    The 1/100 Destroid Monster kit from Macross (Robotech) is really cool and really affordable. Gribble it up with some Ravenwing Accessory Sprue bits, and you’ve got a titan.


    Edit: looks like it’s back ordered at hobbylink Japan. They seem to produce more every couple years because it was back ordered when I bought it, and ai got it a few months later, then back out of stock, then back in again...

    Meanwhile, there are other Destroid kits in the 1/100 or even 1/72 range that mostly look the part for an affordable price.


    oh that one looks pretty solid! you sure it scales well? to what knight? my biggest issue is figuring out what sizes to each class of Knight. it's such a world of mech and other scale minis, and the pricing blows me away by comparison.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/30 01:51:27


    Post by: BobtheInquisitor


    Actually, I’m not sure how well they scale. I may be thinking of the Dreadknight. Let me see if I can dig mine out and get some measurements. How big are the various GW knights, again?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Yeah, never mind. It’s too small. Sorry.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/30 04:44:05


    Post by: Bdrone


    Thank you for the help anyway. the search continues- pmed you, don't wanna fill this thread up with this.

    the things people will do when it all seems so much. i had to recognize im probably going well to far just to fit into this.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/30 18:15:15


    Post by: keas66


    The problem I have with GDW and their outrageous pricing is that their kits are not even any where near the quality of an expensive Meng/HobbyBoss/Ryefield/( Pick your modern Scale model Manufacturer of your choice) Kit which comes in for around 50 -100$ US . The sheer complexity and beauty of these kits ( in my case modern armor ) just makes the GDW kits look like crude facsimiles from the 70's . And now here they are charging 100$ for the latest Mechanicum Flyer model . Utterly ridiculous .


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/30 18:35:39


    Post by: ValentineGames


    Yeah but then people just say "you can't compare model kits to gaming pieces guffaw guffaw!!!"

    You literally cannot compare anything to GW as the defenders set up the goalposts on a treadmill.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/31 08:07:30


    Post by: Albertorius


    Not to speak of Bandai gunpla kits...


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/31 09:14:35


    Post by: Overread


    Doesn't Bandai have sales far in excess of what GW achieves? I


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/31 09:44:11


    Post by: kodos


    yes, GW is the underdog here, in sales, market value, model quality etc

    except for pricing, were GW is ahead of them


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/31 09:57:14


    Post by: Albertorius


     kodos wrote:
    yes, GW is the underdog here, in sales, market value, model quality etc

    except for pricing, were GW is ahead of them


    Like way, way, waaaay ahead.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/05/31 19:25:53


    Post by: Pacific


     keas66 wrote:
    The problem I have with GDW and their outrageous pricing is that their kits are not even any where near the quality of an expensive Meng/HobbyBoss/Ryefield/( Pick your modern Scale model Manufacturer of your choice) Kit which comes in for around 50 -100$ US . The sheer complexity and beauty of these kits ( in my case modern armor ) just makes the GDW kits look like crude facsimiles from the 70's . And now here they are charging 100$ for the latest Mechanicum Flyer model . Utterly ridiculous .


    That's because GW are the only ones (well, legally) selling miniatures for their own universes.

    Completely agree - you can get a Dragon kit of a WW2 with hundreds of pieces, photo-etched components, track links, and where the company has spent a lot of effort on researching some WW2 wreck that has been pulled out of a swamp in the Czech republic (that's actually a real thing that happened!), for less than the price of a relatively crude Land Raider or Rhino kit.

    If Dragon released that kit for £200 or decided to release one that only had 15 parts and looked like it was made in Minecraft, then consumers would just go to Tamiya, to Airfix or whomever and but their version of the kit instead. The competition drives the quality upwards and the cost down, to the point now where some of the kits coming out are absolutely ridiculous in terms of quality and the market has really come on in the past decade.

    GW have much more room in terms of price elasticity simply because if you want to buy a 'Land Raider' then you have to buy that specific model in the range - they can keep pushing onwards and upwards, up to the point that the customer can bear and sales at that increased cost are reduced to the point it becomes a downward curve.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/02 15:51:07


    Post by: meatybtz


     Pacific wrote:
     keas66 wrote:
    The problem I have with GDW and their outrageous pricing is that their kits are not even any where near the quality of an expensive Meng/HobbyBoss/Ryefield/( Pick your modern Scale model Manufacturer of your choice) Kit which comes in for around 50 -100$ US . The sheer complexity and beauty of these kits ( in my case modern armor ) just makes the GDW kits look like crude facsimiles from the 70's . And now here they are charging 100$ for the latest Mechanicum Flyer model . Utterly ridiculous .


    That's because GW are the only ones (well, legally) selling miniatures for their own universes.

    Completely agree - you can get a Dragon kit of a WW2 with hundreds of pieces, photo-etched components, track links, and where the company has spent a lot of effort on researching some WW2 wreck that has been pulled out of a swamp in the Czech republic (that's actually a real thing that happened!), for less than the price of a relatively crude Land Raider or Rhino kit.

    If Dragon released that kit for £200 or decided to release one that only had 15 parts and looked like it was made in Minecraft, then consumers would just go to Tamiya, to Airfix or whomever and but their version of the kit instead. The competition drives the quality upwards and the cost down, to the point now where some of the kits coming out are absolutely ridiculous in terms of quality and the market has really come on in the past decade.

    GW have much more room in terms of price elasticity simply because if you want to buy a 'Land Raider' then you have to buy that specific model in the range - they can keep pushing onwards and upwards, up to the point that the customer can bear and sales at that increased cost are reduced to the point it becomes a downward curve.


    That is indeed the fact. No competition, or, at least, poor competition. But there are some fantastic "in world" and "in style" 3d printables so that might change.. hopefully. There are some "not" Chimera and "not" this tank or that tank available from boutique resin crafters but I will be honest and say the STYLES don't match the universe, also, they are not much cheaper.

    We need people to sculpt in-universe style competition. Artel for instance does some great Banshees and Striking Scorpions, he also has some GREAT HQ choices for chaos, orks, and eldar. He is a good example, but they are still not "competition" with prices being high still, and even Artel's Banshees are not as to my liking as the new banshees by GW. Some of the IG replacements are pretty good.

    I have changed my stance on GW as of a week or so. Their price increases are now egregious, and their 9th and new books, new everything, is just more of the same. EDIT: Please don't advocate recasting on Dakka Dakka


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/02 16:10:16


    Post by: Blastaar


     Pacific wrote:
     keas66 wrote:
    The problem I have with GDW and their outrageous pricing is that their kits are not even any where near the quality of an expensive Meng/HobbyBoss/Ryefield/( Pick your modern Scale model Manufacturer of your choice) Kit which comes in for around 50 -100$ US . The sheer complexity and beauty of these kits ( in my case modern armor ) just makes the GDW kits look like crude facsimiles from the 70's . And now here they are charging 100$ for the latest Mechanicum Flyer model . Utterly ridiculous .


    That's because GW are the only ones (well, legally) selling miniatures for their own universes.

    Completely agree - you can get a Dragon kit of a WW2 with hundreds of pieces, photo-etched components, track links, and where the company has spent a lot of effort on researching some WW2 wreck that has been pulled out of a swamp in the Czech republic (that's actually a real thing that happened!), for less than the price of a relatively crude Land Raider or Rhino kit.

    If Dragon released that kit for £200 or decided to release one that only had 15 parts and looked like it was made in Minecraft, then consumers would just go to Tamiya, to Airfix or whomever and but their version of the kit instead. The competition drives the quality upwards and the cost down, to the point now where some of the kits coming out are absolutely ridiculous in terms of quality and the market has really come on in the past decade.

    GW have much more room in terms of price elasticity simply because if you want to buy a 'Land Raider' then you have to buy that specific model in the range - they can keep pushing onwards and upwards, up to the point that the customer can bear and sales at that increased cost are reduced to the point it becomes a downward curve.


    Sure, only GW kits are 40k or AOS, but only Corvus Belli sells models from Infinity, only Wyrd sells stuff from Malifaux or The Other Side, only Spiral Arm sells models from the Malestrom's Edge universe, only Bandai sells Gundams (with far more parts, complexity, and detail at a lower price than the best equivalents from GW) and so on.

    A player never "has" to purchase a model from a specific range to use its rules entry, either. (Yes, tournaments are a thing, and GW stores have their rules, but still.....)


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/02 19:56:20


    Post by: DarkBlack


     meatybtz wrote:
    We need people to sculpt in-universe style competition. Artel for instance does some great Banshees and Striking Scorpions, he also has some GREAT HQ choices for chaos, orks, and eldar. He is a good example, but they are still not "competition" with prices being high still, and even Artel's Banshees are not as to my liking as the new banshees by GW. Some of the IG replacements are pretty good.

    I have changed my stance on GW as of a week or so. Their price increases are now egregious, and their 9th and new books, new everything, is just more of the same. EDIT: Please don't advocate recasting on Dakka Dakka

    Or let GW charge what they want for their IP and release as many crappy rules as they feel people will buy. If you don't like it then find a game you like that is made by a company that acts in a way you find more agreeable.
    If you like 40k so much that you insist on staying then remember that GW made it and deserve the credit and support for all of their IP. The price they set is their prerogative, yours it what it is worth to you.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/02 21:09:18


    Post by: SamusDrake


    Yes, today's prices for Warhammer is eye-wateringly expensive. That said...there are some reasonable kits here and there, and with some additional skills one can get more out of those kits.

    Sculpting, even on a simple level, is one such skill. The Tyranid Hive Tyrant and Warriors kits come with plenty of left over pieces for an additional HQ character. However you go about it, the Swarmlord only requires a second upper body while the Warrior-Prime a lower body. Getting the most out of the plastic you have paid for is fair game.

    Some kits are actually good value. I'm very fond of the Harlequin Troupe kit. It contains an HQ character who would probably be worth as much as an Archon or Autarch at...£15, so you are left with just £10 for the five elite-melee players. The Starweaver kit is awesome too, as depending on how you build it, you get a spare one or two Harlequins to add to your troupe...

    Oh, the banshees. Sigh. The one kit I was looking forward to and they had to be stingy about it. In hindsight, they only needed to provide a sixth banshee with the option to be either a normal aspect or a Banshee Autarch on foot. Given that there is no official model for the wingless Autarch, its a missed opportunity. At least in that respect we could say that it would be £15 for the Autarch, with the remaining £17.50 for the squad of five banshees.

    GW does need to be praised for when they do something awesome; the new AT starter set is fantastic for £90, when it's contents are about £150-£165. We asked for an affordable set for beginners and they delivered. Fair's fair.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/04 00:25:14


    Post by: stratigo


     DarkBlack wrote:
     meatybtz wrote:
    We need people to sculpt in-universe style competition. Artel for instance does some great Banshees and Striking Scorpions, he also has some GREAT HQ choices for chaos, orks, and eldar. He is a good example, but they are still not "competition" with prices being high still, and even Artel's Banshees are not as to my liking as the new banshees by GW. Some of the IG replacements are pretty good.

    I have changed my stance on GW as of a week or so. Their price increases are now egregious, and their 9th and new books, new everything, is just more of the same. EDIT: Please don't advocate recasting on Dakka Dakka

    Or let GW charge what they want for their IP and release as many crappy rules as they feel people will buy. If you don't like it then find a game you like that is made by a company that acts in a way you find more agreeable.
    If you like 40k so much that you insist on staying then remember that GW made it and deserve the credit and support for all of their IP. The price they set is their prerogative, yours it what it is worth to you.


    The only thing really holding GW's monopoly is GW stores and GW sponsored events. Not the models. GW does not have a trademark on space imperial guard (which is why they are called astra militarum now). Or octogons. Or any number of things they flat lost to chapterhouse, and plenty of companies make models that don't legally infringe of GW's trademarks, but are utterly interchangeable with GW product. The main issue is that GW shops and supported venues will refuse you service if you try and use these models, thus defending their monopoly.



    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/04 00:36:58


    Post by: Overread


    Events isn't really true, GW doesn't really sponsor many and during the Kirby ear pulled all the way back from them almost entirely.

    Unless you're including local store events.

    I'm aware the US market has a lot more store reliance; in the UK (GW's home turf) most games happen as much in clubs as in stores and clubs have no fixed loyalty to a game system beyond what the gamers want. There's more than just the stores; however they do most certainly help in allowing GW to establish itself as the gateway to wargaming for the vast majority.


    I'd wager an overwhelming majority of gamers first game is a GW product. Perhaps with an exception for Historicals - though they tend to also be a very different age bracket too.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 08:27:35


    Post by: Leth


    I guess I just don’t get complaining about the price of a 100% unnecessary luxury good. There are tons of things that I would like but can’t afford. I don’t complain about their prices being too high.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 08:59:33


    Post by: Albertorius


     Leth wrote:
    I guess I just don’t get complaining about the price of a 100% unnecessary luxury good. There are tons of things that I would like but can’t afford. I don’t complain about their prices being too high.


    Many people don't get not complaining about something they don't like/don't feel is fair/don't feel is worth it.

    After all, if nobody complains, why would anything change?


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 09:02:14


    Post by: Overread


    It's more that complaining on a forum has no effect on GW. They don't monitor Dakka - in the Kirby era they avoided the internet and right now they've got their own online channels to monitor.

    Also "its too expensive" is rarely a good argument from customers when the company is unable to meet demand for product. Even if they accept that their prices are perhaps higher than they could be, the company is still unable to meet current demand so there's no benefit for them to lowering prices to increase sales. There's no sale room for them to expand into and any expansion would put their running costs up not down.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 09:29:04


    Post by: Albertorius


    Well, everything has to start somewhere. I've already cut a lot of my expenses on GW (I'm using it for Patreons now, about $70 each month, and I feel it's a much better investment for me), so however small amount that might be on the whole, it's something.

    Plus, venting is a thing, and sometimes people only want/need to vent a little. Surely we can all relate with that?


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 10:35:57


    Post by: kodos


     Overread wrote:

    Also "its too expensive" is rarely a good argument from customers when the company is unable to meet demand for product.

    this is the very nature of a luxury product

    it does not matter if you product costs 10, 100, 1000 or 1000000, if it is a luxury product you want the demand be higher than what you can deliver


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 11:07:07


    Post by: Albertorius


     kodos wrote:
     Overread wrote:

    Also "its too expensive" is rarely a good argument from customers when the company is unable to meet demand for product.

    this is the very nature of a luxury product

    it does not matter if you product costs 10, 100, 1000 or 1000000, if it is a luxury product you want the demand be higher than what you can deliver


    ...that's also true if it isn't a luxury product, you know. You never want unsold stock.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 16:16:44


    Post by: Leth


     Albertorius wrote:
     Leth wrote:
    I guess I just don’t get complaining about the price of a 100% unnecessary luxury good. There are tons of things that I would like but can’t afford. I don’t complain about their prices being too high.


    Many people don't get not complaining about something they don't like/don't feel is fair/don't feel is worth it.

    After all, if nobody complains, why would anything change?


    O sure, venting is perfectly reasonable. But after 20 years in the hobby it gets old. People have been complaining about GW prices since the dawn of time, everyone always says someone else will topple them, yet they are still here.

    I was 10 years old and I would save up all my money for a month, just to get 1 kit, or 4-5 new metal models and I was ecstatic. I had to scrimp and save and I still found it worth every penny(now my dad did buy he paints and hobby supplies, but I bought my own models unless it was a birthday). When I did Pokémon cards? I spent my money on that instead.

    I guess it seems weird that I constantly see people take a morality stance on GW pricing. Like they are an immoral company for charging the prices they do. If they were selling water I could see their point, but models?

    Often it feels like people have to justify to themselves the illegal things they are doing like buying recast or 3d printing. “GW is immoral, so it okay for me to do immoral things”. I say this as someone who bought tons of recast, I wanted to stay competitive but couldn’t afford it. I knew what I was doing was wrong, and never made moral excuses for it.

    GW keeps most of their manufacturing in house, supporting people in the UK, they pay all of their taxes and don’t use things like tax havens and shelters, they seem like a pretty moral company to me. They take care of their employees and seem to really be trying to improve and engage with the community.

    Does that mean I like the prices? Nope, I think the FW price changes really ticked me off, and what would have been an annual forgeworld purchase has not happen since. Do I wish things were cheaper so I could buy more? Yes, but I also recognize I got a 2-3k Dollars backlog on models as it is.



    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 16:26:24


    Post by: Azreal13



    Often it feels like people have to justify to themselves the illegal things they are doing like buying recast or 3d printing.


    Neither of these things is illegal.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 16:39:38


    Post by: Albertorius


     Leth wrote:
    Often it feels like people have to justify to themselves the illegal things they are doing like buying recast or 3d printing. “GW is immoral, so it okay for me to do immoral things”. I say this as someone who bought tons of recast, I wanted to stay competitive but couldn’t afford it. I knew what I was doing was wrong, and never made moral excuses for it.


    ...yeah, you'll need to unpack that one a bit for me. How is 3d printing illegal, exactly? Or immoral, for that matter?


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 16:57:46


    Post by: Overread


     Albertorius wrote:
     Leth wrote:
    Often it feels like people have to justify to themselves the illegal things they are doing like buying recast or 3d printing. “GW is immoral, so it okay for me to do immoral things”. I say this as someone who bought tons of recast, I wanted to stay competitive but couldn’t afford it. I knew what I was doing was wrong, and never made moral excuses for it.


    ...yeah, you'll need to unpack that one a bit for me. How is 3d printing illegal, exactly? Or immoral, for that matter?


    3D printing isn't illegal - 3D printing GW's copyright models is. Same as recasting. There's more than a few people out there who have made the files required to 3D print GW models.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 17:09:59


    Post by: Albertorius


    Right... and how about stuff made wholecloth by someone that follows a similar vibe? Would you consider that illegal as well? Do you believe GW have (for example) the rights for every representation of armored, let's just call them "space troopers" with bigass pauldrons?

    Copyright is given to a specific thing, trademarks to specific... well, trademarks. If someone designs something similar but does not use trademarks, sould you consider that illegal? If someone replicates exactly a GW tank, for example, and prints it for himself, would you consider that illegal? How about if he did it with cardboard, then? Would that be illegal, given it's for personal use?

    For example, these are all STL files of stuff from different Patreons. Which ones would you consider illegal, and why?








    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 17:16:11


    Post by: Azreal13


    The core of the argument for infringement for "similar" products (as emerged as one of the core pillars of GWs defence in CHS) is a reasonable person being "confused" by the third party item.

    By that logic, I'd contend on that basis that as long as an stl isn't a 3d scan and is a wholly original product of the sculptor, given that GW don't sell stls in any way, a reasonable person would not think they were purchasing a GW product by downloading a 3d file for free from thingiverse, and any claim for copyright by GW on a thing they didn't create that couldn't reasonably be confused for a thing they had would be challenging.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 17:16:40


    Post by: Overread


    Within the context of Leth's post he/she wasn't suggesting that ALL 3D printing was illegal nor that all styles of model are. There are clearly many legal companies making money selling alternative sculpts and designs. That's perfectly legal, no one is arguing against that.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 17:19:55


    Post by: Albertorius


     Overread wrote:
    Within the context of Leth's post he/she wasn't suggesting that ALL 3D printing was illegal nor that all styles of model are. There are clearly many legal companies making money selling alternative sculpts and designs. That's perfectly legal, no one is arguing against that.


    Sorry, I edited my post with some examples while you guys were answering >_>


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 17:22:33


    Post by: Overread


    Those examples are all (far as I can see) legal. Yes you can see its a Baneblade and several other designs are very similar. You can tell what they are "supposed to be" but at the same time they are unique designs.

    That they are made by a 3D printer; resin casting, metal casting or plastic casting doesn't really matter.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 17:23:11


    Post by: Albertorius


    Ok, thanks for clearing that up!


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/05 17:23:51


    Post by: Azreal13


    Yeah, but that's what 3D printing for the hobby is right now, I've been collecting files and printing for over a year, and I've yet to find anything which would be considered illegal (ie a total point for point reproduction of an existing model.)

    Pretty much everything that's out there is simply equivalent of the many perfectly legal third party manufacturers producing minis, just that you pay less and do the manufacturing yourself.

    Therefore including 3d printing in the conversation of "illegal" behaviour at all is flawed unless you believe (incorrectly) that third party manufacturers are also illegal.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/08 20:58:23


    Post by: Leth


    Yeah, how quickly people get defensive about it is kinda telling about what I was talking about.

    I didn’t say all 3D printing is illegal, have spent more at shapeways for upgrade kits than on the models itself.

    But when the intent is to pass it off as the official product, that is where the issue is.

    Personally I see nothing immoral about printing parts or upgrades, it’s when it’s the full model instead of contributing anything towards keeping the game going.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/08 21:02:07


    Post by: Grimtuff


     Leth wrote:
    Yeah, how quickly people get defensive about it is kinda telling about what I was talking about.

    I didn’t say all 3D printing is illegal, have spent more at shapeways for upgrade kits than on the models itself.


    No, you didn't say that at all...

     Leth wrote:


    Often it feels like people have to justify to themselves the illegal things they are doing like buying recast or 3d printing.


    Nope. Not at all. Keep back-pedalling though, I love when people weave a tangled web like this.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/08 21:17:24


    Post by: Leth


    Lol sure Thing buddy. It’s only tangled to you because You drew 5 extra lines when they walked a straight path.
    When talking with real people, unless they say all? Usual,y it’s safe to assume they don’t mean all, especially when the context of the conversation would imply otherwise.

    Plus side, I know someone else who has shown how much value they provide to a conversation and I can adjust accordingly.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/11 04:57:11


    Post by: amrogers3


    Does anyone have a spreadsheet that shows the 2020 price increases in USD?


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/11 09:56:54


    Post by: Shinji


     Leth wrote:


    But when the intent is to pass it off as the official product, that is where the issue is.


    Where is the line though? Considering how derivative their product is.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/11 10:28:09


    Post by: Turnip Jedi


    Shinji wrote:
     Leth wrote:


    But when the intent is to pass it off as the official product, that is where the issue is.


    Where is the line though? Considering how derivative their product is.


    I think broadly ( paraphrasing from the Chapterhouse (?)hub-bubb) its if a reasonable person would mistake it for a first party product, which in the case of gamers gets a bit muddy as besides very new players we can pretty much discern GW product from not GW so it would more or less have to be a 90% or higher duplicate (suspect law-talking folks could spin that out for days)

    For example out of all the pics Al posted on the last page only the Death Korp officer gets close and even the the mask is 'off'


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/11 18:18:42


    Post by: Ashitaka


    My 4 year old saw a White Dwarf magazine this morning and asked me what the games was (as we've recently started playing Heroquest)

    "That's Warhammer 40,000"

    "Does it cost 40,000 dollars?"

    "...Yes..."

    Out of the mouths of babes....


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/11 19:45:34


    Post by: Shinji


     Turnip Jedi wrote:
    Shinji wrote:
     Leth wrote:


    But when the intent is to pass it off as the official product, that is where the issue is.


    Where is the line though? Considering how derivative their product is.


    I think broadly ( paraphrasing from the Chapterhouse (?)hub-bubb) its if a reasonable person would mistake it for a first party product, which in the case of gamers gets a bit muddy as besides very new players we can pretty much discern GW product from not GW so it would more or less have to be a 90% or higher duplicate (suspect law-talking folks could spin that out for days)

    For example out of all the pics Al posted on the last page only the Death Korp officer gets close and even the the mask is 'off'


    Fair enough. Although I don't get the appeal anyway. If price is an issue find another system. If it's estetics that you're after then likewise I'd rather play something where using alternatives is not frowned upon.
    The last one is the main reason why I chose not to give them my business. Sticking only to one product line is just so terribly limiting.


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/11 20:01:00


    Post by: Turnip Jedi


    I think the appeal of 3d prints is really another hobby than happens to have toy soldier application as printers arent replicators and require all sorts of know wots and tinkering to get a decent result, and of course some folk just like having slightly different stuff (or the wyswig guns)


    GW and sticker shock. @ 2020/06/20 08:12:14


    Post by: Howard A Treesong


    Most people I know got into the game as a teenager, there were decent options, regiment boxes for £10 and the like. Yes it was long time ago but models have at doubled or tripled in price, or halved the contents of a box for the same money, etc. wages haven’t gone up in the same way.

    I get all the arguments about costs to GW and whatnot, but the reality is that as my career has developed I’ve had significantly more disposable income in real terms - Yet I just can’t justify GW prices, I look and shake my head. I can afford it, but I can’t justify it.

    £25 for a small blister with single figure (not even some huge monster) is ludicrous, golly and I thought the Batman Miniatures game was a lot. Funny thing is that some of the very same figures I bought over 20 years ago. I got my Abaddon in the great lead sale (how many you remember THAT eh? Which tells you how old that was, I remember That day I’d tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time). That ancient, undersized Abaddon was still on the website until fairly recently at many times the original price, and Abaddon was expensive even when first released.