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Sometimes when I am on GW's site I have to scroll up to the country flag at the top of the page to see if I am in the right country because that's got to be AUD, no way that number is USD.

Disappointed every time.

It's a free market and GW sets prices at what people will pay but hot damn, $70 ($75 with tax) for 3 plastic figures (at $25/figure) just doesn't make any sense. Even when these were metal and more expensive to make they were no where near what the prices are now. Back in the day, I could get a single mini for about what lunch would cost. A really good lunch. Now, prices are just laughable.

At least their shareholders are happy I guess.

Umm, ok?
Kinda confused what this is meant to be?
Also, metal minis are cheaper to cast than plastic.

Yeah, sticker shock is a thing.

EBay is a good way to get discounts. A bottle of paint stripper costs less than the difference.

Another thing to keep in mind is inflation. Yes, GW price hikes outstrip them, but that does not mean they aren’t there. I remember buying a box of 30 marines for $20. But that was back in the ‘80s. Last I checked, $20 then is more like $45 in today’s money. So about the same cost as a box of tac marines now. Sure, I’m only getting 10 in the box, but there is just a bit more detail and options on a modern mini then the classic RTB01 (as much as I love their retro-charm).

Metal as a material is more expensive than plastic. It's also more labour intensive to produce from the moulds compared to injection moulding plastic where, once the machine is setup; it can simply churn out castings.


That said the moulds for metal are vastly cheaper than those for injection moulded plastic. This is why you see resin and metal used by so many smaller firms and start up model companies. Even companies like Privateer Press don't use in-house plastics because the setup costs for the machines and moulds is so extremely expensive. Those that do are often using companies in China who already have the factories, however that comes with a rafter of their own issues from odd building designs (parting is a skill and I'm led to understand that those with the skill in models in China are more used to airfix type kits than miniature wargame models and certainly no where near the skill of some of the staff GW has); through to poor plastic compositions and quality control issues (even GW has had those with some of their overseas products such as terrain features).


GW can do plastics because they are big enough that the mass sale of models, even now for leaders (which were once all metal) can recoup the costs for investment in the moulds and allow for reinvestment and profit and shareholder payouts.

Let’s go back to 1997, when I was at college (small C, secondary education, not University).

At that time, the old multipart Chaos Warriors were available. £10 for a box of 12.

I remember, because I was in the pub, won a tenner on the fruit machine and bought a box.

But hey, my ciggies were also £2.50 for 20 Sovereign. And my Beer? Can’t remember exactly, but probs in the region of £1.60 a pint.

Now?

Chaos Warriors - £30 for 16.

Pint? £4.10

Ciggies? £11.15

Rent is also way above inflation. As is my commute. And my food, gas, electric etc.

It’s almost as if rate of inflation is kinda misleading, and not used to peg any price increase for anything. Hell, even my Council Tax goes up by several times the rate of inflation.

In short? Over time, prices rise. Shocker.

It's like that commencement speech - Always Wear Sunscreen. Prices will rise and you will look back and remember that when you were young, prices were fair.

Peg the price to another hobby/ vice - cigarettes were $2.50 when I was in HS. Now that same brand/pack is about $9.00 and change. Heck looking back just 10 years ago, my 2 BR/2BA flat was $825/ month. The same unit is listing for $1,485/ month now. I wouldn't say it's inflation, just the purchasing power parity you learned about in Econ 101.

I think for me it varies a lot. The big sticker shock item for me are vehicles these days - it just doesn't feel like once you've built a vehicle, that's an item that's worth that price.

For example, I play Dark Eldar in 40k and I play Idoneth Deepkin.

So I traded for my deepkin army, so it actually cost me ultimately an incredibly small amount of money. A while back I got the deal of a lifetime on some Vostroyans, ebayed some super old beat up 3rd ed era vehicles to support them, and wound up with nearly a 2k guard army for a total of like 200$. Then I swapped that for over 2k of Idoneth, which included 2 Akhelion Leviadons.

The leviadons are...i mean they're bigger than a Raider for sure. 1 more sprue on them. Same number of riders, but the turtle is bigger than the raider chassis - still believeable as a Raider, and I sometimes run my Idoneth as Exodites alongside my DE/harlequins.

The raider is 35 USD. The Leviadon is ONE HUNDRED FIFTEEN.

That's what I feel any time I look at the dinky little transport for admech - EIGHTY dollars? Or the new Lord of change who I kind of wa - ONE HUNDRED FORTY DOLLARS???

Basic infantry boxes have inflated from about 30$-35$ when I started, to 50$ now. That, I can basically ignore. 5$ a figure for a 10-man box, eh, it's a solid 30 hours of enjoyment painting them for me, I can deal.

Vehicles seem to have inflated from 35-50$ when I started to 80-100$ now, and I just can not fathom starting a heavy armored force today. Some factions characters, too, hoo boy are those marine players paying for being the company's cash cows. 40$ for a single power armored model, you poor slobs, at least I play the weeny factions where I still get to pay only 20-25 for a plastic character up from 15$ when I started for a metal one.

Now, the big distinction is, they do have more ways to get you in nowadays. When I started, there was the starter box, and that was it. Start collecting boxes let you buy figures for "The old days" prices and often, they're pretty much what you need to start building your army. If you want to start Daemons right now, for example, like 80% of the units in the codex are available in SC boxes, since all the mini hq characters are buildable from those kits you get in the SC's.

Many 40k factions have a similar deal, where you can get two SC boxes with some kind of online discount for about 150 bucks and generally get yourself in the vicinity of a 750-1k list just off that. Many horde armies are trickier, of course, but still you've got SC boxes like Genestealer cults that are just..never a bad thing to be buying. Ever. Just get more of those and you won't be sad.

It’s daylight robbery

Nah. Just Capitalism.

GW are a large company, with lots of rent, taxes, bills and that to pay.

Let’s look at their actual profit margin, shall we? https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019-20-half-year-report.pdf

In 6 months, before licensing revenue? Income was £148.4m. Actual profit £48.5m.

So their actual profit margin is around 33%. And that’s with pretty stellar sales volumes. Why do sales volumes matter? Because your base operating costs tend to be relatively fixed, and you only see profit once those costs are met.

Here, we can reasonably infer that GW’s operating costs are around the £100,000,000 mark. Yes, lower sales would mean lesser stock production which would help reduce that figure, but not by a huge percentage.

So if there sales lowered, so would their overall profit margin. Is that daylight robbery? Or is just, y’know, how business and capitalism work in general?

NobleGunner wrote:
It’s daylight robbery let’s be honest... the fanboys are afraid to admit it. Instead they put lipstick on and bend over for GW

Considering you're waiting on GW customer service and are clearly still buying GW products where do you peg yourself? Fanboy or Masochist?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Umm, ok?
Kinda confused what this is meant to be?
Also, metal minis are cheaper to cast than plastic.

Must've missed the part where GW is a small garage company...

There are lots of companies I prefer to support over GW these days. Most of them are orders of magnitude smaller...yet their prices are also a third of GW’s prices. Sure, I can justify that markup for a really nice squad with a ton of bits once or twice a year, but it hardly seems worth it in comparison to what I could be getting.

I haven't been on the forum for some time.. I was just thinking I hadn't seen one of these threads since I had returned!

What I will say is that there is a lot less of them.. used to be every week or so at least.

GW is bloody expensive. They are (for the most part) more expensive than their peers, which I think exacerbates the cost. It's possible to play many other games for a great deal less.

What I think has changed (and why I think you get less posts complaining about cost) is that the Games Workshop catalogue has expanded a great deal compared to 5-6 years ago. You're no longer restricted to 40k/WFB, and there is a great deal of fun to be had with the re-launched specialist games (BB, Necromunda etc.), the new boardgames too. So you can get involved in GW's universes without having to spend £300-400, with just a small box of minis being enough in some cases. Even AoS allows smaller forces than were practicable (at least as a playable game) with WHFB.

Of course White Dwarf and the format 40k rules (there have never been more miniatures on the tabletop with many of them big, expensive centre-pieces) push the 'top end' of cost (they are, after all, trying to get you to buy miniatures) - but look away from this, at most of the gaming community, forum blogs and the like, and you'll find much cheaper ways to play and actually realise that most people don't spend inordinate amount of money on this hobby - with some notable exceptions on this forum I am sure!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah. Just Capitalism.

GW are a large company, with lots of rent, taxes, bills and that to pay.

Let’s look at their actual profit margin, shall we? https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019-20-half-year-report.pdf

In 6 months, before licensing revenue? Income was £148.4m. Actual profit £48.5m.

So their actual profit margin is around 33%. And that’s with pretty stellar sales volumes. Why do sales volumes matter? Because your base operating costs tend to be relatively fixed, and you only see profit once those costs are met.

Here, we can reasonably infer that GW’s operating costs are around the £100,000,000 mark. Yes, lower sales would mean lesser stock production which would help reduce that figure, but not by a huge percentage.

So if there sales lowered, so would their overall profit margin. Is that daylight robbery? Or is just, y’know, how business and capitalism work in general?

Thanks!
Finally someone that understand how costing works.
33% profit margin is good and is about what most would say is the target one should have in manufacturing, at least according to the classes I took on the subject.
The molds that gw use to make the plastic figures cost more and more (and they were already 250k each when the rhino was introduced): the more complex the parts are, the more expensive the mold.
Also they invested heavily in injection system to increase production and that's many many millions of dollars of cost that need to be amortized.
Contrary to popular thinking making stuff in high quality plastic is EXPENSIVE!

Yeah! (quietly hides cheap-ass Mantic horde of plastic, WGF army of plastic, Grognard legion of plastic, entire plastic Dropzone combine arms mechanized battalion that cost less than Kharn , Medge plastics that cost a third of their agW equivalent even including shipping, Dropfleet Battlefleet full of plastic cruisers cheaper than space marines) Plastic is expensive! There is absolutely no way GW could sell it for a reasonable price.

I'll also say this, whilst we pay for it, I love that with GW we get:

battletomes/codex
artwork
lore
hobby videos and content most days of the week

All in heavy abundance. Many smaller companies might have some of those elements, but they are often far more marginal in their ability to support them.



I'll also point out that one thing greatly in GW's favour is that their expansions and investments are done without loans. This means there's huge repayments that HAVE to be made each year. Sure they have shareholders to repay ,but those can go up and down. Loans don't so easily go down in repayments and many a firm has come unstuck during economic downturns or tricky times. Not because they can't cover operating costs, but because they can't cover loans and operating costs. A lot of the big highstreet names we hear being killed off are often because they've huge debts over their heads. Those loans let them expand fast and become a highstreet name, but they can be a ticking time bomb.

GW has always reinvested into itself and the hobby really well. Even during the darkest Kirby days GW was still investing into itself (perhaps not as much as they are now and perhaps not always in the right direction). That's something to be grateful for - GW isn't being run like a gravy train into the ground. Nor are the loading the company up with huge debts to provide more for us

For what it's worth GW has great customer service, good rules support, and a ton of information on the kits on their site.

And they are made in the UK with what I assume are higher labor and wage standards than the majority of toys made in China.

They being said I never touch their $35 special characters. That's what the closet of bits is for!

Doctor-boom wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah. Just Capitalism.

GW are a large company, with lots of rent, taxes, bills and that to pay.

Let’s look at their actual profit margin, shall we? https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2019-20-half-year-report.pdf

In 6 months, before licensing revenue? Income was £148.4m. Actual profit £48.5m.

So their actual profit margin is around 33%. And that’s with pretty stellar sales volumes. Why do sales volumes matter? Because your base operating costs tend to be relatively fixed, and you only see profit once those costs are met.

Here, we can reasonably infer that GW’s operating costs are around the £100,000,000 mark. Yes, lower sales would mean lesser stock production which would help reduce that figure, but not by a huge percentage.

So if there sales lowered, so would their overall profit margin. Is that daylight robbery? Or is just, y’know, how business and capitalism work in general?

Thanks!
Finally someone that understand how costing works.
33% profit margin is good and is about what most would say is the target one should have in manufacturing, at least according to the classes I took on the subject.
The molds that gw use to make the plastic figures cost more and more (and they were already 250k each when the rhino was introduced): the more complex the parts are, the more expensive the mold.
Also they invested heavily in injection system to increase production and that's many many millions of dollars of cost that need to be amortized.
Contrary to popular thinking making stuff in high quality plastic is EXPENSIVE!

The above is spot on..

Is GW overpiced? Yes, to an extent, but the market supports it so.... yes.. and no.

However, I love it when people with no experience in business or manufacturing try to call GW too expensive when they don't understand that a single injection plate is 150-300K USD (sometimes even more! depending on complexity and GW products are COMPLEX as injection plastic comes). Engineering the plates is not cheap. It is not just something you throw in software and a computer auto-fits it for you. Vents, plastic flow, etc needs a skilled engineer who knows how it will work or you will blow 250K on a mold that fails to fill out properly. And, no, you cannot just cut additional channels into them like you do with resin to solve mold issues.. you make an ENTIRE NEW ONE.. for another 250K. Each sprue plate is a separate mold. Even to this day I still see most molds are operating in quads (4 plates-sprues) per machine.

On average, a new boxed set with all new models will be a several million dollar investment (labor, sculpting, prototype, layout, plates, additional machines if needed, art design, box design and printing, etc). Where does that money come from? Profit. It does not come from operating costs, it represents "reinvestment". New SoB? All told that army probably cost 5-10M USD to put into production, start to finish over several years.

For smaller companies like Privateer Press, a plastic model box represents a significant reinvestment of their profit and then they will need to sell X kits to break even. None of the plastic kits mentioned by Author are of the same detail level or complexity as the GW models. Yes, that makes an enormous difference in the costs. ENORMOUS. Also they are all non-inhouse injection. They are all using Chinese Companies and thus it costs them a lot less than GW.

Chinese prices are kept low because they love to use Slave Labor. Arbeit Macht Frei is above every entrance. Concentration Camps are used for labor for Apple and other overseas corps. Any time any company does in house and reduces Chineseium is applauded by me. But that is going to come with a premium price. Chinese sourced costs savings have enabled the Western World to hide the severe loss of Buy Power their currencies have suffered.

the_scotsman wrote:
*snip*
The raider is 35 USD. The Leviadon is ONE HUNDRED FIFTEEN.
*snip*

Something you have to account for is not price of materials. It's expected sales. GW can expect to sell many more Raiders than they do Leviadons, so they can afford to drop the price of that item. Volume of sales x per box cost will allow them to easily recoup costs spent on design, production, marketing, etc.

Leviadons not so much, especially considering not every IDK player buys one.

I also think their models are worth it. Buying the cheaper miniatures from other companies (looking at you Privateer Press) gets you cheaper looking models and barely a smidgen of the support that GW provides. I am pleasantly surprised when another company makes models nearly as well as GW.

PP/Mantic/FFG miniatures assemble poorly, the websites have 5 or fewer pictures of their models, no videos, and hardly any lore for the armies. I'm not even going to talk about regular updates, short stories, novels, a monthly publication...

If I get a bad cast of a model from any of those other companies they want you to return to the retailer and have the seller refund/replace/etc. I received a box from GW with a missing sprue and GW mailed me an entire new box no questions asked.

GW’s prices also allow smaller companies to exist.

Let’s take Mantic as a solid example. Setup by former GW Studio staff. And they make no apologies for undercutting GW’s prices. That was their plan from the get go. Trust me, I’ve had a personal tour of their premises, courtesy of a friend who is their main Resin Caster (one of just two people, if you can believe that!).

Now. There’s bugger all wrong with that plan, like, at all. Again, welcome to Capitalism. And many competitors are often lauded precisely because they’re cheaper than GW.

Now, if GW cut their prices by 25%? Right now, looking at their finances, they’d still be profitable - and they’ve enough meat on their bone to reduce their overheads if they so wished.

Where might that leave the like of Mantic? Their main selling point of being a source of cheaper models compatible with GW games. If it’s a matter of a couple of quid, the overall difference in quality matters far more. Could they have grown and survived in that environment?

What of the tiny wee ‘bloke is his shed’ types? They’re the point of origin for GW and indeed the whole wargames industry.

This post should not be taken as praise or justification of GW’s prices. I can afford them comfortably enough, and have a big enough gaming group to not really care either way. It’s just a statement of fact. GW’s pricing policy is such that it allows competitors a chance to get established.

Good timing!

As always, it's hard to be upset about pricing on goods that are quite certainly luxury goods.

I mean, bread and circuses only work if the ringmasters don’t price out the hoi polloi.

That's a depressingly large list!

That said considering there's Bone-reaper models on there I've feeling that its bigger than GW might have done without Corona. I've a feeling Corona losses are perhaps pushing them to raise some more than they might otherwise have left alone.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I also think their models are worth it. Buying the cheaper miniatures from other companies (looking at you Privateer Press) gets you cheaper looking models and barely a smidgen of the support that GW provides. I am pleasantly surprised when another company makes models nearly as well as GW.

PP/Mantic/FFG miniatures assemble poorly, the websites have 5 or fewer pictures of their models, no videos, and hardly any lore for the armies. I'm not even going to talk about regular updates, short stories, novels, a monthly publication...

If I get a bad cast of a model from any of those other companies they want you to return to the retailer and have the seller refund/replace/etc. I received a box from GW with a missing sprue and GW mailed me an entire new box no questions asked.

With respect, and this is off topic, but the pp lore actually has (or rather, had - I miss No Quarter - excellent magazine!) all that - is actually pretty deep and quite excellent, especially, if,you look at the RPG material the iron kingdoms have thousands of years of very intricate history. It's a very interesting setting. Plenty of their casters, like Caine or Magnus are extremely well developed with some very engaging story arcs over the time of the game. (On the other hand, there are the likes of sturm & drang who have never had a story!)The lore is a hidden gem, and I've often thought it's a shame that it is seemingly invisible to people.

Now, on topic, in terms of sculpts, I tend to agree with you. While I've never had an issue with pp, they've always fallen into the range of 'mostly adequate to decent, with some very good sculpts'. That said, I've seen very little from them over the last, say, three years or so that has made me go 'wow'. I think the last model from them that I loved was the minicrate totem huntress.it is a shame. I used to love their games. I've had worse experiences of models from other companies. I have little time for mantic, but have no grudges. I've been disappointed with most of my test of honour stuff from warlord.

I've not been disappointed with the quality of gw's models, or support. Especially over the last few years. Only company that has consistently matched model quality and support is Corvus belli and their infinity game. Got an order mucked up one time, let them know, and they basically replaced the whole,thing, and was able to get the original stuff they was mis sent as well.

On topic - gw are pricy. But this is a luxury hobby... so yeah... honestly, it's worth it to me. Love the modelling, love the painting, enjoy the lore etc. I understand the reasons why some stuff costs loads for one model etc., but yeah, since I enjoy it I'm happy to part with my moneys.

I have collected GW for a few decades now and no price shocks me... If I can not afford it I don't buy it.
One funny thing is, I randomly collect Heroclix to rebase to use in a Superhero RPG. I can not get myself to buy any single prepainted figure
for more than $15, but will turn around and buy a single GW figure for $30 without blinking an eye.

 Overread wrote:
That's a depressingly large list!

That said considering there's Bone-reaper models on there I've feeling that its bigger than GW might have done without Corona. I've a feeling Corona losses are perhaps pushing them to raise some more than they might otherwise have left alone.

Fortunately Mortarion isn't on the list.

Mortarion is being bought from my local brick and mortar store to provide some support when they reopen.


Or maybe the Rogue Trader box. Mortarion can be the present to my preferred online retailer.

I do so enjoy how instantly relevant this topic became. Let's see how the White Knights defend this...

 Lorek wrote:
As always, it's hard to be upset about pricing on goods that are quite certainly luxury goods.

No, it's pretty damned easy. I think you know that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I do so enjoy how instantly relevant this topic became. Let's see how the White Knights defend this...

The bingo card is already pretty full

- comparison to a product that's taxed to oblivion
- they're doing it to protect all the other mini producers
- making plastic models is expensive (and anyone else who does it cheaper isn't a Space Marine, or something.)
- reasons!