Everyone’s talking about their favourite points from the big preview so I thought I’d start a threat about the most boring parts
1. Assault intessesors are not very exciting are they? Especially when it probably means all the units will just be chain sword and bolt pistol because primaries don’t like options
2. All the codex will be revamped so probably no new armies I expect
They are going to have to pile on the special rules or have them be criminally undercosted to make assault intercessors worth it. Heavy bolt pistols and an extra CC attack are NOT worth giving up the bolt rifle. Reivers do this already and are wildly considered hot garbage. And they actually have some deployment/movement options.
That said they look very nice. I might do some arm swaps and mix in a box of regular intercessors to make for a more active running squad for autobolters.
I suspect we will get a new army sometime soon. All the traitor guard from Blackstone Fortress are crying out for a codex.
If they go a starter set route, I imagine the Assault Intercessors will just be monopose with gear presented, but hopefully, if they get a full kit, it will have power axes and mauls, maybe lightning claws if we are lucky. And jump packs if we are super lucky.
Nevelon wrote: They are going to have to pile on the special rules or have them be criminally undercosted to make assault intercessors worth it. Heavy bolt pistols and an extra CC attack are NOT worth giving up the bolt rifle. Reivers do this already and are wildly considered hot garbage. And they actually have some deployment/movement options.
That said they look very nice. I might do some arm swaps and mix in a box of regular intercessors to make for a more active running squad for autobolters.
I suspect we will get a new army sometime soon. All the traitor guard from Blackstone Fortress are crying out for a codex.
Exactly this, the models are nice but they just seem pretty underwhelming considering Reivers already do the same job but better.
Nevelon wrote: They are going to have to pile on the special rules or have them be criminally undercosted to make assault intercessors worth it. Heavy bolt pistols and an extra CC attack are NOT worth giving up the bolt rifle. Reivers do this already and are wildly considered hot garbage. And they actually have some deployment/movement options.
That said they look very nice. I might do some arm swaps and mix in a box of regular intercessors to make for a more active running squad for autobolters.
I suspect we will get a new army sometime soon. All the traitor guard from Blackstone Fortress are crying out for a codex.
Exactly this, the models are nice but they just seem pretty underwhelming considering Reivers already do the same job but better.
Reivers do the same job, but better, is not a sentence I thought I'd EVER hear.
Exactly this, the models are nice but they just seem pretty underwhelming considering Reivers already do the same job but better.
Reivers do the same job, but better, is not a sentence I thought I'd EVER hear.
I know, right?
Better gear on assault intercessor sarges will go a long way to making them better then reivers. Sure, you are going to have trouble getting into contact with the enemy, but at least the unit won’t just issue some limp slaps when it gets there. You can have the sarge put the hammer/powersword/whatever into the bad guys. In that context, they might be comparable units. One moves better, one hits harder.
The trick is assault vs. tactical intercessors. Intercessor sarges can already pick up the CC toys.
Some things they could do to help is issue grenades. Smoke/Shock grenades on the assaults could give them an edge. Bring back melta bombs for the sarge.
Special rules, like assault move and charge, or double tapping pistols, or something to give them an boost would help. This is 100% rules based, so we won’t be able to tell from the models. This could be baked into the datasheet, or a stratagem.
If you work hard enough, they might be semi-viable. But it’s going to be an uphill battle.
I'm sure theyll receive some special rule to make them an actual choice over normal intercessors.
Also, they only need two things to be much better than reivers:
-To be troops (I assume they'll be? Maybe not, because assault marines but they look too basic to be anything other tna troops)
-If the sargeants can take options, even a power fist, would put them leagues above Reivers in damage output.
So how do we think Assault Intercessors will be sold in 'full kit format'?
I'm, personally, leaning towards a Knight->Knight Warden situation. An additional sprue of chainsword+bolt pistol arms and 'gothic gubbins' is added to the standard Intercessor kit.
Kanluwen wrote: So how do we think Assault Intercessors will be sold in 'full kit format'?
I'm, personally, leaning towards a Knight->Knight Warden situation. An additional sprue of chainsword+bolt pistol arms and 'gothic gubbins' is added to the standard Intercessor kit.
The ones in the pic are running, more dynamic. I think they will be their own full kit.
I could see them getting a LOT of use with some simple buff to their charge on top of something like orbital deployment.
Imagine a very cost-effective unit that could reliably do the deepstrike charge, and even if it only tarpits tough units (rather than hurting or killing them) it will still see a LOT of play.
Everyone’s talking about their favourite points from the big preview so I thought I’d start a threat about the most boring parts
1. Assault intessesors are not very exciting are they? Especially when it probably means all the units will just be chain sword and bolt pistol because primaries don’t like options
They remind me of the Diablo Immortal announcement. 'Did you not want chainswords?' 'Did you not want melee primaris?' (they didn't actually say that, but pictures of foot guys with swords gave me the same vibe)
I mean, yeah, sure. People wanted that. But... not so much as footsloggers who have to wander to wherever the actual fight is. The sword and shield marines remind me of nothing so much as Primaris Lychguard, with all the problems that unit has in army that can't get them stuck in, despite teleportation shenanigans out the wazoo.
2. All the codex will be revamped so probably no new armies I expect
Eventually, but the codex revamp was a given anyway. They spent a lot of time and effort saying that the current books (and sadly the PA books) would be sticking around and valid. So they aren't going to rush through the codexes again at the same pace.
If I were GW, I'd definitely do a new army at this point. The new ones brought Aos back into the limelight in a way that its revised edition didn't.
We will have to see. Hypothetically GW has learned from assault marines and reivers, but unless their strength comes from a 9e rule change or a new super strat, I don't see chainsword melee intercessors being any good.
-Primaris sticking with 1 loadout means they aren't fixing the old assault marine problem by giving them power weapon options.
-Presumably these guys will be a FA slot option, which is all around worse unless you need for a brigade as no ob sec.
-No jump packs means less mobility unless buying an Impulsor, which admittedly isn't terrible since the Impulsor is good, but it jacks up the price.
It seems like all the same problems as assault marines, but without the slight saving grace of jump packs. If that assault marine cost a few point less than the tactical body variant, assault marines become a fine option to give you a cheap jump unit. But GW won't do that because a marine body (or intercessor body) is supposed to cost x amount as a floor then add on points for weapons. Assault guys can't cost less even if less useful.
leerm02 wrote: I could see them getting a LOT of use with some simple buff to their charge on top of something like orbital deployment.
Imagine a very cost-effective unit that could reliably do the deepstrike charge, and even if it only tarpits tough units (rather than hurting or killing them) it will still see a LOT of play.
They're going to be a terrible tarpit. Any melee unit that matters in 8e has a large number of multi-damage attacks and is going to be incredibly cost-effective at chopping up Primaris.
Nevelon wrote: They are going to have to pile on the special rules or have them be criminally undercosted to make assault intercessors worth it. Heavy bolt pistols and an extra CC attack are NOT worth giving up the bolt rifle. Reivers do this already and are wildly considered hot garbage. And they actually have some deployment/movement options.
That said they look very nice. I might do some arm swaps and mix in a box of regular intercessors to make for a more active running squad for autobolters.
I suspect we will get a new army sometime soon. All the traitor guard from Blackstone Fortress are crying out for a codex.
Exactly this, the models are nice but they just seem pretty underwhelming considering Reivers already do the same job but better.
Reivers aren't a Troop choice and can't be Vets and don't have any options for the Sarge.
Nevelon wrote: They are going to have to pile on the special rules or have them be criminally undercosted to make assault intercessors worth it. Heavy bolt pistols and an extra CC attack are NOT worth giving up the bolt rifle. Reivers do this already and are wildly considered hot garbage. And they actually have some deployment/movement options.
That said they look very nice. I might do some arm swaps and mix in a box of regular intercessors to make for a more active running squad for autobolters.
I suspect we will get a new army sometime soon. All the traitor guard from Blackstone Fortress are crying out for a codex.
Exactly this, the models are nice but they just seem pretty underwhelming considering Reivers already do the same job but better.
Reivers aren't a Troop choice and can't be Vets and don't have any options for the Sarge.
............. that's a good point I never thought of, these guys will have the intercessor keywork, which means they'll be eligable for the vetern intercessors strat.
wonder if GW'll do blood angels a solid and give them a death company assault intercessors datasheet
Everyone’s talking about their favourite points from the big preview so I thought I’d start a threat about the most boring parts
1. Assault intessesors are not very exciting are they? Especially when it probably means all the units will just be chain sword and bolt pistol because primaries don’t like options
Im sure BA players will never use them. They will have 3 base attacks, 4 with chainsword, 5 with savage echoes, 6 with shock assault, 7 with unleash rage, 8 with the sanguinor nearby. And thats just the number of attacks.
Everyone’s talking about their favourite points from the big preview so I thought I’d start a threat about the most boring parts
1. Assault intessesors are not very exciting are they? Especially when it probably means all the units will just be chain sword and bolt pistol because primaries don’t like options
Im sure BA players will never use them. They will have 3 base attacks, 4 with chainsword, 5 with savage echoes, 6 with shock assault, 7 with unleash rage, 8 with the sanguinor nearby. And thats just the number of attacks.
...And they'll all be 4/0/1 (or 4/-1/1 in assault doctrine) so a full squad with eight attacks apeice gets to kill slightly over two Bullgryns on the charge!
Also: Try delivering large squads of T4/2W/3+ models in the age of D2 spam.
Everyone’s talking about their favourite points from the big preview so I thought I’d start a threat about the most boring parts
1. Assault intessesors are not very exciting are they? Especially when it probably means all the units will just be chain sword and bolt pistol because primaries don’t like options
Im sure BA players will never use them. They will have 3 base attacks, 4 with chainsword, 5 with savage echoes, 6 with shock assault, 7 with unleash rage, 8 with the sanguinor nearby. And thats just the number of attacks.
...And they'll all be 4/0/1 (or 4/-1/1 in assault doctrine) so a full squad with eight attacks apeice gets to kill slightly over two Bullgryns on the charge!
well yeah, a buncha guys with chainswords aren't exactly an optimal weapon to use against Bullgryns. that's like arguing a lascanon will onyl kill 1 guardsman in a squad, thus lascanons suck. Marine chainsword units are almost always intended to be "bully units" being thrown at guardsman squads etc. obviously the points cost will be whats important here. if they're 20 PPM no one in their right mind will take them, but if they're 3 PPM they'll be the only troops you ever see in Marine lists.
Assuming no special rules (and 9th edition doesn't let us assault out of transports) I think they'll be of limited use, but even something like strat that allows them to charge after advancing, or something could make them reasonably solid. but yeah they won't be replacing intercessors in any of my lists.
BrianDavion wrote: ...well yeah, a buncha guys with chainswords aren't exactly an optimal weapon to use against Bullgryns. that's like arguing a lascanon will onyl kill 1 guardsman in a squad, thus lascanons suck. Marine chainsword units are almost always intended to be "bully units" being thrown at guardsman squads etc. obviously the points cost will be whats important here. if they're 20 PPM no one in their right mind will take them, but if they're 3 PPM they'll be the only troops you ever see in Marine lists.
Assuming no special rules (and 9th edition doesn't let us assault out of transports) I think they'll be of limited use, but even something like strat that allows them to charge after advancing, or something could make them reasonably solid. but yeah they won't be replacing intercessors in any of my lists.
So you're wasting all the time and energy to deliver a chaff-killing melee unit when your entire army is vastly oversupplied with chaff-killing guns (like the extra grenade launchers they keep sticking on all the Primaris vehicles)...given that 9e is also going to buff blasts against large squads?
BrianDavion wrote: ...well yeah, a buncha guys with chainswords aren't exactly an optimal weapon to use against Bullgryns. that's like arguing a lascanon will onyl kill 1 guardsman in a squad, thus lascanons suck. Marine chainsword units are almost always intended to be "bully units" being thrown at guardsman squads etc. obviously the points cost will be whats important here. if they're 20 PPM no one in their right mind will take them, but if they're 3 PPM they'll be the only troops you ever see in Marine lists.
Assuming no special rules (and 9th edition doesn't let us assault out of transports) I think they'll be of limited use, but even something like strat that allows them to charge after advancing, or something could make them reasonably solid. but yeah they won't be replacing intercessors in any of my lists.
So you're wasting all the time and energy to deliver a chaff-killing melee unit when your entire army is vastly oversupplied with chaff-killing guns (like the extra grenade launchers they keep sticking on all the Primaris vehicles)...given that 9e is also going to buff blasts against large squads?
we'll have to see, keep in mind I'm not saying they're going to be awesome, but I am saying that blood angels and similer chapters might occasionally be able to toss them in a list and have some fun with em
Fair. I'm just sitting here thinking that Assault Marines have spent most of 8e as a strong contender for the worst unit in the game, and 9e's got it's work cut out for it if it wants to make chainsword squads even pretend to be relevant.
AnomanderRake wrote: Fair. I'm just sitting here thinking that Assault Marines have spent most of 8e as a strong contender for the worst unit in the game, and 9e's got it's work cut out for it if it wants to make chainsword squads even pretend to be relevant.
on that I agree. the preview did also suggest some new rules on tactical reserves, depending on how those rules work, the units could be handy for marine armies with outflank options. If, for example, you can charge from outflank suddenly that opens up possiabilities for raven guard, space wolves and other marine armies with those options.
Nevelon wrote: They are going to have to pile on the special rules or have them be criminally undercosted to make assault intercessors worth it. Heavy bolt pistols and an extra CC attack are NOT worth giving up the bolt rifle. Reivers do this already and are wildly considered hot garbage. And they actually have some deployment/movement options.
That said they look very nice. I might do some arm swaps and mix in a box of regular intercessors to make for a more active running squad for autobolters.
I suspect we will get a new army sometime soon. All the traitor guard from Blackstone Fortress are crying out for a codex.
Exactly this, the models are nice but they just seem pretty underwhelming considering Reivers already do the same job but better.
You haven't seen the rules for Assault Intercessors...so how do you know Reivers will do it better?
Nevelon wrote: They are going to have to pile on the special rules or have them be criminally undercosted to make assault intercessors worth it. Heavy bolt pistols and an extra CC attack are NOT worth giving up the bolt rifle. Reivers do this already and are wildly considered hot garbage. And they actually have some deployment/movement options.
That said they look very nice. I might do some arm swaps and mix in a box of regular intercessors to make for a more active running squad for autobolters.
I suspect we will get a new army sometime soon. All the traitor guard from Blackstone Fortress are crying out for a codex.
Exactly this, the models are nice but they just seem pretty underwhelming considering Reivers already do the same job but better.
You haven't seen the rules for Assault Intercessors...so how do you know Reivers will do it better?
assault intercessors will be troops, which might make them preferable for that reason alone.
Stux wrote: Based on current expectations they should be awful.
However, it's possible 9e changes make them viable somehow. Chainswords getting some sort of buff for instance.
I mean if they're cheap eneugh they might not be too bad, toss a thunder hammer on the sergant, run em up the board. might make for a decent distraction carnifex.
Assuming its a straight swap, I think losing a reasonably long range gun for an extra attack is worse as it gives you lower flexibility on the table. On the other if these guys are going to run up the board and try to compete for mid-table objectives its potentially marginal either way.
Deadnight wrote: They're kinda cute and I'll be buying a squad for my Raptors. along with the chaplain and bikes.
Not too sold on the sword and shield guys. Waaay to flashy!
they're supposed to be flashy. look at their helmets. they're white, those are a vetern unit. possiably just some sort of vetern assault squad, but it's also possiable they're "vanilla honour guard"
From the markings in the pictures they're going to be fast attack, just like the bikes. Just like their firstborn equivalents, there's no way they're going to be troops.
That being said the whole detachment and CP system is being completely ripped out and replaced, apparently. I think you'll see much more single detachment lists, and that ObSec will be the main difference between being Troop or FA choices
The "Fast Attack" symbol on the model means they are close support according to the Codex Astartes. It does not mean they have to be in the Fast Attack slot in the detachments. Like when the Blood Angels used to be able to take Assault Squads as troops while having the same amount, background-wise, as other codex chapters. We will see what slot they take in detachments and what rules we have in due course. As they are on foot, I suspect that they will not be Fast Attack slot in detachments as they would be slow. But we will see.
nekooni wrote:From the markings in the pictures they're going to be fast attack, just like the bikes.
Not entirely reliable.
Incursors have the same markings, and they're Troops. Similarly, Suppressors have the heavy support markings, but are actually Fast Attack. Assault Centurions have the assault marine markings, but are Elites.
I'd be willing to bet that Assault Intercessors will be Troops.
Although they have assault markings, they also have squad number IV, which is usually a tactical/Intercessor squad number. So the role could be different.
Deadnight wrote: They're kinda cute and I'll be buying a squad for my Raptors. along with the chaplain and bikes.
Not too sold on the sword and shield guys. Waaay to flashy!
they're supposed to be flashy. look at their helmets. they're white, those are a vetern unit. possiably just some sort of vetern assault squad, but it's also possiable they're "vanilla honour guard"
I think they are the Primaris Company Command squad (i.e. Company Veterans), as they have veteran helmets with second company markings.
On warhammer community there are more new primaris models, bikers veterans and some sort of executioner that seems an odd addition but nice to have something actually new
mrFickle wrote: On warhammer community there are more new primaris models, bikers veterans and some sort of executioner that seems an odd addition but nice to have something actually new
It's all close-ups of things from the new box set.
Stux wrote: Based on current expectations they should be awful.
However, it's possible 9e changes make them viable somehow. Chainswords getting some sort of buff for instance.
That's my point...
You don't know what will change and what wont. It's an entirely new unit. They could have "Cawl Pattern NahRippers" which are S+2 Ap -1 D3 Damage. That would very much be a big improvement over what the little marines with their silly chainswords do now.
Orange Knight wrote: Lots of people here dismissing a unit without having seen it's rules or abilities?
Nostradamus all up in here.
I’ll admit there is a lot of guesswork going on.
But it’s educated.
The basic primaris body is well known, as it it’s price.
The points for heavy bolt pistols and chianswords are also know factors.
(If they do make Astartes Chainswords a different thing, this will toss a wrench into our thoughts)
They do not appear to have anthing like grave chutes, grapple guns, or jump packs. Without any indication on the models, you can’t just wish yourself deploymet options. They may get a stategem or a minor rule that can help. But training and willpower can only take you so far.
We do know what they are up against. And it is not shabby. Unless 9th is a MASSIVE shift towards CC and away from shooting, these guys have a uphill battle to just break even at mediocre.
Looking at them, if we assume everything breaks in their favor, we are still looking at a “meh” unit.
Now we could be surprised. We have just started with the leaks and rumors on 9th. But these guys have a long way to go if they want to see the table in anything other than a friendly list.
(where, full disclosure, they will find a place in mine, because I think they look cool)
I DO notice that the entire boxed set seems very Close ranged, what are the chances GW did this because 9th edition has been tweeked to make CQC better?
BrianDavion wrote: I DO notice that the entire boxed set seems very Close ranged, what are the chances GW did this because 9th edition has been tweeked to make CQC better?
If that was their intent, then kudos to them.
I have doubts about how effectively they'd accomplish it, though.
BrianDavion wrote: I DO notice that the entire boxed set seems very Close ranged, what are the chances GW did this because 9th edition has been tweeked to make CQC better?
If that was their intent, then kudos to them.
I have doubts about how effectively they'd accomplish it, though.
I love them dearly, but what GW tries to do and what they actually deliver are often at odds.
I suspect they are going to try to swing things back to CC, but are too timed in it, so we remain in a shooty edition.
I could (and hope) to be wrong. Too early to tell.
There's a lot of units in the game that aren't useful right now because they are footslogging melee. One of the best things GW could do with 9th is make these units more viable somehow. If that happens, then melee intercessors could have a role. The question is if they have a role compared to ranged intercessors, as those are already solid and only have 1 less attack.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: There's a lot of units in the game that aren't useful right now because they are footslogging melee. One of the best things GW could do with 9th is make these units more viable somehow. If that happens, then melee intercessors could have a role. The question is if they have a role compared to ranged intercessors, as those are already solid and only have 1 less attack.
That's something we don't know.
Astartes Chainswords could easily be AP-1, which is a big deal.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: There's a lot of units in the game that aren't useful right now because they are footslogging melee. One of the best things GW could do with 9th is make these units more viable somehow. If that happens, then melee intercessors could have a role. The question is if they have a role compared to ranged intercessors, as those are already solid and only have 1 less attack.
That's something we don't know.
Astartes Chainswords could easily be AP-1, which is a big deal.
You'd go from killing 0.9 Guardsmen per model to 1.1. Very big deal.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: There's a lot of units in the game that aren't useful right now because they are footslogging melee. One of the best things GW could do with 9th is make these units more viable somehow. If that happens, then melee intercessors could have a role. The question is if they have a role compared to ranged intercessors, as those are already solid and only have 1 less attack.
That's something we don't know.
Astartes Chainswords could easily be AP-1, which is a big deal.
They'd pretty much have to, or have some other significant special rule that ranged intercessors don't have.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: There's a lot of units in the game that aren't useful right now because they are footslogging melee. One of the best things GW could do with 9th is make these units more viable somehow. If that happens, then melee intercessors could have a role. The question is if they have a role compared to ranged intercessors, as those are already solid and only have 1 less attack.
That's something we don't know.
Astartes Chainswords could easily be AP-1, which is a big deal.
You'd go from killing 0.9 Guardsmen per model to 1.1. Very big deal.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: There's a lot of units in the game that aren't useful right now because they are footslogging melee. One of the best things GW could do with 9th is make these units more viable somehow. If that happens, then melee intercessors could have a role. The question is if they have a role compared to ranged intercessors, as those are already solid and only have 1 less attack.
That's something we don't know.
Astartes Chainswords could easily be AP-1, which is a big deal.
You'd go from killing 0.9 Guardsmen per model to 1.1. Very big deal.
You double damage against Terminators.
From 0.16 wounds inflicted per model to 0.33 wounds inflicted per model (six whole models required to kill one Terminator).
I'll go out on a limb and say that you still shouldn't be attacking Terminators with chainsword models.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: There's a lot of units in the game that aren't useful right now because they are footslogging melee. One of the best things GW could do with 9th is make these units more viable somehow. If that happens, then melee intercessors could have a role. The question is if they have a role compared to ranged intercessors, as those are already solid and only have 1 less attack.
That's something we don't know.
Astartes Chainswords could easily be AP-1, which is a big deal.
You'd go from killing 0.9 Guardsmen per model to 1.1. Very big deal.
You double damage against Terminators.
From 0.16 wounds inflicted per model to 0.33 wounds inflicted per model (six whole models required to kill one Terminator).
I'll go out on a limb and say that you still shouldn't be attacking Terminators with chainsword models.
The point is that it helps it rival the bolt rifle. Its not about the absolute amount of damage. That may still be far too low.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: ...The point is that it helps it rival the bolt rifle. Its not about the absolute amount of damage. That may still be far too low.
I don't think it does. If a bolt rifle and the melee attacks out of the chainsword squad do the same amount of damage the bolt rifle is still vastly superior since you get the 30" threat range, don't have to leave cover to use it, and don't give your opponent a free hit on you by using it.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: ...The point is that it helps it rival the bolt rifle. Its not about the absolute amount of damage. That may still be far too low.
I don't think it does. If a bolt rifle and the melee attacks out of the chainsword squad do the same amount of damage the bolt rifle is still vastly superior since you get the 30" threat range, don't have to leave cover to use it, and don't give your opponent a free hit on you by using it.
Yes. I was talking about this problem on the previous page. This is why the ap-1 matters for the chainsword, but still may not be enough.
These guys (and the rest of the new box set) make me wonder if primaris are ever going to get personal jump packs or if GW is trying to move marines away from those. These guys and the shield vets arent mobile without a transport. Bikes are mobile, but have drawbacks instead of the fly keyword. They have a new shield CC captain, but without that fly keyword he's still no smash captain...This seems like an obvious gap, so I wonder if it is intentional army design shift or are they just having issues making a cool jump pack design after the lukewarm response for the inceptors and suppressors?
I'm sure some rules changes in 9th will make assault interecessors viable. Like, what if sword weapons gain the parry ability in CC? Let's just wait and see.
Insectum7 wrote: Here's hoping the 'Astartes Chainsword' and any related improvement winds up being what Assault Marines are armed with.
Easy now they aren't Primaris chainswords
I know, that's why I'm optimistic. I'm not concerned about the Primaris releases, I just want to know if/how my traditional army plays.
I'm slightly worried.
There's 2 things I'm curious about. Firstly we all know all codexes are valid, and that blast weapons are gonna have max shots against hordes. So does that mean the rule book is going to errata every weapon in the game almost like a CA or just certain ones? (blast weapons and the chainsword so far)
Are they gonna take the time to fix powerful units/weak units? If the Astartes Chainsword is +1 S or even - 1 AP unless knives for reivers get that, there's not much incentive to take reivers. Unless they go all in on the LD debuff
Not only all of that but meele chapters will benefit for having actual meele troops that can accomplish something on meele, or at least having the option to have those will be usefull.
Galas wrote: Not only all of that but meele chapters will benefit for having actual meele troops that can accomplish something on meele, or at least having the option to have those will be usefull.
Indeed. Between the assault intercessors, sword-and-board veterans and the character with the sword, I'm getting a very 'black Templars' primaries feel.
The Assault Intercessors could have a rule that allows them to charge after advancing.
The new edition might allow them to outflank next to enemy units in later turns.
Very true, they said reserves would let us attack from multiple directions. Which feels a lot better for the health of the game.
The impression I got from listening to the stream (which could be wrong) was that later turns you had more options. My guess is that if you go into reserves, the first turn you have the option to come in (2 unless they rescind the 1st turn restriction we have now) would be in your deployment zone. Next turn, I’d expect table sides, and finally in the enemies backfield. This is me reading a lot into what they were saying, and I was doing other things while listening, so add salt.
Regardless, having to rely on being in reserves is not always the best option for a unit. Every turn you are chilling back at base is a turn you are not holding objectives or killing enemy units. It’s also a turn you are not eating fire and being turned into bloody chunks, so there are some trade offs. In games where objectives are scored at the end, being able to drop fresh boots last minute can be critical. In progressive scoring missions, you probably want them out dying for the Emperor and holding tight to the mcguffin early and often.
Nevelon wrote: They are going to have to pile on the special rules or have them be criminally undercosted to make assault intercessors worth it. Heavy bolt pistols and an extra CC attack are NOT worth giving up the bolt rifle. Reivers do this already and are wildly considered hot garbage. And they actually have some deployment/movement options.
Nevelon wrote: They are going to have to pile on the special rules or have them be criminally undercosted to make assault intercessors worth it. Heavy bolt pistols and an extra CC attack are NOT worth giving up the bolt rifle. Reivers do this already and are wildly considered hot garbage. And they actually have some deployment/movement options.
Maybe some changes to fallback rules?
That would help. But they would still be a low damage footslogging tarpit unit. Getting stuck in and staying there would let them get more milage from their pistols and swords.
There are a number of changes we could see to make these guys worth it. The problem IMHO, is that we’d need to see at least a few of them to let these guys see the table in a serious manner. One or two is not going to cut it, unless there are some pretty hard shifts in the core rules.
So far we have been told terrain rules have been completely changed.
We have also been told reserves have changed.
We have been told that points are being rebalanced due to core rules changes.
Arguably intercessors and more primaris troops are currently undercosted.
(Increases in the points of shooty primaris would give these guys half a chance of being able to find a niche)
I'm also interested to see just how long GW keep trying to pretend that vigilous rules should still be a thing as we are soon to be two codex's on from the codex it was designed to buff and some of the combos's it's allowing are beyond belief broken, add in more CP and it will only get more gamebreaking.
Isn’t 9th edition going to add outflank shenanigans? If you can assault from the board that would make swarming with cheap chainswords useful. It sounds like they’re going to entirely drop the idea of just charging the enemy head on.
Frankly I think bolter discipline plus all the AP stuff is silly on Space Marines. Got a whole Intercessor Ultra army and even just a superficial use of those rules makes a massive difference to the army.
Totalwar1402 wrote: Isn’t 9th edition going to add outflank shenanigans? If you can assault from the board that would make swarming with cheap chainswords useful. It sounds like they’re going to entirely drop the idea of just charging the enemy head on.
Frankly I think bolter discipline plus all the AP stuff is silly on Space Marines. Got a whole Intercessor Ultra army and even just a superficial use of those rules makes a massive difference to the army.
As a late game backfield bum rush, these guys might do OK. I keep forgetting about Doctrines, as I’ve not played a lot recently since they were FAQ’d to the mandatory shift. For me, I’ve got “get to Tac, stay there” locked in my brain.
Turn 3 you can be in assault doctrine and have these guys pop up somewhere. Hopefully someplace relevant. Will be also interesting to see if they keep the off table after turn3 = dead. Because turn 4 and later, all marines are in assault doc. And if they could backfield assault from reserves, that could be interesting.
But in assault doctrine, CC weapons and pistols get the extra AP. So they actually do have an edge over the shooty intercessors.
So they come in late, and bat clean up.
Would you be better off with more dakka earlier on in the game? Probably. Can other units do this better? Maybe.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: There's a lot of units in the game that aren't useful right now because they are footslogging melee. One of the best things GW could do with 9th is make these units more viable somehow. If that happens, then melee intercessors could have a role. The question is if they have a role compared to ranged intercessors, as those are already solid and only have 1 less attack.
That's something we don't know.
Astartes Chainswords could easily be AP-1, which is a big deal.
You'd go from killing 0.9 Guardsmen per model to 1.1. Very big deal.
You double damage against Terminators.
From 0.16 wounds inflicted per model to 0.33 wounds inflicted per model (six whole models required to kill one Terminator).
I'll go out on a limb and say that you still shouldn't be attacking Terminators with chainsword models.
-1 AP is the biggest AP jump in the game vs most targets. Sometimes you attack with what you have.
Ice_can wrote: So far we have been told terrain rules have been completely changed.
We have also been told reserves have changed.
We have been told that points are being rebalanced due to core rules changes.
Arguably intercessors and more primaris troops are currently undercosted.
(Increases in the points of shooty primaris would give these guys half a chance of being able to find a niche)
I'm also interested to see just how long GW keep trying to pretend that vigilous rules should still be a thing as we are soon to be two codex's on from the codex it was designed to buff and some of the combos's it's allowing are beyond belief broken, add in more CP and it will only get more gamebreaking.
LOL imagine trying to be serious saying Intecessors and other Primaris are undercosted instead of actually blaming the real problem of rules bloat.
bort wrote: These guys (and the rest of the new box set) make me wonder if primaris are ever going to get personal jump packs or if GW is trying to move marines away from those. These guys and the shield vets arent mobile without a transport. Bikes are mobile, but have drawbacks instead of the fly keyword. They have a new shield CC captain, but without that fly keyword he's still no smash captain...This seems like an obvious gap, so I wonder if it is intentional army design shift or are they just having issues making a cool jump pack design after the lukewarm response for the inceptors and suppressors?
It's not difficult. All they need is to stick the Mk.IV jump pack (the Sanguinary Guard jump pack without the wings) on any existing Primaris infantry. I've tried it and it looks great, it's got the cleaner more streamlined look of a Primaris tool, they've put slight derivatives of the Mk.IV helmets on a lot of the models already, and it's very obviously not the Mk.VII jump pack.
I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
Ice_can wrote: So far we have been told terrain rules have been completely changed.
We have also been told reserves have changed.
We have been told that points are being rebalanced due to core rules changes.
Arguably intercessors and more primaris troops are currently undercosted.
(Increases in the points of shooty primaris would give these guys half a chance of being able to find a niche)
I'm also interested to see just how long GW keep trying to pretend that vigilous rules should still be a thing as we are soon to be two codex's on from the codex it was designed to buff and some of the combos's it's allowing are beyond belief broken, add in more CP and it will only get more gamebreaking.
LOL imagine trying to be serious saying Intecessors and other Primaris are undercosted instead of actually blaming the real problem of rules bloat.
What other troop choice from any army has even half a change against iprimaris troops in a point for point engagement? Serious question as is they compressed the scale for every other troop way too much and its a mess down there.
alextroy wrote: I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
*gasps* Killing 1.7 Guardsmen on the charge? Amazing!
alextroy wrote: I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
*gasps* Killing 1.7 Guardsmen on the charge? Amazing!
alextroy wrote: I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
*gasps* Killing 1.7 Guardsmen on the charge? Amazing!
Two of these dudes kill also terminator though. With support
3 without.
Ice_can wrote: So far we have been told terrain rules have been completely changed.
We have also been told reserves have changed.
We have been told that points are being rebalanced due to core rules changes.
Arguably intercessors and more primaris troops are currently undercosted.
(Increases in the points of shooty primaris would give these guys half a chance of being able to find a niche)
I'm also interested to see just how long GW keep trying to pretend that vigilous rules should still be a thing as we are soon to be two codex's on from the codex it was designed to buff and some of the combos's it's allowing are beyond belief broken, add in more CP and it will only get more gamebreaking.
LOL imagine trying to be serious saying Intecessors and other Primaris are undercosted instead of actually blaming the real problem of rules bloat.
What other troop choice from any army has even half a change against iprimaris troops in a point for point engagement? Serious question as is they compressed the scale for every other troop way too much and its a mess down there.
Without doctrines, quite a few actually just not the troops that are already bad.
alextroy wrote: I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
*gasps* Killing 1.7 Guardsmen on the charge? Amazing!
Killing Guardsmen is not the metric of the game. Killing Space Marines is the metric. I wonder how many wounds they guys would do to a MEQ unit?
2 Attacks base +1 for Shock Assault +1 for Chainsword = 4 Attacks per model
5 Models including Sgt = 21 attacks for a minimum-sized unit
21 * 2/3 (WS 3+) * 1/2 (S 4 v T 4) * 2/3 (3+ Sv with AP -2) = 4.67 wounds
So a minimum unit of Assault Intercessors would just about wipe out a 5-model unit of mini-marines, producing more than twice the wounds of a unit of Intercessors in combat (1.89 W with only 17 assuming a sarge with Chainsword and also in Assault Doctrine). They also have 5 AP -2 Bolt Pistol attacks to make before the charge if they want.
So yes, they are not Bolt Rifle Intercessors, but we are making a lot of assumptions regarding rules and cost at this point. I guess we will have to see if GW has learned enough to realize the pistol/melee weapon isn't actually a balanced swap for a rifle.
Ice_can wrote: So far we have been told terrain rules have been completely changed.
We have also been told reserves have changed.
We have been told that points are being rebalanced due to core rules changes.
Arguably intercessors and more primaris troops are currently undercosted.
(Increases in the points of shooty primaris would give these guys half a chance of being able to find a niche)
I'm also interested to see just how long GW keep trying to pretend that vigilous rules should still be a thing as we are soon to be two codex's on from the codex it was designed to buff and some of the combos's it's allowing are beyond belief broken, add in more CP and it will only get more gamebreaking.
LOL imagine trying to be serious saying Intecessors and other Primaris are undercosted instead of actually blaming the real problem of rules bloat.
What other troop choice from any army has even half a change against iprimaris troops in a point for point engagement? Serious question as is they compressed the scale for every other troop way too much and its a mess down there.
Without doctrines, quite a few actually just not the troops that are already bad.
alextroy wrote: I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
*gasps* Killing 1.7 Guardsmen on the charge? Amazing!
That's almost a 50% return, which is really good.
But doctorines are a thing and original marines aren't out their breaking the game with doctrines.
You want to keep primaris and ditch rules that's one way to balance them, but it also kinda admits that with all the rules they have they are less points than they should be.
Ice_can wrote: So far we have been told terrain rules have been completely changed.
We have also been told reserves have changed.
We have been told that points are being rebalanced due to core rules changes.
Arguably intercessors and more primaris troops are currently undercosted.
(Increases in the points of shooty primaris would give these guys half a chance of being able to find a niche)
I'm also interested to see just how long GW keep trying to pretend that vigilous rules should still be a thing as we are soon to be two codex's on from the codex it was designed to buff and some of the combos's it's allowing are beyond belief broken, add in more CP and it will only get more gamebreaking.
LOL imagine trying to be serious saying Intecessors and other Primaris are undercosted instead of actually blaming the real problem of rules bloat.
What other troop choice from any army has even half a change against iprimaris troops in a point for point engagement? Serious question as is they compressed the scale for every other troop way too much and its a mess down there.
Without doctrines, quite a few actually just not the troops that are already bad.
alextroy wrote: I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
*gasps* Killing 1.7 Guardsmen on the charge? Amazing!
That's almost a 50% return, which is really good.
But doctorines are a thing and original marines aren't out their breaking the game with doctrines.
You want to keep primaris and ditch rules that's one way to balance them, but it also kinda admits that with all the rules they have they are less points than they should be.
They are rules that shouldn't have existed to begin with, though. My statement is fair.
alextroy wrote: I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
*gasps* Killing 1.7 Guardsmen on the charge? Amazing!
That's almost a 50% return, which is really good.
For a melee unit that needs to spend 2-3 turns crossing the table and is going to get wiped the turn after they charge because the other guy falls back and they take a battle cannon shell to the face?
alextroy wrote: I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
*gasps* Killing 1.7 Guardsmen on the charge? Amazing!
That's almost a 50% return, which is really good.
For a melee unit that needs to spend 2-3 turns crossing the table and is going to get wiped the turn after they charge because the other guy falls back and they take a battle cannon shell to the face?
To be fair I was just talking about the return, I made no mention of practicality!
alextroy wrote: I hadn't even considered how filthy AP -1 Chainswords would be in Assault Doctrine (aka -2 AP Chainswords). That's some pretty good killing power for a Primaris Marine on the charge.
*gasps* Killing 1.7 Guardsmen on the charge? Amazing!
That's almost a 50% return, which is really good.
For a melee unit that needs to spend 2-3 turns crossing the table and is going to get wiped the turn after they charge because the other guy falls back and they take a battle cannon shell to the face?
Gaurdsmen are not the optimal target for AP-1 Chainswords.
If they hit T2 (Tactical Doctrine) they kill, assuming 4 attacks on the charge (5 on the Sarge)...
21 attacks
14 hits
28/3 wounds
14/3 failed saves
144.67 points of Dark Reapers. If they're costed the same as regular Intercessors, that's more than 150% return.
Once you get a point of AP, you want to go after better armored models. 2+ to 3+ doubles damage, whereas 5+ to 6+ increasing damage by 25%.
The biggest "hole" in the Primaris Space Marine range has been close combat. As in, we have no dedicated close combat units. Reviers don't count. They are hot garbage in Elites, a section that has so many other good choices... anyways, Assault Intersessors.
2W models hitting on 3's with 3-4 attacks each? And heavy bolt pistols? In Troops? In the Assault Doctrine? Yes please! Especially with the sort of strategems we've seen regular Intersessors get (auto hit, fall back and assault again, etc. etc.). All assuming that they don't have "Primaris Chainswords" or some other special rules. Allowing the Sergeant to have a P-fist or T-hammer or P-sword... When I see how well that kind of Sergeant currently does in close combat, having him backed up with a dedicated close combat unit... oh yeah.
I've done okayish with reivers. And that's with the mythical BA elite slot. They absorb close range punishment far better than one wound assault choices in most cases.
Martel732 wrote: I've done okayish with reivers. And that's with the mythical BA elite slot. They absorb close range punishment far better than one wound assault choices in most cases.
Except why would anyone attempt to punish them? They have like no melee output or range output for the price.
Martel732 wrote: I've done okayish with reivers. And that's with the mythical BA elite slot. They absorb close range punishment far better than one wound assault choices in most cases.
Except why would anyone attempt to punish them? They have like no melee output or range output for the price.
And don't you have 2-Wound, 2+ save Sanguinary Guard?
Martel732 wrote: I've done okayish with reivers. And that's with the mythical BA elite slot. They absorb close range punishment far better than one wound assault choices in most cases.
Except why would anyone attempt to punish them? They have like no melee output or range output for the price.
And don't you have 2-Wound, 2+ save Sanguinary Guard?
Martel732 wrote: I've done okayish with reivers. And that's with the mythical BA elite slot. They absorb close range punishment far better than one wound assault choices in most cases.
Except why would anyone attempt to punish them? They have like no melee output or range output for the price.
And don't you have 2-Wound, 2+ save Sanguinary Guard?
Yes, but they are still weaker than reivers vs AP and mortals. And can't take phobos buffs.
Martel732 wrote: I've done okayish with reivers. And that's with the mythical BA elite slot. They absorb close range punishment far better than one wound assault choices in most cases.
Except why would anyone attempt to punish them? They have like no melee output or range output for the price.
Martel732 wrote: I've done okayish with reivers. And that's with the mythical BA elite slot. They absorb close range punishment far better than one wound assault choices in most cases.
Except why would anyone attempt to punish them? They have like no melee output or range output for the price.
And don't you have 2-Wound, 2+ save Sanguinary Guard?
Yes, but they are still weaker than reivers vs AP and mortals. And can't take phobos buffs.
Martel732 wrote: I've done okayish with reivers. And that's with the mythical BA elite slot. They absorb close range punishment far better than one wound assault choices in most cases.
Except why would anyone attempt to punish them? They have like no melee output or range output for the price.
Objectives? Threatening a tripoint?
There's better ways to hold objectives if that's the ultimate goal, and they're not fast enough to catch a unit for your tri-pointing.
along with the chaplain and bikes.
