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Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

That’s a good point. I’m in one of the BFG groups on Facebook, and 90% of posts are people showing 3D files and printed models similar to the official models. By the time GW decides to rerelease BFG (with a ridiculous price tag per model), 3D printing ships will be an inseparable part of the BFG experience.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The 1/100 Destroid Monster kit from Macross (Robotech) is really cool and really affordable. Gribble it up with some Ravenwing Accessory Sprue bits, and you’ve got a titan.


Edit: looks like it’s back ordered at hobbylink Japan. They seem to produce more every couple years because it was back ordered when I bought it, and ai got it a few months later, then back out of stock, then back in again...

Meanwhile, there are other Destroid kits in the 1/100 or even 1/72 range that mostly look the part for an affordable price.


oh that one looks pretty solid! you sure it scales well? to what knight? my biggest issue is figuring out what sizes to each class of Knight. it's such a world of mech and other scale minis, and the pricing blows me away by comparison.

Army: none currently. 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Actually, I’m not sure how well they scale. I may be thinking of the Dreadknight. Let me see if I can dig mine out and get some measurements. How big are the various GW knights, again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, never mind. It’s too small. Sorry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/30 02:00:54


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Thank you for the help anyway. the search continues- pmed you, don't wanna fill this thread up with this.

the things people will do when it all seems so much. i had to recognize im probably going well to far just to fit into this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/30 04:44:30


Army: none currently. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




earth

The problem I have with GDW and their outrageous pricing is that their kits are not even any where near the quality of an expensive Meng/HobbyBoss/Ryefield/( Pick your modern Scale model Manufacturer of your choice) Kit which comes in for around 50 -100$ US . The sheer complexity and beauty of these kits ( in my case modern armor ) just makes the GDW kits look like crude facsimiles from the 70's . And now here they are charging 100$ for the latest Mechanicum Flyer model . Utterly ridiculous .
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter




england

Yeah but then people just say "you can't compare model kits to gaming pieces guffaw guffaw!!!"

You literally cannot compare anything to GW as the defenders set up the goalposts on a treadmill.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/30 18:36:42


 
   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






Not to speak of Bandai gunpla kits...
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Doesn't Bandai have sales far in excess of what GW achieves? I

   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper




Austria

yes, GW is the underdog here, in sales, market value, model quality etc

except for pricing, were GW is ahead of them

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






 kodos wrote:
yes, GW is the underdog here, in sales, market value, model quality etc

except for pricing, were GW is ahead of them


Like way, way, waaaay ahead.
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 keas66 wrote:
The problem I have with GDW and their outrageous pricing is that their kits are not even any where near the quality of an expensive Meng/HobbyBoss/Ryefield/( Pick your modern Scale model Manufacturer of your choice) Kit which comes in for around 50 -100$ US . The sheer complexity and beauty of these kits ( in my case modern armor ) just makes the GDW kits look like crude facsimiles from the 70's . And now here they are charging 100$ for the latest Mechanicum Flyer model . Utterly ridiculous .


That's because GW are the only ones (well, legally) selling miniatures for their own universes.

Completely agree - you can get a Dragon kit of a WW2 with hundreds of pieces, photo-etched components, track links, and where the company has spent a lot of effort on researching some WW2 wreck that has been pulled out of a swamp in the Czech republic (that's actually a real thing that happened!), for less than the price of a relatively crude Land Raider or Rhino kit.

If Dragon released that kit for £200 or decided to release one that only had 15 parts and looked like it was made in Minecraft, then consumers would just go to Tamiya, to Airfix or whomever and but their version of the kit instead. The competition drives the quality upwards and the cost down, to the point now where some of the kits coming out are absolutely ridiculous in terms of quality and the market has really come on in the past decade.

GW have much more room in terms of price elasticity simply because if you want to buy a 'Land Raider' then you have to buy that specific model in the range - they can keep pushing onwards and upwards, up to the point that the customer can bear and sales at that increased cost are reduced to the point it becomes a downward curve.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/31 19:26:33


Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
Excellent discussion forum & information collection for Epic and other small scale miniatures: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/index.php
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Pacific wrote:
 keas66 wrote:
The problem I have with GDW and their outrageous pricing is that their kits are not even any where near the quality of an expensive Meng/HobbyBoss/Ryefield/( Pick your modern Scale model Manufacturer of your choice) Kit which comes in for around 50 -100$ US . The sheer complexity and beauty of these kits ( in my case modern armor ) just makes the GDW kits look like crude facsimiles from the 70's . And now here they are charging 100$ for the latest Mechanicum Flyer model . Utterly ridiculous .


That's because GW are the only ones (well, legally) selling miniatures for their own universes.

Completely agree - you can get a Dragon kit of a WW2 with hundreds of pieces, photo-etched components, track links, and where the company has spent a lot of effort on researching some WW2 wreck that has been pulled out of a swamp in the Czech republic (that's actually a real thing that happened!), for less than the price of a relatively crude Land Raider or Rhino kit.

If Dragon released that kit for £200 or decided to release one that only had 15 parts and looked like it was made in Minecraft, then consumers would just go to Tamiya, to Airfix or whomever and but their version of the kit instead. The competition drives the quality upwards and the cost down, to the point now where some of the kits coming out are absolutely ridiculous in terms of quality and the market has really come on in the past decade.

GW have much more room in terms of price elasticity simply because if you want to buy a 'Land Raider' then you have to buy that specific model in the range - they can keep pushing onwards and upwards, up to the point that the customer can bear and sales at that increased cost are reduced to the point it becomes a downward curve.


That is indeed the fact. No competition, or, at least, poor competition. But there are some fantastic "in world" and "in style" 3d printables so that might change.. hopefully. There are some "not" Chimera and "not" this tank or that tank available from boutique resin crafters but I will be honest and say the STYLES don't match the universe, also, they are not much cheaper.

We need people to sculpt in-universe style competition. Artel for instance does some great Banshees and Striking Scorpions, he also has some GREAT HQ choices for chaos, orks, and eldar. He is a good example, but they are still not "competition" with prices being high still, and even Artel's Banshees are not as to my liking as the new banshees by GW. Some of the IG replacements are pretty good.

I have changed my stance on GW as of a week or so. Their price increases are now egregious, and their 9th and new books, new everything, is just more of the same. EDIT: Please don't advocate recasting on Dakka Dakka

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/02 16:26:02


Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Pacific wrote:
 keas66 wrote:
The problem I have with GDW and their outrageous pricing is that their kits are not even any where near the quality of an expensive Meng/HobbyBoss/Ryefield/( Pick your modern Scale model Manufacturer of your choice) Kit which comes in for around 50 -100$ US . The sheer complexity and beauty of these kits ( in my case modern armor ) just makes the GDW kits look like crude facsimiles from the 70's . And now here they are charging 100$ for the latest Mechanicum Flyer model . Utterly ridiculous .


That's because GW are the only ones (well, legally) selling miniatures for their own universes.

Completely agree - you can get a Dragon kit of a WW2 with hundreds of pieces, photo-etched components, track links, and where the company has spent a lot of effort on researching some WW2 wreck that has been pulled out of a swamp in the Czech republic (that's actually a real thing that happened!), for less than the price of a relatively crude Land Raider or Rhino kit.

If Dragon released that kit for £200 or decided to release one that only had 15 parts and looked like it was made in Minecraft, then consumers would just go to Tamiya, to Airfix or whomever and but their version of the kit instead. The competition drives the quality upwards and the cost down, to the point now where some of the kits coming out are absolutely ridiculous in terms of quality and the market has really come on in the past decade.

GW have much more room in terms of price elasticity simply because if you want to buy a 'Land Raider' then you have to buy that specific model in the range - they can keep pushing onwards and upwards, up to the point that the customer can bear and sales at that increased cost are reduced to the point it becomes a downward curve.


Sure, only GW kits are 40k or AOS, but only Corvus Belli sells models from Infinity, only Wyrd sells stuff from Malifaux or The Other Side, only Spiral Arm sells models from the Malestrom's Edge universe, only Bandai sells Gundams (with far more parts, complexity, and detail at a lower price than the best equivalents from GW) and so on.

A player never "has" to purchase a model from a specific range to use its rules entry, either. (Yes, tournaments are a thing, and GW stores have their rules, but still.....)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/06/02 16:13:02


 
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

 meatybtz wrote:
We need people to sculpt in-universe style competition. Artel for instance does some great Banshees and Striking Scorpions, he also has some GREAT HQ choices for chaos, orks, and eldar. He is a good example, but they are still not "competition" with prices being high still, and even Artel's Banshees are not as to my liking as the new banshees by GW. Some of the IG replacements are pretty good.

I have changed my stance on GW as of a week or so. Their price increases are now egregious, and their 9th and new books, new everything, is just more of the same. EDIT: Please don't advocate recasting on Dakka Dakka

Or let GW charge what they want for their IP and release as many crappy rules as they feel people will buy. If you don't like it then find a game you like that is made by a company that acts in a way you find more agreeable.
If you like 40k so much that you insist on staying then remember that GW made it and deserve the credit and support for all of their IP. The price they set is their prerogative, yours it what it is worth to you.

Nightstalkers
Dwarfs  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yes, today's prices for Warhammer is eye-wateringly expensive. That said...there are some reasonable kits here and there, and with some additional skills one can get more out of those kits.

Sculpting, even on a simple level, is one such skill. The Tyranid Hive Tyrant and Warriors kits come with plenty of left over pieces for an additional HQ character. However you go about it, the Swarmlord only requires a second upper body while the Warrior-Prime a lower body. Getting the most out of the plastic you have paid for is fair game.

Some kits are actually good value. I'm very fond of the Harlequin Troupe kit. It contains an HQ character who would probably be worth as much as an Archon or Autarch at...£15, so you are left with just £10 for the five elite-melee players. The Starweaver kit is awesome too, as depending on how you build it, you get a spare one or two Harlequins to add to your troupe...

Oh, the banshees. Sigh. The one kit I was looking forward to and they had to be stingy about it. In hindsight, they only needed to provide a sixth banshee with the option to be either a normal aspect or a Banshee Autarch on foot. Given that there is no official model for the wingless Autarch, its a missed opportunity. At least in that respect we could say that it would be £15 for the Autarch, with the remaining £17.50 for the squad of five banshees.

GW does need to be praised for when they do something awesome; the new AT starter set is fantastic for £90, when it's contents are about £150-£165. We asked for an affordable set for beginners and they delivered. Fair's fair.

Casual gamer, casual fun! 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 DarkBlack wrote:
 meatybtz wrote:
We need people to sculpt in-universe style competition. Artel for instance does some great Banshees and Striking Scorpions, he also has some GREAT HQ choices for chaos, orks, and eldar. He is a good example, but they are still not "competition" with prices being high still, and even Artel's Banshees are not as to my liking as the new banshees by GW. Some of the IG replacements are pretty good.

I have changed my stance on GW as of a week or so. Their price increases are now egregious, and their 9th and new books, new everything, is just more of the same. EDIT: Please don't advocate recasting on Dakka Dakka

Or let GW charge what they want for their IP and release as many crappy rules as they feel people will buy. If you don't like it then find a game you like that is made by a company that acts in a way you find more agreeable.
If you like 40k so much that you insist on staying then remember that GW made it and deserve the credit and support for all of their IP. The price they set is their prerogative, yours it what it is worth to you.


The only thing really holding GW's monopoly is GW stores and GW sponsored events. Not the models. GW does not have a trademark on space imperial guard (which is why they are called astra militarum now). Or octogons. Or any number of things they flat lost to chapterhouse, and plenty of companies make models that don't legally infringe of GW's trademarks, but are utterly interchangeable with GW product. The main issue is that GW shops and supported venues will refuse you service if you try and use these models, thus defending their monopoly.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Events isn't really true, GW doesn't really sponsor many and during the Kirby ear pulled all the way back from them almost entirely.

Unless you're including local store events.

I'm aware the US market has a lot more store reliance; in the UK (GW's home turf) most games happen as much in clubs as in stores and clubs have no fixed loyalty to a game system beyond what the gamers want. There's more than just the stores; however they do most certainly help in allowing GW to establish itself as the gateway to wargaming for the vast majority.


I'd wager an overwhelming majority of gamers first game is a GW product. Perhaps with an exception for Historicals - though they tend to also be a very different age bracket too.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

I guess I just don’t get complaining about the price of a 100% unnecessary luxury good. There are tons of things that I would like but can’t afford. I don’t complain about their prices being too high.

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






 Leth wrote:
I guess I just don’t get complaining about the price of a 100% unnecessary luxury good. There are tons of things that I would like but can’t afford. I don’t complain about their prices being too high.


Many people don't get not complaining about something they don't like/don't feel is fair/don't feel is worth it.

After all, if nobody complains, why would anything change?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

It's more that complaining on a forum has no effect on GW. They don't monitor Dakka - in the Kirby era they avoided the internet and right now they've got their own online channels to monitor.

Also "its too expensive" is rarely a good argument from customers when the company is unable to meet demand for product. Even if they accept that their prices are perhaps higher than they could be, the company is still unable to meet current demand so there's no benefit for them to lowering prices to increase sales. There's no sale room for them to expand into and any expansion would put their running costs up not down.

   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






Well, everything has to start somewhere. I've already cut a lot of my expenses on GW (I'm using it for Patreons now, about $70 each month, and I feel it's a much better investment for me), so however small amount that might be on the whole, it's something.

Plus, venting is a thing, and sometimes people only want/need to vent a little. Surely we can all relate with that?
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper




Austria

 Overread wrote:

Also "its too expensive" is rarely a good argument from customers when the company is unable to meet demand for product.

this is the very nature of a luxury product

it does not matter if you product costs 10, 100, 1000 or 1000000, if it is a luxury product you want the demand be higher than what you can deliver

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






 kodos wrote:
 Overread wrote:

Also "its too expensive" is rarely a good argument from customers when the company is unable to meet demand for product.

this is the very nature of a luxury product

it does not matter if you product costs 10, 100, 1000 or 1000000, if it is a luxury product you want the demand be higher than what you can deliver


...that's also true if it isn't a luxury product, you know. You never want unsold stock.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/05 11:07:24


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

 Albertorius wrote:
 Leth wrote:
I guess I just don’t get complaining about the price of a 100% unnecessary luxury good. There are tons of things that I would like but can’t afford. I don’t complain about their prices being too high.


Many people don't get not complaining about something they don't like/don't feel is fair/don't feel is worth it.

After all, if nobody complains, why would anything change?


O sure, venting is perfectly reasonable. But after 20 years in the hobby it gets old. People have been complaining about GW prices since the dawn of time, everyone always says someone else will topple them, yet they are still here.

I was 10 years old and I would save up all my money for a month, just to get 1 kit, or 4-5 new metal models and I was ecstatic. I had to scrimp and save and I still found it worth every penny(now my dad did buy he paints and hobby supplies, but I bought my own models unless it was a birthday). When I did Pokémon cards? I spent my money on that instead.

I guess it seems weird that I constantly see people take a morality stance on GW pricing. Like they are an immoral company for charging the prices they do. If they were selling water I could see their point, but models?

Often it feels like people have to justify to themselves the illegal things they are doing like buying recast or 3d printing. “GW is immoral, so it okay for me to do immoral things”. I say this as someone who bought tons of recast, I wanted to stay competitive but couldn’t afford it. I knew what I was doing was wrong, and never made moral excuses for it.

GW keeps most of their manufacturing in house, supporting people in the UK, they pay all of their taxes and don’t use things like tax havens and shelters, they seem like a pretty moral company to me. They take care of their employees and seem to really be trying to improve and engage with the community.

Does that mean I like the prices? Nope, I think the FW price changes really ticked me off, and what would have been an annual forgeworld purchase has not happen since. Do I wish things were cheaper so I could buy more? Yes, but I also recognize I got a 2-3k Dollars backlog on models as it is.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/05 16:22:22


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK


Often it feels like people have to justify to themselves the illegal things they are doing like buying recast or 3d printing.


Neither of these things is illegal.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






 Leth wrote:
Often it feels like people have to justify to themselves the illegal things they are doing like buying recast or 3d printing. “GW is immoral, so it okay for me to do immoral things”. I say this as someone who bought tons of recast, I wanted to stay competitive but couldn’t afford it. I knew what I was doing was wrong, and never made moral excuses for it.


...yeah, you'll need to unpack that one a bit for me. How is 3d printing illegal, exactly? Or immoral, for that matter?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/05 16:39:59


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

 Albertorius wrote:
 Leth wrote:
Often it feels like people have to justify to themselves the illegal things they are doing like buying recast or 3d printing. “GW is immoral, so it okay for me to do immoral things”. I say this as someone who bought tons of recast, I wanted to stay competitive but couldn’t afford it. I knew what I was doing was wrong, and never made moral excuses for it.


...yeah, you'll need to unpack that one a bit for me. How is 3d printing illegal, exactly? Or immoral, for that matter?


3D printing isn't illegal - 3D printing GW's copyright models is. Same as recasting. There's more than a few people out there who have made the files required to 3D print GW models.

   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






Right... and how about stuff made wholecloth by someone that follows a similar vibe? Would you consider that illegal as well? Do you believe GW have (for example) the rights for every representation of armored, let's just call them "space troopers" with bigass pauldrons?

Copyright is given to a specific thing, trademarks to specific... well, trademarks. If someone designs something similar but does not use trademarks, sould you consider that illegal? If someone replicates exactly a GW tank, for example, and prints it for himself, would you consider that illegal? How about if he did it with cardboard, then? Would that be illegal, given it's for personal use?

For example, these are all STL files of stuff from different Patreons. Which ones would you consider illegal, and why?






This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/05 17:20:49


 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

The core of the argument for infringement for "similar" products (as emerged as one of the core pillars of GWs defence in CHS) is a reasonable person being "confused" by the third party item.

By that logic, I'd contend on that basis that as long as an stl isn't a 3d scan and is a wholly original product of the sculptor, given that GW don't sell stls in any way, a reasonable person would not think they were purchasing a GW product by downloading a 3d file for free from thingiverse, and any claim for copyright by GW on a thing they didn't create that couldn't reasonably be confused for a thing they had would be challenging.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Within the context of Leth's post he/she wasn't suggesting that ALL 3D printing was illegal nor that all styles of model are. There are clearly many legal companies making money selling alternative sculpts and designs. That's perfectly legal, no one is arguing against that.

   
 
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